The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's fa

[Gerald]

The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's favourite composer, Richard Wagner, in Germany.

Roberto Paternostro will conduct classical piece Siegfried Idyll on Tuesday at Bayreuth's Wagner festival.

It is rare for Israeli musicians to play the anti-Semitic composer's work, which was appropriated by the Nazis.

Paternostro said that while Wagner's ideology was "terrible", the aim was "to divide the man from his art".

An unofficial ban on Wagner was introduced in 1938 by the Palestine Orchestra - now the Israel Philharmonic - after Jews were attacked by the Nazis in Germany.



Musical director Paternostro said it had been "a very difficult and rocky path" but that "there wasn't a moment when I had any doubts about this project".

"I know that in Israel this isn't accepted," added Paternostro, who is Jewish and whose mother survived the holocaust.

"But many people have told me it's time we confront Wagner, especially those in the younger generation."

It was too soon for the orchestra to perform Wagner in Israel and they had not rehearsed the work there, he added.
Standing ovation

Hitler was a passionate admirer of the work of Wagner - who lived from 1813 to 1883 - as well as his theories on Germanic racial purity.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14272620


Note: 25 July 2011 Last updated at 08:27 GMT

[Takeda Shingen]

The Siegfried Iydll is a relatively minor piece. Also, Hitler took what he liked from Wagner (namely the anti-semitism) and left out the things that he found repugnant, like the anarchism of his youth and the loyalty to the status quo of his later years. In fact, the Wagner presented by the Nazis was, like much of what was presented as culturally 'German', a selectively skewed version of the man and his music.

In short, there is very little in the way of anti-semetism in Wagner's collective work; certainly no more than can be found in caricature of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice. The damnation of Richard Wagner was that he happened to be admired by Adolf Hitler.

[Gerald]

Yes, and so he used a maximum of Wagner, the music is quite heavy and dramatic ... and do not belong to my favorites.

[Takeda Shingen]

Whereas Richard Wagner is my favorite composer. I can appreciate the music without admiring the man.

[Gerald]

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

[TLAM Strike]

Well Wagner did inspire the name of Tom Cruse's plot to kill Hitler. :hmmm:

[frau kaleun]

I've tried to like Wagner, I really have. Well, to the extent that I listen to about as much of him as I can stand at any one time and then give up. Certain excerpts from his works played as strictly orchestral pieces, I like. But overall I'm in agreement with the quote about him that's usually attributed to Mark Twain: "He has wonderful moments, and terrible quarter hours." :haha:

My experience of Wagner usually goes something like this:

*listening to overture*

"Oh hey this sounds pretty good. I think I'm gonna like this one."

*30 minutes later*

"Oh dear god let it end..." :dead:

Kinda sad since I'm fond of the heldentenor voices... and Wagner certainly seems to be the premier showcase for them. I had the Ring cycle taped off PBS once with every intention of watching it... and I couldn't get through it.

[Stealth Hunter]

Yes, and so he used a maximum of Wagner, the music is quite heavy and dramatic ... and do not belong to my favorites.

The reason why Wagner's so dramatic and heavy is because of the themes he was dealing with in his music. Old Nordic and European legends and epic tales, etc. It's supposed to be dramatic. Equally this applies to his operas. Operas are supposed to be dramatic works of art.

Back on topic, the only thing Hitler's admiration of Wagner proves is that, despite his infamy as the leader of Nazi-Germany, he had great taste in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19UKnZitU88

[Skybird]

With Wagner it is like with Shakespeare for me. There are the pieces that are beautiful and fragile and wonderful like there are the quotes you use to give and remember. But then there is the rest, the burden of heavy-heavy "heaviness" and somewhat bombastic shelling by sound and word that makes me wish like Frau Kaleun: "When does it end?" Yes, both men were great names in their field of arts. But I like only a few pieces, fragments, of their works. But these are enough to make me respect them as said great names.

However, in Germany there will be discussions again as if the decision by the Israeli chamber orchestra needs any sanctionising or patronising by German "experts" on all kinds of matters.

Regarding Nordic epic tales and German sagas, I like them, I have read them often when being a boy and teen, and I still know them. Very... Klingon :D

[Gerald]

The reason why Wagner's so dramatic and heavy is because of the themes he was dealing with in his music. Old Nordic and European legends and epic tales, etc. It's supposed to be dramatic. Equally this applies to his operas. Operas are supposed to be dramatic works of art.

Back on topic, the only thing Hitler's admiration of Wagner proves is that, despite his infamy as the leader of Nazi-Germany, he had great taste in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19UKnZitU88 True, he used music as a tool for his fantasies.

[Oberon]

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

Same, Wagner is good but hard to follow all the way through, Rachmaninoff flows.
Ippolitov-Ivanov has some nice work too.


Where did our classical music thread go? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

3rd piano concert, Argerich, Berlin RSO, Chailly, 1982.

Completely kills me every time I listen to it. And I listen to it often. Not music - an explosion. Argerich did it best, playing like a supernova. Superb orchestra job also.

[Skybird]

Da war doch was...
:haha:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=127909&highlight=Rachmaninoff

[Feuer Frei!]

2007! 2 years before i found SUBSIM! :haha:

[Gerald]

Da war doch was...
:haha:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=127909&highlight=Rachmaninoff Sie müssen Ihre Themen seiner besseren nehmen, da Sie oben geschrieben, es ist eine wesentliche Voraussetzung, damit vielleicht Rachmaninoff Faden "lebendig" ;)

[Skybird]

Sie müssen Ihre Themen seiner besseren nehmen, da Sie oben geschrieben, es ist eine wesentliche Voraussetzung, damit vielleicht Rachmaninoff Faden "lebendig" ;)
I know I have asked you that repeatedly in the past, but: pardon, what have you said...? :DL I did not even get a starting spark for an idea. :D

[Skybird]

2007! 2 years before i found SUBSIM! :haha:
And probably ten thousand posts in the lead also. :D

[Gerald]

I know I have asked you that repeatedly in the past, but: pardon, what have you said...? :DL I did not even get a starting spark for an idea. :D I said if you make a post, so take care of it and refresh it, if there is a relevant interest,in public :shucks:

[Penguin]

Larry David also had this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nS66IvbvcI :D

[Gerald]

Yes,yes....Penguin :D

[ZeeWolf]

I like Wagner, Beethoven is my favorite. Although
the Israeli Chamber Orchestra my just be sick
of playing all those weeping ,wailing violin hits.
But what I am suspicious about is this my be just
another attempt at showing how "tolerant" they
[Israelis] are. And is a demonstration as to just
how far they are willing to go to keep those
reparations pouring in. That's my opinion.

ZeeWolf

[Gerald]

Now "happened" to be Wagner, and it could just as easily been this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWiNiLE_ck8

[the_tyrant]

Hitler ruined all the fun

He ruined a style of facial hair, a symbol, and now a composer

[Tribesman]

I am suspicious about is this my be just
another attempt at showing how "tolerant" they
[Israelis] are. And is a demonstration as to just
how far they are willing to go to keep those
reparations pouring in
Another Jewish conspiracy by Zeewolf eh??????:doh:

[frau kaleun]

Hitler ruined all the fun

He ruined a style of facial hair, a symbol, and now a composer

Wagner's anti-Semitic views were a matter of public record long before his work became widely associated with Hitler and the Third Reich. That association may be what taints his work for the public at large (insofar as the public at large cares about it), but certainly those whose "business" is classical music would be aware of it one way or the other. It wasn't exactly a secret before Hitler came along, is what I'm sayin.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Racism_and_antisemitism

Under a pseudonym in the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik, Wagner published the essay "Das Judenthum in der Musik" in 1850 (originally translated as "Judaism in Music", by which name it is still known, but better rendered as "Jewishness in Music.") The essay attacked Jewish contemporaries (and rivals) Felix Mendelssohn and Giacomo Meyerbeer, and accused Jews of being a harmful and alien element in German culture. Wagner stated the German people were repelled by Jews' alien appearance and behaviour: "with all our speaking and writing in favour of the Jews' emancipation, we always felt instinctively repelled by any actual, operative contact with them." He argued that because Jews had no connection to the German spirit, Jewish musicians were only capable of producing shallow and artificial music. They therefore composed music to achieve popularity and, thereby, financial success, as opposed to creating genuine works of art.

Wagner republished the pamphlet under his own name in 1869, with an extended introduction, leading to several public protests at the first performances of Die Meistersinger. He repeated similar views in later articles, such as "What is German?" (1878, but based on a draft written in the 1860s).

[Penguin]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Breaking News xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Osama announces $400 billion aid per second to Israel:

"After seeing what tolerant folks the Jews are" said the African-born Negro Barack Osama "I decided to give them big noses more dough"
The aid will be financed by tripling the taxes in the north-western JewSA.
Millions of globalized gay jewish commie-child****ers cheered to the news, as a spokesman said: "Now we don't have to fake the Holocaust anymore!"

Heil Stalin!
Penguin

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[frau kaleun]

:hmmm:

I keep thinking you should've worked "nerfherder" in there somehow.

[Dowly]

LMAO Penguin :haha:

:up:

[ZeeWolf]

:yawn:

ZeeWolf

[ZeeWolf]

http://www.youtube.com/user/TulaTorres#p/a/u/0/qcVFM4X7OSg

Ok Tula, liberal do gooder!

ZeeWolf

[Tchocky]

An orchestra I used to be part of, we played the Ring Cycle a few times. Kind of wore me out on Wagner:)

[Platapus]

Whereas Richard Wagner is my favorite composer. I can appreciate the music without admiring the man.

He is also one my my favourite composers from the Romantic era. :yep:

[Gerald]

He is also one my my favourite composers from the Romantic era. :yep: "Romantic era" so what time is now :hmmm:

[Tchocky]

"Romantic era" so what time is now :hmmm:

Musically speaking?

I guess post-Hammertime

[Gerald]

Musically speaking?

I guess post-Hammertime Like,U Can't Touch This :DL

[frau kaleun]

We are in the post-Beethoven era, which is everything following the Beethoven era, before which came the pre-Beethoven era. That's really all you need to know. :O:

[Gerald]

We are in the post-Beethoven era, which is everything following the Beethoven era, before which came the pre-Beethoven era. That's really all you need to know. :O: Hey....I suggested early on Sergei Rachmaninoff ... but I guess you low and sweat out the nicotine from your body, so I'm familiar :O:

[frau kaleun]

Oh, I've heard some of his stuff. And liked it. There are other composers and pieces I like, but...

You know how there are some people that you meet, and you spend some time with them here and there, and after a while you get to know and understand them and really like them?

But then every once in a while you meet someone for the very first time and after five minutes it's like you've known them all your life?

Beethoven, for me, was like example #2. Love at first listen. :D

Why I didn't start collecting more of his stuff earlier, I don't know... on the other hand you could spend a lifetime just on the symphonies. And I still haven't fully explored a couple of those yet.

[Tribesman]

Ok Tula, liberal do gooder!

So the holocaust denier finds himself unable to address the issue:yeah:
I bet that is a jewish conspiracy too:har::har::har::har::har:

[Gerald]

True, there is much to explore in this area, the music has a healing power for the soul, especially while driving, classical music are never wrong at this moment, :yep:

[frau kaleun]

True, there is much to explore in this area, the music has a healing power for the soul, especially while driving, classical music are never wrong at this moment, :yep:

A 9th Symphony a day keeps the doctor away. :D

[Gerald]

Schubert, nor is it wrong, :ping:

[frau kaleun]

Schubert, nor is it wrong, :ping:

Ah, I should have said THE 9th Symphony, lol. Which would be Beethoven's. :O:

Actually if I refer to any piece and do not specify a composer, and/or the composer is not already obvious within the context of the conversation, it's always a safe bet that I'm referring to Beethoven.

[Penguin]

We are in the post-Bach era

corrected it for you!
Oh you crazy juveniles with your new-fangled, short-living trends! :O:

And Tchaikovsky kicks Wagner's butt when talking about the Romantic era! :know:

[Gerald]

Ah, I should have said THE 9th Symphony, lol. Which would be Beethoven's. :O:

Actually if I refer to any piece and do not specify a composer, and/or the composer is not already obvious within the context of the conversation, it's always a safe bet that I'm referring to Beethoven. Good to know that if I talk to you and you're talking about music, and especially the number nine, it's "always" Beethoven involved :DL

[frau kaleun]

Good to know that if I talk to you and you're talking about music, and especially the number nine, it's "always" Beethoven involved :DL

Lol, just type 'ninth symphony' into Google and hit I'm Feeling Lucky. :yep:

[danasan]

corrected it for you!
Oh you crazy juveniles with your new-fangled, short-living trends! :O:

And Tchaikovsky kicks Wagner's butt when talking about the Romantic era! :know:

+1

Play the Violin Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCeYKfAOZI) best if played by David Oistrakh or the Piano Concerto No. 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M7M4UoqBpA) by Van Cliburn once and you are addicted, but make sure you get a DECCA or RCA recording

[Gerald]

Lol, just type 'ninth symphony' into Google and hit I'm Feeling Lucky. :yep: Ludwig Van Beethoven's Ninth Symphony :salute:

http://youtu.be/_-mvutiDRvQ

[frau kaleun]

Ludwig Van Beethoven's Ninth Symphony :salute:


Also seems to work for 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8. :D

Google gives me Tchaikovsky for 4 (fair enough) and Brahms for 1, but some would say that Brahm's first was really an attempt at Beethoven's tenth. :O:

[Gerald]

Also seems to work for 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8. :D

Google gives me Tchaikovsky for 4 (fair enough) and Brahms for 1, but some would say that Brahm's first was really an attempt at Beethoven's tenth. :O: Beethoven - Fur elise

http://youtu.be/LQTTFUtMSvQ He was far ahead of his time, is clearly :03:

[frau kaleun]

+1

Play the Violin Concerto or the Piano Concerto No. 1 once and you are addicted, but make sure you get a DECCA or RCA recording

I have a soft spot for Tchaikovsky for sentimental reasons... but can't really get into the violin concerto. Got it since it came as part of a two-fer with either the Mendelssohn or the Beethoven. Gave it a listen once or twice, but... meh. On the other hand maybe I just wasn't in the mood for it.

[Penguin]

So what do you guys and Frau think about the modern classics? For example I happen to find Barber's Adagio for strings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KylMqxLzNGo)extremely beautiful (yes, I'm the Platoon generation)

Also I like many of Philip Glass' stuff - but some people should beware: he is a "Jewish-Taoist-Hindu-Toltec-Buddhist" (sorry for the sidekick :smug:)

Is Glass a modern classic composer anyway, or a category for himself? Takeda, Takeda, Bueller? Anyone? :06:

[Gerald]

http://youtu.be/Yk-D5VtfzEA

[danasan]

I have a soft spot for Tchaikovsky for sentimental reasons... but can't really get into the violin concerto. Got it since it came as part of a two-fer with either the Mendelssohn or the Beethoven. Gave it a listen once or twice, but... meh. On the other hand maybe I just wasn't in the mood for it.

I edited my post with some links.

David Oistrakh = same religion as Philip Glass

Edit: To stay a bit on topic, as far as I am concerned, the only thing that does matter to me is whether the orchestra, the soloists, the conductor is good or not.

[Gerald]

http://youtu.be/oA0kXDMKiLg

[danasan]

So what do you guys and Frau think about the modern classics? For example I happen to find Barber's Adagio for strings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KylMqxLzNGo)extremely beautiful (yes, I'm the Platoon generation)

Also I like many of Philip Glass' stuff - but some people should beware: he is a "Jewish-Taoist-Hindu-Toltec-Buddhist" (sorry for the sidekick :smug:)

Is Glass a modern classic composer anyway, or a category for himself? Takeda, Takeda, Bueller? Anyone? :06:

Playing your linked piece makes me goosebumps after the first three notes.

Generally speaking for the composer Glass, I have to get used to him, can't fall in love within moments.

On topic again, call me liberal, but I can separate the person of Wagner from his work.

Same with Shakespeare, maybe his Merchant of Venice is a controversial one. With Shiloc asking for his pound of flesh.

But even in his period of time, there were some other anti-Semitic, me thinks.

[frau kaleun]

So what do you guys and Frau think about the modern classics?

I can't say because I haven't listened to much of it, at least knowingly and paying attention enough to form an opinion.

Well, I'm sure I've heard Glass here and there, but I've not heard anything that made me want to go in search of anything more.

I listen to the local classical music radio station a lot at work and in the car. A good deal of the time I don't know what I'm listening to, it could be modern stuff, I just don't know unless I recognize it and know the piece by name, or I catch the DJ saying what and who it is.

(A lot of the time when I recognize something, it's more like "hey it's the 'beef it's what's for dinner' song!'" :O: )

Sometimes I pull up the online playlist here at work, but then I think it's better not to know what/who they're playing as it removes any preconceptions I might have about whether I'm going to like something or not.

I can say, I *hate* the "atonal" stuff or whatever you call it. With a passion. I've had to turn stuff like that off more than once because it was setting my teeth on edge, lol. I had a CD out from the library that had some different things... Menuhin, I think, playing some sonatas. The Beethoven, fine, obviously. The Brahms, fine. Then there was some Bartok piece and lord knows I tried but - :nope: Can't remember what it was but I got through a few minutes and it didn't seem to be getting any "better" to my ears, so, no thank you I'll pass.

That "new age" music or whatever that's called these days.... *zzzzzzz*

Probably the most "modern" composer, time-wise, I'll say I've heard quite a bit and generally like is Sibelius. He stands out because several times I've heard something I really liked and then looked it up online and that's who they were playing.

Oh, and if it counts, Gershwin's stuff like "Rhapsody in Blue," that's something I love. But that's hardly modern any more, is it?

Given the Beethoven obsession, obviously my taste runs to an intersection of the Classical/Romantic styles. Too far one way to me is all form and no passion, too far the other way is the reverse... an exaggeration and generalization to be sure, but you get the idea. I have found that I actually prefer the pre-Classical stuff (Bach et. al.) to, say, Mozart and Haydn. So it was fun to learn that Beethoven in his late style, especially, actually went back and studied those earlier guys intensely and began to bring back some of the earlier stuff that had been discarded in the "pure" Classical style. It made sense to me, because I was hearing it all along and loving it and just hadn't made the connection.

BTW what most people refer to as Beethoven's Late Period, I refer to as the "$#&% You, I'm Beethoven"* period. Because sometimes it's like he just decided to let his freak flag fly and if you didn't like it? PFFFFFFT. :O: Oh and I guess I can say I like some "modern" music, surely the Große Fuge has to count. When that baby starts, you know the scheisse is about to get real.

Beethoven just hits the spot for me, what I want from pre-Classical and Classical styles and what I want from a "Romantic" style without going overboard in any direction IMO. There is a power in Beethoven combined with such sublime lyrical beauty, a combination that I have yet to find anywhere else. (Second movement of the 7th symphony would be perhaps the easiest example tho certainly not the only one.)

But I could talk all day about Herr Ludwig, and that wasn't your question. :D


*This is also the punchline of a nonexistent, episodic comedy sketch that plays in my head occasionally, called "Herr Beethoven Responds To His Critics." Yeah I'm that crazy. :O:

[danasan]

I can't say because I haven't listened to much of it, at least knowingly and paying attention enough to form an opinion.

snip...

I can say, I *hate* the "atonal" stuff or whatever you call it. With a passion. I've had to turn stuff like that off more than once because it was setting my teeth on edge, lol. I had a CD out from the library that had some different things... Menuhin, I think, playing some sonatas. The Beethoven, fine, obviously. The Brahms, fine. Then there was some Bartok piece and lord knows I tried but - :nope: Can't remember what it was but I got through a few minutes and it didn't seem to be getting any "better" to my ears, so, no thank you I'll pass.

snip

Oh, and if it counts, Gershwin's stuff like "Rhapsody in Blue," that's something I love. But that's hardly modern any more, is it?

snip

:O:

I'd still say Gershwin belongs to the modern composers. May I suggest Porgy and Bess as well?

To give you the rest FK, try some Stravinsky: maybe Feuervogel (Firebird?), Petrushka or Sacre du Printemps. That is something 'atonal' only lovers can love (like I do).

[frau kaleun]

I'd still say Gershwin belongs to the modern composers. May I suggest Porgy and Bess as well?

To give you the rest FK, try some Stravinsky: maybe Feuervogel (Firebird?), Petrushka or Sacre du Printemps. That is something 'atonal' only lovers can love (like I do).

Oh, undoubtedly there is so much out there that I might like but have yet to hear. I try to get things from the library, and have several things requested on inter-library loan... but the wait is long. Fortunately there's YouTube and a lot is available there.

But I find that my patience for sitting and listening to something for long periods of time just to "decide" whether or not I like it, is very minimal. If it doesn't grab me quickly enough I'm gone. And some people will tell me, "well, you have to understand this and that and what he was trying to do..."

Okay but to me that's like someone saying "if you just let me explain the joke, you'll see that it's funny." Sorry, no. :DL Either I laugh at the joke or I don't. If I didn't laugh, it wasn't funny to me. And with music, the first thing is - I have to want to listen to it, and - with classical music especially - keep listening to it. If it starts playing and I go "meh" or "ugh," all the music theory & history in the world is not gonna help. I may understand it better, but it still won't make my playlist. Time may change that, so I do try to come back to things that I think are worth a second chance every now and again.

[Gerald]

If you are flexible in their listening, and responsive, there is much to hear :yep:

[Gerald]

http://youtu.be/XMbvcp480Y4

[Takeda Shingen]

I am impressed that we are having a discussion about academic music. Kudos you all. :up:

[Gerald]

I also, :DL

[Penguin]

I am impressed that we are having a discussion about academic music. Kudos you all. :up:

:up:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5721/bach.jpg

[frau kaleun]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6006/5988416011_2e2d1a2a0f_b.jpg

[_dgn_]

Well ! I'm trying to understand the problem (sorry for my poor english).

So Wagner's music was banished in Israel ? Why ? Apparently Wagner was nazi. Difficult to believe : Wagner died in 1883, Hitler was born in 1889. So improbable meetings between them ! In this case, another proof : Adolph Hitler liked Wagner's music. Thus, Wagner was nazi. So Wagner's music was banished in Isreal, same manner that jewish composers' music was banished in the national-socialist Germany. Reprisals, apparently.

A simple reflection : A.Hitler liked vegetarian cook. So is vegetarian cook also prohibited in Israel ?

And what about Nietzsche's philisophy ? I think that it must be also banished in Isreal. Why ? Because Nietzsche was also nazi. Difficult to believe : he died in 1900 (a little early to become member of the NSDAP, founded in 1920). Let us admit ! In this case, another proof : his philosophy was liked by the national-socialist Germany. But his thought was deformed by National-Socialism ! Well, a third proof : the philosopher Martin Heidegger (born in 1889. 1889 ? It's very suspect : please, read above) wrote many eulogistic books about Nietzsche and he was member of the NSDAP. Thus Nietzsche was nazi.

However he didn't like Wagner's music. No indulgence in this case ?

Seriously, this concert takes (took) place in a particular town in Germany : Bayreuth. Initially known for the Margravine Wilhelmina's (sister of Frederick the Great) baroque "Opera House", Bayreuth is now the temple of Wagnerianism with its Festival, sung (and played) in the red brick "Festspielhaus", built by the Maestro himself.

A concert in Bayreuth, during the Festival, without any piece from the Maestro. Unthinkable ! Like a Baroque (or classic) concert in the Thomaskirche (St. Thomas Church) in Leizipg, without any piece from of the Master of the place, the Cantor J.S.Bach ...

And the Israel Chamber Orchestra played, not inside the "Festspielhaus", not for the Festival, not for Wagner. It was invited for celebrating Liszt's 200th birthday. Why Bayreuth ? Because Liszt died in this town. Why ? Because Liszt lived in Bayreuth ? Why ? His daughter Cosima lived in this town. Why ? Because she married Richard Wagner.
Oddly, nobody said that Liszt was nazi. However his daughter Cosima married a Nazi. However his grandson Siegfried (not really a catholic name !) married a (english !) Nazi woman, Winifred. Nazi, Winifred ? Yes, she was Hitler's friend, since 1923. She even gave to Hitler paper, on which he wrote "Mein Kampf" as prisoner ...

Yes : in spite of all that, Liszt is not considered as "nazi". He has some chance. Why ? Because these journalists (who generally like to create scandals and discusses) are often uncultivated. They don't know that Nazis liked Liszt's music. Really ? It was the piece played at the end of the German "Sondermeldung" (Special messages), or named "Russland-Fanfare" (Fanfare of Russia) : it's really easy to recognize the symphonic poem "Les Préludes".

And what did play the Orchestra ? A sulfurous piece ? A thundering melody, like "Les Préludes" ? The "Ride of the Valkyries" ? No (sorry for you, frau kaleun !) : only a small (almost private) piece, named "Siegfried Idyll", composed by Wagner for his wife, when their son Siegfried was born ...

In fact, only courtesy, quite simply !

Finally, a concert of the Israel Chamber Orchestra playing in GERMANY some Wagner's piece of music don't mean that the things changed. Playing or broadcasting Wagner's music is still prohibited in ISRAEL.

I ingenuously thought that the WWII was over. Apparently, not !

Cheers.

[MH]

Finally, a concert of the Israel Chamber Orchestra playing in GERMANY some Wagner's piece of music don't mean that the things changed. Playing or broadcasting Wagner's music is still prohibited in ISRAEL.

Cheers.

Who claim that Wagner was a nazi?

In Israel its a law since 1948:hmmm:
Maybe the law is irrelevant in 2011 but it has no effect on you so don't take it personally.
I don't care much about Wagner but as long as there are holocaust survivors who simply cant stand the thought of allowing Wagner in Israel I respect that.
It probably will change in near future if enough people will mind or care about the issue.

Did you know that Beatles where banned from visiting Israel in 1965.
Now...that's stupid and cultural loss.:damn:

[frau kaleun]

Well ! I'm trying to understand the problem (sorry for my poor english).

So Wagner's music was banished in Israel ? Why ? Apparently Wagner was nazi. Difficult to believe : Wagner died in 1883, Hitler was born in 1889. So improbable meetings between them !

It's not a matter of Wagner having been a Nazi, which naturally is impossible since the Nazi party didn't exist while he was alive. However Wagner was already known for his anti-semitic views during his own lifetime, primarily because he went so far as to have them published several times over:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Racism_and_antisemitism

That he became associated in the public consciousness with the Third Reich certainly doesn't make him any more appealing in this respect, but the damage had already been done by Wagner himself.

Saying that Wagner is considered anti-semitic simply because Hitler liked his music is, IMO, getting the initial cause and effect in the wrong order. If anything, it's more likely that the Third Reich latched on to Wagner because he was a prominent German composer whose published views on Jews and Judaism were already in line with Nazi ideology.