Russia to Shift to Mostly Volunteer Army

[Feuer Frei!]

The make-up of Russia's military will shift dramatically away from draftees, with more than two-thirds of the force to be composed of professional soldiers by 2017, a senior army officer said Wednesday.Russia's military expects 70 percent of all men and women in uniform to be paid soldiers in six years' time. Some 220,000 will be officers, with a further 425,000 enlisted personnel, said Nikolai Makarov, chief of Russia's general staff, according to Interfax.

Currently, some two-thirds of those serving in Russia's 1.2 million-strong armed forces entered the ranks after being drafted in biannual call-ups. Service in most units is for one year.
Draft evasion is common in Russia because of tough conditions, including harassment of new draftees, as well as extremely poor pay conditions.
The shift to a mostly professional force would simplify training and reduce pressure on the country's youth, Makarov said.
Russia's government has in recent years pushed for military reforms that would make the Kremlin's armed services more professional and more easily deployed in conflicts abroad.
Some Russian officers have spoken out against the creation of a lighter and more professional military, saying the changes would end centuries of military tradition and, potentially, make Russia vulnerable to a major attack.


SOURCE (http://www.military.com/news/article/general-russia-to-shift-to-mostly-volunteer-army.html)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

The make-up of Russia's military will shift dramatically away from draftees, with more than two-thirds of the force to be composed of professional soldiers by 2017, a senior army officer said Wednesday.Russia's military expects 70 percent of all men and women in uniform to be paid soldiers in six years' time. Some 220,000 will be officers, with a further 425,000 enlisted personnel, said Nikolai Makarov, chief of Russia's general staff, according to Interfax.

I think they said something similar in 2000 for 2005.

Some Russian officers have spoken out against the creation of a lighter and more professional military, saying the changes would end centuries of military tradition and, potentially, make Russia vulnerable to a major attack.

I sympathize with them. On the one hand, a one year conscription period is nearly useless; on the other hand, a wholesale adoption of Western solutions, made under a very different situation is not the answer.

Every Westerner and his dog says there are three solutions to Russia's personnel problems: End Dedovschina, "Volunteer Military" and "Professional NCO Corps".

Though I've read (on boards) that some Russians consider the Western perception of the Dedovschina problem exaggerated, it is the excesses that get reported, and they have to end or at least seriously tame down Dedovschina. This will be partly alleviated by improved conditions (if Senior Conscript Ivanov has more than enough to eat he won't feel so compelled to rob Junior Conscript Platonov of his breakfast) and the rest increased monitoring until some more positive traditions can be established.

The increased monitoring will be a mix of motivating the officers, but often they are overworked. That's when they bring out the "Professional NCO Corps", as if creating one is just a matter of will and overcoming the obstinacy of "old-school" Russian officers.

To put it bluntly, the NCO corps started with the caste system. In the past, entire population subgroups (mostly those that are not the nobility or the rich) that might have had the qualities to be an officer but could not due to birth. If they are to join the military, they have to do the equivalent of enlisting and eventually settle for the NCO corps, which handled "technical" tasks that are "beneath" the aristocrat officers, and this formed the backbone of the "modern NCO" corps as a technical and technotactical (squad leader level) specialist. But the important thing is that good people started becoming NCOs because they can't be officers (a not-so-glass ceiling), and there were a niche for NCOs because the officers couldn't be bothered (and later find it hard to learn to the required level) to handle certain tasks.

So, let's look at the Russian situation. Junior officers handle technical as well as tactical tasks, there is no unbroken NCO tradition, and worst of wall we are now in a relatively egalitarian era. Without any artificial ceiling, there is nothing to induce the best quality personnel to enlist. Anyone that wants to make a career out of the military will have tried out for officer school. In such a circumstance, only 2nd-rate people will try for being long-term enlisted. This, I believe, is a factor of why the old praporschik/michman program in the USSR didn't work out well - the officer schools already sucked up everybody with the right qualities that wanted to give the military a go - and the praporschik/michman program got the crumbs.

To put it bluntly, the only way a good NCO corps can be made in this kind of circumstance is if:
1) Supply exceeds demand for officers, so there is high selectivity for officers and some good volunteers will have to settle to be enlisted.
2) The population quality is relatively even, and on average high

and thus, even though the NCOs are 2nd rate human material as a group, they are still pretty good and good enough to lead troops. The dedovschina does not improve matters but even without it Russia doesn't have either one. Presumably, the recent reduction in the officet cadet intake is to help improve on one but nevertheless under the circumstances, only a poor quality "professional NCO" corps can be realistically expected, which will in fact be detrimental to good control.

As for the volunteer army, it is guaranteed to be much more expensive per man, with the consequences in numbers. It is not guaranteed to be much better for the same reason as what I said for the professional NCO. For other Russian arguments against the imposition of a volunteer army, I recommend http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/kontrakt-army.shtml (translates well in Google Translate). And worst of all, once you give up conscription in the modern era, if history is any indication, you can't go back. Resistance is almost guaranteed.
================
Any scheme would have to try and make use of what Russia has now, rather than following Western schemes made for different circumstances blindly. Since the priority is to improve troop control and expertise at lower levels (NCOs and volunteers are just means, not ends), if I were running things, I'll


Exploit the large glut of senior officers in the Russian Army. Instead of just relieving them from the Army, I'll demote them (except for the few best ones) and assign them to lower positions. That will increase the experience level at all levels while retaining (rather than discarding) corporate expertise, and the pyramid's shape will be instantly restored. They'll agree because it is better than being fired. At the very bottom, some platoon commanders will be demoted to deputy platoon commanders or squad leaders (typical NCO posts). That will immediately increase the density of troop control.
Keep the current large influx of officers instead of cuttiing it, but reinstate the Junior Lieutenant rank as a practical rank for new graduates (right now Junior Lieutenant is only for Russian equivalent of ROTC, and due to the differences in the Russian military education system,, the gap in military preparation is much larger than between say US Academy and US ROTC). Only the best candidates will be be a Lieutenant and assigned to be platoon commanders from the get go. The rest will start off as "Junior Lieutenant" and will have to serve an "apprenticeship" as squad or deputy platoon commanders (depends on their grade). They should be very motivated because with only 8 guys under them they have less excuse to be unable to keep them under control, and they won't be promoted unless they can control their squad. This will also have the pleasant side effect of improving the level of experience at platoon.
Henceforth, civilian university students will, instead of serving as reserve officers, only be used as NCOs to fill in the remaining squad leader posts or even as ordinary conscripts.
Keep warrant officers as a specialist corps.
Only after the environment in the Army units comes under control and the quality of recruits or conscripts improve do you attempt to make the "professional NCO corps".

Basically, the plan, rather than to try and hastily and clumsily make a NCO corps out of poor human material, be to strengthen the officer corps' ability and density to command and control. This will buy time to allow a much more careful selection of the NCO corps.

[FIREWALL]

Russia to Shift to Mostly Volunteer Army ??? :haha: no... :har:

[Stealhead]

Yeah I heard this some time ago I think they "started" by asking young Russians that had just completed elite training to sign on for a multiple year enlistment and they gave them bonuses as well they did this with units like their Airborne(which is its own branch) and SPETNAZ/GRU or what ever they call them nowadays.Not a bad idea to try it out with elite troops first and then go all volunteer with everyone.By trying to have a more professional force you end up getting a better military for modern times because you are increasing the size of your professional force.I think they are just going to deal with the issues it causes and then deal with them.

Not really sure what that is so funny to be honest.Do you think that there are not plenty of Russians who would not be interested in service if they know they can make a good career of it?i am willing to bet that a much higher number of Russians per capita will enlist willingly than what we see in the US.

I think it is funny how some officers and NCOs(the bad one I bet) dont like the idea because it will mean the end of their ways sooner or later just because it is a centuries old tradtion does not mean that it is a very good idea or is the best way to do things.

[FIREWALL]

To old school officers and NCOs it will be the end of the free ride. :yep:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Not really sure what that is so funny to be honest.Do you think that there are not plenty of Russians who would not be interested in service if they know they can make a good career of it?i am willing to bet that a much higher number of Russians per capita will enlist willingly than what we see in the US.

I think it is funny how some officers and NCOs(the bad one I bet) dont like the idea because it will mean the end of their ways sooner or later just because it is a centuries old tradtion does not mean that it is a very good idea or is the best way to do things.

To old school officers and NCOs it will be the end of the free ride.

It is not "funny". Most Westerners seem to think that the only reasons that Russian officers are resisting is because of "free ride", the ab or fossilized traditions, and some Russians (mostly the so-called instituniks that don't have to take actual responsibility for their proposals) agree with them. Actually the Russian officers do have a point:

Volunteer troops are more expensive, a Western estimate made back in 1990 being about 5-8 times per man (and I doubt it changed that much since then). That alone immediately creates a dilemma, because Russia does have long borders and real defense (a power projection requirement is not the same thing) requirements, a combination that's not faced by most countries using volunteer armies.

As for quality, volunteer enlisted are really only superior if:
1) They can be obtained from a reasonable grade cut of the population, both in quality and motivation. These days, the Russian conscription system gets a lot of crumbs, but so does their kontraktniki system - dubious advantage there. 8 crumbs vs 1 good soldier may be a discussion point, but 8 crumbs vs 1 is quite another.
2) They actually stay for more than one tour (which is usually 2-4 years long) so they have an experience advantage.

[Jimbuna]

I was under the impression their armed forces were far greater in number :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I think the Russian frontier is too big to guard with a small volunteer force. Considering the new "main enemy" is going to be China they need numbers and force multiplying weapons.

[CCIP]

The Dedovschina and other problems are not exaggarated at all. Compulsory military service and its inherently terrible conditions in Russia (made only worse by corruption), combined with pointless and politically-dubious involvement of these volunteer troops in occasional wars, was one of the main reasons why my family chose to leave Russia and why I don't have a Russian passport. My family had seen enough of it first-hand to make that call. Not until these reforms are actually made will I be looking to restore my citizenship either.

But the issue of reform comes up perennially and never gets anywhere...

[Stealhead]

When I was in basic the guy in the next bunk had been born in the Ukraine and moved to the US with his family to Tampa in 1991 he was very pleased to realize that the US military gives you so much gear (normally 4 full sets of BDUs,2 full sets of dress,1 dress coat,1feild jacket,2 field caps,and all the PT gear and boots) he had this **** eating grin on his face when they are passing this stuff out the whole time screaming and yelling at you I think this dude was nuts or something.We asked him later why he was so happy and he told us it was because he was being issued so much gear his old man had been in the Soviet Army in Afghanistan in the early 80s and he only got two complete uniforms.If you have family or friends come to your graduation you can show them your dorm and your bunk and all that guys parents where even more excited than the son was about all the gear also they where glad to see that no NCOs had kicked his face in as happens in Soviet/Russian basic.

If it was so crappy back in the 80's I am sure that things are not any better now.I just wonder if the Russian government can fix all its military problems seems like they are hoping that by simply changing the system in one way they it will some how solve it.But why are the "old school" guys gong tolerate the guys? They will just beat the **** out of them in basic and on active duty I bet.The only thing they can do is try to eliminate the bad old guard NCOs and keep the good ones they have to change the entire corp if that is possible.

The closest thing I ever witnessed to the Russian system was when one of the junior enlisted in my unit failed to show up for duty so they sent me and two SPs to go "collect" him we got him up and in uniform and I called the shop and let them know he was drunk so the SNCO told me to take him to the chow hall and make him eat breakfast at the chow our SNCO the squadron commander and the command chief master sergeant where waiting.Some where along the way in the line this guy just plopped a buttload of scrabbled eggs on his tray as he walked past the commander a Lt.Colonel the commander asked him why he did not use a plate the kid started to give some half assed remark without showing any proper respect to an officer and next thing I see the top shirt(the CCSMGT) smacked his hand on the bottom of the tray sending eggs flying all over this kid and the floor.Lets just say after he was done cleaning up the mess and went back through the line with proper forks and plate he showed the commander and everyone else proper military discipline.That was the most rapid sobering up period I have ever seen in my life and honestly he deserved it.I am sure in the Russian military the same incident would have resulted in much harsher reactions on the junior enlisted.

[CCIP]

When I was in basic the guy in the next bunk had been born in the Ukraine and moved to the US with his family to Tampa in 1991 he was very pleased to realize that the US military gives you so much gear (normally 4 full sets of BDUs,2 full sets of dress,1 dress coat,1feild jacket,2 field caps,and all the PT gear and boots) he had this **** eating grin on his face when they are passing this stuff out the whole time screaming and yelling at you I think this dude was nuts or something.We asked him later why he was so happy and he told us it was because he was being issued so much gear his old man had been in the Soviet Army in Afghanistan in the early 80s and he only got two complete uniforms.If you have family or friends come to your graduation you can show them your dorm and your bunk and all that guys parents where even more excited than the son was about all the gear also they where glad to see that no NCOs had kicked his face in as happens in Soviet/Russian basic.

Yeah, that about covers it! And I remember a couple of cellophone videos of Russian soldiers in Georgia back in 2008 when they entered a Georgian army base (the owners left in a haste with no fighting), and they just spent minutes swearing and screaming at how the Georgians (probably not the greatest or best-equipped military in the world at that) had EVERYTHING compared to them. I mean literally just screaming in outrage at their beds and gear and living space. Likewise you can also easily find videos of Russian barrack conditions online... that's a whole different world.

In principle even the draft wouldn't be bad, but the problem is that the corruption and lack of care in the system leads to Russian conscripts being a bunch of free slave labour and/or cannon fodder living in conditions worse than prison in the best of times. There are exceptions of course, but to get into those exceptional service situations (much like getting out of serving altogether) requires having good connections and preferably some cash. If you don't have either, you're beyond screwed. My family had neither, only had an education that qualified them to emigrate to Canada as professionals, so we got out before my and my brother's tickets came up. But that's how most of the Russian conscripts end up being poor village/small town kids by and large - they have virtually no chance to get away, and it's really one of the many forces that is killing the Russian countryside these days, far out of sight of the filthy rich big city elite that are responsible for much of this corruption in the first place.

[Stealhead]

No large nation in a time of total warfare(WWII style conflict) would be able to function without a draft it would simply be impossible.The US got rid of the draft for political reasons in 74 or 75 but yet all males must still register with Selective Service(draft) at 18 what they did was get rid of a peace time draft in a time of major conflict they would start it up again.We are just barely hanging on in a current conflicts without the draft right now as it is many guys that have served in the 2000s have been non-voluntarily sent to a warzone 3 or 4 times back in Nam you only had to go once if you got sent if you did more than one tour you did so willingly.What they do is back door draft folks who have served much more than their fair share of combat even though many guys keep going it is because they are dedicated to their fellow soldiers much more so than for any other reason.


I wonder why the poor Russians just dont over throw the ones in power if they make up most of the military what is stopping them? CCIP ever think of inspiring your former countrymen to rise up?:cool:

[Krauter]

What happened the last time the Russians rose and and revolted...?

One of the most brutal totalitarian regimes the world has ever seen. I much prefer a disgruntled Russian Army to a Russia led by its military leaders....

[Stealhead]

So you dont think people have the right to be free?Or because they are Russians they don't get that right?Just because that happened in 1917-20
does not mean the same thing will happen again.

You can take down a government without violence if the majority of the poor class Russian army simply supports their people the corrupt and Putin/Medvedev cant do anything to stop them.

Also Lenin and Stalin where not military men at all and they where not the only ones fighting the White Russians many other groups fighting against the Tzarists where far more moderate than Lenin and they trusted Lenin and the Bolsheviks until the war was over and they got bullets in their heads.One unfair government replaced another.

[Krauter]

I did not imply that I thought Russians or any Ukrainians or Byelorussians for that matter shouldn't have the right to revolt against their political leaders.

I simply stated fact that the last time the Russians staged a revolution it resulted in the Soviet Union and its totalitarian regime.

All the same, I, ME, with my own opinion, would prefer the Russia we have today, compared to a Soviet Union-esque Russia led by military leaders. That's just my opinion.

[CCIP]

I think you do have to take into account the history of Russians after the revolution, too. The damage done by the Civil War, Stalin's Purges, and WWII, the Cold War years, the painful dissolution of the USSR and the social collapse of the 1990s is something that still reverberates today and is difficult for Russians to get over. The collective psyche of Russians is too damaged by all that to even begin of thinking of revolt for the sake of freedom, fairness and national progress - food, shelter, and something definite to look forward to tomorrow is already big progress for them. The support for Putin & co. in Russia is genuine, because it brings a sense of stability. It only helps, of course, that the vast majority live in poverty and in that 'survival mode' even some sense of stability looks like a blessing. For any sort of uprising or reform, you're not gonna motivate anyone with just promises of freedom and fairness. The only things that will do that are either economic and social improvement for the impoverished majority that'll get their minds out of 'survival mode', or another total collapse. Neither looks very likely, and the current regime isn't really interested in either.

Things look somewhat better for the military, but corruption gets in the way and public opinion seems to be sitting around the two extremes - either it's total professionalization, or 'keep it the way it is'. While it stays polarized like that, it's much easier for the authorities to drag their feet. Russia definitely has the ability to take a middle path and modernize the conscripted army, but sadly the resources keep getting siphoned off by the bureaucracy and brass. The culture in the high-ranking powerful core and the 'power ministries' is still as poisonous as it was, in part because the military is still run by more or less the same people that ran it 20 years ago in the USSR.

So right now I don't think there's much of anything that will realistically happen. It's just sit and wait for economic improvement or another collapse to weaken the current regime's license to stick to the status quo (which a majority of Russians would rather they do at the moment), and wait until the Soviet brass starts dying off, with newer generations of officers hopefully being a little more forward-thinking.

[Krauter]

I think you do have to take into account the history of Russians after the revolution, too. The damage done by the Civil War, Stalin's Purges, and WWII, the Cold War years, the painful dissolution of the USSR and the social collapse of the 1990s is something that still reverberates today and is difficult for Russians to get over. The collective psyche of Russians is too damaged by all that to even begin of thinking of revolt for the sake of freedom, fairness and national progress - food, shelter, and something definite to look forward to tomorrow is already big progress for them. The support for Putin & co. in Russia is genuine, because it brings a sense of stability. It only helps, of course, that the vast majority live in poverty and in that 'survival mode' even some sense of stability looks like a blessing. For any sort of uprising or reform, you're not gonna motivate anyone with just promises of freedom and fairness. The only things that will do that are either economic and social improvement for the impoverished majority that'll get their minds out of 'survival mode', or another total collapse. Neither looks very likely, and the current regime isn't really interested in either.



...wait until the Soviet brass starts dying off, with newer generations of officers hopefully being a little more forward-thinking.

These two points are pretty spot on if I can say so myself. :yep:

[Stealhead]

Yeah I can see that there are still lots of "old guard" still around.Also I know a lot of former Soviet citizens that just decided to simply leave and live some place that already is better. I dont know much what most former Russians think most people I know are truly Ukrainians like my in-laws so I figure they might have differing opinions than ex Soviet Russians do.

I have a good friend who is an intel officer with the Air Force and his is pretty hard core into his job he will for sure go very far in the CIA if works for them in place of a full officer career.He told me that there are some younger advisers to Putin/Medy that have the modernize and head away from the old system way of thinking but still gaining power and spreading influence and other old guys that support mainly staying with the old system and spreading power and influence in most respects Both are not really good for regular Russians if they listen to the younger thinkers though they will gain much more economic power and therefore control which is bad long term for western interests either way they will be dealing with China though which is honestly more than even the US will be able to handle much less the Russians.

[CCIP]

Yeah I can see that there are still lots of "old guard" still around.Also I know a lot of former Soviet citizens that just decided to simply leave and live some place that already is better. I dont know much what most former Russians think most people I know are truly Ukrainians like my in-laws so I figure they might have differing opinions than ex Soviet Russians do.


On some issues, I think there'd be differences, but on this particular issue most former/present Ukrainians I know would agree with the Russians. A large portion of my family's friends are from the Ukraine and I think their impressions would agree with mine.

Meanwhile this whole discussion reminded me of this classic song. Almost 30 years old, but may as well be about this whole thing we're talking about today :)

http://youtu.be/P1nAnLzcfrY


Akvarium - Train On Fire

Colonel Vasin arrived at the front with his young wife
Colonel Vasin called up his regiment and told them "let's go home"
We've been fighting this war for 70 years, they taught us that life is a battle
But according to new intelligence, we've been fighting ourselves all along

I've seen the generals, they drink and eat our death
Their children are going mad from the fact they have nothing else left to want
And the land lies in rust, churches are mixed up with ashes
So if we want to have somewhere to return to, it's time to return home

This train is on fire, and there's no brakes left to hit
This train is on fire, and we can't run anywhere
This land was ours, until we got bogged down in struggle
It will die if it remains noone's - time to reclaim this land for ourselves

And all around torches burn, it's an assembly of all fallen units
And the people who shot at our fathers make plans for our children
We were birthed to the sounds of a march and they scared us with prison
But time to stop crawling on our belly - we're already back home


So as far as 'encouraging people to rise up', it's been said in the clearest of voices for years. Shame noone's been really listening all this time.