[REQ] Radar feedback needed.

[Xrundel]

Hey, guys!
I am currently working on radar station functionality and because I did not use it much at all - I have very limited knowledge about real gaming experience using it.
Can you post your experience and opinions about current state of radar station?
Do you manually use it like fixed by TDW sonar/hydrophone station?
Is bearing dial in your version of sub or campaign year working properly? (main is showing wrong readings that don't make any sense).
Is your radio guy reporting any radar contacts? (my does not say a word at all ever.)
Who got advanced in later years and using something better than FuMO-29 - what is your opinion on equipment?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[stoianm]

I used somethimes... if you ask the radio guy he will report you a radio contact like: bering and range (when he will catch one)... i do not know more than that:hmmm:

[Xrundel]

I think that "radio contact" is different from radar contact. Radar contact at current settings should be at 10km or closer. Radio contact could be as far away as you setting for max range in UI (adjustable number with "+" and "-" to the left of time compression control.
Judging on activity in this tread looks like radar pretty much useless for most of the players or what?
Recently I was tweaking radar's behavior and despite problems with FOV (field of view - it was FuMO29 with very restricted one) it was able to detect enemy airplanes in light fog and heavy rain. They were able to detect me from distance of approximately 3000m and there was no way for me to see them approaching in that rain. Not to mention that I stupidly used up almost all of my Flak shells on destroyer survivors in a little lifeboat and ran out of ammo on first airplane that was attacking me:haha:.
I guess radar could be useful in areas with heavy air coverage especially with limited visibility.

[Zedi]

On rare occasions players will end up playing after 41. I played a lot after 43 and is impossible to play with real nav because the radar is not working, at least none will report any contact until you get into visual contact range. And thats already late because you will get detected by the enemy.

The radar has the same bug as the hydro had.. you have to be very precise to locate a target on the screen and you cannot see if is only 1 or more contacts. I miss a round radar screen, is much more easy to locate a target when you scan manually.. but I dont think this part can be fixed.

Overall, radar is useless thus making playing the game after 41 more and more difficult, if not impossible. This and the missing snorkel is one of the biggest problem needed to be solved in SH5. The rest is pretty much fixed already.

[stoianm]

you are right ... i mixed things... i was thinking at radio contacts:DL

[Xrundel]

On rare occasions players will end up playing after 41. I played a lot after 43 and is impossible to play with real nav because the radar is not working, at least none will report any contact until you get into visual contact range. And thats already late because you will get detected by the enemy.

The radar has the same bug as the hydro had.. you have to be very precise to locate a target on the screen and you cannot see if is only 1 or more contacts. I miss a round radar screen, is much more easy to locate a target when you scan manually.. but I dont think this part can be fixed.

Overall, radar is useless thus making playing the game after 41 more and more difficult, if not impossible. This and the missing snorkel is one of the biggest problem needed to be solved in SH5. The rest is pretty much fixed already.

Thank you for detailed explanations.
I guess TheBeast right now in process of making snorkel to work properly (I did not even knew it's not working in the game) .
And yesterday I have major break-through of fixing radar wheel to show correct bearing which was a major setback on any further progress. Rangers and VOF are practically determined at this point, all that left - to find really usable relation between speed of auto-scan and size of detectable arc.
Radar unlike hydrophone does not have steady beam - it sends signal, then get it back in couple of seconds. If radar wheel spins too fast and detection arc is too narrow - it's easy to miss contact. Widening arc makes it less probable but bearing accuracy suffers then. Slow spinning wheel also have very slow reaction to the mouse wheel after you detected target and switch for manual mode...
I have to find most playable compromise.
But all work is delayed right now because I got feed up with CTD's and frozen game screen at every second restart - so I completely uninstalling everything and restoring my computer system at this point.

If everything will go as well as in last couple of days (and nights :) ) - you will have playable radar station very soon.

[Rongel]

This sounds really good!

I think Zedi is almost the only one who has played the game after the Total Germany :D. I'm waiting to start a new career with Zedis campaign and then I will play it from start to the bitter end! And that's where the radar comes handy. So good luck, this seems to be a really important fix.

[Zedi]

I finished twice the whole campaign and booth time I had to drop the realism level after 41 so I can use the radar. Indeed, this mod would help playing the whole campaign on high realism and will be a great help as now we will have a 39-45 time period to play and even a brand new campaign.

[Txema]

Radar unlike hydrophone does not have steady beam - it sends signal, then get it back in couple of seconds. If radar wheel spins too fast and detection arc is too narrow - it's easy to miss contact. Widening arc makes it less probable but bearing accuracy suffers then.


Please, forgive me if I am not understanding this properly, but the signal sent by radar is an electromagneit wave (radio signal) and therefore it travels with a velocity equal to 300.000 Km/sec. It takes just a few microseconds to travel several kilometers... Therefore the radar sends the signal and gets it back in microseconds... the delay is really negigible !

Is SH5 currently modelling a delay of a couple of seconds for the radar signal ? That would be completely wrong !

Can you explain it, please?


Txema

[Txema]

The radar has the same bug as the hydro had.. you have to be very precise to locate a target on the screen and you cannot see if is only 1 or more contacts. I miss a round radar screen, is much more easy to locate a target when you scan manually.. but I dont think this part can be fixed.


The radar interface is actually quite well modelled in SH5. The round radar screen was not used in those u-boat radars, and therefore it would be un-historical to have it in SH5. Only the FuMO-65 radar used in Type XXI U-boats had round radar screen (also known as PPI).


Txema

[Xrundel]

Please, forgive me if I am not understanding this properly, but the signal sent by radar is an electromagneit wave (radio signal) and therefore it travels with a velocity equal to 300.000 Km/sec. It takes just a few microseconds to travel several kilometers... Therefore the radar sends the signal and gets it back in microseconds... the delay is really negigible !

Is SH5 currently modelling a delay of a couple of seconds for the radar signal ? That would be completely wrong !

Can you explain it, please?


Txema

It's acting (in the game) the way I described, delay with image appearance at least 1.5-2 seconds. Then it disappear for about 2-3 seconds and so on... It's not in scanning mode - it's when you keeping constant bearing at the contact.

[TheBeast]

It's acting (in the game) the way I described, delay with image appearance at least 1.5-2 seconds. Then it disappear for about 2-3 seconds and so on... It's not in scanning mode - it's when you keeping constant bearing at the contact.
Because of Waves, Target Roll/Pitch and own Submarine Roll/Pitch it is very hard to maintain a Radar lock with Surface Ship Targets at longer ranges.
This is not just about how fast the Radar Emissions travel.
If sea conditions are perfect the Radar should be more useful.

[Xrundel]

Back to work today.. Some very promising results... At this point radar is working, antenna is turning. Right now I am working on automatic retraction/extension and results are promising... My guess is that radar not suppose to work on schnorkel depth? Waves interfere with FOV? Trying to figure out at what U-boat depth it should start to be available for operator.

[TheBeast]

Good th hear you were able to figure things out and get back up and running.

I would not worry about Raise/Lower of Radar antenna at this time.
I think in game default height of Radar Antenna is already raised to correct height.
If we can get Radar to function as we discussed already would be major step forward.

Max Range of Very Accurate Range Estimate. Both Surface and Air contacts.
Max Range for Detection of Surface Ships with not so accurate range esitmates.
Max Range for Detection of Aircraft with not so accurate range estimates.

[Xrundel]

Good th hear you were able to figure things out and get back up and running.

I would not worry about Raise/Lower of Radar antenna at this time.
I think in game default height of Radar Antenna is already raised to correct height.

Well, it's already done. Real eye candy for external camera. And stock setting actually had to spin trough watch personnel bodies - it was not set for safe height. In reality it's like you have to watch out not to be knock off your feet by radar "mattress" and look for smoke on the horizon at the same time :shifty: .


If we can get Radar to function as we discussed already would be major step forward.

Max Range of Very Accurate Range Estimate. Both Surface and Air contacts.
Max Range for Detection of Surface Ships with not so accurate range esitmates.
Max Range for Detection of Aircraft with not so accurate range estimates. Well... That's where problem exist. I want Radar station to work perfect. In case with hydrophone we just brutally twisted their nature to make them work more or less the way we want to. But radar have two devices that actually interact with the user.
Who cares about Balkon Gerat - it's somewhere under the hull and out of sight. Even rotating KDB - who cares that it's always rotating and always "on"?
But with radar I want it to be as perfect as possible. Sensors in the game designed to have just one ability to work correctly. If you assign two (not to mention three - like we did with hydro) ranges or different behaviors - there are bunch of side effects coming up.
If I make antenna and display (two devices that interact with player that I mentioned earlier) work perfectly - only one DataSensor have to be assigned. In this case antenna works just perfect - turns, stops and so on only on radar operator's command being completely controlled by radar station. But I have problem with radio man reporting contacts to me.
When I assign two behaviors - if ranges intersect - antenna spins all the time totally out of control of operator. Range is great and reports are perfect. But you can't shut it off.
If ranges don't intersect (for example ships from 0m to 59m height and then another range from 60m to 20000m for airplanes) - I have constantly spinning antenna reporting airplanes operator but when I turn radar station on - it overtakes control of the antenna, I can point it in my direction. Shut it off - and it goes to spinning again. Plus some weird behavior with vizual range being substituted with pulsating icons, provided by radar.

So - I am working right now to figure out golden middle, compromise.
I don't really care about ship's detection ( it detects it anyway - you can see it on the oscilloscope screen, just I can make them not to be reported)
I want antenna to work properly and stop spinning if I turn radar off, I want maximum-range aircraft detection with report form radio guy ( by the way, radar contacts are reported as "single contact" and sounds like "Einzeine kontakt" in German and I think radio guy borrowed voice of sonar guy for this matter :har: ).

It comes to the point that I will probably make tutorial mission with bunch of airplanes flying over me. It just very difficult every time go from port to high air traffic area to test every little change. I did it like 50 times in last 24 hrs and looks like airplanes are more and more difficult to find. And it's spring of 1943 and I go near enemy's airfields. They just decided to avoid me for some reason :hmmm:.

[Xrundel]

Yes, baby!:woot:

About an hour ago I found little cheat to make antenna work perfect despite additional "pseudo-sensor" and now I am testing final configuration near Plymouth. All ships beautifully show up on the radar screen at set maximum distance of 10 km (actual was 10.5 km) but not before it and just 5 minutes ago I've heard happy voice announcing "Single contact! Long Range!" that is definition of "radar contact" and I see two airplanes got detected by radar at distance set maximum distance of 20 km. Game treats them as "merchant" and contact shape is square but there two of them overlapping each other and they moving very fast. They will turn into regular shape as they will getting closer.
I was very nervous about guy announcing airplanes - so message in the box can actually reset Tx to 1 as it does with any other visual or sonar station announcement.

It was setting for FuMO-30.
Now I have to run FuMO-61 and FuMO-65 and working radar station - here we come.

You are going to love this thing. Before my favorite spot in the sub was captain's bed (:smug:), but now I put tactical map in the corner, radio or gramophone on top of it - and staring into oscilloscope for hours :ping: .
It works especially awesome with light time compression like 4x - does not miss any contacts.

[THE_MASK]

Another brilliant mod from a brilliant modder , thanks .

[reaper7]

Nice work Mate, another issue ticked of the list :up:

[andycaccia]

One of the most needed mods so far. Thank you very much for your efforts!

[Trevally.]

Fantastic:yeah:

[Xrundel]

Thank you, guys!

Trevally - I were looking for you everywhere:).

You automatic scripts need to be updated since hydrophone works the best deeper than 25m that you have initially set up in search patterns and other related stuff.
I took liberty to edit it manually. Simple substitution of "25" to "32" in Set New Depth command line just do fine. To compensate for extra time that takes to reach new depth I also changed time compression during turns ("advanced knuckle" or whatever it called) from "1" to "8".
Works like a charm.

Hit me if you want me just send you edited files in case of severe laziness (happens to me all the time :DL).

P.S. almost forgot - finished MOD is released here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184224 :salute:

[Trevally.]

Thank you, guys!

Trevally - I were looking for you everywhere:).

You automatic scripts need to be updated since hydrophone works the best deeper than 25m that you have initially set up in search patterns and other related stuff.
I took liberty to edit it manually. Simple substitution of "25" to "32" in Set New Depth command line just do fine. To compensate for extra time that takes to reach new depth I also changed time compression during turns ("advanced knuckle" or whatever it called) from "1" to "8".
Works like a charm.

Hit me if you want me just send you edited files in case of severe laziness (happens to me all the time :DL).

P.S. almost forgot - finished MOD is released here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184224 :salute:

Thats great Xrundel thanks:yeah:
Yes send me the update and I will add to download section as v0.6:DL

[Txema]

Xrundel,

Thank you very much !!

:up:


Txema