Firing blind

[Zorgl]

Hello everybody. I play at full realism, except that when there is contact it is automatically located on the map. And one thing i'm wondering, is ; how can I lock a target without using the periscope ? I'ma kind of a coward and don't like having my periscope up. I can enter the AoB and speed (I calculate manually) in the TDC, but I never get the estimation on my tactical map. I believe it's because I can't enter the range. Help ?

Also, what's the use of TBT ? Byt the time you get in range of seeing an enemy ship with it, it can see you as well, with the submarine being above water !

[Mescator]

Also, what's the use of TBT ? Byt the time you get in range of seeing an enemy ship with it, it can see you as well, with the submarine being above water !

Not true mate. In real life a number of skippers destroyed multiple ships, or took a large chunk out of entire convoys without submerging at all. Submarines are small warships and ride very low in the water. At night they can be difficult to see. Many a skipper simply sailed inbetween escorts without being spotted and torpedoed ships.

Similar actions have been undertaken by some of the skippers on the forum, with similar results :up:

Edit: Obviously you need the right conditions though. 0 m/s wind speed on a clear sunny day is a good way to submerge permanently =p

[Mush Martin]

I totally concur, A Fleetsub at battledepth (radar depth)
is a match for any three destroyers in open combat, in stealth mode you can take five or better merchies, even with full realism and fully flawed torpedos. that is if you know what your doing, Only an aircraft can threaten you
without endangering itself.

The TBT sank far more ships than the Periscope overall.
they are however the same thing completely in function
and to be able to use one is to be able to use the other.

there is historical precedent for blind shooting only in the first six
months of the war. during which time the successful skippers stayed
at periscope depth, and the unsuccessful skippers in accordance with
doctrine fired large spreads blind from 100ft. Because of the clear success'
of the Periscope users and because of the total lack of success of the
doctrinal users, the doctrine was changed firmly after six months.

attacks at night were initially made from Peri depth during the first year
of the pacific war but this also turned out to be unproductive against
varying size targets for many many reasons including Speed situational
awareness tactical flexibility and a deck full of Gun Crews is a better
option for a picket boat than a ten thousand 1941 dollar torpedo.


Regards
Mush.

[Daniel Prates]

a deck full of Gun Crews is a better
option for a picket boat than a ten thousand 1941 dollar torpedo.

You're talking about 1940's currency, right?

At night, and with light fog or rain, you can get as close as, say, 1500 meters (4500 feet, or almost 1 nm) to a target without being seen. That's close enough for a torpedo attack (actually, an optimal position). Situational awareness is better, so it is indicated for those situations where you have multiple targets. Lastly, you will have more speed and manouverability. And if anything happens, you can be underwater in a minute or less, according to your crew's experience. So it is not as dangerous at is may seem, though sure enough, it is freaking bold!

Sure enough, in those cases, there is a tendency for also being DDs in the area. Multiple targets equals 'convoys'. This is where screening comes in handy. Once you know the pattern that the DD (or DDs) are sailing, you can more or less estipulate a safe area to engage. It will all depend on the situation.

Another advantage (correct me if I'm wrong, guys!) is that in the surface, you are invisible to active sonar. DDs can use active or passive sonar, but never both at the same time. If the escort is sweeping in front of the convoy, it is likely to be using active sonar, so if visibility allows you to sneak close to the rear of the convoy, you will not be seen or heard.

If you engage a convoy properly, nobody will know you're there until a torpedo strikes. So prior to that moment, it makes no big diference to be underwater or not.

Of course, this option is limited to poor visibility situations, where, thanks to your small silouette, you can seen the enemy before it sees you. Clear skies and weather and daylight rules out all of that.

[Mush Martin]

Yeah Dan adjusted 1942 Dollars, about ten thousand bucks a copy for
Mk-XIV's

MM

[Zorgl]

So you suggest me to surface when ther's an awful weather at night that doesn't allow me to enter height because of waves on the periscope ?

[Daniel Prates]

Stadimeter is difficult to use in rough weather, indeed. Sometimes you can see the top of the highest mast, but the water line is hidden behind the waves, so you must keep waiting for that brief moment where you can make a measurement. It's tough but possible. In any case, it is easier surfaced than it is submerged, as in rough seas the periscope will be alternating between covered and uncovered by waves, whereas when surfaced, the TBT (or UZO in u-boats) will be clear 99% of the time.

Anyone can hit a torpedo when in optimal situation and positioning, Zorgl, such as that one depicted in the submarine school (mission 3). It is hiting them in akward situations that makes the fun of the game. And indeed surface attacks are easier in some of them.

[Mush Martin]

Well after a fashion sure.

Stuff that effects your visibilty is
Light ( How much of a moon )
Chop ( to break up the shape)
Speed( to reduce wake)
Aspect (ie angle of silhouette of ship that target seas.sideview bad
frontview good back view best.)
Noise (if semi submerged you generate a sound signature.)
Go Dark ( inspite of what you think the IJN can direction find
on your radios and radars. so maintain emcon )

make approachs based on keeping your profile minimized throughout.
Make major maneuvers prior to visual contact, you know where they
are, you dont need to see them to gain advantageous position, but
you do need to gain advantageous position so they have much much
less of a chance detecting you.

Ideally you would be in firing position decks awash aligned with
the final firing angle ass backwards, you would wait until the
enemy group moves from coming into visual until they pass directly
across your firing point, with a measured spread shooting the
combined overlapping silhouette of the convoy, with out maneuver
you would just hit 1/3 then 2/3 surface totally then ahd std then full ahead and book out with out showing anysingle thing that shows above
the troughs.

Still nights always require less and slower movements
if moon is more than half prosecute from radar depth.

Regards.
Mush

[Daniel Prates]

make approachs based on keeping your profile minimized throughout.
Make major maneuvers prior to visual contact, you know where they
are, you dont need to see them to gain advantageous position, but
you do need to gain advantageous position so they have much much
less of a chance detecting you.

I find this to be 70% of a sucessful attack. What really helps (if the convoy is a bit predictable) is to mark some positions of the same ship, along a couple of minutes, and trace a line with them. Projecting it some 20, 30 kilometers ahead of the convoy is all you need: run fast ahead of the convoy, even if you can't see it anymore, and position yourself in such a manner that you can use your sound contacts to estimate how close they are. You only need to see them to fire: all the rest of the aproach can be done without actually being at sight-distance all the time.

Oh and btw, Mush, what is radar depth? having only the coning tower above water?

[Mush Martin]

Oh and btw, Mush, what is radar depth? having only the coning tower above water?

its the last depth at which your radar operates reliably under
your current sea conditions.


About -46 ft though it may be -48
but about -42 if theres any seas otherwise
ducking under will toggle it off too inconveniently.

Mush.

[Mush Martin]

mark some positions of the same ship, along a couple of minutes, and trace a line with them. Projecting it some 20, 30 kilometers ahead of the convoy is all you need: run fast ahead of the convoy, even if you can't see it anymore, and position yourself in such a manner that you can use your sound contacts to estimate how close they are.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-10_065821_625.jpg?t=1305598831
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-10_070010_812.jpg?t=1305598899
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192238_247.jpg?t=1305598956
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192426_122.jpg?t=1305599001
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192509_904.jpg?t=1305599047
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192714_279.jpg?t=1305599115

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/BBBBB.jpg?t=1305599181

9200 to shoot 8600 to hit.... the ten pack can opener I am 7.4 km from the nearest escort.
M

[Daniel Prates]

Great shots! She was starting to turn already. Great example of the kind of aproach I was sugesting. Personally I do it like that all the time.

The main advantage of ploting your attack with a projected line along the course of the ship, is that you can position yourself to it in a 90 degree angles (or, in mush's case, 180 degrees angle) which makes it so much easier to input correct AOB date - which is impossible to do visually (at least with good precision) when you and the target are in a odd angle between each other.

[Mush Martin]

:shifty: Hmm I suppose I did say side on aspect was bad didnt I.

My Bad,
M

[Platapus]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192714_279.jpg?t=1305599115



That would make a cooleo background. :yeah:

Making your first surface night attack is a scary thing (even if it is just a game). :yep:

[magic452]

Mush; An unconventional method but makes for some great screen shots. :up::up: Nice shooting. :salute:

Magic

[Mush Martin]

Help yourself to the screenie anytime, and true what you said platapus
but I will go further, the first time and the first succesful clean get away
are the two that make our hearts beat for the game.

MM:salute:

[Daniel Prates]

Mush; An unconventional method but makes for some great screen shots. :up::up: Nice shooting. :salute:

Magic

I must say, it have never occured me to stay paralel to the target, and fire all bow and stern torpedoes at the same time.

[Mush Martin]

Mush; An unconventional method but makes for some great screen shots. :up::up: Nice shooting. :salute:

Magic


Consider the timing between first hit and last :cool:

[commandosolo2009]

martin, thats the best salvo I've seen so far. PLEASE do a tutorial on how you did it. a video about alignment, firing timing, and orientation to path would be in order.:salute:

[yubba]

Yes that was a nice shot, well I didn't do it in SH4 but in 2, sub vs sub used sound, got the track, set gyros to zero waited till it sounded like it was crossing the bow gave in 10 degrees lead and fired, in all the excitement I don't know if I fired 1 or 4, oh that's another story but I got the sub. I notice in SH4, that if you are within 800 yards set gyros to 0 ship speed to 0 and 10 degrees lead fire 3 shots, normally get a couple of hits. Heck the TDC would put torps on target if data input is correct with minimal scope observations.

[Mush Martin]

Hmmm a tutorial, well I learned it from Wernersobe's videos.

the only really spectacular things about this shot are distance and
simultaneity. Now firing all ten in sequence most can manage I am sure.

the rest really executes more like a lab shot than a war shot.

basically get way out in front of the formation, accurately predict the enemy
track with precision, lay off the appropriate number of kilometers perpendicular
from the track.
achieve perfect station keeping (none movement) at peridepth.
this reduces your probability of errors by 50%
basically beam on at 90 degrees to target point for a full spread.
mark out a circle denoting max torpedo range,
mark enemy track through circle.
refine speed and ship ID.
open all tubes
when ship crosses intersection of circle and track
Lock PK set to correct range as denoted by the circle track intersection.
and commence to shootin.
after all tubes are closed Book directly perpendicular away from enemy
track for a few minutes building momentum because the formation
cant hear medium performance at this range.

go quiet

Boom.


simple:doh:

(look closely at first screenie for details, all the info on how is in the screenie sequence)
(what it all comes down to is accurate PK info and lock)

[TheAbyss]

Set the range to maximum and send it to the TDC (move the compass thingy around until it's at the highest number).

Your torpedo solution should show up on the attack map now.