Bad weather : Love and Hate

[VonApist]

U53 positioned in the Irish Sea, weather is apalling. Hydrophone pinpoint towars a merchant coming my way. Visibility less that 500m. Using hydro readings i map the targets course, surface to position myself quickly and at a 90 degree angle. Submerge at 10m periscope up.

All i can see is rain and waves. According to my hydrophones, target is at bearing 350. I finally see her, Large Merchant no escorts. But i barely can get a good look at it and its only 400m away! As the distance is very short, i choose Tube 1 , low speed magnetic (they usually arm quicker than impact). Fire! and Dud!! Tube 2 fires and explodes before it reaches the target (probably due to extreme weather?).

The Merchant is now at bearing 030 and i dont want to risk a shot at this angle at this weather. I change course and follow it. I move away, surface and reposition myself ahead again at 90 degrees . Waiting for her to come and here she is. F**k magnetic. 2 more Tubes, set to impact fire both. And i do. Distance 420m. First one impact, second one a Dud (again!). And it has nothing to do with angle of fire it was perfect. Probably distance. Merchant hit. But wont go down. I follow her for 45 min game time and even though the weather is terrible she is still afloat.

No option for deck guns as i cannot man due to weather. Tube 1 reloaded. Coup de Grace and thank god, no dud this time. But it took me 5 torps to bring her down and im still on a VIIB - so not much room to spare.

Next time i will try for a longer, hydropone shot....

Suggestions?:doh:

[VONHARRIS]

I would have gone with the longer range hydrophone shot.
It has a "small" disadvantage though: You can not visually identify the targets' nationality.
But since the attack took place in the Irish sea most chances are that she was a British ship.
And I wouldn't have fired a magnetic pistol torpedo in that weather.
In fact I never use magnetic pistols.

One question: With the term Irish sea do you refer to grids AM 51 52 53 54 or the area between England and Ireland?

[VonApist]

I refer to the Celtic Channel (between ireland and britain). The only reason i used magnetic was the fact that the range was too small and i was afraid that impacts they wouldnt be able to arm on time. Magnetics in such weather are a risk as well, i know... tough choice when range is at 400m

[Johnfb]

All weather deck guns....

[Fish In The Water]

All weather deck guns....

Honestly these deck gunners are almost as delicate as baseball players...

First glimpse of rain and they call the game! :O:

[Johnfb]

Honestly these deck gunners are almost as delicate as baseball players...

First glimpse of rain and they call the game! :O:

:haha:

[Jimbuna]

I refer to the Celtic Channel (between ireland and britain). The only reason i used magnetic was the fact that the range was too small and i was afraid that impacts they wouldnt be able to arm on time. Magnetics in such weather are a risk as well, i know... tough choice when range is at 400m

All torpedoes arm after travelling 300m regardles of what setting you have them at.

The only exception is the late war Falke which arms after 400m.

[VONHARRIS]

I refer to the Celtic Channel (between ireland and britain).

I wouldn't drive my IX in there for anything!
You DO like to take risks, don't you?

[desirableroasted]

U53 positioned in the Irish Sea, weather is apalling. Hydrophone pinpoint towars a merchant coming my way. Visibility less that 500m. Using hydro readings i map the targets course, surface to position myself quickly and at a 90 degree angle. Submerge at 10m periscope up.

All i can see is rain and waves. According to my hydrophones, target is at bearing 350. I finally see her, Large Merchant no escorts. But i barely can get a good look at it and its only 400m away! As the distance is very short, i choose Tube 1 , low speed magnetic (they usually arm quicker than impact). Fire! and Dud!! Tube 2 fires and explodes before it reaches the target (probably due to extreme weather?).

The Merchant is now at bearing 030 and i dont want to risk a shot at this angle at this weather. I change course and follow it. I move away, surface and reposition myself ahead again at 90 degrees . Waiting for her to come and here she is. F**k magnetic. 2 more Tubes, set to impact fire both. And i do. Distance 420m. First one impact, second one a Dud (again!). And it has nothing to do with angle of fire it was perfect. Probably distance. Merchant hit. But wont go down. I follow her for 45 min game time and even though the weather is terrible she is still afloat.

No option for deck guns as i cannot man due to weather. Tube 1 reloaded. Coup de Grace and thank god, no dud this time. But it took me 5 torps to bring her down and im still on a VIIB - so not much room to spare.

Next time i will try for a longer, hydropone shot....

Suggestions?:doh:

1) Torpedoes arm at 300, whether you have set them to impact or magnetic/impact. As Jimbuna points out, some arm at further distances later.

2) If you are shooting at 90AOB or thereabouts, you want to aim into the hull at about 2 meters (depending on the ship). Don't try for an under-the-hull magnetic detonation, since it will go off, if it goes off, a few meters on the other side of the ship, with little damage.

3) Though when she was at 30, and you could maneuver into a gyroangle of 350-010, that is exactly when you should have tried a magnetic under the hull shot. Probably would have sunk her.

4) Don't shoot in rotten weather like that. You have no tactical oversight, and you risk losing the crippled merchant in the murk. And you cannot finish it off with the deck gun even if you do find it.

Remember that you have 36K kilometers of fuel when you leave port. You can afford to be choosy.

[King_Zog]

1)
2) If you are shooting at 90AOB or thereabouts, you want to aim into the hull at about 2 meters (depending on the ship). Don't try for an under-the-hull magnetic detonation, since it will go off, if it goes off, a few meters on the other side of the ship, with little damage.


Actually ,I find that in my experience magnetics work just as fine for under the keel AOB90 shots as they do for oblique angle shots.

I have tested this in a practice shooting gallery type mission I made and had no problems.

Although I agree if you are in position for an AOB90 shot, you might aswell use an impact, as there is always a very slight chance of premature detonation with a magnetic, which becomes much more likely in heavy weather.

One thing I have noticed which I can't be sure of as it will need testing further:

To me there does not seem to be any difference in explosive power between impact and under the keel magnetic detonations. It seems to me that shot placement is the only thing that counts if you are going for 1 torp sinkings. I wonder if anyone has looked at the game files and knows for sure?

[Gargamel]

Actually ,I find that in my experience magnetics work just as fine for under the keel AOB90 shots as they do for oblique angle shots.

I have tested this in a practice shooting gallery type mission I made and had no problems.

Although I agree if you are in position for an AOB90 shot, you might aswell use an impact, as there is always a very slight chance of premature detonation with a magnetic, which becomes much more likely in heavy weather.

One thing I have noticed which I can't be sure of as it will need testing further:

To me there does not seem to be any difference in explosive power between impact and under the keel magnetic detonations. It seems to me that shot placement is the only thing that counts if you are going for 1 torp sinkings. I wonder if anyone has looked at the game files and knows for sure?
\
:yeah:

[desirableroasted]

Actually ,I find that in my experience magnetics work just as fine for under the keel AOB90 shots as they do for oblique angle shots.

They will almost always go off at low speeds (a TI at high speed under a narrow hull, though, may not), but tend to explode on the other side. When that happens, I do not get a "torpedo impact" message (even though the explosion is obvious), and the damage to the target is often remarkably slight, and is always on the far side of the target). For a small merchant, it may be enough, but I find it a wasted torp for a large target.


To me there does not seem to be any difference in explosive power between impact and under the keel magnetic detonations. It seems to me that shot placement is the only thing that counts if you are going for 1 torp sinkings.

I'd say shot placement is the single most important factor, but not all of the equation. A magnetic under the forward crane of a passenger/cargo, for example, can snap it in two. Sent in as an impact, you are more often than not going to spend hours waiting for her to sink.

[Snestorm]

All my torps go into the tubes set to impact, and are unchangable without pulling them from the tubes and reloading. Therefor I fall into the Novice group when dealing with magnetics. Desirableroasted is the source for good information there.

Now on to the rest of it.
Surface attack? In a heavily patroled area like The Irish Sea, with Heavy Fog?!
Wow! You realy have to be tonnage hungry to go that route.

For those "I just have to do this" occassions that arise, I'd either risk a hydrophone attack (risks are stated above) or, preferably an angled shot at a 90 degree angle, IF the target shows itself.

Although I usualy pass on Heavy Fog attacks, I too have been guilty of partaking.
As I'm usualy very generiouse with torpedoes anyway, these kinds of attacks are not a good idé for me. They can realy eat up a torpedo loadout, fast.

[King_Zog]

They will almost always go off at low speeds (a TI at high speed under a narrow hull, though, may not), but tend to explode on the other side. When that happens, I do not get a "torpedo impact" message (even though the explosion is obvious), and the damage to the target is often remarkably slight, and is always on the far side of the target). For a small merchant, it may be enough, but I find it a wasted torp for a large target.


Well, I positioned myself in the sh3 editor for a perfect AOB90 shot at 500 meters from the target. For the test subject I picked a tramp steamer which the recognition manual states has a draft of 6.5 meters. The target was stationary.

My AOB90 position was such that I was pointed perfectly at the forward area of the ship, between the two forward cranes. This was so I could aim at the sweetspot while ensuring the torpedo would make a straight run.

I set the torpedo depth to 10 meters just to be sure it would pass under the keel. I also removed the mod I usually use that makes the ships sit a little heavier in the water.
I fired the torpedo on the fast setting, normally I shoot on medium speed but I figured fast would be more appropriate for the test. It detonated directly under the keel (I checked with the external camera). The ship then quickly sank.

I kept repeating this and kept getting the exact same result with no mishaps.

The only way I could make the torpedo overshoot was to set its depth even deeper so the torpedo would just run under the target and not explode.

I then tried it with a small freighter and then a large merchant just to be sure the smaller ships were not just sunk by 'splash' damage (bad joke).
Apart from adjusting the torpedo depth everything was done in the same way. Same results again.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing with your play style. And I am not trying to suggest AOB90 with magnetics is a some kind of wonderful tonnage winning strategy. It is not. All I am stating is that contrary to what many SH3 players believe, AOB90 shots with magnetics are indeed viable and will sink ships whether in Sh3 Editor or on patrol.

[desirableroasted]

Same results again.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing with your play style. And I am not trying to suggest AOB90 with magnetics is a some kind of wonderful tonnage winning strategy. It is not. All I am stating is that contrary to what many SH3 players believe, AOB90 shots with magnetics are indeed viable and will sink ships whether in Sh3 Editor or on patrol.

Not at all, I am a big fan of research. And I have sunk targets with 90AOB magnetics, but the failure rate has been (in my experience) unacceptably high. But given your results, I will try more often and report back.

All my torps go into the tubes set to impact, and are unchangable without pulling them from the tubes and reloading. Therefor I fall into the Novice group when dealing with magnetics. Desirableroasted is the source for good information there.


Whether your shots are impact or magnetic need not be more than a function of depth setting. All "magnetics" are actually "impact/magnetics" ... a "magnetic" hitting a hull at 90AOB will act as an impact, and one passing under the hull will (try to) act like a magnetic.

So, in fact, there is never any need to switch from "M" to "I," unless you want a safety factor in really rough weather AND know you want an impact shot.

(And, BTW, I know jussssst enough to get myself in trouble out there.)

[Bakkels]

Well, I positioned myself in the sh3 editor for a perfect AOB90 shot at 500 meters from the target. For the test subject I picked a tramp steamer which the recognition manual states has a draft of 6.5 meters. The target was stationary.

My AOB90 position was such that I was pointed perfectly at the forward area of the ship, between the two forward cranes. This was so I could aim at the sweetspot while ensuring the torpedo would make a straight run.

I set the torpedo depth to 10 meters just to be sure it would pass under the keel. I also removed the mod I usually use that makes the ships sit a little heavier in the water.
I fired the torpedo on the fast setting, normally I shoot on medium speed but I figured fast would be more appropriate for the test. It detonated directly under the keel (I checked with the external camera). The ship then quickly sank.

I kept repeating this and kept getting the exact same result with no mishaps.

The only way I could make the torpedo overshoot was to set its depth even deeper so the torpedo would just run under the target and not explode.

I then tried it with a small freighter and then a large merchant just to be sure the smaller ships were not just sunk by 'splash' damage (bad joke).
Apart from adjusting the torpedo depth everything was done in the same way. Same results again.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing with your play style. And I am not trying to suggest AOB90 with magnetics is a some kind of wonderful tonnage winning strategy. It is not. All I am stating is that contrary to what many SH3 players believe, AOB90 shots with magnetics are indeed viable and will sink ships whether in Sh3 Editor or on patrol.

That's true, magnetics work fine at AOB90, but for me the big advantage of magnetic detonation is that the AOB isn't a factor anymore.
By the way, have you tested if a magnetic a meter below the keel really causes more damage than an impact shot? I know everybody seems to think that it does (because of the vacuum it creates under the boat resulting in more flooding) but everybody also thought that depth charges caused AI sonar to briefly stop working, and just a few weeks ago DarkWraith discovered that this was actually not true...

[desirableroasted]

We seriously need to put together an SH3 Mythbusters group to iron this stuff out.

I felt like a fool believing the "TII depthkeeping problems myth" for 3 or so years, and was astounded to learn that magnetics work pretty well, in fact.

[Gargamel]

We seriously need to put together an SH3 Mythbusters group to iron this stuff out.

I felt like a fool believing the "TII depthkeeping problems myth" for 3 or so years, and was astounded to learn that magnetics work pretty well, in fact.

I tried that the other day if you recall. And I was foiled (meddling kids!!) by the merchants taking off on me. Hence that Proved thread.

I never went back and fixed the time of day so they wouldnt see the trail.

I also cringe on trying it again, due to the loading times.

But, as I LOVE crunching numbers in a quest to find answers (see http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=182233 for my fanaticism with this), I am willing to coordinate a project where we all contribute to this. I was looking at 60 firings to get accurate results, and My heart just wasnt into it that much. But if we can get a bunch of people to each 'donate' 5-10 shots, under different variables, then we can actually get much better results than one person doing it. My goal would be a few hundred total shots. If there's interest, and I know DR and I want to settle this :D, I would be willing to run this.

[VONHARRIS]

All my torps go into the tubes set to impact, and are unchangable without pulling them from the tubes and reloading. Therefor I fall into the Novice group when dealing with magnetics. Desirableroasted is the source for good information there.

Now on to the rest of it.
Surface attack? In a heavily patroled area like The Irish Sea, with Heavy Fog?!
Wow! You realy have to be tonnage hungry to go that route.

For those "I just have to do this" occassions that arise, I'd either risk a hydrophone attack (risks are stated above) or, preferably an angled shot at a 90 degree angle, IF the target shows itself.

Although I usualy pass on Heavy Fog attacks, I too have been guilty of partaking.
As I'm usualy very generiouse with torpedoes anyway, these kinds of attacks are not a good idé for me. They can realy eat up a torpedo loadout, fast.

I agree.
I also use only impact torpedoes and TI only since I like to have a stand-off attack option.
Of course , I will use a magnetic pistol with the TV homing torpedo.

I also try to go by the "one torpedo one ship" by Silent Otto

[King_Zog]

That's true, magnetics work fine at AOB90, but for me the big advantage of magnetic detonation is that the AOB isn't a factor anymore.


Actually I totally agree with you. When I'm on patrol I usually fire magnetics from an oblique angle more often then not, and I tend to use impact only for broadside shots. So while I'm not really sure if there is any point to shooting magnetics at AOB90, i'm convinced it does work if you really want to do it.

I tried that the other day if you recall. And I was foiled (meddling kids!!) by the merchants taking off on me. Hence that Proved thread.


If you use the mission editor you can set any ship to a speed of zero and then tag it as a docked ship... and then it won't run away!

Also I am happy to contribute some shots if you want to run any SH3 experiments. My tests were perhaps a bit too simple, but with a few people on board we could make then very thorough.

I am still undecided if magnetics are really any more powerful then impacts, but perhaps they do increase the probability of a one shot sinking.
Visually atleast, like Desirable says, ships do tend to split in half more when you use an under the keel detonation.

[King_Zog]

I decided to run a few more tests with magnetics which has led me to slightly revise my conclusions concerning under the keel detonations at AOB90. Basically, not all ships are equal, some ships are better for broadside shots than others. This is especially true if you are aiming for one shot kills and probably unimportant if you tend to fire two or three torpedos at one target.

The factors that seem to be important are ship width and length. For example, I could easily one shot kill a stationary Large Merchant at AOB90 everytime.
But when I tried the Medium Cargo I found it impossible to sink with either just one impact or just one magnetic under the keel. Ofcourse the ship was stationary for the test, perhaps with some forward motion it would have gone down.

It seems that under the keel shots at AOB90 will detonate slightly off centre. Either slightly to the nearside or farside of the hull's underside.
I tried again and again but could not one shot it at AOB90.

On smaller ships like the Tramp Steamer this doesn't seem to matter. And on large wide ships like the Large Merchant detonating off centre also seems to not be a problem. But a long narrow ship will tend to retain its buoyancy, it will pitch heavily into the water but will not sink.

But Interestingly I tried again at AOB45 with a magnetic on the same spot, and the ship sunk quickly. And I got the same result when I repeated the test.

It seemed the AOB45 shot exploded dead centre under the hull. And while I am not sure what extra factors this detonation provided, it certainly sunk the ship while the AOB90 shot required a follow up torpedo.

edit: All these tests were performed on stationary targets, and also I was looking for a quick sinking, not one that would take hours.

[desirableroasted]

I tried that the other day if you recall. And I was foiled (meddling kids!!) by the merchants taking off on me. Hence that Proved thread.

I never went back and fixed the time of day so they wouldnt see the trail.

I also cringe on trying it again, due to the loading times.

But, as I LOVE crunching numbers in a quest to find answers (see http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=182233 for my fanaticism with this), I am willing to coordinate a project where we all contribute to this. I was looking at 60 firings to get accurate results, and My heart just wasnt into it that much. But if we can get a bunch of people to each 'donate' 5-10 shots, under different variables, then we can actually get much better results than one person doing it. My goal would be a few hundred total shots. If there's interest, and I know DR and I want to settle this :D, I would be willing to run this.

Whatever I can do to help... superstition and "conventional wisdom" are a thinking man's ball and chain.

[Snestorm]

I also try to go by the "one torpedo one ship" by Silent Otto

He's who I copied my torpedo settings from.
3 meters - Impact only (Magnetic pistol removed).

The torpedo would have to be partialy removed from the tube to alter that. Thus, I leave them all set that way, and work with it come what may.

[Osmium Steele]

Here's my anecdotal evidence.

Naval academy torp mission.

Fired 2 mags at the large cargo, both detonated on the far side at nearly 90 AOB. First ship hit, last to sink.

Fired a 2 impact, 2 deg. spread at the stationary freighter, aimed at the forward cargo hold. The left torp missed astern and he sprinted into the one on the right.

Chased after the tanker while the crew started the forward reloads. Stern fish, magnetic, fired at 60 AOB. Detonated at 65 or so directly under the tanker. It went down in minutes.

Chased down the two tramp steamers. Took 2 impacts each to sink. Both times, the first fish hit forward of the superstructure but didn't even slow the ship.

As I re-approached the "stationary" freighter, I was met by an interesting sight. Its rear decks were completely awash part way up the superstructure! No fires, no smoke. I watched it for an hour, and nothing changed. I've never seen a ship that flooded that wasn't sinking. Finally put a stern fish into it and moved toward the, now stationary, big cargo ship.

She was on fire, down at the stern with a huge starboard list, which is interesting considering the detonations took place on the port side. Before we got into firing position, we witnessed secondary explosions and she turned turtle.

Personal note, thank you to whoever programmed the bodies flying through the air, arms and legs flailing, during the explosions. I laughed for a solid 5 minutes. Seriously, there were tears. :up: