About the SH5 campaigns - what you like/dislike [Archive]

TheBeast

04-11-11, 06:30 PM

My #1 issue from the very start was you are unable to select what Type U-Boat you command. When new boat becomes available, what Type is it? All you know is that a new boat is available, do you want to use it, Yes/No...

Then as I begin to research this a little, I am disturbed to find the lack of missions on a U-Boat Class/Flotilla basis. The Campaign has Specific Missions. Those Missions may or may not require special feature of a U-Boat, such as range ability. This prevents using, say, Type-II(When/If available) during the Western Approaches Date/Time era because no missions exits during that time that the Type-II class would be able to complete.

Re-Supply at sea(Why so stingy). Did Type-VII U-Boats really act as re-supply vessel for other Type-VII u-boats? Were these resupply U-Boats new skippers on training missions?
Maybe only use Surface Resupply Ships until after dates that the Type-XIV Milk Cows were deployed. My history knowlege is weak in this area but something does not seem right. If I use most of my fuel to deploy to patrol area, how is same clsss boat going to be waiting there with weapons and fuel for me?

Also, maybe contact Privateer for permission to use Type-XIV Milk Cow Model (AKA: Fat Bottom Girl) as AI-Resupply Vessel.

mookiemookie

04-11-11, 06:33 PM

Unless you're order to support a special mission (Bismarck, Invasion of Norway, Drumbeat) the campaign goals should always be the same, IMO - sink merchant tonnage. As much as you can. The idea of sinking a specific type or number of ships is not really historical.

THE_MASK

04-11-11, 06:39 PM

What i like about the campaign in sh5 is that people can work on black may . Someone else can work on happy times etc .

StarTrekMike

04-11-11, 10:24 PM

I for one would love a reworked campaign, I think going to a SH3 style or even a SH4 style game would be best.

I like the special missions you get in SH4, they never seemed like a stupid use for a submarine to me and you could always go back to sinking tonnage after without feeling like you are not following what the game wants.

It would be nice if we just did not need to hunt warships...that is just silly.

Mike

Ducimus

04-11-11, 10:35 PM

I like the special missions you get in SH4, they never seemed like a stupid use for a submarine to me and you could always go back to sinking tonnage after without feeling like you are not following what the game wants.

Trouble with that, as far as the ATO is concerned, is historical accuracy, if one was to be overly concerned about it. Frankly, I have the impression all most people want from their Uboat game, is a set of grid coordinates.

dcb

04-12-11, 12:25 AM

Zedi

04-12-11, 01:36 AM

I was expecting much more hate/passion over this subject as the campaign is the core of the game. Is what keep us playing or leaving.

I am disturbed to find the lack of missions on a U-Boat Class/Flotilla basis. The Campaign has Specific Missions. Those Missions may or may not require special feature of a U-Boat, such as range ability. This prevents using, say, Type-II(When/If available) during the Western Approaches Date/Time era because no missions exits during that time that the Type-II class would be able to complete.

Not sure I understand what you mean by flotilla basis missions. Its all about go out, sink stuff. Only Drumbeat was a special operation where you should have a special boat, the type IX.. but there is no such a boat in the game, so...

Re-Supply at sea(Why so stingy). Did Type-VII U-Boats really act as re-supply vessel for other Type-VII u-boats? Were these resupply U-Boats new skippers on training missions?
Maybe only use Surface Resupply Ships until after dates that the Type-XIV Milk Cows were deployed. My history knowlege is weak in this area but something does not seem right. If I use most of my fuel to deploy to patrol area, how is same clsss boat going to be waiting there with weapons and fuel for me?

Same thing.. we have only 2-3 type of boats modeled in the game, love it hate it. If anyone will manage to import or build ships for SH5, then we can talk about this subject in details. But replacing the u-boats with tankers is not a good option as they have a big chance to be destroyed by the enemy traffic before we meet them. They not just spawn in certain areas, they really live and sail, pls read further:

These days I found out why we have time by time issues with the resupply and tbh, it was a very nice surprise. If is anything brilliant in SH5, thats the campaign, its a really amazing piece of work.

The supply ships/milkcows are "living" things! That means, they patrol the sea for a very long time period and then head back to base for refit. This is the reason why many times the resupply is denied. If is no supply ship in the area, its logical to be denied on the resupply request, but if is one close enough you will have his coordinate.

There are about 3 supply ship constantly patrolling the seas trying to cover a huge map, they go from N Atlantic down to south, back in North Sea and return to base. And this sounds very realistic and historical to me. And do not forget, they can be eliminated by the enemy if they encounter a task force. And as far as I know, there were only 10 milkcows in ww2 and a couple of tankers, the most hunted ships in that era. So this part is not a bug, but a feature. A nice one.
Read more here (http://www.uboat.net/types/milkcows.htm)

What i like about the campaign in sh5 is that people can work on black may . Someone else can work on happy times etc .

Except Mare Nostrum. Reworking that campaign needs a team. The devs were very proud about that particular campaign as it show the power of the new dynamic campaign engine, but the goals are pulled of from a Hollywood script, not from reality. A single sub hunting Force XYZ is just hilarious. And thats all about in MN.

I for one would love a reworked campaign, I think going to a SH3 style or even a SH4 style game would be best.

I like the special missions you get in SH4, they never seemed like a stupid use for a submarine to me and you could always go back to sinking tonnage after without feeling like you are not following what the game wants.

It would be nice if we just did not need to hunt warships...that is just silly.

Well, not sure which part are you talking abut. The stock campaign or the one from GWX. The stock campaign made me to drop SH3 just after few months. Go out and patrol 1 area for X hours is just .. boring. Do not forget, no campaign in SH5 is forcing you to complete it. None. If you feel like, just go out and patrol, the campaign will still complete and give you access to another one, with some exceptions.. for example to have acces to the Drumbeat campaign you need to finish all the missions in Western Approaches.

But thats correct, hunting capital ships is silly. If we encounter one and we engage it, should be our call, not a mission objective. Also hunting a particular ship in the world oceans.. thats just crazy. Is what Ive done in Open Horizons, remove every capital ship hunt and replacing them with missions more appropriate for a submarine. Hard ones that makes you bleed.

Just curious.. in Total Germany, instead of hunting a carrier in the middle of nowhere what would be a better option? Just having a tonnage mission in the same area?

Obelix

04-12-11, 01:54 AM

I was expecting much more hate/passion over this subject as the campaign is the core of the game. Is what keep us playing or leaving.
For example, I simply weakly expressed his attitude to the campaign SH5. The whole campaign is complete nonsense:damn:, except, perhaps, the "Black May." I say again - the campaign must be completely rewritten from the beginning!:rock:

robbythesub

04-12-11, 01:57 AM

I think the Campaign area is superb, including mare nostrom, but I think that the objectives are rather ridiculous in terms of needing to sink 2 aircraft carriers, battleships etc.

The other issue which is generally missing in the game and was in SH3 too, is the receipt of radio messages, which I realise are historic, but meaningless in pursuit of the mission objectives.

I would find the receipt of orders that one has to act on during the campaign to be the most meaningful and realistic addition that could be made (in addition to the superb work done so far).

:yep:

Zedi

04-12-11, 02:21 AM

..

The other issue which is generally missing in the game and was in SH3 too, is the receipt of radio messages, which I realise are historic, but meaningless in pursuit of the mission objectives.

...

This was my biggest fail in Open Horizons. I just cannot figure out how to send messages on different layers. Every mission in OH include a radio message sent to the player when the mission become available. But to pull this out simply with events and triggers is not working in the campaign. :nope: Still looking for an answer/solution...

jwilliams

04-12-11, 03:27 AM

Im curious to find out what you guys like/dislike in SH5 campaign. For example, among many others, my biggest frustration was generated by 3 missions: the carrier from TG, the BB from op. Weserubung and the 5 troop transport from Winstons special. Most stupid mission, hunting a HK group in BP. Most annoying campaign, MNostrum.

So how you imagine a good SH campaign, what was good, what can be improved etc.

/discuss

I want if to be realistic. But yet I have no idea what orders the uboats had.

I also have not got far into the campaign, But I've read alot in these forums about how you have to sink X amout of Y ship.

I know that I dont want goals like sink 6 of this type of ship. (As I very much doubt that uboats had orders to go sink 6 troop transporters).

I liked how it was in SH3 (go patrol quadrant CE for 72hrs)
And maybe add a few spy drop offs or similar. (As IMO this feels more realistic)

Oh I'd like to see that annoying tutorial from the start removed too.

Are you going to mod the campaign??? I hope so. But I understand that this is alot of work.

Sbygneus

04-12-11, 03:31 AM

I think I dislike that the game tries to simulate Battle of Atlantic in general only. I guess most people like the idea of free campaign, wolfpacks, sinking tonage. This is all good but I regret there are no subtle planned missions in the game exept for one or two photo shots. I would like to:
1. Set the automatic weather stations/deploy weather baloons in the Arctic, supply secret bases
2. rescue missions, desant agents
3. demolish costal facilities with deck gun, attack allied weather stations for example
4. mining
5. some fictional missions would be appreciated :): delivering nazi gold somewhere, firing rockets at New York harbour, taxi Hitler to secret Nazi Antarctic base in May 1945 :03:

Rongel

04-12-11, 03:48 AM

I have to say that I like the SH 5 dynamic campaign and find it much more interesting than just the patrol area x -missions. There are expections though, like the sink carrier in Total Germany. I haven't tried the infamous Mare Nostrum yet... Anyway, it would be really great to have improved campaign mod.

The supply ships/milkcows are "living" things! That means, they patrol the sea for a very long time period and then head back to base for refit. This is the reason why many times the resupply is denied. If is no supply ship in the area, its logical to be denied on the resupply request, but if is one close enough you will have his coordinate.
Wow, I didn't know this! It sounds realistic now, but could we have more of those ships to increase the possibility for the resupply? I guess the propability for a resupply now is really really low. Increasing it may compromise realism but I think gaming experience is equally important too.

Zedi

04-12-11, 04:02 AM

..
Are you going to mod the campaign??? I hope so. But I understand that this is alot of work.

Not yet. Just talking about to see what people would like to have in the campaigns, mostly like a reference for a upcoming project. What I could do alone is to replace the hunt of capital ships with tonnage war.

Also, Im very tempted to put the Bismarck into the campaign, but I have no idea how to script the battle with the royal navy and keep things under control. Would be nice to get a urgent message about Bismarck being chased and asked to assist, but Im afraid that is kinda impossible to keep up the speed with a rushing BB. But I really wanna see a mission where we can witness a huge battle between 2 enemy surface taskforce. Im really curious to find out what 2 or more enemy elite BB will do when they cross each other path...

...
Wow, I didn't know this! It sounds realistic now, but could we have more of those ships to increase the possibility for the resupply? I guess the propability for a resupply now is really really low. Increasing it may compromise realism but I think gaming experience is equally important too.

Thats why is imperative to plan your trip and fuel consumption. There are only few supply ships available and they are very busy and also hunted. Keep that in mind when go out on patrol.

Tronics

04-12-11, 04:30 AM

Mare Nostrum's 'assassination' missions.

Ex, go to this wrongly labeled enemy patrol area and sink X battleships.

Completely absurd.

To complete do the following:

Just go patrol in zigzags on the incoming shallows off of Gibraltar and sink the incoming BB's and CV's there, it will count for mission credit for Force H and Malta Supplies.

Theres usually a RoyalSov patrol incoming about once every 7 days, and typically theres a CV incoming around that time +- a day as well.

I'm still trying to find another CV for the Malta supplies, and then to go find the routes for the two Force A BB's floating about in the east somewhere.

StarTrekMike

04-12-11, 09:10 AM

It would be interesting if you could have more of a sense of "moral" in the game, have missions that show the desperation that was felt early in the war when the Kriegsmarine did not have nearly enough ships to fight the royal navy but had to go out anyway.

During "the happy time" we could see the cautious arrogance that was felt as ships were hitting the bottom but not as fast has they needed too.

I guess you guys probably see where I am going with this, the game is really good at presenting a setting by putting you in a U-boat with a crew that you can interact with.

It only needs to work on feeling like you are part of a larger picture both in the war effort and morale wise.

Mike

Rongel

04-12-11, 10:36 AM

Oh, one more thing. If this should happen it would be nice if the improved campaign could include also the icebergs, mines and subnets mods. Kind of like the "Campaing Megamod". Am I asking too much?

What I could do alone is to replace the hunt of capital ships with tonnage war.
That sounds pretty good already! Attacking a capital ship with 5-6 destroyers is a suicide mission. Sinking the 3 armed merchants in Total Germany was kind of fun, I would keep that.

Zedi

04-12-11, 12:23 PM

stoianm

04-12-11, 12:28 PM

Right now Im waiting for TDW return and his improved mines and nets, then the mod is ready to release. This will include icebergs, mines and nets for all campaigns but also improved harbor defense in all campaigns, no more easy camping ports for easy tonnage. Its amazing to see that Scapa has only 3 (!) destroyers patrolling the area, now this is fixed.

I could change the capital ship hunt with tonnage missions for now if the majority want it, except MNostrum where is way to much to work for a single person.
thanks for your work and your time.. yor work is very important because make the game more immersive... and i think is a good ideea to change the capital ship hunt with tonnage... i dunno if the submariners had special task like to hunt a capital ship in real:hmmm:... i think that they just go on the ocean and hunt what they were capable to catch on theyr periscope, radar or hydrophone

Txema

04-12-11, 12:31 PM

I could change the capital ship hunt with tonnage missions for now if the majority want it, except MNostrum where is way to much to work for a single person.

That would be a very good change, in my opinion.

:up:

Txema

mr chris

04-12-11, 01:13 PM

Zedi

04-12-11, 01:52 PM

The current campaign style in SH5, Is totally borked beyond belief.
A total redesign in needed.
Was one of the main reasons i lost interest in the game so fast.
That and the total disgrace that was the amount of merchant ships in game.

Dont just say .. its broken and thats it. Elaborate a bit more, what do you like, what do you hate, why and how do you see a redesign. Every opinion counts.

Captain Joe

04-12-11, 02:09 PM

dcb

04-12-11, 02:17 PM

I'll repost here what I posted about the campaign in February, in another thread, so sorry for the deja-vu sensation, but it has its place in this thread about the stock campaign:

I played three missions and completed the British Supplies part of the game, about sinking 50 K tons.
In all three missions I never saw one escort. Period. Nobody came at me after sinking ships 50 km off the Brit coast, no plane, no destroyer, nobody. And each of these guys radioed for help... Patrolling on surface in the range of Brit airbases, I was only attacked by 2 planes, which I was able to avoid easily.
In the last mission, I sunk a totally unescorted convoy (6 ships), some 100 km off the British coast. Two hours after the attack, still nobody cared to answer their calls for help.
That's because no air and sea patrols got scripted in the campaign layers.

Add to this the fantasy missions about sinking carriers, the whopping tonnage objectives - everything that's been already said by others in this thread...

Bottom line, I second what Mr. Chris said earlier: "borked beyond belief"

mr chris

04-12-11, 02:34 PM

Dont just say .. its broken and thats it. Elaborate a bit more, what do you like, what do you hate, why and how do you see a redesign. Every opinion counts.

Well i can tell you that i like bugger all about the current campaign in SH5.

What i would have love to have seen with regards to the campaign. Is that they had built on the campaign from SH3 /SH4.
All that was needed was to add to the campaign with little things like adding in the ability to have a comms link to BDU in game that actually works like it did in real life. Like during the war at certain periods like during the lead up to the abortive Operation Sealion. Bdu would send the odd Homeward bound boat to a position to report the weather. Or getting sent to home in beacon signals from another boat who is shadowing a convoy.

Or adding Special missions like having to land Abwehr agents, or looking for survivors from the Bismark sinking if you are in the correct area at the time of the incident.

Fully integrated all U - Boat Types and Variants , U - Flotillas and areas of operation from the full duration of the war. Such as Indian Ocean , Black Sea , Mediterranean.

If the above can be added to a nearly full degree with mods in SH3 why they are not in SH5 is a complete mystery to me.

Finally to make a good campaign you need plenty of shipping and variety of shipping. Just take a look at the number of ships that are available via mods in SH3 / SH4 these days, The are so so many.

This needs to addressed big time one of my major gripes with SH5 apart from the campaign was the dearth of different merchant ship classes. The is only so long that you can carry on sinking the same 5 types of merchant.

So there you have it a small list but im sure if thought a little longer i would come up with some more. But im sure the are many others around here that will have some great ideas to help make a good campaign for SH5.

Zedi

04-13-11, 02:53 AM

Not sure if its possible but a random mission popping up when on patrol at times and if close enough can accept, sometimes you wait for many game days/weeks and no contacts, a type of side mission would be good to maybe break the boredom of patrolling in mission area only.

I think this is very doable. I finished twice the whole SH5 campaign and the overall feeling was that Im all alone, that this is MY war and I fight against the whole world. Is like playing a pirate game where my objective is to hunt ships all by myself.

So I will try to bring more life in the game by launching the kriegsmarine at the sea. The SH5 campaign is full with allied traffic, but almost no german taskforces around except the shore.

I did a quick test to see how the AI will behave when encounter the enemy on surface, here is the result posted on screenies topic (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1641742&postcount=2294). The germans are deadly precise and I had a great feeling seeing this short battle taking place, the feeling that Im not alone anymore and Im a soldier, not a mercenary or pirate.

robbythesub

04-13-11, 04:17 AM

This was my biggest fail in Open Horizons. I just cannot figure out how to send messages on different layers. Every mission in OH include a radio message sent to the player when the mission become available. But to pull this out simply with events and triggers is not working in the campaign. :nope: Still looking for an answer/solution...

Thanks Zedi- I hope someone can find a result for this as it would really change the game :up:

robbythesub

04-13-11, 04:22 AM

I have to say that I like the SH 5 dynamic campaign and find it much more interesting than just the patrol area x -missions. There are expections though, like the sink carrier in Total Germany. I haven't tried the infamous Mare Nostrum yet... Anyway, it would be really great to have improved campaign mod.

Wow, I didn't know this! It sounds realistic now, but could we have more of those ships to increase the possibility for the resupply? I guess the propability for a resupply now is really really low. Increasing it may compromise realism but I think gaming experience is equally important too.

The Milk cow thing is news to me too! I have yet to ever get re supplied is campaign mode which is what I always play in.
Are we saying that there is re supply in the game at certain times when near a Milk cow?

If so I will have to try since I had given up thinking it did not exist and was maybe part of a future expansion pack planned by ubisoft?
:shifty:

Zedi

04-13-11, 05:00 AM

There are supply ships, but as I said.. they travel. A lot. But if there is one in you area of operation when you request the resupply, he will give you the rendezvous coordinates. So nobody deny your request and this is not a bug. Simply, the ship is just to far from you.

Maybe we should rephrase the radio guys answer from "sorry, they denied our request" into "sorry, the ship is out of range".

robbythesub

04-13-11, 05:20 AM

Yes that would make the situation more clear for users I reckon. Can it be done I wonder?

I will keep trying then from now.

Are there any in the Mare Nostrum area do you know?

Dignan

04-13-11, 06:46 AM

I think this is very doable. I finished twice the whole SH5 campaign and the overall feeling was that Im all alone, that this is MY war and I fight against the whole world. Is like playing a pirate game where my objective is to hunt ships all by myself.

So I will try to bring more life in the game by launching the kriegsmarine at the sea. The SH5 campaign is full with allied traffic, but almost no german taskforces around except the shore.

I did a quick test to see how the AI will behave when encounter the enemy on surface, here is the result posted on screenies topic (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1641742&postcount=2294). The germans are deadly precise and I had a great feeling seeing this short battle taking place, the feeling that Im not alone anymore and Im a soldier, not a mercenary or pirate.

This has always been a problem with the SH series. No sense of any other subs or allied ships being "out there with you." However, sometimes I still wonder if they are there but you just don't often see them because the ocean is a BIG place.

Only a few times have I encountered allied ships but I have.

1. In SH4 I've tracked targets, set up solutions and all but fired the torpedo when I saw that it was actually a New Zealand or Russian merchant.

2. In SH5 I once saw a German merchant transiting the English Channel heading west. Not sure what he was doing but I noticed he was getting attacked by British planes. I made the decision to man the flak guns and head towards the ship's position to assist. Unfortunately, it was sunk by the planes before I could get there.

3. And my all time most immersive moment....in SH4 about halfway between Pearl and Japan I ran into a US Task Force with about 3 carriers, some cruisers and a handful of destroyers heading West towards Japanese waters. It was awesome. I surfaced and joined the parade for a while but it was too costly on my fuel consumption and eventually let them press on their high speed.

So, I think allied ships are out there but I think if someone is able to mod the campaign layer to add more it would definitely add to the immersiveness of the game.

Zedi

04-13-11, 07:31 AM

The situation is a bit different here as it was with US in Pacific, the german navy was much more limited in numbers:

Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was only allowed a minimal navy of 15,000 personnel, six capital ships of no more than 10,000 tons, six cruisers, twelve destroyers, twelve torpedo boats and no submarines. However, even before the Nazi takeover German naval rearmament had begun with the launching of the first pocket battleship, Deutschland in 1931.[citation needed]

When the Nazis came to power in 1933, Adolf Hitler soon began to ignore many of the Treaty restrictions and accelerated German rearmament. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 18 June 1935 allowed Germany to build a navy equivalent to 35% of British surface ship tonnage and 45% of British submarine tonnage; battleships were to be limited to no more than 35,000 tons. That same year the Reichsmarine was renamed as the Kriegsmarine.

.....

Countless failures infuriated Hitler, who nearly enforced a decision to scrap the surface fleet. Instead, resources were diverted to new U-boats, and the surface fleet became a lesser threat to the Allies.

Read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine).

So the Kriegsmarine was some kinda Failmarine at surface and also outnumbered by the allied fleet. But even so, the german presence in campaign is very low, mostly around harbours. I try to learn how the campaign engine generates the ships and how they are routed, so maybe I can increase the german fleet presence. But so far, I see that the ship routes are purely random, they never follow a path twice. And ingame, they can be sunk, damaged etc.. and this makes things more complicate and hard to control.

The battle for Narvik and Battle of the Barents Sea even if is implemented in the campaign, is badly done.. we can barely see any taskforce and major military movement in the area. Im playing with these setting, but only the testing part require huge amount of time. Is why I said that this is not a 1 man work. In the end I will replace the capital ship hunt with tonnage war and thats that.

ETsd4

04-13-11, 07:52 AM

German WWII-u-boat-missions:

http://uimgz.com/i/C9G4R27z9F4g8.jpg

120MB => http://www.filesonic.com/file/188395091/U-BoatMissions.rar

TheBeast

04-13-11, 04:10 PM

Here is the beautiful AI Fat Bottomed Girl viewed in Goblin Editor App. by Privateer
This will be a very welcome sight to any U-Boat Commander on a long cruise.
Only Armaments are Flak Guns.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=255&pictureid=4034

I have been trying to work on the Damage and Collusion Models.
Not making any progress. I have never done any work in this area before.

The Model may be usable as it is for Resupply-Vessel. It renders in the SHV Museum without any issues.

Zedi

04-13-11, 05:06 PM

Here is the beautiful AI Fat Bottomed Girl viewed in Goblin Editor App. by Privateer
This will be a very welcome sight to any U-Boat Commander on a long cruise.
Only Armaments are Flak Guns.

I have been trying to work on the Damage and Collusion Models.
Not making any progress. I have never done any work in this area before.

The Model may be usable as it is for Resupply-Vessel. It renders in the SHV Museum without any issues.

Nice!
So this means she cannot be destroyed/damaged and she will go through objects.. or?

TheBeast

04-13-11, 07:39 PM

Nice!
So this means she cannot be destroyed/damaged and she will go through objects.. or?

No. It has a damage collusion model but they just are not as they should be. They just require some adjustments.

mobucks

04-13-11, 09:03 PM

Agreed with Duchi, grid map would be awesome. Also the non tonnage missions like in SH4 were cool, like taking photos or rescuing downed pilots.

StarTrekMike

04-13-11, 10:21 PM

Mine laying missions would be interesting in the early stages of the war, this was the not the most effective or desirable mission but if we could make that work than it would be very immersive.

I agree, the grid map would make things much more comfortable for us Sh3 skippers who probably spent more than a few minutes marking good hunting grounds on the map that came with the game.

Hope this keeps going!

Mike

Salvadoreno

04-13-11, 11:00 PM

This has always been a problem with the SH series. No sense of any other subs or allied ships being "out there with you." However, sometimes I still wonder if they are there but you just don't often see them because the ocean is a BIG place.

Only a few times have I encountered allied ships but I have.

1. In SH4 I've tracked targets, set up solutions and all but fired the torpedo when I saw that it was actually a New Zealand or Russian merchant.

2. In SH5 I once saw a German merchant transiting the English Channel heading west. Not sure what he was doing but I noticed he was getting attacked by British planes. I made the decision to man the flak guns and head towards the ship's position to assist. Unfortunately, it was sunk by the planes before I could get there.

3. And my all time most immersive moment....in SH4 about halfway between Pearl and Japan I ran into a US Task Force with about 3 carriers, some cruisers and a handful of destroyers heading West towards Japanese waters. It was awesome. I surfaced and joined the parade for a while but it was too costly on my fuel consumption and eventually let them press on their high speed.

So, I think allied ships are out there but I think if someone is able to mod the campaign layer to add more it would definitely add to the immersiveness of the game.

The tonnage war sounds beautiful. Glad people are working hard on sh5. In a couple years who knows where it will go.

I haven't played much sh5 but I basically have the same complaints others to. Grid map, immersion,campaign layers, no freindly ai. Though I agree that the german navy was mostly bottled up they still have some sorties. Admiral hipper gne, spee, deustcheland, etc... Plus the norway battles and artic battles. I'd love to catch a raid on a freindly port also. Ie leaving brest in late 1943 and seeiing lancasters come on their bombing missions.

Though it was very small one of the most exciting moments in sh3 for me was using nygm some years ago. I was homebound in mediterranean and ran into a small convoy. Upon closer inspection it was a italian/german convoy on its way back from tripoli giving supplies to rommel!! I decided to join it on my homebound journey for some extra protection (it has 2 german destroyers escorting it). As we passed some miles away from malta british aircraft attacked! The destoyers merchants and my uboat opened up on the menace! It was incredibly intense and an amazing experience! I was forced to dive because one of the planes targetted me, I lost visual contact with the conoy but I know one merchantmen was hit during the battle. After some time underwater I listened via hydrophones to the freindly convoy and picked up an even more dismal sound.. Brit destroyers must have been called on were on their way from the east. I didn't have freellook on so I had no idea to fate of convoy. Things like that are what sh series great! But its always "if" these things can be achieved, they are never implmented without modding. Which is sad.

Zedi

04-14-11, 01:56 AM

I agree that the AI vs AI battles are absolutely awesome. I had witness many battle like this and there was no mod to control it, it just happens. The most impressive was in MNostrum where the Luftwaffe regularly raid Malta, here is a picture from a longer set I posted a while ago...the whole port was in flames like a mini Pearl Harbour.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//picture.php?albumid=385&pictureid=3079

So this is where I try to adjust things for now. The traffic is huge in SH5, but mostly on the allied side. Now I try to increase the kriegsmarine traffic including taskforces, so we can feel that we are part of a war and not some lonely pirates. Problem is ... there is not much room for german traffic, at early war there are only few german active ports and not much destination to send german convoys.

I also set up few fast generic destroyer raiders whom will hit the brit coast, but Im not sure how realistic is this and also.. they may steal our targets. They can decimate a whole convoy in just few minutes, then leave. And having a balance it requires a lot of testing.

Anyway, redoing the campaign and implementing all these great ideas written down here it require a team without any doubt, like GWX was. And even so, would take months.

Salvadoreno

04-14-11, 05:56 PM

Dagoland

04-14-11, 07:45 PM

In my humble opinion, the SH5 with all the mods installed, is an excellent simulator, almost as good as SH3, with the MOD IRAI 0_0_30 installed, IA of the Allies is incredible, in the mission to sink five merchant ships and an aircraft carrier, I found 500 km off the west coast of Ireland, was sailing towards the English channel, and the Bdu reported by radio that a Task Force was headed England . Then I went in the direction to intercept the Task Force at night, and was a Sovereign-class battleship, escorted by a circle of 9 destroyers, I set out to attack the battleship, and I could sink with three beautiful torpedoes, then I went very deep and silent, was indiscriptible what happened on the surface, while the battleship sank slowly, all the destroyers fired flares, and also the red flare of the battleship, thanks to the MOD FX update for The Dark Wraith, I had been searching for 60 minutes without success, when I thought that had eluded all the destroyers, then separated enough, and one of them is me at 60 minutes after it launched the 3 torpedoes, and calls to the remaining 8 and formed a circle around my Sub ... Speechless ..... .. i was 12 hours around trying to evade them, until I escape, and they were still there, I lost count of the charges thrown at me, but I went there with the hull at 30% and all damage .
That only happened to me in the SH3 with Grey Wolves expancion.

I think SH5 Artificial Intelligence, with the mods listed, I believe in my humble opinion, the SH5 accomplished what he needed most IA.
All this mixed with a good dynamic campaign as in the SH3 and SH4, but I think the SH4 despite being in the Pacific, to me is better designed than the SH3, it shows in this latest one is not alone fighting in the war.

Hopefully we see uan dynamic campaign in SH5:yeah:

Excuse my English:88)

robbythesub

04-15-11, 02:36 AM

Lets hope SH6 goes back to the pacific with the latest concepts and more from SH5 ! :03:

Zedi

04-15-11, 03:55 AM

I don't want to step on your toes their zedi, but I'm pretty certain no german destroyers made sorties on british coastal ports nor any brit port for that matter. After the norweigan naval operation (forgot name) in april 40 the german navy was even smaller than when it started. I don't know if your going for realism or just fun but you could set up some historical german task focres. Ie norweigan naval operations, pocketbattleship raiders, aux raiders, bismarck, tirpitz, etc... Some operations in meditter too. Then again these would be scripted and I don't know how you would feel about that. What would make it more immersive if these were augmented by bdu radio traffic!

I made few small coastal german raiders for the early war stages, but I think your right... I will pull them off. Is just I find it a bit weird that only subs were sent to raid the brit coast. But how about the Luftwaffe? Sending planes to raid the brit ports would be also unrealistic?

Speaking about the Op Weserubung and battle for Narvik, its all there and is made very historical accurate. The german fleet is set to move out on the exact date with and actually every major battle is present in the campaign. And I see also Bismarck moving out in 41. Is just hard to catch them in action as they move fast and they are not following a very precise path.

Sbygneus

04-15-11, 10:42 AM

In my opinion, crew morale system fix is needed to fully enjoy SH5. It looks like game designers planned to make morale issues key factor in SH5 gameplay. Whether they havent finished the idea or simply failed to do it - I dont know. However I cant imagine tension in SH5 (and any other submarine simulation) without fixing crew morale system and its impact on crew's capabilities and behaviour.
As for me, the original Ubisoft's idea of crew morale simulation was exellent thing. I would like to play sailors and officers, not the filingless biological gears nad valves. Only then I could feel myself like the captain. Its sad that game designers havent finished this aspect of SH5. All those wasted special abilities, poor dialogs :damn: Good morale system alone would make hunting so much more exciting!

mustacheman

04-20-11, 09:56 AM

Hi Zedi, i´ve been lurking for some time but your thread prompted me to register. What I´d like to see in SH5 campains is some historical accuracy. I mean operating in a wolfpack or having orders to follow a convoy to guide other packmembers thats what the typical orders for uboat-crews were. The BdU never issued specific tonnage orders (Sink 50.000 tons) because he never knew if a certain boat even met the enemy. To locate an enemy convoi in a vast ocean is no easy feat and would have been impossible if any uboat-captain headed to where he wanted to.
I´d like to see some decent German AI. So that there is a chance that AI-boats attack and pull away the escorts.
I´d like to see the BdU order boats back to their position if they left it for no good reason. Some might find it very boring to patrol an area as part of a wolfpack - and nothing happens cause no convoi comes along. But that´s how things were.
Ever read "Das Boot" by Buchheim? Whole chapters go on about the colour of the air and sea - because nothing happens. An other interesting book is "Ali Cremer" (CO of U-333 and later one of the new XXI boats - don´t know if it´s available in english). In it it´s clearly illustrated how much punishment Type VII boats could take and that part of the job was WAITING for the enemy to show up (and from Black May onwards the job was to survive). You see, I´m becoming sidetracked. The stock campains are simply rubbish. Just my 2 cents. See/read you!

Zedi

04-20-11, 10:48 AM

You guys fail to understand a simple thing. Nothing in the new dynamic campaign is mandatory. These missions are optional. Even going out and ignoring all the missions, the campaign will still continue .. is not like you failed to complete a mission, you are unable to progress. Not at all. Take those missions as Prien took the Donitz idea of raiding Scapa. So is like choosing being a hero or a casual noob.

Now there is one thing that is kinda bugged in SH5 campaign. The radio messaging system. Tried all kinda tricks to bring back the radio messages and link them to the dynamic campaign, so the event reported are for real and not just some scripted messages like was in GWX. Took me a while to realize that there is no way to send out messages at a precise date and hour because the devs wanted to change the system but seems like they had no time to finish it.

Seems like the plan was to control the whole radio traffic through the radio guy. So he will receive the message from Bdu then he will inform you through the dialog or log panel. Then you should have several options, like respond or ignore the message.. or who know, maybe even compose your own message. I still try to experiment with the classic triggers and events system to bring up some radio messages, but there is little chance that this will work, the whole messaging system is scripted into the campaign engine.

I reworked a bit the Total Germany campaign, so when you are on some special missions like huntin a carrier or some capital ships, the Bdu will actually help with intel and you should see on map reports about your target location. Not sure how this will work with real nav.

The extended campaign Open Horizons is about surviving for sure. And the missions in that campaign are made for subs, not for battleships. Its a very hard campaign played on high realism.

TheDarkWraith

04-20-11, 11:21 AM

If you're using my UIs mod I intercept ALL radio messages and route them to the new radio messages box. Is it possible that they are showing up there and not where you are expecting :06:

Zedi

04-20-11, 12:50 PM

As far as I see, the messages we get are scripted, except the periscope sighted and ship sunk ones. The rest, based on historical events and some distant battles and convoy routes are from the radiomessages.txt and they have delays. I got messaged from D-Day a week before the events, posted once a screen about.

But sending messages at a precise date and hour is impossible in the campaign. Maybe with your .dll injection, but not with ME. I posted about this issue here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=1642532&postcount=50).

Kapitan_Kaput

04-24-11, 10:47 AM

just a thought but I'd like to see historical and fictional missions involving the testing and use of Wundewaffe like the experimental u-boat launched guided anti-ship missles...etc., but I realize this involves more than a campaign re-write :shifty:

THE_MASK

04-24-11, 07:31 PM

Zedi

04-25-11, 02:22 AM

What would be good is random sub net / mines positions etc . Take scapa flow for example . If you could place the nets and mines so that they are ramdomly placed within a defined realistic area . Every time you enter the area you wouldnt know exactly where they are . Good for replayability . I only just realised that if i placed a ship on the map and didnt want it , i just click on it and hit delete key .

Your wish is already granted. But I will wait a bit longer with the release of the mod Im working on as things shaping up faster that I can implement them.

Regarding the randomness.. I cannot do that in Scapa, that place is very crowdy and too much nets can seriously mess with the traffic. But trust me, even if I will draw you the exact position of every single nets in theat area, you will still have hard time to find them. Even if I make them to report position, will be hard to spot them.

I think I will announce a WIP about this mod, so people will know that something nice is shaping up.

Church SUBSIM

04-25-11, 10:40 PM

For me, the biggest flaw in SHV is the complete lack of the Kreigsmarine coordinate system ((AN, AM, BF, etc) aka the grid). The fact that it was not included in the release is amazing. I am pretty sure that with a multitude of breakthroughs in the modding community of late, this is something that can be tackled and added. I just wish I knew how to do it.

Like others have said, the u-boats main task was to sink merchants. I would love to see a campaign like we had in SH3 ... go to this grid, search and sink merchants.

Zedi

04-26-11, 02:43 AM

....
Like others have said, the u-boats main task was to sink merchants. I would love to see a campaign like we had in SH3 ... go to this grid, search and sink merchants.

I have to repeat again. Nobody force you to do the missions in the SH5 campaign. You can still advance in the career and be able to play every campaign in the game. The difference is just the ending screen and your rating... NoName or Prien. So if you enjoy the SH3 play style, just go out and set up a personal patrol area, then ignore all missions and objectives. You will still have a lot of fun provided by the game excellent dynamic campaign.

The missing grid map missing its a shame, but not much to do about now because as far as I know you need to work it out in the .exe.. its hardcoded.

Church SUBSIM

04-26-11, 12:47 PM

No Zedi, I get what you are saying, I do. It's just when you are given the task to sink something (because a developer puts it in there) I at least feel like if I don't do it, I have somehow not completed the mission, even if I do and can move on to further campaigns. I was just more or less expressing my thoughts.

You are right, we are free to play as we see fit. I would just loved to have seen a SH3 style of mission generation.

In regards to the Kreigsmarine map, I have a feeling that it TDW focuses his attention on it (or anyone else that has a solid understanding of how the .exe works) we can see it become a reality. The grid is in there, it's just not being used.

Zedi

04-26-11, 01:41 PM

I agree with you, missions and achievements are addictive. But also fun if it has no ridiculous requirements. Like is Mare Nostrum filled with missions designed for a warship, not a sub. Just shadowing a taskforce is an epic fail as you can never keep up the speed with them.

But some missions are pretty realistic. I mentioned once the mission from Total Germany with the carrier hunt. At first glance, the mission is just stupid. But after few readings I realized that mission is based on true stories:

14/09/1939 - U39 attacks a battle group led by the Aircraft Carrier, HMS Ark Royal. She fires torpedo’s at the carrier, but these miss. 3 Destroyer’s of the Ark Royal’s escort, launch an immediate counter-attack against U39 and sink her with depth charges. U39 gains the dubious honour of becoming the first U-boat to be sunk in the war.

................

17/09/1939 - The Aircraft Carrier HMS Courageous is torpedoed by U29 (Kapitanleutnant Schuhart) south-west of Ireland, killing 515, but 687 sailors survive.

So what I would suggest is this.. go out and set up a patrol route in a mission area. If by any chance you will track down and sunk one of the mission targets, the fun will be double. If not, just hunt whatever gets close.

Anyway, in the mod with mines &stuff I try to rework a bit each mission and double check them by reading various ww2 timeline reports, even day by day logs. I wanna remove any fantasy scenarios and adjust the ones that stress the player.. like finding a single ship without having any clue where to do that. Bdu will be more active and will send the players more intel from now on.

Zedi

04-28-11, 12:06 PM

...
I would just loved to have seen a SH3 style of mission generation.
...
I was thinking a lot these days about wtf to do with the campaign, what kind of replacement to add to the stupid "hunt the capital" ship missions. And also make the old grid patrol available again for the old vet SH fans.

So hows this... instead of giving you a grid to patrol, Bdu gives an area of operation. To give an example.. the carrier hunt from TG will become a "patrol the designated area and sink xyz tons or ships". You may get in you sight the carrier that roam the area and that will add more fun to your mission. How is this sound? And whats best.. sink xy tons or sink xy ships?

dcb

04-28-11, 02:00 PM

So hows this... instead of giving you a grid to patrol, Bdu gives an area of operation. To give an example.. the carrier hunt from TG will become a "patrol the designated area and sink xyz tons or ships". You may get in you sight the carrier that roam the area and that will add more fun to your mission. How is this sound? And whats best.. sink xy tons or sink xy ships?

This sounds very good, and realistic too. You may even add a warning from BdU about "All Uboat Kaleuns be advised about a carrier TF roaming in your general area," if this is the case. Go for it:up:

Zedi

04-28-11, 02:10 PM

This sounds very good, and realistic too. You may even add a warning from BdU about "All Uboat Kaleuns be advised about a carrier TF roaming in your general area," if this is the case. Go for it:up:

The message part is kinda bugged now, but I will find a way to bring the Bdu messages back. I want these messages again on my screen, I have to make this working again no matter what.

jwilliams

04-29-11, 12:54 AM

I'm unsure about the "Sink X amout of tons" part.

I doubt u-boat were told to sink X amout of tons\ships or anything. I would have thought they were told to go out and sink as much as possible.

SO maybe...

Go out and patrol the designated area.
And have the sink X amout of tons hidden?

You would need an x amount of tons for rewards but dont tell player what they are. But keep them realistic.

Zedi

04-29-11, 02:13 AM

Every mission need to have an achievement, goal. But I will go with something like "sink at least X ships (or X tons) in the patrol area", thats pretty fair. If the campaign will have no goal at all, it will be extremely boring. I wanna make this campaign realistic as much as possible. And now that we will have new ships with less tonnage, this is very doable.

dcb

04-29-11, 08:23 AM

Every mission need to have an achievement, goal.

Here are just a few ideas about achievements, based on my experience with the previous installments of the SH series:
- In SH3, the main mission goal was something like "Patrol the area for 24 hours," then roam freely.
- SH4 came with a different type of main mission, like "Intercept that particular convoy" that left .... yesterday and is heading towards ..." After completing the main mission, the player was assigned a different task (spy insertion, rescue pilot etc.).
- Ops Monsun, a supermod developed by Lurker_HLB specifically for Uboat warfare in Atlantic, mainly had missions based on "Patrol that grid for X hours" then another grid would be assigned upon completion, with a certain amount of tonnage defined as secondary and hidden achievement IIRC.

So, asking the player just to patrol a particular area has been done, and seems most realistic to me, AFAIK. Add to this other kind of hidden objectives (uber tonnage, sinking a certain type of ship), and we'll have something as close to real Uboat warfare as can be. And, if you really can fix the issue of radio messages in campaign, you'll have it as real as can be, given the SH5 hardcoded engine. BTW, you're doing a great job:salute:

iambecomelife

04-29-11, 08:19 PM

I second the comments from everyone who complains about the original objectives. The standard campaign really makes me wonder what kind of research was done for this sim.

Sinking multiple battleships? In reality these were fast-moving, well screened targets that were almost never sunk by subs; the only U-Boat successes against battleships were "Royal Oak" and "Barham". The same goes for carriers; the only full sized carriers sunk were "Eagle", "Ark Royal", and "Courageous".

If every campaign must have an objective, I would recommend that the player be assigned to sink maybe 10,000-15,000 tons of generic shipping. Even that objective is a bit challenging, because so many U-Boats never sank any merchant ships throughout their entire careers. Still, it's better than being ordered to wipe out task forces.

stoianm

05-05-11, 03:19 PM

@zedi... what do you think about this:

1) you are gived an order to go in an special area and to put some mines

2) After you go in that area and put mines the bdu give you orders to go and patrol and sunk ships in the area from that patrol mission

3) something like in the situation when you are send to make a recon photo or to deploy a spy and after that you can continue the patrol

Do you think it is duable? This will be realistic... read here:

On the 5th Sep 1939, U-32 left Kiel under the command of Paul Büchel and after three and a half weeks arrived at return on 30th Sep 1939.
Paul Büchel hit two ships on this patrol.

On 18th Sep 1939 he sank the British 4,863 ton Kensington Court.
On 28th Sep 1939 he sank the Norwegian 875 ton Jern.

U-32 laid mines on this patrol. These mines were hit by 2 ships.
The 8,063 ton British Marwarri was damaged by a mine on 5th Oct 1939.
The 9,462 ton British Lochgoil was damaged by a mine on 6th Oct 1939.You can read more about the Norwegian ship listed for this patrol at www.warsailors.com (http://www.warsailors.com).
Click the link for more information on Jern (http://www.warsailors.com/freefleet/norfleetj.html#jern).

LINK (http://www.ubootwaffe.net/ops/boat.cgi?boat=32)

Zedi

05-05-11, 04:05 PM

How do you plan to lay mines with the sub?

gap

05-05-11, 05:01 PM

How do you plan to lay mines with the sub?

Hi Zedi,
maybe it coud be enough to pass on a set of given waypoints for accomplishing this kind of missions? Not need for being actually laying the mines.
Though it would be nicier having them layed down in you current position by pressing a given hotkey.
I don't know anything about the process you are following for adding mines to the campaign. Are they placed in given positions via Campaign Editor, or do they spread during the campaign, like generic convoys do?
If the second option was true, maybe you could link their placement to the current player's position and input (like pressing a key).
Sorry If I am suggesting undoable or silly things. Just trying to contribute to this brainstorming session! :)

Jaguar

05-05-11, 05:16 PM

Never mind...

Zedi

05-05-11, 05:18 PM

Its not possible with the current game engine.

And the mines are still a big problem right now as they are considered naval units. I can spawn endless amount of mines in a dynamic spawn point, but already at 20 mines there is a major fps loss. And if set them as elite units and Docked=False.. the pc can even freeze when your getting close. Only hope to get them work is in TDW's IRAI, or I will need to reduce their numbers dramatically. But then none will notice their presence.

stoianm

05-05-11, 07:39 PM

How do you plan to lay mines with the sub?
If the sub can drop a spy from uboat... i dunno... but if is not duable just to reach an point and we pretend he put mines?... dunno... if tdw puted parachutes on plane you think is hard to put mines to a uboat?:)

tat501

06-22-11, 05:55 PM

The most annoying thing about the campaign imho is that when you do manage to sink a capital ship, it seems to make no difference at all! They just re-spawn in any event.

I don't know if I'm right about this and as someone said earlier maybe its just the other sister ships of that class that you keep on sinking. It kind of kills the incentive to keep sinking them as you don't feel youre actually altering anything.

That's what annoys me most anyway.

P.S, Zedi, I'd love to see Bismarck in the campaign on that famous run down from the Denmark Straights. The other day, I was playing in Western Approaches on the evening of the 28th May 1941 and suddenly came across a county class heavy cruiser (HMS Dorsetshire??) and a King George V class battleship all alone steaming north from the historical kill site! It must have just been an eerie coincidence but if you could somehow script that sort of thing into the game it would be fantastic. I was amazed they were unescorted though...

haegemon

06-22-11, 11:01 PM

I think usually is forgotten the gameplay objective should be more than to travel and shoot in an Uboat, like "Sail Similator" (alter ego for Flight Simulator ;D). We have to win a war and as captains we do as much as we can. So the objectives should be linked always to the war "outside the sea", offensive and defensive with some special missions. Anyways our actions should influence the Battleground although it can or can't influence historical events (depends if we want it realistic or fiction).

For example germany prepares a disembark in Crete or Norway uboats are deployed to protect a corridor until the operation will end. Disembark completed, cities taken = mission succesful. Omg! now we have to protect our supplies :damn:...patrol area. Any or few loses in our patrol = mission succesful. Belgium fell Paris is awaiting, deploy uboats to cut off British suplies....etc....North Africa supplies, war on the soviets....now to Britain, ops! :damn: fail...american comboys, allies kick ass and disembark in Sicily...allies pretend to disembark in Calais...prevented = mission succesful. Omg it was a decoy...deploying uboats to disrupt supplies lines to Normandy coast...and bla, bla. :D

Zedi

06-23-11, 03:54 AM

...

P.S, Zedi, I'd love to see Bismarck in the campaign on that famous run down from the Denmark Straights. The other day, I was playing in Western Approaches on the evening of the 28th May 1941 and suddenly came across a county class heavy cruiser (HMS Dorsetshire??) and a King George V class battleship all alone steaming north from the historical kill site! It must have just been an eerie coincidence but if you could somehow script that sort of thing into the game it would be fantastic. I was amazed they were unescorted though...

Its all there, I dont need to mod anything. Every important events from WW2 is already added in the stock campaign. Weserubung, Torch, Pedestal.. you name it. The Bismarck events is also added and all ships involved in the event are following their historical route.

But.. this is not a movie. And as in real life, you cannot do a thing twice in the exactly same way, there will be always a difference. And thats the beauty of a living and dynamic campaign, once a ship leaves the ports, you will never know what will happen next. The ship can encounter a random patrol taskforce, an air raid, enemy sub etc.. so this way "history will change". But this change is a low priority change and will not affect the major events... with Bismark sailing or not, Germany will still loose the war.

Uboats were not warships and their power was not in attacking strategical military spots and stuff like Haegemon dream on. Germany has a very weak war fleet that was no match for the powerful allied surface fleet. But the real power of the uboats was the ability to disrupt the supply lines to Britain, a country that was depending 100% on these supplies. And they almost succeed, Britain was almost on knee when US steeped in saving Britain and whole Europe from a total disaster. And this was the end of the uboats domination, after 43 the battle of Atlantic was already lost and the begining of the end has started.

In one word, an uboat sim campaign should only about hunting the merchant fleet and nothing else. Of course, if you have the chance to sink a capital ship.. do it. But the main goal is to disrupt the supply line to Britain, is the only order Donitz will keep repeating.