US Libya legislative hypocrisy....

[CaptainHaplo]

Now many here (among other places) know I am right of center, and that I don't like our current president. With that said, a number of legislators (from both sides) are giving the president a hard time over the recent actions we have led in Libya.

Specifically, the use of military force without a declaration of war and without the consent of Congress. Many are saying that his actions without congressional approval are an abuse of authority.

However, lets be real here. The republicans who were yelling at him to get off his arse and DO something are now complaining that he did. The democrats that are upset are mad because without consulting them, they can't take credit for stopping a massacre.

Should Obama have acted earlier? Yes, but thats water under the bridge.

Should Obama make clear how US forces will transition out of an active combat role and into one of pure (and ever decreasing) support? Absolutely. He doesn't really know yet, so he can't.

How is this going to get paid for? Another question he doesn't have an answer for.

What's the real goal? He can't make up his mind....

Yes, he complained that Bush did this very same thing....

All legitimate knocks on the guy.

Yet ultimately he did act. We can disagree over what we are doing, who we are really helping, the cost and all else.... But to complain because he wasn't doing something when he "could" (as some legislative eggheads said he should be doing) and then complain when he does it - is inexcusable.

To yell about impeachment or defunding the operation because you don't get to have the good pr that comes with telling the nation your acting to save lives - is pathetic.

Just a rant about the hypocrisy of some who put politics higher than anything else.

[MaddogK]

Is this really a U.N. operation that we are supplying most of the muscle for, or are we simply using the U.N. as cover to push regime change. This talk of assassination because of our history with daffy will have a high price with our allies in the region.

We need to abide by the limits of the U.N. resolution and pull a Germany- GTFO ASAP !

[Platapus]

The War Powers Act of 1973 gives the President the authority to commit military forces as long as he

1. Informs, in writing, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate within 48 hours

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

[Slyguy3129]

Yea I find it funny that a man that made his political career bashing Bush, has done the same exact thing, but the White House's response to this? Iraq and Afghanistan are wars, this thing in Lybia is not a war...:hmmm:

Atleast Bush had the balls to say that they were wars, justified or not. But I agree about the hypocrisy. I do think Qadaffi needs to go, and its clear he will no do so under his own power. Therefore he needs to be forced to see reason. The White House's response? Sunday it appeared we were there to save lives. Starting a war, to save lives. Must I say that "War.....War never changes." War does nothing but kill people innocent and guilty alike, to make a claim otherwise just isn't so.

Don't even get me started on Congress. Yea we won a victory in November, but without the Senate under our control the Dems can shove the top quarters into their hind quarters just as they have been doing since 2004. The house's hands are effectively tied, and of course you can't expect the President to go along with anything the House brings to the table, even if it does by some miracle pass in the Senate.

[mookiemookie]

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

Let's hope that's as long as this lasts. I have a feeling it won't be.

[Platapus]

Oh I agree, I can't wait for the first "advisers" to be deployed to Libya. :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

I'm entertained by everybody jumping on the bandwagon without noticing which bandwagon they've jumped on. Not one person has addressed what Haplo was actually talking about.

[Tribesman]

It has been funny watching the talking heads spin on the news, they really don't know what to say as they have to condemn that which they justify and justify what they condemn, often in the same sentance.

Unfolding events throughout the middleeast have left them very confused and their black/white view has before their eyes turned a very mushy gray.
Yet they are still attempting a black/white line on it even though their white angle is obviously sortablack and their black is sortawhite.

[Castout]

I'm just glad that many Libyans are saved. My hat off to Obama. Late or otherwise the action saves a lot of people's lives including women and children. Ultimately it saves US standing on the world stage for people like me.
I don't care what else it's saving many many lives. For that I'm grateful.

You see your current president as bad as what his critics and oppositions are saying is actually admittedly first US president who gains a large international popularity on the world stage. True he gains that by being the first African American US president but like it or not he's an international figurehead now. True that every US president might have been an international figures by large but Obama is the first to capture the hearts and mind of the international community. If you don't like the guy we could use him being ours frankly and would be glad to swap ours with yours. But in US ours would probably cause massive riots within 3 months and the dissolution of USA a day after. :nope:

It's a very tough and stressful job being a US president especially in these times and for that alone the guy deserves some slack.

[Slyguy3129]

Oh I get what he is saying, the Republican "warmongers" can't get what they want without a formal declaration, and bleeding heart Democrats can't take credit without it either. It's a clever catch 22 but I doubt the man is intelligent enough to have done it purposely. It just happened so.

I got what he meant, I just chose not to really hear it. He was just blown off steam.

Oddly enough as half hazardly as he has done this little episode, it the first thing the man has done since he stepped foot in the White House that has my full support.

Do I think he will see it through? No it's not in his political genes. What does that mean for us? Only time will tell and hopefully it will be kind and inexpensive.

[Molon Labe]

The War Powers Act of 1973 gives the President the authority to commit military forces as long as he

1. Informs, in writing, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate within 48 hours

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

The War Powers Act isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The powers of the Federal government are delineated in the Constitution; Congress can not legislate more power for itself.

[krashkart]

Well, Mr. Haplo it sounds like business as usual in Washington D.C. You can have your scrambled eggs one of two ways:

this way... *SPLAT*
or that way... *SPLORT*

:)

[mookiemookie]

You see your current president as bad as what his critics and oppositions are saying is actually admittedly first US president who gains a large international popularity on the world stage. True he gains that by being the first African American US president but like it or not he's an international figurehead now. True that every US president might have been an international figures by large but Obama is the first to capture the hearts and mind of the international community. If you don't like the guy we could use him being ours frankly and would be glad to swap ours with yours. But in US ours would probably cause massive riots within 3 months and the dissolution of USA a day after. :nope:

Great. Then the international community can start paying the bill. Where should we send the invoice?

We have overcrowded schools, thousands and thousands of people dying every year for lack of health insurance, children starving and we're off gallivanting on foreign entanglements around the Middle East like we have money to burn. I believe we should get our own house in order before playing world cop.

[Catfish]

We have overcrowded schools, thousands and thousands of people dying every year for lack of health insurance, children starving and we're off gallivanting on foreign entanglements around the Middle East like we have money to burn. I believe we should get our own house in order before playing world cop.

Well, right !

You were not really playing "world cop" before, this was just a mere action to secure resources and enforce hand-tight political goals for the US, by the US, around the world. But now as someone decides to help the population instead of its dictator at the head, you say "we should not play world cop" ? Then you should not have done it before - this is the first time it is done for the people and the rest of the world is aware of it.
But you freely chose to build more flattops, submarines, drones, stealth ships and pay billions for the military development, and the upkeep of what's already there.
Along with illiteracy and whatnot you "wisely refrain" from good education and a public health system for everyone, and if anyone proposes to spend at least a tenth of the military expenses for your own population's good and improvement he is a communist and a traitor, was born in Kenya (imagine THAT, someone born in Kenya ! Outrageous!! Oh he was born in Hawaii !! Where is that ? do you know he's black ? Awwwe) and is the Antichrist.
At the same time you sponsor and pay the bank directors who are responsible for the worst crisis since 60 years in financial circles, while hundred thousands of US citizens are bankrupt because they trusted those very banks.
The US was already bankrupt after the Vietnam war, there was just enough money printed by the federal bank, today money itself IS debt, and inflation is a hidden tax on the public. The last time the US were not in debt was the civil war, using the northern greenbacks - after the federal bank had been closed by Lincoln as violating US constitution (!) there wasn't even a federal bank in the US, until 1913.
I can't hear that BS anymore ! Yes goddam, keep your house clean, and begin with the banks, CIA, and the cold war warriors who still lead this country by the nose.

/rant
only playing devil's advocate here :D;)

[flatsixes]

It's a very tough and stressful job being a US president especially in these times and for that alone the guy deserves some slack.

Slack? Good lord, man. Cut the president some slack?
This isn't a flub at a high school debate team meet. The leader of the most powerful nation on earth has committed the blood and treasure of that nation to an act of war. "Oops! My bad!" isn't an option. Anything less than complete competence is inexcusable. Tough job? Yeah. Now you better damned well succeed at it.

[Tribesman]

Great. Then the international community can start paying the bill. Where should we send the invoice?


The UN, thats where you send the bill for UN work, though I think you may find they might like you to pay what you owe first;)

[MaddogK]

I'm entertained by everybody jumping on the bandwagon without noticing which bandwagon they've jumped on. Not one person has addressed what Haplo was actually talking about.

Actually I believe I have. This isn't our party, we don't need to formally declare war because we're just another participant in this U.N. action, the US couldn't have acted sooner as Libya isn't a serious threat to U.S. interests in the region and the U.N. is the lead on this, and as much as dislike Barry and his politics I think he acted correctly- say as little as possible, let Libya's neighbors dictate our response time, and let them play 'world police'. I don't mind one bit that we supply the muscle for this but I DO have a big problem with this apparent push to remove Ghadafi under the guise of a U.N. no fly zone. We pulled this crap in Iraq and see where that got us ? If we can keep Castro bottled up 90 miles off our shore for 40+ years why can't we do the same with Libya with his enemies help ?

I personally think we should have kept our hands clear of this, but since we're already there we need to make certain that we do ONLY what the U.N. says we can do, and NOTHING more.

[Bilge_Rat]

I dont understand why Americans feel the need to turn every subject into an american issue.

Every one agreed this should be a European led operation with the US playing a secondary role.

We now have a European led operation where European nations will provide the bulk of the forces and funding. The US played a secondary (but vital) role of taking out the Libyan air defences, since they are the ones best equipped for that task.

If American choose to impeach President Obama over this (as some have asked), then you deserve what you get: President Joe Biden. :dead:

[Alex]

Actually I believe I have. This isn't our party, we don't need to formally declare war because we're just another participant in this U.N. action, the US couldn't have acted sooner as Libya isn't a serious threat to U.S. interests in the region and the U.N. is the lead on this, and as much as dislike Barry and his politics I think he acted correctly- say as little as possible, let Libya's neighbors dictate our response time, and let them play 'world police'. I don't mind one bit that we supply the muscle for this but I DO have a big problem with this apparent push to remove Ghadafi under the guise of a U.N. no fly zone. We pulled this crap in Iraq and see where that got us ? If we can keep Castro bottled up 90 miles off our shore for 40+ years why can't we do the same with Libya with his enemies help ?

I personally think we should have kept our hands clear of this, but since we're already there we need to make certain that we do ONLY what the U.N. says we can do, and NOTHING more.
+1!
So finally, I stand corrected : there's not only brainless cowboys in the united states of America.

[Catfish]

+1 indeed !

[Slyguy3129]

Watch it Alex.

The UN? Oh you mean the League of Nations baby brother.

The UN is crap, and it's worse than DC. The fact of the matter is the guy needs to go and the time is now. I'm tired of the same nonsense coming from the these radicals, and the same nonsense from the rest of the world.

If we let the world dictate what we need the world would be in sorry shape.

[krashkart]

Cry "Lockerbie!" and let slip the... no, that isn't how that goes. :hmmm:

Cry "Vengeance!" and let sli... :-?:damn:

Cry "Screw you, world!" and bomb the crap out of a weaker... :huh: No, much too close to the truth. :shifty:



Why don't we just admit that we feel inadequate as a nation because we have to wear a dorky hat? :D

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=1878


No offense to Canada, and especially not the moose or bears of Canada. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=2388

[Sailor Steve]

half hazardly
Is there any reason why anyone should take you seriously?

[Slyguy3129]

I suppose yet again you take issue with something I've said? Try as I might you and I just don't get along do we?

Tell me, why should I take your seriously?

On another note that drawing is hilarious what is that from?

[krashkart]

On another note that drawing is hilarious what is that from?


Scandanavia and the World. :) Here's the comic that I got that from:

http://satwcomic.com/merry-christmas

[Slyguy3129]

:) that's pretty good I'll have to read more of those!

[Bilge_Rat]

:) that's pretty good I'll have to read more of those!

I like this one, even though its not PC:

http://satwcomic.com/not-a-yahtzee

:D

[Penguin]

I like this one, even though its not PC:

http://satwcomic.com/not-a-yahtzee

:D

That's a good one - and the reason why we call the game "Kniffel" here...:O:

[Ducimus]

there's not only brainless cowboys in the united states of America.


I see what you really said there.
One good shot deserves another Frenchy:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zp0h1YAc0Co/RruspP2juuI/AAAAAAAABOo/32FoN0OAyjo/s1600/french_frog.jpg

[tater]

It is of course funny that both the President and VP were both against any "unilateral" action on the part of the Executive branch (and unilateral in the clear terms of the question and answer back then meant Congress vs Executive, it had nothing at all to do with other nations).

I'm willing to cut them some slack on their weak action (clearly the time to "act!" was earlier rather than later), but they should explicitly apologize to the Bush Administration for their smack-talk.

Can be low-key, they can say at a press conf, "Ya know, back in 200X (whatever year it was), I talked some smack from the cheap seats about the President acting without the permission of congress. Now that I really understand what executive decision making is about, it turns out me earlier statements were rash."

I think that the power of Congress to declare war, is a very specific wording and separate from allowing military action. OTOH, back in the day, there was no standing army, so to do military action, the President needed to first raise an army. Even the early USN ships were not ready to sail at all times to save money—though some were usually ready with masts stepped, yards crossed, etc.

Giving the current president exactly what he gave the previous one is sorta funny. You know the dems would do it were the tables turned (since we have the Biden and Obama quotes to prove it). Calling him to the carpet for HIS hypocrisy is totally legit, though I think it's a Commander in Chief decision to make and won't attack him on having the power to make it.

[Sailor Steve]

I suppose yet again you take issue with something I've said? Try as I might you and I just don't get along do we?
My point is that like many others here, you make pronouncements concerning what is wrong with our country, yet you can't even use your own language properly. It's not what you said, it's how you failed to say it.




My other point is that Haplo, who if I remember correctly is an acknowledged Conservative, took his own side to task for wanting it both ways and being more concerned with being right than with doing anything worthwhile, is answered with a string of posts that had nothing to do with what he said. It's not often that the OT starts with post #2, and not one person addresses the OP.

I'm not being cranky, believe it or not. I just found it funny.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have had a chance to look into this a bit more and I really dont see the issue or any contradiction with President Obama's previous position:

1. the issue in 2003 was the fact that President Bush was committing the USA to unilateral action without UN authority:

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

In 2011, you have a specific UN resolution and a broad international coalition;



2. President Obama has fulfilled all of the requirements under the War Powers Act of 1973:

http://www.thecre.com/fedlaw/legal22/warpow.htm

sec. 5 (a) only requires the President to report to the speaker (Bohner), which was done last friday, and the president of the Senate (Biden).

sec. 5 (b) then provides that he has 60 days to either cease military action or obtain authorization from Congress.



You really have to look at this from a skewed partisan viewpoint to see a problem..:hmmm:

[MaddogK]

What a hash up. What a confused and disingenuous stew of hypocrisy and stupidity.

Apparently we are now functioning as close air support for Libyan Rebels comprised of elements of the Muslim Brotherhood and quite possibly Al Qaeda. US Planes flying in support of one of the major contributors to the foreign fighters in Iraq.

Way to go Man Child.

WASHINGTON -- The United States welcomed a partial handover for the Libyan air campaign to NATO, but the allies apparently balked at assuming full control and the U.S. military was left in charge of the brunt of combat.

NATO agreed on Thursday to take over command of the newly established no-fly zone over Libya, protective flights meant to deter Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi from putting warplanes in the air. That leaves the U.S. with responsibility for attacks on Gadhafi's ground forces and other targets, which are the toughest and most controversial portion of the operation.

The U.S had hoped the alliance would reach a consensus Thursday for NATO to take full control of the military operation authorized by the United Nations, including the protection of Libyan civilians and supporting humanitarian aid efforts on the ground. It was not immediately clear when the allies could reach agreement on the matter.

"We are taking the next step: We have agreed along with our NATO allies to transition command and control for the no-fly zone over Libya to NATO," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said.

"All 28 allies have also now authorized military authorities to develop an operations plan for NATO to take on the broader civilian protection mission," Clinton said.

Lines of authority were unclear Thursday night, but it appeared the NATO decision sets up dual command centers and opens the door to confusion and finger-pointing. U.S. commanders would presumably be chiefly responsible for ensuring that the NATO protective flights do not conflict with planned combat operations under U.S. command.

The Pentagon indicated U.S. warplanes will keep flying strike missions over Libya.

In The Meantime China and Russia Warn Of All Out War (Over US Involvement in Libya) FROM EU Times ((WITH VIDEO OF CHINESE WARSHIPS OFF THE COAST OF LIBYA)
http://www.eutimes.net/2011/03/china-moves-to-save-libyan-leader-as-russia-warns-of-all-out-war/comment-page-1/

Is it time to run yet ?

[krashkart]

In The Meantime China and Russia Warn Of All Out War (Over US Involvement in Libya) FROM EU Times ((WITH VIDEO OF CHINESE WARSHIPS OFF THE COAST OF LIBYA)
http://www.eutimes.net/2011/03/china-moves-to-save-libyan-leader-as-russia-warns-of-all-out-war/comment-page-1/

Is it time to run yet ?


Hooray for mankind! :roll:
:damn::damn::damn:

[Slyguy3129]

My point is that like many others here, you make pronouncements concerning what is wrong with our country, yet you can't even use your own language properly. It's not what you said, it's how you failed to say it.




My other point is that Haplo, who if I remember correctly is an acknowledged Conservative, took his own side to task for wanting it both ways and being more concerned with being right than with doing anything worthwhile, is answered with a string of posts that had nothing to do with what he said. It's not often that the OT starts with post #2, and not one person addresses the OP.

I'm not being cranky, believe it or not. I just found it funny.

90% of my post on a given day are from my iphone when I'm one break and having a cig. Which means they are hurried and my iphone tends to out think itself and correct what I have said, and most of the time I'm in to much of a hurry to catch or correct it.

Heck I texted a friend the other day who told me he got the rent house he had bid for. I texted him, "That's Awesome!", what did my iphone autocorrect and send instead, "That's Caesar". Perhaps my "smart"phone has grown a sense of humor for itself, while annoying that had both of us in stitches for the better part of the work day, its also now an inside joke within our group. If something is cool or "awesome" we say that's Caesar. Mark my words that will be the new fad!

Back on topic though. Perhaps this thing in Libya is the spark that is going to ignite WW3? The assassination of the Austrian Duke, The Invasion of Poland, The Intervention in Libya?

[Sailor Steve]

90% of my post on a given day are from my iphone when I'm one break and having a cig.
Okay, you win! :rotfl2:

I've heard of that disease, and it really does trump all.

Back on topic though. Perhaps this thing in Libya is the spark that is going to ignite WW3? The assassination of the Austrian Duke, The Invasion of Poland, The Intervention in Libya?
Okay, now you're scaring me... :DL

[Slyguy3129]

You and me both brother, cause if there is a WW3 then that means we are going to have to draft. I've got prior and I'm still young.

But as have happened other times in the last 100 years, hope against hope that cooler heads will prevail.

[gimpy117]

well, at least this time is a UN operation, and no some crazy "were gonna go on a lone rampage in the middle east" like last time. UN calls for a no fly zone, We are a large part of the UN, Obvious that we lend a hand.

[Slyguy3129]

Ah how fondly I remember the "rampage through the middle east" I took, and how happy alot of people were when I was there, in the fact that we were there.

Gee funny how perspectives can change.

[CaptainHaplo]

OK I may make a thread do discuss the legality of the libya action.

TY to Sailor Steve who recognized what I was saying:

Politicians are still playing politics in Washington, good - bad or ugly - when we have things they should be doing.

Disagree with what we are doing in libya, congress? Defund it.

Agree with it? Then shut up with all the whining.

Have a problem with how it was done, raise the true legal issue that exists.

Don't just castigate a guy for "not doing the job" and then yell that he did it wrong when he did what you wanted him to.

Yes, Obama is being hypocritical since he slammed his predecessor for the same thing. However, he is now sitting at the big boy table and has a clearer understanding than he did from his 1 seat out of a hundred in the senate.

But the left and the right both - on the legislative side - are continuing to do the same thing - wasting time with self serving whining instead of focusing on the issues at hand.

Goes to show why we should R.E.N.O (Re-Elect No One).

[Platapus]

Goes to show why we should R.E.N.O (Re-Elect No One).


When in doubt
Vote em out!