Libyan No-Fly Zone res. passed by UN

[heartc]

Just now on CNN Int.

10 for, 0 against, 5 abstentions.

Edit: I meant to say "Libyan". Sorry for this, I always get that wrong... Maybe a mod wants to correct it, I don't know if I can / how to edit that line.

[Blood_splat]

Too late?

[heartc]

That could very well be the case. Let's hope it's not.

[heartc]

Now it's on their website:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/17/u-n-imposes-no-fly-zone-over-libya/

[Bilge_Rat]

The resolution is wider than just a no-fly zone. I understand that the US is toying with the idea of "surgical" strikes against Gaddafi's armour force, but wants arab states in the region to commit their military also.




ps - I often spell it "Lybia" as well since in french it is "Lybie".

[Molon Labe]

Considering the context of the Libyan revolt and the Arab Spring in general, I really hope that countries like the US, France, and the UK (or anyone else that had a hand in setting up and maintaining the rather autocratic governments that are on the way out) do NOT end up taking the military lead on this. The trust just isn't there. But I haven't heard anything in the news to suggest that regional powers like Egypt or Turkey are going to step up to the plate here. FNC suggesting Europe is going to take the early lead.

I also wish that if "we" were going to go this route, we would have done it weeks ago.

[bookworm_020]

That could very well be the case. Let's hope it's not.

I hope so too. May it give the rebels a chance to win.

[joegrundman]

the cynical side of me says this is all a show - i mean it's for real, but it came after giving the libyan government forces the time to gain enough superiority to be able to finish on the ground, and that this was intentional, but now we have to demonstrate our moral superiority so we have to do something "serious"

and the reason is,firstly, our good allies, the saudis are in bahrain, right now, helping the bahrainians (or whatever you call them) put down their rebels the hard way. And we also intend to let the saudis put down any rebellion in their own land, should it arise.

secondly, we have doubts as to what it would mean if the rebels succeed. in egypt it's ok, because the rebellion didn't really do anything, the army is still in control. tunisia doesn't matter anyway. But Libya? who knows? gadafi is weird, sure, but he wants to do business and hasn't done anything we find objectionable for 20 years or more.

my guess is then, that this is a negotiation, and if gadaffi grounds his planes now, and continues to squash the rebellion on foot - we'll let him.

but the truth will out

[August]

the cynical side of me says this is all a show - i mean it's for real, but it came after giving the libyan government forces the time to gain enough superiority to be able to finish on the ground, and that this was intentional, but now we have to demonstrate our moral superiority so we have to do something "serious"

and the reason is,firstly, our good allies, the saudis are in bahrain, right now, helping the bahrainians (or whatever you call them) put down their rebels the hard way. And we also intend to let the saudis put down any rebellion in their own land, should it arise.

secondly, we have doubts as to what it would mean if the rebels succeed. in egypt it's ok, because the rebellion didn't really do anything, the army is still in control. tunisia doesn't matter anyway. But Libya? who knows? gadafi is weird, sure, but he wants to do business and hasn't done anything we find objectionable for 20 years or more.

my guess is then, that this is a negotiation, and if gadaffi grounds his planes now, and continues to squash the rebellion on foot - we'll let him.

but the truth will out

I think you're right on the mark Joe.

[Skybird]

We are three there, Joe, August.

Divide et impera. Let both sides bleed, seems to be the motto.

But I think some Western politicians may have made the bill without Gadaffi. He already has spit out some threats against the French, against Mediterranean naval traffic, and that he will take revenge by conspirating with Al Quaeda.

[Molon Labe]

I am told the first strikes will be unilateral ones by British and French aircraft. They could be in the air within hours. It is likely five Arab air forces will take part. Hillary Clinton has said (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51496.html) it will mean bombing Libyan air defences. Nato will step up if asked but could take a while.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/airstrikes_on_libya_could_comm.html

Hopefully those 5 Arab air forces will make their presence known early. I'd imagine US forces will be picking off air defense sites with TLAMs to clear the path for the Brits and French.

[TLAM Strike]

Well there was already a sea blockade in effect yesterday, but a ship apparently got though and delivered armor to Tripoli.

But I think this maybe too little too late. Unless we really bomb Qaddafi's forces, I don't mean surgical strikes I mean take out anything military moving east the rebels don't have much hope. I saw a Libyan Loyalist commander saying they were going to bypass Benghazi and go for Tobruk to encircle the rebels.

[Freiwillige]

It's a civil war within it's own sovereign borders. Why in the heck are we getting involved yet again in others business? It has nothing, zero, zilch to do with the United States of America or any other European nation for that matter.

Just my thoughts let the war drums beat yet again.:nope:

[nikimcbee]

So who's enforcing this no-flyzone? It's march maddness here, so count the US out. No executive desicions will be made until after April 4th.

[nikimcbee]

Tripoli is here, right?
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/motion/2009/0318/dm_090318_ncb_obama_bracket_long.jpg

[Molon Labe]

You know what this means now, right? This is now an Obama thread, and as such is topic spam. This thread must now be merged with the master Obama thread.

Trololol. :arrgh!:

[Platapus]

Can't the United States just stay out of this. If the UN wants to go in, let some other member states (Arab) go in, then it won't be a "crusade" of evil West against Islam.

Just because there is some shootin to do, does not mean that the US has to be involved. :yep:

[STEED]

This leaves the door open...

Grab the oil.


Its not our problem so stay out.

BTW: Mr Cameron my PM what the hell do you think your doing?

[TLAM Strike]

So who's enforcing this no-flyzone? It's march maddness here, so count the US out. No executive desicions will be made until after April 4th.
I hate basketball so give me a F-22 and I'll do it... :03:

[nikimcbee]

Can't the United States just stay out of this. If the UN wants to go in, let some other member states (Arab) go in, then it won't be a "crusade" of evil West against Islam.

Just because there is some shootin to do, does not mean that the US has to be involved. :yep:

Yeah, where are the other Arab States? What would happen if a Persian state intervenes (sp)?:06:

[Molon Labe]

Yeah, where are the other Arab States? What would happen if a Persian state intervenes (sp)?:06:

They'll have to talk to TLAM strike and his F-22.

[Penguin]

Can't the United States just stay out of this. If the UN wants to go in, let some other member states (Arab) go in, then it won't be a "crusade" of evil West against Islam.

Just because there is some shootin to do, does not mean that the US has to be involved. :yep:

If you substitute United States with western states, these are exactly my thoughts. There is a reason that the Arab League demands that the West should intervene. If something goes wrong - and something always goes wrong, we know that there is not something like warfare without civilian casualties - then the infidels take the blame for bombing civs.
The Arab states have the military resources to do this on their own. Supporting them with logistic/financial aid: fine - landing western troops/using western air forces to strike: deeply dangerous.

[nikimcbee]

They'll have to talk to TLAM strike and his F-22.


What's wrong with their MiGs? They're a lot cheaper.

[TLAM Strike]

What would happen if a Persian state intervenes (sp)?:06:

They'll have to talk to TLAM strike and his F-22.

...Cuz I'm the mother F-er who started World War Three... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlNv8l9Ro4M)

[krashkart]

They'll have to talk to TLAM strike and his F-22.


That and they will not get any pizza that hasn't been smothered in anchovy paste and left under the heating coils for five hours. :D

[nikimcbee]

How about the IAF? They could clean the mess up in 10 minutes.

[TLAM Strike]

What's wrong with their MiGs? They're a lot cheaper.
I'm too lazy to learn to read Russian. Plus I hate Soviet style RWR displays. :O:

[TLAM Strike]

How about the IAF? They could clean the mess up in 10 minutes. Qaddafi would love that. See Scud Attacks in 1991. ;)

[Molon Labe]

...Cuz I'm the mother F-er who started World War Three... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlNv8l9Ro4M)

Unfortunately, they say "Arabs" instead of "Persians." When I sing along to that in my car, I make the correction.

[TLAM Strike]

Unfortunately, they say "Arabs" instead of "Persians." When I sing along to that in my car, I make the correction.

Meh, they look much the same though an AAQ-14... :03:

[Penguin]

...Cuz I'm the mother F-er who started World War Three... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlNv8l9Ro4M)

lmao :har: great song; gonna send that to a WSO acquaintance of mine

[Madox58]

As the French did not allow the U.S. to fly over way back when?
Let them handle this now.
Or maybe just pay the U.S. what they owe?

We don't need to send Fighters, just send in the Drones!
Best way to insure a no fly zone is to take out the planes on the ground.

[Bakkels]

It's a civil war within it's own sovereign borders. Why in the heck are we getting involved yet again in others business? It has nothing, zero, zilch to do with the United States of America or any other European nation for that matter.

Just my thoughts let the war drums beat yet again.:nope:


:sign_yeah: Nothing to add to that.

[Oberon]

I'm with Joe, August and Skybird on this one. If this decision was going to be made it should have been made last month. It's obvious that the western viewpoint is now anti-revolution rather than pro because we're fine with the Saudis smacking down the Bahrainian (is that the plural?) revolution and the Saudis are the wests BFF (or so they like us to think).

Still, it'll be pretty AAA fireworks over Tripoli again as filmed through grainy green nightvision cameras (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ0BIVbFGc4&feature=related).

[Torplexed]

This can only end in tears.

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/marvin2.jpg

[Castout]

I'd guess it would not take long before Gaddafi is ousted. Not long. I hope as many lives could be saved. I can't imagine what happened to captured rebels and their families and the families in the once rebel held towns. :-?

[haegemon]

The fight if there's any at all will be short. The tedious part will be patrolling the skys. At the moment what is confirmed is the next:

US = IN - Carrier fleet
UK = IN - planes, ¿fleet?
France = IN - planes
Canada = IN - planes
Italy = IN - airbases, ¿planes?
United Arab Emirates = IN - planes
Qtar = IN - planes

Germany = OUT
Egypt = OUT (instead is shipping weapons to the rebel army)


It's a civil war within it's own sovereign borders. Why in the heck are we getting involved yet again in others business? It has nothing, zero, zilch to do with the United States of America or any other European nation for that matter.

Just my thoughts let the war drums beat yet again.:nope:
The Spanish civil war also was inside sovereign borders however there were on the battlefield: with the fascist side german troops, german and italian fighters and bombers, and with the other side russian planes and operatives, and what was called international brigades (US, UK, French...volunteers).

So...nope, sovereignity is relative as always has been.

[Feuer Frei!]

Bombs away!

THE UN Security Council has authorised air strikes to halt Muammar Gaddafi's offensive against embattled rebel forces in Libya, with the first bombing raids possible within hours. The Council today voted to permit "all necessary measures" to impose a no-fly zone, protect civilian areas and impose a ceasefire on Gaddafi's military. Enforcement will rely on air power as the resolution rules out sending ground troops.
After the vote, US President Barack Obama today discussed the resolution with UK Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
"The leaders agreed that Libya must immediately comply with all terms of the resolution and that violence against the civilian population of Libya must cease," the White House said in a statement.
The leaders agreed to coordinate closely on next steps, and to continue working with Arab and other international partners to ensure the enforcement of UN Security Council resolutions on Libya.
The European Union also welcomed the resolution and said it was "ready to implement" it..

Rest of article HERE (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/bomb-raids-on-libya-expected-soon/story-e6frfku0-1226023991461)

[krashkart]

Enforcement will rely on air power as the resolution rules out sending conventional ground troops.

Fixed. There will always be a handful of cuffed deuces on the ground in these places. :)

[papa_smurf]

Time to send out Ark Roy.....oh wait shes been decommissioned:damn:

[TarJak]

Too little too late me thinks. I'm with Joe, August and Skybird. Never been a conspiracy theorist, bu the hand wringing up till today when Benghazi is surrounded, makes me think something is rotten in the state of Libya.

[Tarrasque]

Time to send out Ark Roy.....oh wait shes been decommissioned:damn:

Nah, it's OK, our Harriers can fly off.....oh yeah.

Not sure what the hell our government is doing. They've pretty much crippled our armed forces, both with regards to equipment and also morale. They've also crippled our economy. But it's OK to get involved in yet another attempted regime change. This is despite them being violently against the last one in Iraq.

Hypocritical slimy lying pieces of ****

[the_tyrant]

We don't need to send Fighters, just send in the Drones!
Best way to insure a no fly zone is to take out the planes on the ground.

Would Gaddafi claim to be
"protecting Libya from robot invaders?":haha:

[Skybird]

German media report that British Typhoons and Tornadoes are currently inflight to relocate to the theatre, probably Sicily I think. The French are said to prepare strikes with Mirages, from Southen France they could reach Lybia with maybe 2 or 3 inflight-refuelings. The Americans sooner or later probably send in a carrier. Italy donours airport facilities. UAE sends fighter planes.

And Germany sends cosy words of self-justification, and a late permission to use more German AWACS personell to Afghanistan. :dead:

Yeah, us Germans. :cry: Instead of "Never again war!" we should have subscribed to a different slogan: "Next time in defence of liberty instead of tyranny!" I hate my nation's basic attitude of always ashes on our heads. It so pitiful, and weak.

British Typhoons. Will this become the first real test for the European fighter to claim prey in a shooting war?

We should have done this earlier. When the rebels said they would welcome Wetsern air support, we should have send that in, but no ground troops. Just neutralising Gaddafi's airforce and heavy artillery and tanks. And kill the Gaddafi clan, if the opportunity arises. The rest, on the ground, the Lybians should have settled amongst themselves.

[Oberon]

Yes, looks that way, I thought we'd sent them out to Afghanistan but it seems we didn't. Will be interesting to see how they handle against the Libyan Air Force...not that the Libyan Air Force is exactly that high tech, still, it'll give our boys some much needed air to air practice if it does go hot.

Personally I think Daffy will just ground his airforce and hide them like Saddam did.

[Skybird]

Yes, looks that way, I thought we'd sent them out to Afghanistan but it seems we didn't. Will be interesting to see how they handle against the Libyan Air Force...not that the Libyan Air Force is exactly that high tech, still, it'll give our boys some much needed air to air practice if it does go hot.

Personally I think Daffy will just ground his airforce and hide them like Saddam did.

If he is clever, he will. Which means they can be caught on the ground, yum-yum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Air_Force#Current_air_force_equipment

I'm not impressed. Some air transportation and gunship capacity, but air superiority fighters? None.

Question remains about Lybian SAM capacities.

[Oberon]

In 2009 the IISS estimated that Libya had Crotale, SA-7 Grail, SA-9/SA-13 surface to air missiles, and AA guns in Army service. A separate Air Defence Command has SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 Gammon, and SA-8b Gecko, plus guns.
Reported anti aircraft artillery includes Soviet 57 mm S-60, 23 mm self-propelled ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2, Czech M53/59 Praga, and Swedish Bofors 40mm guns.


How many of them actually work is another thing...

[TLAM Strike]

Info on the Libyan SAM network (http://geimint.blogspot.com/2010/05/libyan-sam-network.html)

[Skybird]

How many of them actually work is another thing...


If that is it, then it does not look like an air defence that cannot be dealt with. Higher altitude already would render most of these system useless. Those that can reach to higher altitudes, are old designs. No really modern threats there.

Which should not be an excuse to take it easy.

[Jimbuna]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...dy-for-war.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390263/Libya-British-fighter-jets-get-ready-for-war.html)

Who is going to pay for this?

I thought we were broke :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Info on the Libyan SAM network (http://geimint.blogspot.com/2010/05/libyan-sam-network.html)

Again, I'm not impressed.


CONCLUSION

At the end of the day, the Libyan strategic SAM network requires a massive infusion of new technology to remain viable in the twenty first century. It was not capable of repelling an attack over twenty years ago, and there is no reason to suspect that it will be capable of such action today. Libya is reportedly negotiating for the purchase of advanced S-300PMU-2 (SA-20B GARGOYLE) SAM systems from Russia, which would go a long way towards modernizing the network and restoring its effectiveness.

^this.

[Skybird]

Gaddafi has just declared a one-sided cease-fire.

Who says force never works? In this case just a robust threat of imminent use of force already has caused a reaction - where all the clever diplomatic babbling about sanctions and lip-confessions have failed for two weeks.

The German government should blush in shame.

[Oberon]

Gaddafi has just declared a one-sided cease-fire.

Who says force never works? In this case just a robust threat of imminent use of force already has caused a reaction - where all the clever diplomatic babbling about sanctions and lip-confessions have failed for two weeks.

:doh: Well bugger me...it actually worked. :doh:

[Skybird]

Next topic: the Saudis intervening in Bahreini uprise.

:06:

[joegrundman]

you are too pleased with yourselves!

the rebels are already reduced to the point they can be handled with police tactics, and perhaps a negotiated solution

[joegrundman]

Next topic: the Saudis intervening in Bahreini uprise.

:06:
and yemen

we will not be siding with the protesters against the House of Saud, not for a long time. even if the protesters are currently in bahrain

The US-SA alliance is possibly the backbone of the modern world structure

[Jimbuna]

A clever move by Gaddafi me thinks.

[Hawk66]

Gaddafi has just declared a one-sided cease-fire.


The German government should blush in shame.
+1

'Our' secretary of state is really the worst one since WWII in Germany. I've heard him yesterday in an interview in 'Deutschlandfunk'. He talks nonsense, he has no vision...his only intention is to survive the next two big regional elections in Germany.

What a shame!

[Oberon]

A clever move by Gaddafi me thinks.

Or someone who has Daffys ear. I don't see Daffy being that easily cowed by the UN, either that or he's not as senile as he looks and sounds.

Joe is right though, it's too late.

[Herr-Berbunch]

5th Fleet anyone?

[Skybird]

and yemen

we will not be siding with the protesters against the House of Saud, not for a long time. even if the protesters are currently in bahrain

The US-SA alliance is possibly the backbone of the modern world structure
Me thinks of bonecancer.

[Jimbuna]

Or someone who has Daffys ear. I don't see Daffy being that easily cowed by the UN, either that or he's not as senile as he looks and sounds.

Joe is right though, it's too late.

I think the danger or risk here is....what are his real intentions/next moves.

Love him or hate him he must be an awesome opponent at chess.

[STEED]

Who is going to pay for this?

I thought we were broke :hmmm:

The likes of you and I jim, because we and a few others can see it.

We are bust but this coalition has taken a leaf out of Gordon Brown's book...PRINT IT.

[STEED]

Gaddafi has a odd way saying theres a cease fire and still attacks. :doh:

Are! Maybe he left the date and time out by error. :shifty:

[joegrundman]

Me thinks of bonecancer.:haha:

[joegrundman]

I think the danger or risk here is....what are his real intentions/next moves.

Love him or hate him he must be an awesome opponent at chess.

innit!

[joegrundman]

Are!

Are! what?

[MaddogK]

:har:
The U.N.

By the time they come up with a plan, Ghaddafi's gonna die of old age.

[Jimbuna]

The likes of you and I jim, because we and a few others can see it.

We are bust but this coalition has taken a leaf out of Gordon Brown's book...PRINT IT.

Had to laugh at his speech in Parliament this morning which was aired on the BBC....he had his two puppets/muppets (Hague and Clegg} sitting behind him on either side nodding their heads in agreement at all the right verbal points.

Better than Brown eating a bogey behind Blairs back I suppose :hmmm:

But only just mind :DL

[Bilge_Rat]

Love him or hate him he must be an awesome opponent at chess.

you don't last 42 years in power unless you know what you are doing. A lot of articles show that he has been diversifying his power base very wisely over the past decades, which is why he has been able to survive this crisis.

Its a mistake to think he is just crazy... more likely he is crazy like a fox.

[Jimbuna]

The word 'ceasefire' wasn't meant for our own ears - it was aimed at certain international agendas. The word is a kind of Totem. He can go on opposing the Rebels but if the West intervenes, Ghadaffi will highlight indignantly that he'd called a ceasefire and the untrustworthy Westerners were intent on breaking it. No matter the logic behind it, there will be plenty of ears elsewhere in the world only too happy to hear that version of events. Under the 'ceasefire' he'll also insist that the Rebels disarm and disband.

Classic. Divide and conquer it is.

The above post was written by a contributor to another forum and whilst these are not my words I see little point in changing any of it since I agree with them in their entirity.

[STEED]

Gaddafi knows what the West can do...

Flashback.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya

[haegemon]

Update:

France = IN
Canada = IN - six fighter jets
Denmark = IN
Italy = IN - airbases
Norway = IN
Poland = IN - logistic support
Qtar = IN - planes
Spain = IN - bases, planes, ¿fleet?
United Arab Emirates = IN - planes
UK = IN - Tornado and Typhoon planes, two frigates at the Mediterranean
US = IN - Red sea Carrier fleet

Egypt = OUT (instead is shipping weapons to the rebel army)
Germany = OUT
Malta = OUT (but lets use of its airspace)
Tunisia = OUT



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...dy-for-war.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390263/Libya-British-fighter-jets-get-ready-for-war.html)

Who is going to pay for this?

I thought we were broke :hmmm:


For the armies is like maneuvers, the cost is in fuel and to that Libyans will invite. :salute:

[Oberon]

Jim, whoever wrote that has it spot on. He can play the victim card now, and if his forces are caught still attacking then he'll either blame it on his supporters carrying on the fight ("I cannot control their love for their country.") or claim that the other guys broke the ceasefire first.

I have a feeling that this NFZ will go ahead anyway, ceasefire or not, but it'll make some of the more unsure members of it engage reverse, if not now then soon. I think the German government is getting cold feet already. The French seem to be taking the lead in a lot of it though, I guess Sarkozy needs to flex the old military muscle a bit to distract the French from trouble at home. Do the whole "We are still a respected and critical part of the international community" and all that.

[Penguin]

Germany = OUT


Actually they are thinking about sending AEW&C aircrafts as a support.
The cabinet will talk about it on Wednesday next week, then it will be brought to parliament.
It's actually extremly fast for our government, this is the sad joke at which speed "fast decisions" are made here... :doh:

no more blitzkrieg...

[Jimbuna]

Jim, whoever wrote that has it spot on. He can play the victim card now, and if his forces are caught still attacking then he'll either blame it on his supporters carrying on the fight ("I cannot control their love for their country.") or claim that the other guys broke the ceasefire first.

I have a feeling that this NFZ will go ahead anyway, ceasefire or not, but it'll make some of the more unsure members of it engage reverse, if not now then soon. I think the German government is getting cold feet already. The French seem to be taking the lead in a lot of it though, I guess Sarkozy needs to flex the old military muscle a bit to distract the French from trouble at home. Do the whole "We are still a respected and critical part of the international community" and all that.

I do believe you have interpreted the post well Jamie me old son.

Gaddafi up to now has been a 'survivor' and the only way I can see him being brought to book is if the Arab contingent take a leading role....but will that happen?

That is the $million question.


no more blitzkrieg...

I doubt the leading elements ie. France and the UK will wait whilst those that dither, pontificate and consider.

That was not meant in a disrespectful context to our friend and ally Germany either.

It would appear once the UN have sanctioned action the time for anything other than said action is over.

[Penguin]

I doubt the leading elements ie. France and the UK will wait whilst those that dither, pontificate and consider.

That was not meant in a disrespectful context to our friend and ally Germany either.

It would appear once the UN have sanctioned action the time for anything other than said action is over.

It's fine by me to criticize the hesistant position of Germany. Hell, the UN decision was announced early enough, they could had found a decision earlier for the case of green light.
Especially when the whole opposition forces could be slaughtered within days - ok, old Gadi announced a truce, we should believe him, lol

However I'm still thinking that arab forces should do the work on the ground and the air strikes - of course under UN mandate - while the Nato should provide logistic and other suzpport.

[Catfish]

The first time Germany could do something for the people, instead of supporting dictators and selling them weapons, or pushing industy that also supports dictatorship, and my own governmnet (NOT ME GODDAM) refrains from actively trying to help Libya's people against this ******* Gaddafi just because of investments and upcoming elections :nope:

I am sure the NATO, the arabian nations and the rest of the world will remember this decision, and RIGHTLY so.

I do not want to be set equal with my government or its opinion, i am really ashamed :nope:

[joegrundman]

• All attacks against civilians must stop.

• Gaddafi must stop his troops from advancing on the rebel stronghold Benghazi, and pull them back from Ajdabiya, Misrata and Zawiya.

• Gaddafi must establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas.

• Humanitarian assistance must be allowed to reach the people of Libya.

OK, hands up who's from a country that has never forcefully suppressed a rebellion?

anyway i was wrong - this is an ultimatum, and gaddafi is going to die, or at least be arrested. Since this ultimatum, if gaddafi is to keep his head, means the permanent independence, and thus a new micro-state, of the rebel cities (benghazi plus..?)

Unless he delivers a fait accomplis over night, there will be two libyas, or there is war.

Obama has to prove his cojones to the conservatives, and man-boy Cameron has to show he's "stern" and "purposeful" and "decisive" and all the other focus-group derived adjectives that are desirable in a modern british leader

It was interesting for a moment when i thought the US might not contribute, but now the us is in...

this is a mistake, i'm afraid, but hey, what's the middle east for?

[Madox58]

In 1981, threats were made toward Egypt because of U.S. Troops doing Bright Star there.
This Nut Cake Massed Troops on the border and threatened invasion.
They got thier arses handed to them in Covert Actions/Engagements
that left massive amounts of equipment burning along with a high number of newly departed Souls.

Those Troops (What was left of them) ran like rabbits!
Very few returned fire and what was returned was no where near the engageing forces.

Later the U.S. decided to bomb that Nut Cake.
Some Countries decided We could not Fly over thier Air Space to do this.
(I'd have flown over them anyway and shot down anyone that screwed with me!)
So the flights went around thier sorry arse!

We managed to scare that Nut Cake so bad that he ducked and covered for years.

Now is the time for the 'Don't fly over me' Arses to do the job!
We probably would have got the Nut Cake back then if not for those limp wristed Arses!

[Tribesman]

We managed to scare that Nut Cake so bad that he ducked and covered for years.


That explains why the terrorist attacks and funding continued :doh:
In case you missed it he was still at it years after you had scared him so much he stopped.

Some Countries decided We could not Fly over thier Air Space to do this.
(I'd have flown over them anyway and shot down anyone that screwed with me!)

:har::har::har::har::har:
Those foolish countries which ridiculously believe they are nations eh

[Bakkels]

this is a mistake, i'm afraid, but hey, what's the middle east for?

The middle east? sigh.... :nope:

[heartc]

With regards to Catfish's post -

The thing is this: The decision of Germany to abstain was much more motivated on domestic political grounds than on anything else. You see, many Germans domesticly even have a problem with our effort in Afghanistan. They simply drew the wrong lecture from WWI and WWII. That is, that there should be "No more wars". Ever, anywhere. That sounds good, but it is simplistic, ignorant and unreal. The real lesson should have been that there ought to be FREEDOM, that there ought to be no dictatorship, that there ought to be free elections, that there ought to be human rights, that there ought to be CITIZENS, not SERVANTS.

On the other hand, even the Germans who believe in these positive viewpoints I described above, most of them are still very much interested in STABILITY, more than anything else. This might be directly related to our recent past, in which we were on the frontline of the Cold War, i.e. on the frontline of a possible World War III. Most people here think that it was stability and the balance of power between East and West which saved us from nuclear armageddon. And indeed, the last time Germans were "adventurous", it brought great devastation to this country, and during the Cold War, it was indeed that stability which saved us. So now that Germany has peace with the world, Germany does not want to lose even a tiny bit of it by engaging in "adventures", but instead values nothing more than that "stability" - even if it's just imagined - in the hope that this will exempt us from sending German soldiers overseas, possibly causing more instability abroad or domesticly. Stability is everything. Now, this believe has already been undercut by the Afghanistan mission. To let it be undercut by another mission would have probably been unacceptable to most of the electorate, especially when it is as aprubt as on the Libyan issue, and without long or even middle term analysis at hand. If the German ambassador to the UN would have voted "Yes" yesterday, the foreign ministry would probably be looking for a new boss today.

So, this was my attempt to explain the German UN vote, if anyone was interested / wondering.

My own opinion is that Catfish is right. To abstain from the vote was a great failure of German foreign politics.

Especially in light of what many people and pundits here have been harping on since the Iraq Invasion 2003: How you cannot really introduce democracy and freedom from the outside - even though this assumption is at least occasionally contradicted by historic proof - hint: Berlin...hint...HINT! -, but now that some societies in the Arab world are indeed standing up against their dictatorhips from within, we would now rather sit by idly and watch them and their effort get slaughtered??? Just for the sake of "stability", because we might not know every future implication of it?

Well, I think we know one DEFINITE implication of what is going to happen if we (the "world communtiy") don't act. That is Gaddafi butchering a great many more people who stand up against a decades long brutal suppression, against being taken hostage for all those years. That should be enough to come up with a "Yes" vote, especially when pretty much everybody else, including Arabs, is for it, no??? And I don't think we would be supporting radical Islamists with that effort. Instead, I believe that it is those dictatorhips, which are robbing all hope and freedom from their people and then blame all their own failures that come with this on the West and on Israel, that are the breeding grounds for youngsters to get caught up in idiotic Jihadist suicidal teachings. If those people had a fair chance at it, they wouldn't be contemplating to blow themselves up for the manic teachings of some old delusional sickos. Because contrary to what Skybird would have you believe, this kind of **** is not in the Qur'an, and it is not in the "nature" of the people, either! People DO want to LIVE. THAT is their nature, and it is UNIVERSAL.


So, what about this "Stability"? A graveyard is a very stable place, too. Hell, it is even peaceful. Is that the kind of outlook though we wish unto our fellow humans?

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:12

[Madox58]

That explains why the terrorist attacks and funding continued :doh:
In case you missed it he was still at it years after you had scared him so much he stopped.


:har::har::har::har::har:
Those foolish countries which ridiculously believe they are nations eh

One Country We saved what? 2 Times?
(Maybe they would be better off as a German Territory?)
And they never paid thier War Dues back?
So it's a Nation. Does that excuse them?
You know, I was all ready to join the Foreign Legion after my time in the 82nd.
That no fly crap stopped me.
So I went Mercenary for a few years.
And maybe he did fund stuff a bit since we bombed him.
They all do.
Even our so called Allies in that area are still makeing us talk like Dolphins.

[Skybird]

The first time Germany could do something for the people, instead of supporting dictators and selling them weapons, or pushing industy that also supports dictatorship, and my own governmnet (NOT ME GODDAM) refrains from actively trying to help Libya's people against this ******* Gaddafi just because of investments and upcoming elections :nope:

I am sure the NATO, the arabian nations and the rest of the world will remember this decision, and RIGHTLY so.

I do not want to be set equal with my government or its opinion, i am really ashamed :nope:

You must not, you cannot be ashamed of other people's behavior and choices - just about your own's. Like me, you have said clearly you disagree with the German politicians. That's what separates you/us from them. Their failure is not yours/ours.

As a national actor, Germany deserves to feel negative consequences for this messed up decision, though.

On the other hand, the Frnech and Utalians just short while ago exchnaged handshakes as often as possible, and wanted to sell him ATGMs and nuclear powerplants, or even did. The Scots showed true naivety when believing opportunistic words about the detoriating health of the Lockerby bomber, and releasing him. The brits mentioned that it is time to open a new chapter with the regime in past years. The EU played ball when Gaddafi repeatedly blackmailed them and treated EU members like dogs. The Chinese and Russians negotiate weapons deliveries to Lybia. The US in the past couple of years repeatedly found appreciating words about the regime. So, Germany is not alone in failing over Lybia. It really is in prominent company.

[Bakkels]

Wow Heartc, that's quite a good argument / post you wrote there. I just disagree with one thing; you mentioned Berlin as an example of the theory that you CAN force democracy. But you can't really compare that to the countries in the Middle East and North Africa imo. Berlin and the rest of the DDR were separated from West Germany after the war, but still felt 'connected' (for lack of a better word) with their fellow Germans west of the Wall / Iron Curtain. 45 years of cold war semi-dictatorship doesn't break that bond.
Now I don't mean to pretend to know more about Germany then you of course, since it is your homeland, but what I'm trying to say is that Berlin evolved the last few centuries just like the rest of Europe (going through the Enlightenment, being part of a republic and all that) and were only seperated from the rest of Western Europe for 45 years.
The countries the Western World tries to 'force' democracy on, don't have that experience. Democracy isn't just something you can do, it also has to 'grow on people' (again, for lack of a better word). It is a state of mind and a system that takes practice; of trial and error. It takes decades if not centuries to develop a real democracy.
That being said, I do think we should intervene, help the people in Libia, make sure Khadaffi will stand down but after that get out of there.
Beside that, I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you said there.
Very well spoken:up:

[joegrundman]

The middle east? sigh.... :nope:

north africa/middle east..whatevaaa pedant

[joegrundman]

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?

Apart from being a bit odd, (which Privateer of all people seems to think is a bad thing!), how bad is he? Massacres? Torture (not that that's a bad thing anymore)? Restriction of travel? Forced collectivization? Please tell me!

And a non-democratic leader like a whole bunch of others in the region that we have no intention of forcing the topple of - eg. kuwait, saudi arabia, all the gulf states, syria (ok we'd topple syria), jordan

And how popular was the rebellion - i man this rebellion wasn't a bunch of flower wavers was it? they had weapons, inc. heavy weapons and at least 1 plane. But not the majority of the weapons, so most of the military remained loyal. The rebels also took a few towns, but most towns remained loyal.

Well, I don't care all that much about Libya, but really, the West, and the UN has been meddling too much in the affairs of that region. If you want the region to grow up, you have to let them do it themselves, or else we are continuing in the whole infantilizing-of-the-muslim-world-micro-managing-nation-building that has stood us so well in the last 10 years

But of course it makes no difference. Cameron has to prove he's as tough as Blair. It's domestic politics by other means! I just hope it all goes according to plan and it's over in time for the summer holidays, and Libya turns smoothly into a happy, lawful and democratic country and Cameron gets to enjoy his frisson

[Tribesman]

One Country We saved what? 2 Times?

Is that the country you owe your countries existance to or was it any one of the other countries that did the same?
If you want to rake up the past thats fine, your nation has past debts too so pay up.
So it's a Nation. Does that excuse them?

A nation is a nation, they can do what they like and don't have to bow like a servant at your whim.
You know, I was all ready to join the Foreign Legion after my time in the 82nd.
That no fly crap stopped me.

Really????? :doh:
So I went Mercenary for a few years
Hey Daffy has been hiring , are you after a job ? dictators are always interested in hired guns. what's your price for a killing?
Can you explain in simple terms why hired killers who are in it just for the cash and thrill get such a bad reputation? it really is beyond my ken how anyone could think badly of hired guns.

And maybe he did fund stuff a bit since we bombed him.

Ah the real point. :yeah:.
No maybe about it, he did. That is why your point was untrue in the first place. All that gung ho flag waving nonsense might be OK if it had been based on truth, but it wasn't was it.

Even our so called Allies in that area are still makeing us talk like Dolphins.
I see the problem there.
You want lap-dogs not allies.

[Tribesman]

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?................
That is one fine post, it covers nearly every angle and is firmly fixed in rerality.

[MH]

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?


Qaddafi was Da Man for most Arabs for the foxy atitude toward west.

He is leader of Bedouin tribes and has grown up in one so his rulling style is as such.
He is not much diffrent from many African and ME leaders.
This no fly zone crap to help Lybian peaple is simply populistic bull.
After qaddafi there will be just another Qadaffi.

[TorpX]

Does anybody know what is happening inside Libya? I've heard very little about this lately.

[joegrundman]

but it's not just a no fly zone. I thought at first it was, hence my earlier position that this was a negotiation.

But the resolution also calls for an end to any further advance on rebel positions.

In short the resolution is creating a new micro-state out of those Libyan towns currently held by rebels.

Since this outcome is essentially pointless, and certainly not part of any clear thinking, the conclusion is that it is not intended to be accepted and is a precursor to the removal of gaddaffi in order to restore the libyan state.

if he really is wily, he'll accept the new micro state and enjoy watching the huge amount of treasure being spent by the UN to protect something pointless and think about what to do with his oil concessions

if you remember the oil concessions for Al Megrahi exchange with Britain, Britain has now thrown away it's side of the bargain, while Libya already has Megrahi back. He can now renegotiate the oil business with whoever he wants.

But there is a good chance that the nutty old chess player will make a foolish decision as a result of the external pressure, and get himself killed.

[joegrundman]

Plane been shot down in Benghazi

looks like it was the rebel plane, and may even have been friendly fire that did it

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01852/libyajet_1852415d.jpg

[Skybird]

After the UN resolution calling for a halt, and after the declared cease-fire, Gaddafi-loyal troops advanced further and now have entered Benghazi.

Reaction by the European forces: none.

[Bakkels]

A former minister of foreign affairs here made a comment about that yesterday evening: they are actually waiting until Ghadaffi enters Benghazi, or is at it's doorstep. That way they have a legitimate humanitarian reason to intervene, which makes it harder for anyone to criticize them afterwards. Kinda made sense I thought.

[Rockstar]

Lack of action on the wests part is simply saying yes to Cadaffy in case he wins. At the same time the sabre rattling is simply a show to the anti-Qwadufy forces that we support them too just in case they win.

Nobody gives a rats arse if Gedffiy wins or the anti-Kadwafy forces win. Everyone is scrambling around jockying for a favorable position to whomever the winner may be.

[Skybird]

A former minister of foreign affairs here made a comment about that yesterday evening: they are actually waiting until Ghadaffi enters Benghazi, or is at it's doorstep. That way they have a legitimate humanitarian reason to intervene, which makes it harder for anyone to criticize them afterwards. Kinda made sense I thought.
Make sense?

Attacking enemies inside a city is more difficult, and bears greater risk of collateral damage. Also, house-to-house combt is a nasty affair - hostiles having entered the city could hold out long there, even if their supplies lines outside the city get interrupted by air raids.

To call this a situation that makes sense again means that political reality-distortion is undermining military reason.

[Jimbuna]

Rafales are now flying recon flights over the Gadaffi front line..

[Tchocky]

French Rafales have been overflying Libya for the last few hours, out of St. Dizier near Nancy. long way to go.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971

Edit - Ah jim ;)

Accoridng to Sarko, the jets are there to deter the Libyan MiGs, one of which was shot down earlier in Benghazi by rebels.

[TLAM Strike]

Mirage 2000 jet have been spotted with Recon pods and tanks taking off from France.
Al Jazeera reports that the French goverment has autrized air strikes against Loyalist forces that have entered Benghazi.

RAF Tornadoes with tanks were seen taking off from Scotland.

CNN footage showed a Loyalist troop convoy with 4 SA-8 SAM TELs and a SA-7 truck mount plus MBTs and SPGs south of Benghazi.

[Freiwillige]

Hmmm playing devils advocate here, If I were daffy duck I would switch to a gorilla warfare form. Ditch all military uniforms, Have infiltrators inside the rebellion collecting info sabotaging weapons stocks. And take the fight into the cities where allied flights would have a hard time distinguishing friend from foe.

Every time there is even remote collateral damage make sure photo's and interviews with survivors get out to influence world opinion.

Have secret police round up any sympathizers while giving fat bonus's to loyalists. Build anything remotely positive to steer the will of the people, Park's schools, shopping centers so that Daffy duck can say look what I am doing for Libya!

Pull a Saddam and have all the tanks and artillery safeguarded with civilian shields, Volunteers of course!

Yea that's what I would do If I was Daffy duck.

(Note) I am not at all sympathetic to Daffy's cause just pointing out the he still has the capabilities to create a total SNAFU for the west. If we don't put boots on the ground he can control things easier. If we do put boots on the ground it will be another insult to Muslims who will see it as yet again western intervention and galvanize the forces not to mention irritate the rebels who have clearly stated no western ground forces!

[Skybird]

Comment in German on Germany's failure over the Lybia resolution. Diplomatic Germany will have to pay a price for this mess. The votum gets revleaed as what it is: toughness in words, but meaninglessness in deeds and cowardice in intention.

http://www.welt.de/debatte/article12886871/Westerwelles-Verweigerung-blamiert-unser-Land.html?print=true#reqdrucken

German elections in several states this year and domestic policies may play one role here. But that is no excuse, but only illustrates to what degree poltical parties now are willing to sacrifice all and everything ofr their own desire to claim power - no matter the cost.

Since long I think that political parties are one of the tombstone of parliamentary democracies. Members of parliament should be forbidden to organise in any form of political associations, clubs, parties or the the like. It necessarily and inevitably turns any democracy into a lobby-driven oligarchy and party-dictatorship. Already Aristoteles pointed at that direction. When thinking about Europe's decision-forming mechanisms and powerfactions and slogans today, i just think three letters that are like a deja vu to what we have today: "GDR".

[MH]

Comment in German on Germany's failure over the Lybia resolution. Diplomatic Germany will have to pay a price for this mess. The votum gets revleaed as what it is: toughness in words, but meaninglessness in deeds and cowardice in intention.

http://www.welt.de/debatte/article12886871/Westerwelles-Verweigerung-blamiert-unser-Land.html?print=true#reqdrucken

German elections in several states this year and domestic policies may play one role here. But that is no excuse, but only illustrates to what degree poltical parties now are willing to sacrifice all and everything ofr their own desire to claim power - no matter the cost.

Since long I think that political parties are one of the tombstone of parliamentary democracies. Members of parliament should be forbidden to organise in any form of political associations, clubs, parties or the the like. It necessarily and inevitably turns any democracy into a lobby-driven oligarchy and party-dictatorship. Already Aristoteles pointed at that direction. When thinking about Europe's decision-forming mechanisms and powerfactions and slogans today, i just think three letters that are like a deja vu to what we have today: "GDR".

Can you explain why you have a problem about Germany not joining the show.

[Molon Labe]

5 US EA-18 Growlers deployed alongside the 31st FW @ Aviano.

Recall that with the retirement of the EF-111, USN gets to cover the Air Force EW mission.

[Skybird]

Can you explain why you have a problem about Germany not joining the show.


Has my attitude on this issue not become clear by my past comments? I cannot believe that.

I only have to add to those past comments that once again there is such a discrepancy between what German politicians demand and claim - and what they really do and help to accieve.

What I think should have been done, I already said three weeks ago, on March 1st:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1609473&postcount=221

Me and us and all underestimated Gaddafi'S potential back then, okay. But still I and some other board members were 3 weeks ahead of current events.

Even the Danes, not being known for havcing that huge an airforce, were able and willing to send 6 F-16s.

Beyond that, the article I just linked to imo is absolutely correct. It is a bigotery that the Germans seriously thought all the world would beleive and follow their infantile hoping for the fairy queen if only their words would be tough enough, but when action was needed, they stood up against all their Western allies. Germany has just illustrated why its attempt to get a full seat in the UN-SC's b ig five, is just wishful thinkling, and should not be allowed. Now Merkel and Westerwelle try to get away with that by now sending AWACS personell to Afghanistan - what until just two days ago also was a big no-no for the German government. What has all of a sudden changed the former reasons for the German refusal to send more AWACS to Afghanistan...?! :06: ;)

The essay I linked, correctly said that this oppsiton of Ger,many over Lybia, does not compare to the oppsoition back in 2003, over Iraq, becasue then all the Wetsd and Eurpope weas divided and deeply split. But now, the Western states are united, or so it seems, and the action is in support of what Germany has been one of the loudest to demand.

But when it came to deeds to full those words with meaning and seriousness, Germany faltered. Instead, we are now being mentioned in one breath with China, Russia, Brasil and India, all of which support(ed) Gaddafi over pure economic interests. Great company we have chosen over this matter.

[CCIP]

BBC has just reported that a French plane had "opened fire on a military vehicle".

So whatever that means, I guess it has started.

[Oberon]

It does look that way. Dassault is going to get a work-out.

The Charles De Gaulle CV is heading further into the Med. Looks like the French are taking the lead in this, which I imagine the US will be only too happy to let them, given the stigma both the US and UK have over Iraq and Afghanistan.

[joegrundman]

5.02pm: US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, has said that while the US will not deploy ground troops in Libya "there should be no mistaking our commitment to this effort".

She told a press conference after the Paris summit that the US would help its European and Canadian allies and Arab partners stop Gaddafi from attacking the Libyan people.

Colonel Gaddafi continues to defy the world and his attacks on civilians go on... As President Obama has said, we have every reason to fear that left unchecked, Gaddafi will commit unspeakable atrocities. We all recognise that further delay will only put more civilians at risk.

Let me be clear about the position of the US. We will support an international coalition as it takes all necessary measures to enforce the terms of Resolution 1973. French planes were in the air as we were meeting and there will be other actions to follow. There is no doubt that we will begin to enforce the resolution.

well, the only thing that could make this even remotely entertaining is if the USA stays out of it. It would be worth it to see what France and Britain alone can do. There was a time each nation could simultaneously fight 3 Libyas in different continents.

But that's unlikely to be the case. No one wants to miss out on a chance for some righteous bomb throwing

Hillary Clinton says we "should not doubt our commitment" to form a huge high tech alliance that can smash up another third world s--theap.

I like her official use of *things we fear gaddafi might do* as justification. It is the world of August!

[Jimbuna]

BBC has just reported that a French plane had "opened fire on a military vehicle".

So whatever that means, I guess it has started.

A French plane has fired the first shots in Libya as enforcement of the UN-mandated no-fly zone begins. The target was a military vehicle, the French defence ministry said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971)

[CCIP]

BBC:
1748: French aircraft have destroyed four Libyan tanks in air strikes to the south-west of Benghazi, Al-Jazeera television has reported

I'm guessing they're plinking these with LGBs from high altitude?

[TLAM Strike]

From BBC news photos: USN EA-18G Growlers have been forward deployed to Italy for SEAD missions.

Also the Rebel MiG-23 that was shot down, looks like the pilot bailed out but its unclear if he survived.

[CCIP]

Also the Rebel MiG-23 that was shot down, looks like the pilot bailed out but its unclear if he survived.

Doesn't seem terribly likely that he did :(

I was looking at photos earlier and the chute still looks very much closed as he's about to hit the ground.

[Tribesman]

Can you explain why you have a problem about Germany not joining the show.
MH , he would also have a problem if they did join the show, its just the way it is.
If Germany had joined in it would be a secret EU conspiracy with american imperialism being run by the shia who are the sunni in conjunction with Erdogan and the greater plan to breed civilisation out of existance.
If Merkel had gone along with it she would be bowing down to Islamic fundamentlists and crazy arabs, if she didn't then she would be cowtowing to crazy fundamentalists and pandering to arab dictators.

[Jimbuna]

Doesn't seem terribly likely that he did :(

I was looking at photos earlier and the chute still looks very much closed as he's about to hit the ground.

Even if he did survive I should imagine he would be dead a minute or two later as a direct consequence of the actions of his welcoming committee :doh:

[MH]

well, the only thing that could make this even remotely entertaining is if the USA stays out of it. It would be worth it to see what France and Britain alone can do. There was a time each nation could simultaneously fight 3 Libyas in different continents.

But that's unlikely to be the case. No one wants to miss out on a chance for some righteous bomb throwing

Hillary Clinton says we "should not doubt our commitment" to form a huge high tech alliance that can smash up another third world s--theap.

I like her official use of *things we fear gaddafi might do* as justification. It is the world of August!

As it seems US went along with UK and France in this case.
Not the other way around.

[Freiwillige]

I think Germany made the sound choice in sitting this one out. I keep reading in the headlines how Daffy duck is slaughtering civilians, which is probably true to some extent but in a civil war any rebel who is injured suddenly can become a civilian casualty to the media since he is not in uniform!

I doubt Daffy duck is ordering wholesale slaughter of civilians. It seems as if his military is fighting a legitimate armed uprising.

Daffy duck said it best in his own words to Obama "What would you do if armed rebels took one of your cities by force?" Hmmm lets think about that for a minute, Any time a US state goes rogue the US government has crushed the rebellion with force or threats of force. (See US civil war)

Granted that was a long time ago but lets say for shivs and giggles Texas pulled a Stufu to the Government and said peace were out! How long before the tanks would be rolling in?

Until I know that he is targeting civilians not militants I say its a personal issue let them sort it out.

[joegrundman]

egos are at stake, now freiwillige! It's curtains for gaddafi

[CCIP]

I'm not for war in any regard, but I don't think there's any sense in defending Gaddafi or suggesting that his response to this is anything but brutal. The problem is that all of this is coming years if not decades too late. He's already done the damage.

Meanwhile, neat pictures of the Canadian jets checking in and out in Scotland. Looks like these are in theater by now.

[joegrundman]

I'm not for war in any regard, but I don't think there's any sense in defending Gaddafi or suggesting that his response to this is anything but brutal. The problem is that all of this is coming years if not decades too late. He's already done the damage.

Meanwhile, neat pictures of the Canadian jets checking in and out in Scotland. Looks like these are in theater by now.

a) how do you know his suppression of the rebellion is especially brutal given that this rebellion is armed? Please elaborate on the nature of this brutality - are there for example mass executions of prisoners that you know about?

b) kindly elaborate on this sentence because i don't know what damage you mean, specifically over the last decade.

The problem is that all of this is coming years if not decades too late. He's already done the damage.

[CCIP]

The US military has just announced that cruise missiles have been used. At the same time, reports of large explosions around Tripoli.

Yup, it's definitely going on now.

[Castout]

http://runninginheels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sarkozy_1177912073.jpg

Love the man or hate the man but to me Sarkozy and the French DELIVERS!!:yeah:

I've always thought that Merkel and Sarkozy as the two best world leaders well until Obama and Cameron came to the world stage. :DL

[TLAM Strike]

http://runninginheels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sarkozy_1177912073.jpg

Love the man or hate the man but to me Sarkozy and the French DELIVERS!!:yeah:

I would gladly trade Obama for Sarkozy... :yeah:

[joegrundman]

Love the man or hate the man but to me Sarkozy and the French DELIVERS!!:yeah:

I've always thought that Merkel and Sarkozy as the two best world leaders well until Obama and Cameron came to the world stage. :DL

you put cameron in the top two world leaders:eek:

what do you know about him that we don't?

[Torplexed]

They're calling it "Operation Odyssey Dawn."

Sounds like some sort of New Age focus group. :hmmm:

Whatever happened to cool operational names like Overlord and Downfall?

[Jimbuna]

you put cameron in the top two world leaders:eek:

what do you know about him that we don't?


LOL :DL

[CCIP]

Pentagon just announced 112 Tomahawks fired at 20 targets in the "integrated air defense system", from both US and British ships in the med.

"First time of impact was approximately 1500 Eastern Standard Time", according to the spokesman.

[CCIP]

Also apparently, we now have a name for the coalition op: "Odyssey Dawn"

[Oberon]

*whistles*

That's a helluva opening salvo.

Reporter: "How long will the bomb damage assessment take? Hours or Days?"
Vice-Admiral: "Between Hours and Days"

:haha:

EDIT: The Libyan propaganda machine has started "The Zionist air forces have hit a hospital with terminally ill patients. Forward! And the struggle continues!"

At least we know where Comical Ali has gone...

[gimpy117]

The US military has just announced that cruise missiles have been used. At the same time, reports of large explosions around Tripoli.

Yup, it's definitely going on now.

oh boy here we go again...

[CCIP]

Libyan TV is live again with statements.
:damn:

Seriously, what I want to know is, who are they trying to convince with THAT kind of language?
They really do sound amazingly stupid and insane by any objective measure - and certainly making the Western propaganda's job (and let's face it, there is propaganda on all sides) substantially easier. It's just too easy to dismiss them as screaming quacks.

[edit] yup, now it's Zionist Crusaders allied with illegal militias of the Al Quaeda bombing hospitals full of terminal patients... :roll:

[Gerald]

Gaddafi's propaganda machine has started to let

[Tribesman]

The Libyan propaganda machine has started "The Zionist air forces have hit a hospital with terminally ill patients. Forward! And the struggle continues!"


Good old daffy, so it is al-qaida and the zionists working together that is behind the civil war.
Were these terminal patients suffering from that drug overdose that started the civil war

[Oberon]

Libyan state TV says that a French warplane has been shot down over Tripoli.
Hopefully that is a lie, we will see what the French say.

Of course, many will now be saying "Well, what about Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Syria, China and so on?" Which is a good question...but the die is cast and we shall continue to watch this unfold.


EDIT: And there it is! "The fighting inside Benghazi is those in the city wanting to cleanse the city of the rebels. The Libyan army has kept its word on the ceasefire."

Spanish F-18s taking off from Madrid.

[CCIP]

As for Sarkozy, he is a good public face for this operation, you have to admit. He's got the sophistication and at least the appearance of being sharp and informed of what's going on - something which for example Bush as a spokesman for the Iraq campaign lacked. He also seems to deliver a lot of tough talk, whereas Cameron and even Obama have been much more evasive and indirect.

Obama however may have been more instrumental to this. I would give him some credit for maneuvering the Arab League's support and bringing us to where we are today - for good or worse. For him, if this operation proves to have at least the appearance of effectiveness, it may well be a big political win on foreign policy in the long run.

But I for one hope that the currently spokesperson-less Lybian people aren't forgotten. Whatever the case, they'll be the ones paying a tragic price here.

[Capt. Morgan]

French jet launches token attack.

Libyan Radar lights up just long enough up to see if anything else is on the way, and to deal with the attacker.

U.S. Recon Aircraft logs radar locations while they are active and passes info on to their ships with the missiles. who configure and deliver the real attack.

Don't really see how you can say Obama's lagging here.

[Torplexed]

(Reuters) - Russia said on Saturday it regretted a decision by Western nations to take military action in Libya.

Well, you had veto power at the UN and you abstained instead. :hmmm:

[Fish]

Plane shot down at Bengazi



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKezzxFgEvY&NR=1

[TarJak]

(Reuters) - Russia said on Saturday it regretted a decision by Western nations to take military action in Libya.

Well, you had veto power at the UN and you abstained instead. :hmmm:
When you have a bet each way, you need to publicly voice your concerns otherwise risk your arms sales contracts.:03:

[Jimbuna]

Up to 120 Cruise fired by US warships; US & British subs against Lybian air Defense systems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972

[STEED]

Up to 120 Cruise fired by US warships; US & British subs against Lybian air Defense systems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972

So have we now run out of missiles?

[Jimbuna]

So have we now run out of missiles?

More than likely....considering the defence review cuts :DL

[TarJak]

Ask Vladimir if he'll lend you some.:03:

[Skybird]

Or the opposite is true: they already ran out of targets! :D

[Platapus]

So what happens if the rebels turn out to be worse than Qaddafi?

We don't even know what or who the rebels are or what they want, but we are using our military to support them?

Suppose the rebels turn out to be AQ based?

Some always assume that those who overthrow a dictator are pro-democracy. A hazardous assumption. :yep:

[Bilge_Rat]

According to various websites, the French Air Force has been in operation over Libya since 1 pm local time. They put up 6-8 Rafales and 4 Mirages over Libya. They have carried out a minimum of 4 ground strikes, neutralising "many" Libyan AFVs.

There are unconfirmed reports that 1 plane has been shot down, but France denies this.

The French are diplomatic whores who will get into bed with anyone who furthers their interest, but they currently have the best/most professional armed forces in western europe. If they are taking an active role, I predict some serious "ass whuppin".



http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operation...nes-francaises (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/harmattan/libye-debut-des-operations-aeriennes-francaises)


http://www.lefigaro.fr/international...sez-le-feu.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/03/19/01003-20110319ARTFIG00319-libye-kadhafi-viole-le-cessez-le-feu.php)


http://elysee.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/0...de-la-defense/ (http://elysee.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/03/19/les-forces-francaises-ont-ouvert-le-feu-a-17h45-sur-un-vehicule-militaire-libyen-indique-le-ministere-de-la-defense/)

[Alex]

well, the only thing that could make this even remotely entertaining is if the USA stays out of it. It would be worth it to see what France and Britain alone can do. There was a time each nation could simultaneously fight 3 Libyas in different continents.

But that's unlikely to be the case. No one wants to miss out on a chance for some righteous bomb throwing

Hillary Clinton says we "should not doubt our commitment" to form a huge high tech alliance that can smash up another third world s--theap.

I like her official use of *things we fear gaddafi might do* as justification. It is the world of August!
Wasn't it all predictable since the beginning of the riots in the middle east ?
But I must say I'm still wondering how the presence in this fight of these guys behind Mr I got the Nobel peace prize while at war can be considered a normal procedure by people living anywhere in the world.
Anyway, we may be able to handle Libya ourselves. But whatever Hillary says, or whatever anyone thinks, or does ? Once there is crude oil in the place, the united states just need to enter the battlefield, period.

Yet I'm still wondering what France got to do in Libya fighting Khadafi's troops while we're not capable to handle our own muslim community in here, LOL. Don't you go sweeping the floor in another country when yours is clean ?

I'd not say most of us are against French presence in Libya, but most of us don't understand what we have to do in there seeing the current situation in our OWN country, at least.

[Tribesman]

We don't even know what or who the rebels are or what they want, but we are using our military to support them?
What is even better is that the UAE is sending forces to help protect the pro democracy protests in Libya while at the same time sending forces to bahrain to crush the pro democracy protests.

[Skybird]

Wasn't it all predictable since the beginning of the riots in the middle east ?
But I must say I'm still wondering how the presence in this fight of these guys behind Mr I got the Nobel peace prize while at war can be considered a normal procedure by people living anywhere in the world.
Anyway, we may be able to handle Libya ourselves. But whatever Hillary says, or whatever anyone thinks, or does ? Once there is crude oil in the place, the united states just need to enter the battlefield, period.

Yet I'm still wondering what France got to do in Libya fighting Khadafi's troops while we're not capable to handle our own muslim community in here, LOL. Don't you go sweeping the floor in another country when yours is clean ?

While I am split over taking action over Lybia (we agfain can just help to bring an Islamist bunch of cavemen to power), I simply demand the Europeans that they put their money where their always loud and wide open mouth is. Also, Gaddafi was and is of no real use for Europe, different Western comfortable tolerance for regimes like Egypt that helped to hold Muslim Brotherhood in check.

Just don'T deliver weapons to Lybia, nor allow Russia or China to later sell them weapons. These trades of hightech weapons to Muslim countries and failed states MUST STOP. Even more so when the customer nation demands technology transfer to be part fo the deal.

[Skybird]

So what happens if the rebels turn out to be worse than Qaddafi?

We don't even know what or who the rebels are or what they want, but we are using our military to support them?

Suppose the rebels turn out to be AQ based?

Some always assume that those who overthrow a dictator are pro-democracy. A hazardous assumption. :yep:
We have supported worse figures in the Iranian uprise and called leaders our friends that are outspoken enemies of the West and want the nuclear armament of Iran as passionately as Ahmadinejadh. We call fundamewn tlaists as moderates there just because we do not want to know their real nature.

The uncertainty over Lybia'S rebels is an improvement, compared to this. Becasue the uncertainty bears an element of chance and opportunity - and that, no matter how unreliable and unpredictable that is, is more than in case of Egypt and Iran.

And if we find out that the new leaders are as bad as the old ones, then at least our pilots had some solid training under real conditions. It'S also the reason why I am strictlyx against delivering the rebels weapons. Let us bomb them a free lane to Lybian weapon depots instead.

[Capt. Morgan]

... Once there is crude oil in the place, the united states just need to enter the battlefield, period. :06:

The United States, among others, are participating in a U.N. operation at the request of the Arab League.

Regarding oil, it is always much cheaper to buy it then to fight for it.

[Alex]

Regarding oil, it is always much cheaper to buy it then to fight for it.
Indeed.
And so I don't like to think WE're actually doing the housecleaning before you enter there to pump it out. But that's just me.

[Onkel Neal]

a) how do you know his suppression of the rebellion is especially brutal given that this rebellion is armed? Please elaborate on the nature of this brutality - are there for example mass executions of prisoners that you know about?

b) kindly elaborate on this sentence because i don't know what damage you mean, specifically over the last decade.

Who cares? He's a dictator, that's enough, he has to go. Who's next? :rock:

They're calling it "Operation Odyssey Dawn."

Sounds like some sort of New Age focus group. :hmmm:

Whatever happened to cool operational names like Overlord and Downfall?
Lol, so true. :)

So what happens if the rebels turn out to be worse than Qaddafi?

We don't even know what or who the rebels are or what they want, but we are using our military to support them?

Suppose the rebels turn out to be AQ based?

Some always assume that those who overthrow a dictator are pro-democracy. A hazardous assumption. :yep:


Good point. Hopefully, the UN will insist and guide for elections.

[MH]

What is even better is that the UAE is sending forces to help protect the pro democracy protests in Libya while at the same time sending forces to bahrain to crush the pro democracy protests.

You talking about Shi'its protests against Suni opresion.
All aproved by the coalition.....

[joegrundman]

Also, clearly you think dictatorship is grounds enough for overthrow by the forces of democracy. It is a position to be held, certainly. If this is US policy, you'll be busy for the next few decades.



Yes, I do. We are way past a point in history where regions of people should be held hostage by a non-democratic dictator. Western powers should not allow it. Let the people decide, and if they elect another Hitler, we deal with that when the time comes.


Incidentally, what actually defines dictatorship in your opinion? Is any non-democratic system a dictatorship? Yes.

Or is a dictator only a generalissimo like Gaddafi rather than absolute hereditary monarchies? Absolute hereditary monarchies? Thise still exist? Remind me again what millenium this is? :) No region of people should be subject to a leader or govt that they had no say in setting up. That's an absolute.

Are democratically elected figures that hold an anti-US stance also dictators? No, just nations who are hostile to the US's interests. At least the people made their choice and can be accountable for the consequences.

[joegrundman]

:06:

The United States, among others, are participating in a U.N. operation at the request of the Arab League.

Regarding oil, it is always much cheaper to buy it then to fight for it.

it is true what you say

although the arab league i believe only supported the no fly zone. This may or may not turn out to cause issues

[Gargamel]

although the arab league i believe only supported the no fly zone.

Problem is, you can't enforce a no-flyzone without addressing the AA problem in some way.

[joegrundman]

Problem is, you can't enforce a no-flyzone without addressing the AA problem in some way.

maybe, and i can understand the point, but are all those US-intervention-loving peoples of the Middle East going to see it that way, or are they going to see it as the US taking an opportunity to batter another muslim country prior to occupation? I hope the former!

For they are who count right? Because whether you like it or not, Libya is now part of the war on terror and the war for muslim hearts and minds.

[Tribesman]

You talking about Shi'its protests against Suni opresion.
All aproved by the coalition.....
So those are nice dictators who are our friends. That didn't help mubarak though did it, they said he had to go for doing exactly what the shieks are doing.
So some friendly loons are OK even if they shoot pro democracy protesters, but what about Syria? they are shooting protesters, they sponsor terrorists(just like the saudis) why no intervention there? what about Iran? they shoot protesters too.

[CCIP]

While I recognize that there's certainly a bunch of contradictions and hipocrisy behind this, along with a very, very dubious endgame, at the end of the day I can't find a reason why lashing out at one nutty dictator is a bad thing even while ignoring a dozen others. Ultimately, I think something potentially very bad was about to happen in Benghazi, and I for one am glad that the coalition managed to step in just ahead of that. If you can't go after all of them, doesn't mean that stopping one of them can't be a good thing.


Also, in the second picture in this, am I correct that this is a periscope shot of a sub's own launches?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798183

[Alex]

While I am split over taking action over Lybia (we agfain can just help to bring an Islamist bunch of cavemen to power), I simply demand the Europeans that they put their money where their always loud and wide open mouth is.

In here, if anyone is open-minded enough to know what goal brought Sarko to power in his whole election campaign, it's you, Skybird. The little man didn't bring French people what he said, what they didn't dare to ask for, but still, what they needed, well, let's just say he's not considered any more a proper leader in here, especially since the h1n1 american crap. Therefore I'll just tell you we're noticing a certain rise of a certain political movement in here, whatever anyone thinks or does.
That doesn't mean I support it myself. I'll just say I understand why this political movement is qualified in advance for the second round of the next presidential elections.

Also, Gaddafi was and is of no real use for Europe, different Western comfortable tolerance for regimes like Egypt that helped to hold Muslim Brotherhood in check.
I find it to be a too simple thinking coming from you, Sky.
Following the same way of thinking I could come to the conclusion that we should nuke China and Russia, cause we can't find any use to them, ROFL.

Just don'T deliver weapons to Lybia, nor allow Russia or China to later sell them weapons. These trades of hightech weapons to Muslim countries and failed states MUST STOP. Even more so when the customer nation demands technology transfer to be part fo the deal.
While I'll not dare to let you know who got the same way of thinking regarding the allowing of this kind of people to possess weapons ;), I completely agree with you. And I'll say that there are a certain amount of African nations that didn't have the chance to see an improvement of the condition of their society through the last decades, as a matter of fact.
And so that dictature is the only essential and viable political regime to keep this people under control. Maghreb is not ready to live our life, most definitely. Kill Khadafi now, and what's going to happen ? Though Khadafi got the status he got in Libya since Nixon got to be president somewhere else in the world, the Libyan people may suffer from the difference between their living conditions before and after this UN (international organization created by ? *cough*) takeover.
But well. Remember. Khadafi is a dictator !!!!!!!! So who cares ??????? We're omniscient !!!!!!!!! We're all-knowing !!!!!!!!! We could even say that we're all African countries, in fact !!!!!!! So what the hell is khadafi doing on our own continent ??????? He's a real embarassment to us !!!!!!!!!!!! So let's go and kill Khadafi now.



We're God. :)

[Gargamel]

Also, in the second picture in this, am I correct that this is a periscope shot of a sub's own launches?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798183

It does look like a scope, but You can clearly see the ship (destroyer? AB class?) Launching them. It could be a good spotting scope with NV and camera attached. Course, I would think spotting scopes would also have horizontal markings too....

[Freiwillige]

Let me get right to the nut with the issue.

Sovereignty, Justified or not we just violated it twice within a decade against powers that were no immediate threat to us. Under a pretense of slaughtered civilians this time. The media just keeps pounding that drum in every article and every story with nothing but speculation and accusation to back it up.

Now I thought the reason we fought the Nazi's in WWII and stonewalled the Communists in the cold war was that neither would respect countries sovereignty! Acts of war without a declaration of war, starting to sound familiar.

[Skybird]

This German essay (http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article12889595/Die-Achse-Moskau-Tripolis-eine-unheilige-Allianz.html?print=true#reqdrucken) sheds some light on an interesting implication, and that is the reason why Moscow maintains this Russian-Lybian axis. It is not oil, it is gas. While the EU tries to become more independent from Russian gas, Norway is expected to reach peak oil for it'S fields in 2013, Moscow has little interest in letting the Europeans off the hook so easily. 30% of Germany's gas is from Russia, 50%-80% of Southern nations', and Eastern nations sometimes depend up to 100% on Russian gas. Moscow has sold military hardware worth many billions to Lybia, and while the latest deals are still not delivered because Gaddafi still has not payed, Moscow implemented deals for Gazprom that give it tremendous influence in using gas fields in Northern Africa and to install pipelines form there to Europe. So even when the EU tries to evade to North africa to become more independent from Russian supplies from the East, it again will need to deal with Gazprom, which tries to become a global player, and as an economical arm of Moscow's policy-making tries to strengthen it'S influence on the EU - by forcing it into a position where Europe can be politically blackmailed, and prices be dictated.

The demand for regime change and democracy in North africa, seen that way, is not just an idealistic adventure, but is about Europe'S independence form Russia and preventing to fall under growing influence by Moscow. What is a civil war and a fight for more Islamism or freedom in those places, indeed can be seen as energy independence wars from Europe'S perpsectioves. This gives these conflicts a very material, solid self-interest Europe has in al this.

And this is what makes the German position even more silly and shortsighted.

Seen that way, the wisdom of outsourcing European energy production by installing solar panel fields in Northafrican deserts, also is a silly project. It again makes Aurope vulnerable. Either from Russian influenc ein that region, or corrupt or Islamic regimes.

[Gargamel]

Now I thought the reason we fought the Nazi's in WWII and stonewalled the Communists in the cold war was that neither would respect countries sovereignty! Acts of war without a declaration of war, starting to sound familiar.

I think the comparisons there are a little extreme. Those two nations invaded, conquered, and absorbed the conquered. The US (and friends) are not absorbing or colonizing these countires in the same fashion. While there are interests left in place in the countries, they have been left to rule themselves.

But your point is still valid.

The US foreign policy over the last 50 years has seemed to be more like a big brother getting his nose into his siblings business, more than a country looking out for it's own interest's.

[Schroeder]

Now I thought the reason we fought the Nazi's in WWII [...] was that neither would respect countries sovereignty!
And here I was thinking all the time that we had declared war on you....:hmm2:

[Skybird]

And this is from - always biting - Henryk Broder. Like so often, his irony is right on the mark.

About the neutrality of the German heart, and the heartlessness this results in. Or in other words: about the stupid babbling of Merkel.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/neutralitaet_ohne_herz/

[Type941]

my 2 cents on the issue.

On leadership: Sarkozy is an incompetent fool with napolenic concept and he is an awful person to lead this. It is OBVIOUS all of this for him is a PR campaign. However this is questionable given how many muslims live in france and he's biting more than he can chew. his previous war experience in Georgia Russia conflict has shown that he's a spineless coward who is all about talk but can be easily intimidated. He's of the Berlusconi mould, but at least Berlousconi is just dangerous to young women who dont know what they're getting into.


On the operation: it looks too raw and unplanned. I've no idea what's the play and goal here? Make a stalemate? Well, that they can but that's the worst. The goal should be covert opps and taking out the lunatic. It all sounds too similar to the Iraq now. With tiny difference - this is right near europes door step and guy, unlike Saddam, has a history of sponsoring terrorism on real scale. Lockerby anyone..

[Tribesman]

his previous war experience in Georgia Russia conflict has shown that he's a spineless coward who is all about talk but can be easily intimidated.
The Georgia episode showed that he wasn't a complete idiot.
Some people however think that idiocy is the same as bravery and that people who are not idiots are somehow cowards.

[Freiwillige]

And here I was thinking all the time that we had declared war on you....:hmm2:

Officially yes, But we left you little choice. We violated neutrality laws, armed opponents, physically escorted Allied ships and fired on German's well before war was declared. There was also the sinking of a German merchant vessel in the Caribbean sea by joint U.S. and Dutch forces.

[joegrundman]

While I recognize that there's certainly a bunch of contradictions and hipocrisy behind this, along with a very, very dubious endgame, at the end of the day I can't find a reason why lashing out at one nutty dictator is a bad thing even while ignoring a dozen others. Ultimately, I think something potentially very bad was about to happen in Benghazi, and I for one am glad that the coalition managed to step in just ahead of that. If you can't go after all of them, doesn't mean that stopping one of them can't be a good thing.



so you read the economist, ccip.

And you think that consistency and standards have no place in the global policing business? And you think that (so far unsubstantiated by you) fears of what might have followed military defeat for the rebels is sufficient reason for intervention. Is rhetoric sufficient grounds for these fears to be acted upon?

Is the only lesson, don't get on the wrong side of the US? That is the lesson that is being underscored here.

Not that I have a problem with that. My problem is the end game, now we are again in the regime change and nation building business. And Iraq and Afghanistan showed us one thing - the end game can last many times longer than the early and mid games

[Schroeder]

Officially yes, But we left you little choice. We violated neutrality laws, armed opponents, physically escorted Allied ships and fired on German's well before war was declared. There was also the sinking of a German merchant vessel in the Caribbean sea by joint U.S. and Dutch forces.
Points taken.

[Type941]

Seen that way, the wisdom of outsourcing European energy production by installing solar panel fields in Northafrican deserts, also is a silly project. It again makes Aurope vulnerable. Either from Russian influenc ein that region, or corrupt or Islamic regimes.

that region is full of rock throwing people. Guess the solar panels dont' need bombs to take them out, rocks will do. :doh:


IN GENERAL, i think we in the "western world" have become so allergic to war, that we object to it always, and always are the first to criticize ourselves. I think people like Qaddafi need to be taken out, and if we happen to have the means - then so be it. I think that Europe is in general being overrun by now by immigration who don't want to integrate but only use the good parts of our life, and this whole fundamental liberalism is a threat to Europe in long run. we should stop crucifying ourselves and let the military do its job and clean up Qaddafi. Once he has no air control, it's going to be easier to find the SOB and get him. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with going after this guy in the circumstances. he's schizophrenic - just look at him. you just can't have him in power. All this fundamental liberalist politically correct bull**** that i'm reading about consistency and wot not - all that is irrelevant in this case. the guy should have been taken out years ago. its our fault and we're just fixing the mistake. I think there is right and wrong. I didn't care for war in Iraq, but everyone seems to be in consensus and there is a UN mandate. So - i hope this lest the military fully do its job and take the bastard out or make him submit.

[Jimbuna]

my 2 cents on the issue.

On leadership: Sarkozy is an incompetent fool with napolenic concept and he is an awful person to lead this. It is OBVIOUS all of this for him is a PR campaign. However this is questionable given how many muslims live in france and he's biting more than he can chew. his previous war experience in Georgia Russia conflict has shown that he's a spineless coward who is all about talk but can be easily intimidated. He's of the Berlusconi mould, but at least Berlousconi is just dangerous to young women who dont know what they're getting into.


On the operation: it looks too raw and unplanned. I've no idea what's the play and goal here? Make a stalemate? Well, that they can but that's the worst. The goal should be covert opps and taking out the lunatic. It all sounds too similar to the Iraq now. With tiny difference - this is right near europes door step and guy, unlike Saddam, has a history of sponsoring terrorism on real scale. Lockerby anyone..

You would have thought the people of Libya would give Gaddafi a bit more respect ...........

After all , he cured the Lockerbie bomber of cancer.

[Freiwillige]

Why does it always boil down to this argument "The guy should have been taken out years ago."

I seem to hear that as justification for every time we want to pop our tomahawk rocks off.

If that is the case then so be it but things change. I'm not PC and I'm not anti war I just have strict guidelines as to what constitutes justifications for war and what doesn't. I think any war you're country gets involved in should be defensive. Now if your country is not threatened by the opposing country then why get involved? In fact I cannot name one war we have been in in the last century that wasn't offensive in nature. :arrgh!:

[Gerald]

Even if the effort is sanctioned by the UN, I think, it's been a bit slow, they could have acted earlier, and in many ways

[tommo8993]

Gunna cost the UK a fortune, our planes are coming from cyprus.

If only we had a way to get them closer, maybe launch from a ship... a sort of aircraft carrying ship...

[Skybird]

Gunna cost the UK a fortune, our planes are coming from cyprus.

If only we had a way to get them closer, maybe launch from a ship... a sort of aircraft carrying ship...
And carriers don'T cost you a fortune to maintain them 365 days a year?

[joea]

Why does it always boil down to this argument "The guy should have been taken out years ago."

I seem to hear that as justification for every time we want to pop our tomahawk rocks off.

If that is the case then so be it but things change. I'm not PC and I'm not anti war I just have strict guidelines as to what constitutes justifications for war and what doesn't. I think any war you're country gets involved in should be defensive. Now if your country is not threatened by the opposing country then why get involved? In fact I cannot name one war we have been in in the last century that wasn't offensive in nature. :arrgh!:

Disagree, WWII of course and what about Korea? Or was it the US that attacked North Korea?

Regarding the Middle east I am very skeptical about the current operation for reasons many have stated, especially with who we are supporting-who are the rebels and how did they get so well armed so quickly (well-armed in comparison with the protesters in Tunisia and Egypt.

[Freiwillige]

Disagree, WWII of course and what about Korea? Or was it the US that attacked North Korea?

Regarding the Middle east I am very skeptical about the current operation for reasons many have stated, especially with who we are supporting-who are the rebels and how did they get so well armed so quickly (well-armed in comparison with the protesters in Tunisia and Egypt.

Okay you have a point on Korea and WWII (Japanese theater)

Also doesn't anybody find it weird that after meeting with the rebel leaders once, Europe was so quick to take sides. Any oil trade backroom deals set up?:hmmm:

[joegrundman]

Okay you have a point on Korea and WWII (Japanese theater)

Also doesn't anybody find it weird that after meeting with the rebel leaders once, Europe was so quick to take sides. Any oil trade backroom deals set up?:hmmm:

i don't think that can be it - britain already had a backroom oil deal with gaddafi

[August]

n m

[Jimbuna]

Latest on BBC News 24, the Arab League are backtracking on support for the UN forces, they say air strikes are going too far.

Day two and getting cold feet already :hmmm:

[Freiwillige]

Latest on BBC News 24, the Arab League are backtracking on support for the UN forces, they say air strikes are going too far.

Day two and getting cold feet already :hmmm:

And the Snafu begins!:yeah:

[Jimbuna]

And one more thing.....I wonder what is to become of his Amazonian Guard?

Probably more likely to be on the receiving end of a guided muscle rather than a guided missile :hmmm:

:03:

[STEED]

Latest on BBC News 24, the Arab League are backtracking on support for the UN forces, they say air strikes are going too far.

Day two and getting cold feet already :hmmm:

Well we all saw that one coming. ;)

[Jimbuna]

The one thing I don't want to see coming is the inevitable report of an aircraft being destroyed by AAA or accident or of any cause for that matter.

The feeling in my bladder says it may well not be that far off :nope:

[Freiwillige]

And one more thing.....I wonder what is to become of his Amazonian Guard?

Probably more likely to be on the receiving end of a guided muscle rather than a guided missile :hmmm:

:03:

Uh are they hot? If not I vote missile! ;)

Actually third one down is kinda hot.

http://www.usbornebookswow.com/business-advice/photo-gaddafi-female-bodyguards.aspx

[STEED]

Arab League criticizes allied airstrikes on Libya

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRRC-Ij_xoxpHpSxJd-LVDd1JHXQ?docId=999067b967b7412c83d7cce7921da560

[STEED]

And now...

Arab League Splits From West Over Libya Bombing

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110320/twl-arab-league-splits-from-west-over-li-3fd0ae9.html

[Oberon]

http://qpawn.beardedfool.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

Great, so now the Arab League backtracks, Obama will freak out and stop his aircraft doing airstrikes and the UK and France will be left with the ground pounding.


The way I'm looking at it is that this is a dangerous game, now where do we stop? Eventually the rebels are going to move west, and we will support them from the air. Then it will be regime change time.
After this is over, I wonder how many other Arab nations will start crying that they want their leaders removed by the Coalition.

Still, Daffy does need to go, he should have Mubarraked and he might still do so and do a runner to Venezuela when the endgame comes.

This will be a mess when it's all done. It'll all work out, Daffy will go...but it's just going to wind up as another reason for the Middle East to hate everyone outside of the Middle East, not that they really need a reason.

[Rockstar]

So Euro and U.S. make a big to do, start some fireworks, fire some missiles blow up some infrastructure and everyone here pees their pants with glee thinking Qwudify is against the ropes. Last week they were going to give him an award for humanitarian progress in his country today he is an evile dictator that must go.

A no-fly zone is started against Codhafee but what good does it do without ground support? Anyone here ready for that again? Almost immediately support is lost from the arab league. Doesn't look as if anyone is very commited to anything to me.


.

[Freiwillige]

Daffy duck is far from finished. At most I see a stalemate because despite western media glorifying the Rebels Daffy duck still holds allot of loyalists factions as well.

The worm has turned, Its gonna be interesting to see how this plays out.

[STEED]

Libya split in two? :hmmm:

And not the first time that's happen.

[nikimcbee]

I'll just throw this in:"No blood for Libyan oil":haha:

[HunterICX]

Would love to see the UN action result into another failure.

Lybia's rebellion was not our business to begin with.
and in respect of ''protecting the civilians'' the UN has proven not to give a crap about civilian lives in the past and I don't expect them to do that any time soon.

HunterICX

[Type941]

And now...



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110320/twl-arab-league-splits-from-west-over-li-3fd0ae9.html


When they said they want to have a no-fly zone, in my mind, back few weeks ago already, this meant:
1) destruction of AA defences
2) destruction of armed forced attacking rebel strongholds
3) destruction of airfields
4) destruction of aircraft on the ground capable of mounting challenge to the allied craft

Now. Where's the surprise? Wtf do people expect or think no-fly zone means?! Of course they're gonna do all of the above and during night.

And OF COURSE Duffy will wage an information war because that is the ONLY war he has a chance of winning if he does the following:
1) show pictures of people in hospital
2) show pictures of dead people
3) preferably show pictures of wounded or dead women and children
4) deploy fanatcis as human shields
5) continuously run this on TV and hope that:

a) people in west become outraged (with usual fundamental liberalism it won't take long)
b) Arab nations start freaking out (already working)

SO it's quite predictable how it's developing. Question is does UN force know how to handle this? I guess NO. hence' the way this is looking like it's a stalemate and won't end anywhere.

I think the point is to really really put pressure on Duffy - enough to make his entourage get desperate enough to throw him under the buss - the Mubarak move.


BUT, the TIMING of this is as bad as it can be. We're barely out of global recession, have to deal with Japan's fallout concequences and supply chain damage and now we go ahead and throw rockets under soft belly of old Europe. Sucky timing indeed.

[Skybird]

Arab League.


:yawn:


I again say that while regime chnage in Egypt was not in Europe's interest, becasue Mubarak kept the fundamentalists in check and showed to be a solid partner for Europe, Gaddafi never was a solid oartner but an attacker aginst Europe, untrustworthy to the max, anbd we do not know what the rebels stand for. Opposition in Egypt most likely will allow fundamentalists to come to power sooner or later, butg in Libya'S case we cannot be so sure of that. This uncertainty holds our chnace for getting something better than Gaddafi. And that is why we should make sure that both sides can fight it out on equal terms. At worts we get what we already havbe had. And best we get something better.


The other reasoin why we must have an interest in Libya is to disrupt Gazprom'S flanking manouver to paralyse Europe'S attempt to become more independent from Russian gas deliveries. And this second reason maybe is even more important for us than the first.


No gro7und intervention, just keeping the window of opportunity open, to have a chance to see regime change there.

That's why we are bombing Gaddafi's airforce and air defence. To see if the uncertai8nty we have about the rebel's nature and intention can turn out to be something showing as being beneficial for us. That'S why we do not allow Gaddafi'S airforce and heavy weapons to smash the rebels.


Butr further we shall not go. No ground intervention, no weapon deliveries. At best airbomb the rebels a path to Lybian weapon depots.


To me, these reasons make a hole lot more sense to get militarily engaged (earlier!) than the Kosovo war, the Gulf war 1993, the Gulf war 2003 or the Afghanistan war.


Sarkozy is being overestimated by some people here. For him, it is just an opüportunity to outmanouver the great internal Euroopena rival, Germany, and to profilate himself as one of the great leaders of Europe (under a French flag). Do not read too much into this. States of power or who have had an imperial past, tend to claim spheres of influence. For the US, that is Middle America and Wetsern Europe and the Gulf region. For the Russians, it is for example the Balkans. And for France it traditioinally is it's former colonies, so it is Algeria, Libya, Chad, and in general the Western part of the Mediterranean. When Sarkozy says "European", he always means "French". Never forget that.

[Bilge_Rat]

The French Air Force announced they had 15+ aircraft over Libya on sunday. They all appear to be flying interdiction missions brewing up Libyan AFVs on the roads to Benghazi (photo below). However, I think they are also including support aircraft and do not have more strike aircraft than the 6-8 Rafales and 4 Mirage 2000s they were using yesterday.

They are also reporting their aircraft were engaged by Libyan air defences on saturday, although none were shot down, but that the Libyan air defences are inactive today.


http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/cd7ac75a-5301-11e0-b742-b2c1c823a69e.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/012444ec-52f7-11e0-b742-b2c1c823a69e.jpg


http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/03/20/01003-20110320ARTFIG00032-libye-kadhafi-fustige-l-agression-de-la-coalition.php

http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2011/03/19/suvez-la-situation-en-libye-en-direct_1495503_3212.html#ens_id=1481986

[Onkel Neal]

Also, clearly you think dictatorship is grounds enough for overthrow by the forces of democracy. It is a position to be held, certainly. If this is US policy, you'll be busy for the next few decades.



Yes, I do. We are way past a point in history where regions of people should be held hostage by a non-democratic dictator. Western powers should not allow it. Let the people decide, and if they elect another Hitler, we deal with that when the time comes.


Incidentally, what actually defines dictatorship in your opinion? Is any non-democratic system a dictatorship? Yes.

Or is a dictator only a generalissimo like Gaddafi rather than absolute hereditary monarchies? Absolute hereditary monarchies? Thise still exist? Remind me again what millenium this is? :) No region of people should be subject to a leader or govt that they had no say in setting up. That's an absolute. That includes the Saudi dictators as well.

Are democratically elected figures that hold an anti-US stance also dictators? No, just nations who are hostile to the US's interests. At least the people made their choice and can be accountable for the consequences.

PS: I apologize for messing up your original reply, I hit EDIT instead of REPLY, very sorry. :cry:

[Jimbuna]

Just been talking to someone on another forum who watched two separate flights (5 Typhoons and 1 VC-10 tanker in each) take off for deployment to the Med a little while ago....they were in 11 Sqdn markings.

There is still a niggling part in me that marvels at how selective governments are when deciding what civilians to protect. Definitely seems like you have more chance of 'protection' if your country has oil.

Places like Zimbabwe for example certainly don't.

[Schroeder]

I believe it's the baptism of fire for the Typhoon.

I'm still divided about the decision to go there. I have a bad feeling that this might just blow up into our faces.:-?

[Freiwillige]

Boy this is getting sloppier than three pigs fighting over a trough! France says regime change, The US says hold on a minute we never said that and the Arab's say we were behind you until the bombs fell but now you have gone too far!

Operation (not to well thought out) should be the name of this one.

[Randomizer]

Let's recap at H +4-days: a coalition of Western democracies use a UN resolution where one-third of the Security Counsel abstained allowing employment of military force to facilitate the removal of an oil-rich despot for doing violence to his own people. Or at any rate more violence than has been the norm for some forty years past.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Bilge_Rat]

photos from the front.

apparently the result of french air strikes around Benghazi:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00110.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00109.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00112.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00111.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/03/20/01003-20110320DIMWWW00154-images-les-premieres-frappes-en-libye-sont-un-succes.php

[Jimbuna]

I forgot to mention @#201 that the Typhoons and tankers took off from RAF Brize Norton :oops:

[TLAM Strike]

photos from the front.

apparently the result of french air strikes around Benghazi:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00110.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00109.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00112.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/20/20110320PHOWWW00111.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/03/20/01003-20110320DIMWWW00154-images-les-premieres-frappes-en-libye-sont-un-succes.php
Looks like SP Guns. Nice shooting ALA. :salute:

[Bilge_Rat]

short video of the Rafales of the Armee de l'Air Francaise taking off for Libya yesterday:


http://www.leparisien.fr/diaporama-videos/index.php?sig=iLyROoafzmy-&csig=&source=home&pub=30028&rub=par:www:une

[Type941]

makes good TV those images.
But that was the point, i don't understand what the Arab league was thinking UN would do.


Btw, if you read Russian newspapers, you'd be led to believe this is a NATO operation. for real. :)

[Bilge_Rat]

Le Monde is reporting Libyan AA has opened up over Tripoli. Dont know who is over there now, the RAF?

It seems the coalition divided up the territory. The French in the east around benghazi and the British around Tripoli. Anyone have any info on that?

Found this map, the red stars on the top map are coalition airstrikes:

http://s1.lemde.fr/image/2011/03/20/960x640/1495982_5_bc2e_la-carte-des-combats-en-lybie.gif

[Rockstar]

All well and good if it was 'the people' the Euro lead coalition was protecting. By the way who is leading this parade of shiny mesmerizing lights anyways? What too is the no-fly zone supposed to achieve if most of the action is on the ground and Hataphphy is alive still leading the way and crushing rebellion?

BOOM BOOM BOOM Bang ZAP zip zip zing! Look at the freedom and democracy come alive!

You do not INSTALL democracy.

[Tchocky]

You do not INSTALL democracy.

That's why there won't be boots on the ground.

[joegrundman]

That's why there won't be boots on the ground.

yeah there will

[joegrundman]

Yes, I do. We are way past a point in history where regions of people should be held hostage by a non-democratic dictator. Western powers should not allow it. Let the people decide, and if they elect another Hitler, we deal with that when the time comes.


Incidentally, what actually defines dictatorship in your opinion? Is any non-democratic system a dictatorship? Yes.

Or is a dictator only a generalissimo like Gaddafi rather than absolute hereditary monarchies? Absolute hereditary monarchies? Thise still exist? Remind me again what millenium this is? :) No region of people should be subject to a leader or govt that they had no say in setting up. That's an absolute. That includes the Saudi dictators as well.

Are democratically elected figures that hold an anti-US stance also dictators? No, just nations who are hostile to the US's interests. At least the people made their choice and can be accountable for the consequences.

PS: I apologize for messing up your original reply, I hit EDIT instead of REPLY, very sorry. :cry:

my masterpiece! Gone forever!

Anyway, I admire consistency of viewpoint, although I personally am not convinced that voting democracy is necessarily the only worthwhile system. At present only one non-democratic country is making a good attempt at proper government, and that's china. And China has rather uniquely solved many of the problems facing non-democratic systems.

While I'm glad I come from a democratic background, most Chinese I meet are also quite content with their government, so long as it continues to come up with the goods. It will be interesting to see how it develops and it is good for humanity in a global sense to have competing systems.

[Oberon]

I guess it all depends what you want out of life. How much freedom of expression you want. China is better now than it was under Mao, but if you say the wrong things to the wrong people then you'll still disappear.

[Castout]

Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.

And start rolling into Tripoli. But much of the rebellion has been quelled by international prolonged DELAY to the necessary, legal and right action :DL


Well at least I can watch Gaddafi forces being decimated and scared for a change. It;'s probably best to bomb his army.

Fly zone or no fly zone he's going to be a source of problem to the West and to some Arab countries anyway after all this. Like it or not he's a changed man. Luckily he blamed Al-Qaeda for this and I think now would be his best time to embrace Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is really a convenient excuse these days. Israelis used it now Gaddafi too. It's best for the international community to see him be ousted. Best for his people too more importantly. So I say bomb Gaddafi forces to pieces. Otherwise a clinging to power Gaddafi with his access to oil wealth could become a much potent threat than Osama Bin Laden that would probably make Osama to look like a Catholic church choir boy.

[TLAM Strike]

You do not INSTALL democracy. Japan 1947. ;)

[Jimbuna]

Canadian Hornets heading for the Med:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31656

[Gerald]

Canadian Hornets heading for the Med:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31656 Nice pic,:up:

[Capt. Morgan]

...
There is still a niggling part in me that marvels at how selective governments are when deciding what civilians to protect. Definitely seems like you have more chance of 'protection' if your country has oil.

Places like Zimbabwe for example certainly don't.

It can certainly seem that way, though I like to hope that U.S. foreign policy is becoming more enlightened. Ethiopia had nothing but sand - and still, the U.S. interceded on behalf of their citizens in 2007. No oil in Bosnia-Herzegovina, either.

I remain dubious of the idea of oil being a significant motivator for American military actions. There are many nations that despise America, but there is no nation on this earth that despises the American Dollar.

If Gaddafi does manage to keep control of Libya, I'm sure he'll still sell America as much oil as it wants to buy - at competitive prices.

[Gerald]

Doubtful, if he can manage in one piece, if it sells it to who has the fattest wallet, anyway everything is not just about oil

[Skybird]

Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.



No. The risk that sooner or later those weapons are used against "us", is too big. Bomb them a pathway towards Lybian weapon storage sites, but stop this madness of delivering weapons into the third world and to failed states.

Has nobody ever nopticed that in Africa and the Middle East and South-East asia enemies shooting at Wetsern troops for some reason, or the civilian population, never do that with weapons from local production, but always with weapons from Europe, America, Russia and China?

Air war, okay, all nice and wel, as you say, bomb Gaddafi's forces to piecesl - but no own boots on the ground, and no weapon deliveries. Not now, not in the future. Let them use rocks and sticks, if they must.

The day when somebody in the West decides to send in ground troops beyond the special teams operating there for recce, is the day I will u-turn and be fully against this operation.

[Oberon]

Looks like the US is going to hand over control over the operation to NATO or a UK/France coalition.

Please, for the love of god, don't hand it over to NATO. You know it will be screwed up in most ways possible and then some that aren't possible.
A UK/France coalition really isn't much better, but there's a bit less bureaucracy involved.

[Armistead]

Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.

And start rolling into Tripoli. But much of the rebellion has been quelled by international prolonged DELAY to the necessary, legal and right action :DL


Well at least I can watch Gaddafi forces being decimated and scared for a change. It;'s probably best to bomb his army.

Fly zone or no fly zone he's going to be a source of problem to the West and to some Arab countries anyway after all this. Like it or not he's a changed man. Luckily he blamed Al-Qaeda for this and I think now would be his best time to embrace Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is really a convenient excuse these days. Israelis used it now Gaddafi too. It's best for the international community to see him be ousted. Best for his people too more importantly. So I say bomb Gaddafi forces to pieces. Otherwise a clinging to power Gaddafi with his access to oil wealth could become a much potent threat than Osama Bin Laden that would probably make Osama to look like a Catholic church choir boy.

I would never arm them with US weapons. Do what we always do, go to another arab nation and get the weapons they need that are russian or china made. Like here in the US, we have to face the fact we're trading one group of crook nutheads with another.

[Gerald]

There, I agree, they assume it will be more practical in this way, but highly doubtful

[Skybird]

Looks like the US is going to hand over control over the operation to NATO or a UK/France coalition.

Please, for the love of god, don't hand it over to NATO. You know it will be screwed up in most ways possible and then some that aren't possible.
A UK/France coalition really isn't much better, but there's a bit less bureaucracy involved.
Turkey blocks NATO over this operation, so I would be surprised to see NATO taking over command. Leave it with the French, why not?! They show the greatest eagerness of all players in this operation. They were the first who had their bombers in the air, they were the first who were rumoured to have special forces leaked into Libya. If you give it to the Brits, you can as well give it to Washington again.

Sarko needs to hinder Gaddi that the Libyans payed Sarkoz' election campaign - if that is no motivation! :D

[SubV]

Obama "The Nobel Prize of Peace Laureate" just wants Lybia's oil.

It's that simple. A good reason enough to start another war.

Double standards in action... as always.

[Madox58]

they were the first who were rumoured to have special forces leaked into Libya.

They were not the first to put Covert Forces in Libya.
Just the first to have that fact a rumoured leak.

FACT:
In the 1980's, Israel placed Covert Units into Libya with instructions to drop U.S. gear so as to place blame upon the U.S.

FACT:
In the 1980's, The U.S. placed Covert Units into Libya with instructions to drop Israeli gear so as to place blame upon the Israelies!

This is standard operating procedures for nearly all Covert Units.
Confuse the target as to his enemies.
You play a phychological Game on them.

[Jimbuna]

There, I agree, they assume it will be more practical in this way, but highly doubtful

Oh please....(and with all due respect)...you have more to say than what your government has actually ever brought to the table....what do they bring now....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AGAIN!!

That is meant with heartfelt respect to you Gerald. :salute:

[Freiwillige]

Oh please....(and with all due respect)...you have more to say than what your government has actually ever brought to the table....what do they bring now....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AGAIN!!

That is meant with heartfelt respect to you Gerald. :salute:

How did you know my name?!?!:O:

[Gerald]

Oh please....(and with all due respect)...you have more to say than what your government has actually ever brought to the table....what do they bring now....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AGAIN!!

That is meant with heartfelt respect to you Gerald. :salute: Thank you Jim! I appreciate your words.Hmmm.... something was wrong of me, my comment would have gone to #223 Oberon's response :hmmm: :salute:

[Oberon]

Turkey blocks NATO over this operation, so I would be surprised to see NATO taking over command. Leave it with the French, why not?! They show the greatest eagerness of all players in this operation. They were the first who had their bombers in the air, they were the first who were rumoured to have special forces leaked into Libya. If you give it to the Brits, you can as well give it to Washington again.

Sarko needs to hinder Gaddi that the Libyans payed Sarkoz' election campaign - if that is no motivation! :D

Ah, good point, I keep forgetting Turkey is in NATO. Although that being said, the Turkish government have been agreeing that Daffy needs to go, but given how things are there I'd be very doubtful if they'd be willing to go the extra step and thrown their chips into the pile.
I agree though, the French should have it, they have the balls to take it all the way, and they haven't been ensnared majorly in the Middle Eastern dung heap for a while, Sarko needs the votes, so let him have his Falklands. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

How did you know my name?!?!:O:

Behave yersel ya bad bugga :DL

[Jimbuna]

Thank you Jim! I appreciate your words.Hmmm.... something was wrong of me, my comment would have gone to #223 Oberon's response :hmmm: :salute:

Your okay mate but you have to realise that this is a hard time for those of us whose countrymen are going into a battle situation and sometimes it is easier for those who don't contribute to the effort to simply 'make comment' from the comfort of 'non involvement'...again meant with all due respect.

[Jimbuna]

I've exclusive/first hand photos of the Tiffy's/Typhoon aircraft (all ten) taking off for CAP over Libya today but await permission to post from the photographer.

Hopefully I can post them soon.

[Gerald]

Your okay mate but you have to realise that this is a hard time for those of us whose countrymen are going into a battle situation and sometimes it is easier for those who don't contribute to the effort to simply 'make comment' from the comfort of 'non involvement'...again meant with all due respect. I understand the situation well, and it's tough, but I am flying to france today, so maybe I can stabilize the situation better,joking aside, I am fully aware of risk-taking here and hope for a speedy solution in the region.

[Jimbuna]

I understand the situation well, and it's tough, but I am flying to france today, so maybe I can stabilize the situation better,joking aside, I am fully aware of risk-taking here and hope for a speedy solution in the region.

Well don't you go letting any bugga con you into taking a flight on a Rafaele because you might find yourself being the first Swede to get involved in a European conflict for many a year :DL :O:

[Freiwillige]

I'm just shocked we haven't heard a French surrender joke yet.

[August]

All I know is:

"Obama lied and people died."

Where is Cindy Sheehan when we need her?

[Gerald]

Well don't you go letting any bugga con you into taking a flight on a Rafaele because you might find yourself being the first Swede to get involved in a European conflict for many a year :DL :O: The situation, It will most likely not going to happen, which would bring some "complications" just going to Lyon so far :D

[Castout]

Never said about US weapons. And these people have risen to a level that many Europeans and Americans themselves haven't. They are courageous people and not barbaric savages to me. These are the people who deserve their best and a better life. These are the people I respect for their courage and principles and stand.

It will be speedy!

I will be in Libya to accept Gaddafi surrender :haha:

But first to get through Pro Gaddafi's mob in Tripoli

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/roh_kudus/Best-Photos-2008-Spiegel-24.jpg


*Yeah I'm rather nuts I figured if some people would try to kill you for saying and doing nothing it's much better to be killed for saying and doing what you believe is right. At least there's justification and value to it. And it is noble too. A life cowed is not a life worth living. If you have to be persecuted be a persecuted opposition figure than just a persecuted figure.

[Jimbuna]

Here are those Tiffy/Typhoon pictures I mentioned earlier.

The guy who took them has kindly granted permission for them to be posted.

They are the sole property of the guy who took them (name on the bottom).

http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9611.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9612.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9613.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9614-2.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9615.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9616.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9617.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9618.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9619.jpg
http://www.igniter.org.uk/avpics/bmpics/9620.jpg

One observant person noticed the last aircraft is not fully armed...have the defence cuts bitten that deep already? :DL

[TLAM Strike]

Transmission from a USAF EC-130J PyOps aircraft to Libyan naval forces... (http://audioboo.fm/boos/307814-usaf-ec-130j-steel-74-transmitting-on-6877-0-khz-libya-20-march-2011)

[Bilge_Rat]

There are contradictory reports coming out.

Le Figaro reports that french planes struck Khadafi's armour on sunday at 6h30 and 10h30 (local time) outside Benghazi knocking out many dozens of AFVs including T-72s and SP guns. Khadafi's forces were in full retreat on sunday away from Benghazi.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/03/20/01003-20110320ARTFIG00255-l-aviation-francaise-sauve-les-insurges-de-benghazi.php

meanwhile Le Monde reports that French planes carried out no strikes on sunday because Khadafi's forces had pulled back. (One answer may be that the attacks were carried out by US or UK planes?).

President Sarkozy is also worried about the apparent pulllback by Arab nations and has been working the phones to convince Qatar and the UAE to follow through on their promises to commit aircraft to the No-Fly Zone.

http://elysee.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/03/21/le-chef-de-guerre-sarkozy-veut-arabiser-la-coalition-contre-kadhafi/

Of course, no one is talking about the Elephant in the room. The Rebels are too weak to push out Khadafi on their own and its doubtful the air strikes will be enough to tip the balance. Now that France, UK, Canada, Denmark and the USA are at war with Khadafi, they have no choice but to see it through to the end, which can only mean one thing: GROUND TROOPS.

[Jimbuna]

Well count Britain out....we can't afford to pay any more in taxes.

[Bilge_Rat]

I guess Sarkozy's phone calls worked. The president of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, is now backtracking. He says his comments of yesterday were wrongly interpreted and that the Arab League still supports UN Resolution 1973.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2011/03/21/97001-20110321FILWWW00572-ligue-arabe-propos-mal-interpretes.php

[tater]

In interviews with the "rebels," they call themselves muhajadin. Presumably this means they are engaged in a personal struggle to better themselves.

I'm not all that sure we'll end up any better helping them. I suppose helping just enough to prolong the conflict a long time is good, as then they can bump each other off.

[Bilge_Rat]

interesting article in the NY Times about the leading role France took in getting the international community to move forward on Libya:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/europe/21france.html?hpw

I have to say I now have more respect for Sarkozy. I was sure France would do nothing over Libya since that would have been the safe political move. Sarkozy's backers have major financial interests throughout North Africa and he has nothing to gain in a risky "humanitarian" gesture which could easily turn into a costly war.

Its nice to see all the major European powers: UK, France, Italy, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Norway as well as Canada, Qatar and the USA in a concerted, decisive effort....



...hmmm, I feel someone is missing from that list :hmmm:...oh well, no one important, I'm sure...:ping:

[Bilge_Rat]

Belgium joins the fight.

6 Belgian F-16s are presently conducting their first combat operations over Libya.

http://www.expatica.com/be/news/belgian-news/belgian-f-16s-conduct-first-libya-operation_137228.html

[Bilge_Rat]

and now the canadians.

4 CF-188s flew an escort mission over Libya today.

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20110321/800_CF18_jet_libya_dnd_110321.jpg


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110321/canadian-cf-18s-deployed-in-libya-110321/