Libyan No-Fly Zone res. passed by UN

[Bilge_Rat]

another video of French aircraft in action. Mirage 2000s this time:

http://www.leparisien.fr/diaporama-videos/index.php?sig=iLyROoafz7eP&source=home&pub=30028&rub=par:www:une

The French ministry of defence announced that French aircraft had carried out 55 sorties over libya, for a total of 400 hours since saturday.

Also the CV Charles De Gaulle will be in position to launch aircraft on tuesday.

http://www.leparisien.fr/intervention-lybie/en-direct-libye-les-avions-francais-ont-mene-55-missions-en-3-jours-21-03-2011-1369940.php

[Freiwillige]

The rebel alliance is advancing, Darth Vader is quoted during an interrogation of a captured rebel prisoner "Don't play games with me you weren't on any mercy mission, You are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor! Take her away!"

Imperial General Ghadaffi "If word of this spreads it will generate sympathy in the European Union." Vader~"Leave that to me, send a distress signal saying everybody in Libya has been killed." :har:

[Freiwillige]

So one article I read The Libyan provisional government (REBELS) says they support the ceasefire called by the UN and are not fighting daffy, the next article I read talks about the Rebels advancing and engaging Libyan military forces. Double speak by politicians isn't just a western ideal I guess.:hmmm:

[momo55]

Belgium joins the fight.

4 Belgian F-16s are presently conducting their first combat operations over Libya.

:yep: 6 Belgian F-16's operating from Araxos , Greece .
Furthermore participating is the minehunter M923 Narcis BNS (Tripartite-class).

Not bad for a little country (still) without a "elected" government :cool:

[Bilge_Rat]

So one article I read The Libyan provisional government (REBELS) says they support the ceasefire called by the UN and are not fighting daffy, the next article I read talks about the Rebels advancing and engaging Libyan military forces. Double speak by politicians isn't just a western ideal I guess.:hmmm:


The situation on the ground is confusing. Depending on reports, its either: 1) pro-Khadafi forces were pushed out of Misrata and Ajdabiah; or 2) fighting is still going on in Misrata and Ajdabiah.

One thing which does appear semi-clear is that pro-Khadafi forces were close to Benghazi on saturday, but retreated to Adjabiah following the air strikes. It appears the Rebels pursued them, but were rebuffed in their attempts to take Adjabiah.

[tater]

What do we know about the NTC? Isn;t the leader someone who defected from the current government? Strikes me it'll be the same thing with a different face when this is all over. Adding "Allied" airstrikes means we are responsible for whatever we get, if we're going to participate, I think we should have a say in what the final government looks like. If they will do what they will I am far less interested.

If you're gonna nation build, I think you need to stick around and nation build, otherwise what's the point? Spend millions (or billions) to make a government we won't be able to tell from the one that preceded it?

[Jimbuna]

The rebels don't have the equipment to take Gaddafi and his armour on, their best chance is the west destrying as much they can find from the ir and then hopefully more of the Gaddafi supporters might change sides.

Otherwise this looks like it could be a long drawn out affair.

[XabbaRus]

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=MLA

This is the live ATC feed for Malta on which you can hear coalition aircraft as they are transitting to and from the NFZ.

Some guys on keypublishing forums have picked up some interesting stuff.

[Tchocky]

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?ICAO=MLA (http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=MLA)



*twitch*

[Rockstar]

Rebels, what rebels? I would have thought the power of the people would have prevailed! Well wait a minute maybe it did, I mean of all the hype and hoopala about rebels and freedom and democracy. It seems to me it's just a relatively very few people supposedly holed up in Bengazi. To top it off NATO initiates a no-fly zone like Bush in Iraq upon the request of some unknown and obscure rebel's request on national news. Just where are the rebels? How many are there? What is their cause and intent?

Just curious as it appears, up until the bombing started, the vast majority of the country were just trying to get on about their business?

[Jimbuna]

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=MLA

This is the live ATC feed for Malta on which you can hear coalition aircraft as they are transitting to and from the NFZ.

Some guys on keypublishing forums have picked up some interesting stuff.

Yeah, there is a dedicated section on another forum elsewhere and the members are taking it in turns to type each and every transmission...they even know which air unit is which by their call signs.....quite impressive.

[Oberon]

Yeah, there is a dedicated section on another forum elsewhere and the members are taking it in turns to type each and every transmission...they even know which air unit is which by their call signs.....quite impressive.

Who needs GCHQ anymore? That'll be the next budget cut target. :doh:

[Tchocky]

*whistles The Lincolnshire Poacher*

[geetrue]

It was reported that Col Gaddafi has in the neighborhood of $30 billion dollars in his countries assets at his disposal.

What kind of war can you fight with that kind of money?

How can a dirty no good killing mad man do his dirty business of terrorism with that kind of money?

All he has to do is pick up the phone ...

Of course their is a story of old where they just threw the head pf the offending party over the wall to stop the intruders from killing ever one in the city.

This was the option in Romaina

[Reece]

Maybe the UN should post a $10 million reward for the proof of death or capture of Col Gaddafi, all of a sudden many eyes will be looking at him!:yep:

[Skybird]

Strike Eagle down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226

[Onkel Neal]

Its nice to see all the major European powers: UK, France, Italy, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Norway as well as Canada and the USA in a concerted, decisive effort....



Agreed. Too bad these people were not as decisive on Iraq. :cool:

[Tribesman]

Too bad these people were not as decisive on Iraq.
They were decisive on Iraq.
Its just that some of them then went against that descision and ended up involved in a mess in Mesopotania which ended up doing Irans work for them.

[Gargamel]

Strike Eagle down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226


Saw that.


Glad to see the pilots are ok.

[Oberon]

Strike Eagle down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226

At least it made it back over rebel lines. Probably ate a flaming onion which disagreed with it.

[Rockstar]

Wasn't this whole thing started on account of helping a vast population of rebels? I hear on the news we must support them! we must arm them! I've also heard there may be a need for ground troops to train them!

Look I'm not anti-war or anti- anything really. If the boss called me back I'd go. It's just that I am truly amazed how on account of three little words; freedom, democracy and rebels. People will blindly follow and support someone into a shooting war and not even look into who they are, why or what the potential results of their rebellion will cause. Nothing is known about them other than what they were told on the boob-tube. On such rebellion has opened the doors to the Gaza and shelling, and a very strong chance of an unfriendly Islamic fundamentalist government. All in the name of those three little words. As for Libya, I've looked, I've asked, maybe I'm missing something but if everyone is supporting rebels I got to ask, where are they?

Or has the reason changed now. Last night I heard from the talking heads it's now all about PanAm flight 103. Rebels what rebels they weren't even mentioned now we must just get Pagaffy at all costs!

[SubV]

:)http://funkyimg.com/u2/993/363/5549728216_451ea16476_b.jpg

[Bilge_Rat]

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=MLA

This is the live ATC feed for Malta on which you can hear coalition aircraft as they are transitting to and from the NFZ.

Some guys on keypublishing forums have picked up some interesting stuff.

I listened to it last night, fascinating stuff.

However I read that some guy in the Netherlands (as well as others) is using that and other links/info to post the real time position of coalition aircrafts on twitter. Obviously not the type of info you want to be public. :nope:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/secret-libya-psyops/

[Oberon]

*whistles*

I'm surprised that no-one has recruited this guy yet.


The F-15 that went down was one of USAF Lakenheaths birds according to our local news.

EDIT:

There was an EC-130H Compass Call aircraft, callsign Sheen 53, that was in theater so given their mission to "disrupt enemy command and control communications and limits adversary coordination essential for enemy force management," that may have been who Ary and others monitored last night.http://www.hollywoodactorprep.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/charlie-sheen-rehab.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

Seen on CNN: Coalition forces have hit a SS-C-2 missile site near the port of Tripoli. 3-4 SS-C-2 2 round mobile launchers destroyed along with a number of missiles.

Nice shooting guys. :salute:

[Oberon]

Good work, I have little doubt that Daffy would have thrown them at Benghazi before long.

The Dragon Lady is in the Med at FL600 at the moment.

And how about this for a patrol?

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg610/scaled.php?tn=0&server=610&filename=p7y7.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

:haha:

[Oberon]

Holland gets into operations with F-16s, tankers and a Minehunter, and Germany removes its four Med warships from NATO operations as it looks likely that NATO will take over control of Odyssey.

There is also a rumour of an air to air engagement between one of Daffys fighters and a coalition fighter. Unconfirmed.

[Molon Labe]

Seen on CNN: Coalition forces have hit a SS-C-2 missile site near the port of Tripoli. 3-4 SS-C-2 2 round mobile launchers destroyed along with a number of missiles.

Nice shooting guys. :salute:

Sorry to nitpick, but do you mean SSC-2 "Samlet" launchers or a twin SSC-3 launcher (which is the designation for the coastal version of the SS-N-2)? I know Libya has coastal Styx batteries...

[TLAM Strike]

Sorry to nitpick, but do you mean SSC-2 "Samlet" launchers or a twin SSC-3 launcher (which is the designation for the coastal version of the SS-N-2)? I know Libya has coastal Styx batteries...

D'oh thanks for catching that. Its the SSC-3 Styx missile not the Samlet. NATO hit the mobile launchers that are mounted on a big truck with a FCR, like I made for LWAMI.

[Jimbuna]

The F-15 that went down was one of USAF Lakenheaths birds according to our local news.




This is the plane that was lost:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/6/5/1120565.jpg

91-0304 F-15E-51-MC VI 1211/E169 492nd FS

[Skybird]

One can ask if economic sanctions against a regime make sense if the leader of that regime is siad to have put 30 billion Euros, 140 tons of gold aside.


But what pisses me big time again is that when NATO finally said that it wants to enforce a naval blockade against weapon deliveries via ship, the germ,an government - apparently in great haste - immediately announced that it gave orders that the two German frigates and two German fast attack boats currently operating in the Med as part of the the standing NATO naval force there, are to return and are no longer under NATO command.

Great going, my dear Mrs Merkel.


I think this - at the latest - was it with the Berliner bigmouths' dream of getting Germany a permanent seat in the security council. If this gremium serves the idealistic purpose that it claims for itself, can be argued - but assessing it by the idealistic claims, Germany indeed has no business in the SC indeed.


I would like to see the other NATO countries simply ignoring Germany in the coming years, and NATO not picking up the new offer of Germany to send AWACS personell to Afghanistan instead. Let Berlin feel how Germany is being perceived.

Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer, a Green, who once let Rumsfeld run against a wall over the Iraq war when telling him that Rumsfeld did not convince him, has stripped foreign ministre Guido Westerwave and the German govenment of all feathers. There is little that unites me with Fischer, but like he was right back then to confront the Americans, he again is right today when attacking and sinking the German government.


That the German government still speaks of unity and how very much it is supporting it's allied "friends" and how very much the other nations understand the Germans (once again...), is simply shabby, and a lie tailored to deceive the German people in the main.


I would wish the the next election(s) to explode into the face of the CDU, unfortunately, the alternative of the SPD, the Greens or Die Linke forming the next government, is not any better. Maybe they would do better regarding this single issue now - but onlöy at the cost of messing up many others.

[krashkart]

Good work, I have little doubt that Daffy would have thrown them at Benghazi before long.

The Dragon Lady is in the Med at FL600 at the moment.

And how about this for a patrol?

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg610/scaled.php?tn=0&server=610&filename=p7y7.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

:haha:


Guess the military didn't see this freeware unit tracking coming? :06:

[Alex]

Some of us got pretty tired of that constant Kadhafi **** at TV that the country TRULY has nothing do to with. I found this artwork on a French forum today. :D

http://www.weepic.com/out.php/t37409_pourquoi.jpg (http://www.weepic.com/out.php/i37409_pourquoi.jpg):har::har::har::har::har::har: :har::har:

Uh, wait, it may not be funny depending on where you're from. But well, I don't care.

Poor General (and ship) getting his name tarnished in that crap.

[Bilge_Rat]

The Arabs are coming!

Mirage 2000s from Qatar on their way to Crete to participate in the operation:

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/ap/cyprus%20qatar%20planes%20libya-369046885_v2.grid-6x2.jpg

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42209504/ns/world_news-europe

[Oberon]

Guess the military didn't see this freeware unit tracking coming? :06:

You'd be surprised. The freeware unit tracking doesn't work with most military jets, and the B-2s are using Tanker unit callsigns to disguise their movements from people listening into the ATC.

The guys who are monitoring the ATC are actually in some cases helping the Americans, for example this:

Noteworthy, one of the radar-suppression fighters involved in a mission over Libya was the protagonist of an episode that tell us much about the technologies available today to track the aircraft involved in Odyssey Dawn: with simple and cheap tools, the famous Dutch radio communication expert known under the Twitter username @FMCNL, the one who made available to everyone on the Internet the audio file of the Psyops message broadcasted by a US EC-130J (see Day 2 debrief (http://cencio4.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/operation-odyssey-dawn-explained-day-2/) for more info), warned US Africom Command that in the morning of Mar. 21 an F-16CJ was broadcasting its identity in the clear by means of its Mode-S transponder.

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/husky-01.png?w=358&h=173 (http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/husky-01.png)

Most probably not only Gaddafi’s forces were not using ADS-B receivers to track coalition aircraft and would not do much with that information since there are many other more and less sophisticated ways to know that a Wild Weasel is flying (for example, just watch TV reports showing aircraft departing from their bases….), but the episode demonstrates once more what can be done with off-the-shelf products and a bit of knowledge, as well as that skilled enthusiasts following air operations can help the coalition to improve self-protection and safety of some of its High Value assets. By the way, the F-16 was not the only aircraft to broadcast information: on Flightradar24.com, the Canadian CC-150 (A310) was irregularly trackable transmitting full ADS-B info.:up:

[krashkart]

You'd be surprised. The freeware unit tracking doesn't work with most military jets, and the B-2s are using Tanker unit callsigns to disguise their movements from people listening into the ATC.

The guys who are monitoring the ATC are actually in some cases helping the Americans, for example this:

:up:

Duly noted. :DL

[TLAM Strike]

Photos of the SSM site at Boussetta 6 miles from Tripoli:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7849/800xf.jpg
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6118/800xv.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1059/800xbi.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2226/800xe.jpg


And words can't begin to describe how awesome this guy is...
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4772/800xzu.jpg
He has a brass flare gun, a fez, a brown coat, handcuffs, a grenade, and some kind of rifle with a bayonet.

[tater]

That looks like a "modern" bayonet, so probably an AK (the likely older weapons are probably bolt action rifles, or maybe Hakims—but I think the hakim has a mauser or enfield-like bayonet only shorter).

[Molon Labe]

Where do you get these awesome photos?

[TLAM Strike]

Where do you get these awesome photos?

http://militaryphotos.net/
the best intelligence site on the net! :haha:

[Gargamel]

http://militaryphotos.net/
the best intelligence site on the net! :haha:


Yes... very cool site...

http://i52.tinypic.com/ji2flj.jpg

[Freiwillige]

Who are the rebels?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110322/ts_yblog_theenvoy/who-are-the-libyan-rebels-u-s-tries-to-figure-out

The part I like the best is where they admit they tell the rebels what to say so as to sell themselves to the west.:woot:

[SubV]

TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Foreign forces leading an assault against his government will lose and end up in the dustbin of history, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi said on Tuesday as he vowed to continue fighting. "We will not surrender ... We will defeat them by any means," Gaddafi said in brief remarks in the capital Tripoli broadcast live on television. "We are ready for the fight, whether it will be a short or a long one."
"We will be victorious in the end."
Foreign reporters in Tripoli were told the Libyan leader spoke at his Tripoli compound and was addressing supporters forming a human shield to protect him.
"I am staying here, my home is here, I am staying in my tent," he told his supporters who waved green flags. "I am here, I am here, I am here."
The speech was followed by fireworks in the Libyan capital. Crowds could be heard cheering and shooting into the air in the city center.
"There are demonstrations everywhere against this unjustified assault, which breaches the United Nations' charter," Gaddafi said of the international attacks. "This assault ... is by a bunch of fascists who will end up in the dustbin of history."http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110322/wl_nm/us_libya_gaddafi_speech
BERLIN - Germany is withdrawing ships and air crews in the Mediterranean Sea from various long-running NATO operations following the military alliance's decision to enforce a U.N. arms embargo on Libya. Berlin isn't participating in the operation to impose a no-fly zone in Libya and abstained on the U.N. resolution authorizing it.
Because of the risk of getting drawn in, the Defence Ministry said Tuesday Germany was putting two ships and two smaller boats with a total of some 550 sailors in the Mediterranean back under national command.
It also is pulling out between 60 and 70 German airmen from NATO AWACS surveillance aircraft involved in Operation Active Endeavor, in which the alliance monitors and escorts shipping across the Mediterranean to deter terrorist activity.http://ca.news.yahoo.com/germany-withdraws-mediterranean-assets-nato-command-alliance-takes-20110322-144253-183.html

I guess the Germans don't want to be accused in fascism this time...

[Jimbuna]

One can ask if economic sanctions against a regime make sense if the leader of that regime is siad to have put 30 billion Euros, 140 tons of gold aside.


But what pisses me big time again is that when NATO finally said that it wants to enforce a naval blockade against weapon deliveries via ship, the germ,an government - apparently in great haste - immediately announced that it gave orders that the two German frigates and two German fast attack boats currently operating in the Med as part of the the standing NATO naval force there, are to return and are no longer under NATO command.

Great going, my dear Mrs Merkel.


I think this - at the latest - was it with the Berliner bigmouths' dream of getting Germany a permanent seat in the security council. If this gremium serves the idealistic purpose that it claims for itself, can be argued - but assessing it by the idealistic claims, Germany indeed has no business in the SC indeed.


I would like to see the other NATO countries simply ignoring Germany in the coming years, and NATO not picking up the new offer of Germany to send AWACS personell to Afghanistan instead. Let Berlin feel how Germany is being perceived.

Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer, a Green, who once let Rumsfeld run against a wall over the Iraq war when telling him that Rumsfeld did not convince him, has stripped foreign ministre Guido Westerwave and the German govenment of all feathers. There is little that unites me with Fischer, but like he was right back then to confront the Americans, he again is right today when attacking and sinking the German government.


That the German government still speaks of unity and how very much it is supporting it's allied "friends" and how very much the other nations understand the Germans (once again...), is simply shabby, and a lie tailored to deceive the German people in the main.


I would wish the the next election(s) to explode into the face of the CDU, unfortunately, the alternative of the SPD, the Greens or Die Linke forming the next government, is not any better. Maybe they would do better regarding this single issue now - but onlöy at the cost of messing up many others.

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.

[Skybird]

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.
That must be the world-famous British tendency for polite understatement. :up:

[Freiwillige]

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.:smug:

[Skybird]

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.:smug:
Germany did not follow the madness in 2003, and right it was. It allowed to get needlessly pulled into the Afghan swamp, however. But in 2011, I think it should have been one of the forerunners amongst Europeans to lead a more aggressive policy against Lybia, and much earlier then just one week ago, because it is in our best European interest that the rebels remain a chance to kill the Gaddafi regime and -clan. I again refer to the activities of Gazproim in Lybia, and it'S attempt to eliminate the European effort to become less depending on Russian gas via Eastern pipelines. (This is also the main reason why Putin is so upset about the airstrikes, he sees his Gazprom strategy - to freeze Europe in a potentially vulnerable and depending position that leaves it prone to blackmailing - in danger).

Both situations do not compare. But still they have something in common.

Schroeder back then, maybe different from Fischer, acted on behalf of calulations aimed at the appreciation by the wide public; Schroeder - different to Fischer - has not had any idealistic reasoning, he was and is the born opportunist.

Merkel today also aimed at the wide German public's opinion. But she probabaly miscalculated it - a majority on the street, in parliament, amongst parties, and maybe even inside her own coalition and party, is against this German policy.

Westerwelle takes nothing but fire over his incompetence over here. He is easily the biggest disaster of a foreign minister Germany has ever had, not just because of this story now, but a long display of naivety and incompetence and bigmouthed attitude nevertheless. He simply does not know his stuff, and has zero linkage to the realities in his ressort.

[Bilge_Rat]

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.:smug:

It's very easy to fall back on the 19th century notion that one State should not interfere in the internal affairs of another to justify doing nothing and letting Khadafi massacre his own people.

But in the 21st century, where everyone is wired in to everyone else on earth and we all know in real time what is happening, you can't on the one hand encourage democratic reforms and aspirations and on the other, just stand by on the sidelines when the whole thing goes south and say "well, it's really none of our business" or "well, the replacement will probably be worse".

We have had many situations in the past, Irak 1991, Rwanda, Bosnia, Ethiopia, Sudan, where long afterwards, people have said that they should have done something.

Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.

Khadafi has got to go!

We'll worry about the replacement when he's gone. :ping:

[Slyguy3129]

Germany did not follow the madness in 2003

Madness is only a point of view, many, many people saw it as necessary. And that is all I will say about that.

Considered that the world famous Texan habit of biting down hard on ones tongue.

[Freiwillige]

It's very easy to fall back on the 19th century notion that one State should not interfere in the internal affairs of another to justify doing nothing and letting Khadafi massacre his own people.

But in the 21st century, where everyone is wired in to everyone else on earth and we all know in real time what is happening, you can't on the one hand encourage democratic reforms and aspirations and on the other, just stand by on the sidelines when the whole thing goes south and say "well, it's really none of our business" or "well, the replacement will probably be worse".

We have had many situations in the past, Irak 1991, Rwanda, Bosnia, Ethiopia, Sudan, where long afterwards, people have said that they should have done something.

Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.

Khadafi has got to go!

We'll worry about the replacement when he's gone. :ping:

The problem I have with this whole ordeal is it is not based on fact but on pure speculation and conjecture. Proof of mass slayings has not surfaced, In fact the opposite has. People are dying in this civil war but massive civilian targeting is not. I have followed this thing quite closely and it appears that the majority of death's are Rebels who are armed and in a civil war or Ghadaffi's forces. Everything else reaks of propaganda. And the same arguments for this conflict sound familiar to arguments for our recent conflicts.

Now if they actually showed proof of execution squads etc I might be more apt to agree with the current direction but the Facts point out differently, Ghadaffi's forces have actually shown great restraint even before our attack surounding cities and attacking rebel positions instead of indescrimanatly marching over the civilian population. I haven't even seen evidance that his air force attacked and bombed anybody but rebel positions.

There are people loyal to both sides and causes and that is what makes it a civil war and an insurrection. It isn't ghadaffi vs the people of Libya its half of Libya vs the other half.

[Schroeder]

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.
Annoyed? Actually it's nothing short of embarrassing.:dead:

[Platapus]

\
Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.


And how many people do you think the rebels will kill if they get into power?

[Bilge_Rat]

And how many people do you think the rebels will kill if they get into power?

Less, the same or more than Khadafi. No one can predict the future.

However, we do have a pretty good idea of how many Khadafi will kill. :yep:

[joegrundman]

Less, the same or more than Khadafi. No one can predict the future.

However, we do have a pretty good idea of how many Khadafi will kill. :yep:
and how many is that?

[Tribesman]

and how many is that?
Less, the same or more than the rebels. No one can predict the future.....
unless of course you cover all bases which isn't a prediction at all. :up:
Or if you think you have covered all bases like Rummy with his WMDs east north south and west of Bahgdad but were just making it all up.

[krashkart]

and how many is that?

Less, the same or more than the rebels. No one can predict the future.....
unless of course you cover all bases which isn't a prediction at all. :up:
Or if you think you have covered all bases like Rummy with his WMDs east north south and west of Bahgdad but were just making it all up.


I'll give it a shot:

The number will be somewhere between 1 and "fukifiknow". :yep:

[Tribesman]

"fukifiknow"
is that a small fishing village in Asia?

[krashkart]

is that a small fishing village in Asia?

:yep:

[Bilge_Rat]

Apparently a french fighter shot down a Libyan plane identified as a Soko G-2 Galeb, that entered the no-fly zone over Misratah.

no confirmation yet.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2011/03/24/97001-20110324FILWWW00567-la-france-abat-un-avion-libyen-abc.php

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-No-Fly-Zone-French-Fighter-Jets-Shoot-Down-Gaddafi-Forces-Warplane-Near-Misratah/Article/201103415959453?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header _3&lid=ARTICLE_15959453_Libya%2C_No-Fly_Zone%3A_French_Fighter_Jets_Shoot_Down_Gaddafi _Forces_Warplane_Near_Misratah

[MH]

I wonder if UN will succeed in installing Mubarak style regime in Libya.

It seems that many Arabs think that Da Man will screw UN over somehow.
They don't share UN enthusiasm for freedom and liberty and claim that UN did very dumb thing.
Go figure.....

[Slyguy3129]

Ok I pose a question to all you na-sayers. What should be done?

I can't help but think the only reason y'all are complaining is because we are involved.

[MH]

Ok I pose a question to all you na-sayers. What should be done?

I can't help but think the only reason y'all are complaining is because we are involved.

I'm not complaining i wish all the parties involved the best outcome possible.
Its just funny to see people blaming US for installing regimes in ME and then backing involvement in Libya while Arab street claiming that UN is dumb and the man should stay.

[Bilge_Rat]

I'm not complaining i wish all the parties involved the best outcome possible.
Its just funny to see people blaming US for installing regimes in ME and then backing involvement in Libya while Arab street claiming that UN is dumb and the man should stay.


thats not clear MH. Its hard to know where the Arab Street stands on this one since opinions appear to be all over the place.

[MH]

thats not clear MH. Its hard to know where the Arab Street stands on this one since opinions appear to be all over the place.

You are right.
I was talking to few Israeli Palestinians and their point of view was that UN and and US is driving ME toward radicalism.
Not backing Mubarak and Qaddafi was a big mistake they say.
The guys are sort of Muslims that go to Mecca once in while.

[Freiwillige]

Ok I pose a question to all you na-sayers. What should be done?

I can't help but think the only reason y'all are complaining is because we are involved.

We should have done nothing. And yes I am complaining because we are involved when we should have never gotten involved. See Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan for reasons.

Like I said earlier, this massive civilian death toll even before our intervention was nominal at most, Saddam killed more in his sleep. I disbelieve that the civilians are getting slaughtered wholesale because there is zero credible evidence to show that they are.

More people die daily in Mexico than whats reported there. The majority of deaths in Libya appear to be willing combatants. I have no issue with that.

Then there is the argument that he will kill lots of people if we don't stop him. Conjecture and Speculation again backed by hearsay.

When it came out that western intervention forces were telling the Libyan Rebels what to say to sell their cause to the west it lost all validity in my eye's. We aren't hearing what the rebels really want were hearing what our leaders are putting in there mouths. A good indication is when they are holding sympathetic signs in English for photo ops with western media, You know darn well that these large groups holding signs don't speak English! Somebody guided them to sell there cause! Hmmm wonder who that could be:hmmm:

The truth will always come out and this issue has so much spin on it that its hard to see through the dazzle.

If you cant razzle dazzle em, then blind em with bull****!

[Slyguy3129]

Fair enough, but the guy needs to go and that's final.

As for the US driving Muslims radical? You got to be kidding me, those nuts fell from the tree long before the US was even born.

[krashkart]

As for the US driving Muslims radical? You got to be kidding me, those nuts fell from the tree long before the US was even born.

I heard or read or watched on TV that the radicalism began taking shape in the 50's when a really depressed man wrote a depressing book about his dim, depressing view of western culture. Other really depressed men read the book and agreed that they also didn't like what western culture represented, and especially what it could do to their own culture were it to take hold in their lands.

So it sounds to me like a bunch of really depressed people felt that it would be a great idea to get together and spread the depressing word of that one really depressed man to other hopeless, depressed men. And together they would vent their angst against the West, at first through harsh language, and now with suicide bombers.

Pretty depressing, huh? :woot:

[TLAM Strike]

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-accomplishments-of-the-un-no-fly-zone.html

interesting part:
7. The no-fly zone allowed an aid ship to land at Misrata with medicines. Misrata is suffering from a lack of water, electricity and services, not to mention medicine!I guess that is why the NATO forces hit that Silkworm site. Misrata was within range or close to it.

Oh and it looks like we got the first A/A kill of the war. A French Navy jet shot down a Libyan Galeb:
http://defensetech.org/2011/03/24/french-navy-1-libya-0/

[Oberon]

Oh and it looks like we got the first A/A kill of the war. A French Navy jet shot down a Libyan Galeb:
http://defensetech.org/2011/03/24/french-navy-1-libya-0/

Alas, no, the Galeb was on the ground and the French jet smacked it with an A/G missile.

Quite what a trainer aircraft was doing landing at Misrata...will probably never be known.

[TLAM Strike]

Alas, no, the Galeb was on the ground and the French jet smacked it with an A/G missile.

Quite what a trainer aircraft was doing landing at Misrata...will probably never be known. Maybe acting as a FAC for arty or providing CAS (the Galeb can carry some stores). :hmmm:

[Bilge_Rat]

The Galeb can double as a light strike aircraft. They were used by Serbia in that role in the late 90s.

[Slyguy3129]

Hmmm never heard of that krash but your right. That's awfully depressing, here I thought you were supposed to spread the joy.

[Penguin]

You are right.
I was talking to few Israeli Palestinians and their point of view was that UN and and US is driving ME toward radicalism.
Not backing Mubarak and Qaddafi was a big mistake they say.
The guys are sort of Muslims that go to Mecca once in while.

They are driving YOU into radicalism? ;)

On a serious note: I think they are arguing from a priviledged position, as they enjoy the right to vote freely. You cannot deny freedoms which you enjoy by yourself towards others who don't have them. We'll have to see how this whole thing turns out. I hope they don't **** it up and vote for the wrong arseholes, like the people in Gaza.

The biggest danger I see at the moment is the economic situation in the ME: Masses of young, unemployed people and not really a light on the horizon.
This was one of the factors which fueled radicalization in the 30s in Germany...

Thanks for giving us some insight into some arab opinions.
I have a collegue who just came from the kurdish part of Iraq. They had their protests there too, against the Kurdish provincial government. The protests were mostly about the economic situation. The picture on the street is mixed, many people who look very "western", but also people who dress like fundamentalists...

Would really love to get some impressions from Castout, how the whole Libya thing is seen "on the street" in Indonesia.