Hard question for SH3 mod community [Archive]

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 08:49 AM

Ok so I have a rather difficult and probubly touchy question for you die hard sh3 fans. And the question is as follows, why are some so diametrically opposed to working on the ATO for SH4?

Now that GWX is disbanded and Lurker no longer around to work on OM (or likey give permisson to continue work) there is very little hope for the ATO in SH4.

Now I have SH3 and when it was out I loved it. I remember the flaws and the time it took before SH3 was a great game. SH4 is identically in those same aspects. After the release of UBoat missions it opened up the possibility that no other Silent Hunter game has. More than one nationality and campaign. Therefore giving SH4 more potential than any other.

Silent Hunter 4 needs hard core dedicated ATO players and modders such as the likes here in this forum. Yet you guys stick to your guns on just SH3. It begs the question why? Why is it when it is possible to do so much more in SH4's ATO do you guys stay in the past? With the knowledge and experience you guys have it would make ATO mods simpler and more accurate. And again with the lack of OM and GWX it suffers greatly without you.

To be fair I will list the reason why I won't go back to SH3. One of the first and formost reasons (and something I greatly disliked even when I loved SH3) was the babysitting of the crew.IE I had to move them to rest, I had to tell them to go to bed. Sh4 solved that problem. Another is the lack of TC performance. I dont really know what other that game engine limitations caused the game not to have higher TC but again this is something Sh4 fixed almost on necessity as the main game was based in the largest ocean on our planet. And I guess that is really the main thing there the engine used in Sh3 was in it's infancy and matured with SH4.

Now under no circumstances is this thread meant to be which game is better. Everyone has an opinion and they all stink end of story. And frankly filling this thread with that nonsense just means you didn't read my post at all. I am simply looking for the answer that has been burning in my mind for years now as I watched SH4's ATO mature at a painfully slow pace. Again this is not designed to step on any toes or to instigate a better flame war. Just an honest to God out of sheer amazement and curiosity why?

TheDarkWraith

03-17-11, 10:06 AM

First of all, to each their own. Everyone likes the game they play for any and all particular reasons. Now to add to your living in the past statement, why are you even bothering with SH3 (or SH4 for that matter)? SH5 is the future! :rock:
The engines in SH3/4 are things of the past, relics. Yes you can add specular maps to make things appear more real life but deep down the engine is outdated by todays standards. There is no other way around that fact :DL

Sailor Steve

03-17-11, 10:31 AM

While I feel exactly the same way, and wish SH4 had the great mods that the years have given SH3, I have to be confused about your way of asking.

First you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of living in the past, then you say you're not looking for a flame war. You say you don't want to argue about which game is better, then explain why SH4 is better.

It sounds to me like you want everyone to agree with you, and refuse to accept any disagreement as "nonsense".

As I said, I feel pretty much the same way, but your wording could have been a whole lot better.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 10:46 AM

Thanks for coming into my thread where I asked a legitimate heart felt question with a plea and derailing it because of one statement. I should also thank you for reading my post. It only took one simple post for the "this game is better than that game" flame war to start, which I clearly stated I did not want to happen, and you couldn't do it.

Now if I can steer my thread back on topic from the hijack, the question is why don't the modders here not throw in with the SH4 ATO modders. I was looking for detailed answers.

While I feel exactly the same way, and wish SH4 had the great mods that the years have given SH3, I have to be confused about your way of asking.

First you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of living in the past, then you say you're not looking for a flame war. You say you don't want to argue about which game is better, then explain why SH4 is better.

It sounds to me like you want everyone to agree with you, and refuse to accept any disagreement as "nonsense".

As I said, I feel pretty much the same way, but your wording could have been a whole lot better.

As I re-read my post I do not see "Living in the Past", I said: "Why is it when it is possible to do so much more in SH4's ATO do you guys stay in the past?" How else could I have said it? Old game? Relic? A game that came out years ago? I'm not meaning to be "smart" I'm just upset that my thread with a legitimate question took one post to be derailed. I'm not sure where accused is coming from? I have re-read my post and re-read it 5 to 6 times before I posted it making sure that everything I said was as neutral as possible as to avoid start this here problem. I never said anything about being better and others being wrong. I never accused anything. The two engines are identical in nature (3/4) obviously since 4 is well 4 the engine itself has evolved. Then I gave examples of this. How can asking for others opinions be accusing others opinions?

TheDarkWraith

03-17-11, 10:55 AM

I was not trying to start a flame war or a this game is better than that game saga. You asked why modders weren't pitching in to help with something and as a modder I told you my opinion.
I will not work on something that is outdated (SH3/4) when I have something that is new and offers more (SH5).
You obviously haven't visited the SH5 Mods forum lately. SH5 now is completely different than what it was before. But it appears you live in the past like most others and are resistant to change. There is nothing wrong with that, that is how you choose to live :salute:
If you didn't want modders opinions you shouldn't have asked :timeout:

brett25

03-17-11, 11:12 AM

why are you even bothering with SH3 (or SH4 for that matter)? SH5 is the future! Here we go again:woot:When you say things like this is it no wonder you will start a flame war? Yeah SH5 would be the future if there was any hope of making it more than pretty looking. I tried SH5 and I investigated every mod for that game. Most of the mods are cosmetic and graphics in nature, but even with the more hardcore tweaks, I found the game still unplayable, and don't feel those aspects of the game will ever be fixable. The loads of UI tweaks do nothing to alter the gameplay. I commend you DW on your efforts-you have done some nice work with AI tweaks, but I cant stand play this game for more than a few minutes.

Herr-Berbunch

03-17-11, 11:13 AM

To be fair I will list the reason why I won't go back to SH3. One of the first and formost reasons (and something I greatly disliked even when I loved SH3) was the babysitting of the crew.IE I had to move them to rest, I had to tell them to go to bed. Sh4 solved that problem. Another is the lack of TC performance.

I'd like to enter this by saying I've read your thread, and I'm not a modder, but...

If you loved SH3, then try it with SH3 Commander, it addresses your need not to babysit the crew, and can adjust the TC to suit.

Modders, like the people who play the games, just like one more than the other, some like 3, some 4, some 5, hell - some even still play the original and 2. Some modders don't even play! Me, playing, I like 3, despise 4, kinda like 5 but haven't really given it much of a bash yet - that doesn't make me wrong or have I 'stayed in the past' (I'll come back to that in a minute). I don't have the answer to why 4 never picked up as many modders, maybe it did, maybe it's just because 3's been around longer? Who knows?

Right, back to 'the past', Steve - who can more than fight his own corner, but whilst I'm here - never quoted you regarding 'living in the past', he merely commented that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of living in the past. Which by my reckoning, 'Why is it when it is possible to do so much more in SH4's ATO do you guys stay in the past?', is the same thing.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 11:29 AM

Wraith had it not been for your love of SH5 we might not have the Damage by Fire mod that you have which is awesome. But I think we truly have your unique outlook on how to solve the problem to thank.

The reason I snapped is because I never brought up SH5 I was asking about 4. It was just irritating that the first response to my post was throwing Silent Hunter 5 at me when it had nothing to do with my post. Had it been like the 3 or 4 or 5 post, I probubly would not have cared. I expected it to happen eventually, I just hoped I would get a few answers before it did. 4 had been out for years and while I don't mind work continuing on 3, it was just disappointing to see that some of the great minds that lead to the only reason why SH3 (or any Silent Hunter) was great stayed behind even after SH4's ATO started. I can't help but feel that it suffered because of it.

I point to a thread that I only saw after I posted, SH3/SH5 The Perfect Uboat Simulation. That's fine, but what about SH4's ATO? Why are people so diametrically opposed to working on ATO's for SH4? That is all I wanted to know. They act like there isn't a Uboat campaign in SH4.

I just look at all the awesome mods that are still coming out for SH3 and hang my head because all of those mods could have been coming out for SH4 and improving its ATO. I was just looking for a bit more of a reason than "because we choose to", I gave reasons as to why I went to SH4. I was wondering what SH3 had to offer that SH4 doesn't or wouldn't. Sh4 would have everything that SH3 has, had it had the same dedicated community to the ATO as the GWX. But before GWX even got started in SH4 it disbanded, which was probably the single worst news in the SH4 modding community. I feel that it killed all hope for a true comprehensive mod for the ATO. It is my opinion that because there is not a GWX platform for SH4 that people don't want to bother with it. I think that is the main and only reason why. But there could be (not by name of course under a different one, perhaps Operation Monsum or another name). And frankly it sucks that it won't ever happen because of it.

Bakkels

03-17-11, 11:32 AM

I will not work on something that is outdated (SH3/4) when I have something that is new and offers more (SH5).

:timeout: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=180921

There's no shame in admitting that you're still working on sh3 DarkWraith :O: j/k I know you originally made it for sh5. Grateful that you made it compatible with sh3 though.

OT; I'm not sure why modders put more energy in sh3 than sh4. Maybe because (just a guess) sh4 wasn't the big step forward everybody thought it would be. This is not my opinion; I haven't played sh4 (yet). So I really can't compare the two, but ironically, there are so much great sh3 mods that I really don't feel the need to play sh4.

Also it could be that people just felt more of a connection with sh3 because it is relatively mod-friendly, and has been around for so long. Kinda like an old car you don't want to give up on because you already completely tweaked and customized it to your own taste :DL.
And I've got to agree with DarkWraith; isn't modding for sh4 just as much 'staying in the past'? I mean, sh5 is here now.

But this is all speculation on my part because I'm no modder. I'm curious to the answer from some more modders to your original question though.

Sailor Steve

03-17-11, 11:47 AM

Thanks for coming into my thread where I asked a legitimate heart felt question with a plea and derailing it because of one statement. I should also thank you for reading my post. It only took one simple post for the "this game is better than that game" flame war to start, which I clearly stated I did not want to happen, and you couldn't do it.
No, I pointed out that you started your flame war at the very beginning. Did you miss the part where I said I agree with you about SH4?

"Living in the Past"
"stay in the past?"
Do you really see a difference?

How else could I have said it? Old game? Relic? A game that came out years ago?
You could have left out that part altogether. All I'm saying is that you issued a challenge, then demanded that no one answer it. I answered it anyway.

As to your original question, I'll say for the third time that I agree. I've said many (and I mean very many, as in years' worth) times in the past that SH4 really is the better platform. See, I actually did compare the two, and there is no question that SH4 deserves better treatment than it has recieved. It is SH3 improved, and would greatly benefit from all the cool mods that have been made for SH3. I have a long list of things I'd like to see in SH4, and little hope that it will ever happen.

Why do dedicated SH3 modders not do SH4? That's a good question, and one I don't have an answer for. I've spent years researching merchant ship names for SH3 Commander, and I could apply it to SH4 in a much more detailed fashion. JScones doesn't want to do an SH4 version of Commander, and so far no one else has risen to the challenge. I have no clue how to do that kind of programming (or any kind, for that matter) so I'm stuck with SH3.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 11:49 AM

I'd like to enter this by saying I've read your thread, and I'm not a modder, but...

If you loved SH3, then try it with SH3 Commander, it addresses your need not to babysit the crew, and can adjust the TC to suit.

Modders, like the people who play the games, just like one more than the other, some like 3, some 4, some 5, hell - some even still play the original and 2. Some modders don't even play! Me, playing, I like 3, despise 4, kinda like 5 but haven't really given it much of a bash yet - that doesn't make me wrong or have I 'stayed in the past' (I'll come back to that in a minute). I don't have the answer to why 4 never picked up as many modders, maybe it did, maybe it's just because 3's been around longer? Who knows?

Right, back to 'the past', Steve - who can more than fight his own corner, but whilst I'm here - never quoted you regarding 'living in the past', he merely commented that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of living in the past. Which by my reckoning, 'Why is it when it is possible to do so much more in SH4's ATO do you guys stay in the past?', is the same thing.

Because I have played SH3 commander. I played SH3 to death until Sh4 was finally playable and decent Supermods came out for it (RFB/TMO/OM and many others). And the crew management still needs to be manual, not automated ala Silent 4 (not saying its better just saying its automated. My ship won't stop moving because the crew hasn't rotated out by themselves). In Silent Hunter 3 I was never able to reach 4096x which I can easily and more so in Silent Hunter 4. Not saying its better but for some reason my machine won't allow it in SH3.

But again you didn't give me reason as to why you despise SH4. That's fine hate it all you want, but why? Because there isn't a GWX? Give a reason as to why you despise it, like I did for the reasons I don't play SH3 any longer.

Ok fine to stop this argument which is again specifically in my post as to what I did not want to happen fine, I accused everyone. Nothing in my original post accuses anything. As I stated before I read it a good number of times to make sure I didn't do anything to instigate this. I am not wanting a thread fight, I just wanted answers. But fine, fine, I was wrong in ever suggesting that Sh3 is an old game. That is all I was getting at, it was older than SH4. That was it, no accusing, no right or wrong, just a statement that after 6 proofreads seemed like a fairly obvious why of saying that Sh3 is an old game. Before it even starts up so is Silent Hunter 4. If I sound a bit hot, it is because I don't like having words put in my mouth.

But please for the love of Davy Jones' locker lets get back on topic. Again Herr-Berbunch what is it that you despise about SH4. This is exactly what I meant by diametrically opposed. Not saying your right or wrong, just out of sheer curiosity.

Jesus I'm afraid this discussion is going to be more rabid than politics.:D

Do you really see a difference.

EDIT: SS that wasn't directed at you. Yes I do see a difference, I know what I said and I know what I meant, accusation was not part of it.

Perhaps this thread should be nipped in the bud and locked. A few post in and all we are doing is arguing.

EDIT:2 Ah getting some more post while I proof read my post to make sure I think of ever interpretation possible to avoid getting keel-hauled :D (joke)

OT; I'm not sure why modders put more energy in sh3 than sh4. Maybe because (just a guess) sh4 wasn't the big step forward everybody thought it would be. This is not my opinion; I haven't played sh4 (yet). So I really can't compare the two, but ironically, there are so much great sh3 mods that I really don't feel the need to play sh4.

Also it could be that people just felt more of a connection with sh3 because it is relatively mod-friendly, and has been around for so long. Kinda like an old car you don't want to give up on because you already completely tweaked and customized it to your own taste :DL.
And I've got to agree with DarkWraith; isn't modding for sh4 just as much 'staying in the past'? I mean, sh5 is here now.

But this is all speculation on my part because I'm no modder. I'm curious to the answer from some more modders to your original question though.

Ok now I can see that. I wasn't aware that SH3 was more mod friendly than SH4. Did the devs put something into effect that prevented or made modding more difficult in SH4? I suppose if anything that would be the reason why.

frau kaleun

03-17-11, 11:50 AM

It is my opinion that because there is not a GWX platform for SH4 that people don't want to bother with it.

There is also no Commander for SH4, which is a big selling point in favor of SH3 for some people.

But I think you're going to find that the argument goes in an endless circle... why don't more modders work on SH4? Well, maybe it's because there isn't as much interest because a lot of them (and non-modders as well) prefer playing SH3.

Why do they prefer playing SH3? Because of all the great mods and add-ons it has that SH4 doesn't.

Well, why doesn't SH4 have them? Because the modders don't make them.

And then you're back to question #1.

Plus I think it's unhelpful to put it in terms of "why are people diametrically opposed" to modding SH4. Just because somebody doesn't do something, doesn't mean they're opposed to seeing it get done. And it's not a matter of "but they SHOULD be modding SH4!" Nobody *should* be modding anything, it's not an obligation and it's not a paid gig, lol.

Modders mod what they want to mod, for their own reasons, the end, the reasons don't have to make sense to anyone else, nor does the argument "but SH4 is better because of XYZ" hold any water. Just because it's a "better" game in one person's opinion for those reasons doesn't mean that holds true for everyone. Two of the reasons you mentioned, crew management and TC, have already been resolved in SH3 to most people's satisfaction just by the addition of Commander.

Bakkels

03-17-11, 12:05 PM

Frau Kaleun; that circle argument was exactly what I was thinking! I just couldn't put into words as you did. But I think that's basically what this comes down to. Well said!

Herr-Berbunch

03-17-11, 12:05 PM

My reasons? Hard to remember now off hand, and I'll probably be faced with the usual - but this mod does that! - the water colour of the Atlantic being as blue as the Pacific, the UI, the dials - the U-boat add on did nothing for me other than make me wonder why I wasn't playing SH3. Even the graphics I found to be only slightly better than 3. And yes, I did have some popular mods. So, it's just not my bag, I gave it a go, and I may return to it one day, but not today.

I think your original post would've been better received if you'd just asked why people didn't mod 4 as much as 3, with no heavy-bias towards 4. :yep:

...more rabid than politics - right, let's get started on politics, oooh - and then religion! :rotfl2:

TheDarkWraith

03-17-11, 12:14 PM

I'll tell you why I never even considered SH4. SH4 was hyped to be the greatest thing since sliced bread when it was being marketed. I bought it sight unseen (pre-order and what a sucker I was!). Once installed and fired up for the first time I can remember me saying what the ??? The stadimeter was some god awful thing, the interface was total crap, the game as a whole was utter crap. 10 minutes later it found it's place in my home - collecting dust on the shelf. It has never been played since that first time. First impressions can never be changed and my first impression of SH4 was awful. Nothing anyone can do to change my opinion of SH4 now.
SH5 was a breath of fresh air. The devs included tools to make it easy to mod. They also made it scriptable - which means you can extend the game!! Now I'm including my own .dlls into the game and breaking new frontiers by patching the .exe. Sorry, SH5 does it for me.
SH3 is just old. I wouldn't waste another person's time on it.

frau kaleun

03-17-11, 12:14 PM

...more rabid than politics - right, let's get started on politics, oooh - and then religion! :rotfl2:

But but but but.... SH3 *is* my religion! :O:

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 12:15 PM

I meant diametrically because that is exactly how it seems.

I know what my join date says, but I have been around since SH3 was being worked on. When Sh4 came out there were tons of threads all of which got locked because of this very question. Ok not this exact question but you get my point.

Ack not the circular logic argument! I can see a demotivational poster now

......Your logic is circular

Your argument has been rendered invalid.

In fairness though I was posing a thought. Which appears to have been true, atleast that is what I understad from your post. The reason why people in SH3 aren't into SH4 is because there isn't a GWX or Commander as you added, therefore there is no interest in it.

As far as that line of thinking goes, its a good thing that was never applied to SH3, or the game would still be like it was without any of the awesome mods. Then we wouldn't have a 4 or 5.

I'll tell you why I never even considered SH4. SH4 was hyped to be the greatest thing since sliced bread when it was being marketed. I bought it sight unseen (pre-order and what a sucker I was!). Once installed and fired up for the first time I can remember me saying what the ??? The stadimeter was some god awful thing, the interface was total crap, the game as a whole was utter crap. 10 minutes later it found it's place in my home - collecting dust on the shelf. It has never been played since that first time. First impressions can never be changed and my first impression of SH4 was awful. Nothing anyone can do to change my opinion of SH4 now.
SH5 was a breath of fresh air. The devs included tools to make it easy to mod. They also made it scriptable - which means you can extend the game!! Now I'm including my own .dlls into the game and breaking new frontiers by patching the .exe. Sorry, SH5 does it for me.
SH3 is just old. I wouldn't waste another person's time on it.

You and me both brother. As soon as I found out I jumped right back onto Silent Hunter 3.

But hey this is good now we have another reason. Hype caused by exceptions and advertisement turned people off once it wasn't the bees knees. Then again SH3 was terrible until the modding community got of the ground as well.

So when are we to expect a type 2 or type 9 or even a type 21 in Sh5? Sorry just a friendly ribbing at your breath of fresh air.:D

nemo7

03-17-11, 12:24 PM

Bakkels

03-17-11, 12:34 PM

Ahoy matey.
From my point of view it is all about immersion. Yes, the SH3 IS an old game, a relic. BUT, for some reason the SH3+GWX3.0+SH3Commander combination still offers the most GRITTIER u-boat atmosphere/experience out there.

SH4 crew management and TC is fine BUT there is no immersion to sail December in N. Atlantic without seeing a cloud or a drop of rain..

Cheers

... but if there was a mod for this, more people would perhaps be playing sh4, and then more people would be modding sh4. So this is a circular thing.

@Slyguy; see what I mean? Frau Kaleun didn't make a circular argument. Because this is not a debate. It's about finding the CAUSE to why sh4 isn't modded. So her theory isn't necessarily wrong at all.

As far as that line of thinking goes, its a good thing that was never applied to SH3, or the game would still be like it was without any of the awesome mods. Then we wouldn't have a 4 or 5.

Well you're right there, my guess why that didn't happen for sh3, was because sh3 was a huge step forward compared to sh2. Sh4 might look better than sh3, but the improvement sh3 showed compared to sh2 is a lot bigger. My guess is that's why sh3 got that much attention.

frau kaleun

03-17-11, 12:34 PM

In fairness though I was posing a thought. Which appears to have been true, atleast that is what I understad from your post. The reason why people in SH3 aren't into SH4 is because there isn't a GWX or Commander as you added, therefore there is no interest in it.

As far as that line of thinking goes, its a good thing that was never applied to SH3, or the game would still be like it was without any of the awesome mods.

The difference is that people created those things for SH3, and not for SH4. Why? Because they wanted to, and had the time + energy + interest + skills to make it happen.

And then you're back to the question of why no one does the same for SH4... well, TBH, as noted above despite any efforts to do otherwise, you phrased your question in a way that came across to me as:

"OMG guys SH4 is so much better than SH3, why are you wasting your time modding SH3?"

with a little of

"I think you should be modding SH4 because that's what I like to play, please explain why you're not doing so."

So, you know, I think things kinda got off on the wrong foot.

OTOH, if you want to know why modders aren't modding SH4, and the reason they give is that they like 3 or 5 better, then they're not the ones who are starting a flame war, all they're doing is expressing the same preference for one game over another that you did in your OP. If it's acceptable to want more mods for SH4 because that's the game you prefer, and to say so, and to ask modders why they don't make them for you, then it's just as acceptable for a modder to say "I don't mod 4 because I prefer playing/working with 3 (or) 5." :DL

nemo7

03-17-11, 12:47 PM

... but if there was a mod for this, more people would perhaps be playing sh4, and then more people would be modding sh4. So this is a circular thing.

...

Well you're right there, my guess why that didn't happen for sh3, was because sh3 was a huge step forward compared to sh2. Sh4 might look better than sh3, but the improvement sh3 showed compared to sh2 is a lot bigger. My guess is that's why sh3 got that much attention.

No matey, it is not circular thing. IMO the gritty u-boat atmosphere was already in the vanilla SH3. SH4 being initially designed for the Pacific. We shouldnt forget that..

Agree

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 12:50 PM

So, you know, I think things kinda got off on the wrong foot.

Ya think?:D I guess this is why PC (Political Correctness) is so "popular" in our times. For fear that our opinions might offend someone. Did I mention I hate PC?

But I think you summed it up earlier in one of your post, yes I know your were joking when you said SH3 was your religion. So to that extent no matter what I would have said, the fact that I like SH4 now more than SH3 would have rubbed some thin skinned folks the wrong way.

I mean it when I said I did proof it a good many times, I just failed to take into every account of how my words might be interpreted. I guess that's the "ole" "Can't please them all" argument.

It was really meant to sound like a plea to get people to try, but I suppose I should have made that plea before 5.

So my initial assumption seems correct because there is no GWX. I also think it is because it was primarily (before an expansion) an American Fleet Boat game. Thoughts?

No matey, it is not circular thing. IMO the gritty u-boat atmosphere was already in the vanilla SH3. SH4 being initially designed for the Pacific. We shouldnt forget that..

Agree

What is this gritty atmosphere? I'm at a loss for what you mean by that. I will agree the weather isn't as bad as the weather in SH3 but then again I don't think Sh3's weather model was 100% either.

nemo7

03-17-11, 01:07 PM

What is this gritty atmosphere? I'm at a loss for what you mean by that. I will agree the weather isn't as bad as the weather in SH3 but then again I don't think Sh3's weather model was 100% either.

Darker. A lot darker than SH4 matey..

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 01:15 PM

Are we talking like Batman 89 to The Dark Knight darker or do you mean like color? Like the Atlantic isn't green or that Poseidon isn't taking a leak on you 365?

You could always add sand for that ole familiar gritty feeling. :D

frau kaleun

03-17-11, 01:16 PM

the fact that I like SH4 now more than SH3 would have rubbed some thin skinned folks the wrong way.

Uh, hold on a second, it's not about people who like SH3 being thin skinned and getting offended because you prefer SH4. Nobody cares about that.

It's about the way you approached the issue, which was to come into a forum dedicated to SH3, cite the reasons why you think a different game is better, and then bemoan the fact that the people here who play and mod and quite possibly prefer SH3 don't provide you with the same awesome mods for the other game that you prefer.

So lemme ask you a question: are you modding SH4? Are you investing the time and energy into learning the skill and doing the work required to make the game you prefer into the game you want it to be?

If not, then I'm really not interested in hearing anything more along the lines of "but why aren't you guys fixing MY game :wah:". I'm just sayin'. :D

So my initial assumption seems correct because there is no GWX. I also think it is because it was primarily (before an expansion) an American Fleet Boat game. Thoughts?

Honestly, I don't know if I would've bought 4 if there hadn't been a uboat addon. OTOH, I haven't installed it or played it, so it's entirely possible I might do so and fall in love with the USN part of the sim and stick with 3 for my uboat fix. Doubtful, but not impossible. OTOH, I have little or no personal connection to (and know far less about) US naval operations in the Pacific, so the pull is not as strong to sim that part of the war.

OT other OH, I wouldn't have bought 4 if I hadn't had some kind of digital coupon from Ubi that got me a discount on the purchase of something from the 'old' online store, right before they updated everything to a new site or whatever it was they did. I had the coupon, and I sure as hell wasn't gonna buy SH5 at that point, and I already had SH3. So I got 4.

Who knows when I'll install it and fire it up, I'm still working on too much stuff for 3 to even play that one instead of tinkering with it.

nemo7

03-17-11, 01:21 PM

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 02:05 PM

Uh, hold on a second, it's not about people who like SH3 being thin skinned and getting offended because you prefer SH4. Nobody cares about that.

It's about the way you approached the issue, which was to come into a forum dedicated to SH3, cite the reasons why you think a different game is better, and then bemoan the fact that the people here who play and mod and quite possibly prefer SH3 don't provide you with the same awesome mods for the other game that you prefer.

So lemme ask you a question: are you modding SH4? Are you investing the time and energy into learning the skill and doing the work required to make the game you prefer into the game you want it to be?

If not, then I'm really not interested in hearing anything more along the lines of "but why aren't you guys fixing MY game :wah:". I'm just sayin'. :D

Honestly, I don't know if I would've bought 4 if there hadn't been a uboat addon. OTOH, I haven't installed it or played it, so it's entirely possible I might do so and fall in love with the USN part of the sim and stick with 3 for my uboat fix. Doubtful, but not impossible. OTOH, I have little or no personal connection to (and know far less about) US naval operations in the Pacific, so the pull is not as strong to sim that part of the war.

OT other OH, I wouldn't have bought 4 if I hadn't had some kind of digital coupon from Ubi that got me a discount on the purchase of something from the 'old' online store, right before they updated everything to a new site or whatever it was they did. I had the coupon, and I sure as hell wasn't gonna buy SH5 at that point, and I already had SH3. So I got 4.

Who knows when I'll install it and fire it up, I'm still working on too much stuff for 3 to even play that one instead of tinkering with it.

Ok one it's my forums as much as yours. Any time I mention Sh4 people seem to forget I liked Sh3.

Two where would you have preferred that I ask such a question of the Sh3 modding community?

Three it isn't about you "fixin" nothing. I do what I can for myself because I do not have the know how to make something worth posting on this forum. if you do that's great don't act high and mighty.

Four yes thin skinned. I wasn't directing that at you. But yea when I mention SH4 it's funny that shortly after I do this type of post occurs. Just sayin.

I was hoping to get help from this part of the community regarding learning this that and the other but now I doubt I'm even going to ask or for that matter consider working on it.

So to rap this thread up you guys like SH3 because it has stuff made by people to make it better where as Sh4 doesn't so you don't like it. You don't plan on changing your minds it seems and it's doubtful you would lend assistance to any effort to Sh4 ATO because it for Sh4.

Seems to be the gist of it what I got. Thanks for the warm welcome, don't worry I know the way out.

brabham85

03-17-11, 02:17 PM

If the lack of advance in ATO mods bother you, why do you don't do yourself?

The skills for that are available in internet. You should consider that before came here and just criticise the time, effort and work of all modders - wich all community enjoys for FREE.

SkyBaron

03-17-11, 02:19 PM

I own SH 3, 4 and 5. IMO they haven't made a U-boat war simulation that matches SH3+addons yet. SH5 gets close but it's just a Type VII simulation with very nice graphics. The lack of U-boats on a um... U-boat sim is a big turn off.

I also love the US vs. Japan pacific submarine warfare "mystique", and Sh4+addons (TMO/RFB) captured that. Even though there's an ATO mod for SH4 I can only associate it with fleet boats and can't see myself playing fleet boats on SH3 or uboats on SH4. To me they provide two distinct sub sim experiences.

But to each his own. Whenever they make an improved(graphics and gameplay) U-boat war simulation game I'll be happy to buy it. Until then SH3+Addons all the way for my U-boat fix! :rock:

Bakkels

03-17-11, 02:21 PM

As you can see to the left, I too am new to this forum, and I can't say anything different then that I got a VERY warm welcome.
In your original post, you said you noticed most modders attention goes to Sh3 and asked why that was. You said you didn't want to start a flaming, but when you accuse people of 'staying in the past' you might have expected some of these replies.

Asking people for help or answers to a question you have, and criticizing them in the same opening post might not be the best way to go about it.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 02:22 PM

It's funny that in all this BS nobody once thought the reason why I was asking was because I might try and emulate there ideas if I could.

Don't worry I'd take a long walk off a short pier before I stick my head around these parts again and start asking questions.

Later,much later.

Herr-Berbunch

03-17-11, 02:56 PM

No, stick around, we can all learn something from each other. We may not like or agree what that is but this is a very welcoming community and we need all sides.

What we don't need is WoW gold - whatever that crap is, and you didn't bring that!:D

drakkhen20

03-17-11, 02:57 PM

geez sly.... you went and stuck your head in a anthill covered in honey.:D
too many people and too many preferences. give it time itll come around to where people will turn there sights on sh4 because sh3 will be way too ancient. time changes quick in the computer world. we all know how you feel over in ato expressed by some of your post over there and lurker not doing anything about it. but whats his name is working on some things. but if you feel this strongly about you really should start learning how to do things yourself and ask when you reach a point you dont understand, thats what i do and still doing. just tread softly and learn from other modders. don't let a few confrontations with a few others put you down a short peer. if we all did that there wouldn't be awsome mods. hans almost incountered the same thing in a old post and look at him. his thread got stickied. questions like these can be answered by your self if you sit back and read post and have major understanding about personal preference and user friendlyness and which game was out first and it was in the right place at the right time for certain people to make awsome mods with what they had or make it work for them because they were almost in the same position as you at one point in time. everybody here is here to help the next person. thats why this forum was created so a mass community could get together and help and create. like i said before... give it time man. i prefer playing all of the sh series with all the mods i can muster and make compatible with each other. time sweet time and knowledge.:yeah::up::yep::know::|\\

:salute:

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 03:03 PM

Ya think?:D I guess this is why PC (Political Correctness) is so "popular" in our times. For fear that our opinions might offend someone. Did I mention I hate PC?

Hating PC is one thing. Approaching people without tact is another. You got the welcome you did because you were pretty standoffish in your OP, and you continue to be.

If you approach people around here with a good attitude, you'll find this to be one of the most welcoming and helpful places on the internet. If not...well, you see what happens.

frau kaleun

03-17-11, 03:12 PM

Ok one it's my forums as much as yours. Any time I mention Sh4 people seem to forget I liked Sh3.

Two where would you have preferred that I ask such a question of the Sh3 modding community?

And again, it's not the fact that you asked, it's the way you phrased the question and everything that came with it. It came across not as "why don't more modders work on SH4" but "why don't more modders work on SH4 when I think it's better than SH3."

It would be like me going into the SH4 Forum and starting a thread where I claim I'm asking why the people there enjoy SH4 so much, but what I actually do is express my dismay and confusion over the fact that they play SH4 when they could be playing SH3, which I've decided is a much better game, so it makes no sense for them not be be playing SH3 instead of SH4. I wouldn't expect that to go over very well. :DL

Three it isn't about you "fixin" nothing. I do what I can for myself because I do not have the know how to make something worth posting on this forum. if you do that's great don't act high and mighty.

If nothing needs to be "fixed," then I assume the game is perfect as is? No need for mods or modders in that case. And I'm not acting high and mighty, my modding skills - such as they are - are extremely limited. But they were completely nonexistent when I started out, now they're not, mostly because I've spent more time learning how to mod things to my own satisfaction than complaining about the fact that other people weren't making the mods I wanted for the game(s) I choose to play.

Four yes thin skinned. I wasn't directing that at you. But yea when I mention SH4 it's funny that shortly after I do this type of post occurs. Just sayin.

But you didn't just "mention" SH4. Your initial question is based on the assumption that SH4 is better and therefore you can't understand why more people are modding SH3 instead. The first modder who responded answered that he doesn't mod SH4 because he prefers to work on SH5. At best, he gave an honest answer to your question, At worst, he did basically the same thing in response to you regarding 4 that you had just done to everybody else regarding 3 in your OP. You didn't seem to like it, why would you expect anyone else to react differently?

I was hoping to get help from this part of the community regarding learning this that and the other but now I doubt I'm even going to ask or for that matter consider working on it.

First time you've mentioned it. You didn't come here asking for help with learning to mod things, you came here asking why other people aren't doing the modding.

It's funny that in all this BS nobody once thought the reason why I was asking was because I might try and emulate there ideas if I could.

Sorry, I only read your posts, not your mind. :O:

So to rap this thread up you guys like SH3 because it has stuff made by people to make it better where as Sh4 doesn't so you don't like it.

You seem to have arrived here with that idea firmly in mind already, I thought it was supposed to be about why modders don't mod SH4. :hmmm:

You don't plan on changing your minds it seems and it's doubtful you would lend assistance to any effort to Sh4 ATO because it for Sh4Seems to be the gist of it what I got. Thanks for the warm welcome, don't worry I know the way out.

Do you plan on changing your mind about why SH4 is better than SH3, or worth more time and attention than SH3 or 5? No? Then why is someone else's preference for a different game even an issue? Is a puzzlement.

Wreford-Brown

03-17-11, 03:43 PM

As a modder, I know the SH3 file structure and I like playing the game. I tried SH4 but it wasn't for me and almost all of the mods I create are for my own enjoyment - I decide to release them so other people can enjoy them too.

Most of my mods nowadays are .mis mods and I haven't taken the time and effort to get to learn SH4, and I won't because SH5 is out there. If I need to learn new file systems then I'll do it for SH5 (or 6? or 7?) but there is so much more that SH3 still has to offer. People are now converting SH5 ships to SH3 and we can script them into the campaign. That means we can take what was a fairly indifferent game (SH3 vanilla), enhance it with one of the supermods out there (GWX, NYGM, LSH etc.) then further enhance it with the crew of modders that have stuck with SH3.

What's even more exciting is people thinking outside of the box and coming up with innovative ideas such as the Warship mod, HAHD and the Spanish Civil War mod. There's life in the old girl yet!

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 03:50 PM

I've never claimed that Sh4 is better other than the fact the engine was brought further because of a new version and that can only be based in theory.

There are certain limitations that Sh4 has that Sh3 doesn't IE atleast in the ATO it is advised not to get with 20km of a major allies port due to the way the game loads ship models or traffic.

One of the main reason I asked what I asked was because I was looking to see what kept people here. What features what look what feel SH3 has that SH4 doesn't. Once I got a good number of ideas bounced around my next salvo of questions was going to be what could be done to change this is Sh4 and if anyone would be willing to guide me through programs or manipulating Sh4 to achieve this. One thing I have learned about modding is there isn't always a cut and dry way of doing this and that. Sometimes if takes a fresh approach to see a solution sometimes it takes adjusting various variables in order to achieve the said goal.

Oddly enough the most offensive approach I thought I could take was barging in here asking for all the trade secrets. I understand that there are certain things about Sh3 that have kept you guys playing it for so long. I just assumed they were more tangible than the responses I was getting.

I'm afraid there isn't any way for me to emulate Commander without literally copying and past somethings and trying to make them compatible with Sh4 but that just feels cheap.

From what I have understood what really keeps you here is that it's Sh3. And in which case this is absolutely diddely that I can do to Sh4 to make it Sh3. All the modding on Earth won't change that's. I get that Sh3 is darker and grittier but as I said jokingly all I can do is add sand to it. I received vague answers when I was looking for meat and tatters.

I saw a new interface like mod that looks beautiful but since I don't know the differences in software between Sh4 and 3 it may not be possible. According to one Sh4 is not as easy to mod as Sh3.

But the overall idea that I was trying to prove was that Sh4 was capable of all these Sh3 things and more. By incorporating the ideas I thought I would receive I thought it might "convert" you to Sh4. But like I said that looks about as hopeless now as raising the Titanic because it's just Sh3 that you like and the idea of Sh4 is despised. So there isn't any point in me doing what I had planned. I guess over all that is why I got so upset

Wreford-Brown

03-17-11, 03:53 PM

One of the main problems is that it takes time and effort to mod any of the games, so modders will tend to stick to one SH or another.

The SH4 file structure is exceptionally close to SH3 so if you're looking to do something specific then it's worth either asking for help in the SH4 forums or find an SH3 modder who does similar work and ask them for help.

DivingDuck

03-17-11, 03:55 PM

Moin,

ignoring everything said in this thread I´ll tell you the reason(s) why I did not mod SHIV, which may, in whole or in part, apply for the the rest of the GWX crew too.

When SHIV was released a lot of unfinished but great mods for SHIII have been in the pipeline/shortly prior to release.
Stock SHIV did not feature German subs. Thus it was a completely different game.
The GWX4 project was far from completion when SH5 loomed at the horizon. It was announced to feature everything GWX4 was supposed to become. So, why start/continue a race we have been doomed to lose to UBI from the very beginning?
Once SHV was out, why should any modder abandon SHIII for SHIV instead of the newer SHV?
Once you´ve "learned SHIII", it´s hard to abandon and to start it all over again. You grow old and lazy and are destined for extinction. That´s how it basically is, new versions - new modders.

Regards,
DD

Herr-Berbunch

03-17-11, 03:58 PM

So there isn't any point in me doing what I had planned. I guess over all that is why I got so upset

Don't give up on a good idea, people are still finding new things/ways to mod SH3 and 4 will be the same, but good things don't just happen overnight - they take skill, experience, and above all, patience - that's the same whether it's for a supermod or for something a bit simpler like a skin.

drakkhen20

03-17-11, 04:17 PM

well from what i looked at. om looks like sh3 with the campaign and just really throwing this out there, but if you could convert the gwx to this om or even WAC, LSH it would be the ultimate. sometimes i find that sh4 and sh5 share a close file setup when it comes to ship models and weather i guess they use the same engine just sh5 is updated. but as far as the map and campaign sh3 and sh4 with om share alot. maybe on this we could possibly encourage other modders to take a look at this and improve om useing some technics from sh3 modding. theres always ideas and thoughts, screenshots and videos you can put out there for the sh3 community to see and maybe some will try it and like it or dislike it. the biggest thing i have never liked about sh3 is the water and thats basicly it. if it had the sh4 water effects it would be awsome and this is where sh4 with om for me comes into play as i do like some of the cosmetics and occosionally i like to play sh4 with TMO on the american side. alls these games are cool in there own way. in the hopefully near future we will see this sh3 dynamics make its way into OM. OM is a very good start in that direction.:up:

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 04:54 PM

I might still try my hand at making an OM expansion but like I said the reason I went here to get ideas was to prove that it could be done in Sh4. Making a Sh3.5 in Sh4 to help transition modders from 3. Ok maybe GWX is Sh3.5 maybe I'd make a 3.9 or something but you get what I mean. But still my over all goal was to convert. Since that mainly appears impossible that eliminates 90% of my motivation to do so.

I didn't really want to make a cookie cut version of GWX because I feel it wouldn't be fair to those gents. That would make it worlds easier but like I said the ATO lost ground due to it's flaws on release now that Sh5 is out y'all want to jump on board for it but didn't feel the same with Sh4. That's fine and understandable.

But it took a large group of people three some odd years to make GWX it is impossible, ok no very very very very improbable that I alone can achieve anything like that before Sh10 comes out.

So what it boils down to is that I had a very over ambitious dumb idea that isn't going to pan out. I guess I can go back to OM and be happy with that.

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 05:11 PM

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 05:21 PM

Meh forget it. I appreciate the ones who are trying to understand what I was doing but over all it was just a big turn off to get all the assumptions thrown at me time and time again despite my initial post stating other wise and me repeatedly stating over and over again that it was not my intention.

Despite what most of you appear to believe I had the best of intentions in what I asked and how I worded it. I can not help nor will I apologize for you miss interpreting my words or intentions. I was warned it wouldn't go over well and it is my own damn fault for not heeding it.

So I'll just shelve the idea and do something else. God I miss the days when we all worked together in harmony under Sh3.

Fish In The Water

03-17-11, 06:15 PM

Silent Hunter 4 needs hard core dedicated ATO players and modders such as the likes here in this forum. Yet you guys stick to your guns on just SH3. It begs the question why?

People mod what they love...

If I'm going to invest time, effort and talent in something it's because I have a passion for the subject. Many of us had already 'fallen' for SH3 prior to the release of IV. Just because something is newer doesn't mean we have the same 'feeling' for it.

You never forget your first love, and while the old gal may not be as spiffy as she once was, she'll always be special.

Bakkels

03-17-11, 06:19 PM

You got some reasonable answers, the topic 'cooled off' and still you feel the need to bring it up once more by pointing your finger and blaming everybody but yourself for a topic that got out of hand.
You could have just continued to discuss the possibilities the last posters brought up. Who knows, maybe some modders would help you work with s3 editor and tools like that (because very few here 'hate' sh4 as you seem to think) but unfortunately you didn't. I'll just leave it at that.

Sailor Steve

03-17-11, 06:25 PM

So to rap this thread up you guys like SH3 because it has stuff made by people to make it better where as Sh4 doesn't so you don't like it. You don't plan on changing your minds it seems and it's doubtful you would lend assistance to any effort to Sh4 ATO because it for Sh4.
And the guy who agrees with you the most is the one you took the most offence at. I've said several times now that I agree with you, and I have said many times SH4 is the better platform, and I wish that the great SH3 mods would be applied to it. It should be easy, since they're basically the same game. "Easy" is of course a relative term since my modding skills fall a little short of nil. But I did say that your wording left something to be desired. Some seriously talented modders have given their reasons for not liking SH4, and some others have tried to explain what they think are the reasons, and again only objected to your wording, and seeming lack of tact.

You have taken great offense at that, but you accuse anyone who disagrees as being "thin-skinned". You refuse to apologise, or acknowedge any possibility that you might have been wrong. Okay, I'll apologise for misinterpreting your words if indeed that's what happened.

I'll also be glad to help your project in whatever ways my limited skills allow. That said, you need to realize that the one accusation is true: you came into the SH3 forums, told people who preferred SH3 that they were "staying in the past", took every objection and every explanation as a personal affront, and then accused the others of being thin-skinned.

Yes, the negative reaction was your own fault. If you really want to do this, you can probably get plenty of help and friendly cooperation. If you just wanted to tell everybody you were right and they were wrong, then yes, you did get what you asked for.

As for the days when we all "worked together in harmony under SH3", are you sure you were really around then? The 'SH3 Wars' are legendary in these parts. People were banned for the things that went on then, and bitter recriminations still pop up every now and then. There was very little harmony, ever.

Madox58

03-17-11, 06:40 PM

Oh for Goodness sakes Guys!
Let it go!

Most people are in the dark as to who's doing what and when now days anyway!
:03:

This is starting to look like a
"Well, the bitching dropped in the SH5 area, Let's start again in the SH3 area! It's been awhile since we had a good Bitch War there!"
:har:

Tune in next Week when the "Roaming Bitch Fest' appears in the SH4 area!
We might have a Special 'Bitch Master' appear!
Remember, text your Vote for Master Bitcher to
666WTF at the end of each episode.
:haha:

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 06:50 PM

SS it was not you I was upset with it was Wraith as the first post he did exactly what I asked not to happen. But as it seems the majority thinks the misunderstanding was my fault then fine whatever it was my fault. What was difficult trying to post responses and read others and keep up while my idiot iPhone autocorrects what it thought I meant and me having to re type it to get it right.

I can't understand what was hostile or accusatory in my initial post when I specifically said that I was not trying to step on toes. Perhaps that was the only way I could think of saying at the time of course hind sight is 2020 and hind sight tells me I should have never posted in these parts.

Most everyone jumped to the conclusion that I was trying to do this or that when I was not, nobody stop and said well that might have been what it sounded like but not what he meant.

Just let this post die off I don't want anybodies help from here now I'm done with the God forsaken idea. Obviously it was terribly naive to think I might get some valuable foresight into modding from this part. I'll just stick to where I feel somewhat welcome.

I can't help but feel had I not mentioned anything about Sh4 that I would have gotten the answers that I wanted. I didn't get any answers other than Sh3 is better, and if I did I missed then while I was tying to duck and cover from the flack I was taking.

Yes my intial post was a plea and there isn't any reason to apologize the damage has been done on both sides. The proper and fitting thing to do is lock this thread and let it die. Everyone in the Sh3 community has my word I will never post anything else on "your" forums ever again.

And I guess I missed the Sh3 Wars or maybe I am not remembering it right. But it sure seems like we got along alot more than we ovvoisly do now.

SkyBaron

03-17-11, 06:55 PM

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 07:02 PM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1571491

Cool that solves the major issue I had with Sh3. I might just have to reinstall it and try it out.

Thanks for pointing that out Captain.

Madox58

03-17-11, 07:16 PM

drakkhen20

03-17-11, 07:45 PM

@privateer

can i cast my vote now.....:har:

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 08:03 PM

@Slyguy3129,

Your best bet is to talk to people by PM.
It keeps the BS to a minimum.
I myself was quite amazed at the speed at which this thread went to hell in a hand basket!

I took no offense at your orignial post as I've seen so many like it.
All I can say is:

'Shame on so many here for going on the offensive when a few friendly questions could have cleared things up and not evolved into what it has become.
What happened to the friendly approach? Did We all forget that in the Old SH4, then SH5 Bitch threads?
I myself am guilty of doing the same Yes, so don't throw that out as a defense. That would be makeing excuses.
And We all know what is said about excuses.
I am truley disturbed as of late about things around here.
I've half a mind to delete everything and move on.
(Well, I've always only had half a mind anyway)
But as my Daughter would say?
WHATEVER!'
:nope:

Haha had a girl who's favorite dare I say every response was whatever. But that was usually preceded by a few choice four letter words.

In their defense I suppose the accusation was "diametrically opposed"? It was really meant more as a statement more so than the other. Honestly I was rather proud that one I thought of diametrically two used it properly in a statement and three spelled it correctly from the get go.

In regards to PMing I will do so from now on. Was just hoping to get a general idea as to what kept them so I would have an idea what to emulate but C'est la vie! Lesson learned moving on.

*waves people on* Nothing to see here folks move along.

Ducimus

03-17-11, 08:40 PM

why are you even bothering with SH3 (or SH4 for that matter)? SH5 is the future! :rock:

The problem with that statement is:

1.) Poor choice in boat selection. Realistically speaking, in SH5, you have your choice of a type 7, a type 7, a type 7, oh and a type 7.

2.) DRM requirements. Nuff said.

3.) Granny.

I could add more counter points, but there are workarounds for some of them. So in fairness, i'll list only those three, as i believe they are sufficient.

---------------------

Now i've only glossed over the first page or two before my eyes glossed over into the back of my head. Instead of making any big statements, i'll only say this. The following screenshots show what SH4 is capable of as far as the ATO goes. Mind you, this is only ONE boat, and i specialized it for the tropics, but it shows what is possible for all boats.

http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_02.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_01.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_16.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_05.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_06.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_12.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_13.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_15.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_18.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_22.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_28.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_29.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_30.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ubm/preview_31.jpg

Now the thing for me is. Just because i posted these screenshots, and posted a beta version of a uboat mod, doesn't mean you should be looking to me for anything. I've been modding this game since it was released, and i've pretty much shot my wad in terms of patience and motivation. Right now, there isn't a project i could start, that i would have the energy to finish.

SH4 is capable of more then what its given credit for, but it'll be up to a new crop of modders to do it. Maybe some from SH3 might be interested, maybe not. Maybe some entirely new people need to take up the torch. Either way, you have a swiss army knife called S3D that was special purpose built for SH4. It's practically like having an SDK on the games resource files, and in many respects is a lot more powerful then the goblin editor included with SH5.

It all comes down to desire, and motivation. You either have it, or you don't.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 08:48 PM

Ducimus

03-17-11, 08:59 PM

Ooooooooo! So pretty, want to touch.

In all seriousness though that looks like some sort of secret weapon you got there Duci. Didn't even know you were working on anything ATO! Then again that shows how much I know. *Shrug*.:yeah:

The only secret i keep is crush depths of subs.
Yeah i did start an ATO mod, i posted it as a beta (2 pages back on SH4 ato forum), and i only focused on one sub because i don't have it in me to do all of them. Not after working on the PTO and all 8 or 9 subs involved there. As it turns out, i didn't even have the energy to finish the one sub.

The interior you see is flakmonkeys, used with permission. I spliced some of it into the existing type 9 control room and radio room with S3D. Thankfully flakmonkey made his interior modular, which made this possible. The periscope TDC is karamazovnew's work.

Madox58

03-17-11, 09:06 PM

All the Guys involved with GWX put a hell of alot of time into SH4 before We were recalled.
There is a VAST amount of work and knowledge each of them has I hope.
My involvement with SH5 will draw to a close soon.
Once I release the first new Unit in GR2 format and give the How to build out?
I'm done with it.
I will never release nor work anymore on the Import part.

I'm more involved with SH4 on a near GWX level as I see it.

Slyguy3129

03-17-11, 09:52 PM

Just a random question but from what I've read and seen it appears that the Type9 was the closest thing the Germans had to a "fleet"boat? I just can't get over how similar American Boats and the Type9 looks as far as size and range and the whatnot.

:timeout: also can't help but wonder if some of those ideas were passed on by thier Japanese friends who were having a hell of a time dealing with them out in the PTO. Just one of those things that strikes me a bit to odd to be coincidental.

Fish In The Water

03-17-11, 10:14 PM

Cool that solves the major issue I had with Sh3. I might just have to reinstall it and try it out.

Thanks for pointing that out Captain.

Nice to see something positive came out of this thread after all.

Sailor Steve

03-18-11, 12:28 AM

I'm more involved with SH4 on a near GWX level as I see it.
Now that is music to my poor old ears. :sunny:

Hans Witteman

03-18-11, 12:56 AM

Hi shipmates,

Seem like i miss a fun post is it about modding or some sort of technical rant?:har:

I won't go as low as bashing other SH title because each one have it own strength and weakness but for my self 4 majors points arises in my mind when i think of it and it is :

1. Drm intrusion in my life no way it like bowing as a slave to the tyrant.

2. limited boats, limited campaign and frankly the ships doesn't look good enough to my own personal taste.

3. Demand too much of a high end system and people are getting poorer not richer so i work for the modest folks like me and just look at the first HAHD surface ship tomorrow you will be surprised believe me.

4.Lack of a powerful editor like S3d to facilitated work.

As for Sh4 i just saw pic and youtube videos on it and there is something i don't like about the rendering engine but this is only my own personal taste again and also i made a thread some weeks ago on engine comparison and to implemented all the Atlantic campaign elements would be a hell of a job so that why i stick with SH3.

When our mod will be release some will see capability that they never tough possible in that engine i still have secrets features that i don't talk about:hmmm:

So that was my grain of salt in this ocean of rant&wave. Also artists with a lot of experience can make an ugly game look fabulous.

There are 3 things you should never allow in life :

1. Let some programmers do artistic stuff.

2. Let some artists do programming.

3.Government control over your life.

Best regards Hans

Stiebler

03-18-11, 05:11 AM

To return to the original topic:

I am one of those who prefer to mod SH3 rather than its sequels. There are several reasons:

1. SH3 was the best U-boat simulation.
At the time of release, SH3 was by far the best U-boat simulation available. Aces of the Deep had come and gone. In some respects it had more game-play features, but I think people forget how buggy it was even on DOS. The devs had even installed an auto-save feature every ten minutes so that you could restart the game after every crash. By contrast, I completed three complete careers (1939 – 1945; perhaps around 100 war patrols) on a computer that, coincidentally, was almost identical to Ubisoft’s ‘minimum specification’ for SH3. I had just three CTDs in total, and two of those were on the same patrol.

2. Reluctance to abandon existing skills.
As Diving Duck has already mentioned, once you master a technique (in this instance, modding of SH3), you become very reluctant to abandon the skill for something even close. I think, too, that the devs made a mistake in changing the game interface for each release, since who wants to start afresh each time? As a chief executive said recently, explaining his company’s poor results after major alterations to procedures, ‘the only people who like change are babies with wet nappies’!

3. SH4/SH5 released too buggy.
When SH4 was first launched, it was aimed explicitly at the Pacific theatre. Fair enough, but I have no interest in that. One of my NYGM colleagues, Observer, is an American ex-submariner on diesel-electric submarines. Naturally, he was ecstatic at the release. He abandoned SH4 within 6 weeks, because it was so buggy, and never took it up again. That was not an encouraging start, and it is obvious that SH5 has had the same disastrous launch.

4. U-boats an afterthought for SH4.
Since then, SH4 has been improved by patches (and also mods), but the U-boat addition for the Indian Ocean was an afterthought, perhaps because sales of Pacific-SH4 had been below those of Atlantic-SH3. An afterthought tacked onto a Pacific campaign is not an encouraging basis for modding. Nor for playing for that matter, particularly since one of the two U-boats never even saw action in real-life.

5. Lurker's U-boat campaign for SH4.
Lurker has famously made a complete war campaign for U-boats with SH4, using many components taken (with permission) from NYGM (SH3). But Lurker acknowledges in his own write-up for his Atlantic campaign that he could not simulate many elements of the U-boat war that were available with SH3. And he has now abandoned his own super-mod for SH4, which seems to tell its own story about his own perception of its success.

6. Defects of SH5.
The defects of SH5 have been stated too often to need much repetition. In summary, released buggy, only one U-boat, ends in 1943 and inadequate game-play. In my case, there is the additional problem of the DRM. For security and contractual reasons, I cannot connect my main computer to the Internet. The computer on which I am typing this response lacks the specification to play SH5.

7. SH3 still is the best simulation.
All those who say that players should abandon SH3 for SH4 or SH5 emphasise the improved graphics of each successive SH title. There are many of us who are only interested in game-play. For example, the only time I ever look at the graphics of SH3 is when I am looking through the periscope or UZO at a ship which I am trying to sink. I play virtually all the remainder of the game on the map. I never use camera view, or explore the insides of the U-boat, unless testing (other people’s) mods for NYGM. So improvements to graphics provide me with negligible game benefit. And the game-play of SH3 remains far superior to that of U-boats in SH4 and SH5 (or so I am told). References to graphics providing game ‘im-mersion’ always make me laugh. I thought U-boats were supposed to be about ‘sub-mersion’? How much can you see when underwater?

I hope that makes everything crystal clear to the original poster of this thread. Not such a hard question, really.

Stiebler.

Slyguy3129

03-18-11, 08:34 AM

Thanks for the well though out post Stiebler.

In your eyes what specific gameplay elements are you talking about? Again I was hoping to emulate that feel as best we can so little details are important.

One thing I've noticed in OM is that the planes don't seem that dangerous, I'm hoping it's one of the first things we change we are able to go ahead with this mod.

You mentioned the interface and I agree the new interface mod for Sh3 looks wonderful.

Ducimus

03-18-11, 11:35 AM

I have just a couple of rebuttals at steibler's post.

2. Reluctance to abandon existing skills.
As Diving Duck has already mentioned, once you master a technique (in this instance, modding of SH3), you become very reluctant to abandon the skill for something even close. I think, too, that the devs made a mistake in changing the game interface for each release, since who wants to start afresh each time? As a chief executive said recently, explaining his company’s poor results after major alterations to procedures, ‘the only people who like change are babies with wet nappies’!

Most of what you know from SH3 carries over. The big change really is:

a.) a few controllers don't work how they did in Sh3. Most do however.
b.) The inclusion of UPC files. Which are not hard to learn.

3. SH4/SH5 released too buggy.
When SH4 was first launched, it was aimed explicitly at the Pacific theatre. Fair enough, but I have no interest in that. One of my NYGM colleagues, Observer, is an American ex-submariner on diesel-electric submarines. Naturally, he was ecstatic at the release. He abandoned SH4 within 6 weeks, because it was so buggy, and never took it up again. That was not an encouraging start, and it is obvious that SH5 has had the same disastrous launch.

Released too buggy....
How about now a few years after release though? It would be really unfair to every modder who ever worked on the game to say the same now. Observer didn't quite abondon SH4 until much much later. He was infact, one of the minds behind the Real Fleet Boat mod. He did quite a bit of work on it.

4. U-boats an afterthought for SH4.
Since then, SH4 has been improved by patches (and also mods), but the U-boat addition for the Indian Ocean was an afterthought, perhaps because sales of Pacific-SH4 had been below those of Atlantic-SH3. An afterthought tacked onto a Pacific campaign is not an encouraging basis for modding. Nor for playing for that matter, particularly since one of the two U-boats never even saw action in real-life.

LOL Boy did i call this one earlier (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1619633&postcount=41). I'll just nod my head and acknowledge that for some people the very existance of anything NOT a uboat, is some kind travesty upon mankind. Though, i'll never understand this mentality.

5. Lurker's U-boat campaign for SH4.
Lurker has famously made a complete war campaign for U-boats with SH4, using many components taken (with permission) from NYGM (SH3). But Lurker acknowledges in his own write-up for his Atlantic campaign that he could not simulate many elements of the U-boat war that were available with SH3. And he has now abandoned his own super-mod for SH4, which seems to tell its own story about his own perception of its success.

I feel i know lurker well enough, having worked with him many times over the last few years to be able to say it is false statement that he abandoned his supermod over the state of the game itself. More likely he quite because
a.) People nitpick, cry and complain too much
b.) At some point, trying to manage everything yourself becomes too much.

Seriously, some of the people nitpicking at his work got under his skin. He was never much for words, but when he vented in private, it was usually about some A-hole who opened his mouth somehow in relation to his mod.

Anywho, i've involved myself in this thread far more then i should have, it is a waste of time, and people will only get worked up. The original poster asked some related questions in the SH4 ATO mod forum, and i hadn't realized he had the cahonies to post this thread in this forum. (I'm guessing he didn't know any better) Anyway, I was just bored one day, looked in, and there it was. I couldn't help but respond once or twice despite better judgment.

Bilge_Rat

03-18-11, 12:16 PM

This is starting to look like a
"Well, the bitching dropped in the SH5 area, Let's start again in the SH3 area! It's been awhile since we had a good Bitch War there!"
:har:

Its a regular love fest in the SH5 forums these days. :D

------

I rarely post here since I have not played sh3 in years, but I think the answer to the OP is obvious.

All modders who are interested in working on the U-Boat wars are working on SH3/5 since most players who want to take a U-Boat out for a spin play either SH3 or 5 depending on their taste.

The modders who do work on SH4 mostly work on the U.S. Fleet Boat aspect, since most players who play SH4 do it because they want to play with a U.S. Fleet Boat and not yet another U-Boat sim.

There is no real incentive for any modder to work on the U-Boat side of SH4. The engine is very similar to SH3 where the modding is very far advanced and it does not have the advanced scripting features which are possible in SH5.