View Full Version : Japanese Tsunami
Gargamel
03-11-11, 01:35 AM
TOKYO (AP) -- Japanese television has shown major tsunami damage in northern Japan on Friday, following a magnitude-7.9 earthquake.http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=ILEDW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Hawaii said a tsunami warning was in effect for Japan, Russia, Marcus Island and the Northern Marianas. A tsunami watch has been issued for Guam, Taiwan, the Philippines, Indonesia and U.S. state of Hawaii.
Let's hope all our subsimmer's along the pacific rim are all ok.
Public broadcaster NHK showed cars, trucks, houses and buildings being swept away by tsunami in Onahama city in Fukushima prefecture.
Gargamel
03-11-11, 01:51 AM
Been upgraded:
The quake that struck 2:46 p.m. was followed by a series of aftershocks, including a 7.4-magnitude one about 30 minutes later. The U.S. Geological Survey upgraded the strength of the first quake to a magnitude 8.8.
8.8 :o
I turned on live TV, and I first see boats swept away, then cars floating down streets, then HOUSES floating down streets.
Good god this is massive :o
The live pictures from there, where the tsunami is still ongoing and continuing to move ashore, are seriously apocalyptic.
Gargamel
03-11-11, 02:14 AM
8.9 now
Gargamel
03-11-11, 02:42 AM
Live feed here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709598
Watching the Al Jazeera Stream (Well listening really since connection is too slow to play the video well)
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Edit: So how long till Fox starts blaming the liberals and Obama?
Too Soon?
Tchocky
03-11-11, 04:31 AM
Watching this live on BBC. Jaw-dropping.
Gargamel
03-11-11, 04:36 AM
Edit: So how long till Fox starts blaming the liberals and Obama?
Too Soon?
Yes... too soon :O:
Gargamel
03-11-11, 04:38 AM
Apparently an Oil refinery went up in the fires.
Current news conference says it's the largest quake to Japan in recorded history.
Tsunami is over 7m they say.
Matador.es
03-11-11, 04:41 AM
Incredible. The footage is shocking! They say it’s the worst eart shake in 250 years…
joegrundman
03-11-11, 04:45 AM
holy moly. i only left tokyo a year ago.
best place i ever lived in
Looks very nasty. I heard a short while ago that the confirmed death toll had reached 19. IT looks like a large part of the northeastern coast has been devestated!
Gargamel
03-11-11, 04:59 AM
TarJak.... have you heard anything about a warning there about tsunami's? The PTWC seems to have issued an alert for the entire Pacific.
http://www.weather.gov/ptwc/index.php?region=1
The aerial footage of the wave hitting shore is amazing. The photography from this one will far surpass the Sumatra quake.
Tchocky
03-11-11, 05:04 AM
The aerial footage of the wave hitting shore is amazing. The photography from this one will far surpass the Sumatra quake.
That's something I've noticed, and I hope it plays into rescue/casualty results. More aerial footage implies more helicopters, more chance of rescuing people. Japan is much better equipped to deal with this kind of thing than somewhere such as Banda Aceh was.
joegrundman
03-11-11, 05:13 AM
japan is superbly well equipped.
The very large building we worked in was built on enormous (and i mean enormous) springs to cope with large earthquakes
papa_smurf
03-11-11, 05:34 AM
Am watching this on BBC news right now. Even though the epicenter was 400km off Japan, it still shows the power of the earthquake.
Pictures from the earthquake:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709791
Red Cross now saying the waves may be higher than some Pacific Islands.
TarJak.... have you heard anything about a warning there about tsunami's? The PTWC seems to have issued an alert for the entire Pacific.
http://www.weather.gov/ptwc/index.php?region=1
The aerial footage of the wave hitting shore is amazing. The photography from this one will far surpass the Sumatra quake.
I did hear that on the news also but there's been no alert issued for Sydney. Not sure where abouts the warnings are being issued for down here.
EDIT:Looks like the threat to Australia is a furfey: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/no-australian-tsunami-threat-say-authorities-20110311-1br74.html
And the consequences for Japan's economy and even globalization will be felt, I hope that people who have suffered will get quick rescue and assistance
Whoa...
That's....
Good god...
Horrible.
But I doubt there will be a casualty list as big as that of Haiti.
A Nuclear Power Plant at Fukushima is currently unable to cool two of its reactors due to damage from the earthquake. An emergency situation has been declared.
papa_smurf
03-11-11, 08:57 AM
From BBC News:A ship carrying 100 people was swept away, Japanese media reported, quoting police in Miyagi. It is not clear what happened to the ship and its passengers.
Platapus
03-11-11, 09:03 AM
I saw some video coverage of water flowing over an embankment. The scale was hard to figure out until I saw that the "debris" being washed over the embankment were automobiles. :o
CNN was also reporting that this was the biggest earthquake in Japan since 1900.
Terrible. :nope:
The footage that is stunning me at the moment is the wall of debris flowing across the landscape and through a village as seen from a helicopter. It's just...well...like something out of a Roland Emmerich movie.
commandosolo2009
03-11-11, 11:26 AM
Looks very nasty. I heard a short while ago that the confirmed death toll had reached 19. IT looks like a large part of the northeastern coast has been devestated!
actually it's 200 or 300 people dead, and the thousands missing.. We hope Japan survives this, and we hope they don't build more escorts to make things smoother for us skippers :)
Sailor Steve
03-11-11, 11:39 AM
I was watching the live feed from Gargamel's link, and they were interviewing a woman who was talking about the length of the quake. I was amazed once again by the advanced state of modern technology. She described all the phone lines being down, and went on to say that she used her iPhone to connect to the internet and tell her friends she was alright, all before they had even heard about it on the news.
Still, this shows how much we are still at the mercy of nature's forces, even with all our advances.
Growler
03-11-11, 12:15 PM
Words fail me.
8.9??
Followed by a 7m tsunami.
And now, evacuations from the area around one nuclear plant, and questions about at least two others.
200 to 300 bodies found in a beach in Sendai, after the tsunami. Damn, terrible situation! :nope::nope::nope::-?
Dogfish40
03-11-11, 12:36 PM
I posted this in the subs thread by mistake but I wanted to send my prayers and condolences to our friends in Japan and hope that they recover quickly from this horrible situation. Living in California has given me an appreciation and respect of earthquakes and I, as many of you have, felt the ground moving under me and it is truly a frightening experience. It brings out a special fear that is difficult to describe. The folks in Japan have my Prayers and I will be keeping in contact with my friends visiting and living there.
Grateful to be here,
D40
Growler
03-11-11, 12:43 PM
Another item (http://www.rrstar.com/updates/x904838918/Tsunami-swamps-Hawaii-beaches-brushes-West-Coast), regarding the tsunami.
In Guam, the waves broke two U.S. Navy submarines from their moorings, but tug boats corralled the subs and brought them back to their pier. No damage was reported to Navy ships in Hawaii.
HONOLULU (AP) - Tsunami waves swamped Hawaii beaches and brushed the U.S. western coast Friday but didn't immediately cause major damage after devastating Japan and sparking evacuations throughout the Pacific.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14231324
TLAM Strike
03-11-11, 12:46 PM
A Nuclear Power Plant at Fukushima is currently unable to cool two of its reactors due to damage from the earthquake. An emergency situation has been declared.
The USAF just flew in some extra coolant.
Growler
03-11-11, 01:01 PM
Japan's Earthquake activity for the last week, according to USGS.
RED indicates what's occurred in the last hour.
BLUE indicates what's occurred in the last 24 hours.
YELLOW indicates what's occurred in the last week.
Size of the square indicates magnitude of the quake.
Well - check the source - they're coming fast n' furious over there right now.
Source. (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/10/140_40.php)
Jimbuna
03-11-11, 01:07 PM
The devastation this has caused must be nigh on incalcuable...you'd expect the death toll to have been much higher so at least the low figure is one kind of positive.
My boy has just been in touch, his ship is in the area but they are moving further away for added safety.
Growler
03-11-11, 01:13 PM
My boy has just been in touch, his ship is in the area but they are moving further away for added safety.
Thank God. Being shipboard out there is probably one of the safest places to be, provided he's far enough off shore.
Nicolas
03-11-11, 01:40 PM
:o i can't believe it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehVHCSaUl9A
The USAF just flew in some extra coolant.
The coolant system is still broken though, they're having to release some radioactive vapour (presumably steam) to ease the pressure on the reactor. It's still a bit dicey but I'm confident the Japanese will get it under control, they are quite good at this...although their reactors do leak from time to time and this is an old one...but I think the chances of a meltdown are slim.
Here's an interesting fact, the power of the earthquake has tilted the Earth on its axis by 25cm. Gives you an idea of the raw power behind this event and reminds you we are but little fleas on a very big dog.
Platapus
03-11-11, 01:51 PM
:o i can't believe it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehVHCSaUl9A
It is like something out of a movie. But it ain't :cry:
All these people's lives destroyed. Everything they had, everything they saved. I honestly can't imagine how horrible that must be.
Kinda makes political bickering between people and countries seem a little petty. Let's hope we can work together to help. :yep:
Have we heard anything from China or Korea yet? With the shallow waters between them and Japan, I wonder if they are also getting hit?
Platapus
03-11-11, 01:52 PM
Here's an interesting fact, the power of the earthquake has tilted the Earth on its axis by 25cm.
really?? That's a lot! :o
Gotta a citation for that? This is something I would like to read about.
That's going to mess up some weather patterns. :nope:
Growler
03-11-11, 01:58 PM
One of the videos I just saw from Japan indicated a tsunami warning was issued for the Miyagi Prefecture of over 10m shortly after the quake.
10 f-ing meters.
Dear God.
really?? That's a lot! :o
Gotta a citation for that? This is something I would like to read about.
That's going to mess up some weather patterns. :nope:
http://www.earth-issues.com/2011/03/the-earths-axis-has-shifted-10-cm-2/
This is the only one I can find so far, it came up on the BBCs live text, as it's a preliminary result I should have given it a disclaimer that it could be revised, but even so if this is accurate then it is a greater shift than caused by the Sumatran quake, and that was a 9.1. There was also an interesting snippet on the BBC reporting that showed a seismograph comparison to scale of the Japanese quake with the Haiti quake and the Christchurch quake as recorded by the seismograph at the British Geological Society or Survey (can't recall off hand which) at Edinburgh. Both Haiti and Christchurch were small fairly flat lines...Japans quake was a complete jagged mess, indicating, I do believe, some 2.1cm of earth movement in Edinburgh because of the quake in Japan. So that's a very strong P wave.
In other news, North-west Japan (Niigata province) has just been rocked by a 6.6 earthquake, no reports of damage yet, but this quake is in a new location to the aftershocks from the earlier quake of which, as you can see in the link provided earlier, there have been dozens. No new tsunami warning has been given.
In regards to other countries, China and Taiwan haven't been seriously affected, Hawaii got some large waves but nothing serious and was well forewarned, the US coast has taken some large-ish waves but again, there was a lot of warning it was coming and the worse damage is some sunken boats. The main concern is some of the small islands to the south-east of Japan, I don't know how they've been affected, but I think some ships are on their way to the area to check.
Jimbuna
03-11-11, 02:35 PM
Thank God. Being shipboard out there is probably one of the safest places to be, provided he's far enough off shore.
That is exactly what he told his sister on the internet.
Elektroniikka-Asentaja
03-11-11, 02:35 PM
Here's an interesting fact, the power of the earthquake has tilted the Earth on its axis by 25cm.really?? That's a lot! :o
Gotta a citation for that? This is something I would like to read about.
That's going to mess up some weather patterns. :nope:
The last year's earthquakes in Chile and Haiti did pretty much the same, 12 cm after Chile if I remember right. It most likely fixes by the time but yea, it may mean a bit warmer temperatures in some places depending on the axis..
Only thing I can do for the Japanese is to not sink any boats this weekend.. Luckily Japan won't end up to same condition as Haiti as they have resources for cleaning the mess.
EDIT: WoOT, nice posting speed out here, while I typed this 2 other replies were made :D
One of the videos I just saw from Japan indicated a tsunami warning was issued for the Miyagi Prefecture of over 10m shortly after the quake.
10 f-ing meters.
Dear God.
Indeed, but to put this into perspective a little bit, when the Boxing Day tsunami hit Aceh, the waves were recorded at their highest of 30m in some areas. It was an average of 24m when the waves actually came ashore.
10m is still terrible though, particularly in such a populated area.
I do ponder, and this is a thought for another time really, whether a tsunami hitting a populated area loses its energy faster and travels less distance than one hitting a non-populated area, due to the amount of debris it picks up and the mass of it increasing the energy required to push the wave forward. Something for the boffins to analyse I dare say.
Gargamel
03-11-11, 02:41 PM
Apparently my brother in law just sailed from Okinawa yesterday, so he's ok.
One report I saw said they were about to start venting pressure in one of the reactors to the atmosphere to prevent a catastrophic explosion.
In other developments:
A passenger train was missing in Miyagi prefecture, and a ship carrying 100 people was swept away, police told Japanese media
Fire has engulfed swathes of coastland, including homes and buildings, at Kesennuma city in Miyagi
A major explosion hit a petrochemical plant in Sendai; further south a huge blaze swept through an oil refinery in Ichihara city, Chiba prefecture
Some 1,800 homes are reported to have been destroyed in the city of Minamisoma, Fukushima prefecture
A dam burst in north-eastern Fukushima prefecture, sweeping away homes, Kyodo news agency reports
At least 20 people were injured in Tokyo when the roof of a hall collapsed on to a graduation ceremony
Nearly 3,000 people have been ordered to evacuate from near the Fukushima power plant, where the cooling system in a reactor failed as it shut down automatically during the quake.
Pressure inside one of six boiling water reactors at the plant has risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal, said the country's nuclear safety agency.
Interesting pic showing the predicted wave height.
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/157/157750/15775001/jpg/active/0.jpg
Damn, that's a long old way.
Last I heard there is not just one but two trains missing, hopefully they'll have just derailed somewhere and the communications system is broken...but those waves were strong in both directions...
There were pictures earlier of the fire at Miyagi, the entire sea front was ablaze. Quite sobering.
A lot of people in Japan will have had a very sleepless night, it's about 4am there now, the sun will be coming up soon and then we'll get a better picture of the damage...and the death toll.
Last I heard there is not just one but two trains missing...
Two trains and a ship of some sort the last I heard. :-?
The ship was already mentioned in Gargemels post. :O:
But it's still missing. :88)
Growler
03-11-11, 03:33 PM
3 hurt, 1 feared dead in Crescent City, CA, as a result of tsunami.
Source. (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/03/crescent-city-harbor-destroyed-people-swept-into-sea.html)
Takeda Shingen
03-11-11, 04:10 PM
What a God-awful mess.
papa_smurf
03-11-11, 04:17 PM
I do ponder, and this is a thought for another time really, whether a tsunami hitting a populated area loses its energy faster and travels less distance than one hitting a non-populated area, due to the amount of debris it picks up and the mass of it increasing the energy required to push the wave forward. Something for the boffins to analyse I dare say.
Not sure, but you saw when the waves hit they kept up momentum regardless. Saw a rather large warehouse just disintegrate from the force of the waves.
Not sure, but you saw when the waves hit they kept up momentum regardless. Saw a rather large warehouse just disintegrate from the force of the waves.
Indeed, and that does puzzle me, then again there is a LOT of energy behind these waves. It also doesn't help that most of the pictures don't tell you how far inland they are being shot from. It'll all be published later when the clean-up is done, like the data from the 2004 tsunami and there'll be a lot of comparisons between the two I'd wager.
EDIT: The evacuation zone around the Fukushima Daichi NPP has been increased from two miles to six miles, and Tokyo Electric Power Company has said that some radiation may have already been released from the plant.
papa_smurf
03-11-11, 04:57 PM
From BBC news update:
2149: The Kyodo news agency is now citing a safety panel as saying that the radiation level inside one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is 1,000 times higher than normal.
^ That can't be good. :-?
Yah, I was just looking at that...that is...not good...the guys at the scene must be bloody desperate to get things back under control.
Catfish
03-11-11, 05:23 PM
It really is a catastrophy, the country lies in ruins, and not only at the coast. The quakes are said to continue for the next day, since due to the pressure release on one side, there are now tectonic movements on the north-west side.
The reactor's core seems to melt down right now - batteries exhausted and the Diesels seem not to work, anyway there is too few coolant with circulation pumps and pipes burst. Activity is 1000 times higher than usual in the turbine rooms, they try to release pressure to at least prevent a steam pressure explosion like in Tchernobyl. But then any coolant will be off with the pressure released, thus lowering the boiling point (?)
What really disturbs me a co-worker took a flight to Japan, two days ago. Hope she's alive.
O.T. : very cynical i know .. they declared a state of nuclear emergency for the "first time" ? :hmmm: Hrrrrrrm
Indeed, and that does puzzle me, then again there is a LOT of energy behind these waves. It also doesn't help that most of the pictures don't tell you how far inland they are being shot from. It'll all be published later when the clean-up is done, like the data from the 2004 tsunami and there'll be a lot of comparisons between the two I'd wager.
EDIT: The evacuation zone around the Fukushima Daichi NPP has been increased from two miles to six miles, and Tokyo Electric Power Company has said that some radiation may have already been released from the plant.
From what I've heard the waves were travelling at about 40km/h and reached up to 5km inland! From the mpas I've looked at the coastal plain around Sendai is pretty flat and only about 5-20m above sea level unil you get about 5km in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GukKvrBesM
I wasn't even year old when Chernobyl happened, but dang, that helo circling the nuke plant sure gives me the creeps. :doh:
BTW, the guy speaking on the background, is it just me or does he sound exactly like Nic Cage? :DL
Platapus
03-11-11, 05:36 PM
This seems to be a good resource on what is happening to the nuclear power plant
http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/emergency-declared-at-fukushima-npp.html
kiwi_2005
03-11-11, 06:18 PM
another vid of the tsunami from cbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPsHUlBp4PI
around 3:37 mark watch the guy on the bridge hes just standing there admiring the view while part of the bridge is taken away then 3:56 he finally runs to his car and takes off. Maybe he was just full of fear he couldn't move for some seconds.
shocking at the speed of the tsunami, didn't know it could moved so fast. :nope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GukKvrBesM
I wasn't even year old when Chernobyl happened, but dang, that helo circling the nuke plant sure gives me the creeps. :doh:
BTW, the guy speaking on the background, is it just me or does he sound exactly like Nic Cage? :DL
Ok that settles it, this is all just an elaborate film project by Roland Emmerich...I mean, he's hired Nicolas Cage to narrate it for goodness sake!!
Seriously though, that sure does remind me of the shot above the open reactor in Chernobyl that cost the helo pilot and the cameraman their lives. Just thankfully that reactor is still under concrete and lead. :yep:
EDIT: Now the cooling systems of three other reactors at Fukushima-Daini which is seven miles south of Daiichi have malfunctioned. :damn:
Gargamel
03-11-11, 07:30 PM
The talking heads on one of the major american news channels head some specialst on that was saying 1000x the radiation level is nothing to be worried about.
:rolleyes: :stare:
There's going to be a China syndrome here and they are saying it's ok?
If the levels are 1000 times higher than normal then how can that not be bad? :haha:
If the levels are 1000 times higher than normal then how can that not be bad? :haha:
http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/nothing_to_see_here.jpg
1000x normal radiation level is actually a small number. I'm too lazy to do the exact math here, but you would easily need the radiation level to be hundreds of thousands of times higher than normal background radiation that we all experience daily to even begin to get sick. It SOUNDS like a lot, but it's not.
Then you also have to keep in mind that this is confined to a very small space. 1000x in a closed control room, even assuming it escapes, would mean that anywhere outside that the numbers are even smaller.
Sounds like there is still quite a battle ahead to contain the radioactive steam though. It sounds like they may end up venting some of it out, which is of course a PR fiasco. Again, there is only a minute chance that it would pose a danger to anyone or anything before it flies away and dilutes in the atmosphere, but the prospect is scary. Still, I don't think we should sensationalized. The comparisons to Chernobyl are not terribly appropriate here since unless something goes so awry that the steam blows out the currently-airtight reactor container while the reactor melts down, there is zero chance of any actual nuclear material escaping. And for that to happen right now, they would have to screw up really, really badly. It doesn't sound like they will.
The Chernobyl comparisons aren't really appropriate here. On the other hand comparisons to Three Mile Island may be. But there is a big difference between escaping coolant and escaping reactor material.
[edit]
And I just saw on BBC that Tokyo Electric Power has now confirmed that they 'released a small amount of vapour' from one of the reactors to ease the pressure.
Lord_magerius
03-11-11, 08:29 PM
Just to let everyone know, Darkfish, a member here is over there. He was visiting Tokyo and the surrounding areas on holiday. Still no word from him yet. Let's just hope he's ok and let's think of the families who have lost people in this horrific disaster rather than turning it into another thread where petty squabbling and splitting hairs wins.
Gargamel
03-11-11, 08:31 PM
The Chernobyl comparisons aren't really appropriate here. On the other hand comparisons to Three Mile Island may be. But there is a big difference between escaping coolant and escaping reactor material.
Which, one would lead to the other if not brought under control.
Apparently five reactors are now in trouble (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42025882/ns/world_news-asiapacific/).
Gargamel
03-11-11, 09:41 PM
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/japancracksinground.jpg
Collection of articles on the Quake/Tsunami:
http://news.discovery.com/earth/wide-angle-japan-tsunami-110311.html
Including one why those guys that went surfing in Cali got really lucky.
This cant be good...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Explosion-heard-at-Japan-s-Fukushima-nuke-plant-report/H1-Article1-672494.aspx
BBC reporting this now as well. Not good. Like I already said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is a Three Mile Island and not a Chernobyl - I'm skeptical it's going really bad since they've had so much time since the shutdown, of course, but you never know...
[edit]
BBC says:
Japan's NHK TV showing before and after pictures of the Fukushima-Daiichi plant. It appears to show that the outer structure of one of four buildings at the plant is no longer there.
:o
Okay, this sounds bad. Fingers crossed even harder, looking for said pictures...
i cant find pictures of this either but i saw it on the NHK live streaming and yupp the 1st reactor hall has its walls blown out just the frame is standing:down:
well i found something
Edit: you can actualy see the shock wave at 0:47 O.o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4uogOEUrU
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4uogOEUrU)
From NHK:
The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says 2 radioactive substances, cesium and radioactive iodine, have been detected near the Number One reactor at the Fukushima Number One nuclear power station.
The agency says this indicates that some of the metal containers of uranium fuel may have started melting.
The substances are produced by fuel fission.
That is very, very... not good. These is reactor material, and these are what caused the massive contamination at Chernobyl. So this is already suggesting that the meltdown is uncontained... the question now is how much of the stuff got out.
From BBC:
0755: AFP says an explosion has been heard at the Fukushima-Daiichi plant, and says Japanese TV is showing a white cloud above the plant.
0810: Japanese media reports say that radioactivity has risen 20-fold outside the Fukushima-Daiichi plant.
0828: Japan's NHK TV showing before and after pictures of the Fukushima-Daiichi plant. It appears to show that the outer structure of one of four buildings at the plant is no longer there.
0847: NHK TV carrying advice to people to protect themselves against radiation. Experts say people should cover their mouths and noses with wet towels. Exposed skin should also be covered and people should wash after coming indoors. People should also avoid vegetables and other fresh food, as well as tap water, until authorities give the all-clear.
Again, very worrying timeline here.
[edit]
Latest, as per I-25's video:
0855: Some pictures have come through now on Japanese TV of that explosion. It looks very strong. You can see debris being blasted from the building, then a cloud of smoke mushrooming up from the plant.
This is terrible.
Tribesman
03-12-11, 03:57 AM
:cry:Bugger.
HunterICX
03-12-11, 04:27 AM
:( Talk about having 3 disasters at once, a Earthquake, Tsunami and a Nuclear Accident.
HunterICX
From what I'm reading now, it seems like this was a hydrogen explosion outside the reactor. So there is hope that the reactor core is still contained.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/2011-03-12_1800_NHK_S%C5%8Dg%C5%8D_channel_news_program_sc reen_shot.jpg
(big image, link: )
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Fukushima_I_NPP_1975.jpg
This is Wiki's aerial picture of the powerplant.
Now, looking at the video, it looks like what blew is the building that is on the far left in the aerial image. Now look to the far right, where you have a unit under construction - and it's very clear that the building which blew in the video indeed contains the reactor. So here's to hoping that the pressure vessel held and it was just steam or hydrogen outside of it blowing.
Saw this on another forum, dunno if its accurate at all but heh.
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg
Nope, in fact that map makes no sense :O:
Catfish
03-12-11, 05:03 AM
Seems there have been some small and one big explosion around 10 a.m. GMT (an hour ago), and the core is said to be melting right now - not good.
(big image, link: )
Now, looking at the video, it looks like what blew is the building that is on the far left in the aerial image. Now look to the far right, where you have a unit under construction - and it's very clear that the building which blew in the video indeed contains the reactor. So here's to hoping that the pressure vessel held and it was just steam or hydrogen outside of it blowing.
yup.. no doubt about it the one that blew was the #1 containment unit. on NHK i saw the full uncropped image and you can clearly see its the 1st one which is the one on the far right like you say in the wiki aerial pic
Hm, in fact if this was a hydrogen explosion, that might be an indication of a very bad scenario here...
The BBC's environment correspondent Roger Harrabin says he understands the blast at the nuclear plant may have been caused by a hydrogen explosion - also one of the possibilities laid out by Walt Patterson of Chatham House. "If nuclear fuel rods overheat and then come into contact with water, this produces a large amount of highly-flammable hydrogen gas which can then ignite," our correspondent says.
"This is starting to look a lot like Chernobyl" Walt Patterson, an associate fellow with Chatham House, has told the BBC after seeing pictures of the explosion at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant. "The nuclear agency says that they have detected caesium and iodine outside the unit, which certainly indicates fuel melting at the very least," he says. "Once you have melting fuel coming into contact with water, that would almost certainly be the cause of the explosion."
More from Walt Patterson of Chatham House. He says the presence of the radioactive caesium in the surrounding area does not pose a huge threat to public health in the immediate aftermath of the explosion. "What would be serious is if there was an explosion or fire that lifted this stuff high in the air, meaning it could get carried over a wide area."
papa_smurf
03-12-11, 05:45 AM
Latest from BBC newsfeed:
1040: Japanese authorities say troops found between 300 and 400 bodies in the coastal city of Rikuzentakata, which was devastated by the tsunami - NHK.
Yeah, and this is only a second of such finds with dozens of towns devastated...
While the reactor situation may not end up as terrible as some fear, I think the human cost of the tsunami will turn out to be pretty staggering. Not on the scale of the Indian Ocean tsunami, but since even as of today it seems like we know of over 1000 people dead and over 1000 missing, I could easily imagine the final toll being over 10,000 :nope:
Let's not forget that in the first couple of days of the Indian Ocean tsunami, we were hearing several thousand, then 10-20,000. Noone even imagined the final figure of over 200,000 - but that's what it was...
Even more detailed now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZYs8vnk1q0
Some amazing footage of the tsunami hitting the US West coast hours later.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/24498876/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/03/11/tsunami/index.html?hpt=T2)
papa_smurf
03-12-11, 08:20 AM
BBC news update: 1305: The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) says Japanese authorities are making preparations to distribute iodine to residents in the area of both the Fukushima nuclear plants. The IAEA has reiterated its offer of technical assistance to Japan, should the government request this.
Plans are in place to use seawater to try and cool the reactor down, which sounds really desperate as seawater could further damage the reactor. Sounds like they have given up any hope of this reactor working again once it has been cooled down.
EDIT:
1316: Noriyuki Shikata, deputy cabinet secretary for public relations for the Japanese prime minister (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/TWITTER%20PAGE) tweets: "Blast was caused by accumulated hydrogen combined with oxygen in the space between container and outer structure. No damage to container."
DarkFish
03-12-11, 09:07 AM
as some of you know, i'm in japan ATM on a study tour. luckily we left tokyo a week ago, and were safely in kyoto at the time of the earthquake/tsunami. didn't feel a thing and didn't see any devastation (yet?). we've just arrived in osaka, so far it there's not much unusual to see but we still have to visit the quarters closer to the sea...
it's a strange and uneasy feeling to see lots of places in tokyo where i walked only a week ago and have often got on pictures now completely devastated:-?
Growler
03-12-11, 09:33 AM
as some of you know, i'm in japan ATM on a study tour. luckily we left tokyo a week ago, and were safely in kyoto at the time of the earthquake/tsunami. didn't feel a thing and didn't see any devastation (yet?). we've just arrived in osaka, so far it there's not much unusual to see but we still have to visit the quarters closer to the sea...
it's a strange and uneasy feeling to see lots of places in tokyo where i walked only a week ago and have often got on pictures now completely devastated:-?
Damn, man, glad you're OK. A lot of folks here worried 'bout you - thanks for easing some minds! BE SAFE.
DarkFish
03-12-11, 10:05 AM
Damn, man, glad you're OK. A lot of folks here worried 'bout you - thanks for easing some minds! BE SAFE.i wanted to post here sooner but i couldnt find any free wifi. i'll keep you posted if there's anything special happening.
Saw this on another forum, dunno if its accurate at all but heh.
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpgNope, in fact that map makes no sense :O:that map is the exact same one they are constantly showing on the japanese tv. so it seems to be a genuine prediction...
Not even Chernobyl dumped that much out at that strength did it? The cloud I agree with...but I'm not so sure of the strength, 3000 rads...but then again I don't know what 3000 rads is in Rem because a dose of over 1500 Rem is invariably fatal. So, if it's a 1:1 Rad to Rem then that reactor will kill off all the population in that red area...which doesn't sound right.
Hopefully now they've decided that the reactor isn't salvagable they'll be able to try more options to bring the temperature down. Although the debris caused by the hydrogen explosion inside the reactor room is going to impede matters somewhat. It's been stated by both NHK and Kyodo that three people evacuated from a town near the NPP have been affected by radiation, so the stuff is out, it's just in what dosage. They say the reactor container is still intact, but to be honest I would be a little loathe to trust all what they are saying now because there's likely to be a lot they are not saying to avoid panic in both Japan and nations around Japan.
EDIT: Looking over Three Mile Island, I note the creation of a hydrogen bubble in the reactor which was removed by a plasma recombiner and also by venting into the atmosphere. Therefore, it would not be unfeasible to consider that the hydrogen buildup in the reactor room was caused by a venting of hydrogen from a bubble in the reactor. With aftershocks continuing all the time there would have been loose wires around which could have sparked and Boom.
Platapus
03-12-11, 11:41 AM
Saw this on another forum, dunno if its accurate at all but heh.
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg
Nope, in fact that map makes no sense :O:
This graphic is very suspect.
For one, it uses the term RAD which has been obsolete for many years. Radiation exposure is measured in grey, REM, or Sievert (for those SI folks)
750 Rad is equal to 7.5 grey which, in nuclear terminology, is a cubic buttload of scintillating radiation. Especially when considering that a gray is a measurement of absorbed radiation.
Trying to calculate the effects on humans is a lot more complicated than a simple equation of "X amount of radiation equals death". There are many factors that affect these calculations. But generally speaking, if someone is hit over their entire body with 5 gray of scintillating radiation, it is very bad news.
Generally speaking 1 Rad = 1 Rem. 200-1000 Rem will kill you after a while or make you very very sick. This graphic is predicting 750 Rads which generally speaking is equal to 750 REM. :nope:
So for the prediction to indicate clouds of 7.5 grey of radiation hitting the US about 7,000 miles away would indicate a source, using the Inverse Square Law, of a mega cubic buttload of radiation (sorry for the use of highly technical terms). Far too much for one, or even several power generating reactors going boom. These are not overly huge reactors.
You are just not going to get 7 grey to drift 7,000 miles unless you have one f-ing huge (technical term) radiation source.
I seriously question the data used to generate this graphic. It has every smell as being a media produced fear-invoking "let's make it seem even worse for the news factor" piece of junk science.
I hope that this is just a case where the news media misused the Aussie data and not that the Aussies actually produced this.
At best, this graphic is misleading, at worst it is fear mongering irresponsible science.
I would like to see the data.
Platapus
03-12-11, 11:42 AM
that map is the exact same one they are constantly showing on the japanese tv. so it seems to be a genuine prediction...
The accuracy of information is not determined by how many times it is repeated.
HunterICX
03-12-11, 11:45 AM
The accuracy of information is not determined by how many times it is repeated.
Or when shown on the news for that matter, sometimes it's just biased nonesense to spread these doom scenarios.
HunterICX
I'd wager that some news idiot has stuck the RAD on it. The actual graphic of radiation distribution and speed looks reasonable to me, after all Chernobyl left a real mess over Europe...however that was a Criticality excursion which I don't think the BWR will have. However if the housing is ruptured through a high pressure bubble or at the very very very very worse a China Syndrome, then the possibility of radiation spreading throughout the local area and, at worse into the local water level cannot be ruled out.
A China Syndrome is a real worse case scenario though, and indeed is just a theory. Most likely the reactor will be brought under control now that sea water is being used to cool it. It's been classed as a level four nuclear incident which isn't that high, Three Mile Island was a five. Sellafield/Windscale, Britains most unreliable and accident prone nuclear installation has had five level fours in its operational period, so while it's bad, it's not terrible.
That is, of course, providing the Japanese government is not doing a Soviet Union on us, and deliberately downplaying the seriousness of the situation to prevent a panic...
Watching videos of the tsunami from helos makes me wonder how many more will have been killed. It looks like an a-bomb hit. I'm stunned at how far inland it went. Seems like if you were in any normal structure within a few miles of the coast, you needed to get in the car and drive inland like hell from the moment the quake stopped or you'd be in very grave danger.
I hope most of the missing are simply incommunicado and not in that macerated mass of debris.
What's the prime donation site for this, red cross?
I believe that graphic originated on 2ch, the Japanese predecessor of 4chan :dead: The fact that it got picked up by the media doesn't say much...
Still no good answers here. The official response so far does plausibly explain most of it, except the presence of cesium and iodine. Those being detected are what bothers me - I can't figure out where they would come from except the reactor core itself. Recall that these comprised most of the Chernobyl fallout....
If they were releasing steam directly from the reactor itself would that contain trace elements of the internal elements of the reactor? I'm just pondering if they released steam and hydrogen from inside the reactor to prevent the buildup of a hydrogen bubble and it was the hydrogen released from the reactor that caused the explosion in the reactor hall.
It's either that or the hydrogen is coming out of the reactor through a breach of containment that is small enough not to leak devastating quantities of radiation but big enough to vent the atmospheric contents of the inside of the reactor?
Lot of grasping at straws here, but we'll find out more as this continues. The fact that there has not been any other major incident at the plant would indicate (to me anyway) that the seawater cooling is having some effect.
Gargamel
03-12-11, 02:08 PM
Video of the explosion itself:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219
Now, to my untrained eye, the explosion was 'shaped'. It clearly has an upward blast, with some lateral blasts. But not a lot of diagonal blast. My uneducated guess there is that it was an air-mix explosion, contained within the rectangular building. That would explain the shape and resultant destruction of the building. If it had been a core explosion, I would expect a more uniform shape? (Reactors are domes usually?). You can see the panels of the building flying off in specific directions.
TLAM Strike
03-12-11, 02:19 PM
So for the prediction to indicate clouds of 7.5 grey of radiation hitting the US about 7,000 miles away would indicate a source, using the Inverse Square Law, of a mega cubic buttload of radiation (sorry for the use of highly technical terms).
Don't worry I'm sure we are all familiar with MCB units around these parts... :03:
Growler
03-12-11, 02:30 PM
Watching videos of the tsunami from helos makes me wonder how many more will have been killed. It looks like an a-bomb hit. I'm stunned at how far inland it went. Seems like if you were in any normal structure within a few miles of the coast, you needed to get in the car and drive inland like hell from the moment the quake stopped or you'd be in very grave danger.
I hope most of the missing are simply incommunicado and not in that macerated mass of debris.
What's the prime donation site for this, red cross?
Looks like there are several agencies in the US and around the world trying to help. The American Red Cross is involved; others are, too. A quick Google search turns up a ton of links. I found this one via the Red Cross' site: LINK (https://american.redcross.org/site/Donation2?idb=0&5052.donation=form1&df_id=5052)
Gargamel
03-12-11, 02:44 PM
Looks like there are several agencies in the US and around the world trying to help. The American Red Cross is involved; others are, too. A quick Google search turns up a ton of links. I found this one via the Red Cross' site: LINK (https://american.redcross.org/site/Donation2?idb=0&5052.donation=form1&df_id=5052)
I would stick with the Red Cross, or another organization you KNOW is over there helping. Too many chances to get scammed.
papa_smurf
03-12-11, 05:22 PM
From Reuters an hour ago:
2123: Reuters: The emergency cooling system is no longer functioning at the Fukushima No. 3 reactor, an official from Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has told journalists.
"All the functions to keep cooling water levels in No. 3 reactor have failed at the Fukushima No. 1 plant," a spokesman for the operator said.
Now another reactors cooling system fails........:o
Madox58
03-12-11, 05:26 PM
My God! They are about to Nuke themselves!
Who would have imagined.
Gargamel
03-12-11, 05:29 PM
Anybody know the population density around these plants? They rural?
The good news is, the prevailing winds will take most of this to sea....
Platapus
03-12-11, 05:34 PM
I have not been able to find out if these specific reactors incorporated a dispersal design in the containment vessel in case of a fuel rod melt down. I hope so. The news is not reporting the important stuff, as usual they are focusing on the emotional stuff. :damn:
The Japanese take their nuclear safety pretty carefully.
A very bad thing is happening. :nope:
Skybird
03-12-11, 05:37 PM
I always wondered if it really is a good idea to have around 60 nuclear plants in the one place on earth that tectonically is more active than any other region the world. Four continental plates meet below Japan.
It was just a question of time, I think.
And then to build them so close to the ocean shoreline. Haven't they never had Tsunamis before...?
The storage problem with nuclear waste is still unsolved, and these events now shpow us that man's ingenuity is no match for Mother Nature if she decides to really let the dogs off the chain.
No matter how thick the concrete is that you build with.
Gargamel
03-12-11, 05:38 PM
The Japanese take their nuclear safety pretty carefully.
A very bad thing is happening. :nope:
Very bad indeed.
But I have to wonder, if that carefulness was just lip service. I doubt that though due to the nature of their culture, but you never know. I just wonder if there was something going on behind the scenes that we'll hear about years from now, that is allowing this to happen.
Then again, sometimes **** just happens, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.
I wonder how this will afect reactor designs in the fututre.... if this allows for a future for Nuclear reactors at all.
I grew up in the shadow of a nuc plant, and still live within 20 miles of it. They always said perry was super safe, but I'm having my doubts now. Course the worst quake we've ever had was like a 3 something...
Platapus
03-12-11, 05:49 PM
All valid points. :yep:
In my opinion, the future of nuclear reactors is to build more reactors but smaller reactors. Underground reactors are still a good idea as long as the design is correct. One of the advantages of underground reactors is that it is easier to design in external dispersement mechanisms in case of a meltdown.
I have even seen plans for underwater nuclear reactors which is not as crazy an idea as it first appears.
But in any case, smaller reactors, if they have an accident, will be easier to contain as opposed to the more common mega-reactors. Smaller reactors will be more expensive (as you need more), but I think the extra cost will be justified by the lowering of the risk in case of an accident.
Nuclear power is not the ultimate power source, but it can serve as an excellent transition power source until we can come up with something better.
Madox58
03-12-11, 05:51 PM
Yea, and if Perry goes?
I'm close enuff to worry myself!
(Didn't realize your that close to me Mate!)
Gargamel
03-12-11, 05:58 PM
Yea, and if Perry goes?
I'm close enuff to worry myself!
(Didn't realize your that close to me Mate!)
If perry goes, I die, a few weeks from now. My family goes that day.
I step back into my old medic role and do what I can till my time's up.
Of course... Niagara Falls will have a different glow at night now.....
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSFQZ3nJX_4tYA9IhtZLSwcOYAotMdh EAjZdwWQMsiOdO0BeY-
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMDraiIEI7DbVxxs5moZ8riAyh01Lrq iDegK7tDLxVUasz4mq2
And heck... I've had my loc posted over there (<----) since I've joined. :D
Madox58
03-12-11, 06:08 PM
Google Maps says your near Manila!
:har:
Japanese Government Confirms Meltdown
March 12, 2011 | 2148 GMT
Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said March 12 that the explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. This statement seemed somewhat at odds with Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano’s comments earlier March 12, in which he said “the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-japanese-government-confirms-meltdown?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110312%286%29&utm_content=readmore&elq=2e8dad0141d04006b9f992d0e3cf4458
ASWnut101
03-12-11, 07:42 PM
If they were releasing steam directly from the reactor itself would that contain trace elements of the internal elements of the reactor? I'm just pondering if they released steam and hydrogen from inside the reactor to prevent the buildup of a hydrogen bubble and it was the hydrogen released from the reactor that caused the explosion in the reactor hall.Yeah, when the reactor pressure vessel gets above about 1100 bar, they have to open the safety relief valve or the pressure vessel will rupture. The steam loop in the reactor does contain trace, highly reactive BUT very short-lived (< ~3 minutes) radionuclides, so that would explain why they're talking about distributing KI pills to the local area.
A full-scale radioactive release of material on the scale of Chernobyl is not going to happen as long as the reactor core is submerged in water and pressure is released when needed. As far as I know, the Fukushima plant is an older design without all the safety features of modern BWRs, hence they are pumping s-tons of seawater into the core. Modern BWRs are designed to absolutely deluge the core (we're talking millions of gallons per hour) with water via a gravity-fed system.
Now, to my untrained eye, the explosion was 'shaped'. It clearly has an upward blast, with some lateral blasts. But not a lot of diagonal blast. My uneducated guess there is that it was an air-mix explosion, contained within the rectangular building. That would explain the shape and resultant destruction of the building. If it had been a core explosion, I would expect a more uniform shape? (Reactors are domes usually?). You can see the panels of the building flying off in specific directions.Yeah, it was an explosion of the released hydrogen. From what I heard, it obliterated a building (the containment building, if I recall correctly), but the core is (as designed) unscathed inside the pressure vessel.
I always wondered if it really is a good idea to have around 60 nuclear plants in the one place on earth that tectonically is more active than any other region the world. Four continental plates meet below Japan.
It was just a question of time, I think. I agree, but from what I can remember, the Fukushima plant was designed to withstand a Magnitude 8.0 earthquake. This 8.9 quake was nearly ten times as powerful as that, so the fact that the plant still stands [EDIT: Well, most of it anyway] is quite amazing I think. Also, all of the other plants in the area have safely scrammed their reactors and are operating without faults, so I would wager that the problems at Fukushima reflect the age of it's design.
Also, having a NPP near a huge body of water such as the ocean is actually a rather good idea, as you have a nearly inexhaustible supply of emergency coolant (as we are witnessing now) on hand.
I wonder how this will afect reactor designs in the fututre.... if this allows for a future for Nuclear reactors at all.Probably will result in more redundant and reliable emergency cooling systems. Modern BWR designs are already nearly impossible to meltdown except under absurd circumstances (i.e. meteorite impact, direct nuclear strike, etc.) that would cause more problems than just a radiation leak.
Also, most supporting buildings and subsystems will be improved to help withstand large earthquakes and potential inundation by seawater.
Yeah, pebble bed reactors FTW.
Madox58
03-12-11, 09:14 PM
I'd suspect this whole event will cause the next excuse in raiseing Gas prices.
:nope:
Gargamel
03-12-11, 10:15 PM
Google Maps says your near Manila!
:har:
LOL it does, but if you take out the ' 's it fixes it.
Gargamel
03-12-11, 10:32 PM
Looks like they're losing a second one too.
A second nuclear reactor is experiencing serious problems at Japan's earthquake-damaged Fukushima power station in northern Japan, which was hit by a big explosion on Saturday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12724953
Gargamel
03-12-11, 10:48 PM
This is why I hate the US some days.... the ignorance of some people....
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/pearlharborjapan.jpg
Growler
03-12-11, 11:54 PM
The stupidity of small people in large herds cannot be underestimated.
just reading that make me want to punch someone in the face:damn:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
The same type of satellite before-and-after footage was used by ABC to show the damage from the Australian floods a couple of months ago, and is now sadly again very relevant here...
Gargamel
03-13-11, 01:17 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
The same type of satellite before-and-after footage was used by ABC to show the damage from the Australian floods a couple of months ago, and is now sadly again very relevant here...
Whoa... those are impressive.... and scary!
I can see why the nuc plant is having their issues now. Place may have been designed to take a quake, but I I don't think they designed it for a quake and a tsunami. Most of the outer support facilities seem to have washed away.
joegrundman
03-13-11, 01:19 AM
just reading that make me want to punch someone in the face:damn:
it's not nice, i grant you, but those are the filtered out facebook postings of maybe a hundred million people.
It's a tough fact, but out of 6 billion people and rising, a substantial percentage are going to be idiots, just as another percentage are going to be psychopaths and so on. It's just that in the modern world the half witted thoughts of the idiotic are there to be read by everyone if you can search for them.
Gargamel
03-13-11, 03:40 AM
Little smile for a serious topic.....
http://satwcomic.com/art/don-t-panic.jpg
XabbaRus
03-13-11, 05:01 AM
And that is why I don't do facebook or any other of the social retardation sites.
Also concerning the journalists reporting on the situation I would have thought that they would have some decent researchers.
I'll give the BBC their due they did get a couple of guys on who knew what they were on about and were very calm and thoughtful about the whole thing, but still some of the questions were stupid.
However what got me after all this was stated they were still mentioning "meltdown" "Chernobyl"
BTW my father in law is a nuclear specialist and he told my wife that it looked like a steam explosion and that they were venting too.
Skybird
03-13-11, 06:37 AM
The Japanese owning corporation of that reactor is Tepco, and one can read that since many years they have been involved in a long chain of scandals, lies, forged documents and lacking maintenance. The respectability of Japanese reactors' technical standards is in doubt. And they plan to build even more. :doh: As I said above: in a place with such an instabile tectonic basis like Japan, it is nogood idea to have nuclear reactors.
German experts said that German reactors, at least some of them, are even worse, allowing much faster processes leading to the core melting.
It is like it always have been and probably always will be: it is a highly risky technology that can only reduce risks, but not rule them out. And in case of disaster striking, it strikes really hard.
On another level: money. Japan has stellar debt levels of more than twice it'S GDP, and it's spociety is overaged with both the social and econom ic system somewhat stagnating. Now they need to financially invest into dealing with the aftermath of the Earthquake, the Tsunami, and the core meltdown(s), and maybe even a complete overhaul and rethinking about Japan's uncrtiical dependency on nuclear reactors.
Forget Japan dealing with its fincial debts. In the coming decades they will be unable to do so.
It is difficult to assess what the consequences will be for global economy, on this day I think only one thing is sure: they will be felt.
Catfish
03-13-11, 07:37 AM
Hello,
The Japanese owning corporation of that reactor is Tepco, and one can read that since many years they have been involved in a long chain of scandals, lies, forged documents and lacking maintenance.
Sounds familiar, like in Germany for sure :D
The private companies who built (by tax payer's money) and run the reactors are being "controlled" by the german TUV, a non-governmental company doing all kinds of tests - and now guess to which companies the TUV belongs to ? Right: the companies who own and run the reactors : RWE, Vattenfall, E.ON and EnBW.
They have such a bad record that they all try to change their name into a different one, to cloud their past.
And with the politicians having almost become obsolete while those companies can do what they want it is no wonder that the expertise has somehow wandered into the hands that own all the stuff.
Our politicians tell us there is no tectonic activity in Germany, especially along the "Rheintalgraben" :rotfl2:
But it is even worse, german nuclear plants are over 40 years old, inititially built for 20. Austrian plants of that type had to be wrecked before even starting to work, since the then-independent austrian control commission regarded them as highly unstable, using unsecure reactor vessels and lacking redundant backup systems for electricity and cooling.
I say it again, throw out all politicians and elect the company heads directly, saves a lot of money.
Greetings,
Catfish
This is why I hate the US some days.... the ignorance of some people....
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/pearlharborjapan.jpg
Just... wow... :nope:
Just... wow... :nope:
Wow that is... just unspeakable :nope: Even if they were joking it is beyond inappropriate.
Someone should remind them that the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and nagasaki were already 1000 times more than a enough punshiment for pearl harbour, does anyone remember any Japanese praising 9/11 in a similar fashion? I think not.
But don't go hating Americans for this - doing so just brings you down to the same level as those select scumbags above.
Most Americans are way smarter than this, sadly every country has its share of ignorant vermin.
People like this should be caged birth (no matter where they come from), as they dont qualify as human beings in my opinion.
joegrundman
03-13-11, 08:52 AM
move on guys. do you want a thread about a tragedy to devolve into a standard internet bitching thread?
papa_smurf
03-13-11, 09:02 AM
Pictures showing the city of Natori before and after....
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51655000/jpg/_51655076_natori_b4_aft_976.jpg
breadcatcher101
03-13-11, 09:14 AM
Don't hate USA because of the words of a few fools. Most of us are very caring people. I am ashamed of the postings of these airheads.
Jimbuna
03-13-11, 09:28 AM
The more graphical pictures I see the more I realise just how seriously bad the situation must be on the ground.
I tip my hat to the professional and effective post quake measures the authorities and people of japan are taking...other countries could learn a lot from them in these matters.
moose1am
03-13-11, 09:36 AM
The USAF just flew in some extra coolant.
Boric acid is used to capture the neutrons and to moderate the fission of U235 and Plutonium in a reactor vessel.
The normal coolant that they use is plain pure water. This Daiichi Unit 1 is a boiling water type reactor vessel and the cooling water is in direct contact with the core material and is also in contact with the turbines from what I understand.
This is much different from the Pressurize Water System used in the newer reactors. Those used two diffent closed cooling systems with heat exchange so as not to let the radiated cooling water come into contact with the turbines that generate the electricity.
moose1am
03-13-11, 09:39 AM
The coolant system is still broken though, they're having to release some radioactive vapour (presumably steam) to ease the pressure on the reactor. It's still a bit dicey but I'm confident the Japanese will get it under control, they are quite good at this...although their reactors do leak from time to time and this is an old one...but I think the chances of a meltdown are slim.
Here's an interesting fact, the power of the earthquake has tilted the Earth on its axis by 25cm. Gives you an idea of the raw power behind this event and reminds you we are but little fleas on a very big dog.
I feel more like a tiny microbe ridding on the back of that fea that's ridding on the back of that big dog. :) Especially at times like this. Japan has been moved by 8 ft from what I read.
I wonder if my gps is now going to be off by 8 ft all the time? :damn:
moose1am
03-13-11, 09:57 AM
Are you thinking that the radio active material is the actual U235 or it's byproducts that are contained inside the steel 5" thick pressure reactor vessel as compared to the radioactive water steam that's vented out of the same pressure vessel?
It's my understanding that the reactor at Chernobyl was destroyed and that uranium was released in that explosion.
In this Japan incident the Daiichi unit 1 being a boiling water type reactor is still intact and that they vented some steam pressure out of the steel reactor vessel but the vessel itself is intact. But the steel and concrete building that surrounds the reactor vessel was destroyed when the hydrogen in the steam entered the building and exploded when it came into contact with oxygen and a spark or ignition source of some kind. This blew the top 1/3 of the containment building and the roof off. The explosion also must have spread the radiative steam into the atmosphere where the wind blew it downwind and contaminated people in it's path. Not sure what the radiation levels were. How many millirads or rad were measured in the air.
But they are reporting that Cesium 137 and radio active iodine of some kind has been measured.
Bill Nye the Science guy was on CNN last night and said that the control rods inside the reactor are made of Cesium and that's where the cesium 137 came from. So that tells me that the reactor is melting the control rods as there is not enough water inside the reactor to cover the fuel rod and control rods. Therefore they are melting where the water is not covering them. Water seeks its own level and I must assume that as the water level drops the top of the core heats up and boils the water into steam which is vented and thus there is less water inside the pressure vessel and this goes on and on unless they get the pumps started up and pump cooling water into the pressure vessel to cool it down.
Since the reactor was shut down automatically the control rods should be dropped down into place and absorbing neutrons to slow down the fission chain reactions. But that it still take days for the uranium to cool down and without water to cool it off the uranium 235 will get so hot that it melts the control rod and could melt the steel containment vessel and allow the U235 to drop out of the floor of the pressure vessel. That would be the worst case meltdown. Right now we have a partial meltdown from what I understand.
But most all the radiative U235 is still contained inside the 5" thick steel pressure reactor vessel. But how hot is the U235 and has it reached a critical mass where it can't be cooled down to prevent it from melting the steel pressure vessel?
1000x normal radiation level is actually a small number. I'm too lazy to do the exact math here, but you would easily need the radiation level to be hundreds of thousands of times higher than normal background radiation that we all experience daily to even begin to get sick. It SOUNDS like a lot, but it's not.
Then you also have to keep in mind that this is confined to a very small space. 1000x in a closed control room, even assuming it escapes, would mean that anywhere outside that the numbers are even smaller.
Sounds like there is still quite a battle ahead to contain the radioactive steam though. It sounds like they may end up venting some of it out, which is of course a PR fiasco. Again, there is only a minute chance that it would pose a danger to anyone or anything before it flies away and dilutes in the atmosphere, but the prospect is scary. Still, I don't think we should sensationalized. The comparisons to Chernobyl are not terribly appropriate here since unless something goes so awry that the steam blows out the currently-airtight reactor container while the reactor melts down, there is zero chance of any actual nuclear material escaping. And for that to happen right now, they would have to screw up really, really badly. It doesn't sound like they will.
The Chernobyl comparisons aren't really appropriate here. On the other hand comparisons to Three Mile Island may be. But there is a big difference between escaping coolant and escaping reactor material.
[edit]
And I just saw on BBC that Tokyo Electric Power has now confirmed that they 'released a small amount of vapor' from one of the reactors to ease the pressure.
XabbaRus
03-13-11, 09:57 AM
I know this is going OT a little bit but it seems this kind of ignorance gets me.
Written by the environmental correspondent for the BBC
"And at Chernobyl - a reactor design regarded in the West as inherently unsafe, and which would not have been sanctioned in any non-Soviet bloc nation - the environmental impacts occurred through explosive release of material into the air, not from a melting reactor core."
I have highlighted the part I have issue with, and having read a lot about the design and design philosophy I disagree with it. He has provided no references to back his statement up. Does anyone here have anything that backs that up, ie specific statement.
moose1am
03-13-11, 10:04 AM
Saw this on another forum, dunno if its accurate at all but heh.
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg
Now that's scary. I didn't think about that. Good god man. Those are measurements in RAD not mill-rads or the other unit which is smaller than a mill rad. siemens or something
700 rad is terrible high radiation and can be very dangerous as that's a very high DOSE of radiation in a short period of time.
Let's hope they cool the reactor vessel down before it's melts down or explodes.
Takeda Shingen
03-13-11, 10:17 AM
Little smile for a serious topic.....
http://satwcomic.com/art/don-t-panic.jpg
I know you're just being silly, Gargamel. Still, although I am certainly not of the opinion that pattern predicted in the graph is anywhere remotely accurate, take Japan's band-aid on his face and have it spewing nuclear fallout and the people at SATW might understand the global community's concern.
breadcatcher101
03-13-11, 10:19 AM
This makes interesting reading as to the map posted earlier:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning
Further down it gives an example of exposure to 400 rads in one hour.
Penguin
03-13-11, 10:24 AM
The more graphical pictures I see the more I realise just how seriously bad the situation must be on the ground.
I tip my hat to the professional and effective post quake measures the authorities and people of japan are taking...other countries could learn a lot from them in these matters.
ditto,
there were so many images, where I thought: this event alone would usually be a headline in the news, now it's only one of many other desasters.
I have the biggest respect for the Japanese people, who seem to handle this catastrophes relatively calm and rational. Of course they are trained for situations like this, but I am deeply inpressed that there are no reports of homo homini lupus. I leave it to everyone's own imagination how a situation like this would be like in your own hometowns...
Also do the professional helpers seem to do an amazing job: imagine alone an evac of 200000 people under normal circumstances and now we are talking about massively destroyed infrastructure and a situation where the evac is only one of many other operations.
Platapus
03-13-11, 10:32 AM
Bill Nye the Science guy was on CNN last night and said that the control rods inside the reactor are made of Cesium and that's where the cesium 137 came from.
I was not aware that any reactor would use Cesium as a control rod material.
Cesium is a gamma emitter, not especially known for its neutron absorbing capabilities, is highly reactive (violently) to water and with oxygen (produces Hydrogen), and most importantly, melts at about 85 degrees F (at normal pressure). All of these would make it not a good material for a control rod. :nope:
Not to question Bill Nye, but I am. He is very entertaining but he still only has a BS in science. His honorary doctorate does not count.
137 Cesium is a common byproduct of the fission process.
The fact that CNN would use Bill Nye as a SME raises many concerns. :nope:
Now that's scary. I didn't think about that. Good god man. Those are measurements in RAD not mill-rads or the other unit which is smaller than a mill rad. siemens or something
700 rad is terrible high radiation and can be very dangerous as that's a very high DOSE of radiation in a short period of time.
Let's hope they cool the reactor vessel down before it's melts down or explodes.
It's scary but it's also a complete load of bull as we have already proven ;) Not unless every single NPP in Japan explodes will that amount of radiation go into the atmosphere. Apparently the Japanese version of 4chan (2chan) made that, so that gives some idea of its authenticity.
IIRC they use Boron in control rods, and graphite? I can't remember, it's been a while since I went up to the visitor centre at the local NPP which alas, post 9/11, was closed (the visitor centre not the NPP).
It does still seem like a pretty dodgy situation down there at the nuclear plants, but I think the chances of seeing a Chernobyl style incident are pretty low...however a Three Mile Island is perhaps possible.
The Plutonium fueled reactor that's in trouble is a bit of a concern though.
Platapus
03-13-11, 10:48 AM
I have highlighted the part I have issue with, and having read a lot about the design and design philosophy I disagree with it. He has provided no references to back his statement up. Does anyone here have anything that backs that up, ie specific statement.
Nope, I think you are right. This is a case of occidental bias. While the RBMK design did have a rather high void coefficient, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the design of the reactor.
The design of the support and safety systems could be questioned as well as the actions of the humans (which were the real problem).
But the design was good, albeit an old design.
move on guys. do you want a thread about a tragedy to devolve into a standard internet bitching thread?
No, but **** like that makes my bood boil - sorry.
ASWnut101
03-13-11, 12:20 PM
I was not aware that any reactor would use Cesium as a control rod material.
Cesium is a gamma emitter, not especially known for its neutron absorbing capabilities, is highly reactive (violently) to water and with oxygen (produces Hydrogen), and most importantly, melts at about 85 degrees F (at normal pressure). All of these would make it not a good material for a control rod. :nope:
Not to question Bill Nye, but I am. He is very entertaining but he still only has a BS in science. His honorary doctorate does not count.
137 Cesium is a common byproduct of the fission process.
The fact that CNN would use Bill Nye as a SME raises many concerns. :nope:
This. While Bill Nye makes some good children's shows, I wouldn't exactly rely on him. He's a science educator, not a scientist.
Now that's scary. I didn't think about that. Good god man. Those are measurements in RAD not mill-rads or the other unit which is smaller than a mill rad. siemens or something
700 rad is terrible high radiation and can be very dangerous as that's a very high DOSE of radiation in a short period of time.
Let's hope they cool the reactor vessel down before it's melts down or explodes.Yeah, like Obernon said, it's a load of bull. 700 RAD is damn near a 100% lethal dose. Half of North America is not going to die as a result of this.
krashkart
03-13-11, 12:26 PM
This is why I hate the US some days.... the ignorance of some people....
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/pearlharborjapan.jpg
Some people, not all of us. :yep:
Thankfully, most Americans have more self-respect than those asswipes do. :)
Respenus
03-13-11, 12:33 PM
/rant on/
I understand the inherent risks involved with nuclear energy, I understand the risks that are currently present in Japan, but what is going on right now in Germany (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,750545,00.html) for example, is downright unacceptable. Suddenly, due to the earthquakes in Japan, we must all rush and check our own power-plants back home, because they might spontaneously turn into molten nuclear waste. Put that together with the tree hugging hippies (a la, nature is our master crap) and nuclear energy, SAFELY used by many countries around the world with no accidents what so ever, has suddenly become the biggest danger to European polities. It's no the economy, not the social changes, not the inherent problems with dwindling oil supplies, no, suddenly they have, against what they themselves are claiming, political capital to draw upon. Reminds of the Austrians, every time some sneezes around Krško (our nuclear power plant), on the other side on the country, they come knocking on our doors, saying that we must shut it down.
:damn::damn::damn:
/Rant off/
Now that I've cooled off a bit, my best wishes go to the people of Japan and to their nuclear agency, hoping for the best that nothing serious happens. With the current state of mind in Europe and in the USA, it might just be the end of the nuclear future. I'm afraid what they'll say once fusion comes along. Something along the lines of the LHC destroying the world.
XabbaRus
03-13-11, 12:39 PM
I think we should measure the radiation with bananas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
Biggles
03-13-11, 01:10 PM
That must be one helluva quake to mess up Japan this much, considering how well prepared they are for these sorts of things in comparison to other countries in Asia. :o
I don't think we'll see the horrendous loss of life that we had in 2004 (Indonesia) or 2010 (Haiti) but it is regardless a terrible disaster, and I hope that the people affected get the help they need.
I'm trying to remember the last 9.0 earthquake and 10m high tsunami in Germany...can anyone help me with that?
One thing I heard earlier this morning, might have been on the World Service or on NHK, but the earthquake apparently might have caused the whole north-eastern coastal area of Japan to drop by about 70cm which made the tsunami defences even less able to stop the tsunami when it roared in. Not sure how much stock to put in that, but the fact that this has been bumped up to .1 below the Indonesian quake which caused the Boxing Day tsunami and rearranged the geography of the seabed in its epicentre, I'd be inclined to believe it.
Catfish
03-13-11, 01:36 PM
Four more nuclear plants at stake, one of it short to explosion. The fallout of the first is already poisoning areas further than a hundred kilometers around the explosion (where the evacuations took place). You cannot evacuate densely populated areas - Japan is one big populated area, everywhere.
Now in that second plant they use plutonium. You know the stuff that will kill you with the millionth part of a gram, and a theoretical spoonful enough to kill Great Britain if properly dispersed by wind (cold war study). Most will go down over the pacific if the current winds do not change.
The Tsunami is bad enough, but several (!) cores melting ?! How deep will a runaway reactor core get, through the surface ? China syndrome ?
I guess the heat and energy melting the ground below it will bleed away after some meters, if not the radiation level ?
Greetings,
Catfish
Gargamel
03-13-11, 01:38 PM
I know this is going OT a little bit but it seems this kind of ignorance gets me.
Written by the environmental correspondent for the BBC
"And at Chernobyl - a reactor design regarded in the West as inherently unsafe, and which would not have been sanctioned in any non-Soviet bloc nation - the environmental impacts occurred through explosive release of material into the air, not from a melting reactor core."
I have highlighted the part I have issue with, and having read a lot about the design and design philosophy I disagree with it. He has provided no references to back his statement up. Does anyone here have anything that backs that up, ie specific statement.
I don't have any specific citations I can quote, but from all the reading I've done over the years, That was the general consensus I believe. While the design may have been faulty, it was functional. It was operator error that destroyed it. But the inherit flaws in the design of the reactor and it's systems allowed the event to happen, not really the reactor itself.
A good friend of mine was living there when that happened, and know she has tumors on her knuckles that have to be removed every few years (non-cancerous). That, and general curiosity, led me to do some research.
Four more nuclear plants at stake, one of it short to explosion. The fallout of the first is already poisoning areas further than a hundred kilometers around the explosion (where the evacuations took place). You cannot evacuate densely populated areas - Japan is one big populated area, everywhere.
Now in that second plant they use plutonium. You know the stuff that will kill you with the millionth part of a gram, and a theoretical spoonful enough to kill Great Britain if properly dispersed by wind (cold war study). Most will go down over the pacific if the current winds do not change.
The Tsunami is bad enough, but several (!) cores melting ?! How deep will a runaway reactor core get, through the surface ? China syndrome ?
I guess the heat and energy melting the ground below it will bleed away after some meters, if not the radiation level ?
Greetings,
Catfish
China Syndrome is still theoretical, no-one has ever witnessed one. I hope that no-one ever does. Worse case scenario it goes down until it hits magma and then gets sucked into the earths core. You can kiss goodbye to farmland in the surrounding area though, for some distance, and no more water either because it'll get into the water table.
I don't think it'll get that far though, well, I hope not, but there's so much conflicting news and reports and theories coming out of Fukushima and the other NPPs at the moment that it's hard to know what to think.
The chaps around here who have more knowledge of NPPs than me...what are the chances of a steam explosion? :hmmm:
ASWnut101
03-13-11, 02:34 PM
The chaps around here who have more knowledge of NPPs than me...what are the chances of a steam explosion?
For Fukushima #1, as long as the safety relief valves continue functioning and they can keep flushing seawater through the core, an explosion can be averted. If they lose the core, though, I don't know if the pressure vessel can cope with the weakening effects of the heat.
As for Fukushima #3, I don't really know. I'm don't know too much about PWRs as opposed to BWRs, and I haven't heard much on what cooling systems still work. As with #1 however, the relief valves should hopefully release some of that pressure before the vessel ruptures.
Oh, 3 is a PWR? I thought it was a BWR like the others. It's a similar design setup IIRC so I imagine there would be safety valves like number one. Our local NPP is a PWR, well, B is...A was a Magnox but has been decommed now.
Before and after sat photos:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html
ASWnut101
03-13-11, 02:43 PM
Sorry my mistake. It's a BWR like the rest. Pretty much the same deal applies with #1 then.
Phew, I didn't know this until today, but one of my Japanese friends in colleagues was in actually Sendai when this hit :o She just got out of the city and reported that she can finally sleep for the first time in 3 days. That's a relief to be sure! A couple of other Japanese acquaintances of mine are helping out or have family members helping out, some with the direct business of looking through the rubble for survivors and bodies. That's tough - keep people like that in your thoughts please! For all the talk of disaster, you can't forget the rescue workers, medical workers, and also those power plant workers that are probably working far beyond their limits now.
My prediction earlier is sadly coming true - seems like everyone agrees that the death toll will be over 10,000, possibly greatly over 10,000.
ASWnut101
03-13-11, 03:08 PM
Looks like they're having troubles at Fukushima Plant 2 (Fukushima Daini). The "pressure suppression function" on the four reactors has been lost. No manual pressure release has taken place yet. An evacuation order for a ten kilometer radius from the plant has been issued.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031311-e.html
RickC Sniper
03-13-11, 03:11 PM
I am of the opinion that people are just plain stupid. Nuclear plants can be made and run safely, but you have to trust that the contractors built the plant without any cost-saving shortcuts and that the managers of the plant actually have enough brains to run the plant safely.
3 mile and Chernobyl were functional plants with enough safeguards in place to run safely but we are forced to trust plant managers to run them safely. It also requires complete honesty when a problem occurs so proper steps can be taken, or the safeguards are useless.
============
By design, the Chernobyl plant did not even have a containment building...like the building that exploded in Japan.
After the 3 Mile Island near disaster, they did add a partial containment building, but it's very design required large cranes to be used above the core, so a full containment building would have gotten in the way.
This, from a wiki source:
Initially, the RBMK design focused solely on accident prevention and mitigation, not on containment of severe accidents. However, since the Three Mile Island accident, RBMK design also includes a partial containment structure (not a full containment building) for dealing with emergencies. The pipes underneath the reactor are sealed inside leak-tight boxes containing a large amount of water. If these pipes leak or burst, the radioactive material is trapped by the water inside these boxes. However, RBMK reactors were designed to allow fuel rods to be changed without shutting down (as in the pressurized heavy water CANDU reactor), both for refueling and for plutonium production (for nuclear weapons). This required large cranes above the core. As the RBMK reactor is very tall (about 7 metres), the cost and difficulty of building a heavy containment structure prevented building of additional emergency containment structure for pipes on top of the reactor. In the Chernobyl accident, the pressure rose to levels high enough to blow the top off the reactor, breaking open these pipes in the process.
End Quote
The Chernobyl plants were known to be extremely unstable when running at low power settings, yet they decided to do an experiment to see how long the plant's turbines' inertia could produce power if the main electrical supply was cut. They deactivated automatic shutdown mechanisms to carry out the experiment. During the experiment the coolant system failed and that doomed the plant.
Poor design, yes, but human error or rather decisions caused the disaster at Chernobyl.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/03/three-mile-island-and-chernobyl-what-went-wrong-and-why-todays-reactors-are-safe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Containment
RickC Sniper
03-13-11, 03:19 PM
Looks like they're having troubles at Fukushima Plant 2 (Fukushima Daini). The "pressure suppression function" on the four reactors has been lost. No manual pressure release has taken place yet. An evacuation order for a ten kilometer radius from the plant has been issued.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031311-e.html
At least information is free-flowing. I have hope they will avert a major disaster in Japan regarding these plants. For some reason I have more faith in the Japanese to deal with this than I do of Russia or the USA.
Yeah, I agree that despite how serious things may be with the reactors, this panic-mongering some people are getting into over nuclear power is stupid and short-sighted. Unless something goes really, really wrong from this point on, I honestly see the situation with the reactors as proving the safety and reliability of their design under extreme circumstances, not vice versa... So far the Japanese have done a great job under overwhelming circumstances. The only thing that is stacking up against the reactors and their operators so far is the PR, in everything else I suspect they deserve high marks at the moment.
RickC Sniper
03-13-11, 03:48 PM
@CCIP..... well said.
Skybird
03-13-11, 04:15 PM
Yeah, I agree that despite how serious things may be with the reactors, this panic-mongering some people are getting into over nuclear power is stupid and short-sighted. Unless something goes really, really wrong from this point on, I honestly see the situation with the reactors as proving the safety and reliability of their design under extreme circumstances, not vice versa...
Welcome in our dimension, alien. Where do you come from, and what makes existence such a perfect state over there?
Cooling systems in at least four different sites along the coast, are currently reported to be critical or already having collapsed. And you call that "fear mongering...?
When Tchernobyl went up, Germany received varying doses of radioactivity, depending on the region. Worst it was in Bavaria, I seem to recall, and youstill can measure it - and it will stay that way for decades to come. In the first years, nothing seemed to have effected by it. But today, a quarter of a century later, we know that we have a statistically abnormal accumulation of deformaties in population groups having been exposed to this "low-level" radiation, and a statistically signficant raise in child mortality. Mind you - I'm talking about Germany, not Chernobyl and Russia.
We received just a small fraction of those doses Xabba's map is pointing out.
Some people will stay uncritical of nuclear technology as long as they do not grow a third arm. :doh: On the other ahnd, see it positive. If so far 4 (!) instabile powerplants with critical or already molten cores and cooling systems critical or already having failed, will not make nervous, than nothing ever will.
2103: Japan's Earthquake Research Committee estimates Friday's devastating earthquake forced the tectonic plate on which Japan sits to spring eastward by about 20m (66 feet), says NHK. The researchers also say the quake caused some areas, from Iwate to Fukushima prefectures, to sink up to about 75cm.
There's a thought to boggle the mind, the whole of Japan and its surrounding area moved east by twenty meters.
Highbury
03-13-11, 04:38 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
Just.. wow :cry:
XabbaRus
03-13-11, 04:41 PM
And Skybird you have just fallen straight into the scaremongering category.
There has been a partial meltdown in reactor 1, possibly in reactor 3.
The fact that they are still managing to pump in water and that there hasn't been anything worse than the first explosion I think shows how even in extreme circumstances you can manage them so they don't pose further danger.
As for the effects of radioactive fallout there is still debate on going about how much Chernobyl is responsible for these statistical anomalies in the fallout zone, especially those further down the fallout zone.
Schöneboom
03-13-11, 04:56 PM
Just when I thought I had some grasp of the enormity of the disaster, I saw these photos:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365546/Japan-earthquake-pictures-Devastation-rescue-workers-fight-fires-search-survivors.html
The Japanese half of my family are safe and sound, for now. A lot of clean-up to do, but at least they still have homes.
As for the Fukushima crisis, conflicting reports are to be expected. The country is in ruins; entire villages wiped out; millions are without power, food or water; transportation system is a shambles... the authorities will say whatever they must to forestall a mass panic. I don't expect to learn the whole truth about the radiation released for quite some time.
Welcome in our dimension, alien. Where do you come from, and what makes existence such a perfect state over there?
Cooling systems in at least four different sites along the coast, are currently reported to be critical or already having collapsed. And you call that "fear mongering...?
When Tchernobyl went up, Germany received varying doses of radioactivity, depending on the region. Worst it was in Bavaria, I seem to recall, and youstill can measure it - and it will stay that way for decades to come. In the first years, nothing seemed to have effected by it. But today, a quarter of a century later, we know that we have a statistically abnormal accumulation of deformaties in population groups having been exposed to this "low-level" radiation, and a statistically signficant raise in child mortality. Mind you - I'm talking about Germany, not Chernobyl and Russia.
Here's a factoid for you before you question my planetary origins any further: I was one of the children who received a radioactive dose from the Chernobyl disaster, and a stronger one than most in Germany. I've developed a couple of chronic health problems as a result, one that is bothering me even as we speak. That's a medical fact for you. Closer to the disaster, several relatives and family friends participated in the "liquidation" of Chernobyl, with some of them paying a terrible, terrible price, physically and psychologically. It cost some their lives in the end. I am WELL aware of the costs of radioactive disasters, sir.
This doesn't mean that, GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR, I have to beat the drum of "nuclear power fails! TERRIBLE IDEA! TERRIBLE RESPONSE! DOWN WITH NUC! SAVE THE PLANET! SAVE THE CHILDREN!" in an incident where there's no evidence of a serious leak and all the evidence of an extraordinary containment effort and appropriate measures to protect the population. I didn't suggest that things are in a perfect state, far from. But as I said, in the circumstances of the terrible disaster taking place now, so far I can only praise both the technology and the response. This is no Chernobyl. And if you want to wave the "affected children" card to garner some sort of pathos, as a child affected by Chernobyl I am offended by your comparison of this incident to Chernobyl. This comparison is inappropriate and equally unfair to victims of Chernobyl and those who are suffering from the ongoing incidents.
Facts may emerge that can change my perspective. But in the face of what I can gather now, I am prepared to be sympathetic to those who are working hard on this situation right now - they have my support. So far the most important aspects of safety have not been breached, and that doesn't deserve condemnation or discredit.
Just when I thought I had some grasp of the enormity of the disaster, I saw these photos:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365546/Japan-earthquake-pictures-Devastation-rescue-workers-fight-fires-search-survivors.html
The Japanese half of my family are safe and sound, for now. A lot of clean-up to do, but at least they still have homes.
As for the Fukushima crisis, conflicting reports are to be expected. The country is in ruins; entire villages wiped out; millions are without power, food or water; transportation system is a shambles... the authorities will say whatever they must to forestall a mass panic. I don't expect to learn the whole truth about the radiation released for quite some time.
Dammit...I just want to get on a plane and go there to help move stuff around. I'm no paramedic, soldier or anything special, I just want to help move stuff, I can left heavy stuff.
I'd probably just get in the way though....
Frustrating though...
Onkel Neal
03-13-11, 05:31 PM
Dammit...I just want to get on a plane and go there to help move stuff around. I'm no paramedic, soldier or anything special, I just want to help move stuff, I can left heavy stuff.
I'd probably just get in the way though....
Frustrating though...
I feel the same way. Wish I could do something.
To all, let's not turn this thread into an arguement, this is a national catastrophe.
Schöneboom
03-13-11, 05:48 PM
It is good to know that even if we cannot personally be there to lend a hand, we have there people helping there now (USN ships, UK's SAR team), with more on the way.
There is no place in this world that is immune to natural disaster, and one day, it could be our turn. So perhaps the thing to do is see how you can prepare now. I've been trained for the Emergency Response Team at my company (First Aid, etc.). Wherever you are, such training is surely available. Who knows, you may save a life one day.
krashkart
03-13-11, 06:52 PM
Dammit...I just want to get on a plane and go there to help move stuff around. I'm no paramedic, soldier or anything special, I just want to help move stuff, I can left heavy stuff.
I'd probably just get in the way though....
Frustrating though...
I feel the same way. Wish I could do something.
Ditto.
It is like it always have been and probably always will be: it is a highly risky technology that can only reduce risks, but not rule them out. And in case of disaster striking, it strikes really hard.
It does seem nuclear technology is inherently risky and no amount of tinkering can alter that. The state where I live has more that it's share of nuc plants and according to TV reports are similer to those Japanese types. I've never been an anti-nuc before, but I have strong doubts about them now.
They have been sold as "cheap energy" and "clean technology", but coal plants don't seem so bad to me now. Really, the nuclear plants have shown to be beset by problems; safety problems, cost problems, waste problems, decommisioning problems.....
Gargamel
03-13-11, 07:32 PM
They have been sold as "cheap energy" and "clean technology", but coal plants don't seem so bad to me now. Really, the nuclear plants have shown to be beset by problems; safety problems, cost problems, waste problems, decommisioning problems.....
Problem with coal is twofold. 1) It's dirty and a pollutant, and the release of the pollutants is required in the energy making process. Then there's the global warming argument to go with that, which we are not going to discuss here. 2) The cost vs output to procure the fuel is hugely inefficient when compared to nuclear.
Anyways.......
Here's a really good article on whats going on there now, and it answers some of our questions we've had: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12726628
I presume that you'll be avoiding cars and aircraft too? After all, when they go wrong, they go wrong in a big way, and I'd wager that more people have died since 1986 from aircraft and car accidents than from radiation.
I'll tell ye all a little story.
I moved up to Suffolk in 1992, I was eight at the time and we moved into a sleepy little village called Snape, but on the horizon was this great white semi-sphere which was slowly being built, I found out that this was a nuclear power station, but it looked nothing like the other one I'd seen at Dungeness. So, when I went to Middle School, I went into their library and looked up about nuclear power. That, was a blessing and a curse, because I read up about all the horrible things, I read about Chernobyl, about radiation poisoning and its effects and I became absolutely terrified at the thought of Sizewell blowing its top one day.
It was around that time that we went to the visitors centre at Sizewell, and I learnt more about nuclear reactors, I touched a core rod, I played with a Geiger counter, I operated a simulated nuclear power station (and broke it every damn time) and I saw how the reactor turns water into steam to power a generator (done through a boiling kettle turning a fan which powers a lightbulb, simple yet clever display). I also saw a pond nearby where nature was flourishing, kept preserved by the owners of the station, all in all it was a lovely little place. I went there a few times, and later I got to go on a school tour around the power station, I stood and looked over the reactor room from a walkway above it, I stood in the turbine room with earphone protectors because of the noise (naturally I removed them briefly to get an idea of the noise...it wasn't nearly as noisy as I thought but I guess constant exposure wouldn't be good), and as we entered and left we were all scanned at the turnstiles for radiation.
Of course, this was all rather bias, after all it was the power station doing the tour, but it did work, it made me more relaxed about it. Alas, post 9/11 the visitors centre is closed which is a shame but understandable.
Now, I'm not a big fan of nuclear power, I find nuclear waste to be terrible (although I do ponder if we couldn't drop it down a geothermical vent into the magma under the Earths crust...but then again I'm not so sure how long the radiation would last...whether that would just create radioactive lava which would then erupt and solidify into radioactive ground) and I find it annoying that it'll be another sixty years before they can start demolishing Sizewell A, but at the same time electricity prices are high enough as it is, and we were to shut down all our NPPs and go green then only the rich would be able to run anything with electricity, either that or we'd go down the South African route and start doing rolling blackouts. Either which way it wouldn't be much fun and to start getting near the amount of power we get from our NPPs we'd have to cover every hill with Windmills, every river with dams and every flat surface with solar panels and the expense of that...well...no government would do it. China is the worlds biggest exporter and user of green energy (believe it or not) but it's a fraction of what they get from their coal, oil and nuclear PPs.
Now, I'm not going to turn this thread into a pro and anti nuclear row, because I can understand both sides of the argument and indeed both are right, but it is beyond our control and if we spend our lives in fear about it, then that will rob us of enjoyment over an event which may never happen. If it does happen, then is the time to deal with it, but until then, what can you do? I live in the shadow of Sizewell B, I can see it from the beach here, I see it whenever I go to work, and yes, some days I do ponder...particularly when the news reports that the damn thing has been leaking again, but, I can't move because house prices are too high, and NBC suits are also too expensive, so if the balloon goes up...well...dang.
Anyway, like Neal says, let's not go down this road guys, ok? :yep:
Gargamel
03-13-11, 08:04 PM
If we are going to do a pro/anti nuc argument, spin it off into another thread.
RickC Sniper
03-13-11, 09:09 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12726628[/URL]
I learned something from this very good article.
"The explosion... wasn't a terribly important event," according to Malcolm Grimston from the Energy Policy and Management Group at Imperial College, London."The building was designed to fall outwards" - preventing damage to the thick steel containment vessel inside."
It explained to me why the damage to that containment building that blew up was so uniform.
Gargamel
03-13-11, 09:39 PM
It explained to me why the damage to that containment building that blew up was so uniform.
Apparently it happened again.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE_NUCLEAR_CRISIS?SITE=INEVA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
And from what I'm reading in this article... they are losing control of 4 more reactors???
Gargamel
03-13-11, 10:05 PM
TOKYO (AP) -- Japan's chief cabinet secretary says a hydrogen explosion has occurred at Unit 3 of Japan's stricken Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant. The blast was similar to an earlier one at a different unit of the facility.
Yukio Edano says people within a 12-mile (20-kilometer) radius were ordered inside following Monday's. AP journalists felt the explosion 30 miles (50 kilometers) away.
Edano says the reactor's inner containment vessel holding nuclear rods is intact, allaying some fears of the risk to the environment and public.
The No. 3 Unit reactor had been under emergency watch for a possible explosion as pressure built up there following a hydrogen blast Saturday in the facility's Unit 1.
More than 180,000 people have evacuated the area.
And now if everything else wasn't enough, a volcano has also erupted in southern Japan...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/14/3162909.htm
Gargamel
03-13-11, 10:51 PM
And now if everything as if else wasn't enough, a volcano has also erupted in southern Japan...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/14/3162909.htm
:damn::damn::damn:
Feuer Frei!
03-13-11, 11:15 PM
New Tsunami warning for Japan has now been cancelled.
Thank God for that.
SOURCE (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/new-tsunami-set-to-hit-japan-report/story-e6frfku0-1226021098967)
Gargamel
03-13-11, 11:21 PM
Japans evacuates space station control center
http://news.discovery.com/space/japans-evacuates-space-station-control-center-1.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1
Torplexed
03-14-11, 12:25 AM
Japans evacuates space station control center
Probably not a good idea in the long term. With all these staggeringly disastrous events happening to the Japanese Islands the only future may be in an off-world colony. :dead:
Castout
03-14-11, 01:32 AM
I do not know what to say the tsunami damage is massive. They lost their families there. And their homes and cars and boats.
And the earthquake damaged the several reactors. Pretty scary when you take into account Japan is arguably the most ready nation to brace with a large earthquake. There was simply no way to protect from tsunami.
Molon Labe
03-14-11, 02:18 AM
From 7th Fleet:
The U.S. 7th Fleet has temporarily repositioned its ships and aircraft away from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant after detecting low level contamination in the air and on its aircraft operating in the area.
The source of this airborne radioactivity is a radioactive plume released from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant. For perspective, the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship’s force personnel aboard the ship when it passed through the area was less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun.
The ship was operating at sea about 100 miles northeast of the power plant at the time.
Using sensitive instruments, precautionary measurements of three helicopter aircrews returning to USS Ronald Reagan after conducting disaster relief missions near Sendai identified low levels of radioactivity on 17 air crew members. The low level radioactivity was easily removed from affected personnel by washing with soap and water. They were subsequently surveyed, and no further contamination was detected.
As a precautionary measure, USS Ronald Reagan and other U.S. 7th Fleet ships conducting disaster response operations in the area have moved out of the downwind direction from the site to assess the situation and determine what appropriate mitigating actions are necessary.
We remain committed to our mission of providing assistance to the people of Japan.
Good move. I think the USN should be conscious of getting caught up in more than they bargained for. Although I bet you anything that the crew of a CVN knows better how to deal with the threat of reactor incidents than most of anyone :)
papa_smurf
03-14-11, 05:05 AM
More shocking images showing the before and after of the Tsunami:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
Skybird
03-14-11, 07:45 AM
Third core is left completely uncooled, and enters meltdown phase.
Turning winds in the coming 72 hours are expected to bring fallkout to Tokyo's 30+ million population.
These days, the belittling term "residual risk of nuclear technology" certainly gets a face. One can only hope it will never be belittled again.
Meanwhile, first assessements of the costs of the disasters have been published. For the damage directly caused by the first earthquake alone, numbers approach 40 billion Euro. By experience we know that floodiungs after earthquakes cause even greater damages and destructions than the earthquakes that caused them - these costs currently cannot be calculated. Nor do they have calculations on the damage done by the second follow-up quake. And the Nuclear disaster - currently is beyond estimation. In a country that is a small island and as densely populated like Japan, the contamination of huge areas maybe even cannot be expressed in numbers at all. The already present contamination seems tzo be greater and more widespread than the authoritiesa admit. If the winds turns into directions from south to west, then the real disaster will start.
German experts say the mixture of substances measured in the environment clearly indicate that the question whether or not the first two cores already have had meltdowns, is answered. What is to be seen in radioactive substances you do not get from simple blowout, thy say, but only from complete open meltdowns.
Residual risk.
Watch and learn what the term means.
TLAM Strike
03-14-11, 07:52 AM
Info from the NYT via ID
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/03/new-york-times-us-navy-helicopter.html
1406: Concerns about a possible radiation leak from the Fukushima plant have sparked a run on iodine tablets in Finland, AFP reports. The country's nuclear safety chiefs say there is no need for people there to be buying iodine
http://qpawn.beardedfool.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif
http://qpawn.beardedfool.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif
Indeed. Idiots. :nope:
Platapus
03-14-11, 09:28 AM
So, living in Virginia, I should stop encasing my house in plastic wrap and duct tapping the doors and windows?
HunterICX
03-14-11, 09:32 AM
^No, keep wrapping it up in lots of plastic...and don't forget to buy a suit like this:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3769/dd75020090422114112wall.jpg
*Assault rifle not included*
on a more serious note:
Damn, it's just heartbreaking to see these survivors going back to their town/village to find....nothing but rubble wondering if their family and friends made it out alive and if so where they are.
HunterICX
Platapus
03-14-11, 09:57 AM
I can't imagine (and honestly don't want to) what it must be like to lose everything you owned. Everything gone like that. :nope:
In some cases not only are their homes gone, but the land where their home used to be on is gone.
moose1am
03-14-11, 10:25 AM
This. While Bill Nye makes some good children's shows, I wouldn't exactly rely on him. He's a science educator, not a scientist.
Yeah, like Obernon said, it's a load of bull. 700 RAD is damn near a 100% lethal dose. Half of North America is not going to die as a result of this.
I think what he was suggesting is that if the Cesium 137 was getting outside the steel pressure vessel then that's suggestive of a meltdown of the core material and it's daughter materials. And if the core U235 is melting then the inside of the unit got pretty hot and probably melted other things inside the reactor vessel.
They are not telling us what the temperature readings are inside the pressure vessel but I am reading that temperatures in the 4000 to 5000 deg F range will occur if the reactor fuel melts down and is not covered by cooling water that's flowing though the reactor and carrying away the heat. And this can happen even if the graphite control rods are in place?
Can anyone tell us what the temperatures are inside these nuclear power plant reactor vessels when they lose all cooling water flow?
I was told that the water was so hot that it was dissassociating into pure hydrogen and pure oxygen and that the oxygen was attacking the metals inside the pressure vessel and oxidizing the metals at a very fast rate. This left excessive hydrogen bubbles inside the pressure vessel and this is where the hydrogen came from and why it had to be vented out. This only occurs when there is air bubbles inside the reactor vessel and no cooling water is flowing to carry away the heat. If the core U235 is uncovered then it overheats and melts the casing holding the fuel. I read that they use zicronium (SP?) to hold the fuel in the fuel rods?
But I did read today that the US Navy is finding radioactive in the air out at sea and has moved the US Ronald Reagan away from the coast of Japan to avoid the radiation plume.
ASWnut101
03-14-11, 10:41 AM
An update.
The Reactors at Fukushima plant 2 (Fukushima Daini) are now shutting down safely. Cooling operations have been restored at units 1 and 2, unit 3 has been successfully shut down, and unit 4 is still being restored to begin cooling.
As for Fukushima No. 1 (Fukushima Dai-ichi), things aren't going well. Following the hydrogen explosion in containment building #3, a radiation level of 20μSv/h (Microsiverts per hour) was detected outside of the plant (at 11:44am local time). For comparison, 20μSv/h is approximately equivalent to the radiation absorbed by eating about 200 bananas every hour. :)
At 12:30pm local time, the radiation level had dropped to 4μSv/h. Radiation levels were also measured 10km away at Fukushima plant 2, and are about 4μSv/h there as well.
Plans are now being considered to vent containment building number 2 in an effort to prevent any more explosions at the facility.
No word on the progress of cooling operations at Fukushima plant 1.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031405-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031404-e.html
Platapus
03-14-11, 10:45 AM
That's actually pretty good news. Looks like the Japanese are working this problem rather well. :yeah:
Onkel Neal
03-14-11, 10:52 AM
If anyone can handle an event like this, the Japanese can.
AVGWarhawk
03-14-11, 11:03 AM
If anyone can handle an event like this, the Japanese can.
I would have to agree 100%.
Platapus
03-14-11, 11:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBccBKQ0oLU&feature=player_embedded
I still can't conceive of the power of the tsunami wave. This looks like special effects out of a movie, but this is real.
:nope:
Pay attention to about 0:30 where the force of that water makes a good sized boat go under a bridge.. the hard way. :nope:
I am sure that Japan will survive, but it won't look like it before this disaster.
papa_smurf
03-14-11, 12:02 PM
From BBC News site:
Technicians are battling to stabilise a third reactor at a quake-stricken Japanese nuclear plant, which has been rocked by a second blast in three days.
The fuel rods inside reactor 2 at the Fukushima Daiichi plant have been fully exposed on two separate occasions, raising fears of a meltdown.
Sea water is being pumped into the reactor to try to prevent overheating.
Sounds like its getting desperate.
Bilge_Rat
03-14-11, 12:21 PM
Also watching with interest the situation in japan, but..
If we are going to do a pro/anti nuc argument, spin it off into another thread.
:sign_yeah:
We all know there are problems with Nuclear, but that should be in a separate discussion.
btw, there no such thing as a problem free energy source, they all have issues.
Type941
03-14-11, 12:22 PM
Please read this (reposting from page earlier buried in links) - if you really worried it's like Chernobyl and why it isn't anywhere near that.
http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/
IN short - there is a lot of nonsense in Media and there are tons of links if you want to understand this. The problem isn't reactor, it's the aftermath of tsunami, load on the power network, etc, etc but reactor will be fine and is built to withstand this. If it melts, it melts and plant is facked but water will be decontaminated, and in general, they are just going through the book now, one after the other and if they can't cool the rods (to below 2200C) they'll just have fuel melt and than be cooled off in the catchment area which is bad of course.
On a side note, it's bizzare how world works - US nuked Japan in 45 and 55 years Japan is asking it for help from contaminating the region.
Gargamel
03-14-11, 12:42 PM
Please read this (reposting from page earlier buried in links) - if you really worried it's like Chernobyl and why it isn't anywhere near that.
http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/
IN short - there is a lot of nonsense in Media and there are tons of links if you want to understand this. The problem isn't reactor, it's the aftermath of tsunami, load on the power network, etc, etc but reactor will be fine and is built to withstand this. If it melts, it melts and plant is facked but water will be decontaminated, and in general, they are just going through the book now, one after the other and if they can't cool the rods (to below 2200C) they'll just have fuel melt and than be cooled off in the catchment area which is bad of course.
On a side note, it's bizzare how world works - US nuked Japan in 45 and 55 years Japan is asking it for help from contaminating the region.
Started reading that article and stopped when I got to here:
There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity.
First, significant is a very subjective term, then he goes and uses *not*, which is a very absolute term. I stopped reading there.
That sentence is like saying "The Titanic will *never* sink". Which they did. And it did.
That sentence is implying he has omnipotence to the events going on.
I have trouble putting stock into technical documents that use such absolutes in their predictors of future events. Not saying that the rest of the article is wrong, but that it's just an opinion piece, and that one from an English teacher and his friend, who read some tech docs and rewrote them as an op-ed.
Growler
03-14-11, 12:43 PM
Just in case anyone's had doubts about Japan being ankle deep in alligators:
Volcano goes. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-japan-quake-volcano-20110314,0,2486939.story)
440-some-odd earthquakes (1.0 or greater) in the last week on Japan's coast. (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/10/140_40.php)
"Geologically stable" is not a term I would apply to that area at the moment.
Platapus
03-14-11, 01:22 PM
sometimes these "small" aftershocks can cause a lot of damage too. :nope:
A rather long but very good breakdown of what is going on with the reator
By Josef Oehmen:
I am writing this text (Mar 12) to give you some peace of mind regarding some of the troubles in Japan, that is the safety of Japan’s nuclear reactors. Up front, the situation is serious, but under control. And this text is long! But you will know more about nuclear power plants after reading it than all journalists on this planet put together.
There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity.
By “significant” I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on – say – a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation.
I have been reading every news release on the incident since the earthquake. There has not been one single (!) report that was accurate and free of errors (and part of that problem is also a weakness in the Japanese crisis communication). By “not free of errors” I do not refer to tendentious anti-nuclear journalism – that is quite normal these days. By “not free of errors” I mean blatant errors regarding physics and natural law, as well as gross misinterpretation of facts, due to an obvious lack of fundamental and basic understanding of the way nuclear reactors are build and operated. I have read a 3 page report on CNN where every single paragraph contained an error.
We will have to cover some fundamentals, before we get into what is going on.
(link til grafik af reaktor) (http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h384/reactor1/BoilingWaterReactorDesign_3.jpg)
Construction of the Fukushima nuclear power plants
The plants at Fukushima are so called Boiling Water Reactors, or BWR for short. Boiling Water Reactors are similar to a pressure cooker. The nuclear fuel heats water, the water boils and creates steam, the steam then drives turbines that create the electricity, and the steam is then cooled and condensed back to water, and the water send back to be heated by the nuclear fuel. The pressure cooker operates at about 250 °C.
The nuclear fuel is uranium oxide. Uranium oxide is a ceramic with a very high melting point of about 3000 °C. The fuel is manufactured in pellets (think little cylinders the size of Lego bricks). Those pieces are then put into a long tube made of Zircaloy with a melting point of 2200 °C, and sealed tight. The assembly is called a fuel rod. These fuel rods are then put together to form larger packages, and a number of these packages are then put into the reactor. All these packages together are referred to as “the core”.
The Zircaloy casing is the first containment. It separates the radioactive fuel from the rest of the world.
The core is then placed in the “pressure vessels”. That is the pressure cooker we talked about before. The pressure vessels is the second containment. This is one sturdy piece of a pot, designed to safely contain the core for temperatures several hundred °C. That covers the scenarios where cooling can be restored at some point.
The entire “hardware” of the nuclear reactor – the pressure vessel and all pipes, pumps, coolant (water) reserves, are then encased in the third containment. The third containment is a hermetically (air tight) sealed, very thick bubble of the strongest steel. The third containment is designed, built and tested for one single purpose: To contain, indefinitely, a complete core meltdown. For that purpose, a large and thick concrete basin is cast under the pressure vessel (the second containment), which is filled with graphite, all inside the third containment. This is the so-called “core catcher”. If the core melts and the pressure vessel bursts (and eventually melts), it will catch the molten fuel and everything else. It is built in such a way that the nuclear fuel will be spread out, so it can cool down.
This third containment is then surrounded by the reactor building. The reactor building is an outer shell that is supposed to keep the weather out, but nothing in. (this is the part that was damaged in the explosion, but more to that later).
Fundamentals of nuclear reactions
The uranium fuel generates heat by nuclear fission. Big uranium atoms are split into smaller atoms. That generates heat plus neutrons (one of the particles that forms an atom). When the neutron hits another uranium atom, that splits, generating more neutrons and so on. That is called the nuclear chain reaction.
Now, just packing a lot of fuel rods next to each other would quickly lead to overheating and after about 45 minutes to a melting of the fuel rods. It is worth mentioning at this point that the nuclear fuel in a reactor can *never* cause a nuclear explosion the type of a nuclear bomb. Building a nuclear bomb is actually quite difficult (ask Iran). In Chernobyl, the explosion was caused by excessive pressure buildup, hydrogen explosion and rupture of all containments, propelling molten core material into the environment (a “dirty bomb”). Why that did not and will not happen in Japan, further below.
In order to control the nuclear chain reaction, the reactor operators use so-called “control rods”. The control rods absorb the neutrons and kill the chain reaction instantaneously. A nuclear reactor is built in such a way, that when operating normally, you take out all the control rods. The coolant water then takes away the heat (and converts it into steam and electricity) at the same rate as the core produces it. And you have a lot of leeway around the standard operating point of 250°C.
The challenge is that after inserting the rods and stopping the chain reaction, the core still keeps producing heat. The uranium “stopped” the chain reaction. But a number of intermediate radioactive elements are created by the uranium during its fission process, most notably Cesium and Iodine isotopes, i.e. radioactive versions of these elements that will eventually split up into smaller atoms and not be radioactive anymore. Those elements keep decaying and producing heat. Because they are not regenerated any longer from the uranium (the uranium stopped decaying after the control rods were put in), they get less and less, and so the core cools down over a matter of days, until those intermediate radioactive elements are used up.
This residual heat is causing the headaches right now.
So the first “type” of radioactive material is the uranium in the fuel rods, plus the intermediate radioactive elements that the uranium splits into, also inside the fuel rod (Cesium and Iodine).
There is a second type of radioactive material created, outside the fuel rods. The big main difference up front: Those radioactive materials have a very short half-life, that means that they decay very fast and split into non-radioactive materials. By fast I mean seconds. So if these radioactive materials are released into the environment, yes, radioactivity was released, but no, it is not dangerous, at all. Why? By the time you spelled “R-A-D-I-O-N-U-C-L-I-D-E”, they will be harmless, because they will have split up into non radioactive elements. Those radioactive elements are N-16, the radioactive isotope (or version) of nitrogen (air). The others are noble gases such as Xenon. But where do they come from? When the uranium splits, it generates a neutron (see above). Most of these neutrons will hit other uranium atoms and keep the nuclear chain reaction going. But some will leave the fuel rod and hit the water molecules, or the air that is in the water. Then, a non-radioactive element can “capture” the neutron. It becomes radioactive. As described above, it will quickly (seconds) get rid again of the neutron to return to its former beautiful self.
This second “type” of radiation is very important when we talk about the radioactivity being released into the environment later on.
(link til grafik (http://i.imgur.com/Oj4kg.png))
What happened at Fukushima
I will try to summarize the main facts. The earthquake that hit Japan was 7 times more powerful than the worst earthquake the nuclear power plant was built for (the Richter scale works logarithmically; the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 7 times, not 0.7). So the first hooray for Japanese engineering, everything held up.
When the earthquake hit with 8.9, the nuclear reactors all went into automatic shutdown. Within seconds after the earthquake started, the control rods had been inserted into the core and nuclear chain reaction of the uranium stopped. Now, the cooling system has to carry away the residual heat. The residual heat load is about 3% of the heat load under normal operating conditions.
The earthquake destroyed the external power supply of the nuclear reactor. That is one of the most serious accidents for a nuclear power plant, and accordingly, a “plant black out” receives a lot of attention when designing backup systems. The power is needed to keep the coolant pumps working. Since the power plant had been shut down, it cannot produce any electricity by itself any more.
Things were going well for an hour. One set of multiple sets of emergency Diesel power generators kicked in and provided the electricity that was needed. Then the Tsunami came, much bigger than people had expected when building the power plant (see above, factor 7). The tsunami took out all multiple sets of backup Diesel generators.
When designing a nuclear power plant, engineers follow a philosophy called “Defense of Depth”. That means that you first build everything to withstand the worst catastrophe you can imagine, and then design the plant in such a way that it can still handle one system failure (that you thought could never happen) after the other. A tsunami taking out all backup power in one swift strike is such a scenario. The last line of defense is putting everything into the third containment (see above), that will keep everything, whatever the mess, control rods in our out, core molten or not, inside the reactor.
When the diesel generators were gone, the reactor operators switched to emergency battery power. The batteries were designed as one of the backups to the backups, to provide power for cooling the core for 8 hours. And they did.
Within the 8 hours, another power source had to be found and connected to the power plant. The power grid was down due to the earthquake. The diesel generators were destroyed by the tsunami. So mobile diesel generators were trucked in.
This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.
At this point the plant operators begin to follow emergency procedures that are in place for a “loss of cooling event”. It is again a step along the “Depth of Defense” lines. The power to the cooling systems should never have failed completely, but it did, so they “retreat” to the next line of defense. All of this, however shocking it seems to us, is part of the day-to-day training you go through as an operator, right through to managing a core meltdown.
It was at this stage that people started to talk about core meltdown. Because at the end of the day, if cooling cannot be restored, the core will eventually melt (after hours or days), and the last line of defense, the core catcher and third containment, would come into play.
But the goal at this stage was to manage the core while it was heating up, and ensure that the first containment (the Zircaloy tubes that contains the nuclear fuel), as well as the second containment (our pressure cooker) remain intact and operational for as long as possible, to give the engineers time to fix the cooling systems.
Because cooling the core is such a big deal, the reactor has a number of cooling systems, each in multiple versions (the reactor water cleanup system, the decay heat removal, the reactor core isolating cooling, the standby liquid cooling system, and the emergency core cooling system). Which one failed when or did not fail is not clear at this point in time.
So imagine our pressure cooker on the stove, heat on low, but on. The operators use whatever cooling system capacity they have to get rid of as much heat as possible, but the pressure starts building up. The priority now is to maintain integrity of the first containment (keep temperature of the fuel rods below 2200°C), as well as the second containment, the pressure cooker. In order to maintain integrity of the pressure cooker (the second containment), the pressure has to be released from time to time. Because the ability to do that in an emergency is so important, the reactor has 11 pressure release valves. The operators now started venting steam from time to time to control the pressure. The temperature at this stage was about 550°C.
This is when the reports about “radiation leakage” starting coming in. I believe I explained above why venting the steam is theoretically the same as releasing radiation into the environment, but why it was and is not dangerous. The radioactive nitrogen as well as the noble gases do not pose a threat to human health.
(link til billede af før og efter eksplosionen i Japan (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/2011-03-12_1800_NHK_S%C5%8Dg%C5%8D_channel_news_program_sc reen_shot.jpg))
At some stage during this venting, the explosion occurred. The explosion took place outside of the third containment (our “last line of defense”), and the reactor building. Remember that the reactor building has no function in keeping the radioactivity contained. It is not entirely clear yet what has happened, but this is the likely scenario: The operators decided to vent the steam from the pressure vessel not directly into the environment, but into the space between the third containment and the reactor building (to give the radioactivity in the steam more time to subside). The problem is that at the high temperatures that the core had reached at this stage, water molecules can “disassociate” into oxygen and hydrogen – an explosive mixture. And it did explode, outside the third containment, damaging the reactor building around. It was that sort of explosion, but inside the pressure vessel (because it was badly designed and not managed properly by the operators) that lead to the explosion of Chernobyl. This was never a risk at Fukushima. The problem of hydrogen-oxygen formation is one of the biggies when you design a power plant (if you are not Soviet, that is), so the reactor is build and operated in a way it cannot happen inside the containment. It happened outside, which was not intended but a possible scenario and OK, because it did not pose a risk for the containment.
So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed. Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200 °C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail.
And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay – radioactive Cesium and Iodine – started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000 °C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.
It seems this was the “go signal” for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.
The water used in the cooling system is very clean, demineralized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no effect whatsoever on the core – it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated (i.e. slightly radioactive) water.
But Plan A had failed – cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable – so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:
In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.
The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is “liquid control rod”. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.
The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.
Now, where does that leave us?
* The plant is safe now and will stay safe.
* Japan is looking at an INES Level 4 Accident: Nuclear accident with local consequences. That is bad for the company that owns the plant, but not for anyone else.
* Some radiation was released when the pressure vessel was vented. All radioactive isotopes from the activated steam have gone (decayed). A very small amount of Cesium was released, as well as Iodine. If you were sitting on top of the plants’ chimney when they were venting, you should probably give up smoking to return to your former life expectancy. The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again.
* There was some limited damage to the first containment. That means that some amounts of radioactive Cesium and Iodine will also be released into the cooling water, but no Uranium or other nasty stuff (the Uranium oxide does not “dissolve” in the water). There are facilities for treating the cooling water inside the third containment. The radioactive Cesium and Iodine will be removed there and eventually stored as radioactive waste in terminal storage.
* The seawater used as cooling water will be activated to some degree. Because the control rods are fully inserted, the Uranium chain reaction is not happening. That means the “main” nuclear reaction is not happening, thus not contributing to the activation. The intermediate radioactive materials (Cesium and Iodine) are also almost gone at this stage, because the Uranium decay was stopped a long time ago. This further reduces the activation. The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.
* The seawater will then be replaced over time with the “normal” cooling water
* The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.
* Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.
* The safety systems on all Japanese plants will be upgraded to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami (or worse)
* I believe the most significant problem will be a prolonged power shortage. About half of Japan’s nuclear reactors will probably have to be inspected, reducing the nation’s power generating capacity by 15%. This will probably be covered by running gas power plants that are usually only used for peak loads to cover some of the base load as well. That will increase your electricity bill, as well as lead to potential power shortages during peak demand, in Japan.
Source:
http://ing.dk/artikel/117344-nedsmeltning-i-japan-baggrund-og-forklaring
This is by FAR the best and most accurate explanation I have seen so far...
And if people think we will all die in a nuclear meltdown of the fuel, should read about the Three Mile Island incident. 1/3 of the core melted....
Its good reading in any event, because its rather close to whats going on now in Japan
Gargamel
03-14-11, 02:25 PM
McBeck, I stand by my eralier comments (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1619310&postcount=215), as his use of absolutes and opinions put me off. Ie *will not*, "I believe"
There is no way he can know these things aren't going to happen. This is nothing more than an OP-ed. He's an english teacher, and his buddy is a "smart guy", yet they claim to have exact knowledge of the design of these reactors. His uncle or something happens to be a nuc physicist, so that is his source. Well let the source write this article.
A very well written, informational op-ed at that though. His data and technical references may be very accurate, but the way he presents his conclusions are highly suspect in my mind.
It honestly sounds like nothing more than anti-spin to offset the fear mongers out there.
I have full faith that the Japanese will be able to control this, and the design of the systems will win out. But I am not going around spouting off these beliefs and opinions as mantra.
Everything we read about this scenario in the next few weeks needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as there will always be an agenda behind it. Be it either to calm the public or take a step to abolishing nuc plants, there will always be spin.
All that said, it is one of the clearest pieces on the subject we have been able to see so far, and maybe that is why it's getting the attention that it is. Something akin to the "Any port in storm" Theory.
My friend who lives in Haranomachi in Minamisouma Fukushima prefecture
He is survive !!!
Today I can contact with him at last.
Now he evacuate to Fukushima city , by car.
He says cause of lack of information,
he could not know whats happen to his hometown and situation now.
papa_smurf
03-14-11, 04:19 PM
Amongst all this tragedy, there is the remarkable survival of Hiromitsu Shinkawa, 60, who was rescued after been washed 10 miles out to sea clinging to the roof of his house.
http://955glo.com/files/2011/03/hosted2.ap_.org_.jpg
Another example of the power of this earthquake: Japan is now 13ft nearer to the US.
Catfish
03-14-11, 04:43 PM
This Mr Joseph Oehmen is writing up so much bullsh!t that i do not even know where to begin with.
The situation is beyond the point he is trying to describe, the reactor system is different, the four reactors have alrady a core melt (where does he think the hydrogen comes from?), how does he think he wants to "control" a molten mixed-up mass at the core developing more heat by the minute and only being able to "control" this mess in cooling the inner containment or vessel with Bor-mixed seawater?! Which b.t.w. does not work since the pumps are not up to the developing inner steam pressure anymore. Imagine what happens when the inner containment blows up due to the seawater they pumped in, and which has turned to overheated steam ?
They can pump seawater in and let overheated steam escape, but for the next 20,000 years ?
This was just done to prevent further melting, and even if it works what does he want to do in the end ? Cool this with seawater for the next 20,000 years ? How do you get access to the inner core to "control" things or dismantle this mess anytime soon ?
In one point he is right, Australia will probably not be harmed within the next two weeks :88)
Greetings,
Catfish
Skybird
03-14-11, 04:54 PM
This Mr Joseph Oehmen is writing up so much bullsh!t that i do not even know where to begin with.
The situation is beyond the point he is trying to describe, the reactor system is different, the four reactors have alrady a core melt (where does he think the hydrogen comes from?), how does he think he wants to "control" a molten mixed-up mass at the core developing more heat by the minute and only being able to "control" this mess in cooling the inner containment or vessel with Bor-mixed seawater?! Which b.t.w. does not work since the pumps are not up to the developing inner steam pressure anymore. Imagine what happens when the inner containment blows up due to the seawater they pumped in, and which has turned to overheated steam ?
They can pump seawater in and let overheated steam escape, but for the next 20,000 years ?
This was just done to prevent further melting, and even if it works what does he want to do in the end ? Cool this with seawater for the next 20,000 years ? How do you get access to the inner core to "control" things or dismantle this mess anytime soon ?
In one point he is right, Australia will probably not be harmed within the next two weeks :88)
Greetings,
Catfish
Where there is steam, there is pressure. Go figure. This is a very risky improvisation for short terms only. If it goes wrong, then the pollution will be immense. That they risk this, tells how desperate they are. Core 3 is said to hold plutonium.
XabbaRus
03-14-11, 05:24 PM
Oh boy.
Yes there will be steam and pressure would have to be released, but come on not for 20,000 years
Chernobyl had full melt down with molten fuel rods sitting under the reactor making a solidified mass in the end, called the elephant's foot.
Funny it isn't making any heat now.
The main thing is that the containment systems maintain integrity and the information at the moment suggests that they are holding.
Gargamel
03-14-11, 06:00 PM
Just started reading this article... but it seems to offer up a counter point (confirming or refuting) items mentioned in the article above.
And from a much more renowned source (still doesn't mean accuracy, just a higher level of confidence)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12732015
It's a Q&A format about whats going on.
Skybird
03-14-11, 06:24 PM
Just in: Fukushima core 2 reported to have exploded.
Gargamel
03-14-11, 06:25 PM
Just in: Fukushima core 2 reported to have exploded.
Core or building?
Building is "ok".... core is bad.....
Madox58
03-14-11, 06:27 PM
Aside from the Nuke situation?
Seems from the videos much of what was wiped out appeared to be
Farms and Grow areas?
How will this affect not only thier food sources, but the prices we are going to see on produce here in the U.S.A.?
:hmmm:
As much as I really feel for them?
I can hardly afford the rise in fuel costs let alone have my cost of food start going up.
Skybird
03-14-11, 06:29 PM
Core or building?
Building is "ok".... core is bad.....
Unclear (I wanted to refer to the number of the block), but the nuclear elements have been reported to have been dry since long time now. The government said eartlier this day the inner security hull had already been damaged.
Nach den Reaktoren 1 und 3 des Atomkraftwerks Fukushima-Daiichi ist nun auch der zweite Reaktor explodiert. Dies gab Japans Regierung bekannt.
Der Reaktor 2 der japanischen Atomanlage Fukushima-Daiichi ist nach Medienberichten explodiert. Das berichteten Medien unter Berufung auf die Regierung in Tokio. Zuvor hatte ein Regierungssprecher bekannt gegeben, dass ein Teil des Schutzmantels des Reaktors offenbar beschädigt worden sei
Government also said earlier this day it is very likely that the core in 2 may melt.
BBC has this update
2316: Kyodo now says that the suppression pool may have been damaged at reactor 2
EDIT:
2333: More details on the reported blast at Fukushima's reactor 2. The explosion is feared to have damaged the reactor's pressure-suppression system, Kyodo says. It adds that "radiation tops legal limit" after the explosion.
Jimbuna
03-14-11, 06:50 PM
Government officials admitted that it was “highly likely” the fuel rods in three separate reactors had started to melt despite repeated efforts to cool them with sea water
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8382139/Japan-crisis-third-explosion-raises-spectre-of-nuclear-nightmare.html
Skybird
03-14-11, 06:52 PM
Japanese news agency Kyudo reports - by quoting government sources - that both the outer building and inner hull of the core have been damaged. Radioactivity is rocketing upwards. Heavily contaminated water seems to leak in huge quantities.
I also read earlier this day about what happens when the core melts and starts to burn its way out of the reactor and into the ground. Sooner or later it hits the ground water level - and then it depends at the speed and volume per time hitting the water - it could somewhat explode and erupt a huge cloud of cont minated steam which then is a major concern for everybody anf far beyond the imminent location, or it could leave it to intoxicating the ground water, move the nuclear poison over large distances and bringing it into the biological life cycle, and into man's food chain.
Again, at least on of the three already burning reactors is filled with plutonium. Half-life 24000 years.
Gargamel
03-14-11, 06:56 PM
I also read earlier this day about what happens when the core melts and starts to burn its way out of the reactor and into the ground. Sooner or later it hits the ground water level - and then it depends at the speed and volume per time hitting the water - it could somewhat explode and erupt a huge cloud of cont minated steam which then is a major concern for everybody anf far beyond the imminent location, or it could leave it to intoxicating the ground water, move the nuclear poison over large distances and bringing it into the biological life cycle, and into man's food chain.
Again, at least on of the three already burning reactors is filled with plutonium. Half-life 24000 years.
That's the China Syndrome that is being referred to. It means the core would burn it's way through the earth to China. Unrealistic, but the name stuck.
Side note of that.... the scientific possibilities of a hole dug through to the core would be interesting. Until of course the hole fills with magma and erupts in a new Volcano....
Respenus
03-14-11, 06:58 PM
I also read earlier this day about what happens when the core melts and starts to burn its way out of the reactor and into the ground. Sooner or later it hits the ground water level /.../
Yes, the molten core hitting the ground water would be a major disaster, that is, only, if and when the additional containment, designed to capture the molten core and spread it in order to coll it down doesn't do its job. Here's hoping that it does. Otherwise...it all depends on the winds.
Still doesn't mean that nuclear energy isn't mostly safe. Yes there are problems, as with anything else. Generation IV and generation II reactors (the ones currently in question) cannot compare in terms of safety. I wished someone explained to the public that there is additional research and progress being done in the field and that in the end, it all depends on the personnel and on the area the reactor is situated in.
Ok, now it looks like things are getting bad. This could be sliding into a more serious situation. However...before I sound Red Alert, one has to bear in mind that this is reactor number 2 which hasn't exploded yet, so we've had explosions (presumably hydrogen based) at reactors 1, 2 and 3.
The fact that the explosion happened near the pressure vessel and it might have damaged the pressure suppression system is serious because it could, if they are unable to vent the reactor, result in a steam explosion which could damage the reactor vessel itself and expose the reactor to the atmosphere which would be quite catastrophic.
and then it depends at the speed and volume per time hitting the water - it could somewhat explode and erupt a huge cloud of cont minated steam which then is a major concern for everybody anf far beyond the imminent location,
I recall, a few years back, seeing a documentary on Chernobyl, and the same thing very nearly happened there. There was a valve though which I think operated the coolant system or something like that, but it was underwater. So two...very brave...VERY brave divers went down there and turned the valve, they prevented a full China syndrome but died down there.
Skybird
03-14-11, 07:08 PM
Still doesn't mean that nuclear energy isn't mostly safe. Yes there are problems, as with anything else. Generation IV and generation II reactors (the ones currently in question) cannot compare in terms of safety.
A moderator on German TV today quoted a woman that called the studio and said something like this, and I think she put it very cleverly, and hit the nail on top:
balancing on a balance beam that is 10 cm wide, is not a great act. Most people can do it, there are rubber mats left and right, and the height is such that nobody will feel dizzy, probably. If you need, you jump off and land safely.
Now walk the same beam with the balance beam being laid out between the roofs of two 300m high skyscrapers.
ASWnut101
03-14-11, 07:10 PM
For those of you who may be wondering, the thing that broke was the object labeled "condenser" in this (over-simplified) diagram:
http://www.euronuclear.org/info/encyclopedia/images/bwr.jpg
The water in the condenser is the same water that passes through the reactor core and is thus quite full of radioactive contaminants. Now, there's some good news and some bad news about this...
The good news is that since it's a liquid line break, the release will be (relatively) easy to control. Simply damming the flood of water in the containment building will keep the worst stuff from leaving the plant. There will have been a steam leak as well, but the contaminants in it are less concentrated than in the water. Also, most of the contaminants are of the short-lived, highly active type, so radiation levels will quickly drop outside of the plant, ceteris paribus.
The bad news is that what little water was in the core is now outside of the core, so those fuel rods are going to start cooking unless they can fix that leak. And if the damage is severe, there's little hope of that happening. Methinks some emergency containment procedures will be implemented soon. :yep:
The mediocre news is that the majority of the steam inside of the pressure vessel is now likely outside of it, so the risk of a Chernobyl-style explosion is less likely than before.
Side note of that.... the scientific possibilities of a hole dug through to the core would be interesting. Until of course the hole fills with magma and erupts in a new Volcano.... :haha: Yeah, I think they'd have bigger fish to fry then.
EDIT: Getting conflicting reports of whether it was the condenser line or the suppression line. Suppression line is...bad. Better hope those relief valves keep working or you've got an explosion on your hands.
Guess that can't be good... atleast not for the peeps working there.:hmmm:
0052: Details are now emberging about radiation levels after the blast at Fukushima's reactor 2 at 0610 local time (2110 GMT Monday). Tokyo Electric officials say that one hour of exposure at the nuclear plant would be equivalent to eight times at what a person might experience naturally during the year.
The Beeb seem a little confused at what time code they're using and indeed how many Japanese PMs there are...
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2626/bbcatitagain.jpg
Feuer Frei!
03-14-11, 11:27 PM
For those who don't know, like me, here is a good link to how a Nuclear Reactor shuts down and what happens in a meltdown:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?hp
Onkel Neal
03-15-11, 01:18 AM
Hey buddy, glad to hear you are ok, and your friends. I hope things in your area are better than the news we are seeing.
Neal
My friend who lives in Haranomachi in Minamisouma Fukushima prefecture
He is survive !!!
Today I can contact with him at last.
Now he evacuate to Fukushima city , by car.
He says cause of lack of information,
he could not know whats happen to his hometown and situation now.
The bad news just keeps coming....now the spent fuel storage is causing concerns
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15fuel.xml
Freiwillige
03-15-11, 01:26 AM
The photo's, the news, the videos just keep getting worse. I have my fingers crossed for that great nation of Japan.
Some of the videos coming out now just made my jaw hit the floor.
Gargamel
03-15-11, 01:44 AM
The bad news just keeps coming....now the spent fuel storage is causing concerns
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15fuel.xml
That's not good.
The reactors may hold up, but the leftovers, placed in a glorified swimming pool, will mess it all up.
It's like God is some street magician, look at my right hand over her look over here over here over here... then blammo my left explodes!
Gargamel
03-15-11, 02:15 AM
Nice front page Neal. :salute:
DarkFish
03-15-11, 03:33 AM
Hey buddy, glad to hear you are ok, and your friends. I hope things in your area are better than the news we are seeing.
NealDon't forget Japan is a large country ;) I've been in Japan for the last 3 weeks (was in Kyoto at the time of the earthquake, didn't feel it) and I haven't seen any destruction anywhere. Probably like 90% of Japan is experiencing no problems caused by the earthquake/tsunami. At least the area around Kyoto/Osaka is nothing like the news you are seeing.
But indeed, good to hear you and your friend are OK zaza!:up:
Jimbuna
03-15-11, 05:44 AM
What I'm seeing/learning from BBC and Sky News is that they have 24 hours at most to avoid one helluva nuclear disaster....fingers crossed for a successful and safe outcome.
papa_smurf
03-15-11, 05:44 AM
From BBC's Envrioment correspondent, Richard Black:
It appears that for the first time, the containment system around one of the Fukushima Daiichi reactors has been breached.
Officials have referred to a possible crack in the suppression chamber of reactor 2 - a large doughnut-shaped structure below the reactor housing. That would allow steam, containing radioactive substances, to escape continuously.
This is the most likely source of the high radioactivity readings seen near the site. Another possible source is the fire in reactor 4 building - believed to have started when a pool storing old fuel rods dried up.
The readings at the site rose beyond safe limits - 400 millisieverts per hour (mSv/hr), when the average person's exposure is 3mSv in a year.
A key question is whether this is just a transient spike, which might be expected if number 2 is the source, or whether the high levels are sustained.
In the meantime, the key task for workers at the plant remains to get enough water into the reactors - and, now, into the spent fuel pools - with the poor resources at their disposal.
Lets hope a major nuclear disaster is avioded, as this latest incident in the spent fuel rods pool is really going to stretch already limited resources.
(Would the fuel rods in the spent rods pool actually burn through if they were not kept cooled?)
Skybird
03-15-11, 06:10 AM
Nice front page Neal. :salute:
^2
I'm happy that my old teacher and mentor does not witness this, he was Japanese and already has had a troubled life even without this.
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