Japanese Tsunami

[Skybird]

Reported: there was or still is a fire in Fukushima's reactor 4.

4 of 6 in big troubles now. Radiation rising.

Edit: or have they gotten the numbering wrong and it is the one of last night?

[Freiwillige]

The spent fuel rods pool is a non issue from what I read because it would take a long time to boil away (Weeks) and they could refill it with fire hoses if needed, That is (If) the pool is not damaged.

[keltos01]

Rubenandthejets is near Tokyo Bay.

I guess everyone will be affected one way or another, this is a small country.. :(

I offer my sympathies to the japanese people.

keltos

[Skybird]

Rubenandthejets is near Tokyo Bay.


He better starts running. Radiation at Fukushima is now 100 times as high as normal, and wind has turned south. In Tokyo, radiation 7 times higher than normal has been measured by German experts. The Japanese Tepco company says radiation is "increasing dramatically", they are being reported to have warned the government of meltdown being imminent and unlikely to be prevented in time.

I fear they are loosing it.

[Freiwillige]

I just read that the president of Japan ordered Tepco not to remove anymore workers from the plant. I am afraid that this is spiraling out of control quickly.

On a positive note, I noticed there is really no looting or rioting or worse. Kudo's to the Japanese people for keeping their wits about them in this emergency situation.

[Platapus]

On a positive note, I noticed there is really no looting or rioting or worse. Kudo's to the Japanese people for keeping their wits about them in this emergency situation.

Yeah, if this happened in the US, there would be rampant looting and probably vandalism. :nope:

[Penguin]

Looks like the situation is still on the edge...
Good to hear that our members DarkFish, zaza and their friends are well off!

Yeah, if this happened in the US, there would be rampant looting and probably vandalism. :nope:

Same here. You could hardly see any guards at the japanese supermarkets and people wait in line for hours. :o I already said that I have a deep rescpet for such a cool behaviour: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1618590&postcount=149

Here people would loot the markets and steal the important stuff first - like alcohol and cigs....:DL

[Platapus]

It is because Japan has a more collectivist culture than the US.

[Penguin]

:hmmm: certainly true for the culture, but I have the impression that as a rule of thumb for the US or Europe the people are more helpful in areas where people live more individual = in sparse populated areas and/or by people who value individuality.

And cultural norms are just one aspect. The "fight or flight" instinct is rooted deep inside us, even training and/or experience don't always overcome it.

Back to topic: Has anybody read any serious estimates how much heat is still inside the Fukushima reactors or much effect the cooling efforts had so far?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

From what I've seen and read in the news a fourth reactor at the Fukushima plant as exploded and the use of sea water doesn't seem to be helping every much if at all. It would seem that a total meltdown will happen sooner or later, I hope it doesn't happen at all. So far four out of six reactors have suffered explosions according to the BBC and CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12749444

[Platapus]

Pretty messed up when you have aftershocks that are 6.1 :nope:

[ASWnut101]

Small update.

The situation at Fukushima plant 2 (Fukushima Daini) has been stabilized, all four reactors have reached cold shutdown state.

Fukushima plant 1 (Fukushima Dai-ichi) is falling apart. All four containment buildings have been damaged or destroyed. Reactor two has lost essentially all possible cooling systems and is venting steam into the atmosphere. Unless a miracle occurs, they're going to lose that reactor and have a meltdown. :yep:
No update on the status of the other three reactors.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031507-e.html

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031504-e.html


About the radiation, as some seem to be freaking out about it...

As I've said before, the steam contains short-lived, highly active radionuclides. The steam will produce large amounts of radiation, but only for a very short time (a few minutes). Cities outside of the evacuation area are under little threat of being enveloped by a radioactive cloud of death.

The radiation levels that are "7 times above normal" in Tokyo are nothing to worry about. It's still an extremely small dose. You'd put yourself at an immensely higher risk of injury or death by trying to flee the city than by simply staying put.



Also, because the steam is venting at a large rate from reactor two, there is little threat of an explosive meltdown. There's kind of a dilemma from this, though. You could either 1) continue pumping water on the core to try and cool it, but at the expense of having large amounts of steam escape into the air, or 2) stop pumping water on it and just let it melt, which would have it's own host of problems. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle this one.

[Oberon]

At least they're all able to vent, I was worried when the explosion in reactor two happened that the pressure release valve would be damaged, that rules out a steam explosion at least.

[Platapus]

And a meltdown and vessel compromise, while not a good thing, may be the only way to disperse the molten fuel to reduce it to non-criticality.

We are beyond the point of hoping for a happy ending. Now we need to focus on the least sucky bad ending. :yep:

The question is: What's underneath? And were these reactors constructed with a post compromise dispersement capability?

Anyway, mega kudos to ASWnut101 for the comments on radiation fear mongering. It is very easy for the public to be misinformed by misunderstanding what is being reported.

And way too easy for the news media to deliberately mislead the public in the interest of news revenue. Why a news media would feel it necessary to make this seem worse then it is. This disaster is not good enough for them?

[Oberon]

It's not just the public being mislead, the BBC earlier mentioned that one of their reporters caught PM Kan asking members of the Tokyo Energy Company "What the hell is going on?"

[XabbaRus]

I hope when you are talking about criticality you are only speaking about the reaction causing high thermal energy and not an explosion.

However if it melts through if it spreads out it will aid in cooling it down.

[Type941]

can someone clarify for me this. how long it takes to fully cool down the fuel? I mean from what i understand, the fuel rods once reaction is "activated" give off energy for 2-3 years at full power. But as they are now operating at 3% level it will take them decades to full cool. So they would rather have this crap melt and covered by concrete-lead and have it cooled much faster.

To put this into perspective, how long they need to pour water into reactors? years? months? the one plant is cooly shut down. This one is completely out of control and they may have not one, but up to 6 three mile island type insidents, 6 times more radiation, etc. It's still not chernobyl but still pretty fk.ing bad.

[Catfish]

News say Tepco has removed its technicians from the site at Fukushima since the situation is now out of control.
The inner containment of at least one reactor has blown up, they are measuring 400 millisievert "some kilometers away" ?!
And a shut-down reactor seems to have explodes as well (outer building)

Can anyone support or deny this ?
I don't trust Tepco for sure, but if even they say the situation is deteriorating it sure does not look good.



We have a japanese friend who went to Japan (Tokyo) on wednesday last week and have not heard anything since, i hope she's well

[Platapus]

can someone clarify for me this. how long it takes to fully cool down the fuel? I mean from what i understand, the fuel rods once reaction is "activated" give off energy for 2-3 years at full power. But as they are now operating at 3% level it will take them decades to full cool. So they would rather have this crap melt and covered by concrete-lead and have it cooled much faster.



In a nuclear reactor the percentage of power is a complicated calculation. Cutting out about 20 pages of technobabble, one can visualize that a reactor running at "3%" can do this in several ways. The first thing that has to be defined is what do they mean by 3%? Percent of fuel use, percent of fission? Percent of heat? Percent of power? All mean different things. Just saying that the reactor as been operating at "3%" is ambiguous.

Let's assume that they are talking about 3% of fission.

1. Have 3% of their rods being bombarded with neutrons. (it would have to be more than a numerical 3% but like I said, it is complicated.
2. Have a subset of a full load in which about 3% of the fuel is being bombarded with neutrons.
3. Other much more complicated ways.

In any case, fission is an all or nothing event per fuel rod element. One can't "throttle" an individual fuel rod element. The only way to throttle a reactor is to isolate rods or elements of rods. Any element of a fuel rod that is being bombarded with neutrons is fissioning at its full rate. Criticality is criticality.

With that oversimplified understanding, it will take the same amount of time for any specific irradiated fuel element to cool. Whether it is a full rod's worth or only one rod element, same time. This is why it is generally better to cook a full rod instead of cooking multiple rods only partially irradiated.

This is because every irradiated fuel element will generate a specific amount of what is called Decay Heat. An irradiated fuel element continues to produce heat even after being taking out of a reactor. This means that before any "cooling" can take place, all decay heat (additional generated heat) processes must be over. Without sufficient cooling, an irradiated fuel rod will continue to generate heat. You can have a "meltdown" or a cladding compromise. with a rod outside a reactor (just ask the North Koreans about that)

Generally (taken with a large pinch of PU) speaking the Decay Heat process will take a period of Months to end. Like radioactive half-lifes Decay Heat does not suddenly stop, but slowly gets smaller and smaller until it gets to the point where it can be considered no longer adding significant heat to the fuel element.

Generally speaking, spent fuel rods are kept in wet storage (the water helps cool the elements as well as provides screening) for about a year. After that they can be moved to what is called dry cask storage where they will sit for a very long time.

Please note that all these times are general and that there are many many factors that will affect these times. But I think this simplification will suffice to answer your question.... I hope.

[RickC Sniper]

MSNBC is reporting that they are now seeing heat elevating at plants 5 and 6 in the complex and are considering venting them.

I do not understand this. I think 5 and 6 were not even operational when the earthquake happened. It was my understanding that under normal circumstances when you shut a reactor down the cores quit emitting heat in a matter of a few days...as long as the water coolant is there. Why would shut down reactors now be showing elevated temperatures?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

edit...nevermind. Platapus answered my question as I was posting it. Thank you.

[Platapus]

If you have a reactor that has a full load of fuel rods, even when the control rods are fully extended, there will still be some activity that will require cooling. If something happened to the cooling system of this "shut down" reactor, there may be a future risk if it is not anticipated that the cooling system can operate.

Do BWRs not have safety rods? It has been about 30 years since I was last in a BWR.

They may, and the article is not clear on this, be considering venting early before anything gets busted. Venting now won't release any radioactive stuff (very very small amounts) but would vent any H gas that may be accumulating.

Better to vent now than wait until something bad happens.

[AVGWarhawk]

MSNBC is reporting that they are now seeing heat elevating at plants 5 and 6 in the complex and are considering venting them.

I do not understand this. I think 5 and 6 were not even operational when the earthquake happened. It was my understanding that under normal circumstances when you shut a reactor down the cores quit emitting heat in a matter of a few days...as long as the water coolant is there. Why would shut down reactors now be showing elevated temperatures?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

My guess is msnbc is looking for something to report on and generate some interest because CNN is doing a great job of creating news concerning the reactors. Looking at the Drudge Report there is a death cloud heading to LA and will be stationary over LA for years. In the meantime somewhere in Tokyo Bay a small reptile like creature is getting gobs of radiation and being genetically mutated into something we only see in the movies... No worries, the creature will invade NY but we will be saved by the US Air Force when the creature gets caught up in the Brooklyn Bridge truss work. :up:

It is very hard to trust the news agencies. After all, they are a business. Embellish and sensationalize gets you the viewership.

[Platapus]

It is very hard to trust the news agencies. After all, they are a business. Embellish and sensationalize gets you the viewership.

What chaps my butt is this attitude by the media. :damn:

What, this disaster is not disastrous enough for ratings? :damn::damn:

The media has to somehow make this "worse" than it is?

Is the public so dense that they need this sensationalist reporting to keep their interest in this disaster?

Hey News Media, What is happening in Japan is what we called in Nuke school as a "bad thing". Like really bad,. Totally bad. I mean not bad enough to preempt American Idol, but really really bad. There is no need to embellish it.:damn:

I wonder if the news media is so used to embellishing news stories that they can't help themselves. Do they know they are reporting misleading information? Do they care?

[AVGWarhawk]

It is all about the ratings man. Media generally creates panic. This is a classic example.

[Oberon]

ISIS is flapping:



2037: The US-based Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) has said it agrees with the assessment of France's Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) that the incident at Fukushima should be classified as level 6 on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES), one below Chernobyl. Following a number of explosions and a fire at the plant which released dangerous levels of radiation, ISIS said the situation had "worsened considerably" and was now closer to a level 6 event. "It may unfortunately reach a level 7," it added.



:damn:

These sort of statements are not helping things guys! China is evacuating their coast nearest Japan as well. Panic is starting to settle in amongst the people who are supposed to be the calm leaders of the worried people and panic is infectious, even amongst the calm and resolute people of Japan.

[Oberon]

AFP reports Reactor Four is on fire.

[Biggles]

AFP reports Reactor Four is on fire.

Indeed. Those reactors sure have a tendency to blow up again and again...

[Gargamel]

ISIS is flapping:





:damn:

These sort of statements are not helping things guys! China is evacuating their coast nearest Japan as well. Panic is starting to settle in amongst the people who are supposed to be the calm leaders of the worried people and panic is infectious, even amongst the calm and resolute people of Japan.

How about this one? from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12749444

Europe's energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger said Tokyo had almost lost control of the situation at Fukushima.
"There is talk of an apocalypse and I think the word is particularly well chosen," he told the European Parliament.


:damn:

[Growler]

How about this one? from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12749444



:damn:

All of this amply illustrates why I quit TV years ago, and why I'm down to as close to source news wherever I can find it - AP, Reuters, etc.

[Skybird]

I expect meltdowns happening there,if they have not already taken place. The only question that really is unanswered now is concerning the winds. For the next 48 hours, winds from NW are expected to dominate again. By the end of the week, they could turn from north to south again, for short intervals.

Tepco saids they did not force anyone to still work there, olf 850 personell, 800 have been evacuated, 50 still stayx tzhere. But early this morning German media reprot that the Japanese premier has ordered Tepco to not remove any more personell from the perimeter.

They also reported about the powerful, influential position of the pro-nuclear lobby in Japan, saying that the Japanese atom-lobby probably has been even more powerful and influential than that in America, France or Germany.

[Jimbuna]

It is all about the ratings man. Media generally creates panic. This is a classic example.

I suspect your right Chris :yep:

[Growler]

In response to all those earlier pictures of the idiots on Facebook:

LINK (http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2005/September/20050915165123ajesrom9.768313e-02.html).

Old news, but nonetheless, timely.

[Gargamel]

In response to all those earlier pictures of the idiots on Facebook:

LINK (http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2005/September/20050915165123ajesrom9.768313e-02.html).

Old news, but nonetheless, timely.

Good catch. Bookmarked for ammunition.

[krashkart]

Lady Luck just does not seem to be smiling on Fukushima Dai-ichi these days. :-?

[Biggles]

Lady Luck just does not seem to be smiling on Fukushima Dai-ichi these days. :-?

Well that's one way of putting it...sadly, it's not an inaccurate analysis.:-?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=VASTR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The operator of Japan's stricken Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear power plant says fire broke out again at its No. 4 reactor unit because the initial blaze was not completely extinguished.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. says the new blaze flared early Wednesday in the outer housing of the reactor's containment vessel. Fire fighters are trying to put out the flames.

[Skybird]

Lady Luck just does not seem to be smiling on Fukushima Dai-ichi these days. :-?
Maybe she means it well. She gives us the opportunity to learn that luck is no basis for planning with a technology like this.

I do not want to sound smart or coldhearted here, but imagine a disaster like this taking plac not on an island, but in the heart of Europe. Then wind would not matter - dozens of millions would be effected no matter wind direction.

It is a bad disaster. But there still arel worse scenarios I can imagine. For Japan, and beyond.

[DarkFish]

Panic is starting to settle in amongst the people who are supposed to be the calm leaders of the worried people and panic is infectious, even amongst the calm and resolute people of Japan.So far I haven't seen much panic here (Osaka). People go to work as usual, they go shopping as usual, they visit amusement parks as usual... If they are in panic they sure know how to hide it.

[ASWnut101]

On a slightly different note, here's a neat .gif animation of the wave heights off Japan at the time of the quake.

http://outreach.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ul/EVENT/201103_Tsunami_DrSatake.gif

For those who may be wondering, the main reason the wave moved so slowly to the west as opposed to the east is due to it moving through shallow water. The easterly wave took off into the open ocean.

[Oberon]

So far I haven't seen much panic here (Osaka). People go to work as usual, they go shopping as usual, they visit amusement parks as usual... If they are in panic they sure know how to hide it.

I meant more the leadership and the management of Tokyo Electric, not the people, the people of Japan are as cool as cucumbers, and I have a deep respect and admiration for that. It's all the conflicting information coming out from various sources that must be confusing and worrying for the people of Japan.

[Oberon]

On a slightly different note, here's a neat .gif animation of the wave heights off Japan at the time of the quake.

http://outreach.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ul/EVENT/201103_Tsunami_DrSatake.gif

For those who may be wondering, the main reason the wave moved so slowly to the west as opposed to the east is due to it moving through shallow water. The easterly wave took off into the open ocean.

Bloody hell...no wonder Miyagi province got a bashing. Take a look at the red on that animation it hits Sendai not once but twice within a half an hour to an hour. :o

[geetrue]

When are they going to bring in the concrete and sand bags?

That number four reactor was shut down for the last 30 days, but had all of the spent rods in the pool of water.

Spent rods are more dangerous, I would think, right?

[geetrue]

Maybe she means it well. She gives us the opportunity to learn that luck is no basis for planning with a technology like this.

I do not want to sound smart or coldhearted here, but imagine a disaster like this taking plac not on an island, but in the heart of Europe. Then wind would not matter - dozens of millions would be effected no matter wind direction.

It is a bad disaster. But there still arel worse scenarios I can imagine. For Japan, and beyond.

It was just a scroll on CNN that Germany has shut down all 11 nuclear power plants for inspection.

Smart move, but you still need them

[Biggles]

It was just a scroll on CNN that Germany has shut down all 11 nuclear power plants for inspection.


Why? Are there genuine concern that this disaster in Japan could affect nuclear powerplants in Europe, or were they just reminded now that they gotta look after their own powerplants?

I'm not sure I would like that the governments needs a horrendous disaster such as this to start taking interest in security around this sort of things. When handling such hazardous things such as uranium, it's not enough to think in hindsight. You gotta be one step ahead! :shifty:

[Gargamel]

It was just a scroll on CNN that Germany has shut down all 11 nuclear power plants for inspection.

Smart move, but you still need them

Pretty sure an inspection would not have prevented the damage caused by the quake.
:hmmm:

[Oberon]

How many 9.0 earthquakes and tsunamis does Germany get? :doh:

[Biggles]

Pretty sure an inspection would not have prevented the damage caused by the quake.
:hmmm:

Indeed, Japan is in a huge disadvantageous geographical position when considering that. Sure, Germany, may have 17 nuclear power plants, but in Germany, the risk for a 9.0 earthquake is, well, nill.

[Gargamel]

Yet another fire.

Maybe a previously reported fire. Not sure. Getting hard to keep all the reactors and their fires straight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12754883


But as mentioned, there are probably few sites in the world 'better' to have this type of disaster (nuc) happen. It's in a semi-rural area (even though it does seem to be heavily populated, so read that as non-urban), on the coast, with the prevailing winds pushing the majority of fallout over the ocean.

[geetrue]

Indeed, Japan is in a huge disadvantageous geographical position when considering that. Sure, Germany, may have 17 nuclear power plants, but in Germany, the risk for a 9.0 earthquake is, well, nill.

Perhaps not an earthquake or tidal wave, but I would think anyone's nuc plant is on someones terrorist list to take out.

Don't be afraid be ready should be in any boardroom ... :up:

[Gargamel]

The earthquake and tsunami are being listed as "1,000 year" events.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12740649

[CCIP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12755739

BBC now reporting that workers have retreated from the Fukushima plant after a spike in radiation. Now that is certainly one of the most worrying signs so far. I hope this doesn't mean they're essentially giving up, but I'm not sure how much of the emergency cooling operation was pure machinery, and how much of it involves hand labour on site.

[edit]
And a few minutes later, BBC says:
Japan says it is ready to ask the US military for help in battling the crisis at the Fukushima nuclear plant, the AFP news agency reports.

What could Uncle Sam have up his sleeve in a case like this? :hmmm:

[Freiwillige]

These experts seem to believe that the Chernobyl scenario has begun and Japan needs to start looking at building an immediate containment wall with sandbags and concrete the way they built a sarcophagus over Chernobyl.:o

http://news.yahoo.com/video/tech-15749651/24532243

[CCIP]

Well, the workers are back, but now the report is that a helicopter has been allowed to start dumping water on the facility - something they were reluctant to use before. Either things have improved a bit, or they're just getting desperate to get this thing cooled at all cost.

[Castout]

They need to evacuate those people outside but within 30 km distance rather than to tell them to stay in.

[Skybird]

Sure, Germany, may have 17 nuclear power plants, but in Germany, the risk for a 9.0 earthquake is, well, nill.

Small, but not nill. We do have earthquakes in Germany, btw, on a frequent basis - its just that they are so weak that nobody notices.

What we have is flooding. Interrupted power supplies (harming cooling). Aircraft disasters. Terror strikes. Mishandling and human error.

None of the German plants is protected sufficiently again st terror attacks. Most are not hardened against aircraft impacts. The awareness for risks is very low in Germany. Where I live, there is a channel that leads outbound of the city, I often bike there. There is a small harbour where gas-tankers unload, and some of the city gas is stored. It is also a storgae for end-user gas-bottles. There are the large round gas-tanks, there are hundreds of gas bottles stored under open sky. All just some meters away from the trail I bike, a thin wirefence - that's all. Not even a massive gate. All you need is a large-callibre handgun penetrating one of those gas bottles, or a simple RPG for those large gas tanks, and the whole compound would blow up. You do not need to overcome any security fences, you can stay outside. Get a car, drive there, stop at the gate, fire, get away.

Last year we had a fire in my part of the city, caused by one exploding gas bottle in a car repair service. The one bottle exploding caused the small storage of gas bottles in the neighbouring storgae to explode, and the whole area finally burned. I have also seen on TV where they demonstrated that with a single pistol you can cause chain-explosions of gas bottles.

the helicopter mission in Japan was cancelled. Too high radiation.

[Gargamel]

British Embassy prevents British SAR team from helping out Japan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12756366

[Type941]

yeah, i was wondering the same thing. just time to get this thing sarcofagged before it starts to pollute not land, but water.

[Gargamel]

yeah, i was wondering the same thing. just time to get this thing sarcofagged before it starts to pollute not land, but water.

Interesting creation of the verb there :D. I don't have one better though.

From what I've been reading though, they can't do that yet. They don't have the heat under control yet, and are still trying to control the cooling process. So if they encase the cores in concrete, it may continue to spiral, and end up burning through the bottom.

Also, logisitics. There's 10,000+ people dead in the region, everything is destroyed, and they are having trouble just getting food and water to the area right now. Imagine how hard it will be to get thousands of tonnes of concrete to the site.

After some research, it turns out 5,000 metric tons of sand, lead, and boron were dropped onto the reactor (Chernobyl). That complicates the logistics even more, as I'm pretty sure 2 of those three aren't in plentiful supply right now. And that was just 1 reactor. Fukushima has 3 (+/-) in crisis now.

[Penguin]

The plan to cool the reactors by dropping off water from helicopters sounds really desperate - why would they prefer this to cooling it by other actions? The amount of water a copter can carry ain't too much.

A little clarification about the situation in Germany:

At the beginning of the century, the socialdemocratic/green government coalition of this time decided an withdrawl from atomic energy in the mid-term - one of the few sensible decisions they made if you ask me.
Our current regime decided a withdrawl from the withdrawl :doh: - yes this sounds like the cluster**** German politics are.
Under the impression of the recent events, her holy Emperess, Chancellor Merkel, announced an intermission of the withdrawl from the withdrawl for three months :doh::doh: - whatever this means...

As a first measurement the 7 oldest plants (>30 years) are going to be shut down - 2 of them didn't produce energy atm anyway. It is unclear how long this shutdown is planned and also unclear iif these measurements are even enforable if the oligopol of energy producers say no. Further they announced a "serious investigation" of the safety of all nuclear power plants :-?
Most people think this is just tactics, considering that we have elections in several states for the Bundesrat (US: congress) in the next weeks. The public opinion about nuclear energy has dropped massively and the current lib/conservative coalition could lose their majority in the Bundesrat. Considering the short-term-memory of the voters it will be business as usual after the elections...

[Type941]

The spent fuel rods pool is a non issue from what I read because it would take a long time to boil away (Weeks) and they could refill it with fire hoses if needed, That is (If) the pool is not damaged.

i heard its a 40 feet deep pool near reactor and it can be damaged if water leaking from it... so that's not so easy to just patch.

latest stuff says they're pumping water from udnerground.

seems the weakness of the system is the catchment - torus - area. Something had to give.

[Type941]

Here's another question - in worst case (being 4-6 reactors melting fully down) - and with fallout partially into water, what happens then? How is water affected by radiation? Will it all get mixed up to a point where EVERYTHING will be just that much more contaminated and say our globabal normal radiation level average will incrase by say 0.002% (made up number) -- or it will settle to bottom and will need to be dug up and moved to some "graveyard" as they did with earth in this only level 6 reported - one in Russia in end of 50s.

in other words, do i need to give up my love for shellfish?

[papa_smurf]

British Embassy prevents British SAR team from helping out Japan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12756366

What a total admin balls up:damn:

[Type941]

russians went in and put the reactor out at cost of lives. now we can all live thanks to their heroism. why can't japanese start doing the same? Can't they realize how serious this sh.t is? If water supplies are damaged, we're all fcked. I think they are really not fit to rule this out. I can only hope the americans can step in and direct them to get something done.

just because this disaster isn't caused by man but by nature doesn't mean everyone should walk away and say it's not our fault, we're not responsible for fixing it if endangers our lives. Hopefully someone steps up and gets this solved. Otherwise we deserve this.
EDIT: as more info in, it appears there are 50-200 guys fighting this to the end and that's what one would expect in this situation. it seemed that they simply weren't doing enough - but perhaps there is just not much can be done anymore, too late.

[Tribesman]

everyone is a goddamn pxssy it seems in there
I have a bucket I will give you, why don't you man up and head over there to pour some water onto the pile. After all only a pussy would hesitate

[Type941]

I have a bucket I will give you, why don't you man up and head over there to pour some water onto the pile. After all only a pussy would hesitate

they build plants in one of the most active areas in the world - guess its their turn first. the company that's running this is obviously losing its marbles. I'm afraid they have really let things go far enough that it's just too late. If i lived there, id go but i guess it's the fact that they're too rigid and unable to think outside of the box in this situation that's making things worse and worse. all the nice details are coming up about how this TEPCO behaved in past, and dealt with safety. I'm glad you got faith in them. I most certainly do not. Read up how they stopped chernobyl from becoming a bigger problem - dug underground to drain water, etc. rotated personnel, and so on. i mean they're not doing anything, they are saying "its unsafe to be there" and "helicopters dumping water". What the fak? What good will come out of this? Sometimes life of one is not worth as much as life of many, as cruel as that sounds. So yes, i stand by what i say. they need to handle this as if their whole country's life depends on it. Because it does.

I realize it's an emotional post and I dont mean to offend anyone, but it's frustrating to watch this spiral out of control, day by day, seemingly the focus being on saving the trees and not the forest. That's what I'm trying to say. I think the power company if trusted any more, will have us all drink contaminated water and suffer from irradiated foods because they were careless. that's alll.

[Freiwillige]

Well the reactor hasn't melted down yet, there is a slim chance that they may limit the damage. But when push comes to shove I think they will do what needs to be done. The Ruskies didn't charge in there like it was a glorious crusade either, they exhausted all options first.

Japan probably still has that tinge of national pride they had the previous 1,000 years so I doubt they will shrug there shoulders and walk away.

They will tackle it when all options fail, they have little choice much like the Comrades in the Ukraine.

[DarkFish]

Here's another question - in worst case (being 4-6 reactors melting fully down) - and with fallout partially into water, what happens then? How is water affected by radiation? Will it all get mixed up to a point where EVERYTHING will be just that much more contaminated and say our globabal normal radiation level average will incrase by say 0.002% (made up number)you'd better add some zeroes to that number. On a global scale it will matter about as much as my decision to reply to your post. Everything from outside of Japan should be perfectly safe to eat. For food produced in Japan, it'll depend on the exact location it comes from, and where the local water supply is coming from.

[DarkFish]

everyone is a goddamn pxssy it seems in there.Until you go there yourself with a firehose in your hands you've got no right to speak.

Besides, we live in the 21st century. There do exist some things like "remotely controlled" and "automatically".

[Nicolas]

I'm a ignorant of these things, someone explain me, seems the way is to get water in these reactors what the problem with that, there is not enough water pressure, not enough pumps? they can't transport pumps to the place?

[TLAM Strike]

I'm a ignorant of these things, someone explain me, seems the way is to get water in these reactors what the problem with that, there is not enough water pressure, not enough pumps? they can't transport pumps to the place?

OK the way I understand it the pumps have a diesel backup power supply to keep them going if the reactor is shut down. When the Earthquake happened the reactors shut down automatically causing the diesels to kick in to keep the reactors cool but the tsunami damaged the backup generators (they have batteries as back up for that and those were put to use for a while). The tsunami also flooded the building(s) where the generators connect to the pumps. It was then decided to pump in sea water followed by boric acid to cool the reactor though the fire suppression piping (echos of K-19 here), this will ruin the reactor. Then an aftershock happened and they had to stop pumping in sea water, and then they ran out of sea water in their reservoirs.

[Nicolas]

I would like to read more details about that, being the main issue, that must be the engineers focus now.

[Freiwillige]

Seems to me like Japan is being very hush hush about the goings ons with their reactors.:hmmm:

[Growler]

Seems to me like Japan is being very hush hush about the goings ons with their reactors.:hmmm:

Looking at the levels of headless-chicken panic in the rest of the world, I can understand why. This is a culture where an elderly woman being pulled from the wreckage of her home apologized for inconveniencing her rescuers.

On the global stage, Japan better than all nations (with the possible exception of Ukraine), understands the nature and consequences of radiation, fallout, and nuclear/atomic catastrophe. In Europe and the US, the anti-nuke crowd tends to have a lot of followers who only care to understand that "nuclear is bad" and will seize any and all opportunities to "prove it" when things like this happen.

I wonder where are the "aviation is bad" people are when a plane crashes? Or "autos are bad" when there's a bad wreck on the Beltway? Exactly. They don't exists, and accidents with those pieces of technology are far more common than nuclear reactor incidents - three major ones in some 30-odd years (Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and now Fukushima). And in the last case, it took a severe earthquake, severe aftershocks, and major tsunami (all in the realm of 1000 year events, according to the BBC) to effect the nuclear disaster on top of it.

The situation is bad entirely due to the initial cause - the natural disasters - and the resulting disruptions that followed due to those initial causes.

People are doing everything they can to contain and resolve this issue - why wouldn't they? It's THEIR homes directly effected - yet California is about out of potassium iodide tabs while people freak out.

The resulting effects of this won't bother much of the world too much - this planet is a BIG place, and we're talking about a relatively inconsequential amount of radiation in comparison. Will people die of it? I hope not, but who can tell? Have lives changed already because of this? I would argue that the life changing events are the ones than led up to this, but that doesn't diminish the consequences of this, either.

What Japan needs, and what the rest of the world needs most right now is for people to stop being afraid, stop pointing fingers, and help. This is a bad situation - panic and blame won't fix it.

[MaddogK]

I'm a ignorant of these things, someone explain me, seems the way is to get water in these reactors what the problem with that, there is not enough water pressure, not enough pumps? they can't transport pumps to the place?
There are 2 sets of pumps involved, 1 set for the primary side which evacuates the heat directly from the reactor and moves the heated coolant to the heat exchanger, and the secondary pumps which evacuate heat from the heat exchanger thru the secondary cooling system. The 2 cooling systems are independent from each other but work together. Pumping water into the reactor does nothing much to cool the reactor as the water isn't being drawn thru the heat exchanger, and the reactor water is radioactive so it must remain contained within the reactor, and the reactor can only hold so much water. Also the steam generated within the reactor cannot be allowed to escape to the open atmosphere as it also is radioactive.

[Catfish]

As far as i read they do not have two separated water circuits, in all japanese reactors. They are said to be one-circuit heat exchange systems (?)
I have wondered how this is supposed to work, radiation-wise ?

[Oberon]

The US is going to throw a drone over the reactors and take a look with IR and see what's going on down there. That might shed some light on the situation a bit clearer than is being put forward by Tepco now...and/or lead to another round of the new game of global panic where you too can have a panic attack over an incident happening on the other side of the globe!

[MaddogK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BWR

The condenser would be the heat exchanger.

[ASWnut101]

As far as i read they do not have two separated water circuits, in all japanese reactors. They are said to be one-circuit heat exchange systems (?)
I have wondered how this is supposed to work, radiation-wise ?

Like Maddog showed above, BWR's use one circuit to take the energy from the reactor and power the turbines. The high pressure steam leaves the reactor core, exits the pressure vessel, goes through the turbines, and then cooled back to a liquid in the condenser before being pumped through the reactor again. It's considered one of the primary safety disadvantages of a BWR, as the radioactive steam is allowed to escape primary containment.

[UnderseaLcpl]

OK the way I understand it the pumps have a diesel backup power supply to keep them going if the reactor is shut down. When the Earthquake happened the reactors shut down automatically causing the diesels to kick in to keep the reactors cool but the tsunami damaged the backup generators (they have batteries as back up for that and those were put to use for a while). The tsunami also flooded the building(s) where the generators connect to the pumps. It was then decided to pump in sea water followed by boric acid to cool the reactor though the fire suppression piping (echos of K-19 here), this will ruin the reactor. Then an aftershock happened and they had to stop pumping in sea water, and then they ran out of sea water in their reservoirs.

Here's a question: Why weren't the control rods designed to simply drop into the core in the event of a power failure to stop the reaction?

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I have what would probably be best described as a casual interest in nuclear power-generation technology. From what I understand, a full application of control rods should be enough to stop any reaction the plant is capable of generating. If that is correct, why weren't the control rods released the moment the power failed? Feel free to stop me right here if I've got something wrong.

In any case, I spoke to a friend of mine who works in the BNSF corporate office the other day and she said she wasn't surprised by what happened to the Japanese reactors because many of their systems were designed by General Electric. To clarify, BNSF Railways Inc. does a lot of business with GE. She told me that GE has a history, in recent years, of designing failsafes that aren't really failsafes because they like to cut corners at the expense of quality.

Her assumption was that the Japanese reactor failsafes were probably a lot like the failsafes they installed on the engines of our DASH-9 CE-44W locomotives to prevent plasma arcing in the event of a current reversal; which is to say that they rely upon the other systems in the cheapest, most basic system they could design to power the failsafes, which seem to have been "tacked-on" after the original design was completed.

In our case, we've suffered some damage to locomotive engines because the computer that is supposed to prevent the electronically-relayed command to the generators to reverse direction, and therefore current flow (locos use DC power), doesn't always function properly. Under some emergency circumstances, it will allow a sudden reversal of current, which fries the hell out of the motors.

I wonder if this situation with the Japanese nukes is indicative of faulty GE engineering to cut corners in the same way - utilizing existing systems to power failsafes. It seems to me that a simple pneumatic or hydraulic system that would activate in the absence of current would be sufficient to propel the control rods into the reaction chamber, much as airbrakes on trains will apply in the absence of air pressure.

Thoughts?

[Biggles]

What Japan needs, and what the rest of the world needs most right now is for people to stop being afraid, stop pointing fingers, and help. This is a bad situation - panic and blame won't fix it.

I agree. I couldn't withheld an audible snort when I saw the frontpage of one of the Swedish newspapers, which took up the "news" that a handful of Swedish nationalities in Japan are afraid and want to get out of there, and are complaining that the Japanese gov. doesn't help that much. I'm sorry, but to quote Peter Griffin: "That just grinds my gears!" :nope:

[Platapus]

Here's a question: Why weren't the control rods designed to simply drop into the core in the event of a power failure to stop the reaction?

In a BWR the control rods are raised from the bottom instead of dropping from the top.

a full application of control rods should be enough to stop any reaction the plant is capable of generating.

Under normal circumstances, yes, the application of the control rods will prevent further fission. However, it will have no affect on the heat being present or even continuing after the fission is stopped. The problem is that if the reactor has a large void (negitive) coefficient , the increased heat (when the cooling system fails), may overcome the absorption effects of the control rod.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_coefficient

In plain words, the hotter the reactor gets, the less effective the moderator will be. Given enough heat, the control rods may be of minimal use.

[Freiwillige]

Good news on the horizon at last!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

Power lines are being routed and are almost ready to bring power back to the plant.

[Type941]

Here's a question: Why weren't the control rods designed to simply drop into the core in the event of a power failure to stop the reaction?

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I have what would probably be best described as a casual interest in nuclear power-generation technology. From what I understand, a full application of control rods should be enough to stop any reaction the plant is capable of generating. If that is correct, why weren't the control rods released the moment the power failed? Feel free to stop me right here if I've got something wrong.

In any case, I spoke to a friend of mine who works in the BNSF corporate office the other day and she said she wasn't surprised by what happened to the Japanese reactors because many of their systems were designed by General Electric. To clarify, BNSF Railways Inc. does a lot of business with GE. She told me that GE has a history, in recent years, of designing failsafes that aren't really failsafes because they like to cut corners at the expense of quality.

Her assumption was that the Japanese reactor failsafes were probably a lot like the failsafes they installed on the engines of our DASH-9 CE-44W locomotives to prevent plasma arcing in the event of a current reversal; which is to say that they rely upon the other systems in the cheapest, most basic system they could design to power the failsafes, which seem to have been "tacked-on" after the original design was completed.

In our case, we've suffered some damage to locomotive engines because the computer that is supposed to prevent the electronically-relayed command to the generators to reverse direction, and therefore current flow (locos use DC power), doesn't always function properly. Under some emergency circumstances, it will allow a sudden reversal of current, which fries the hell out of the motors.

I wonder if this situation with the Japanese nukes is indicative of faulty GE engineering to cut corners in the same way - utilizing existing systems to power failsafes. It seems to me that a simple pneumatic or hydraulic system that would activate in the absence of current would be sufficient to propel the control rods into the reaction chamber, much as airbrakes on trains will apply in the absence of air pressure.

Thoughts?


Rods dropped fine. The thing is, the fuel reaction is going to go on for a long time, the rods don't kill it, they just take it down to a marginal level. So that stuff is easy to cool off in normal environment and is later stored in pools when used up (hence, the whole drama of fires in the pool with used fuel - see they still need to store it). There are safer way store it, in dry conditions I heard but don't know much more about it. The temperatures are much lower of course and so it's not that big of an issue as with hot reactor.

This chart perhaps explains it better for you - take a look:
http://mitnse.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/decayheat.jpg

It is about .5% of reactor power now.

More info here (scroll to decay heat article): http://mitnse.com/

[Freiwillige]

And now the bad news. :x

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_japan_quake_spent_fuel

[papa_smurf]

From BBC News:

2038: Experts warn that if radiation levels become too high, workers at the plant would not only be prevented from approaching reactor 4's spent fuel pond, but also the adjacent reactors, which also have malfunctioning cooling systems.

[Type941]

And now the bad news. :x

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_japan_quake_spent_fuel

yet TEPCO is in denial and saying all is OK in the pool. how you explain that. I trust the americans more as they're ordering much wider exclusion alrady of 50 miles. seems it's a matter of time now - look at the pictures, they are just one by one starting to look like a SimSity housing project gone bad.

[Oberon]

I must admit, TEPCO has been quite misleading, I understand they don't want to cause a panic but sometimes less information is more damaging than more.

At the moment TEPCO kinda looks like this to me:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5507/nothingtoseehere.jpg

"Ok, nothing to see here, move along please..."

[Skybird]

By archgitectural layout, the pools for old rods are stored not on ground level, but in elevated, uncovered bassins comparing to 5th and 6th floor. And the roofs went ablast and there was plenty of steam, and very big explosions with huge shockwaves doing additonal damage to the interior. I have big problems with believing anybody trying to tell me that the pools are still filled with water. I take it for granted that the rods in there are exposed and heating up. On TV they said the burnt rods need to lay dry for 48 hours before they start to ignite themselves.

They lost it. It's time to think about how to contain the site's radiation with a sarcophage. And how to maintain that hull for the coming millenia. Chernobyl took less than 15 years before the first fractures and splits in the outer hull were discovered.

[ASWnut101]

Here's a question: Why weren't the control rods designed to simply drop into the core in the event of a power failure to stop the reaction?

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I have what would probably be best described as a casual interest in nuclear power-generation technology. From what I understand, a full application of control rods should be enough to stop any reaction the plant is capable of generating. If that is correct, why weren't the control rods released the moment the power failed? Feel free to stop me right here if I've got something wrong.

Yeah, the rods are hydraulically or (in emergencies that disabled the hydros) steam driven into the core from below to scram it. The reactors all scrammed as expected, it's just the decay heat that has been causing all of these problems.

Most other reactor designs uses rods that are attached to electromagnets. If the power goes out, gravity pulls them into the core.

In any case, I spoke to a friend of mine who works in the BNSF corporate office the other day and she said she wasn't surprised by what happened to the Japanese reactors because many of their systems were designed by General Electric. To clarify, BNSF Railways Inc. does a lot of business with GE. She told me that GE has a history, in recent years, of designing failsafes that aren't really failsafes because they like to cut corners at the expense of quality.

Her assumption was that the Japanese reactor failsafes were probably a lot like the failsafes they installed on the engines of our DASH-9 CE-44W locomotives to prevent plasma arcing in the event of a current reversal; which is to say that they rely upon the other systems in the cheapest, most basic system they could design to power the failsafes, which seem to have been "tacked-on" after the original design was completed.

In our case, we've suffered some damage to locomotive engines because the computer that is supposed to prevent the electronically-relayed command to the generators to reverse direction, and therefore current flow (locos use DC power), doesn't always function properly. Under some emergency circumstances, it will allow a sudden reversal of current, which fries the hell out of the motors.

I wonder if this situation with the Japanese nukes is indicative of faulty GE engineering to cut corners in the same way - utilizing existing systems to power failsafes. It seems to me that a simple pneumatic or hydraulic system that would activate in the absence of current would be sufficient to propel the control rods into the reaction chamber, much as airbrakes on trains will apply in the absence of air pressure.

Thoughts?While I'm not going to deny that corners may have been cut (because I can't), the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant is around 40 years old. It was built back in the heyday when we weren't as concerned (or at least aware) about the safety issues. Modern designs have actually drastically improved the safety and reliability of BWRs, culminating in the design of the modern ABWR (Advanced Boiling Water Reactor).

This tragedy has actually raised some questions about the fundamental design of the reactor's safety systems. It's kind of technical, but in a (large?) nutshell, when designing the ABWRs, engineers got together and tried to think up the worst possible series of events that could happen to the reactor. What they came up with is called a DBA, or Design Basis Accident. However, chemical explosions and actual damage to the emergency subsystems of the reactor were never included in the DBA scenario, so it will be interesting to see how the designs change and what they do with the modern BWRs already installed to make sure something like this wont happen again.


look at the pictures, they are just one by one starting to look like a SimSity housing project gone bad. That's horrible...but it made me laugh anyway :haha:

[Skybird]

I must admit, TEPCO has been quite misleading, I understand they don't want to cause a panic but sometimes less information is more damaging than more.


Tepco is a cheater. Since years they are engaged in long chain of scandals, deceptions, coverups, lies and more lies. Unfortunately, there is probably no othert country in the world where the nuclear lobby has lobbied so intensely and successfully for political influence, like in Japan.

It's pretty much a Mafia. But then, much of the economic structure of Japan is. Especially Americans often claim they successfully turned Japan into a democracy after WWII. But that they can only claim because they never have loked close enough. The Japanese econolmy, and thus its political system, is being run by very different mechanisms and powerstructures than that you gain by democratic legitimation processes and open market economy.

This does not mean that Western corporations do not successfully run efforts to erode the democratic sysxtem, too. I only say energy and oil companies, Monsanto, Halliburton, and so many others. And Europe - shares the vision of wanting a dioctaorship, too. The decison-making power-structures in the EU more and more remind me of the way corrupt, rotten cadres ran the former GDR and the USSR.

[Catfish]

... there is probably no othert country in the world where the nuclear lobby has lobbied so intensely and successfully for political influence, like in Japan.

It's pretty much a Mafia. But then, much of the economic structure of Japan is. Especially Americans often claim they successfully turned Japan into a democracy after WWII. But that they can only claim because they never have loked close enough. ...


Why, the whole US conservative leadership and especially the CIA is the mafia :O:

[Type941]

I guess here's the rub. If reactor operates at full power, the fuel element lasts like 3 years before being put into that nice "safe pool". The fact that reactor scrammed, means that the operating power is down to less than 1% in matter of days, and dropped to 6% in about 1 second. So now's the b.tch of a situation - this energy is still all there. So if you had 3 years to spend it, now you got 100. So effectively this crap has to be either safely stored in water OR it goes kaboom and releases all this nuclear energy in one blast. Can it happen? I don't know but they are suggesting it this US speech they made just now. Since there is many of them together, they melt, etc. And reactor 3 has Plutonium as well which makes it the most dangerous.

Really, this is bad, very bad, and very very bad. I think it's going to blow up and we'll have a massive fallout for 200-300 km. And Japan is done as a power for long long time. We can also expect another recession globally as a result because let's face it, fuel prices doubling through speculators will not help the consumers already full in debt, while increase tension further because now countries like Iran, Russia, and other oil rich nations get a chance to REALLY show what money can do.

My only hope, is that from this: 1) New ways of dealing with nuclear disaster are learned 2) people acutally survive it better than Chernobyl 3) renewable's research steps up a notch, lead this time by government and not private companies which aren't motivated enough it seems and 4) the world calms the fak down, because lately the whole political world feels like this Daichi powerplant. :damn:

If this was a movie, in a last possible moment some engineer woudl throw some yogurt/baby panda/ipod at the reactor and that would stop it completely and voila we have found a strange way of fighting radiation and world is saved. But as people who follow dating advice from movies know, movies and real life just ain't the same thing.

[XabbaRus]

OK it can't go kaboom, no nuclear explosion.

It has to be kept cool as they still generate heat, and they should be kept separate.

Now maybe corners have been cut and there are lessons to be learnt, but all this worlwide panic and condemnation of nuclear power is ridiculous.

Please give me viable green economically effective alternatives.

Wind power...cost per/MW generated to install windpower is not cost effective, in the UK the government pays subsidies to power firms to install and run them. Wave power is immature and again ineffective. Hydro is a viable alternative for the UK, but as soon as you start damming valleys people complain about drowning the rabbits. Nuclear does not automatically mean dangerous....

[Type941]

OK it can't go kaboom, no nuclear explosion.

It has to be kept cool as they still generate heat, and they should be kept separate.

Now maybe corners have been cut and there are lessons to be learnt, but all this worlwide panic and condemnation of nuclear power is ridiculous.

Please give me viable green economically effective alternatives.

Wind power...cost per/MW generated to install windpower is not cost effective, in the UK the government pays subsidies to power firms to install and run them. Wave power is immature and again ineffective. Hydro is a viable alternative for the UK, but as soon as you start damming valleys people complain about drowning the rabbits. Nuclear does not automatically mean dangerous....

Wind is dead end, i give you that - it's the base load problem. Germany blackouts few years back showed this VERY well.

It's not a nuclear explosion but an explosion from contact with something explosive, like may be too much water at too hot fuel? I don't know but isn't that the danger? The explosion of any kind putting all this radioctive crap into the air and spreading that where wind blows?

[Betonov]

So effectively this crap has to be either safely stored in water OR it goes kaboom and releases all this nuclear energy in one blast. Can it happen?
It won't go off like a nuclear bomb. You need to compress the uranium and then fire a neutron into the mass to start a chain reaction, can't happen in fuel rods.
But it can go kaboom. The heat would generate gases that would biuld up pressure and one day go kaboom like a baloon, or some chemical reaction generating flammable gases that would also go kaboom

[Pablo]

OK it can't go kaboom, no nuclear explosion.

It has to be kept cool as they still generate heat, and they should be kept separate.

Now maybe corners have been cut and there are lessons to be learnt, but all this worlwide panic and condemnation of nuclear power is ridiculous.

Please give me viable green economically effective alternatives.

Wind power...cost per/MW generated to install windpower is not cost effective, in the UK the government pays subsidies to power firms to install and run them. Wave power is immature and again ineffective. Hydro is a viable alternative for the UK, but as soon as you start damming valleys people complain about drowning the rabbits. Nuclear does not automatically mean dangerous....
Hi!

It is true that the reactors will not result in a Hiroshima-like detonation; however, the destruction of Chernobyl and the depopulation of large parts of the Ukraine pretty clearly show that a nuclear reactor does not have to explode to cause catastrophic damage.

Pablo

[XabbaRus]

I think the danger is the spent fuel rods burning and causing fires.

If you chuck cold water onto hot rods you will get a steam explosion.

What happened in Chernobyl was a massive steam explosion that tore off the roof. It seems what has happened in Japan is hydrogen gas exploding which has been vented from the pressure vessels.

However we should not allow this to lead to panic. The reactors haven't failed because they are nuclear reactors, it is a combination of bad luck that has brought this about. Maybe bad design but all this does not to point to nuclear bad, should be given up on.

[Type941]

I think the danger is the spent fuel rods burning and causing fires.

If you chuck cold water onto hot rods you will get a steam explosion.

What happened in Chernobyl was a massive steam explosion that tore off the roof. It seems what has happened in Japan is hydrogen gas exploding which has been vented from the pressure vessels.

However we should not allow this to lead to panic. The reactors haven't failed because they are nuclear reactors, it is a combination of bad luck that has brought this about. Maybe bad design but all this does not to point to nuclear bad, should be given up on.

I think the fact that we have 4 reactors ready to fail (or 6? if fuel is burning) we are looking into a clear design fault. Remember, Chernobyl went off like a bomb, and yet, 3 other reactors were safe and one operated for a decade after. This thing here is just falling apart and it's not 1 but all of them having issues. This makes me fear this more than Chernobyl. It's like a lot of smaller problems that if one gets out of control, all do.

[Gargamel]

Good news on the horizon at last!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

Power lines are being routed and are almost ready to bring power back to the plant.

Saw this article, and it explained a lot.

Most of the problems with plant is from the loss of power. The system was designed to in case of an emergency, the systems scram and emergency power from generators would maintain the systems. If that should fail, external power supplies would kick in. They never expected for this level of disaster where the tertiary system's (and beyond) were destroyed.

As soon as they get these power lines ran, they can restore most of the normal cooling systems and stop most of the issues that are happening.

[RickC Sniper]

As soon as they get these power lines ran, they can restore most of the normal cooling systems and stop most of the issues that are happening.

Perhaps, as long as those cooling systems are still intact.

I think the biggest design problem was clustering 4, 5, even 6 reactors together in one location. If it had been just one plant or maybe even two they may have been able to handle the situation.

[Gargamel]

Perhaps, as long as those cooling systems are still intact.

Yes that.

[RickC Sniper]

Sadly, this debacle with the power plants takes attention and resources away from all those thousands of poor people who have lost everything to the tsunami.

[Jimbuna]

Now the latest for these poor buggass is snow- followed by radioactive fallout- wonderful :nope:

[Dowly]

Watching the helos dropping water to the reactors on NHK TV... looks pretty desperate. :-?

[Growler]

Sadly, this debacle with the power plants takes attention and resources away from all those thousands of poor people who have lost everything to the tsunami.

Also overlooked - the people fighting to save what they can out of this disaster at the plant(s) are not at home where they're needed to do the same thing.

[Biggles]

Watching the helos dropping water to the reactors on NHK TV... looks pretty desperate. :-?

My thought exactly...

[Bakkels]

I think the fact that we have 4 reactors ready to fail (or 6? if fuel is burning) we are looking into a clear design fault. Remember, Chernobyl went off like a bomb, and yet, 3 other reactors were safe and one operated for a decade after. This thing here is just falling apart and it's not 1 but all of them having issues. This makes me fear this more than Chernobyl. It's like a lot of smaller problems that if one gets out of control, all do.

It's not some complicated design fault. The reactors automatically shut down when sensors feel an earthquake (and they did shut down). But the uranium (or plutonium) rods in the core then need to be cooled.
The standard cooling system runs on electricity, but the magnitude of the earthquake (or the tsunami) cut the power.
Then they have another back-up system; diesel-generators. But the tsunami flooded those, so there is just no electricity to pump the water to cool the reactor.
So IMO it's not really a design flaw, more a case of poor judgement in the placing of the powerplant. Placing a power plant literally a stones throw away from the coast in a country that's earthquake ridden is the mistake here I think.

I agree with the Growler btw, here in the Netherlands they only started paying attention today, to those fifty people risking their lives to save a lot more people. Let's hope they get it under control soon. And let's hope they'll survive this.

[Gargamel]

Watching the helos dropping water to the reactors on NHK TV... looks pretty desperate. :-?


Here's a link for those that missed it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12768791


And another great summary with video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12757167

[Gargamel]

So IMO it's not really a design flaw, more a case of poor judgement in the placing of the powerplant. Placing a power plant literally a stones throw away from the coast in a country that's earthquake ridden is the mistake here I think.

Well, Here in Ohio, we have this great behemoth within sight (or at least the plumes is) within 50 miles or so away.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nBaWI2hPVZ4/TQqN8moMYNI/AAAAAAAAA2E/UmlnFDLT4Y8/s320/1.jpg

(Notice only one tower is running. They never finished the second reactor).

When they built perry, they (somebody in power) initially said that CEI could use the lake for cooling, or even partial cooling, letting them build low profile towers. But then they said the full size towers were required.

Fukushima is smartly built on the ocean's shore, where they have an unlimited heat sink to cool their reactors. This greatly cut's down on building costs, and makes operations much easier, as they don't have to pump superheated water up a few dozen stories, they just pump the seawater up a bit. If you look at the the before and after photos linked many pages ago, you can see the water outlets running, they look like the outlets of a hydroelectric plant.

I think they're issues was not putting it on the coast, but putting it on the wrong coast.

Of course, when this was built, the knowledge and experience with tsunami's and tectonics we have now did not exist, and putting them on the western coasts made nice targets if their was ever a shooting war with the communists. So in hindsight, bad idea. But at the time, it was the most logical place to put it.

[MaddogK]

I was just reading about the TMI accident, and in that episode the fuel rods completely melted down and melted only 5/8 of an inch of the 1 foot thick steel reactor vessel before the fuels half life point was reached and radiation levels dropped allowing crews inside to clean up the mess.

The danger in japan is those spent fuel pools, those pools are dry by now, and have no surrounding containment vessel, so if they explode because of the fires they probably will spew radioactive material over the countryside. There's NO danger of an atomic bomb type explosion so some of you guys can relax, the reactors are likely junk, but they won't explode either provided they get the cooling system operable soon.

The storage ponds are the danger, air dropping water tho appears desperate but is likely the only thing that can be done till the pumps come back up. Pray for those workers, they're likely sacrificing their lives to save their contrymen. Whatever the outcome they're hero's.

[Bakkels]

Well, Here in Ohio, we have this great behemoth within sight (or at least the plumes is) within 50 miles or so away.

When they built perry, they (somebody in power) initially said that CEI could use the lake for cooling, or even partial cooling, letting them build low profile towers. But then they said the full size towers were required.

Fukushima is smartly built on the ocean's shore, where they have an unlimited heat sink to cool their reactors. This greatly cut's down on building costs, and makes operations much easier, as they don't have to pump superheated water up a few dozen stories, they just pump the seawater up a bit. If you look at the the before and after photos linked many pages ago, you can see the water outlets running, they look like the outlets of a hydroelectric plant.

I think they're issues was not putting it on the coast, but putting it on the wrong coast.

Well I didn't mean you should never build a nuclear power plant near water; of course you should, it's way easier to cool your plant that way.
But the risk of a tsunami is way too large, especially on the eastern shoreline of Japan.

Of course, when this was built, the knowledge and experience with tsunami's and tectonics we have now did not exist, and putting them on the western coasts made nice targets if their was ever a shooting war with the communists. So in hindsight, bad idea. But at the time, it was the most logical place to put it.

Tsunami isn't a new word. Japan has had thousands of years of experience with tsunami's.
And it wouldn't have really helped against the communist 'threat' either. From east to west coast in that region is about 60 miles, I'll bet there was at least one rusty Russian rocket that could make it that far :O:

[Gargamel]

From east to west coast in that region is about 60 miles, I'll bet there was at least one rusty Russian rocket that could make it that far :O:
And a helluva lot more interceptors over that 60 mile range. You don't stick your weak points and high value targets out front. :P Not, as you say, that it would have helped much, but it would have helped.

[Onkel Neal]

So IMO it's not really a design flaw, more a case of poor judgement in the placing of the powerplant. Placing a power plant literally a stones throw away from the coast in a country that's earthquake ridden is the mistake here I think.



Agreed.
We have reactors in my hometown of Bay City, and as far back as I can remember there was very little drama associated with them.

I have no way of knowing what is actually happening inside these plants. Reading varied and feverish news reports does not necessarily tell me anything. There are other reports that downplay the apocalyptic tone. (http://www.slate.com/id/2288391/)We will have to wait to see what happened here.


No one could have predicted every misfortune that hit this plant. First a quake bigger than any quake in Japan's history took out the power grid. Then a tsunami arrived with unprecedented speed and took out the backup diesel generators. An explosion at one reactor knocked out four of five pumps at another. A valve malfunction blocked water from being pumped into one of the reactors. Gauges failed. Instrument panels failed. A fire erupted in a spent-fuel storage pool in a reactor that had been offline for months.
But just as surprisingly, the disaster hasn't become an apocalypse. Cooling water has been depleted, then replenished. The damaged containers have remained largely intact. Cores are believed to have melted, but only partially, and by some estimates only marginally. Reactor buildings have exploded, but peripherally. External radiation levels have risen, then fallen. Fires have died, then restarted, then died again. Most plant workers have been evacuated, but others have stayed behind to cool the reactors and put out the fires.

[TorpX]

My two cents about the situation:

I think it's pointless to say the disaster was caused by putting the plant on the coast. The technology is inherently dangerous no matter where its located. Other nuclear accidents occured for differing reasons. The next one will probably be caused by something else. Strong earthquakes are rare; human error/incompetence is not. If well built plants in Japan are at risk, I shudder at the thought at what might happen when things go wrong in North Korea, or Iran or wherever.

These reactor cores strike me as being like computer hard drives; its not a question of if, but a question of when. The technology is both complicated and unforgiving. They have all sorts of backup systems designed to cope with the event, but these rely on constant maintainance and expert operators. People have made an anology to plane crashes or auto accidents, but the comparison is not a good one. When you drive off the road, you might be killed, but not your neighbor, your neighbor's family, and the family next to them, etc. A nuclear accident can render a large area radioactive for thousands of years.

It was apparent several days ago, when they started using sea water to cool the reactors, that the situation was very serious. It seems likely that every normal mechanism to deal with the problem had failed or been exhausted. From what I've learned, this would only be done if the reactors had already been damadged beyond use or normal mechanisms could not cope with the crysis. Little definative information has been released by the company or government. I can offer a guess why. It seems likely that fires or explosions have compromised the controls and sensors that would normally be used in this situation as well as at least one containment vessel. The authorities either don't have a clear idea of just what is happening, or they do know, but have decided to say as little as possible, fearing a general panic. The immediate areas around these reactors are possibly too hazardous for the crews to properly evaluate the status of the (2 or 3?) units. Recent reports of increasing the allowable radiation dosage for personnel, and using helocoptors to try to "hose down" parts of these plants, suggest they are truly desperate. I can only hope they have made or are making preperations for building a last ditch containment of these reactors. I would guess this would require significant manpower and material and could not be done at short notice. Perhaps, the people in charge are reluctant to go down this road as it could well mean ordering workers to their deaths.

All in all, it is an appalling situation.


My information is no better than anyone else's. But the sparse, and conflicting nature of the information comming out, is worrying in itself. If using a generator to pump in some seawater was a solution, they most likely would have stabalized the situation by now.

[Bilge_Rat]

On the issue of location, let's not forget that Japan is a small country. Area of 145,000 square miles but 73% of that is forested and mountainous and can't be used, so 127,000,000 persons , plus farms and cities are packed in to 40,000 square miles, which is about the size of the state of Maine...that does not leave you much choice in where you put the power plants.

[Armistead]

Agreed.
We have reactors in my hometown of Bay City, and as far back as I can remember there was very little drama associated with them.

I have no way of knowing what is actually happening inside these plants. Reading varied and feverish news reports does not necessarily tell me anything. There are other reports that downplay the apocalyptic tone. (http://www.slate.com/id/2288391/)We will have to wait to see what happened here.

Always best to play down apocalyptic predictions, even as the plume reaches the US tomorrow, minor increases in radiation probably would be good for us all.:O: In the end, kind of hard to tell millions to pack up and leave in Japan, better to lie and reassure them.

I see the navy has pulled back 50 more miles.

[zaza]

Sapporo is not,but
news says ,lack of food and lack of gas around Tohoku area now.
Today north part of Japan were very cold.

I hope they get better situation as soon as possible.


By the way, do you know that Fukushima Nuclear power plant for whose ?


As you know " Fukushima Nuclear power plants" locate in Fukushima prefecture,
but electric are not supply servicing for who lives in Fukushima !!!

"Fukushima nuclear plants" are belong to
"TOKYO denryoku (Tokyo electric power company)".
Tokyo denryoku supply servicing for not Fukushima area but around TOKYO area.

Fukushima area belong to "TOHOKU denryoku （Tohoku electric power）" .


As you can see, the people who lives in Fukushima area, none of electricity
service from FUKUSHIMA NUKUCLEAE power plants !!!







I think because of lack of my english skills, hard to understand.
I apologize.

[DarkFish]

Sapporo is not,but
news says ,lack of food and lack of gas around Tohoku area now.
Today north part of Japan were very cold.

I hope they get better situation as soon as possible.


By the way, do you know that Fukushima Nuclear power plant for whose ?


As you know " Fukushima Nuclear power plants" locate in Fukushima prefecture,
but electric are not supply servicing for who lives in Fukushima !!!

"Fukushima nuclear plants" are belong to
"TOKYO denryoku (Tokyo electric power company)".
Tokyo denryoku supply servicing for not Fukushima area but around TOKYO area.

Fukushima area belong to "TOHOKU denryoku (Tohoku electric power)" .


As you can see, the people who lives in Fukushima area, none of electricity
service from FUKUSHIMA NUKUCLEAE power plants !!!







I think because of lack of my english skills, hard to understand.
I apologize.First of all, Arigatou (in my best Japanese) for the update;) Glad Sapporo is fine.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter where the locals get their power from. Power is power, wherever it was produced. And Tokyo has to have some power as well, so why shouldn't they get it from Fukushima?

And don't worry about your English. My Japanese limits itself to "konnichiwa," "sayonara," "arigatou," "biru" and "nihonshu";)

[Skybird]

Always best to play down apocalyptic predictions, even as the plume reaches the US tomorrow, minor increases in radiation probably would be good for us all.:O: In the end, kind of hard to tell millions to pack up and leave in Japan, better to lie and reassure them.

I see the navy has pulled back 50 more miles.
I bet one month'S income that the authorities still have not revealed their real data they had about Three Mile Island. :03: And never will in the forseeable future.

Like the cigarette industry some years ago seriously tried to convince congress hearings that smoking is not damaging health, and claimed the harming effect of the variopus poisons in tobacco never have been proven :yeah:

Meanwhile we know from germany that in the area around nuclear reactors the child mortality is statistically signifcantly increased. The government still insists that this is not so - but exmainations run by idnependent sources and researchers who did their own analysis simply prove the government lying.

And until this very day no body so far has ever come up with an idea of what to do with that radiating nuclear disposal. We do not have - WE DO NOT HAVE - a technology or a knowledge allowing us to forsee tectonic and geological developements in certain areas and layers of sediemnt for the coming tens of thousands of years. We do not have the ability to form containers and sealed capsules to isolate storngly radiating material for such time periods without the material eroding even if not being exposed to mopisture, sgock, chemical agents etc.

We do not even have the certainty that the symbology we use today and by which we paint the words "Caution Radioactivty - Do Not Open" in letters onto the containers that make a sense to us and form words with a meaning, still will be understood in some thousand years from now on.

Many people are uncritical about these facts, and do not take them serious - for their own present comfortability. Truth is, many of them simply do not care a bit about what is coming after their lives have ended - Nach uns die Sintflut.

I am not hysterical or phobic about nuclear energy, but I also refuse to ignore the inherent risks. That'S why I argue for a leave from nuclear energy within a reaosnabvle timeframe - to allow us to create alternative energies, nevertheless not allowing profit interests of the few compromising security interests of the many. No more new reactors being build, I say, and 10-12 years for the lasdt excisting reactors getting switched off one by one, the oldest first, the newest last. We have no solution for the storage problem, the more reactors are being run, the more risks accumulate, low-level intoxication by radioactivity is a problem harming more people then most of us do realise, and the industry behind this business cannot be trusted at all.

I also recommend to research for yourself a bit about the conditions under which radioactive ore gets produced in some parts of the third world. If you do not mind, then you can also safely refuse to worry about blood diamonds, Bophal and and child labour.

Nuclear energy is not really clean energy. In a way it is the most expensive, most costly and most dirty energy there is. You only have to look close enough, and far ahead into the future, instead of just being fixiated on the present moment.

[TLAM Strike]

Nuclear energy is not really clean energy. In a way it is the most expensive, most costly and most dirty energy there is. You only have to look close enough, and far ahead into the future, instead of just being fixiated on the present moment.
You are not looking far enough in to the future. Eventually all the Uranium will decay to lead. :03:

[Type941]

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

[krashkart]

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

As I understand it there is a huge cultural difference. For instance, if someone in Japan accidentally sets their kitchen on fire while they are cooking, they are to apologize to everyone in the neighborhood, and to every one of the emergency workers who came to put the fire out.

If anyone can help clarify that I'd be grateful. I learned about it in a college technical course which had nothing to do with Japanese culture. :oops:

[TLAM Strike]

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

There was a time not too long ago where the Japanese considered them selves a superior race to the rest of the world (it was fashionable at the time to think so). They might have been the one who was right.

A society that survives so long (we are talking nearly an ancient civilization here) intact is bound to be more advanced in some way.

If they weren't so darn conservative and traditionalist they would have conquered the universe by now...

[UnderseaLcpl]

In a BWR the control rods are raised from the bottom instead of dropping from the top.
Semantics. But thanks for explaining.




Under normal circumstances, yes, the application of the control rods will prevent further fission. However, it will have no affect on the heat being present or even continuing after the fission is stopped. The problem is that if the reactor has a large void (negitive) coefficient , the increased heat (when the cooling system fails), may overcome the absorption effects of the control rod.

If we knew that, why wasn't the reactor designed with more control rods, or why wasn't there a system installed to dump non-fissile materials into the core in the event of a power failure? Why not simply place a container full of dirt over the core that will release its contents upon loss of electrical current? I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but you know what I mean, right?


In plain words, the hotter the reactor gets, the less effective the moderator will be. Given enough heat, the control rods may be of minimal use.
Then why design a system that would allow temperatures to increase to that point in the first place without flooding the reactor with neutron-absorbing materials? I figure I'm either missing something here or GE went ahead and designed a system that they knew was not failsafe...or perhaps they are simply incompetent.

[Oberon]

As I understand it there is a huge cultural difference. For instance, if someone in Japan accidentally sets their kitchen on fire while they are cooking, they are to apologize to everyone in the neighborhood, and to every one of the emergency workers who came to put the fire out.

If anyone can help clarify that I'd be grateful. I learned about it in a college technical course which had nothing to do with Japanese culture. :oops:

Wouldn't be surprised, I heard that a lot of the people being pulled out of the wreckage were apologising to their rescuers.

[Biggles]

While the world concentrates on the nuclear disaster, victims of the tsunami and the earthquake elsewhere are having major problems with the winter. Several elderly civilians have died from the cold, according to Swedish newspapers.

This picture breaks my heart, every time I see it...
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/12745826/837/normal/0e6ea888d39d6/JAPAN-QUAKE618754.JPG

[Dowly]

I've heard the culture is pretty much so that everyone tries not to draw attention to themselves.

[Platapus]

Semantics. But thanks for explaining.

Not just semantics. With the control rods under the reactor it takes some power to raise them. Electric power or hydraulics but in any case power. And if the power supply is damaged or interrupted, it is hard to move the control rods. That is one of the weaknesses of BWR. With PWR reactors, the rods come down and can be "powered" by gravity in an emergency.


[/quote] If we knew that, why wasn't the reactor designed with more control rods, or why wasn't there a system installed to dump non-fissile materials into the core in the event of a power failure? Why not simply place a container full of dirt over the core that will release its contents upon loss of electrical current? I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but you know what I mean, right? [/quote]

All great points, but remember these are commercial power plants. Someone has to pay for each engineering "improvement".

While it would be nice to think that safety to the public has no price, but it does. There is a limit on the expense. It is possible to design and build a nuclear reactor that is as close to 100% safe as possible. The problem is that it won't be able to generate enough electricity to pay for itself. Nuclear reactors are very expensive to build.


Then why design a system that would allow temperatures to increase to that point in the first place without flooding the reactor with neutron-absorbing materials? I figure I'm either missing something here or GE went ahead and designed a system that they knew was not failsafe...or perhaps they are simply incompetent.

I don't think they were either. It is very hard to design a nuclear reactor what would "fail safe" and still be capable of producing electricity on a commercial level. Remember that vast majority of nuclear reactors that have ever been produced have operated without any incident.

I would favourably compare the safety record with nuclear reactors with the safety record with hydro dams (they fail) and TPPs (they explode and burn). Nuclear reactors are actually pretty safe. They are similar to commercial aircraft accidents, they don't happen often, but when they do, they are pretty bad and hence newsworthy.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf06.html

One question that I do have, which meshes with your concerns is the lack of safety rods. I would like to know why these reactors were not equipped with safety rods.

Control rods are used to control the fission. Safety rods are used to completely stop the fission in an emergency. If I were king, I would insist that all reactors have a system of independent safety rods capable to halting the fission despite any void coefficient changes.

But that costs money, and it is hard to justify the money to prevent something that rarely happens.

Look at commercial airliners. Why did they change from seats rated for 9gs for seats rated for 6g even though studies show that seats need to be able to withstand more than 6g in an accident?

Or why did the airlines remove the locking armoured cockpit door in the 1990's?

Because the risk did not justify the cost. Or more accurately, the probability of the risk did justify the certainty of the cost.

[razark]

Not just semantics. With the control rods under the reactor it takes some power to raise them. Electric power or hydraulics but in any case power. And if the power supply is damaged or interrupted, it is hard to move the control rods. That is one of the weaknesses of BWR. With PWR reactors, the rods come down and can be "powered" by gravity in an emergency.
Some co-workers and I were discussing this earlier. Why would the reactor be designed like this? The safety factor of being able to drop the control rods in an emergency would seem to outweigh any need for having them rise from the bottom.

Also, would the control rods be able to be raised by an automatic system, such as a spring, with the control system actively holding them back?

[Skybird]

Some co-workers and I were discussing this earlier. Why would the reactor be designed like this? The safety factor of being able to drop the control rods in an emergency would seem to outweigh any need for having them rise from the bottom.

Also, would the control rods be able to be raised by an automatic system, such as a spring, with the control system actively holding them back?
German Die Welt reports that the two chief designers of the reactor admitted that nobody took into account the possibility of earthquakes beyond 8.0 or tsunamis, and that instead they just copied design plans by General Electric without thinking a second thought about it.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article12864224/Reaktor-Konstrukteur-gibt-schwere-Planungspanne-zu.html


Die Konstrukteure hätten im Wesentlichen Pläne der US-Firma General Electric kopiert, sagte der Ingenieur. Die darin vorgesehenen Sicherheitssysteme seien aber nicht für ein Tsunami-gefährdetes Kraftwerk konzipiert gewesen. Trotzdem habe man die Konstruktion fast eins zu eins übernommen. "Wir waren nah dran, ignorant zu sein. Wir haben nicht geprüft, ob die vorgesehenen Maßnahmen ausreichten“, sagte Oguro.

[ASWnut101]

If we knew that, why wasn't the reactor designed with more control rods, or why wasn't there a system installed to dump non-fissile materials into the core in the event of a power failure? Why not simply place a container full of dirt over the core that will release its contents upon loss of electrical current? I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but you know what I mean, right?

Well first, the reactor is normally full of water and steam under very high pressures (around 950-1000 psi). Trying to drop large amounts of any loose material would be very difficult due to the pressure differential, and the fact that liquid water is flowing upwards through the core would mean little "dirt" would actually reach the core and stay there.

Second, BWRs have a steam dryer directly above the reactor core. This is the primary reason why the control rods are inserted from the bottom, as there's a bunch of crap blocking insertion from above. It would also have the effect of blocking any safety material dropped from the top.


Then why design a system that would allow temperatures to increase to that point in the first place without flooding the reactor with neutron-absorbing materials? I figure I'm either missing something here or GE went ahead and designed a system that they knew was not failsafe...or perhaps they are simply incompetent.The reactor is flooded with neutron absorbing materials in emergency situations. A boric acid solution, to be specific. Doesn't change the fact that there's upwards of 10 Megawatts of heat inside the pressure vessel not caused by fission between fuel elements. The reactor was built with all of the failsafes and safety systems shared by other third-generation BWRs.


One question that I do have, which meshes with your concerns is the lack of safety rods. I would like to know why these reactors were not equipped with safety rods.

Control rods are used to control the fission. Safety rods are used to completely stop the fission in an emergency. If I were king, I would insist that all reactors have a system of independent safety rods capable to halting the fission despite any void coefficient changes.Because the fission is completely stopped by the control rods alone. A full scram of the reactor will stop fission. If all of the rods are not raised, the boric acid injection system will start.

The remaining decay heat comes from fission processes within the fuel elements themselves, and is impossible to just stop. You can prevent the elements from interacting with each other, but the rest is all internal.

[razark]

... they just copied design plan by General Electric without thinking a second thought about it.
I find the lack of considering ANY situation requiring an emergency insertion of control rods a mind-blowingly stupid oversight.

Edit: I am referring to everyone involved in the design, both the original designers, and those that copied it.


Second, BWRs have a steam dryer directly above the reactor core. This is the primary reason why the control rods are inserted from the bottom, as there's a bunch of crap blocking insertion from above. It would also have the effect of blocking any safety material dropped from the top.
Ah. That explains that part.

[krashkart]

While the world concentrates on the nuclear disaster, victims of the tsunami and the earthquake elsewhere are having major problems with the winter. Several elderly civilians have died from the cold, according to Swedish newspapers.

This picture breaks my heart, every time I see it...
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/12745826/837/normal/0e6ea888d39d6/JAPAN-QUAKE618754.JPG


If Fukushima Dai-ichi were a coal- or gas-fired plant nobody would care about it. But since it's a nuclear power plant, the imaginable possibilities overshadow the human tragedy that's already in place. :hmmm:

[papa_smurf]

Latest from BBC news:
Cable reaches Japan nuclear plant

Engineers at Japan's stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant have successfully connected a power line to reactor 2, the UN's nuclear watchdog reports.
Restoring power should enable engineers to restart the pumps which send coolant over the reactor.

[RickC Sniper]

German Die Welt reports that the two chief designers of the reactor admitted that nobody took into account the possibility of earthquakes beyond 8.0 or tsunamis, and that instead they just copied design plans by General Electric without thinking a second thought about it.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article12864224/Reaktor-Konstrukteur-gibt-schwere-Planungspanne-zu.html


I don't have the source handy, but I recall reading that these plants were designed to withstand an 8.2 earthquake, and this earthquake was SEVEN times more powerful than an 8.2.

The reactors withstood the earthquake just fine. It was the tsunami wiping out their power that caused this mess.

[papa_smurf]

I don't have the source handy, but I recall reading that these plants were designed to withstand an 8.2 earthquake, and this earthquake was SEVEN times more powerful than an 8.2.

The reactors withstood the earthquake just fine. It was the tsunami wiping out their power that caused this mess.

Think it was re-classified as a magnitude 9.0 once all data had been collected.

[RickC Sniper]

Why are you guys going on about the control rods and their design?

The control rods moved into place automatically when the quake was felt, and that shut down the plants. Residual heat was the problem they could not deal with when they lost cooling ability.

[Takeda Shingen]

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

Absolutely. Could you imagine if this had happened stateside? Talk about total societal breakdown.

[Oberon]

If Fukushima Dai-ichi were a coal- or gas-fired plant nobody would care about it. But since it's a nuclear power plant, the imaginable possibilities overshadow the human tragedy that's already in place. :hmmm:

This... *sigh* So very much this... :nope:

[Reece]

If Fukushima Dai-ichi were a coal- or gas-fired plant nobody would care about it. But since it's a nuclear power plant, the imaginable possibilities overshadow the human tragedy that's already in place. :hmmm:I quite agree mate, The guy in the picture probably lost his wife and family, house, everything, not much to live for, and that is only one example!:cry:

[Gargamel]

Not sure if this is legit or not, as the source is a comedy web-lolz site, but it wouldn't really surprise me if the Japanese were really this effecient.

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/tokiwaroadfixed.jpg

[Torplexed]

As if things weren't bad enough.

Japan's Mt. Fuji was rocked yesterday by a significant magnitude 6.2 earthquake, at a shallow 10km depth. This puts the quake around were likely the mid-crustal magma chamber would be.

The last eruption of Fuji in the 1700's followed a few months after by a magnitude 8.4 quake in a similar location to the recent 9.0 event.

The quake occurred along a transform fault zone that splits off from the subduction zone, and ends/intersects at the Mt. Fuji Magma Chamber.

At this point both USGS and EQECAT both are stating that it is unclear if this is related to potential volcanic activity or not. All webcorders for it are offline for now, so unable to determine if there are aftershocks, chugging, or any tremors.

Based on the historical eruption patterns, and that Mt. Fuji is at the apex of two transform faults, each that intersects with two separate subduction zones, does seem to hint there may be a small potential for volcanic activity.

[Type941]

As if things weren't bad enough.

Japan's Mt. Fuji was rocked yesterday by a significant magnitude 6.2 earthquake, at a shallow 10km depth. This puts the quake around were likely the mid-crustal magma chamber would be.

The last eruption of Fuji in the 1700's followed a few months after by a magnitude 8.4 quake in a similar location to the recent 9.0 event.

The quake occurred along a transform fault zone that splits off from the subduction zone, and ends/intersects at the Mt. Fuji Magma Chamber.

At this point both USGS and EQECAT both are stating that it is unclear if this is related to potential volcanic activity or not. All webcorders for it are offline for now, so unable to determine if there are aftershocks, chugging, or any tremors.

Based on the historical eruption patterns, and that Mt. Fuji is at the apex of two transform faults, each that intersects with two separate subduction zones, does seem to hint there may be a small potential for volcanic activity.

:damn:

Hōei eruption


The Hoei Crater, visible to the right of the peak of Mt. Fuji, was the location of the 1707 AD eruption that spewed ash as far as Edo.
The latest eruption, in 1707 (the 4th year of the Hōei era), was known as the great Hōei eruption. It followed several weeks after the Great Hōei earthquake:
November 11, 1707 (Hōei 4, 14th day of the 10th month): The city of Osaka suffers tremendously because of a very violent earthquake.[2]
December 16, 1707 (Hōei 4, 23nd day of the 11th month): An eruption of Mt. Fuji; the cinders and ash fell like rain in Izu, Kai, Sagami, and Musashi.[3] This eruption was remarkable in that it spread a vast amount of volcanic ash and scoria over a region as far away as Edo.

WIKIPEDIA source.

[Oberon]

I know that another volcano towards the south woke up again the day after the 'quake. She had been erupting beforehand but stopped, then the 'quake happened and she started up again.

It's all interconnected. :dead:

EDIT: Read the Wiki article on Fuji eruptions...she certainly could go up...overdue for a clearing...I just hope that she doesn't, it would be the last thing that Japan needs.

[DarkFish]

I've heard the culture is pretty much so that everyone tries not to draw attention to themselves.*ahem* cosplay *ahem*
;)

[the_tyrant]

*ahem* cosplay *ahem*
;)

over there everybody does cosplay!:D



anyways, did anyone here manage to get their hands on Iodine pills?
you stockpiling them?
how much did you get it for?
from what i hear on the news, its not so useful for people in the US

but lots of my dad's friends are asking for it
apparently, in China iodine pills are not available, people are stockpiling iodized salt

[Dowly]

Soo.. is it still too early for a Tide goes in, Tide goes out -joke? :hmmm:

[HunterICX]

I saw on the news today that more Japanese firemen are heading towards the plant to try to cool it however they can...brave men in my books already especially since in some area around the plant has a radiation level high enough to get your anual dose in 6 hours.

HunterICX

[MaddogK]

Well first, the reactor is normally full of water and steam under very high pressures (around 950-1000 psi). Trying to drop large amounts of any loose material would be very difficult due to the pressure differential, and the fact that liquid water is flowing upwards through the core would mean little "dirt" would actually reach the core and stay there.

Second, BWRs have a steam dryer directly above the reactor core. This is the primary reason why the control rods are inserted from the bottom, as there's a bunch of crap blocking insertion from above. It would also have the effect of blocking any safety material dropped from the top.


The reactor is flooded with neutron absorbing materials in emergency situations. A boric acid solution, to be specific. Doesn't change the fact that there's upwards of 10 Megawatts of heat inside the pressure vessel not caused by fission between fuel elements. The reactor was built with all of the failsafes and safety systems shared by other third-generation BWRs.


Because the fission is completely stopped by the control rods alone. A full scram of the reactor will stop fission. If all of the rods are not raised, the boric acid injection system will start.

The remaining decay heat comes from fission processes within the fuel elements themselves, and is impossible to just stop. You can prevent the elements from interacting with each other, but the rest is all internal.

Is there any reason they couldn't override the turbine trip, to help remove the residual heat ?

...or was the control room also in the basement, next to the backup generators.

[DarkFish]

over there everybody does cosplay!:Dwell at least we did:D
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/SAM_0249.jpg
we used that pikachu suit as punishment (for puking after binge drinking, losing your subway ticket, oversleeping etc.)

[tater]

Good blog by a nuke tech guy.

http://wormme.com/

[Catfish]

By the BBC:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

Nothing to add.


P.S. Our co-worker is safe in Tokyo we are told.

[Madox58]

I saw on the news today that more Japanese firemen are heading towards the plant to try to cool it however they can...

I'd think a line of them takeing a piss on the needed areas is the plan?
:hmmm:

[Bakkels]

I presume making me laugh with that remark is the plan? :nope:

[robbo180265]

By the BBC:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

Nothing to add.


P.S. Our co-worker is safe in Tokyo we are told.

Thats actually from the Daily Mail , which is a newspaper (and I use the term lightly) thats only a step or two up from the Sun.

I would wait until you hear from a more credible source before panicking.

Edit to add latest news from Japan

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79511.html

[Madox58]

Truthfully?
I give a piss less if you laugh or not!
(Pun intended!)
When you see the videos of the wasted water by chopper stuff?
You should be crying!
And I can only wonder WHY it took so long to send in the trucks to spray water.
Last time I looked?
Japan is not that damned big!
I can drive to Texas in less then 16 hours!
And that is a long freaking haul from Ohio!

[robbo180265]

Truthfully?
I give a piss less if you laugh or not!
(Pun intended!)
When you see the videos of the wasted water by chopper stuff?
You should be crying!
And I can only wonder WHY it took so long to send in the trucks to spray water.
Last time I looked?
Japan is not that damned big!
I can drive to Texas in less then 16 hours!
And that is a long freaking haul from Ohio!

With all due respect - when was the last time you drove to Texas after a force 9 quake and a 30 meter tsunami ? How long did it take you then?

And is there the slightest possibility that the Japanese may have thought that their choppers and firetrucks may have been more use looking for survivors of the said quake / tsunami?

[Gargamel]

With all due respect - when was the last time you drove to Texas after a force 9 quake and a 30 meter tsunami ? How long did it take you then?

I think that's the thing most of the rest of the world is forgetting.

While the rest of the world is going "OMGLOLZ FAIL JAPAN!", the Japanese have done an outstanding job in SAR and rebuilding efforts.

So take 5th largest earthquake ever, Huge Tsunami, floods to go with that, A freaking volcano erupts to boot, and a nuclear meltdown, and I'm pretty damn impressed with how resilient that country has been.

If it had been only one, or even two, of those events, I think it wouldn't be half the half the issue that it is, and Japan would be on a healthy path to recovery within a few weeks.

Nobody can beat Mother Nature's "shock and Awe" approach.

[Skybird]

It's easy to be thousands of miles away and demanding the Japanese to be Superman and Jesus in personal union. Mind you, the premier ministre has ordered - ordered - that Tepco shall not allow to withdraw those last 50 workers - which sooner or later probably is a death sentence for them. He will not have easy sleep, I am sure.

Also, today 140 firefighters from Tokyo volunteered - volunteered! - to go to Fukushima and work directly at the cores, to help colling them, and everybody knows that they will pay with their health and sooner or later with their lives. Most of them leave behind families.

Look a bit closer at the human realities before spitting out cheap words.

[Torplexed]

Also, today 140 firefighters from Tokyo volunteered - volunteered! - to go to Fukushima and work directly at the cores, to help colling them, and everybody knows that they will pay with their health and sooner or later with their lives. Most of them leave behind families.



Interesting how some national traits endure through time.

http://teachers.plainfield.k12.in.us/jcraney/Number%20the%20Stars%20Webpages/Kamikaze%20Pilot.jpg

[robbo180265]

Interesting how some national traits endure through time.

http://teachers.plainfield.k12.in.us/jcraney/Number%20the%20Stars%20Webpages/Kamikaze%20Pilot.jpg

You should have a look at the amount of personal sacrifice it took to make Chernobyl safe (ish) especially the "liquidators" and "bio robots"

Without those guys in many cases sacrificing their lives, and certainly their health, Europe would be a very different place right now.

And I'm afraid I do find your comparison in quite poor taste Torplexed.

[robbo180265]

A tiny bit of good news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12793925

"Japan earthquake: Tsunami survivor found eight days on"

[Torplexed]

And I'm afraid I do find your comparison in quite poor taste Torplexed.

I'm quite aware of the lives lost putting Chernobyl down. I recall a PBS show back in the early nineties that went into excruciating details as to what the firemen, helicopter pilots and reactor crew went through. Interestingly enough, Anatoli Zakharov, a fireman stationed in Chernobyl even compared their plight to that of kamikazes.

Twenty years after the disaster, he claimed the firefighters from the Fire Station No. 2 were aware of the risks.

"Of course we knew! If we'd followed regulations, we would never have gone near the reactor. But it was a moral obligation—our duty. We were like kamikaze."

[Madox58]

With all due respect - when was the last time you drove to Texas after a force 9 quake and a 30 meter tsunami ? How long did it take you then?

And is there the slightest possibility that the Japanese may have thought that their choppers and firetrucks may have been more use looking for survivors of the said quake / tsunami?
Humm, Let's see.
Since I traveled all over the U.S. in ALL weather conditions?
Even haveing to duck Tornados at times?
I guess I don't have anything to say.
I guess you must be the expert at traveling short distances in bad weather.
Looking for survivors is great.
BUT if you then expose them to deadly radiation?

That's like saveing me from suicide by Gun shot to the head then
shooting me in the head!

[robbo180265]

I'm quite aware of the lives lost putting Chernobyl down. I recall a PBS show back in the early nineties that went into excruciating details as to what the firemen, helicopter pilots and reactor crew went through. Interestingly enough, Anatoli Zakharov, a fireman stationed in Chernobyl even compared their plight to that of kamikazes.

Twenty years after the disaster, he claimed the firefighters from the Fire Station No. 2 were aware of the risks.

"Of course we knew! If we'd followed regulations, we would never have gone near the reactor. But it was a moral obligation—our duty. We were like kamikaze."

They were the unsung heroes and I read now that the Russian government is trying to cut the compensation that they receive which in my opinion is disgusting.

I'm sorry - maybe I overreacted in my earlier post, I'm just amazed at how this country has had pretty much everything thrown at it and is still fighting.

They deserve our respect.

[DarkFish]

Humm, Let's see.
Since I traveled all over the U.S. in ALL weather conditions?
Even haveing to duck Tornados at times?
I guess I don't have anything to say.
I guess you must be the expert at traveling short distances in bad weather.You really think the weather is the problem? Have you seen any news footage? If your "water spraying truck" isn't able to both swim and push away tons of rubble and debris, it you won't be getting through that area very fast.

[Madox58]

DUH! The Tsunami was not in that area!
Look at the details!

[Torplexed]

I'm sorry - maybe I overreacted in my earlier post, I'm just amazed at how this country has had pretty much everything thrown at it and is still fighting.

They deserve our respect.

Even during the Cold War I always had a grudging admiration for those stoic Slavs. Especially reading about what they endured during the German invasion (Operation Barbarossa). That 1941-45 experience would have shattered most nations. They are a tough lot. :)

[Bakkels]

Humm, Let's see.
Since I traveled all over the U.S. in ALL weather conditions?
Even haveing to duck Tornados at times?
I guess I don't have anything to say.
I guess you must be the expert at traveling short distances in bad weather.
Looking for survivors is great.
BUT if you then expose them to deadly radiation?

That's like saveing me from suicide by Gun shot to the head then
shooting me in the head!

I think it takes some nerve comparing your own experiences to the situation the Japanese people find themselves in. These firefighters might very well die or have their lives significantly shortened by going up so close, without even knowing if what they are about to do will help control the disaster.
But be sure to make a call to the prime-minister of Japan, since you seem to be an expert in disaster management. I think those people deserve some respect, and they certainly don't deserve to be ridiculed by someone thousands of miles away who can't possibly imagine what they are going through.

[Madox58]

I have no disrespect for what they are doing.
And for you to judge me on my thougths?
Your the fool with mis-information!

It's a stone cold fact that everyone is being lied to about the whole situation.
That is the history of those that run those Plants and that has been proven time and time again!
If you want to wear blinders to that?
Whatever Dude!

So by into the lies now.
And watch what happens.

And my Nerve comes from not being one to believe things from CNN.

[Bakkels]

Errr I don't really know what to make of that post (besides the name-calling)
First of all, I don't watch CNN. I'm not from the US and we have our own news channels here. And how am I misinformed? I don't really understand what you're trying to say here..
'Watch what will happen' What do you mean by that?

[tater]

THe air drops of water seem pretty dumb. They need to think a little outside the box. Strikes me they should drop a hose and pump in seawater.

ON a semi-related note, if you are going to build a reactor on the coast in the path of a tsunami, why not just built it underwater. Then, if there is a problem, it's, duh, immersed in cold water. The whole building needn't be underwater, just the bits with say, spent fuel and the containment vessel. You'd still build it to very high standards, obviously, the water would be the last resort, including a manual valve (far enough away that turning it isn't a death sentence) to food various internal areas.

[joegrundman]

i'm convinced all this criticism from Europe and the US is just the motivating factor the japanese need to try and solve this crisis more effectively. They hate being told they are doing it wrong.

I'm sure they will take our helpful "do as we say, not as we do" attitude in the spirit in which it is intended, and unlike me will not be drawn into remembering how highly effective the Mighty USA was after a bit of heavy wind and rain in New Orleans, nor how easily Great Britain grinds to a halt every time a bit of snow falls, or even how efficiently Britain is able to send heroic search and rescue crews to Japan before the British embassy sends them home again for want of paperwork.

where've the rolleyes gone?

imagine a few rolleyes. A whole line of them!

[Type941]

THe air drops of water seem pretty dumb. They need to think a little outside the box. Strikes me they should drop a hose and pump in seawater.

ON a semi-related note, if you are going to build a reactor on the coast in the path of a tsunami, why not just built it underwater. Then, if there is a problem, it's, duh, immersed in cold water. The whole building needn't be underwater, just the bits with say, spent fuel and the containment vessel. You'd still build it to very high standards, obviously, the water would be the last resort, including a manual valve (far enough away that turning it isn't a death sentence) to food various internal areas.

also thought about putting the thing in the water but I suppose there are reasons why they've not done it yet (if people in forum think it, scientists probably do too).

perhaps contamination could be quite bad, since they aren't just putting in water, but mix it with boron. May be that's the issue and as japan probably relies a fair bit on clean seas to feed itself, they may think land is better.

honestly a 20 metre wall around it would probably do the trick just as good, as tsunami is the real problem.


ON another side note, they reported in US there were in 2010 alone 14 near misses and highlighted a lot of issues that were overlooked by NRC. Now that's just US. 14 out of 100 powerplants is a lot.

[Type941]

A freaking volcano erupts to boot

WHAT VOLCANO? :o:stare:

[robbo180265]

WHAT VOLCANO? :o:stare:

It actually started to erupt before the quake/ tsunami, however some of the worlds press are giving the impression that it was triggered by the quake

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/01/japan-volcano-eruption-shinmoedake-evacuations

[Betonov]

THe air drops of water seem pretty dumb. They need to think a little outside the box. Strikes me they should drop a hose and pump in seawater.

ON a semi-related note, if you are going to build a reactor on the coast in the path of a tsunami, why not just built it underwater. Then, if there is a problem, it's, duh, immersed in cold water. The whole building needn't be underwater, just the bits with say, spent fuel and the containment vessel. You'd still build it to very high standards, obviously, the water would be the last resort, including a manual valve (far enough away that turning it isn't a death sentence) to food various internal areas.

An underwater reactor you say

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070620/67541197.html

The Estonians are proposing a construction of underwater reactors, but they'd have to be deep to witstand a tsunami, when the wave reaches shallow water it rises, picking that reactor with it and droping it onto the coast

[TorpX]

@ underwater reactor

Seems like a bad idea. I can imagine radioactive substances constantly leaching into the environment this way. Maintainance, repair and such would be very difficult, if not impossible.

[Type941]

An underwater reactor you say

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070620/67541197.html

The Estonians are proposing a construction of underwater reactors,

I'm from Estonia actually, funny you brought this up. The project discussed is actually pretty far off into future and will take 10+ years to make (probably South Koreans or Areva will build it, Areva building the latest one Finland).

Before this is done, they will hope that lithuanian's build a plant first and estonians will just participate in it. They'll utilize the facilities of the Ignalina powerplant shut down in 2009 under EU terms (it was a chernobyl type reactor, and especially powerful model too).

[Platapus]

designs for Underwater reactors have been around for a while.

Like any other design there are advantages and disadvantages (one of which is cost)

But yes, an underwater reactor should not be dismissed outright.

[tater]

@ underwater reactor

Seems like a bad idea. I can imagine radioactive substances constantly leaching into the environment this way. Maintainance, repair and such would be very difficult, if not impossible.


NOthing would leech out that doesn't with any other secure reactor. The USN has been operating underwater reactors for a while now, too ;).

The "work area" would still be shirtsleeves.

[Gargamel]

It actually started to erupt before the quake/ tsunami, however some of the worlds press are giving the impression that it was triggered by the quake

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/01/japan-volcano-eruption-shinmoedake-evacuations

Yes, but it's hard to imagine that a major earthquake in the region didn't shake some last burps from it. Or maybe not. Still adds to the problem either way.

I remember reading in some of the related articles that Fuji is a) overdue for an eruption and b) shown some signs of life since the quake. But that just could be the whole region trying to resettle. Or it could be Fuji is ready to blow, and then it's just a sign from God that he's tired of all the weird TV they put out. (Just kidding folks)

[zaza]

Look this ,How big tsunami it was.

It was taken from Japan Cost Guard ship Matsushima.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mkzcxnJS8

[Gerald]

A tsunami is enormous and unfathomable forces

[Torplexed]

Look this ,How big tsunami it was.

It was taken from Japan Cost Guard ship Matsushima.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mkzcxnJS8

Amazing.

Certainly getting the impression that our civilization exists at the planet's whim.

[Gargamel]

Look this ,How big tsunami it was.

It was taken from Japan Cost Guard ship Matsushima.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mkzcxnJS8


Really initersting. They must have been in fairly shallow waters since from what I've read, tsunami's are barely noticeable in deeper waters.

[CCIP]

Wow, that is indeed a 10-meter wave. Very uncomfortable watching this, knowing what it will do to the shore minutes later...

[gordonmull]

First of all can I say my heart aches for the folk in japan. It's horrible. They have no certainty that after all the hell they've been through that it might not get even worse.

As for the nuclear issue, I've read a few peoples comments, speculators, know it alls, panickers. I don't know a hell of a lot about power plant construction, I have a basic grasp of the physics, but I do know that there's no highly experienced crew dealing with this, because of the nature of the incident. It could very well go breasts skyward because of that but unless we want to induce meltdowns as practice for preventing them that's the nature of the beast.

BUT we'll have to accept what happens, as decided by the people on the ground at the time. If it goes to hell in a handcart or they turn out to be the guys that saved the day, they'll always be heros in my book.

[Jimbuna]

Let us all hope it turns out well for them :yep:

[Skybird]

What struck me these days is the contradiction in many Westerners' attitude - they become very worried and almolst hysteric about a danger that will never reach or harm them - the radioactivity in Japan. But the much more pressing, much closer imminent threat of nuclear weapons in Iran directed at Western nations - is something that does not cause these people to worry, even may make them to defend Iran's "right" to do so.

:doh:

[Type941]

24h news cycle means they've found on BBC another thing to follow live, i.e. Lybia. No more live updates on Fukashima from there then.

[Gargamel]

Latest update says probably 15k+ dead, and the fire trucks will be needed for months at the reactors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12798579

[tater]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

Drag the line in the middle to compare... wow.

[tater]

Wow.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b0_1300620690

Long, but it's so different near the end when it already very high water...

[Gargamel]

Wow.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b0_1300620690

Long, but it's so different near the end when it already very high water...

I hate it when people try to hand hold a high zoom video camera. If you're going to do that.. brace yourself against something. Or use a wider shot, and don't go into seizures during the shot.

And I don't want to hear anything about them being scared about the approaching wave. They made the choice to stand there and shoot, not go for safety. These people saw what happened in Sumatra, they know what happens. I'm only refering to those who stayed to be cool, and not the tens of thousands of people who got caught in it unawares.

/rant Sorry bad day.

[tater]

I'm not gonna get bent out of shape by the videography skills of someone in the direct face of a tsunami.

[Gargamel]

I'm not gonna get bent out of shape by the videography skills of someone in the direct face of a tsunami.

I will when they choose to stand in the line of fire instead of going for higher ground and then shooting. People that do these types of videos are doing it to post on th................. nevermind... i'll shut up now...

[tater]

For the sake of argument, what if the guy was at the sea wall area on foot? The time from quake to tsunami was minutes. He sought a concrete area on highER ground. Hard to tell if it lead up to a bridge or not... Clearly he survived to post the video. Or do you think he drove to the coast the second the quake ended with a video camera?

[Skybird]

German correspondent rises serious allegations against tepco, saying they use juveniles and homeless people as throw-away workers in the close vicinty of the reactors to cool them.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/weltgeschehen/article12901818/Schickt-Tepco-Obdachlose-ins-havarierte-AKW.html

Have not seen the broadcast myself, but the man himself is reporting for major formats over here, ARD main news for the most I think.

[Jimbuna]

German correspondent rises serious allegations against tepco, saying they use juveniles and homeless people as throw-away workers in the close vicinty of the reactors to cool them.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/weltgeschehen/article12901818/Schickt-Tepco-Obdachlose-ins-havarierte-AKW.html

Have not seen the broadcast myself, but the man himself is reporting for major formats over here, ARD main news for the most I think.

I'd like to see evidence of that because it would create worldwide outrage if it were true :nope:

[Freiwillige]

Well If they were only using the homeless and juveniles I could understand the outrage, But if they were using every able bodied male its heroic Japanese nationalism!

Besides I doubt they are using twelve year old's and in certain cultures 16 is adult.

[Tribesman]

Well If they were only using the homeless and juveniles I could understand the outrage
Looking at pictures of the location it does appear there is a shortage of people who are not homeless.

[tater]

Looking at pictures of the location it does appear there is a shortage of people who are not homeless.

LOL.

Very true, probably a large % of real plant workers are "homeless."

Another reason why the term is so poorly used in general. Presumably skybird's post was meant to mean bums?

[robbo180265]

They don't look like bums and Juveniles in this video:hmmm:

http://video.asahi.com/viewvideo.jspx?Movie=48464141/48464141peevee378318.flv

[Jimbuna]

They certainly don't :hmmm:

[tater]

Given the fact that reaction times from likely epicenters are measured in minutes, I wonder what could be done in the future to mitigate the loss of life?

Watching that sea-wall video leads me to believe that any sort od sea wall is impractical beyond a certain event size (do you build "50 year" seawalls, or 100, or 500, etc?).

Home construction would not have helped much, since a single-family dwelling would not likely be more than 2 stories, and there are images of large boats sitting on top of 2 story buildings from this event, so even if a home survived, the occupants would not. Still, this might mitigate lesser tsunami.

Structures that can withstand lesser wave action might well not do well in quakes... dunno the trade offs there. Road systems designed to move people—FAST—inland might be the way. Have a rule that whenever there is a quake, roads all become one-way going away from the sea, except for emergency vehicles.

[Gargamel]

Structures that can withstand lesser wave action might well not do well in quakes... dunno the trade offs there. Road systems designed to move people—FAST—inland might be the way. Have a rule that whenever there is a quake, roads all become one-way going away from the sea, except for emergency vehicles.

I believe that's how they do in the Key's and other Hurricane prone areas.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51773000/jpg/_51773693_011584245-1.jpg


Yuck.

But the IAEA thinks there is good reason to hope.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12809832

[tater]

Yeah, they do contraflow with hurricanes all over. I was thinking perhaps an automated system of lights that directs people to immediately turn around if they are going the wrong way, then contraflow.

Also, when they rebuild, make sure there are MANY roads running parallel away from the sea.

[Skybird]

The "volunteering" firefighters from Tokyo that I mentioned some days ago, probably were not that much volunteers at all, it now seems. German media report about a dispute between the economic minister of Japan and the governor of Tokyo, the latter complained to the prime ministre of Japan about the firefighters having been forced to accept a marching order to the reactor by threatening heavy penalties on them if they don't go.

German link (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/weltgeschehen/article12914547/Feuerwehrleute-offenbar-zu-Strahleneinsatz-gezwungen.html)

Meanwhile, German Yahoo News has also reported allegations that Tepco abuses homeless people, foreign guest workers, people living on the streets even before the disaster, and even some juveniles, to work in the highly contaminated, radiating centre areas. When they have gotten a serious ammount of radiation, they get fired, without further compensation or assistance. Several nuclear physicists meanwhile said that to their assessment based on the published values, the teams at the reactors will see a lethality rate of 50% in the forseeable future, with the rest dying over a longer period of time after that.

Reports mirroring or even independently confirming the allegations raised by German ARD-correspondent Hetkämper, have started to be published in a number of news sources and private blogs throught German-tongued Europe, in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

Sending people on a suicide mission, is a desperate measurement in a desperate situation. Somebody has to die in order to try to get the job done - that is the brutal truth in all this. I am not sentimental about this. But still, it leaves a sad feeling inside the heart, and a foul taste in the mouth. Tepco seems to plan to not care for the people it has sentenced to death by abusing their weak social position. And compared to Japan's social reality, even the US is a socialistic paradise.

[Tribesman]

Wow fire fighters are forced to fight fires and the earlier throwaway workers cooling reactors is unrelated to the attempts to cool the reactors.
Meanwhile an online news agregating service has repeated a news article and a selection of other news sources and individuals have repeated the news article or come up with ones of their own which may or may not be related to things which may or not be related and may or may not be true :yawn:

[tater]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-17/japan-churns-through-heroic-workers-hitting-radiation-limits-for-humans.html

Radiation exposure levels are measured in millisieverts. Exposure totaling 100 millisieverts over a year is the lowest level at which any increase in cancer is evident, according to the World Nuclear Association in London. The cumulative maximum level for nuclear workers was increased to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts by Japan’s health ministry on March 15.

Career Ending

“Once they have reached that limit, they can’t go in the plant anymore,” said John Price, a Melbourne-based consultant on industrial accidents and former safety policy staffer at the U.K.’s National Nuclear Corp. “You shouldn’t be doing that sort of work ever again,” Price said by phone yesterday.

One plant worker was exposed to 106.3 millisieverts, Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said in a website posting today.

“A worker receiving a dose of 100 millisieverts from these emergency operations will have a future risk of a serious cancer from this dose of less than 1 percent,” said Richard Wakeford, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Manchester’s Dalton Nuclear Institute in the U.K. That compares with a risk of dying from cancer in the absence of this radiation exposure of about 20 to 25 percent, Wakeford said in an e-mail today.

This is remarkably low given some of the numbers the press have been churning out. According to many other reports, it seems like workers might have gotten this kind of dose in a shift, the way they were talking about workers making "existential decisions."

I'm not belittling their efforts, quite the contrary, but any reporters who majored in, say, journalism, and didn't take math, physics, biology, etc, should be edited by someone who has at least a couple clues to rub together (many reports use a dose RATE number instead of a rate as if they were the same, etc—you can be exposed to a HUGE dose rate, for a fraction of a second, for example, and get a minimal dose (this can happen in particle accelerators), press goons just glazed over reading that :) ).

[robbo180265]

First photo's of the workers at Fukushima.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369216/The-Fukushima-Fifty-First-pictures-emerge-inside-Japans-stricken-nuclear-power-plant.html

Their bravery is amazing.

[Jimbuna]

Extremely brave...such is their culture.

[Slyguy3129]

Man when it rains it pours, the earthquake was bad enough without all the addition mess they're having to go through now.

I just hope they get the plants back under control, God knows we don't need another Chernobyl for the rest of human history.

[Jimbuna]

Man when it rains it pours, the earthquake was bad enough without all the addition mess they're having to go through now.

I just hope they get the plants back under control, God knows we don't need another Chernobyl for the rest of human history.

Idoubt...and pray that will happen.

They are a very 'resilient' nation/people.

[tater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfy1CoxrMo

Had not seen this one. Wow.

[Reece]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfy1CoxrMo

Had not seen this one. Wow.
Everytime I see another video I am dumbfounded!! It must have been so horrifying for so many,:wah: and I still have to wonder how they are going to clean up this huge mess!!:cry:

[Torplexed]

Everytime I see another video I am dumbfounded!! It must have been so horrifying for so many,:wah: and I still have to wonder how they are going to clean up this huge mess!!:cry:

I imagine the same way they picked up the pieces after WWII. Slowly and painfully over time with the certain knowledge that Mother Nature could knock it all down again at a moments notice. :-?

[Oberon]

I imagine the same way they picked up the pieces after WWII. Slowly and painfully over time with the certain knowledge that Mother Nature could knock it all down again at a moments notice. :-?

I wonder if they will get the sort of help they got after WWII though? I mean, the biggest amount of US troops in Japan is in Okinawa and they're not exactly popular. I hope that Japan can do this solo...but I have my doubts.

[Torplexed]

I wonder if they will get the sort of help they got after WWII though? I mean, the biggest amount of US troops in Japan is in Okinawa and they're not exactly popular. I hope that Japan can do this solo...but I have my doubts.

Well, if Japan keeps shifting this way meter by meter with every quake, maybe we'll just make them the 51st state and they can apply for federal funding. What's a few bjillion more in debt? :D

[Oberon]

Well, if Japan keeps shifting this way meter by meter with every quake, maybe we'll just make them the 51st state and they can apply for federal funding. What's a few bjillion more in debt? :D

:har::har: Well, if you're going to go bankrupt you might as well do it in style! :salute:

[robbo180265]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfy1CoxrMo

Had not seen this one. Wow.

That is really quite scary, you think the water really can't get any higher and it still does.

News isn't good from Fukushima either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707

I suspect that either a reactor is breached or that the spent fuel has got out of the tank. Either way it's going to make the clean up a lot harder.

[tater]

I've come to the conclusion that if the author of a news story about any of the reactor problems doesn't have a background in nuke-E, radiation tech, physics (ideally health physics), or some other radiation aware profession, you might as well not read anything other than "there are problems with the reactors."

The stories have no understanding of radiation. The routinely (almost entirely, in fact) confuse a dose, with a measured rate. They will talk about a rate accurately, but not mention how long anyone was exposed to it. They do not mention the type of radiation, or the source. They do not put it in a context to other doses people get (just hanging out, or people who fly a lot, etc).

There seems to be a % of responders in Japan right now who themselves are weak in understanding the risks. There was a picture of guys wearing respirator OVER their clothing, for example Got a good seal against the hood, did they?

It's clearly a bad situation, but the press makes every story as bad as possible.

[TorpX]

Everytime I see another video I am dumbfounded!! It must have been so horrifying for so many,:wah: and I still have to wonder how they are going to clean up this huge mess!!:cry:
Most of the country is in pretty good shape. It is not a country wide disaster. It is more along the lines of Hurricane Katrina in the U.S. (apart from the nuclear meltdown). Fortunately, Japan has the resources to rebuild and they were well prepared for this.

I feel bad for the people who live in that area though. I wonder what they will do. If the land and buildings are contaminated who will pay? Will TEPCO but there property? Will the government compensate them? Will insurance cover any of this?

[Torplexed]

That is really quite scary, you think the water really can't get any higher and it still does.

News isn't good from Fukushima either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707


TEPCO has since retracted that statement about a higher level of radiation saying the claim was "not credible" and they "made a mistake." Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if that institution isn't being run by the Japanese equivalent of Homer Simpson.

[Respenus]

TEPCO has since retracted that statement about a higher level of radiation saying the claim was "not credible" and they "made a mistake." Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if that institution isn't being run by the Japanese equivalent of Homer Simpson.

While I agree with your judgement of the whole situation and the company running the nuclear power plants, the last verified radiation levels were 1.000milisieverts per hour. In any case, not something you wish to be hanging around with to verify precisely your readings. Although it does seem that they aren't really competent enough to be running this sort of an operation. The owners that is, as for the workers, my hat's off in their honour. If the original 50 are still there, they, along with all the others, must have been exposed to dangerous levels of radiation (total dosage that is).

[Torplexed]

Well, I think sometime in the near future Japan needs to start investing in a fleet of remotely-controlled bulldozers and helicopters to help bury the site although it probably still needs to cool down a bit more. Kaman builds the K-MAX unmanned copter which has a 6,000-pound lifter. Might be handy for dumping fill.

However, I imagine most every bulldozer and helicopter in Japan is busy elsewhere nowadays.

[tater]

"The 50" are presumably wearing total dose badges. The rate really is sort of meaningless. Did they measure 1000 where they were, or was the monitoring aimed at measuring the dose rate enough ahead that the idea is to prevent walking into the higher rate?

Besides, that 1,000 millisieverts per hour was quoted as "airborne radiation." Huh? How are betas, alphas, gammas, etc floating about on the air? Perhaps they meant airborne contamination? Contamination requires a volume.

If that number published were in fact true they'd be dead. On the spot. It's not a small multiple of what is considered safe, it's drop dead fatal in a few hours. Why? 1000 millisieverts per hour is 100 rem per hour—not breathing it in (contamination), but just zinging through you.

Also the report I read then says that millisieverts per hour is 4X the allowed limit? Huh? The allowed limit is a DOSE, not a dose RATE. 1000 millisieverts for 1 minute. Not a problem. for 14 minutes? You're still below the limit. Total dose warning goes off at 15 minutes (when you've received 250 millisieverts).

Dose rates control how long you can be someplace. Stay a short enough time, and it is no problem.

If you're reading or hearing it through the filter of some journalism major and the story involves science... take it with many grains of salt.

Of course they don't say airborne anyway (the plant people), they say water.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/27_24.html

Presumably if you are standing it it?

[Catfish]

1st report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707

2nd report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12875327

Tepco said it was an error, but it is still at 1000 Millisievert per hour ??!!

"A spokesman for Japan's nuclear watchdog, Hidehiko Nishiyama, said the level of radiation in puddles near reactor 2 was confirmed at 1,000 millisieverts an hour."



Tater wrote:
" ...I've come to the conclusion that if the author [...] doesn't have a background in nuke-E, radiation tech, physics (ideally health physics), or some other radiation aware profession, you might as well not read anything other than "there are problems with the reactors."

You let yourself be governed by people who have much less knowledge about this and other stuff.
But they decide whether to use nuclear energy or not, amongst other vital decisions they know a sh!t of. :D;)

Greetings,
Catfish

[tater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bLc8L84wto

[I-25]

Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if that institution isn't being run by the Japanese equivalent of Homer Simpson.
http://img.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/7/1/1/2/1/1/1/orig-7112111.jpg

[joea]

lol where did you dig that up dude? :har:

[Torplexed]

http://img.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/7/1/1/2/1/1/1/orig-7112111.jpg

Wow. Radiation causes Homer-san's eye pupils to dilate.

[CCIP]

That's not homer, that's MISTA SPARKLE :haha:

[TarJak]

Now even my dog understands what's going on over in Japan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA

[I-25]

That's not homer, that's MISTA SPARKLE :haha:
right on:up:

[Gargamel]

Now even my dog understands what's going on over in Japan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA


:o:o:o:o:o :doh::doh:

wow...... just wow.....

[Castout]

Now even my dog understands what's going on over in Japan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA

I was actually confused at that until somewhere past the middle then oh.

[Skybird]

German media report the Japanese government calls it a "temporary" meltdown now in number 2 (the going surely stopped in the middle of it, eh?). Also, another earthquake in Japan.

[Castout]

They should evacuate more people really. :)

[Gargamel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12877198

So, apparently Tepco reported a radiation level 10,000,000x higher than normal, when the meant to say 100,000. Well, it's only a couple zeros. Good Job Tepco.

They've also switched form salt water to fresh water because the salt water was possibly harming machinery. The logistics of getting fresh water there may be fairly complicated, unless there's a nearby natural source.

[tater]

Water also increases fission since is slows neutrons. They are adding boron to the water I think when possible to moderate neutrons. Course with heating there might be slumping, which brings the fuel closer together (spent fuel ponds).

While still an issue to be dealt with, so far, this worst nuclear disaster in a long time has killed.... no one. Put that in perspective with the vast loss of life to the quake/tsunami.

[Skybird]

While still an issue to be dealt with, so far, this worst nuclear disaster in a long time has killed.... no one.

You are wrong, it already has. Just that the bodies still walk, like hens whose head was cut off. You do not stay inside a zone with a contamination of that level, and do net get affected in your health. Many of the workers there, are already sentenced to death, I'm sure. The intoxication of the environment will affect many thousands more over the coming years - just give it some time to uncover. there is now plutonium found outside the perimeter. Radiation in sweet water 300 miles away. Heavily intoxicated sea water. And at least one ongoing meltdown.

Halleluja.

Offsprings of survivors of the two atom bombs keep on to producing ill and deformed babies until today.


No one killed - really...?

[tater]

You are wrong, it already has. Just that the bodies still walk, like hens whose head was cut off. You do not stay inside a zone with a contamination of that level, and do net get affected in your health. Many of the workers there, are already sentenced to death, I'm sure. The intoxication of the environment will affect many thousands more over the coming years - just give it some time to uncover. there is now plutonium found outside the perimeter. Radiation in sweet water 300 miles away. Heavily intoxicated sea water. And at least one ongoing meltdown.

Halleluja.

Offsprings of survivors of the two atom bombs keep on to producing ill and deformed babies until today.


No one killed - really...?

What is your understanding of radiation health physics?

You seem to have fully swallowed what you are being fed by journalists (known the world over as a group for their aptitude at high energy physics). There are virtually no reports that don't mix up dose rates with doses or vice versa. Some look like they don't know micro from mili. Still others don't understand the difference between contamination and exposure.

Will some of the on the scene workers suffer health effects down the road? I think that is probably certain, though much is their own fault (there was no reason for those guys to have gotten the sunburn they got (that's about as bad as their beta burn was, after all (different mechanism, similar effect), because betas are stopped by a sheet of paper. ANY protection would have protected them. Sending crews into deep puddles with ankle high boots? The cause is ultimately stupidity there. Still, they have a bad sunburn, and a similarly higher risk of a skin cancer.

The exposure levels in general are worse than average for on the scene workers, and nothing to worry about so far for everyone else. So far no non-responders have been exposed to more than what airline pilots might get at high altitude.

Nuclear power—including all the accidents—is grossly safer than coal, and it's even safer than SOLAR in terms of deaths per terawatt produced. If this accident were to kill 10X the number at Chernobyl, nuclear power would STILL be safer. Anti-nuclear hysteria is just that. It's not rational.

[tater]

Coal (world ave) 161 deaths per TWh
Coal (USA) 15 deaths per TWh
Oil 36 deaths per TWh
Natural Gas 4 deaths per TWh
Biofuel 12 deaths per TWh
Solar 0.44 deaths per TWh
Wind 0.15 deaths per TWh
Hydro (europe) 0.10 deaths per TWh
Hydro (world) 1.4 deaths per TWh
Nuclear 0.04 deaths per TWh


10X more deaths than all nuclear accidents up to this point, and it would still be safer than SOLAR.

Why solar deaths? Some are likely from manufacturing accidents, but the vast majority are workers falling off installations that are off the ground (rooftop, etc), either for installation or maintenance). Same for wind (windmills are huge, guys fall sometimes). Coal has pollution, and mining deaths.


Can nuclear power be made even safer than what it already is (the safest power production method)? Sure. Can it be made to prevent this type of problem in ring of fire locations in the future? Certainly. It's nothing more than an engineering problem to be solved. This accident has shown numerous failures to anticipate problems. Still, it has yet to kill anyone. If it does kill, it will be in slow-motion. Is that desirable? No, but a handful of deaths in XX years to cancer are certainly not worse than many certain deaths in mining accidents, etc, ad nauseum. Just because it is theoretically possible to have a large number of deaths under a perfect storm of problems doesn't mean the method is unsafe. Plane crashes are spectacular in killing large numbers at once, yet cars are far more dangerous than airline travel.

In general people are terrible at risk assessment. The press in this case has an axe to grind, IMO, regardless of what proper risk assessment should tell us.

[TLAM Strike]

Anti-nuclear hysteria is just that. It's not rational.

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/8558/fv00169.gif
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5821/fv00170.gif

[Platapus]

Coal (world ave) 161 deaths per TWh
Coal (USA) 15 deaths per TWh
Oil 36 deaths per TWh
Natural Gas 4 deaths per TWh
Biofuel 12 deaths per TWh
Solar 0.44 deaths per TWh
Wind 0.15 deaths per TWh
Hydro (europe) 0.10 deaths per TWh
Hydro (world) 1.4 deaths per TWh
Nuclear 0.04 deaths per TWh



Where did you get those numbers? I always suspected such things, but would love to have a citation.

[Torplexed]

Where did you get those numbers? I always suspected such things, but would love to have a citation.

Here's an article that might help. You do get the feeling that we're more comfortable with the devil we know in the case of coal.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20928053.600-fossil-fuels-are-far-deadlier-than-nuclear-power.html

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2905/humancostofpowersources.jpg

[Tribesman]

What is your understanding of radiation health physics?


It makes you drunk.
headless chickens and intoxicated sea water.

[tater]

The 3 guys who stood in the incredibly radioactive water for 2 hours?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_33.html

All just fine.


LOL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nbEFhPVM_k


Reality check on nuclear hysteria: Japan is looking at over 20,000 people dead from the Tsunami. The dead/missing number I keep seeing is 28,000. Their infrastructure is hosed, so even those with homes might not be able to heat them. Meanwhile, really bad nuclear disasters have killed... no one. They have acutely injured? I think a few guys were injured in the initial explosions. Acute rad injury? None. Will any have a meaningful dose by the end? Likely. Fatal in any short timespans like decades? Unlikely. Even if all the guys working there died it would be noise compared to the rest of the quake/tsunami deaths.

Is it OK to be concerned? Of course. Hysterical? Nope. Remember that all the deaths that come for power production using a more dangerous source are on the hands of the "greens" and other kooks who will respond irrationally to this. Fission isn't perfect, but it's a damn reasonable choice until we have something better.

[Gargamel]

Cracks found in the reactor:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110402/wl_nm/us_japan_quake

And survivors angry at Nuclear focus of disaster relief:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=VTBRA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT