Workers take over media outlet in Venezuela

[redsocialist]

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5954

this is socialism
:yep:

Discuss.

[Takeda Shingen]

Why not look at a country like Sweeden as an example of socialism in rule? What is it with militant socialists and quasi-despotism?

[redsocialist]

because sweden is a social democracy not a socialist country.

[Takeda Shingen]

because sweden is a social democracy not a socialist country.

So in other words, it isn't socialism you are so much interested in as it is dictators.

[redsocialist]

So in other words, it isn't socialism you are so much interested in as it is dictators.

Hugo Chavez is not a dictator, and venezuela is not a dictorship. Your being feed to much propaganda :shifty:

I'm for social democracy but I am a socialist so advocate workers control over production.

Factories are not under workers control in sweden therefore it isn't a socialist country

Factories are under workers control in Venezuela therefore it is a socialist country

[Takeda Shingen]

Hugo Chavez is not a dictator, and venezuela is not a dictorship. Your being feed to much propaganda :shifty:

I'm for social democracy but I am a socialist so advocate workers control over production.

Factories are not under workers control in sweden therefore it isn't a socialist country

Factories are under workers control in Venezuela therefore it is a socialist country

Factories are not under workers' control in either nation. They are under government control; and that control is exactly what the workers in your article are seeking. That is what makes them socialist. The difference is that the Swedes peacefully elected to have this style of economic rule, whereas the Venezuelans have it forced upon them at gunpoint. In Sweden, those same politicians are answerable to the Swedish people. In Venezuela, it is the people who are answerable to the oligarchy, and often through brutal means if one is to agree with Amnesty International (hardly a right-wing organization).

That Hugo Chavez is the de-facto dictator of Venezuela is reality. The illusion of fair elections is the propaganda.

[redsocialist]

Factories are not under workers' control in either nation. They are under government control; and that control is exactly what the workers in your article are seeking. That is what makes them socialist. The difference is that the Swedes peacefully elected to have this style of economic rule, whereas the Venezuelans have it forced upon them at gunpoint. In Sweden, those same politicians are answerable to the Swedish people. In Venezuela, it is the people who are answerable to the oligarchy, and often through brutal means if one is to agree with Amnesty International (hardly a right-wing organization).

That Hugo Chavez is the de-facto dictator of Venezuela is reality. The illusion of fair elections is the propaganda.

LOL you sure have a screwed-up vision of what socialism is and Venezuela. They have it at gun point? :har: They have a democratically elected government. They are not under government control, their system consists of government service, "which is in every nation" except US which can't even provide healthcare. They also elected for Chavez to stay as the president as the people of Venezuela don't won't another Washington puppet banking off they'r countries. Also, as far as "economics", Venezuela has a huge growth in GDP, job creation and the inflation is lowering. If anything Venezuelans enjoy more freedom than in USA. Americans think they are free, but your really in the dictatorship of capital. I have a friend in Venezuela and supporter of the Bolivarian revolution, he lived in USA before, but moved back because he cares about his country, and doesn't want to be ruled by a bunch of thugs from Washington and the IMF. I suggest you do some research on Venezula before making these outlandish claims. Also, please do not use sources from US-funded opposition movements. :up:

[Takeda Shingen]

LOL you sure have a screwed-up vision of what socialism is and Venezuela. They have it at gun point? :har: They have a democratically elected government.

Isn't that the claim of every dictator? 'I'm democratically elected!'

They are not under government control, their system consists of government service, "which is in every nation" except US which can't even provide healthcare. They also elected for Chavez to stay as the president as the people of Venezuela don't won't another Washington puppet banking off they'r countries.

My neighbors are refugees from Chavez's Venezuela. They disagree. Since they lived there, their testamonial outweighs your fanatical rhetoric.

Also, as far as "economics", Venezuela has a huge growth in GDP, job creation and the inflation is lowering. If anything Venezuelans enjoy more freedom than in USA. Americans think they are free, but your really in the dictatorship of capital. I have a friend in Venezuela and supporter of the Bolivarian revolution, he lived in USA before, but moved back because he cares about his country, and doesn't want to be ruled by a bunch of thugs from Washington and the IMF. I suggest you do some research on Venezula before making these outlandish claims. Also, please do not use sources from US-funded opposition movements. :up:

Uh, you are aware that 80% of Venezuela's GDP is through petrolium export, right? That leaves only 20% for in-house economy. In short, those claims are inflated. 30% of the populace lives on less than $2 per day. Average per capita GDP is around $13k (85th in the world). I mean, I found that through a 30-second google search. What was that about doing some research?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela

QED

[redsocialist]

Isn't that the claim of every dictator? 'I'm democratically elected!'



My neighbors are refugees from Chavez's Venezuela. They disagree. Since they lived there, their testamonial outweighs your fanatical rhetoric.



Uh, you are aware that 80% of Venezuela's GDP is through petrolium export, right? That leaves only 20% for in-house economy. In short, those claims are inflated. 30% of the populace lives on less than $2 per day. Average per capita GDP is around $13k (85th in the world). I mean, I found that through a 30-second google search. What was that about doing some research?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela

QED

Your "refuge" friends are either petti-bourgeois or part of the 20 percent of bourgeois when the country was under Perez, who profited off the oil and was found guilty then fled to the US "like most US-backed dictators". Yes the Venezuelan exiles are everywhere. In Venezuela is a media war. The private media is constantly "in alliance with the US state department", demonizing Chavez, staging events, and the CIA even tried to assinate him in a coup in 2002. IMF/World bank hates democracy. Before Chavez inflation was near 70 percent, now it has greatly decreased. Also, the bolivar is the currency not the peso. My friend actually lives there and laughs at the exiles, and gringos who believe this garbage they're fed, when he can say/do more against his government than Americans can i theirs. In USA can you go around planning assassination of your president, or advocating death of your presidents? Of course not, this is what RCTV, or the other us-backed media does constantly. Workers control is alive in Venezuela, and the people will not take crap from either the US/IMF or any other imperialist institutions. They are on a independent path in alliance with other several Latin American countries. You will see Latin America turn RED. Also the rest of the world laughs at Americans believing what they do especially about Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. Also Hugo Chavez is advocating for similar democratic participatory movements, and people are following the example of the Bolivarian revolution. Personally, I think the people should smash the bourgeoisie, because it is a revolution. The only difference is they are doing it peacefully and democratically. And again, socialism is not government control, socialism is any economic theory/practice advocating workers control of the means of production, via interdependently or through the state. Neoliberalism destroyed Argentina (via privatizing all assets through banks/IMF loans, and they want to do the same with Venezula. Hugo Chavez and the venezulan people say no, and that is why all that propaganda is against him. Socialism vs neoliberalism, and socialism is winning.

[August]

Your "refuge" friends are either petti-bourgeois or part of the 20 percent of bourgeois when the country was under Perez, who profited off the oil and was found guilty then fled to the US "like most US-backed dictators". Yes the Venezuelan exiles are everywhere. In Venezuela is a media war. The private media is constantly "in alliance with the US state department", demonizing Chavez, staging events, and the CIA even tried to assinate him in a coup in 2002. IMF/World bank hates democracy. Before Chavez inflation was near 70 percent, now it has greatly decreased. Also, the bolivar is the currency not the peso. My friend actually lives there and laughs at the exiles, and gringos who believe this garbage they're fed, when he can say/do more against his government than Americans can i theirs. In USA can you go around planning assassination of your president, or advocating death of your presidents? Of course not, this is what RCTV, or the other us-backed media does constantly. Workers control is alive in Venezuela, and the people will not take crap from either the US/IMF or any other imperialist institutions. They are on a independent path in alliance with other several Latin American countries. You will see Latin America turn RED. Also the rest of the world laughs at Americans believing what they do especially about Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. Also Hugo Chavez is advocating for similar democratic participatory movements, and people are following the example of the Bolivarian revolution. Personally, I think the people should smash the bourgeoisie, because it is a revolution. The only difference is they are doing it peacefully and democratically. And again, socialism is not government control, socialism is any economic theory/practice advocating workers control of the means of production, via interdependently or through the state. Neoliberalism destroyed Argentina (via privatizing all assets through banks/IMF loans, and they want to do the same with Venezula. Hugo Chavez and the venezulan people say no, and that is why all that propaganda is against him. Socialism vs neoliberalism, and socialism is winning.

So now you have a Venezuelan friend too? That's convenient.

[Takeda Shingen]

Your "refuge" friends are either petti-bourgeois or part of the 20 percent of bourgeois when the country was under Perez, who profited off the oil and was found guilty then fled to the US "like most US-backed dictators". Yes the Venezuelan exiles are everywhere. In Venezuela is a media war. The private media is constantly "in alliance with the US state department", demonizing Chavez, staging events, and the CIA even tried to assinate him in a coup in 2002. IMF/World bank hates democracy. Before Chavez inflation was near 70 percent, now it has greatly decreased. Also, the bolivar is the currency not the peso. My friend actually lives there and laughs at the exiles, and gringos who believe this garbage they're fed, when he can say/do more against his government than Americans can i theirs. In USA can you go around planning assassination of your president, or advocating death of your presidents? Of course not, this is what RCTV, or the other us-backed media does constantly. Workers control is alive in Venezuela, and the people will not take crap from either the US/IMF or any other imperialist institutions. They are on a independent path in alliance with other several Latin American countries. You will see Latin America turn RED. Also the rest of the world laughs at Americans believing what they do especially about Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. Also Hugo Chavez is advocating for similar democratic participatory movements, and people are following the example of the Bolivarian revolution. Personally, I think the people should smash the bourgeoisie, because it is a revolution. The only difference is they are doing it peacefully and democratically. And again, socialism is not government control, socialism is any economic theory/practice advocating workers control of the means of production, via interdependently or through the state. Neoliberalism destroyed Argentina (via privatizing all assets through banks/IMF loans, and they want to do the same with Venezula. Hugo Chavez and the venezulan people say no, and that is why all that propaganda is against him. Socialism vs neoliberalism, and socialism is winning.

The statistics I posted and linked to say otherwise. Since you have nothing more but rhetoric, and of the hysterical variety at that, I think we're about done here.

[redsocialist]

The statistics I posted and linked to say otherwise. Since you have nothing more but rhetoric, and of the hysterical variety at that, I think we're about done here.

There are other economic sources that prove the socialist model is working. I was explaining the situation, through all the anti-chavez propaganda. I would beleive someone who lives there now vs someone who moved, right when chavez took power.

[redsocialist]

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5971

[redsocialist]

So now you have a Venezuelan friend too? That's convenient.

Yes I have comrades all over the world.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes I have comrades all over the world.

Where are you from? Also, your link provides no hard statistics. Of course there is little inequality in Venezuela; there is no incentive for economic growth or personal gain. History teaches us that the people will eventually grow weary enough of this to revolt.

[Oberon]

My money is on Belgium. :yep:

[Penguin]

good for them. I hope they won't be closed down when they oppose the ruling elite, as this happened to other media outlets....


[regarding Venezuela + Sweden]Factories are not under workers' control in either nation. They are under government control;

no mate, most factories/companies in Sweden are private enterprises. In fact the elected government is centre/right (in European terms) and they did a lot of privatization of government-owned companies in the last years - Alsolut Vodka being the most prominent. The swedish state used to have a lot of influence on the economy, however.


In Venezuela is a media war. The private media is constantly "in alliance with the US state department", demonizing Chavez, staging events


she said it better than me:

Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter.




he can say/do more against his government than Americans can i theirs.


that's why demonstrations in Venezuela are being dispersed or are declared illegal? If you think this is only burgeoise media propaganda, check out leftist sources like indymedia and read what (left) opposition voices report there about demonstrations. Guess, being against the government makes them counter-revolutionary and so a liable target for being shot at/beaten down...



In USA can you go around planning assassination of your president, or advocating death of your presidents?

I'm no US citizen, but I think making plans to kill someone isn't exactly illegal - the execution of such plan is...;)

Advocating death, here is a song about someone who wishes death to Bush: f bush like his father did ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1571460)
indirect link, because this burgeoise, fascist, counter-revolutionary board censors the f-word :D
(maybe not safe for everyone's work)
the band is still not in prison...

[CCIP]

I'm no US citizen, but I think making plans to kill someone isn't exactly illegal - the execution of such plan is...;)..

Oh no, it's illegal and in a big way. Of course that depends on the definition of "plans" - however a serious intention with a means to do it is going to land you in jail for a looooooooooooooong time. See all these would-be terrorists convicted recently.

Likewise, uttering threats, especially in person, can be taken very seriously indeed.

[frau kaleun]

Oh no, it's illegal and in a big way. Of course that depends on the definition of "plans" - however a serious intention with a means to do it is going to land you in jail for a looooooooooooooong time. See all these would-be terrorists convicted recently.

Likewise, uttering threats, especially in person, can be taken very seriously indeed.

Yeah, there's a big difference between wishing someone were dead, or wanting to kill them, and making plans to do so. Making plans to carry out a killing demonstrates an intent to kill, not just wishful thinking.

[Penguin]

Yes, I didn't get this exactly right.
I was under the impression that the charges against those Hutaree nuts were dropped, because they didn't execute their plan. I checked, and in fact they are only out on bail, but the charges of Seditious Conspiracy are still in place.
But I think they still have to prove the intent. For example: wouldn't it be legal if someone made a map of the route which a politician takes and mark a building, saying: "place sniper here"?
I'm not too sure about this either, but afaik they have to prove that you were willing to enforce it in reality.

Regarding threats, I think there is a difference if you utter it directly towards someone, or if you say:"Kill all people with yellow shirts!" - as the second example wouldn't adress an individual directly.
Guess it's not only semantics if you say"I wish you would drop dead!" or say "I will drop you!"....:03:

[Catfish]

SWEDEN A SOCIALIST COUNTRY ?!
:rotfl2::rotfl2:

Any one watch too much Fox news ? ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

SWEDEN A SOCIALIST COUNTRY ?!
:rotfl2::rotfl2:

Any one watch too much Fox news ? ;)

I don't watch any Fox News. But Sweden does have a higher degree of government control. My point was that since this seems to work well for Sweden, and since the people have democratically elected their leaders and chose to have this type of government, why do militant socialists not hold up Sweden as an example of socialism being both sustainable and compatible with democracy? Why is there always the want for dictatorship and oligarchy?

I am not exactly sure how you were able to read my comment as being pejorative. I was actually holding Sweden up as an example of functional socialism.

[Dan D]

I don't watch any Fox News. But Sweden does have a higher degree of government control. My point was that since this seems to work well for Sweden, and since the people have democratically elected their leaders and chose to have this type of government, why do militant socialists not hold up Sweden as an example of socialism being both sustainable and compatible with democracy? Why is there always the want for dictatorship and oligarchy?

I am not exactly sure how you were able to read my comment as being pejorative. I was actually holding Sweden up as an example of functional socialism.

I think you guys have a language problem which I would describe like this:
"Socialist" in Europe or at least in Germany is understood differently, more in the sense of someone being radical who want to overthrow any democratic form of government, like e.g. in "Socialist Republic of East-Germany", it has an almost insulting tone like "Communist pig".

Sweden, that would be "Social-Democrats" in Europe, moderate left from center, left but still mainstream, not undemocratic, more like that. To describe Sweden as a "socialist" country, that sounds just weird to Europeans because it gets misunderstood.

It is one of those little cultural gaps between the US and Europe imo.

[Takeda Shingen]

I think you guys have a language problem which I would describe like this:
"Socialist" in Europe or at least in Germany is understood differently, more in the sense of someone being radical who want to overthrow any democratic form of government, like e.g. in "Socialist Republic of East-Germany", it has an almost insulting tone like "Communist pig".

Sweden, that would be "Social-Democrats" in Europe, moderate left from center, left but still mainstream, not undemocratic, more like that. To describe Sweden as a "socialist" country, that sounds just weird to Europeans because it gets misunderstood.

It is one of those little cultural gaps between the US and Europe imo.

Ah, well that explains it. My apologies, then; I didn't mean to imply that Sweden was not a liberal democracy. It's leaders are legitimately elected, which is why I was trying to contrast it with Venezuela.

[Catfish]

Hello,
no, i am sorry. It was rude to post it that way.
It is just that i confuse US-american views on what is socialism, with european ones. My apologies.

I recently came about an article where they said the US were not a democracy, but a constitutional republic :hmmm:
And not insinuating someone would be watching Fox News, would be as worse as the "Bild-Zeitung" in Germany or the "Sun", in England :D

Greetings,
Catfish

[DarkFish]

I think you guys have a language problem which I would describe like this:
"Socialist" in Europe or at least in Germany is understood differently, more in the sense of someone being radical who want to overthrow any democratic form of government, like e.g. in "Socialist Republic of East-Germany", it has an almost insulting tone like "Communist pig".

Sweden, that would be "Social-Democrats" in Europe, moderate left from center, left but still mainstream, not undemocratic, more like that. To describe Sweden as a "socialist" country, that sounds just weird to Europeans because it gets misunderstood.

It is one of those little cultural gaps between the US and Europe imo.Ehm, not exactly. At least not in the Netherlands. Maybe it is like that in Germany, but please don't say it's the "European" meaning.
In the Netherlands, socialism generally means democratic socialism. See for example the Dutch Socialist Party (I usually vote for them). I have never seen them advocate any dictatorship.

In fact, what you describe as the "European" viewpoint, is IMO more like the US view on socialism. The US generally see socialism as the kind of "socialism" in Venezuela etc. while at least here in the Netherlands we see it as democratic socialism. The "dicatorship-socialism" is usually called communism here.

[XabbaRus]

Workers in charge of production..well that worked great in the USSR didn't it?

When I hear about workers in charge of production I think lunatics in charge of the asylum.

Seriously I work in the manufacturing industry and though I respect the guys in the workshop when I listen to them about how they think the company should be run and how it should be managed quite a few of them are just unrealistic and if they were in charge they would take the company down in no time.

[Catfish]

Hello,
Xabbarus you wrote:
" ... Workers in charge of production..well that worked great in the USSR didn't it? ..."

Really, there were no workers at the controls of power in the USSR. They wanted to make it look like it, but they were the same elitist egoists, governments consist of all over the world.


" ... When I hear about workers in charge of production I think lunatics in charge of the asylum. ..."

Define "workers". There are not so much people in German who would call themselves that way, even if they are nothing else. It is just that in the 1970ies the government was able to make the people believe that there were no different classes anymore, and everyone would be able to rise to whatever he wanted - just like the rusted "american dream". And they still believe it, have no money and are assured that this is the right thing and all want the same, and the best, for them and for all. Just like the church did, in former times.

Right now they give a play they call democracy at the political theatre, to divert of who really is in charge of everything. I'd just say we should fire the politicians and elect our industrial bosses and bank managers directly, spares a lot of money with no politicians and lobbyists anymore :stare:


" ... Seriously I work in the manufacturing industry and though I respect the guys in the workshop when I listen to them about how they think the company should be run and how it should be managed quite a few of them are just unrealistic and if they were in charge they would take the company down in no time. ..."

I think a lot of those workers and partially high-skilled and trained employees who are currently not in charge would not be bad at all, in leading positions. It is just the aforementioned egoistic elitist alpha animals will just not let them pass their level.

Especially in politics they will always get away with the same scam number, of being the "great old man", while they are nothing more than egoistic criminals, and anti-social in every imaginable way.
("social" here meant as really feeling and acting responsible, for anything)

Greetings,
Catfish

[XabbaRus]

Ah my first sentence was sarcastic.

My statement was one based on experience.

I'm not saying that not all workers are incapable of rising up and some of them do and are very good when they rise up as they bring some level headedness to a business and way of doing things.

However, and whether it is due to lesser education or less interest in the wider workings of an organistation when I hear their ideas although it makes sense from their position in reality what they proposed wouldn't work.

[Hottentot]

Seriously I work in the manufacturing industry and though I respect the guys in the workshop when I listen to them about how they think the company should be run and how it should be managed quite a few of them are just unrealistic and if they were in charge they would take the company down in no time.

Reminds me of politics and about pretty much everything, actually. No matter what you do or how you do it, there are always people who know how to do it better. Or at least they think they do. In some cases it might even be true, but in many others they seem to be the people who think the money comes from a bank and the electricity comes from a socket.

And of course sometimes complaining just makes us feel better. :DL