Why the "Beta patch" for TMO 2.0 is a Beta

[Ducimus]

Ordinarily id post this in the TMO thread, rather then attention whore myself with a new one, but i need an idea of how people feel, hence a poll.


Anywho, why is the "beta patch" a beta?

Because i couldn't make up my mind on a design change that is fundamental to the TMO mod. That design change is the removal of underwater detection for aircraft, for much of the war.

Current situation:
Aircraft can detect the player while submerged if the weather and player depth permits.

Situation as changed in the Beta patch:
Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944. At that point, some aircraft change over to a visual sensor that behaves as before. Allowing for submerged detection if weather and player depth permits.


Why would i consider changing the status quo on aircraft visuals?

1.) It's been my thought that shallow water operations are more dangerous then they should be. As it is, if you get caught in shallow water in the right conditions by aircraft, your pretty much hosed. And there's a lot of shallow areas to traverse.

2.) It's also been my thought that the water is too transparent. The water transparency i adjusted so that you could barely see the silloute of your sub at 160 feet. While this has no bearing on the AI's actual sensors in any way shape or form, this adjustment was made for the sole reason of the inevitable post of "OMGWTF! There's no way a plane could see me at that depth". Well, i made it so you could see yourself, It's very much a placebo. (Yes, i think this far in advance on some things) Is the water transparency realistic? In some areas, perhaps, but i think it's just a little overdone. The transparency level in the beta patch, is *about* where i think it should be at. Could probably use a little adjustment. Yes I realize this is all graphical and eyecandy in nature, but there you have it. I have considered it at length.

3.) The way visual detection works, it could probably better be served as MAD. (think of this in terms as "the most correct" answer on a mulitple choice test) Of course this means sacrificing normal submerged visual detection, and thereby eliminates the main reason to fear aircraft for most of the war.


Why not just make an optional mod?
Now, i could always cheese out and make one visual schema or the other an optional mod, but truthfully, i dislike making optional mods because

a.) They create more work for me to do. (because you have to make them, and then maintain them. The Aft deck gun mod is very high on my excrement list, but its not going away)

b.) There's already lot of mod overlaying mod with conflicting files. It's always been my personal opinion that it's bad practice to overlay mods on top of mods with file conflicts. However, modern versions of JSGME make this easier and less prone to some mod screwups with the end user, and it's become the accepted norm in the community out of neccessity. What's more, with my own work that i do internally, i overlay files all the time because its easier to make and revert changes. My thought has been that, I know what i'm doing, but the trouble is, not all end users do. So with my own published work, i think i should strive to try to keep the overlaying of mods down to a bare minimum.

Combine points A and B, and you can pretty much guess that I've never been a big fan of making TMO optional mods.


At any rate, vote what you think if you care. I'll let this subject float around for awhile before i act on it. Eventually, i have to finalize the next update to TMO. Unfortunately, i strongly suspect it will be without Captain America's interior work (officers country if you remember). Haven't seen hide nor hair of the man. Can't say i blame him if hes moved on to newer hobbies, modding does get old after awhile.

[Jan Kyster]

:hmmm: really don't know what to vote...

Been playing the patch since release and couldn't be happier, but I don't understand this part:

"Situation as changed in the Beta patch:
Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944..."?

Are you saying that even at PD, planes will not detect us, i.e. we're "panicing" and crashdiving to 80m for nothing? :88)

One pre-patch thing I do remember was a situation, where we were at 140m with planes all over the place precision bombing us in the middle of the night.
That was a game-breaker for me...


There must be a middle way between the (if true) no underwater detection and the X-Ray situation?

[keltos01]

I read "take her deep" I think it was recently, on their last patrol they were submerged and heard a buzzing noise on the hull coming and going, then at one point WHAM ! depth charges hitting them !

The USN recons it must've been one of the first MAD equipped IJN planes flying over that they heard !

read the IJN mission to japan 1946 MAD report :

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7915/mads.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/mads.jpg/)

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4193/mad2p.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/mad2p.jpg/)

delivered in April 1944

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200B-0504-0540%20Report%20E-14.pdf

keltos

[ReallyDedPoet]

I have always liked this with Trigger :yep:, I voted to keep it as is, but would not be to bent out of shape :DL if it was more historically accurate.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm with you in feeling both ways. I've seen the bottom in water that was around 80-100 feet deep, but only a couple of times. In Lurkers OM he also allowed planes to see fairly deep, and it made North Sea operations unhistorically difficult.

That said, the North Sea and the Pacific are far different. Sorry I can't help more, but I really can see the arguments for both sides.

I did, however, vote for the change, as my own personal playing abilities aren't all that great, and I need all the help I can get.

[Jeffg]

I think your ideas are very valid and go with them. I know that a lot of subs were caught in shallow water and they were able to get away so in game should have the same chance.I would love to have seen Capt America's mod go thru and I have emailed him without replies also.

JeffG

[Armistead]

I think the issue for many of us is using RSRD. Not sure how it effects aircraft visuals or bomb load, but it obviously does. Simply, the killer planes of TMO alone are nil. After playing RSRD for a few years, I went to TMO alone..and I was back to hating planes, but I miss those, RSRD changes that. Also, never notice any deep dropping bombs until later in the war with RSRD.

I'm to the point of boredom in many aspects and want the game as hard as possible, yet playable. Almost always I can blow entire convoys up at will.

I would rather play the game where I have to really think, wait and attack under the best conditions. This may be daunting for newer players, but my guess is the vets here are sinking 2-3 million tons per career.

I know you hate stacking mods and I'm a mod stacker, but a megamod is ..how many smaller mods in one, hundreds. I sure wish you would make optional mods to go over RSRD to at least use TMO harder settings, if not harder.

I enjoy being in my sub with no cams and charges falling like rain if I goof and get caught in my attack.

[Dignan]

I voted to incorporate the beta patch changes. I think it provides the best compromise. You can still easily get caught off guard on the surface and with the slower diving times of TMO it makes for some close calls when aircraft are spotted. Incorporate the beta!!!

[jldjs]

I vote for a change and trust that Duci's change will be an improvement .

[Hylander_1314]

I like the idea of the change! TMO has been my mod of choice since I first got back into SH4 2 years ago. Every little tweak that has been added has been great.

I vote to have it added, as I hate assignments in the Java Sea and other places where deep water evasive tactics work.

[Ducimus]

Well, thats' what id call a landslide vote.

God help me, i started fixing something that's been bugging the piss out of me for a very long time this morning. We'll see how long i last before i burn out again. Right now, all i intend to do is fix minor crap, and finalize the patch.

But i have another dumb question:

That Uboat Radio room i hodgepodged and sliced in. If i were to ever do another full revision update, would you:

A.) miss it if i took it out,

or

b.)would you like to see it expanded on?

I got a hair brain idea on how i might be able to make it into a full on separate compartment. Not sure if it will work, but it might.

Frankly i don't care, if it's in or not. Id just as soon as delete it because it would make things clash less, and use less resources.

[Jan Kyster]

That Uboat Radio room... would you.. miss it if I took it out...See, I really need to get out some more. From the command room, I mean. Haven't ever noticed that room... :oops:

Now I'm not in a position to give you any advice, but you really should do what you find is working best for you. :D
I'm certain that 1) you'll never hear any complaints and 2) we're in good hands!

Things flavoured to your taste has always worked very fine. At least for me! :up:



And in case of imminent burn-out danger, here's a cure:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1p8aba-ViNQ/TNITLIofQMI/AAAAAAAAABY/HEW7eEcaFOI/s1600/Linie_Aquavit_Shot.jpg

Standing by for shipping out...

[razark]

That Uboat Radio room i hodgepodged and sliced in. If i were to ever do another full revision update, would you:

A.) miss it if i took it out,

or

b.)would you like to see it expanded on?

I got a hair brain idea on how i might be able to make it into a full on separate compartment. Not sure if it will work, but it might.
I never use it. Perhaps if it actually did something, it would be different, but I don't see any reason to go there, and the u-boat interior in a fleet boat just doesn't quite seem right. I was really hoping to see Captain America's interior someday.

[virtualpender]

I agree - Captain America's fully realized officer's country would be amazing but I don't think there is much use for the kitbashed radio room as is, especially if removing it will free you up to work on other bits.

I know I speak for all of us when I say "Welcome back!" We'll take any bit of modding we can get from your overloaded brain for as long as we can get it! :D

[Ducimus]

Well, i wont be doing any interior bits just yet. Just putting the idea out there.

More Focused on finalizing this patch ive left on permanent beta status for im guessing half a year now.

edit: As soon as im done fixing some of the enviromental water colors, i think ill attempt to play it for awhile. Thats usually when i find something else i need to fix.

[Hylander_1314]

As far as a radio room, or Captain's Quaters type thing goes, unless it serves a real purpose, why bother? If you could go there, and get reference data, like in SH-1 where you could see the calender date, and the moon phases, it would be great. It's nice to know what the moon will be like for that night, as it greatly affects how one sets up night attacks.

Just my 2 bits. (adjusted for inflation), and I'm a practically minded player. Bells and whistles are nice, but unless they contribute to something more than eye candy, I have no need for them personally.

Also, no sense wasting time on something and burning out if there are more pressing things that could really use the attention.

[Ducimus]

Things flavoured to your taste has always worked very fine. At least for me! :up:


Heh, has worked for a lot people apparently. It's a little disconcerting when the mod your working on reach's an audience as far as Korea. ( Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fesheep.net%2F244)) . I say it's disconcerting because eventually, I'm going to make a decision that will be a royal screw up, and EVERYBODY is gonna know it. I've been told people in France and other places play it too. I just googled around and saw people talking about the mod in places id never think they'd be discussing submarine sims. I guess it's not called the "world wide web" for nothing, eh?

LOL, it just occurred to me that some of my past acquaintances on subsim, must think i have an ego the size Texas. Heh, well im glad people like the mod, but i never wanted a large audience. Espeically when i think of all the things that could have been done better.

[Bubblehead1980]

Heh, has worked for a lot people apparently. It's a little disconcerting when the mod your working on reach's an audience as far as Korea. ( Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fesheep.net%2F244)) . I say it's disconcerting because eventually, I'm going to make a decision that will be a royal screw up, and EVERYBODY is gonna know it. I've been told people in France and other places play it too. I just googled around and saw people talking about the mod in places id never think they'd be discussing submarine sims. I guess it's not called the "world wide web" for nothing, eh?

LOL, it just occurred to me that some of my past acquaintances on subsim, must think i have an ego the size Texas. Heh, well im glad people like the mod, but i never wanted a large audience. Espeically when i think of all the things that could have been done better.


You're kind of modest duci lol, TMO is an amazing mod, esp since it's a one man op.

I like the MAD sensor as the poll shows most of us do.Also, keep the captains cabin and radio room please.I know its eye candy but its nice to have another compartment, even if its a pseudo one, until Captain America returns(if he does) and finishes his project.Nice to have a place to "hang" until contact is made then can move from the cabin tot he control room to the conning tower and to the bridge if needed, an immersion thing but it adds to the game in my opinion.

[Ducimus]

TMO is an amazing mod, esp since it's a one man op.
.

Not entirely, i did have some (or a lot) help in various parts of it. Interiors, torpedo textures, and the UI graphics is a great example of that.

[Jan Kyster]

...when i think of all the things that could have been done better.That's your curse. The rest of us are ignorants and busy enjoying what we actually got.

Not entirely, i did have some (or a lot) help in various parts of it...Yeah, the credits list in TMO manual is incredible. Creme-de-la-creme! :up:

Originally I would have said something like "Your package has always given me endless hours of fun", but even as a non-native english speaking guy, I know there's something not quite right with that phrase... :hmmm:



But reason for posting is this little list of things I would like in TMO 2.1 :D

Longer gun range! It is very cool to be shelled from +10km range to enemy :88)
Agents reports! Long list of historic messages to be merged into to messages.txt.
Tater & Co's merchant pack! Shimmering or not - this is the best stuff!
YamatoForever destroyer packs! Great ships and great conversion by YF!
Nagato and Myoko mod
AOTDMadMax's packs
Narwhal - the new one!
Large life boat by Privateer
Destructible factories... would be the coolest missions ever: bombard this!

Subron 50 - would really like to see this in the TMO package.

Surcouf?? after all she was on her way to join the USN!



OT - I promise never ever to pester you again with this, but have a tour and please rethink my offer. It is good medicine: http://www.linie.com/

[Ducimus]

Longer gun range! It is very cool to be shelled from +10km range to enemy

Excellent Idea! I'll actually get to work on that when i get home. I hit a wall this morning of "ok.. thats done... now what ?". This is doable.

Agents reports! Long list of historic messages to be merged into to messages.txt

Sounds like a mod somewhere?

Tater & Co's merchant pack! Shimmering or not - this is the best stuff!
YamatoForever destroyer packs! Great ships and great conversion by YF!
Nagato and Myoko mod
AOTDMadMax's packs
Large life boat by Privateer


This all sounds like "Major revision/addition" stuff. Not, something small enough to be considered part of a patch.

Narwhal - the new one!
No, i will not (and cannot) include this. Its a subsim donation download and I don't care to backstab the powers that be.

Destructible factories... would be the coolest missions ever: bombard this!
Huh? Link please.


Subron 50 - would really like to see this in the TMO package.
I'd have to create my own. This is alot to ask for.

Surcouf?? after all she was on her way to join the USN!

Creating a TMO compatible version is on my mental to do list. But it will not be included. A.) I didn't really check and ask. and B.) its beyond the scope of a patch.

[Jan Kyster]

Great! 1 out of 10 is actually a brilliant score for me! :rock:

The Agents Reports is a mod by Danurve http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170062

Zel's work on Destructible Factories http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177771

Haven't heard from him for a while, but sending hope he's okay.


Regarding the Narwhal then Neal released it to be a regular download http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1512232&postcount=859


And Subron 50... I'm fully aware it's a lot to ask for! :oops:
Was put in the list, since this is the "only" thing missing in TMO for it to be a complete Fleetboat mod.

But hope you one day in the future will be bored and then...! taa-daah! :D

[Ducimus]

Thus far....

- I've fixed submerged water coloration in the enviorment. Now it's more in sync with the surface lighting conditions then what i was before.

- Added "Own ship" to the TDC panel in the periscope view. I saw a post awhile back mentioning this missing label and wondered why i hadn't noticed it myself.

- Historical green linoleum floors are back. Along with checked steel plating in the conning tower. I swapped out one of the newer interior texture file for an older one, to my surprise it worked without issue.

- Added a "Jury Rigged Ice Creamer" to the after battery compartment to most (but not all) boats because it was easy.

- Cleaned up watch officer vocals. (Graph file - again). I mean I REALLY cleaned up the file this time. He should vocalize all orders most of the time now without any "yes sir yes sir".

Still have to add a few lines to him though (IE weather report), assuming they work. (probably wont). Trying to get him to point in the right direction when a ship is spotted. He and the watch crew is supposed to point at the target , but don't. Either the logic in the file is off, or the subcommand the graph file uses internally isn't working in SH4.

- Increased AI gunnery range by 67%. :arrgh!:

- I tried (and failed) to get the OOD (aka navigator files) to vocalize depth under keel. I ended up getting drunk and going to bed instead.


I think I might try........
- to get the radarman to vocalize some response for radar signals detected. (I predict failure)

- Puts around with the OOD at battle station graph file (where he stands next to the scope). He needs more life to him.

-Tweak sub damage zone dimensions. (for instance theres a reason why when your flooding, you always sink stern first. )


Why am i doing this again? I already forgot. The hangover doesn't help.

[virtualpender]

I don't want to get weird, but I could hug you, man.

Can't wait for updated patch. :D

[TorpX]

Longer gun range! It is very cool to be shelled from +10km range to enemy :88)

Good Gawd! What is this obsession with long range gun fire?

This makes no sense from either a historical or a ballistics perspective. Hitting a small target from such a range, with any gun, is very very hard (meaning unlikely). This would be like having Mavis bombers bomb from 20,000 ft.

[Ducimus]

Keep in mind, just because they can shoot at X range, doesn't neccessarily mean they'll hit at X range.

[keltos01]

longer gun range is cool :yeah:

I tried it myself for the Surcouf and it was lots of fun !

regards

keltos

[Mescator]

Good Gawd! What is this obsession with long range gun fire?

This makes no sense from either a historical or a ballistics perspective. Hitting a small target from such a range, with any gun, is very very hard (meaning unlikely). This would be like having Mavis bombers bomb from 20,000 ft.


I forget the submarine or the thread, but there was a Submarine hit by a shell and had another miss close behind that was fired so far away they couldn't tell if it was a DD or a cruiser firing them.

From a ballistics perspective it makes sense though, given these guns had rather large ranges. Keltos had a historical stat sheet for some jap destroyers which had their max range at 17000 yards (From memory, anyway) If they could hit at this range remains to be seen, of course, but DD's hold fire until well under 10000 = /

[I'm goin' down]

Heh, has worked for a lot people apparently. It's a little disconcerting when the mod your working on reach's an audience as far as Korea. ( Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fesheep.net%2F244)) .


TMO is so realistic that you got the The Dearest Leader of North Korea hooked. He commanded his Navy to immerse themselves in it, especially radar evasion tactics. Then the DPRK Navy used TMO tactics to attack and sank the South Koren Navy ship a few months ago. Of course they deny it....

[Jan Kyster]

I forget the submarine or the thread, but there was a Submarine hit by a shell and had another miss close behind that was fired so far away they couldn't tell if it was a DD or a cruiser firing them. I have incidents like that from two sources. One is in "50 North. An Atlantic Battleground" by Alan easton. They were perhaps 2-5 meters from getting a direct hit on a U-Boat at 15000 meters range...

And it might very well have been U-333, Peter Cremer, that was the target. He told the story of when they were stalking a convoy, when suddenly a large splash next to the boat got them all wet. With absolutely nothing in sight... Alaaarm! :rotfl2:

I may not ask for or even know if it's possible with that kind of gun range, but the in-game range of some 4 to 6 km before engaging is kinda... lame...


Good to see it's part of TMO now! :up:

Or maybe not...? :hmmm:

I ended up getting drunk and going to bed instead.What an absolutely brilliant move! :rock:

[TorpX]

I forget the submarine or the thread, but there was a Submarine hit by a shell and had another miss close behind that was fired so far away they couldn't tell if it was a DD or a cruiser firing them.

From a ballistics perspective it makes sense though, given these guns had rather large ranges. Keltos had a historical stat sheet for some jap destroyers which had their max range at 17000 yards (From memory, anyway) If they could hit at this range remains to be seen, of course, but DD's hold fire until well under 10000 = /
I saw the post you refer to. A 8 in. shell penetrated the hull of a U.S. sub. An Japanese cruiser fired to "scare off" the sub and got lucky. A singular event proves very little. I have a photograph of a Civil War rifle-musket that was disabled by a bullet entering the barrel from the opposing side. That doesn't mean it was typical. It was refered to as a "one in a billion" shot. Japanese tin cans shooting at a sub at 10,000 yd, would be like an infantry soldier with an ordinary rifle shooting at a small target at 1000 yd. He may get lucky, but the odds are he will run out of ammunition before he hits it.

Large guns on cruisers did have long extreme ranges. But if you have ever read about the elaborate fire control centers, that had to be operated to permit long range engagements, you might have some context for the figures. These ships/weapon systems were designed for hitting cruisers and battleships in massive fleet actions, where they would have time to make very careful and complicated adjustments to their fire. Trying to hit a small submersible from a pitching DD, on the fly, is another matter.

Quoting figures of gun X has range 15,000, so should shoot at sub at 10,000 or whatever, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ballistics. First, there are dispersion factors related to the shell balance and barrel vibration, which cause the shot to deviate along every foot of its travel. No amount of work or skill can reduce this. Then there are atmospheric variables, such as air density, temperature, humidity and wind velocity. For long range fire, the trajectory will be high, so atmopheric variables must take into account higher altitudes as well. The targets course and speed, must be tracked and plotted, of course. This is not a complete list of relevent factors by any means, but should give you an idea of the difficulty of hitting a target at long range. Perhaps, the biggest problem would be the simple fact that, a typical submarine is much smaller than a heavy cruiser or battleship.

I know the gunnery model in the game is a very simple one. If Ducimus wanted to, he could have destroyers pick off your sub at 20,000 yd., I guess, but I don't see the point. There is no historical foundation for this, and I think it would be messing up TMO for no good reason.

[TorpX]

I have incidents like that from two sources. One is in "50 North. An Atlantic Battleground" by Alan easton. They were perhaps 2-5 meters from getting a direct hit on a U-Boat at 15000 meters range...

And it might very well have been U-333, Peter Cremer, that was the target. He told the story of when they were stalking a convoy, when suddenly a large splash next to the boat got them all wet. With absolutely nothing in sight... Alaaarm! :rotfl2:

I may not ask for or even know if it's possible with that kind of gun range, but the in-game range of some 4 to 6 km before engaging is kinda... lame...


There most likely are a few instances where subs were attacked at long range by gunfire. After all it was a big war. Given the simplistic modeling in the game, if DD's are given long range fire capabilities, they will most likely be distorted and unrealistic. There is a lot of higher math involved, and the game engine will probably just extrapolate from the simplified model and result in a overly high hit probability. Military professionals developed doctrine based on what they knew "worked". IMO, it doesn't make sense to have DD's firing at subs at over 6,000 yd., when the chance of getting a hit is remote.

[Mescator]

I saw the post you refer to. A 8 in. shell penetrated the hull of a U.S. sub. An Japanese cruiser fired to "scare off" the sub and got lucky. A singular event proves very little. I have a photograph of a Civil War rifle-musket that was disabled by a bullet entering the barrel from the opposing side. That doesn't mean it was typical. It was refered to as a "one in a billion" shot. Japanese tin cans shooting at a sub at 10,000 yd, would be like an infantry soldier with an ordinary rifle shooting at a small target at 1000 yd. He may get lucky, but the odds are he will run out of ammunition before he hits it.

That's the one i referred to indeed. Regardless of what the odds are though, it proves 2 things. A) They had that capacity and B) They were willing to fire at range. I already acknowledged that hits at that range are unlikely in my original post.

I also said for guns with a range of 17,000 Yards holding fire until Well Under 10,000 Yards seemed unusual. I was not talking about 9990 Yards, nor was i talking about firing AT 10,000 Yards. Having reread my OP, i can see where you might get that impression. DD wasn't firing at me until under 6,600 last night in near perfect weather conditions. Regardless of if the increase is added, it's not the first time I've heard of subs being fired on at longer ranges than that to force them off.

Also. You refute my post by stating it's historically inaccurate and that skippers wouldn't fire at that range, then turn around and say

There most likely are a few instances where subs were attacked at long range by gunfire

:hmmm:

As far as the game engine is concerned, that's Duci's business in this scenario. If he can implement it in a manner he feels satisfied with, then great. If the engine proves difficult as your suggesting, then it doesn't need to be implemented.

[Liberatus]

When should it appear a patch for TMO 2.0?

[Ducimus]

Soon. As in, the next two or three days. When I post it, it will be in the TMO thread.

I spent all day yesterday tweaking the damage system on player subs and now I want nothing more then to drop kick the whole patch into the phuckit bucket.

[Liberatus]

The great respect for you for your work :up:.
Regards:salute:

[Jan Kyster]

Soon. As in, the next two or three days. When I post it, it will be in the TMO thread.Link in first post...? http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/bowdown.gif

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/biggrin3.gif

[Ducimus]

Link in first post...?

Yes, it will be linked in first post.