Arizona Congresswoman Shot in the Head at Public Event

[Gerald]

Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head at close range by a gunman Saturday morning outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Fox News has confirmed.Eight others were shot, including three of the Arizona Democrat's aides, at Giffords' "Your Corner" event held at a Safeway grocery story. A suspect is in custody.

Giffords was taken to a hospital but the condition of those shot was not immediately known, a senior congressional aide told Fox News.

The three staffers who were shot worked out of Giffords' Arizona office.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-congresswoman-reportedly-shot-public-event/

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4489953/congressman-king-on-shooting-of-rep-giffords-aides


Note: Published January 08, 2011

[Takeda Shingen]

Just saw this. Monsterous. A simply monsterous act.

[Armistead]

Just read it, be interesting to see why this fellow did this. Total of 12 shot, but who knows how it will pan out. Lot's of heated stuff going on there.

MSNBC reporting she is in surgery, most news on the web has her dead...others in critial condition or killed.

[The Third Man]

Just read it, be interesting to see why this fellow did this. Total of 12 shot, but who knows how it will pan out. Lot's of heated stuff going on there.

That many shots often indicates much anger/rage at the subject of the shooting. That others in the congress woman's office were also shot, indicates a disgruntled former employee. Certainly the LEOs are looking into that.

[CptSimFreak]

Someone not very happy with immigration laws?

[Gerald]

Someone not very happy with immigration laws? This is a serious situation, which one should not joke about, and it is a clear abuse of a rule, and unfortunately that happens like that in some countries, there are many reasons why these things happen, but only after a preliminary investigation, may be possibly some answers arrive..

[Armistead]

All specualation now, but the fact someone attacked a congresswoman it probably has some political issue. I think with so many americans going through tough times, we'll see more of it. Some will celebrate the shooter.

Her brother and law is in space now.

She appears to be strong on border issues, let's hope that's not part of it.
They're have been past reports that the Cartels were gonna start hitting back. Right now our border is becoming a warzone in itself.

[gimpy117]

I don't to point fingers...but it warrants a mention that she had just edged out a tea party candidate in a close election. With all those stirrings of armed revolution in that party...it makes me wonder. :hmmm:

[The Third Man]

I don't to point fingers...but it warrants a mention that she had just edged out a tea party candidate in a close election. With all those stirrings of armed revolution in that party...it makes me wonder. :hmmm:

Not to point fingers but that is what you just did. :nope: :nope:

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

[Armistead]

Well, it will be spinned for political gain however it resolves. If a mexican, close the borders. Already news are talking about guns again...acting as if a semi auto is fully auto.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't to point fingers...but it warrants a mention that she had just edged out a tea party candidate in a close election. With all those stirrings of armed revolution in that party...it makes me wonder. :hmmm:

The Third Man is correct. You pointed fingers while stating the opposite. Gimpy, that is not objective, nor appropriate. The so-called Tea Party are not the terrorists claimed by the left. This is a terrible tragedy, but attempting to manipulate this to political advantage is just as distasteful.

[Stealth Hunter]

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

As Wikipedia would say, CITATION NEEDED.

CNN just reported that the shooter is a 21-year-old male. That's all anybody knows so far. A little young to be a disgruntled employee as you put it.

Reports are pouring in like mad over her condition as well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=giffords+21+year+old&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=834&prmd=ivnsu&tbs=mbl:1&tbo=u&ei=E8MoTeGwC9H_ngeslNHKAQ&sa=X&oi=realtime_result_group_more_results_link&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ5QUwAA

[TheDarkWraith]

Already news are talking about guns again...acting as if a semi auto is fully auto.

better go buy that AR-15 before they say it's illegal to own because it's a semi-automatic weapon. It's bad enough that some states won't allow you to own fully automatic weapons - who are they to tell me what I can and can't own? :06:

[Takeda Shingen]

As Wikipedia would say, CITATION NEEDED.

CNN just reported that the shooter is a 21-year-old male. That's all anybody knows so far. A little young to be a disgruntled employee as you put it.

Reports are pouring in like mad over her condition as well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=giffords+21+year+old&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=834&prmd=ivnsu&tbs=mbl:1&tbo=u&ei=E8MoTeGwC9H_ngeslNHKAQ&sa=X&oi=realtime_result_group_more_results_link&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ5QUwAA

I should have clarified that. You are also right regarding the comment designed to associate the left with assasination.

[Gerald]

Not to point fingers but that is what you just did. :nope: :nope:

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning. He pointed no fingers, but pure speculation about what may be a cause of the incident in question, it's not completely unfamiliar with the problems going on at the border

[The Third Man]

As Wikipedia would say, CITATION NEEDED.

CNN just reported that the shooter is a 21-year-old male. That's all anybody knows so far. A little young to be a disgruntled employee as you put it.

Reports are pouring in like mad over her condition as well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=giffords+21+year+old&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=834&prmd=ivnsu&tbs=mbl:1&tbo=u&ei=E8MoTeGwC9H_ngeslNHKAQ&sa=X&oi=realtime_result_group_more_results_link&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ5QUwAA

21 yo is not too young to be an ex-employee or a gunman. It is perhaps too young to be a conservative. How do you like that?

[gimpy117]

Not to point fingers but that is what you just did. :nope: :nope:

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

yeah i changed that when you were quoting me.

But still...they're reaping what they sew. you can't just talk about armed revolution and not draw speculation from people like me...and by the sound of it, the wall street journal, who also thought it was worth mentioning the election she won.

[Tribesman]

who are they to tell me what I can and can't own?
Wow:doh:

[The Third Man]

yeah i changed that when you were quoting me.

But still...they're reaping what they sew. you can't just talk about armed revolution and not draw speculation from people like me...and by the sound of it, the wall street journal, who also thought it was worth mentioning the election she won.

Please show me a source where any legit Tea Party movement organ espoused armed insurection. Someone needs to get away from the left wing tripe and see reality.

[Stealth Hunter]

21 yo is not too young to be an ex-employee or a gunman. It is perhaps too young to be a conservative. How do you like that?

I got a good chuckle out of it, because I never even insinuated that he was a Conservative to begin with. Your rash attitude and uncanny ability to jump to conclusions on this subject made me laugh a little as well.

[The Third Man]

I got a good chuckle out of it, because I never even insinuated that he was a Conservative to begin with. Your rash attitude and uncanny ability to jump to conclusions on this subject made me laugh a little as well.

Good to hear I injected a little humor into your day....I chuckle with you, if you don't mind. :D

[gimpy117]

Please show me a source where any legit Tea Party movement organ espoused armed insurection. Someone needs to get away from the left wing tripe and see reality.

well not officially. i was referring to people associated with the movement.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-joins-calls-for-armed-revolution-in-america.html

took me 2 seconds on google dude. :doh:

[The Third Man]

well not officially. i was referring to people associated with the movement.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-joins-calls-for-armed-revolution-in-america.html

took me 2 seconds on google dude. :doh:


well not officially

[Stealth Hunter]

Good to hear I injected a little humor into your day....I chuckle with you, if you don't mind. :D

Um... okay. I guess it's always good when someone else feels comfortable enough with themselves to have a nice laugh at something they've done or said.:03:

Mind showing me that source now for that bit you had on the political views of famous historical assassins?

[gimpy117]

well not officially
How is a candidate running with the party's blessing for a congress seat talking about "taking out Harry reid" not official?

[ETR3(SS)]

Well, this thread went to hell in a handbasket in record time.:roll:

[The Third Man]

Um... okay. I guess it's always good when someone else feels comfortable enough with themselves to have a nice laugh at something they've done or said.:03:

Mind showing me that source now for that bit you had on the political views of famous historical assassins?

Historical? Did I use that word/term? Sounds like you have already searched and found my statement acurate. Carry on.

[Stealth Hunter]

well not officially. i was referring to people associated with the movement.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-joins-calls-for-armed-revolution-in-america.html

took me 2 seconds on google dude. :doh:

Angle's not just "associated"; she's a part of the Tea Party, Gimpy. Endorsed, as well, by the Express movement during the senate elections in Nevada, before she lost to Reid.

A little more on her endorsement:

http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/23159859/detail.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/09/sharron-angle-faces-tough_n_629327.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCgsZl-VBrigypOrKJ1SKhPntxeQD9FV1O5G4

[The Third Man]

How is a candidate running with the party's blessing for a congress seat talking about "taking out Harry reid" not official?

Realy? You cannot differentiate between political speech and murder?

[Stealth Hunter]

Historical? Did I use that word/term? Sounds like you have already searched and found my statement acurate. Carry on.

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

You claimed that, historically, most assassins are left-leaning. Now, where's your citation? Or are you just here to blabber on like a troll?

[Growler]

Well, this thread went to hell in a handbasket in record time.:roll:

The nice thing about handbaskets is that they burn almost completely, leaving a nice, powdery ash that's perfect for composting. The problem, of course, is getting your ash out of that hellhole.

[gimpy117]

Realy? You cannot differentiate between political speech and murder?

advocating killing somebody is now political speech?

"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
"I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying, My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." -Sharron Angle

The point was, that the tea party had been offhandedly advocating violence, and now somebody who opposes them gets shot. So i don't think my speculation is so off base when candidates of the tea party have been saying things like that.

[GoldenRivet]

"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
"I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying, My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." -Sharron Angle :yep:

EDIT:

"take them out" or "take him out" could mean any number of things.

usually - in the context used - it means "defeat"

[gimpy117]

:yep:

I hope you're not agreeing with that. Because that congresswoman with a bullet in her head is a lot like what it would actually be like. Think for one second what you are advocating, Murder, simply because you don't see eye to eye with somebody. In my mind, having to take up a gun because you can't talk it over with somebody is the ultimate disgrace.

[GoldenRivet]

i agree completely with the Sharron Angle quote.

see my post edit.

i seriously doubt she meant "kill" him :doh:

our nation has been involved in a civil war for some time - some know it... some dont... some refuse to accept it.

but thats how it is.

"America" ceases to be - we are now a multicultural land mass that has been pulled in so many directions its not even funny

[gimpy117]

well thats great rivet. whoopty dee. looks like somebody's ahead of you...because the rumor is she's dead. :nope:

and you don't find anything funny about juxtaposing the phrase: "take him out" after you just advocated armed revolution?

[Stealth Hunter]

well thats great rivet. whoopty dee. looks like somebody's ahead of you...because the rumor is she's dead. :nope:

CNN Live announced there will be a briefing before long on her condition. Which, given what the feeds are reporting on Google, it is looking like she is going to die. But maybe not. She might get lucky. I certainly hope so.

Apparently, a federal judge was one of the casualties (fatally wounded).

[The Third Man]

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

You claimed that, historically, most assassins are left-leaning. Now, where's your citation? Or are you just here to blabber on like a troll?

Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_a ttempts_and_plots

[CCIP]

Geez, you guys jump all over CptSimFreak making a minor reference to a popularly-known issue in Arizona politics, without any alignment, and then devolve into politicking and aligning a completely unidentified assassin with parties and sociopolitical leanings. For shame, especially in this tragedy :nope: Really, stop this and think about the human side of this for a second.

My hunch is that the motivation for this is, as with many of these shootings by young people, a delusion of grandeur and thirst for instant celebrity. Herostratus' fame, etc.

[GoldenRivet]

well thats great rivet. whoopty dee. looks like somebody's ahead of you...because the rumor is she's dead. :nope:

this shooting is a terrible tragedy against our nation. thats a fact.

You twist my words gimpy - nobody in this thread is condoning violence.

but just because some lone gunman shoots someone doesnt mean there is a vast political conspiracy behind it.

you jumped that gun so to speak.

such an act cannot be tolerated, but it should also not be surprising when things are so polarized - politically speaking.

just send prayers to her family.:nope:

[gimpy117]

this shooting is a terrible tragedy against our nation. thats a fact.

You twist my words gimpy - nobody in this thread is condoning violence.

but just because some lone gunman shoots someone doesnt mean there is a vast political conspiracy behind it.

you jumped that gun so to speak.

such an act cannot be tolerated, but it should also not be surprising when things are so polarized - politically speaking.

just send prayers to her family.:nope:

well I'm glad you don't "condone violence" but saying you agree with her statement is the next closest thing. In my mind, if you agree with somebody's statement who advocates armed revolution to get their way, then you condone violence.

oh here something too...she was in palin's crosshairs...how ironic.

http://gawker.com/5728545/shot-congresswoman-was-in-sarah-palins-crosshairs

[GoldenRivet]

Maybe we should arrest Sarah Palin:06:

[The Third Man]

advocating killing somebody is now political speech?



The point was, that the tea party had been offhandedly advocating violence, and now somebody who opposes them gets shot. So i don't think my speculation is so off base when candidates of the tea party have been saying things like that.

Except the congress woman wasn't opposing the tea party. If you check her home page/if you can, you will find she was very much aligned with the tea party.

http://giffords.house.gov/

[mookiemookie]

Disgusting.

[Gerald]

Geez, you guys jump all over CptSimFreak making a minor reference to a popularly-known issue in Arizona politics, without any alignment, and then devolve into politicking and aligning a completely unidentified assassin with parties and sociopolitical leanings. For shame, especially in this tragedy :nope: Really, stop this and think about the human side of this for a second.

My hunch is that the motivation for this is, as with many of these shootings by young people, a delusion of grandeur and thirst for instant celebrity. Herostratus' fame, etc. I was on the line before, but without results, suggesting the lack of empathy, of some actors, :nope:

[gimpy117]

Except the congress woman wasn't opposing the tea party. If you check her home page/if you can, you will find she was very much aligned with the tea party.

http://giffords.house.gov/

then way was her office vandalized when she voted for the health care bill?
Giffords had been targeted by U.S. conservatives over her support for passage last year of Obama's health-care reform legislation. Her Arizona office was vandalized, its front door smashed, after passage of the health care bill last March. -Calgary herald


oh and welcome to the party mookie.

[Takeda Shingen]

Geez, you guys jump all over CptSimFreak making a minor reference to a popularly-known issue in Arizona politics, without any alignment, and then devolve into politicking and aligning a completely unidentified assassin with parties and sociopolitical leanings. For shame, especially in this tragedy :nope: Really, stop this and think about the human side of this for a second.

My hunch is that the motivation for this is, as with many of these shootings by young people, a delusion of grandeur and thirst for instant celebrity. Herostratus' fame, etc.

QFT

[Stealth Hunter]

Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_a ttempts_and_plots

John Wilkes Booth: Protestant Republican (nativist)
Charles J. Guiteau: Republican (who, in fact, worked on James Garfield's campaign and was at the Republican National Committee in 1880, and shot Garfield out of his own misled belief that he had caused him solely to win the election)
Leon Czolgosz: Anarchist
Lee Harvey Oswald: Cuban Democratic Revolutionary Front member (anti-Castro league; Oswald was also affiliated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which, although it originally supported Castro, turned against him following his open remarks about Marxism and his nationalizing of the country's assets; evidently wasn't that much of a leftist since he also, you know, assassinated President Kennedy...)

Shall I cover attempted assassinations for you as well?

[The Third Man]

then way was her office vandalized and shot up when she voted for the health care bill?

oh and welcome to the party mookie.

I have no idea. Is it a left issue or a country issue? Perhaps the left didn't think she was left enough.

Again this sounds like a very angry former employee.

[Gerald]

QFT I agree!

[Stealth Hunter]

Except the congress woman wasn't opposing the tea party. If you check her home page/if you can, you will find she was very much aligned with the tea party.

http://giffords.house.gov/

Yet she was not endorsed by them and is not a member. In fact, she ran against Tea Party candidate Jesse Kelly during 2010's representative election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections_i n_Arizona,_2008#District_8

[Stealth Hunter]

She's still alive, but in critical condition- and still in surgery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010802422.html?hpid=topnews

[Tribesman]

I have no idea.
QFT:har:

[TheDarkWraith]

She's still alive, but in critical condition- and still in surgery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010802422.html?hpid=topnews

Do they know what kind of gun was used? A .22 would be bad because it lacks enough energy to exit the skull and thus bounces around inside scrambling everything. Thus is why most assassins choose this caliber at short range when targeting the head.

[The Third Man]

She's still alive, but in critical condition- and still in surgery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010802422.html?hpid=topnews


I pray for her.

[TFatseas]

Jesus....

A Congress Women, Fed. Judge, aides and some others get shot and all you guys can do is argue is what side of the political spectrum the shooter MUST be on?

Meh, I had more typed out but it's not worth it...

[Gerald]

Do they know what kind of gun was used? A .22 would be bad because it lacks enough energy to exit the skull and thus bounces around inside scrambling everything. Thus is why most assassins choose this caliber at short range when targeting the head. I do not think I've seen that information, but apparently an automatic weapon,which in turn can include many different kinds of weapons

[TFatseas]

Do they know what kind of gun was used? A .22 would be bad because it lacks enough energy to exit the skull and thus bounces around inside scrambling everything. Thus is why most assassins choose this caliber at short range when targeting the head.

Sheriff said "pistol with an extended magazine, and I'm not saying anything further."

[GoldenRivet]

Jesus....

A Congress Women, Fed. Judge, aides and some others get shot and all you guys can do is argue is what side of the political spectrum the shooter MUST be on?

Meh, I had more typed out but it's not worth it...

hear hear :up:

[Growler]

Jesus....

A Congress Women, Fed. Judge, aides and some others get shot and all you guys can do is argue is what side of the political spectrum the shooter MUST be on?

Meh, I had more typed out but it's not worth it...

Ah, speculation. It's old hat by now.

"Absent new info, make shtuff up to fill airtime" has been the model in the media for so long now that it's only natural that it would extend into other arenas.

[Stealth Hunter]

Do they know what kind of gun was used? A .22 would be bad because it lacks enough energy to exit the skull and thus bounces around inside scrambling everything. Thus is why most assassins choose this caliber at short range when targeting the head.

Not that I'm aware. No feeds have any info on that, just that she was shot, a federal judge was shot, and some other associates of hers were injured in the gunfire. Four are dead.

The press conference is on CNN right now. She just got out of surgery. Doctors are "optimistic" about her recovery.

[gimpy117]

Jesus....

A Congress Women, Fed. Judge, aides and some others get shot and all you guys can do is argue is what side of the political spectrum the shooter MUST be on?

Meh, I had more typed out but it's not worth it...

sorry, I speculated and then a ****storm started. only time wil tell...but i have my suspicions.

[The Third Man]

I do not think I've seen that information, but apparently an automatic weapon,which in turn can include many different kinds of weapons

Or a semi-automatic weapon. There is a difference.

[Armistead]

We have nuts in every party or group that has a few radicals. Either way it will be sad that any group this person it tied to politics will try to play it.

So far I've heard about this shooter.

A drug runner working for the Cartel.
A radical tea party member.
Someone peod at healthcare bill..

MSNBC, being who they are can't stop talking about guns, semi autos aren't auto, they talk about them like they're illegal machine guns.

and so on, it covers all spectrums...showing any group will try to score points and lump in the whole group. Anyone that joins in just shows their stupidity.

[TFatseas]

Shooter name is Jared Laughner and apparently this is his Youtube channel.


http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

[The Third Man]

We have nuts in every party or group that has a few radicals. Either way it will be sad that any group this person it tied to politics will try to play it.

So far I've heard about this shooter.

A drug runner working for the Cartel.
A radical tea party member.
Someone peod at healthcare bill..

MSNBC, being who they are can't stop talking about guns, semi autos aren't auto, they talk about them like they're illegal machine guns.

and so on, it covers all spectrums...showing any group will try to score points and lump in the whole group. Anyone that joins in just shows their stupidity.

Is this the front for a left wing shooter? "We have nuts in every party or group "

[Gerald]

Or a semi-automatic weapon. There is a difference. I know more than well, thanks anyway!

[goldorak]

Not to point fingers but that is what you just did. :nope: :nope:

Your speculation would defy history where most assasins are left leaning.

Not in this case. Its quite appalling that this senator was on Sarah Palin's target map.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/sarahpac_0.jpg


Something is fundamentally broken in the political process if those same politicians start asking for "assassinations" even if only in a metaphorical sense. Sarah Palin is not the only one doing this, others also and look no further than the Wikileaks affair.

[Takeda Shingen]

Shooter name is Jared Laughner and apparently this is his Youtube channel.


http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Hmm. New currency? Strange metaphor.

[Stealth Hunter]

It probably wasn't a .22. Dr. Gupta is on the phone with CNN, and she was in fact shot from close range. The bullet was "in and out". Saved her life no doubt.

[Stealth Hunter]

Picture:

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=328&ptp_photo_id=azstar:8842226&size=420x300_mb&re=1&m=1268702860.0

[TFatseas]

Picture of Shooter(Middle)

http://azstarnet.com/events/collection_aebeb63c-2f9e-11df-9021-001cc4c002e0.html?photo=8

[Growler]

Hmm. New currency? Strange metaphor.

Funny how he advocated literacy, while having difficulties with it himself. Don't be surprised if, judging by the nature of the videos he posted there, that his defense hinges on his mental faculties.

[Takeda Shingen]

Funny how he advocated literacy, while having difficulties with it himself. Don't be surprised if, judging by the nature of the videos he posted there, that his defense hinges on his mental faculties.

Yeah. Seems likely given the rambling nature of the videos. What is even more strange is that they are all text, meaning that he had to think about it to a degree that you wouldn't have to if you were just recording your thoughts through audio.

[The Third Man]

Left wing nut job. hello.

[Takeda Shingen]

Not so sure. References to God and the federal government make it rather ambiguous at this time.

[Stealth Hunter]

Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

Interesting reads on his YouTube channel.

[Takeda Shingen]

According to his YouTube Channel, Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are two things he's read.

That's kind of all over the map.

[TFatseas]

Screencaps from his Myspace.(Found on another web site)

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg618/scaled.php?tn=0&server=618&filename=42o.png&xsize=640&ysize=640

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg614/scaled.php?tn=0&server=614&filename=vlz.png&xsize=640&ysize=640

[The Third Man]

According to his YouTube Channel, Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are two things he's read.

The left has always been more violent than the right. Starting in Chicago 1968. Have you ever seen a demonstration, violent or not by right wing organizations?

[Stealth Hunter]

That's kind of all over the map.

That's what I thought, too. His videos seem to indicate that he's come up with his own little ideology. And that "new currency" stuff I thought was interesting as well.

[Stealth Hunter]

The left has always been more violent than the right.

Which fails to account for Mein Kampf, since Nazism is classified as a far-right ideology which stems from Fascism- let alone one which led to an entire world war.

[Takeda Shingen]

Which fails to account for Mein Kampf, since Nazism is classified as a far-right ideology which stems from Fascism- let alone one which led to an entire world war.

You beat me to it.

[gimpy117]

The left has always been more violent than the right.

shift out of maximum overtroll please.

also...he speaks of political terrorism:

If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism , especially as a political weapon

he also speaks ill of the current "treasonous laws"

source: http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

[Growler]

The left has always been more violent than the right. Starting in Chicago 1968. Have you ever seen a demonstration, violent or not by right wing organizations?

Man, you just can't let things go, can you?

[Stealth Hunter]

He has a SECOND YouTube channel. Only one vid:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Starhitshnaz

If there's no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There's no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; "What's your illegal activity on duty?".
If you protest the government then there's a new government from protesting.
There's not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren't protesting the government.
There's something important in this video: There's no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn't be afraid of the stars.
There's a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there's no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It's with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there's only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.Wow. He really has some serious problems.

[Gerald]

With this material in hand it is possible, to do a psychology profile

[The Third Man]

You beat me to it.

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?

[ETR3(SS)]

Just because his crap on youtube doesn't make any sense, doesn't mean his a nut job. It could very well be intentional.

[Takeda Shingen]

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism

[TFatseas]

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?

No, and I say that as someone who views himself right of center.

[The Third Man]

Man, you just can't let things go, can you?

Not when it comes to basic American ideals. No.

[Takeda Shingen]

Not when it comes to basic American ideals. No.

There are sometimes when you have to be a human being first and a politico second. This is one of those times.

[Stealth Hunter]

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?

So they killed Communists, Marxists, Socialists, Liberals, Unionists, among others, and were opposed to parliamentary systems of government and democracy... but were left-wingers all the while?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

National Socialism is a far-right ideology. Fascism is as well. The difference between the two is that Nazism is more focused on racial purity and creating a national identity through such purity.

[razark]

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?
Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy or republic?

Is Greenland green? Is Iceland icy? Is there marketing value in how you name something?

[ETR3(SS)]

There are sometimes whenyou have to be a human being first and a politico second. This is one of those times.
But that would be Conduct unbecoming of a troll and a douchebag.:o

[The Third Man]

There are sometimes when you have to be a human being first and a politico second. This is one of those times.


How do you feel about the 114 people who died today on our roads? Are you a human first now? Or resigned to death?

Come on folks as much as you dislike me everyone dies.

[gimpy117]

well if that account is legitimate...hes one sick kid.

[Oberon]

A child has died for gods sake, lets have a little bit of decorum here, please?

[Takeda Shingen]

How do you feel about the 114 people who died today on our roads? Are you a human first now? Or resigned to death?

How do you feel about staying on topic? We are talking about the assasination of a serving elected official. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but begin to agree with my friend ETR.

EDIT: And we would also do well to adhere to Oberon's thoughts.

[Tribesman]

Really National Socialism isnt left wing?
Elementary politics lesson 101.:doh:
read uncle adolfs book.
Then again that probably wouldn't change anything as your "evidence" posted earlier to back up your crazy claims shot your own claims to pieces which suggests you have real big difficulties.


CCIP had this nailed on page 3
"My hunch is that the motivation for this is, as with many of these shootings by young people, a delusion of grandeur and thirst for instant celebrity. Herostratus' fame, etc.".....
just add in a few rants about a return to the gold standard, the constitution, evil feds and global conspiracies and hey presto instant loser with a headline


well if that account is legitimate...hes one sick kid.
There were some questions about him being the 3rd incarnation of a banned user, but I think TTMs account is legitimate.

[Stealth Hunter]

Updates on her condition:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[The Third Man]

How do you feel about staying on topic? We are talking about the assasination of a serving elected official. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but begin to agree with my friend ETR.

EDIT: And we would also do well to adhere to Oberon's thoughts.

I guess you correct. So sorry.

[The Third Man]

Elementary politics lesson 101.:doh:
read uncle adolfs book.
Then again that probably wouldn't change anything as your "evidence" posted earlier to back up your crazy claims shot your own claims to pieces which suggests you have real big difficulties.


CCIP had this nailed on page 3
"My hunch is that the motivation for this is, as with many of these shootings by young people, a delusion of grandeur and thirst for instant celebrity. Herostratus' fame, etc.".....
just add in a few rants about a return to the gold standard, the constitution, evil feds and global conspiracies and hey presto instant loser with a headline

That is the problem. Socialism was taught wrong.

[Stealth Hunter]

Here's a video of her from March of last year discussing violence and harassment:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36033690#36033690

Interesting and sad. She has a very soft voice.

[Buddahaid]

ETR broke the rules and resorted to name calling Takeda.

Reading Mein Kampf does not make one evil. It is not what many people think it is. Any history buff should read it if they can get through it.

Sad happening that it is, this shooting is nothing new to the world and is human business as usual.

Those who would kill in this manner will find their weapons no matter what feel good laws are enacted.

[TFatseas]

Just noticed something on his Youtube channel...

"I had favorite books:Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables..."

Dude ain't no Republican, ain't no Democrat, just some bat**** insane psychopath.

[Takeda Shingen]

ETR broke the rules and resorted to name calling Takeda.

And I should have clarified that I was refering to the trolling comment, not the name calling.

[Buddahaid]

Just noticed something on his Youtube channel...

"I had favorite books:Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables..."

Dude ain't no Republican, ain't no Democrat, just some bat**** insane psychopath.

What does that mean? I've read those books. Are you suggesting a book burning?

[The Third Man]

How do you feel about staying on topic? We are talking about the assasination of a serving elected official. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but begin to agree with my friend ETR.

EDIT: And we would also do well to adhere to Oberon's thoughts.

And you would do well to adhere to your money....contributed to Subsim. Imune to policy or speech.

[TFatseas]

Bad language on image...

Huge image, picture is of his Myspace updates.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5082/5337086764_4de868c256_o.jpg

Dude's nuttier than squirrel crap.

[Takeda Shingen]

And you would do well to adhere to your money....contributed to Subsim. Imune to policy or speech.

We can be talking about anything from politics to baseball and it always comes down to the same thing; me. :nope:

[TFatseas]

What does that mean? I've read those books. Are you suggesting a book burning?

Huh?

Try again and look at the bolded text.

He wasn't planning on getting arrested...

[Oberon]

We can be talking about anything from politics to baseball and it always comes down to the same thing; me. :nope:

Well, you're Moderator of 2010, you're going to be getting a lot of fanboys. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

Huh?

Try again and look at the bolded text.

He wasn't planning on getting arrested...

"I had.."? OK I see my mistake.

[razark]

Huh?

Try again and look at the bolded text.

He wasn't planning on getting arrested...
Also, check the top message in this link:
Bad language on image...

Huge image, picture is of his Myspace updates.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5082/5337086764_4de868c256_o.jpg

Dude's nuttier than squirrel crap.
I don't believe he had any plans for later today, or ever...

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, you're Moderator of 2010, you're going to be getting a lot of fanboys. :yep:

:haha:

Score! Do I at least get a reserved parking spot?

[Stealth Hunter]

Loughner shot Giffords and some of the others there, started to flee when he ran low on ammo, and was tackled by one of Giffords' staff to the ground.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html

[GoldenRivet]

And you would do well to adhere to your money....contributed to Subsim. Imune to policy or speech.

are you implying donors do not get discipline?

because I have given more than a couple of bucks to subsim and I have received a couple of licks before.

i think a few others here have too.

[Gerald]

No shadow rests on SubSim Moderator, and should it be so difficult to stick to the topic without to track out, and have a respectful attitude on the current situation.

[Takeda Shingen]

No shadow rests on SubSim Moderator, and should it be so difficult to stick to the topic without to track out, and have a respectful attitude on the current situation.

You're right; we need to keep this one on topic.

[gimpy117]

yeah we need to get back on track. I don't even know what were arguing about now :06:

[papa_smurf]

Quite shocked that this has happened, was there a reason for the shooting?

[Takeda Shingen]

Quite shocked that this has happened, was there a reason for the shooting?

We're not sure yet. The shooter's ramblings are all over the place. He was clearly disaffected, but it is unclear as to how or why.

[mookiemookie]

Quite shocked that this has happened, was there a reason for the shooting?

It appears it was the doings of some kid who's generally crazy, not specifically crazy.

Here's some of his YouTube videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnNx0WThoF0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uRjwPWaxiY&feature=player_embedded

Didn't stop everyone here from jumping to conclusions, though. And you watch, he'll be paraded by both sides as illustrations of the dangers of the other side. He'll be called a Teabagger by the left, and Fox News will get ahold of his ramblings and call him a communist or socialist. He'll be used as a political tool. Just you wait.

[razark]

Quite shocked that this has happened, was there a reason for the shooting?
According to what I've seen in various places, it was because the shooter was a right-wing teabagger, a left-wing socialist, a nazi, an atheist, a nutcase, a Glen Beck/Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh fan, a patriot, a conservative, a liberal, a conspiracy theorist, and just about everything else...

[gimpy117]

Didn't stop everyone here from jumping to conclusions, though. And you watch, he'll be paraded by both sides as illustrations of the dangers of the other side. He'll be called a Teabagger by the left, and Fox News will get ahold of his ramblings and call him a communist or socialist. He'll be used as a political tool. Just you wait.

oh yeah. im sure news writers are already hard at work. the whole internet has found that you tube, so naturally fox and cnn probably already have it.

[Gerald]

President on Rep. Giffords shooting,

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4490012/obama-tragedy-for-our-entire-country/?playlist_id=86856


Note: Update record, January 08, 2011

[Growler]

Didn't stop everyone here from jumping to conclusions, though. And you watch, he'll be paraded by both sides as illustrations of the dangers of the other side. He'll be called a Teabagger by the left, and Fox News will get ahold of his ramblings and call him a communist or socialist. He'll be used as a political tool. Just you wait.

He was a unicorn, too???? :wah:

Seriously, though - it speaks volumes both about us and our society that this issue will be used to leverage political agendas. I don't think I like what it says.

And I've yet to find a justifiable reason for killing a kid for political purpose.

[Buddahaid]

He was a unicorn, too???? :wah:

Seriously, though - it speaks volumes both about us and our society that this issue will be used to leverage political agendas. I don't think I like what it says.

And I've yet to find a justifiable reason for killing a kid for political purpose.

Justification is always in the eye of the beholder. I find myself seriously wondering if the internet has made people less or more reactive. Nations could go to war in a groundswell of indignation over news in print. Now we get a plethora of opinion almost instantly that usually is village gossip gone wild mixed with factual reporting.

To put that on topic, there is so much information now, people are forced to cherry pick what floats their boat and in his case, pull him down his merry old path to destruction. Does that make sense?

[Molon Labe]

RBO/WorldNetDaily wasted no time finding a classmate who called him a left winger. Apparently Twits found a classmate of his (http://twitter.com/caitieparker) on Twitter and have been peppering her with questions about him... including low-brow questions about his political orientation.

EDIT: And the Daily Kos wasted no time on their end, either.

Agree that it's a sad commentary on our society that this is just leverage now. (Well, not just now, "dancing in the blood of the victims" has been a tactic around since the 90s at the minimum... but still.)

[Takeda Shingen]

To put that on topic, there is so much information now, people are forced to cherry pick what floats their boat and in his case, pull him down his merry old path to destruction. Does that make sense?

Yes it does make sense. When it comes to the drone of 24-hour news and information, it is the often the loudest and least reasonable voices that tend to stand out. For someone who is in effect lost, those are the bits that are selected.

[breadcatcher101]

Why do many call this a tragedy?

This was no tragedy, that would apply to a act of God event of some sort.

This was nothing short of an outrage.

I am glad she is responding and my prayers to all the others as well.

[ETR3(SS)]

It is a tragedy that an innocent child was slain.

[tater]

It is a tragedy that an innocent child was slain.

Yeah, the adults are bad enough, but a 9 year old. The shooter needs a needle in his arm.

[Kongo Otto]

Yeah, the adults are bad enough, but a 9 year old. The shooter needs a needle in his arm.

OK this guys gets the needle and is no longer a problem but you can be shure there will be more such incidents in the future.

[razark]

Yeah, the adults are bad enough, but a 9 year old. The shooter needs a needle in his arm.
Does it still count as a needle if it's more than 5 inches in diameter? And not just in his arm?

Child killers are...
There's no word strong enough for that.

[Platapus]

I don't know how her husband can concentrate on his upcoming mission with his wife in the hospital. What a horrible thing to happen.

[razark]

I don't know how her husband can concentrate on his upcoming mission with his wife in the hospital. What a horrible thing to happen.
His mission is not the upcoming one, but the one after. (It's also the last scheduled flight on the manifest.) It's going to be a while until that flight. Hopefully, by the time it comes up, she will have made a lot of recovery.

[Buddahaid]

Yeah, the adults are bad enough, but a 9 year old. The shooter needs a needle in his arm.

You know, as I get older that has less meaning. A life is and always will be the most valuable thing a person posesses, and defies all bounderies of value, yet we all apply some value to others lives. The value also seems to drop cross culturally and racially. This is who we still are in spite of, or because of, our higher brain function.

I don't think the terrible event will change anything of any meaning for the human juggernaut.

[Freiwillige]

She is responding to verbal commands which is a good sign:up:

Also looking into the facts and then watching the political spin put on this by the media can only be described as disgusting.

[Factor]

I hope a Judge sends this piece of sh*t to the chair express mail after a jury finds him guilty. Killing a 9 year old girl. What a coward. What does a child have to do with this or any kind of politic.

If my child, who is 3, was shot, I WOULD make sure that the killer would be killed himself if I was able. I have a conceal carry, and I would not hesitate to use it if I had too. Even if the suspect was restrained by bystanders.....I know I would go to jail, but my 3 year old girl is my world. I feel for the parents of that child.

This makes me sick. The needle is too kind for this subhuman.

[Armistead]

She is responding to verbal commands which is a good sign:up:

Also looking into the facts and then watching the political spin put on this by the media can only be described as disgusting.

It is disgusting what the media is doing. Haven't watched fox but I'm sure they're doing their part. MSNBC is disgusting, so far they've blamed Bill'O, Beck, Palin, Rush, ect...Demanded that they offer apology for inciting violence, need gun laws, ect.

Dumb old Ed on MSNBC went through all the same rants blaming everyone, then finished with now is not the time to blame, but pray.

Pray...code word for let's make it politics....

[Platapus]

His mission is not the upcoming one, but the one after. (It's also the last scheduled flight on the manifest.) It's going to be a while until that flight. Hopefully, by the time it comes up, she will have made a lot of recovery.


Thanks, I must have misread that his mission was coming up soon.

[Platapus]

If my child, who is 3, was shot, I WOULD make sure that the killer would be killed himself if I was able. I have a conceal carry, and I would not hesitate to use it if I had too. Even if the suspect was restrained by bystanders.....I know I would go to jail, but my 3 year old girl is my world. I feel for the parents of that child.

This makes me sick. The needle is too kind for this subhuman.

But what would that really accomplish other than fulfill some sense of revenge? Your life would be destroyed for what? And think of the rest of your family? Think of the other people who love/care/depend on you.... you would throw all that away simply for some emotional revenge?

Honestly, If you would abuse your CCW what way, I don't think you should have it. CCW is used for protection, not revenge. You are doing a disservice to those who treat their CCW seriously and responsibly.

[Factor]

In hindsight you are correct. But in the heat of the moment, I think it would be an action that I could not restrain myself from. I can't even imagine losing my child. Especially in this way. Instant, no warning. The mind can snap just as quick.

I am in fact glad, he did not kill himself and will now have to stand justice.

[razark]

Thanks, I must have misread that his mission was coming up soon.
STS-133 is the mission we're currently waiting on, with the cracked ET stringer issue. Mark Kelly is currently slated as commander of STS-134, targeted for launch in April. His twin brother, Scott Kelly, is currently in orbit as commander of the current ISS crew. They were looking forward to meeting in orbit, as the first siblings to be in flight together (They are actually the only siblings that have both been in space). Due to the delays, Kelly's mission will end before Kelly's targeted launch date.

[Factor]

Think of the other people who love/care/depend on you....


Hopefully I would be out in 12 to 15 on a manslaughter charge...:D

[The Third Man]

But that would be Conduct unbecoming of a troll and a douchebag.:o

Uncalled for personal attack. Had I used this kind of language in regard to another member...........Brig @ minumum. Where is the moderator now?

[Krauter]

Give it up. Really man? People are trying to stay On Topic and you drag it around and into the mud.

I for one think this is a terrible tragedy, not only for the loss of life, both the childs and the adult judge. But as well as the loss of this young mans life. Either he's locked into a padded cell or he's given the needle. Another young soul snuffed out because no one saw he needed help or guidance.

[Freiwillige]

Yea oddly enough photo's of him seem to show what what most would assume was a nice young man. Musical, Smart and polite. But the warning signs were there that his sanity was slipping. Myspace and youtube accounts point to a very troubled person spilling into the realm of nonsensical!

It is sad that he lost grip of reality and people had to die for it.

[Aramike]

Okay, I just read most of this thread and feel compelled to insert my two cents due to absolute outrage. Quite frankly, it'll only be a function of typing over speech that expletives don't make an appearance:

People, a CONGRESSWOMAN is most likely near death, and a FEDERAL JUDGE is dead - that is a NATIONAL TRAGEDY, not political talking point.

In case you Americans trying to assign blame to any certain ideology, perhaps it escapes you that we have an electoral process designed to PEACEFULLY settle disputes on leadership according to Constitutional guidelines. The idea that ANY American would, rather than mourn the loss, prefer to draw parallels with ANY American, PEACEFUL movement is DISGUSTING, and those people should be ashamed of themselves. The fact that there are those of you who can't pause even a day in consideration of such tragedy is precisely the problem in a peaceful political process which causes DIVISIVENESS and ultimately, extremism.

Ask any extremist - they have plenty of facts to back up their views. The problem is that they twist the facts in order to justify foregone conclusions rather than examining said facts as a method of drawing such conclusions. And that is EXACTLY what I see happening by certain people in this thread.

Despite what you think about this Congresswoman's views, she's a duly elected representative of the people, and her opinions are permitted by the same Constitution which allows you to openly share yours. The same thing goes for those who are opposed to her views. The idea that either means a damn when one or two lunatics decide to engage in such atrocities is absurd and petty, and speaks volumes about the character of those who'd engage in such speculation, especially with no information or evidence supporting such claims.

Un-freakin'-believable.

[Gerald]

Authorities said they are not convinced one person was behind a shooting rampage at a town hall-style event Saturday in Tucson, Ariz., that left six dead, including a federal judge, and critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who police said was the target of the attack.

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, from the Pima County Sheriff's Department, said in a statement that a second person was seen at the location of the shooting, and was possibly associated with the suspect in custody. The person was described as a Caucasian male with dark hair, approximately 40-50 years old, who was last seen wearing blue jeans and a dark blue jacket.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-congresswoman-reportedly-shot-public-event/


Note: Update record, Published January 09, 2011

[Armistead]

Okay, I just read most of this thread and feel compelled to insert my two cents due to absolute outrage. Quite frankly, it'll only be a function of typing over speech that expletives don't make an appearance:

People, a CONGRESSWOMAN is most likely near death, and a FEDERAL JUDGE is dead - that is a NATIONAL TRAGEDY, not political talking point.

In case you Americans trying to assign blame to any certain ideology, perhaps it escapes you that we have an electoral process designed to PEACEFULLY settle disputes on leadership according to Constitutional guidelines. The idea that ANY American would, rather than mourn the loss, prefer to draw parallels with ANY American, PEACEFUL movement is DISGUSTING, and those people should be ashamed of themselves. The fact that there are those of you who can't pause even a day in consideration of such tragedy is precisely the problem in a peaceful political process which causes DIVISIVENESS and ultimately, extremism.

Ask any extremist - they have plenty of facts to back up their views. The problem is that they twist the facts in order to justify foregone conclusions rather than examining said facts as a method of drawing such conclusions. And that is EXACTLY what I see happening by certain people in this thread.

Despite what you think about this Congresswoman's views, she's a duly elected representative of the people, and her opinions are permitted by the same Constitution which allows you to openly share yours. The same thing goes for those who are opposed to her views. The idea that either means a damn when one or two lunatics decide to engage in such atrocities is absurd and petty, and speaks volumes about the character of those who'd engage in such speculation, especially with no information or evidence supporting such claims.

Un-freakin'-believable.

I'll agree with you regarding this case, but overall Americans now have total distain for government. You have to remember this nation was founded because people got tired of a government taxing them without representation. As we become a two class society because of a failed government, I'm afraid instead of nutjobs, you'll see desperate people doing terrible things. In fact they do, crime has risen in about every state due to unemployment.

Your seeing Americans just now, lil too late as usual, try to fight back legally as new parties pop up, like them or not. The problem is most Americans didn't pay attention to the slow ruination of our nation.

Congressmen are now getting death threats way over the norm over various issues. However, we are a divided nation and getting worse.
We hate our partisan government, but we are even worse as a people.

We have an armed popuation, the government had better start taking that into consideration as they ruin this nation. I think soon you'll stop seeing politicians amongst the people.

[CaptainHaplo]

For the dead, the injured, and the families of the victims, my heartfelt prayers go out.

I am not going to read 11 pages of arguments - this goes beyond a letter by someone's name. Every one of the people hurt or killed was a husbamd, a wife, a mother or a father, a son or a daughter to someone. The violent actions of a deranged person against ANYONE - elected official or not, is a tragedy. The political views of the person are not important, they are a living, breathing human being. Its not about the one person - its about them all. Yes, the "elite" are getting more press, but that is the nature of the news cycle.

As for the alleged shooter, best thing the news could have done was not report his name or anything about him, simply state he is in custody and is being charged. Why give him noteriety? All to fill tv time.....

[Platapus]

\
We have an armed popuation, the government had better start taking that into consideration as they ruin this nation.

I think that is a totally inappropriate statement to post on this forum.

From your post, it reads like you condone this attitude. I hope I am wrong. But I think that such wordings are inappropriate for this website.

I don't want to be a censure, but any talk of citizens using arms against our elected government deeply disturbs me.

Perhaps I am the only one who thinks like this. In that case, I will keep my opinions to myself.

[Armistead]

I think that is a totally inappropriate statement to post on this forum.

From your post, it reads like you condone this attitude. I hope I am wrong. But I think that such wordings are inappropriate for this website.

I don't want to be a censure, but any talk of citizens using arms against our elected government deeply disturbs me.

Perhaps I am the only one who thinks like this. In that case, I will keep my opinions to myself.

Read again, I replied to the previous poster saying that violence in no way applies to this case. I think it would be smart for our government to consider we have an armed population as they take this nation into ruin. I in no way said shoot people silly. But make no doubt about it, an armed population as ours that goe's into economic chaos is a dangerous situation the government had better start thinking about as they lead us into a two class system. Look at the riots in Europe, those happen here I dread to think what could happen.

If our government continues leading this nation down a road to destruction forcing americans into poverty to create an elite class don't think all hell wouldn't result...It won't be nut cases doing the shooting, it will be desperate people.

I take it the "could our nation go into civil war thread offended you", but why I don't think that's possible or even an armed revolution , people that were once law abiding may feel the need to strike back.

Have you not watched the news or listened to politics the last year...You have politicians making statements "americans resorting to their second amendment rights" Even yesterday all politics, every one blaming everyone.

We can never assume or let our government assume they have the right to rule us with no regard. For the most part they do that now, but it would be dangerous for us all if they do. We best not forget for good or bad almost every government came to power through revolution and failed the same way. My fear is for my kids. I see a day where politicians hide behind walls why who knows what happens to the rest of us.

My post in not condoning...it should be an obvious warning. Would I ever fight back...yea, if total anarchy took over or they tried to disarm me.

[GoldenRivet]

there is a time when armed insurrection is the only option.

we've not reached that point in America by a long shot.

I don't think that this morons attempt on the representative's life was meant to be some sort of violent overthrow attempt... he is simply a nut.

i dont think that anyone has made a remark which supports this violence - or any violence for that matter.

I do think that Armistead makes a valid point though about the government being careful... threats of violence are 15 times higher than they have historically been, and there have been direct connections drawn between the moment there was an increase in threats and vandalism and the moment this health care bill became a major player.

surely to the God that democrats don't believe in - that fact alone sends congress a message.

another question:

is it truly an "elected government" when you are forced to vote for the candidate which will screw you most gently?

i dont remember ever once in my life voting FOR someone... only AGAINST someone else.:nope:

[Armistead]

My point exactly. Government has always been corrupt to a degree. They even have detailed plans to protect who in case of total economic collapse...themselves. Since about the 60's politics changed, sure always heated, but politicians fought each other over the will of the people, today they serve special interest.

What happened to Gabby and those others shot is a crime of the worse kind. She actually seems to be someone half way decent trying to make change,.

I honestly don't think this nation could in fact have a revolution, even armed that could change things because we're such a melting pot of different idea's and people, but could we fall into a nation of chaos...we'd be fools to think it wouldn't happen. If that happens people will rightfully blame the government.

We do have many groups that would love to invade and toss out congress by force. These groups are growing by leaps. Heck, thousands of Americans die every year basically serving the greed of government. Heck, I would say our government is more crooked than the King we fought against to become a nation.

Our only future hope is elected officials change...but each cycle they become more partisan, more divided and use stronger language and wonder why these things happen. Maybe not so much this nut case, but death threats have increased 300% to government officials. They create such a climate of hate and partisanship to serve greed, well, you'd better expect these results. They can't act the way they do and serve special interest and then tell everyone else to love one another, pray and get along.


I pray I never see the day it all comes down to people shooting each other why government officials hide behind steel walls eating ribeyes and drinking fine wine. Most fail to see just one major event could place us there.


It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

[Skybird]

Considering the destructive and militant vitriol being spread in American politics between Dems and Reps, the martial rethoric and the symbolism of firearms and high level of hate and aggression being displayed, I think it is a miracle that things like this do not happen much more often.

[gimpy117]

it is a scary thought skybird. guns are even being incorporated into political events. That scares me a little bit.

[Aramike]

Considering the destructive and militant vitriol being spread in American politics between Dems and Reps, the martial rethoric and the symbolism of firearms and high level of hate and aggression being displayed, I think it is a miracle that things like this do not happen much more often.I can see your point, but I disagree. I think our system is designed very well to allow for heated and outright nasty discourse while keeping such events too far beyond the pale to be ordinary. Maybe it's simply because I'm old enough to remember far worse, but I think that modern media has the ability to magnify and personalize tragedy that we begin to look more deeply for its causes, and start to see things that aren't there.

[breadcatcher101]

No surprise there, Skybird.

Almost all of us, although many are armed, have no intent to inflict such carnage.

I for one am armed for defensive purposes only, not against the goverment but against the criminal elements we have here. My wife and family all know how to handle firearms myself ever since I was age 10.

We all target shoot for enjoyment, some of us hunt, and all are armed just in case you have a home invasion.

Being from the South, this act we speak of, trying to kill an unarmed woman who meant you no harm is unspeakable to us.

In the old days in these parts he would have been hanged and remembered as a coward for his deeds.

Today he will probably never be executed but kept locked up why others ponder his actions and wonder why.

[goldorak]

Considering the destructive and militant vitriol being spread in American politics between Dems and Reps, the martial rethoric and the symbolism of firearms and high level of hate and aggression being displayed, I think it is a miracle that things like this do not happen much more often.


Yes I have to say its quite astounding.
The US political discourse is very radicalized much more so than european ones, and yet homegrown terrorism, political terrorism as we have know in europe is extraordinarly rare. Maybe that will change as the US continues its way to a 2 way society, and a society were the concept of the american dream is all but dead. Some months they were talking about this on NPR. Very fascinating stuff, and to a certain extent its actually quite sad.

[tater]

Considering the destructive and militant vitriol being spread in American politics between Dems and Reps, the martial rethoric and the symbolism of firearms and high level of hate and aggression being displayed, I think it is a miracle that things like this do not happen much more often.

US politics is no more vitriolic now than it has ever been, and the availability of firearms is LESS than ever before in US history. Particularly "state of the art" military weapons. In the Adams Administration citizens could—and did—own every single item in the US military's possession. Even warships. Laws restricting even machine guns are very modern.

The lack of political violence in the US is in fact the norm, even with more weapons and bile floating around. Heck, Washington had the Whiskey Rebellion.

Bottom line is that 200 years of US political history demonstrates you are wrong. Violence sometimes happens, but more often than not it's by kooks, not some sort of definable political movement. And the kooks are roughly evenly divided in the spectrum (left slightly more than right, actually, on assassination attempts, least for executives and candidates). The assumption or thought that things now are worse, better, whatever than the past is frequently heard, but has no basis in fact. It's like polls to name the best presidents, "modern" guys always score as more important than they deserve.

[Armistead]

US politics is no more vitriolic now than it has ever been, and the availability of firearms is LESS than ever before in US history. Particularly "state of the art" military weapons. In the Adams Administration citizens could—and did—own every single item in the US military's possession. Even warships. Laws restricting even machine guns are very modern.

The lack of political violence in the US is in fact the norm, even with more weapons and bile floating around. Heck, Washington had the Whiskey Rebellion.

Bottom line is that 200 years of US political history demonstrates you are wrong. Violence sometimes happens, but more often than not it's by kooks, not some sort of definable political movement. And the kooks are roughly evenly divided in the spectrum (left slightly more than right, actually, on assassination attempts, least for executives and candidates). The assumption or thought that things now are worse, better, whatever than the past is frequently heard, but has no basis in fact. It's like polls to name the best presidents, "modern" guys always score as more important than they deserve.

In the past violence was used for a resolve, moreso as we struggled to become a nation as one to the 1900's. Certainly there were other times, prohibition started the gangster and mafia movements to a point of almost equal power to the government and people protected these folks as they saw the government infringe on our rights.

During the depression robbers and crooks were often seen as hero's, fighting the mean banks.

But overall few people had the military weapons you spoke of. Back then people seldom got violent to the other. Americans for the most part were of same mind and values...you know, the day when your kids could walk to school 5 miles and a parent not worry about it. Now our population has more than doubled and we face complex issues.

The fact is our past certainly shows we are capable of turning violent again. Overall, we are more in debt than we've ever been at a time the world is most dangerous. Once we went off the gold standard it went to hell.

We only look at out past to realize we could become that way in the future, but with our popualtion it could lead to chaos....as many nations are now finding out.

Course, I'm sure they're some GOP members that would feel another world war would solve everything.

[gimpy117]

well like Mr.Moore or not I though bowling for columbine was a very interesting video on the fact of gun violence in america.

[AVGWarhawk]

IMO the young man who did this tragic act is no different then this lunatic here:

http://nstarzone.com/hinckley.jpg

John Hinkley JR. Loner, loser and got nothing to lose. Did his best to impress Jody Foster. How best to gain attention from a world were no one pays attention to you? Pull out the hardware and start blasting. Let me guess...both of these guys were reaching out for help...:doh: There is more to this kids story then what we know. It will come out eventually.


For now, my sincere condolences to the families involved and specifically the family of the 9 year old girl who was....'just interested in government/politics and was asked to go."

[tater]

My point stands, though, anyone who thinks the US is more partisan, or more vitriolic, or has more violent political tendencies than the past is quite simply ignorant of American history.

It doesn't surprise me that this is the picture painted in the press—particularly outside the US (though I doubt most US reporters have a good grasp on American history, either). It makes better headlines ("historic partisanship grips congress!" LOL. Do these morons not know that people got in fist fights or DUELS in the past, lol).

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I thought some of you guys might find this amusing:

http://obamalondon.blogspot.com/2011/01/inexplicable-edits-on-sarah-palins.html

[Takeda Shingen]

I thought some of you guys might find this amusing:

http://obamalondon.blogspot.com/2011/01/inexplicable-edits-on-sarah-palins.html

And so you are saying that Sarah Palin is the real shooter? Or are you saying that Sarah Palin's 'target' imagery is responsible for sending the shooter on his rampage? Or are you saying that Sarah Palin, through the acess of a time machine, identified people that would be targets of violence and posted them on her website? Or are you saying that Sarah Palin's editing of her own Facebook page makes her a clear and present danger to all serving public officials?

I don't think you're saying any of those things. I think that you are saying that you don't like Sarah Palin, and are hijacking the attempted murder of a serving public official in a very distasteful attempt to smear her. I don't like Palin either, but posting the type of insinuation that you have is something that only the most ectothermic could think was a good idea.

[razark]

I thought some of you guys might find this amusing
Do we really need to continue playing this event for political gain, especially the death of a child? :nope:

[Feuer Frei!]

I have nothing to offer this thread other than my sincerest condolenses to those affected by this tragedy.
What a cruel and evil society we live in.

[Bubblehead1980]

Do we really need to continue playing this event for political gain, especially the death of a child? :nope:


No, it does not but the Left will exploit this as much as possible.Instead of calling this horrible incident what it is(shooting rampage by a mentally disturbed loner), they will (some have already have) place blame on the current political climate and rhetoric by opponents of the Obama agenda.This guy was a loser who was expelled from community college and rejected by the military who is also unbalanced and could not handle that so he acted out as crazies tend to do.

The greatest thing we as a nation have to fear out of this incident is the ramifications that COULD affect freedom of speech and gun rights.I would almost bet some jagoff in Congress will use this an excuse to try and further erode the second amendment.Some Left leaning State Rep or Senator in AZ will no doubt try this at the state level.I already heard some Left wing puppet on MSNBC mention something about AZ not requiring a permit for concealed carry being "looked at", yep the wheels are in motion.Criticism of the President, Government etc will be prob be targeted as much as possible, all in the name of"safety".Access to members of congress may be further limited.Former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel said it best "never let a crisis go to waste".Maybe our congress will act like adults, but I doubt it.

To be fair, some of the Right would prob exploit this also but that does not make it the right thing to do.This was a horrible incident by a deranged nut, nothing more, nothing less.The Left needs to not use this as a way to further circumvent that pesky thing they despise so much, The US Constitution.

Oh yea, can't wait to discuss this in a classroom full of Liberals tomorrow, ahhh.

[Bubblehead1980]

I have nothing to offer this thread other than my sincerest condolenses to those affected by this tragedy.
What a cruel and evil society we live in.


Not our society, just like any society there a nutjobs who do horrible things.Our society is overall a good one, don't blame it.I saw part of a thing on Dateline tonight about the victims who died, the nine year old girl who died, that part just upset me.I hope this guy gets the death penalty, if anyone ever deserved it, this loser did.

[Blood_splat]

WoW 2011!

[razark]

No, it does not but the Left will exploit this as much as possible.
Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity in your first sentence. :roll:

Edit:
And now that I actually finished reading it, that holds for the rest of your post, as well.

[Feuer Frei!]

Not our society, just like any society there a nutjobs who do horrible things.Our society is overall a good one, don't blame it.I saw part of a thing on Dateline tonight about the victims who died, the nine year old girl who died, that part just upset me.I hope this guy gets the death penalty, if anyone ever deserved it, this loser did.

Yea, my comment " what a cruel and evil society we live in" wasn't quiet right, i meant to say: what a cruel and evil society it can be.
A horrible tragedy, nonetheless.

[Bubblehead1980]

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity in your first sentence. :roll:

Edit:
And now that I actually finished reading it, that holds for the rest of your post, as well.


Oh the eye roll:woot: I was fair and pointed out the other side would prob do it as well, but already seen it from the Left.I hate it, it's a tragedy and should not be exploited for any reason.

This shooting was not about politics, it was a disturbed loser acting out, nothing more.Makes me sick to see it exploited by anyone.However, denying that the Left is already trying to exploit this and will continue to is living in fantasy land.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yea, my comment " what a cruel and evil society we live in" wasn't quiet right, i meant to say: what a cruel and evil society it can be.
A horrible tragedy, nonetheless.


Ah ok, well yes it can be but any society can be cruel.

[razark]

No, it does not but the Left will exploit this as much as possible.
Yeah, because only the left has been spewing rhetoric about this. I've seen plenty of people trying to use this event for multiple reasons already.

This guy was a loser who was expelled from community college and rejected by the military who is also unbalanced and could not handle that so he acted out as crazies tend to do.
So why did you lead off with a political statement? And why is the rest of your post full of the same BS?

The greatest thing we as a nation have to fear out of this incident is the ramifications that COULD affect freedom of speech and gun rights.
Yeah, there could be ramifications...
Why don't we leave that until after they're done counting the dead and wounded? Let's let the families of those directly affected cry for a few days before we start trying to turn this into a push for our favorite fear mongering or pet legislation?

... Left leaning ... Left wing ...
Of course. The evil leftists were probably waiting for just such a thing to happen so they could push their legislation through.

Criticism of the President, Government etc will be prob be targeted as much as possible, all in the name of"safety".
Ugh. "Free Speech Areas" set up wherever Bush was speaking come to mind? The left is not solely to blame for such things.

To be fair, some of the Right would prob exploit this also but that does not make it the right thing to do.
Tell the right wing to drop all the crap they've used 9/11 for.

This was a horrible incident by a deranged nut, nothing more, nothing less.The Left needs to not use this as a way to further circumvent that pesky thing they despise so much, The US Constitution.
*ahem* Patriot Act.

Oh yea, can't wait to discuss this in a classroom full of Liberals tomorrow, ahhh.
Yeah, I can bet.

[Tribesman]

Oh yea, can't wait to discuss this in a classroom full of Liberals tomorrow, ahhh.
Wasn't the nut who did the murders known for his rants in classroom against all the others who didn't see the world his way?
Apparently he ranted a lot about the two words you used before what is quoted above.

Isn't it funny that with your moans about the "others" politics over this issue you show yourself to be that you wish to condemn, and given the nature of some of your rants you mirror some of the rants of that conspiracy nut in this topic.

[Skybird]

German opinion piece (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article12059774/Die-Amerikaner-muessen-sich-mit-sich-selbst-versoehnen.html?print=true#reqdrucken)that pretty much mirrors my feelings about the background.

[Freiwillige]

Wasn't the nut who did the murders known for his rants in classroom against all the others who didn't see the world his way?
Apparently he ranted a lot about the two words you used before what is quoted above.

Isn't it funny that with your moans about the "others" politics over this issue you show yourself to be that you wish to condemn, and given the nature of some of your rants you mirror some of the rants of that conspiracy nut in this topic.

That's a little below the belt me thinks.

[Freiwillige]

Just found out the Judge who was killed was the same judge who made headlines with this story in 2009

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/9/16-illegals-sue-arizona-rancher/


He was well like and respected by his peers RIP

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,738627,00.html

Following this weekend's tragic shooting, many on the left in the United States are calling for Sarah Palin and the Tea Party to be called to account for their alleged culpability in the killings. But these claims are spurious and could do more to help the left's political detractors than harm them.

Saturday's assassination attempt on Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is a tragedy, but this tragedy could also present an opportunity in American politics -- a chance to return to a more civil political debate and finally overcome the divisions that have characterized the country since the presidency of George W. Bush. But only hours after the assassination attempt on the Congresswomen, which left six people dead and 14 injured, the debate showed signs of derailing.

Of all people, it is precisely those who have complained the loudest about the culture of debate -- about the rhetoric of the Tea Party, the right wing's harsh words and the baseless Obama-Hitler comparisons -- who are now poisoning the debate with their own baseless insinuations. With little reliance on facts, they began searching for scapegoats for the attack and they found them, selectively, among the right wing, the Tea Party, Republican Party boss Michael Steele and Tea Party heroine Sarah Palin.

The accusations being lodged are grave. "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin," leftist blogger Markos Moulitsas sneered after the bloodbath. Meanwhile, MSNBC commentator Keith Olbermann called for Palin to be ousted from the Republican Party if she didn't repudiate her role in "amplifying violence and violent imagery in politics." In his column in the New York Times, Paul Krugman sought to link the "toxic rhetoric" coming from right-wing preachers of hate with the assassination attempt. And former member of Congress Chris Carney said Palin should "say she was wrong."

A Year of Political Hatred and Defamation

There is no doubt that 2010 was a bad year for the United States, a year of political hatred and defamation. A year in which it became fashionable to dispute President Obama's American citizenship and to issue threats against members of Congress who voted in favor of sweeping health care reforms. But have Palin and Co., with their words, truly paved the way for a crime like this to be committed? Did 22-year-old suspect Jared Lee Loughner really shoot because Sarah Palin marked crosshairs on a map of electoral districts on her blog where Democrats were facing re-election, including that of Giffords? Did he murder because Palin's Facebook page includes her infamous line: "Do not retreat! Instead - reload"?

The language used by Palin and a few Tea Party supporters is doubtlessly raw and inappropriate, but there is in no way any proof whatsoever that they inspired the crime committed this weekend in Arizona. What little is known about the perpetrator does not suggest that he was a supporter of the Tea Party or an admirer of Palin's -- he doesn't even appear to have any clear political convictions. His favorite books include the "Communist Manifesto," Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and "Peter Pan," an erratic hodge podge. So far, there is no evidence that there were any political motives behind the crime.

Indeed, the massive criticism of Sarah Palin is misguided. This is not only due to the fact that the accusation is baseless, but also because the calculated attempt to weaken Palin in this manner could ultimately backfire.

The reasoning is quite simple: Palin has always profited in the role of victim -- a victim of the liberal elite. Time and again, she has been made fun of -- when, for example, she spoke for the first time about foreign policy during the 2008 presidential campaign, and later when she wrote notes on her hand during speeches and television appearances. But every time people made fun of the Alaska politician or attacked her as being superficial and unqualified, it merely helped deepen the support of her followers. Now, the allegation that she carries partial responsibility for what has happened in Arizona could turn out to do more to help than harm her.

Yet again, she could emerge as a political martyr.

This is from the English edition of Der Spiegel. However, the same magazine in its German edition also published this somewhat opposite kind of comment:

Polit-Schlachtfeld Arizona - "Wir sind der Grabstein Amerikas" (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,738569,00.html)

It's about the upheated, vitriolic political climate in which hate-filled martial rethorics get used, displaying a worrying failure of even a minimum of political culture. It also tells the background of judge Roll who Firewall just has mentioned.


Harte Einwanderungsgesetze, lasches Waffenrecht, Wut auf Washington - der US-Bundesstaat Arizona, Schauplatz des Blutbads von Tucson, gilt als Brennpunkt der hitzigen Politikdebatten in den USA. Vor allem Demokraten bekamen dort zuletzt oft Drohungen.

[Takeda Shingen]

No, it does not but the Left will exploit this as much as possible.

And yet, you turn and do precisely the same thing. I told Gimpy that he was wrong for doing so. I told The Third Man that he was wrong for doing so. I told Torvald that he was wrong for doing so. Accordingly, you are also wrong for doing so.

For the record, that makes two on the left and two on the right that have tried to manipulate this tragedy for gain.

[mookiemookie]

To be fair

No. Spending 1% of your post with some weaselly comment about "oh maybe the right will probably use this for political gain" and then spending the other 99% beating the other side over the head and using the tragedy for political traction does not make you fair. It makes you a partisan political hack. And just as guilty of what you are accusing the other side of doing - using someone's death to attack the other side. So it also makes you a hypocrite and classless too.

[tater]

UNtil demonstrated one way or another, we don't even know the guy's politics. We do know he's very likely clinically nuts.

When Hasan shouted allah akbar and shot up Ft. Hood we were told to withhold judgement even though we knew far more about THAT perp. Was he also crazy? Possible, but it's a lot harder to present with frank mental illness, then get through college, med school and residency, and this kid in AZ was clearly pretty nuts even in community college or wherever he was.

A safe assumption for this kid IMHO has a frank mental illness til proved otherwise. Note that his politics, regardless will not have been picked rationally, since he's not rational.

Blaming Palin is quite frankly idiotic (because of a "targeted" picture). Obama once said that if his political opponents brought a knife to a fight that they should bring a gun. Shall we hold him responsible if there is any attack on the other side? (some likely would, but it would be similarly stupid).

[mookiemookie]

Blaming Palin is quite frankly idiotic (because of a "targeted" picture). Obama once said that if his political opponents brought a knife to a fight that they should bring a gun. Shall we hold him responsible if there is any attack on the other side? (some likely would, but it would be similarly stupid).

Well as a completely separate issue from this tragedy, I think there is a growing number of people who would indeed like to see the tone of the rhetoric from both sides toned down. The Stewart/Colbert "Rally to Restore Sanity" is proof of that.

While I doubt this act was caused by or influenced by the heated political climate, and happened simply because the guy was an unhinged loon, if it results in less gun imagery in politics and a less "revolution! armed revolt!" etc. tone then I think that's a positive result.

[Armistead]

Just imagine if this happened right before the last election....

[Feuer Frei!]

Just imagine if this happened right before the last election....
Yea, it still would be a tragedy.
I don't know how to take this comment.

Am i missing something here?
Is it the fact that the unfortunate woman is a Congress person, ie a 'political' figure that that is the reason this thread has taken a 'politically-flavored' direction?

Isn't it more 'appropriate' and respectful to curb one's political diatribes and viewpoints of a political or otherwise off-topic nature for once, and not to hypothesize or crystal ball the reasons behind this tragic state of events?
Certainly at this time?
Isn't it more 'tasteful' and apt to acknowledge this as another 'stain' in our simple but complex existence as a human race on this earth?
Isn't it also, out of pure respect to those that have been affected by this tragedy, either directly or indirectly, to just 'leave their condolenses and well-wishes to those affected?
I understand the 'General Forum' topics that are posted are posted for, and might i add generally for inviting discussions and viewpoints and ideas in general.
I have nothing against that, of course.
However, what i fail to understand and what does not sit well with me, is that threads like this one, where it contains nothing but tragedy and suffering and pain to many, is 'used', in one way or another to get off-topic, to advertise one's 'hypotheticals' or 'crystal balling', or one's political views.

Please show some respect to the 6 people killed and their families, also to the congress woman, who is fighting for her life.
Courtesy of the Washington Post:
a tribute/profile of the 6 people that lost their lives, inc a 9 year old girl- R.I.P.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/arizona_shooting_victims_the_f.html

[gimpy117]

While I doubt this act was caused by or influenced by the heated political climate, and happened simply because the guy was an unhinged loon, if it results in less gun imagery in politics and a less "revolution! armed revolt!" etc. tone then I think that's a positive result.

Exactly, even though he acted alone, it still will likely serve as an example of just exactly what would happen when you advocate violence. Where before, you could drop a subtle comment about revolution, now suggesting shooting of opponents will bring this incident right to everyones minds.

If the tea party is any kind of smart, they will stop ANY kind of references to armed revolution, and should certainly stop gun related political events and things like the crosshairs page on Palin's website.

[TheSatyr]

Hell,people should go to the Yahoo forums on this. The far left are having a total and complete meltdown over this tragedy.

"The teabaggers and rebublicans should banned"

"Sarah Palin,Glenn Beck and Rush Limbough should be tried as accomplices to murder and Fox News should be sued and shut down for inciting a Murder."

"All Republicans should be rounded up and put into concentration camps"

There are calls for the FCC to shut down all conservative tv and radio programs

Some of the left wing nutjobs are even calling for anyone who disagrees with Obama to be tried for Treason.

I'm sorry,but the person who claimed that the far left was trying to take advantage of this for their own agendas appears to be right.

I have NEVER seen so much hatred and vitriol towards the Republican party before. Even during the Bush administration it was never this bad.

The thoughts and ideas these people are promoting I find to be actually scary. They sound like the kind of people who would love it if we had a Hitler or Stalin.

I feel truly sorry for the true Democrats that are out there. The left wing fringe of your party is not doing you any favors right now.

But then,the right wing fringe is just as idiotic.

[Sailor Steve]

So you go on a diatribe about one side, and then pay lip service to the other in a tiny caveat at the bottom? We tried to keep it just about the tragedy. We don't need political rallies in a thread like this.

[gimpy117]

Hell,people should go to the Yahoo forums on this. The far left are having a total and complete meltdown over this tragedy.

and some republicans are facebook are saying its good shes "out of the way"

it goes both ways. random nuts on the internet do not an entire party make

[Ducimus]

After reading only the first two pages, and then in disgust, glossing over to the last three pages of this thread to see what direction it went, I can think of only ONE response, and it is this:

Not so dear die hard politico's of the left and right persuasion:
Screw you both. The whole country could (and probably will) crumble down around you, but the only thing anyone can count on from either of you, is for both of you pointing the finger at the other assigning blame. All the while maintaining the "innocence" and "purity" of your favorite team (R or D) or favorite direction (Left or right). So screw you both, and the horse you rode in on.

[Bubblehead1980]

[QUOTE=TheSatyr;1571423]

I'm sorry,but the person who claimed that the far left was trying to take advantage of this for their own agendas appears to be right.QUOTE]


That person was me and I was basically scorned by the usual people I argue with on here for being "political" and a "hypocrite" when I was in fact pointing out how the left is already using this tragedy to blame those who oppose Obama/Progressive agenda.

I've seen all parts of the left do this so far...the regular citizens , the "Professional Left" on MSNBC and CNN and even heard a couple Lefty politicians make remarks saying this is why gun control is needed and the recent "hate speech" aka speech from those who are against them should be looked at aka find ways to silence them if possible.When the smoke settles from this, we will see attempts to further curb gun and speech rights.Calling someone out for exploiting the death of 6 people and assault of multiple others is not playing politics, it's just the right thing to do.

[Takeda Shingen]

That person was me and I was basically scorned by the usual people I argue with on here for being "political" and a "hypocrite" when I was in fact pointing out how the left is already using this tragedy to blame those who oppose Obama/Progressive agenda.

I've seen all parts of the left do this so far...the regular citizens , the "Professional Left" on MSNBC and CNN and even heard a couple Lefty politicians make remarks saying this is why gun control is needed and the recent "hate speech" aka speech from those who are against them should be looked at aka find ways to silence them if possible.When the smoke settles from this, we will see attempts to further curb gun and speech rights.

:nope:

You can't turn it off, even for a day and in the face of tragedy, can you?

[DarkFish]

After reading only the first two pages, and then in disgust, glossing over to the last three pages of this thread to see what direction it went, I can think of only ONE response, and it is this:

Not so dear die hard politico's of the left and right persuasion:
Screw you both. The whole country could (and probably will) crumble down around you, but the only thing anyone can count on from either of you, is for both of you pointing the finger at the other assigning blame. All the while maintaining the "innocence" and "purity" of your favorite team (R or D) or favorite direction (Left or right). So screw you both, and the horse you rode in on.:up:

I was in fact pointing out how the left is already using this tragedy to blame those who oppose Obama/Progressive agenda.You really should start to read some of the posts in this thread. Like for example the one from Ducimus I just quoted:nope:

[Kongo Otto]

Most of the Posters in this thread should seriously think about this:

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7, 3-5

[Subnuts]

Why can't some of you folks just wait until after the bodies have cooled off before using a tragedy to promote your personal political viewpoint? Six people are dead, a nine-year old girl was murdered in cold blood, and the first thing to pop into your heads are "FU Sarah Palin!" or "hurrr... I wonder how the sociobommucrats the gonna spin this one!"

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. :nope:

[Platapus]

Read an interesting commentary today on this issue.

When we had the Fort Hood shooting, people went out of their way, and IMO rightly so, to point out that this was a single nut job who happened to be Muslim. It was not a Muslim thing, it was a nut job thing.

Well if that attitude was correct for that case, then why is the AZ shooting any different. As far as we know so far (and we do NOT know all the facts) this was a single nut job who happened to shoot a congresswomen who was the target of some political rhetoric.

We still have no proof this is anything but a nut job.

Until some facts and not just coincidence comes to light, it must remain just another nutter committing a terrible crime.

Emotionally, some may want to make connections or not make connections. Well that's human nature. But logically, nothing has been demonstrated yet.

One should never confuse emotional feelings with logical thought.

I am waiting for all the facts to be discovered before opining.

[Armistead]

Fox just mentioned the Ft. Hood shooting and how Obama and many of the same Congressmen stated to slow down, don't jump to conclusions because he was muslim....A muslim attacking a military base and we shouldn't expect he did it because he was muslim so calm down....he may just be a nut.

It is becoming sickening how the left is pushing it for political gain. What a discredit to Gabby. This nut has been chasing Gabby for 3 years now.

[mookiemookie]

It is becoming sickening how the left is pushing it for political gain. What a discredit to Gabby. This nut has been chasing Gabby for 3 years now.

Where you wrong is thinking it's just one side or another is pushing this for political gain. Anyone that does it, and it's both sides, is a disgusting human being.

The one time you'll probably ever see me agree with Gold coin Beck is when he says: "Turning these horrific events into an opportunity for a political attack is a very childish response to a very grown-up problem. This is not about winning a political blame game."

[Captain Vlad]

After reading only the first two pages, and then in disgust, glossing over to the last three pages of this thread to see what direction it went, I can think of only ONE response, and it is this:

Not so dear die hard politico's of the left and right persuasion:
Screw you both. The whole country could (and probably will) crumble down around you, but the only thing anyone can count on from either of you, is for both of you pointing the finger at the other assigning blame. All the while maintaining the "innocence" and "purity" of your favorite team (R or D) or favorite direction (Left or right). So screw you both, and the horse you rode in on.

Amen.

[nikimcbee]

Where you wrong is thinking it's just one side or another is pushing this for political gain. Anyone that does it, and it's both sides, is a disgusting human being.

The one time you'll probably ever see me agree with Gold coin Beck is when he says: "Turning these horrific events into an opportunity for a political attack is a very childish response to a very grown-up problem. This is not about winning a political blame game."

OMG!!! This is breaking news!

Mookie agrees with GB on something:o. The Aztecs were right, the world really is coming to an end.:haha:

First Mookie admits he's a socialist, now he agrees with GB on something. So the conclusion I came to is: Mookie is in a political intervention 12-step program. So, by step 12, Mookie will have a Reagan shirt that says "Win one for the Gipper!":hmmm:

[Platapus]

After reading only the first two pages, and then in disgust, glossing over to the last three pages of this thread to see what direction it went, I can think of only ONE response, and it is this:

Not so dear die hard politico's of the left and right persuasion:
Screw you both. The whole country could (and probably will) crumble down around you, but the only thing anyone can count on from either of you, is for both of you pointing the finger at the other assigning blame. All the while maintaining the "innocence" and "purity" of your favorite team (R or D) or favorite direction (Left or right). So screw you both, and the horse you rode in on.


Party before country also applies to some citizens, not just politicians.

It is sad when some people can not deal with life in terms other than a political "us vs. them" concept.

Your thoughts represent exactly why I became an Independent. I am not a Republican nor a Democrat, but an American.

However, I must strongly object to your last statement. I think it was totally inappropriate...... I like horses. :)

[nikimcbee]

I am not a Republican nor a Democrat, but an American.


Here Here!:salute:

[Freiwillige]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj47lB1a-0Y&feature=player_embedded

Father of nine year old killed doesn't want politicians to use her as an excuse to restrict Americans freedoms.

[gimpy117]

I don't think freedoms are going to be limited, But i think we need to first take a look at the violence in this nation, and second our support systems for the mentally ill, like this kid. He shouldn't have slipped through the cracks. If somebody would have noticed and helped this kid, this would never have happened.

[mookiemookie]

OMG!!! This is breaking news!

Mookie agrees with GB on something:o. The Aztecs were right, the world really is coming to an end.:haha:

First Mookie admits he's a socialist, now he agrees with GB on something. So the conclusion I came to is: Mookie is in a political intervention 12-step program. So, by step 12, Mookie will have a Reagan shirt that says "Win one for the Gipper!":hmmm:

:rotfl2: Where's my gold coin?!

[nikimcbee]

:rotfl2: Where's my gold coin?!

In the mail...
The best part is, we didn't even need to put you in the comfy chair.

[Ducimus]

Party before country also applies to some citizens, not just politicians.

Some of those citizens, can be found on subsim.

It is sad when some people can not deal with life in terms other than a political "us vs. them" concept.

Yup.

Your thoughts represent exactly why I became an Independent.

I'm sick of them both. If i had my way, If i were in any position to do it, id tear both of those parties apart, into confetti sized pieces and flush it down the toilet where they belong.


I am not a Republican nor a Democrat, but an American.

I never was much on hypenation, or hyphenated americans. There is no "whatever-american" Your either an American, or your not.


However, I must strongly object to your last statement. I think it was totally inappropriate...... I like horses. :)

There's only one horse i like, and it's Red, rest of em ain't s*** :O:

[tater]

I don't think freedoms are going to be limited, But i think we need to first take a look at the violence in this nation, and second our support systems for the mentally ill, like this kid. He shouldn't have slipped through the cracks. If somebody would have noticed and helped this kid, this would never have happened.

Helping the mentally ill is very difficult. You can lock them up, or not. If you favor removing their liberty, then the problem is soluble. If they are to not be institutionalized, it becomes pretty much impossible. People with serious, organic mental illness can only sometimes be treated effectively with meds (and nothing else works at all on issues like schizophrenia). Those that are effectively treated very often take themselves off the drugs as soon as they feel better (since the drugs have terrible side-effects), and without the drugs, it's a nonstop ride back to crazytown.

[Sailor Steve]

You really should start to read some of the posts in this thread. Like for example the one from Ducimus I just quoted:nope:
Unfortunately there will always be shallow, arrogant people who are incapable of actual discussion. They come from all sides of every argument, and the bottom line of everything they have to say can be summed up in one simple phrase:

"I'm right and you're stupid!"

[gimpy117]

Helping the mentally ill is very difficult. You can lock them up, or not. If you favor removing their liberty, then the problem is soluble. If they are to not be institutionalized, it becomes pretty much impossible. People with serious, organic mental illness can only sometimes be treated effectively with meds (and nothing else works at all on issues like schizophrenia). Those that are effectively treated very often take themselves off the drugs as soon as they feel better (since the drugs have terrible side-effects), and without the drugs, it's a nonstop ride back to crazytown.

yes, it is a problem...but it's evident he had some serious issues...even schizophrenia. In an odd way, I do not condone the horrendous things he did, but i feel bad that a young man, only 21, was driven by madness to do such unspeakable acts. His life is effectively over.

Yes, he may not have responded to meds for some types of mental illness (i could look it up... negative schizophrenia?) I think his case was obviously bad enough to warrant the side effects of the drugs. but there should have been some type of system to help this poor kid who needed help.

[Bubblehead1980]

:nope:

You can't turn it off, even for a day and in the face of tragedy, can you?


Suppose everyone should just take a break and allow the truth about what happened and why to be spun by the left? I would complain about the right if they were doing so also.No one's death should be exploited for political gain.

[Hottentot]

Help, I can't decide if this is a tragedy or not! Any news I have read haven't answered the most important question that has been bothering me ever since I heard about this:

Was the child in there, in fact, a liberal or a conservative? She was there, wasn't she, so she must have had an opinion. And no excuses about being a child, I don't want to hear them. I really need to know this, so I could decide if I should call this a tragedy or not!

On a more serious note, are there any news about the congresswoman's state? Last I heard there was still at least hope for her, which is much better than nothing, I guess.

[krashkart]

Hottentot, from what I heard on the national news this evening it sounds like she has a chance of pulling through. It's a wait-and-see, I guess. To your other thoughts: yeah, what a crock. Par for the course.


Suppose everyone should just take a break and allow the truth about what happened and why to be spun by the left? I would complain about the right if they were doing so also.No one's death should be exploited for political gain.

Bubblehead, I have been watching the news and I am not seeing a lefty attack. Get off your high horse and learn something.

[VipertheSniper]

First up I'd like to offer my condolonces to all that have lost a loved one in this tragedy.

So this scumbag is mentally ill it appears, how did he get a gun legally? Or is that of no importance, if you're ok in the brain department or not? Or did he just not raise any red flags when they checked (as in, it wasn't known he was mentally ill, at least not to authorities)?
Note: I assume he got his gun legally, as there wasn't anything in the news to suggest otherwise.

I don't want this to turn into a 5 page long debate on the 2nd Amandment, so please, could someone just tell how guns are dealt with in Arizona? All I heard was, that the laws are pretty liberal (in the original sense of the word) concerning guns.

[Hottentot]

Thanks, krashkart. I just checked the local newspaper and it stated her condition was "critical" but apparently she is still alive and aware of her surroundings. The doctors had asked her to raise two fingers and she had done that.

Oh, and I hope my invisible sarcasm tags in the first two paragraphs were visible enough.

[krashkart]

First up I'd like to offer my condolonces to all that have lost a loved one in this tragedy.

So this scumbag is mentally ill it appears, how did he get a gun legally? Or is that of no importance, if you're ok in the brain department or not? Or did he just not raise any red flags when they checked (as in, it wasn't known he was mentally ill, at least not to authorities)?
Note: I assume he got his gun legally, as there wasn't anything in the news to suggest otherwise.

I don't want this to turn into a 5 page long debate on the 2nd Amandment, so please, could someone just tell how guns are dealt with in Arizona? All I heard was, that the laws are pretty liberal (in the original sense of the word) concerning guns.

I'm not even sure that he was declared psychologically impaired (couldn't think of a better phrase -- see next). In my home state if a person is committed to an institution their name goes on the list of folks that cannot own firearms. Sounds like it was only recently that anyone had begun to worry about his stability. He slipped through before anyone could prevent this from happening.



Thanks, krashkart. I just checked the local newspaper and it stated her condition was "critical" but apparently she is still alive and aware of her surroundings. The doctors had asked her to raise two fingers and she had done that.

Oh, and I hope my invisible sarcasm tags in the first two paragraphs were visible enough.


Got my two fingers crossed in hope. :yep:

I saw your sarcasm tags right off. No worries, I added a couple of my own to them. :up:



@VipertheSniper - My home state is not Arizona, so not really sure how they handle gun control. :hmmm:

[VipertheSniper]

I'm not even sure that he was declared psychologically impaired (couldn't think of a better phrase -- see next). In my home state if a person is committed to an institution their name goes on the list of folks that cannot own firearms. Sounds like it was only recently that anyone had begun to worry about his stability. He slipped through before anyone could prevent this from happening.

@VipertheSniper - My home state is not Arizona, so not really sure how they handle gun control.



Well if it wasn't known to authorities that he was out of his mind so to say, it doesn't really matter what gun laws there are in Arizona. Even when there is also the requirement to have all your marbles together to own a gun, he would've got it.

[Aramike]

It seems as though Giffords has a chance...

I'm not a man of prayer, but if I were, I'd be begging God to pull her through this.

[Kongo Otto]

Helping the mentally ill is very difficult. You can lock them up, or not. If you favor removing their liberty, then the problem is soluble. If they are to not be institutionalized, it becomes pretty much impossible. People with serious, organic mental illness can only sometimes be treated effectively with meds (and nothing else works at all on issues like schizophrenia). Those that are effectively treated very often take themselves off the drugs as soon as they feel better (since the drugs have terrible side-effects), and without the drugs, it's a nonstop ride back to crazytown.

Well depends on what kind os schizophrenia someone has, for some subkind of schizophrenia there are meds for like Risperdal or Clozapine and Seroquel.
Its a combination between meds and treatment in a medical institution, here in Germay we have that in form of open Mental hospitals or for "locked up" medical Care centers specialized on schizophrenia.
It allways depends on what subkind of schizophrenia you have.

And to generalize the mentally ill and lock them up, in many case would be taking the sledgehammer to crack a nut.
99% of the mentally ill are no danger for the people around them.
Since two years i'm battling a gainst Huntingtons i take a great amount of meds on a daily base including antidepressants, neuroleptics and benzodiazepine.
So in German medical standards i'm mentally ill but i'm not a danger to society.
Nevertheless i had to hand over my firearms to the authorities because of my disease.
So i count your statement:"Helping the mentally ill is very difficult. You can lock them up, or not"
as a search for a simple solution or just beeing not very well informed about mental diseases.
Mental diseases are to complex for simple solutions.

That brings me to my next Point:
Americans and their love for simple solutions.
Simple solutions may work on a local scale, but they are not working in a nationwide or international scale.
The shooting, which is a real tragedy is not just a local problem its a nationwide.
In the last two years the common parlance used by R and D has aggravated in an amount, someone may think its a political arms race.
Media and political Propagandists from R and D have heatend up the political climate in an unjustifiable manner.
There is no political discussion anymore its just pointing fingers to each other and blaming the others seeding hate and prejudice.
Central Political issues have been changed against political stereotypes and insubstantial gossipry.
Carpetbaggers and political dabblers showed up with simple 18th century solutions but the problem is 21st centuries world is to complex and solutions from the past wont work.

In the past the USA where an inspiring example for democraty and a free society now you're just a daunting example of how political hatred and political prejudice can make a whole nation intolerant and filled with hate and resentiment.
Thats the picture the US have shown the rest of the world the last two years.

[tater]

There is a system to help, but as a citizen he has to avail himself of it. If he doesn't because he has a frank mental illness, then his liberty to decide about his own health needs to be taken away. The US used to do this, but complaints about institutionalizing people lead to that stopping. Removing this basic human right from people (their very freedom) is something Americans are loathe to do (sorry if that is a "simple" solution, but taking away someone's freedom is a last resort, not a first one).

I've seen the cycle personally, as my brother was schizophrenic. Being schizophrenic doesn't make you dangerous, but there is overlap between those that ARE dangerous and those that are not (even if the dangerous are a tiny minority). Requiring treatment means taking away their personal freedom. Requiring people to take meds pretty much requires incarceration (since unless you watch them swallow the meds, you have no way of knowing if they take them).

[Skybird]

There is no sense to generalise all mentally ill people.

There needs to be made a weighing of the individual'S freedom, and the right of the community to be protected. None of the two may automatically dominate over the other, no matter what.

Schizophrenia is not like schizophrenia. While not all schizophrenic people are dangerous, schizophrenia of certain types and grades can make you a dangerous person - to yourself, and to others as well.

Other psychiatric syndroms, manic people for example or anancastic ones, need assistance, sometimes even protection from themselves, in order to not let them ruining themselves, financially for example. This would not only effect themselves, maybe, but also their families, and children, if there are any. It also effects the community because it would need to pay for the damage or later needed social wellfare, possibly.

So, again: the rights and freedom of the - sane or insane - individual do not automatically rule over the interest of the community, nor shall the interests of the community automatically rule over the interests of the individual. A reasonable balance needs to be found. Total freedom there is for none of both, and nercessarily never can be (as long as you have no anarchy, than your relative level of freedom gets decided by your relative strength compared to that of others). Chance for abuse is there - regarding both possible parties. A legal framework is needed to mark the basic structure of the balancing act - a closer assessement of the individual case and its typical characteristics is inevitable as well.

Generalisations on psychiatric drugs, also makes little sense. They have gone a long way since the 50s, some are not good, others are extremely good, and it always depends on in what context they are being used. It is amazing that by swallowing a well-chosen medicine, you possibly still can get a very differentiated, psychologic/neurologic reaction that the patient under best circumstances does not even obviously notices, assuming he suffers by something that can be treated. There are good drugs. There are bad drugs. And often, the good ones cost more money as long as their patents are still valid.

King Otto,
sorry to hear that. Don't lose your courage. I wish you a good delay! Be careful with those Benzos.

[Kongo Otto]

There is a system to help, but as a citizen he has to avail himself of it. If he doesn't because he has a frank mental illness, then his liberty to decide about his own health needs to be taken away. The US used to do this, but complaints about institutionalizing people lead to that stopping. Removing this basic human right from people (their very freedom) is something Americans are loathe to do (sorry if that is a "simple" solution, but taking away someone's freedom is a last resort, not a first one).

I've seen the cycle personally, as my brother was schizophrenic. Being schizophrenic doesn't make you dangerous, but there is overlap between those that ARE dangerous and those that are not (even if the dangerous are a tiny minority). Requiring treatment means taking away their personal freedom. Requiring people to take meds pretty much requires incarceration (since unless you watch them swallow the meds, you have no way of knowing if they take them).

First i want to say that my post wasnt ment as a offense.

Well and if you didnt want to take away the freedom of an mentally ill person, there still would be the possibility for day care centers like we have it in Germany, they work with very good results.
Here in germany you can be put in medical facilities against your will, but this has to be ordered by a judge. Its not so easy either.
But if a mentally ill one is a danger for public safety, it was and will be done.

This is my personal point of view also its not ment as an offense:
The public safety in my eyes is also a basic freedom and has always to be put in a higher level than the freedom of a human beeing which maybe isn't anymore capable to decide for himself.
And if a ill person becomes a danger to public safety, yes his personal freedom should be taken, maybe for a limited amount of time or for ever.
But for such a decission there should be a very high juridically and medical standard.


As you said "my brother was" i hope he is well.

[Sailor Steve]

I would complain about the right if they were doing so also.
And yet you never do. Talk is cheap.

No one's death should be exploited for political gain.
And yet here you are doing exactly that. Political exploitation for the right is all you ever do.

[mookiemookie]

First i want to say that my post wasnt ment as a offense.

Well and if you didnt want to take away the freedom of an mentally ill person, there still would be the possibility for day care centers like we have it in Germany, they work with very good results.
Here in germany you can be put in medical facilities against your will, but this has to be ordered by a judge. Its not so easy either.
But if a mentally ill one is a danger for public safety, it was and will be done.

This is my personal point of view also its not ment as an offense:
The public safety in my eyes is also a basic freedom and has always to be put in a higher level than the freedom of a human beeing which maybe isn't anymore capable to decide for himself.
And if a ill person becomes a danger to public safety, yes his personal freedom should be taken, maybe for a limited amount of time or for ever.
But for such a decission there should be a very high juridically and medical standard.


As you said "my brother was" i hope he is well.

Here's a story in the LA Times that sheds some light on these issues - apparently it's very hard judging who is going to "snap" and do something like this. Apparently budget issues have strained the system as well - funding cuts. :nope:

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-mental-health-20110111,0,2679941.story

[tater]

There are day centers, and assisted living as well here in the US. My brother was in a "group home" with other patients, and a care giver living as housemates. Still, they can easily forget or decide not to take their meds. This is a common occurrence.

My point is that even with a patient like this guy (clearly the very rare dangerous variety) getting mental health care, he is still an adult, citizen (unless institutionalized against his will), and would be at risk.

BTW, where is the guy's family? My brother got the care he got because my family was proactive and took a role in his care. His family must have known there was something seriously wrong with him. They have a responsibility, too. Again, the usual suspects will complain about budget cuts, etc, but the reality is that for care to work when it is not mandatory (which would require a court-order in the US), the patient has to decide to seek care. The trouble with mental illness is that the worst off patients are the least likely to seek care. Those with more minor disease are going to be the ones well enough to recognize that they actually need care. It's a catch-22 (literally).

[gimpy117]

yeah...where was his family?

I can understand why his friends bailed on him...but they should have mentioned his behavior to somebody.

[STEED]

A dreadful act.

[tater]

BTW, regarding the terrible politicization of this attack, the sheriff and the press are absolutely complicit in this, as are some politicians. Immediately calling for "toning down rhetoric" implies that rhetoric had anything to do with this in the first place—and there is zero data that this is true. It goes to statements by others here that the US somehow is in a particularly polarized state, which any even casual student of American political history would know is utter rubbish.

[August]

BTW, regarding the terrible politicization of this attack, the sheriff and the press are absolutely complicit in this, as are some politicians. Immediately calling for "toning down rhetoric" implies that rhetoric had anything to do with this in the first place—and there is zero data that this is true. It goes to statements by others here that the US somehow is in a particularly polarized state, which any even casual student of American political history would know is utter rubbish.

A very good point Tater.

[Kongo Otto]

It goes to statements by others here that the US somehow is in a particularly polarized state, which any even casual student of American political history would know is utter rubbish.

Hmm ok then please explain some of this pictures.

http://www.abload.de/img/912_teaparty_dc_we_ca4mwz.jpeg

http://www.abload.de/img/killliberalskmo6.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/saveasealclubaliberaltmv4.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/2009-06-12-liberalhunt8ma2.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/liberalvmag.jpg

[tater]

So what? If you have a point with those pictures, compare them to polarization during every other US Administration. Have you read editorials written during the Adams Administration? What do you know about open rebellions like the Whiskey Rebellion during the Washington Administration? What about the years leading to the US Civil War?

US politics is no more polarized than ever.

[Kongo Otto]

So what? If you have a point with those pictures, compare them to polarization during every other US Administration. Have you read editorials written during the Adams Administration? What do you know about open rebellions like the Whiskey Rebellion during the Washington Administration? What about the years leading to the US Civil War?

US politics is no more polarized than ever.

What i try to say is that polarization should not be an component of any kind of discussion including political themes. Polarization just make people blind for rational argumentation.
On both sides!!

[mookiemookie]

What i try to say is that polarization should not be an component of any kind of discussion including political themes. Polarization just make people blind for rational argumentation.
On both sides!!

American politics is like a sport for some people. They cheer on their team and boo the other guys. It's just that way.

[tater]

What i try to say is that polarization should not be an component of any kind of discussion including political themes. Polarization just make people blind for rational argumentation.
On both sides!!

All politics is polarized unless there is basically no difference between them. Perhaps you are used to in effect single-party rule. The US system has been "polarized" since President Washington. Weapons are in fact much harder to come by now, too. Until the mid-20th century virtually no weapon was forbidden for private ownership, so any loon could choose to be as well armed as the military.

If you want to show that something is worse NOW, then demonstrate that it is so vs the rest of US electoral history (good luck with that).

This was instantly politicized, and yes, more by the left than the right (presumably that sheriff is a D as he's blamed talk radio now, too, with zero evidence). I have seen some news, and blaming rhetoric is on every network as a possibility—and it should not even be out there for discussion as they have ZERO facts at this point. Any story even talking about this WRT political discourse is nothing but speculation—not news. Facts, facts, facts.

When Ft Hood happened, the immediate call (from the press, and the White House) was to not jump to conclusions even though the shooter was a Muslim who was in contact with radicals, shouted allah akbar while murdering, etc. The immediate call in the wake of THIS shooting, OTOH, is to "tone down political speech" when there is zero evidence that such speech had anything to do with this. It is quite possible the guy is on the other side, too. Or more likely is so totally nuts he doesn't fit ANY side.

BTW, note that in the case of Hasan and Ft Hood, that AQ has been known to intentionally recruit people who are already mentally ill, or who have some mental deficit since they are easier to control. That is a case of a larger, political organization seeking out the mentally ill to do their violent bidding. NO political movement in the US is doing this. None at all. So this is not political, it's a mental health thing. If a shooter killed because he heard god telling him to, would that make all religion responsible? If a nut said that he heard voices—and the voice was Obama—telling him to, would Obama be responsible? No, it'd just be a sadly insane guy as this very likely is.

Note that this also means that he's just as crazy if he's in fact a leftist, and it's not more connected to crazy left nuts like moveon, kos, huffpo, etc than it would be to the Tea Party.

He's CRAZY. That's it.

[mookiemookie]

All politics is polarized unless there is basically no difference between them. Perhaps you are used to in effect single-party rule. The US system has been "polarized" since President Washington. Weapons are in fact much harder to come by now, too. Until the mid-20th century virtually no weapon was forbidden for private ownership, so any loon could choose to be as well armed as the military.

If you want to show that something is worse NOW, then demonstrate that it is so vs the rest of US electoral history (good luck with that).

Maybe we can bring back duels for politicians. :ping:

[Skybird]

BTW, regarding the terrible politicization of this attack, the sheriff and the press are absolutely complicit in this, as are some politicians. Immediately calling for "toning down rhetoric" implies that rhetoric had anything to do with this in the first place—and there is zero data that this is true. It goes to statements by others here that the US somehow is in a particularly polarized state, which any even casual student of American political history would know is utter rubbish.

You only need to lean far enough towards the one pole, than the rest of the world looks as if representing the other. ;)

[tater]

Maybe we can bring back duels for politicians. :ping:

That's impossible, the US is more polarized than ever, and there are no duels NOW! ;)

[The Third Man]

As the story which is the life of Jared Loughner becomes more clear it is evident that politics is less likely the reason for his actions. What his motives were are unclear but politics don't seem to be the proximate cause.

The US political discourse has always been polarizing.

.......[a] violent episode in congressional history took place in this chamber on May 22, 1856. The Senate was not in session when South Carolina Representative Preston S. Brooks entered the chamber to avenge the insults that Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner ........

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Southern_Chivalry.jpg

[Skybird]

Well, what now, tater, you need to choose which one it should be:


It goes to statements by others here that the US somehow is in a particularly polarized state, which any even casual student of American political history would know is utter rubbish.

or rather this:


That's impossible, the US is more polarized than ever, and there are no duels NOW!


:06:

Well: words do matter (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,738676,00.html)for sure.


Regardless of the motives of the assassin, the debate is urgently needed. The political radicalization in the US has reached a point that is unworthy of a democratic state. More than any others, the members of the Tea Party movement made rhetoric of war into normal discourse ..."

"It speaks volumes that Tea Party members and former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin removed crude imagery from their websites in a hurry on Saturday ..."
----------
Giffords' name will be written in blood in the history of the United States. It was the first such incident since the attack on President Reagan almost 30 years ago. This murderous attack came from an atmosphere of discord and self-doubt, because America is experiencing the limits of its power on a daily basis, whether it be on distant fronts or with dissatisfaction at home. It has never been like this. There always was the motto: "Yes, we can." Today, widespread pessimism prevails, because of the financial crisis, and because of Iraq and Afghanistan, all lost battles ..."

"Sarah Palin put on her website Giffords' district with a target on it. What was meant metaphorically has become a bloody reality ... After the attack on Gabrielle Giffords, Americans are looking in a mirror that is blurred by hate and fear. That is not America. They need to ask themselves, and they are not alone, how to go about self-reconciliation.
-----------
America is appalled, and for the first time has stepped back. The attack in Tucson aimed a spotlight on how pure hatred has set the tone in the US. This happened, incidentally, before the rise of the Tea Party movement. The moment the first elected black president moved into the White House, the right began comparing him to Hitler, and calling him a socialist and the anti-Christ ..."
-------------
First and foremost, the spokespeople of the right, such as Sarah Palin, have poisoned the atmosphere with aggressive verbiage. They routinely portray their political opponents as domestic enemies. They compare the resistance against the policies of a democratically elected president to the colonists' fight for independence from the British. They predict the demise of the nation, if the Democrats are not defeated."
"But above all, they use frivolous images of armed violence: After political setbacks they speak first of their need to 'reload.' They have even marked districts of their political opponents with crosshair targets on maps on their websites."
"America has been repeatedly afflicted with political violence: the assassinations of the Kennedy brothers and Martin Luther King, Jr. in the 1960s, and the gruesome attacks on Oklahoma City and in Atlanta during the Olympic games in the 1990s. After the tragedy in Tucson, the writing is on the wall again. One should hope that the leaders of the political right in the US recognize the deadly power words can really have. The time has come for them to stop. Otherwise, America might sink into a spiral of violence."


What is said in the Bible!? :) If you sow wind, you will reap storm.

So better use less windy words and manners.

Rethorics never are a replacement for aregument. Most of the time they indeed cover the lack of argument, they have an inherent deceptive nature. That is what makes them a cheating trick, appealing not to the intellect but to lower archaic instincts and just sentiments.

[Takeda Shingen]

Maybe we can bring back duels for politicians. :ping:

It wouldn't be without constitutional precedent. :O:

[The Third Man]

It wouldn't be without constitutional precedent. :O:

Constitutional? Perhaps you mean historical.

BTW, combat by agreement is illegal in most, if not all states.

[Takeda Shingen]

Constitutional? Perhaps you mean historical.

Note: :O:

The observational is sometimes more important than the subjective.

[Growler]

Did someone say polarized?

"We need to push back harder with the simple truth. The shooter was a liberal lunatic. Emphasis on both words..."

Source. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/tea-party-group-blames-leftist-for-giffords-shooting/69153)