Arizona Congresswoman Shot in the Head at Public Event

[tater]

I was being facetious, skybird. That was a JOKE. If US political discourse WAS more polarized, then we WOULD have duels now. We DID have duels in the past, so clearly it was at least as polarized AND more violent.

Even bringing up political rhetoric in a news story related to this shooting is clear bias since there are NO FACTS to support that as even a theory. Bringing it up is making it something to consider, when there is nothing there. It's an attempt, in fact, to create political motives where no specifics are known to exist.

The removal of images is not because there is ANY cause and effect, but because the media has, and will continue to paint this as some sort of viable theory in the face of zero evidence. What has the perp said as far as his motive? Prove a link, or STFU (that's a message to the media). I saw his videos, there is nothing there.

It's the act of a nut until proved otherwise.

[CaptainHaplo]

First and foremost, the spokespeople of the right, such as Sarah Palin, have poisoned the atmosphere with aggressive verbiage.They routinely portray their political opponents as domestic enemies.

Funny - when has the right used the word "enemies"? The left has:

Obama responded: "If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, 'We're gonna punish our enemies and we're gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,' if they don't see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it's gonna be harder."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101101/ap_on_el_ge/us_obama_enemies

But of course - its a truism that usually when one side accuses the other of something - they are in fact the ones that are doing it. The right says stand on the constitution - the left says anyone who doesn't do what we want is an enemy - and its the right that is evil and hatemongering. The left says anyone who disagrees is racist, a homophobe, a bigot, a slaver, while the right says sit down and lets talk about merits of the arguement.....

Yea - its all the right's fault.......

[tater]

Did someone say polarized?



Source. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/tea-party-group-blames-leftist-for-giffords-shooting/69153)

They have no choice, the sheriff is blaming the right and Rush Limbaugh. He's the authority figure giving press conferences knowing it will be reported. The congress is talking about curtailing speech—suggesting that political speech was connected, when there is no such evidence.

They all need to STFU until there are some FACTS.

Since they are being heard, the side being attacked as responsible (with zero evidence they are) has every right to respond.

It would be better if those in power, and those reporting instead waited for, you know, DATA.

[DarkFish]

We DID have duels in the past, so clearly it was at least as polarized AND more violent.Was it more violent because politics were more polarized, or because life itself was more violent?

[Takeda Shingen]

But of course - its a truism that usually when one side accuses the other of something - they are in fact the ones that are doing it. The right says stand on the constitution - the left says anyone who doesn't do what we want is an enemy

In fairness, the right categorizes those that do not agree as un-American and dangerous as well. You are correct about the intentions of the left, but depicting the right as people that placidly stand on truth and justice is inaccurate; they are warped as well, but in the opposite direction.

[The Third Man]

Just heard that there is a 100% that Congresswoman Giffords will survive. What the quality of that will be is yet to be known.

I'll leave it to others to make the political connection.

[goldorak]

American politics is like a sport for some people. They cheer on their team and boo the other guys. It's just that way.


Give the politicians weapons and throw them in the arena.
There, no need for political discourse or compromise. Only one wins all. :woot:

[krashkart]

Well if it wasn't known to authorities that he was out of his mind so to say, it doesn't really matter what gun laws there are in Arizona. Even when there is also the requirement to have all your marbles together to own a gun, he would've got it.

Yeah, you're right. Doesn't really matter what gun laws there are anywhere. Even if he had already been blacklisted he could have found other ways to acquire the weapon and ammunition. The laws restrict what can be sold (and to whom) at legitimate gun dealers, but cannot hold an edge on the black market. They cannot prevent weapons being stolen from legal gun owners, either.

Such a quandary. :hmm2:



Give the politicians weapons and throw them in the arena.
There, no need for political discourse or compromise. Only one wins all. :woot:


I wonder if would be anything like the Highlander movies? :D

[Ducimus]

So what? If you have a point with those pictures, compare them to polarization during every other US Administration. Have you read editorials written during the Adams Administration? What do you know about open rebellions like the Whiskey Rebellion during the Washington Administration? What about the years leading to the US Civil War?

US politics is no more polarized than ever.


By the history book, you have a point. However, I don't think i've ever seen it more polarized in my life time as it has been these last couple of years. Have you?

[CaptainHaplo]

In fairness, the right categorizes those that do not agree as un-American and dangerous as well. You are correct about the intentions of the left, but depicting the right as people that placidly stand on truth and justice is inaccurate; they are warped as well, but in the opposite direction.

Actually my friend - I think its more accurate to say that SOME on both sides use language that can inflame - and its unfortunate. However, at least in this case, the hatemongering and politicizing is coming from one side.

[mookiemookie]

However, at least in this case, the hatemongering and politicizing is coming from one side.

Bull.

From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg
*** The right pushes back: Well, that didn’t take long. After we wrote yesterday that the horrific shootings in Arizona offered the possibility of ushering in a more civil and responsible tone in American politics, activists and commentators on both sides refused to back down. In fact, Monday was all about trying to define the other side as out of their minds. Sad. On the right, Rush Limbaugh accused Democrats of politicizing the tragedy. “The desperate hope that the losers in November of 2010 had was that they could revitalize their political fortunes because of this unfortunate shooting of a congresswoman in Arizona,” Limbaugh said, per Roll Call. “But the left is depraved, empty and without any political substance whatsoever.” Glenn Beck added, “They are using every opportunity to convince you that Sarah Palin is dangerous.” The Tea Party Express, meanwhile, sent a fundraising solicitation entitled, “Tea Party won’t be silenced after shooting.” And the Media Research Center’s Brent Bozell argued that the media was trying to “criminalize conservatism.”

*** So does the left: On the left, the New York Times’ Bob Herbert today writes, “The vitriol that has become an integral part of our political rhetoric, most egregiously from the right, is just one of the myriad contributing factors in a society saturated in blood.” And Paul Krugman asked yesterday, “So will the Arizona massacre make our discourse less toxic? It’s really up to G.O.P. leaders. Will they accept the reality of what’s happening to America, and take a stand against eliminationist rhetoric? Or will they try to dismiss the massacre as the mere act of a deranged individual, and go on as before?”

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/11/5813380-first-thoughts-the-right-pushes-back

[The Third Man]

By the history book, you have a point. However, I don't think i've ever seen it more polarized in my life time as it has been these last couple of years. Have you?

I give you Chicago, Democratic National Covention, 1968.

[Takeda Shingen]

Actually my friend - I think its more accurate to say that SOME on both sides use language that can inflame - and its unfortunate. However, at least in this case, the hatemongering and politicizing is coming from one side.

You are right. I should have said 'some', and by failing to do so I impugned all. In regards to vitriol over the present tragedy, I haven't seen any from either side. I had Glenn Beck on today when I was shopping for groceries (and by 'groceries', I mean bourbon, as I am likely to get snowed in tomorrow and it keeps me warm when I shovel) and he wasn't vitriolic or inappropriate at all. I don't watch FOX or MSNBC, so I haven't seen any manipulation.

[The Third Man]

You are right. I should have said 'some', and by failing to do so I impugned all. In regards to vitriol over the present tragedy, I haven't seen any from either side. I had Glenn Beck on today when I was shopping for groceries (and by 'groceries', I mean bourbon, as I am likely to get snowed in tomorrow and it keeps me warm when I shovel) and he wasn't vitriolic or inappropriate at all. I don't watch FOX or MSNBC, so I haven't seen any manipulation.

If you watched ABC, CBS or NBC, network news you saw manipulation. But you don't know what you don't know.

[mookiemookie]

The Westboro Church idiots are planning to be at the funeral of the little girl. Arizona is making an attempt to keep them some distance away:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1

[The Third Man]

The Westboro Church idiots are planning to be at the funeral of the little girl. Arizona is making an attempt to keep them some distance away:


Will be hard to keep them out now that SCOTUS has ruled in their favor reguarding military funerals. A sad truth.

[Takeda Shingen]

If you watched ABC, CBS or NBC, network news you saw manipulation. But you don't know what you don't know.

I didn't see any manipulation there. But, I don't have a stake in either side.

[The Third Man]

I didn't see any manipulation there. But, I don't have a stake in either side.

You didn't see the county sherrif state his theory/opinions regarding how this incident was sparked? It was all over the network news.

[Takeda Shingen]

You didn't see the county sherrif state his theory/opinions regarding how this incident was sparked? It was all over the network news.

Oh, I thought you meant that the media was pointing the blame at Team R. He's nobody; I wouldn't worry about his thoughts.

[Bubblehead1980]

Hottentot, from what I heard on the national news this evening it sounds like she has a chance of pulling through. It's a wait-and-see, I guess. To your other thoughts: yeah, what a crock. Par for the course.




Bubblehead, I have been watching the news and I am not seeing a lefty attack. Get off your high horse and learn something.


Really? I've heard the talking heads at MSNBC and CNN find ways to blame this on "hate speech" aka the opinions of those who disagree with Obama and the Progressives, every chance they have.

Heard a couple Congressmen talk about "addressing" the "hate speech" and "vitriol" I'm not on a high horse, just know how the lefties are and how they will exploit this as they have many other tragedies to further their agenda.Their agenda usually contradicts the US Constitution, therefore I am worried and everyone else should be.

[Takeda Shingen]

Really? I've heard the talking heads at MSNBC and CNN find ways to blame this on "hate speech" aka the opinions of those who disagree with Obama and the Progressives, every chance they have.

Really? They said that speech against Democrats and Obama should be banned? That's outrageous. We need to do something.

[krashkart]

The Westboro Church idiots are planning to be at the funeral of the little girl. Arizona is making an attempt to keep them some distance away:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1

With any luck their van will break down long before they make it to town. :-?

[The Third Man]

Did anyone hear the former Clinton advisor state where it was important for Obama to have an OKC incident to bring the folks back to him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5_33WXSRs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5_33WXSRs)

This was aired in November on MSNBC.


BTW with all the attention devoted to Congresswoman Giffords do you realize a Federal judge was assasinated on Saturday.

By law the accused assasin faces the death penalty.

[DarkFish]

The Westboro Church idiots are planning to be at the funeral of the little girl.Well it does explain why he did it. Apparently he was just a poor soul used by god to shoot a 9 year old girl to show the US that being gay is wrong.

Or something:hmmm:


Dispicable these Westboro fools:nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

Did anyone hear the former Clinton advisor state where it was important for Obama to have an OKC incident to bring the folks back to him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5_33WXSRs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5_33WXSRs)

This was aired in November on MSNBC.

Wow. And did you see the target signs over the Congresswoman's district? What if that advisor and Sarah Palin are working together to eliminate people. My god.....

[The Third Man]

Wow. And did you see the target signs over the Congresswoman's district? What if that advisor and Sarah Palin are working together to eliminate people. My god.....

You mean unicode 2316?

[Takeda Shingen]

You mean unicode 2316?

Yes.....that's it. Google is in on it too. We're through the looking glass here, people.

[The Third Man]

Yes.....that's it. Google is in on it too. We're through the looking glass here, people.

Now I'm 'people'. Calling me names now?

[Takeda Shingen]

Now I'm 'people'.

Wait, you're more than one person? Holy crap, the conspiracy grows.

[The Third Man]

Wait, you're more than one person? Holy crap, the conspiracy grows.

Godless people think there is something 'wHoly'? It is a conspiracy!

[Takeda Shingen]

Godless people think there is something 'Holy'? It is a conspiracy!

Is one of you a priest too? Is Opus Dei is involved as well? This is deep.....very deep.

[The Third Man]

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/opus_dei_silas.jpg

[VipertheSniper]

Is this really necessary in THIS thread? Not that it hasn't been derailed before, but seriously?

[Takeda Shingen]

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/opus_dei_silas.jpg

It's all coming together. The picture clears.

[Takeda Shingen]

Is this really necessary in THIS thread? Not that it hasn't been derailed before, but seriously?

Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Personally, I am tired of this wild speculation, so I am calling people on it. I apologize if I offended you in any way; it was not my intent.

[VipertheSniper]

Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Personally, I am tired of this wild speculation, so I am calling people on it. I apologize if I offended you in any way; it was not my intent.

No need to apologize. I was just worried this could take a turn for the worse.

[tater]

Was it more violent because politics were more polarized, or because life itself was more violent?

I've read what was written in the papers during various old elections. I'd say it was at least as polarized as right now. Times were also more violent. Basically, no matter how you slice it things are better now than the past.

BTW, an ex congressman, Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., just said this in the NYT:
We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.

Pretty reasonable.

Course this is what the same guy said last October:
That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks.

[CaptainHaplo]

Actually - I'm ordained if that helps.......

On the topic of the westboro idiots - there are mass plans to blockade them off - and a group of hells angels has be "invited" by a local riding club to assist..

I wonder if this is gonna be one of those:
Gee - look - the cops can't see whats going on - oh they fell down and got all bloody - look at them running back to their vehicle..... what happened to protesting????

Not that I condone that kind of thing......

[tater]

Hmmm, if I start talking about what to do to those Hillsboro idiots, it won't be very civil at all...

[Takeda Shingen]

Actually - I'm ordained if that helps.......

On the topic of the westboro idiots - there are mass plans to blockade them off - and a group of hells angels has be "invited" by a local riding club to assist..

I wonder if this is gonna be one of those:
Gee - look - the cops can't see whats going on - oh they fell down and got all bloody - look at them running back to their vehicle..... what happened to protesting????

Not that I condone that kind of thing......

And there have been a lot of groups that have been pretty effective at minimizing the impact that Westboro has on the funerals. It is a shame that it comes down to that, and that people would try to use someone's grief in such a horrible manner.

[mookiemookie]

They've made a living shocking people. They're just publicity whores.

The video of them being attacked was pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGKx2pTBQc

[Takeda Shingen]

Some good news: Congresswoman Giffords is breathing on her own now:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70A56E20110111

EDIT: Or that she is able to breathe on her own. They are still taking precautions against pneumonia.

[Armistead]

They vowed to picket Elisabeth Edwards Funeral here in NC, don't recall if they ever showed up, but I think not.....

[Skybird]

Superb and very differentiated comment, unfortunately only in German.

Link (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article12091535/Amerika-ist-im-Innern-in-schlechter-Verfassung.html)

[Bubblehead1980]

Really? They said that speech against Democrats and Obama should be banned? That's outrageous. We need to do something.

:down:

[Takeda Shingen]

:down:

I was simply repeating your hysterics. And yes, I continue to find them distasteful.

[Tribesman]

Blood libel?????
OK you could let Palins camp get away with nonsense about them really depicting surveyors instruments as that was so laughable, but to now claim they are the victims and to use such phrases really sinks Palin to new lows.

[Radtgaeb]

No surprise there, Skybird.

Almost all of us, although many are armed, have no intent to inflict such carnage.

I for one am armed for defensive purposes only, not against the goverment but against the criminal elements we have here. My wife and family all know how to handle firearms myself ever since I was age 10.

We all target shoot for enjoyment, some of us hunt, and all are armed just in case you have a home invasion.

Being from the South, this act we speak of, trying to kill an unarmed woman who meant you no harm is unspeakable to us.

In the old days in these parts he would have been hanged and remembered as a coward for his deeds.

Today he will probably never be executed but kept locked up why others ponder his actions and wonder why.

:sign_yeah:

[Takeda Shingen]

Blood libel?????
OK you could let Palins camp get away with nonsense about them really depicting surveyors instruments as that was so laughable, but to now claim they are the victims and to use such phrases really sinks Palin to new lows.

I will give you that 'blood libel' was yet another poor selection of words by Sarah Palin, but aside from that, she does have a very good point. People jumped all over her for the picture on her website. People can call it 'unicode 2316' if that makes them feel more justified in their views, but the bottom line is that it was designed to look like a target reticule. However, the so-called Tea Party's message was also clear; they were unhappy with the voting records of certain politicians and were targeting their districts in attempts to get out the vote. There was no advocacy of assasination, and attemps to imply that there was are both diststasteful and insensitive.

Yes, it is true that Giffords herself was on television calling that image as advocacy of assasination. She was playing the political game, just like that all do; over react and make noise to demonize the opposition. There is no justification for what happened to her, but to imply that Palin is responsible is just as disgusting as other attempts to skew this tragedy for political gain.

[Tchocky]

Anyone catch Monday's Daily Show? I thought Jon hit the nail on the head in a fairly serious way.

[Growler]

There is no justification for what happened to her, but to imply that Palin is responsible is just as disgusting as other attempts to skew this tragedy for political gain.

This. Anything that ANY politician does publicly WILL be interpreted by both sides in ways favorable to their own position and, even better, detrimental to the opposition's.

Where I fault Palin's PAC is in creating such an image that was THAT open to abuse by the other side. Her handlers should have known better.

[Fish]

Her handlers should have known better.
Does this mean, you think, she hasn't a mind of here self?:DL

[mookiemookie]

Does this mean, you think, she hasn't a mind of here self?:DL

None of them do. When you elect a politician, you're electing a brand that comes with a supporting cast of hundreds. A politician is a product these days. It takes many people to build marketing campaigns around products. It doesn't stop after the election either - you have ongoing brand management.

[AVGWarhawk]

None of them do. When you elect a politician, you're electing a brand that comes with a supporting cast of hundreds. A politician is a product these days. It takes many people to build marketing campaigns around products. It doesn't stop after the election either - you have ongoing brand management.


I have to agree here. :yep:

[Growler]

Does this mean, you think, she hasn't a mind of here self?:DL

Not at all; once any person in the US becomes a "brand" it's all about "brand marketing" afterwards. Brand marketing means that you have people who evaluate everything you say, think, do, eat, etc. for possible "unforeseen negative engagement by opposition analysts" to use against your brand.

[geetrue]

It's a miracle she's still alive ... that big warm hearted friend of hers put his hands on her head to stop the bleeding could be a clue, but surely shot in the head at close range and living this long with a 101% chance of survival given by her doctor points to many prayers have been answered, not that God wouldn't have cared anyway, but still they were prayed in faith.

If the devil is a chess player (God is not a chess player due to the limited moves) then the timing of this event will come to light when they try to repeal the Democratic health care plan. Hard to see how they can get any support in the Senate from the democrats and of course if it did pass President Obama would presumably reject any plan to his plan.

Not I says me, no not I, I will not blame the health care bill for this act, but this will play out in what they say next week in Congress.

The shooter didn't even watch the news according to one friend.

He was simply pissed off at the answer she gave him in person at a town hall meeting last year.

This was premeditated rage at a woman he blamed for all of his problems.

[Sailor Steve]

People keep pointing fingers still. There is only one person who can be held responsible for this, and they're not even sure he's responsible.

[Bubblehead1980]

A friend told me about this today, also heard it on radio and now saw it online for myself.Make sure you watch the video at 2:31.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/az-shooters-best-friend-he-didnt-listen-to-political-radio/


Guess left has to find someone else to blame the shootings on other than talk radio or Fox News because he didn't listen to them.:yeah:

[DarkFish]

It's a miracle she's still alive ... that big warm hearted friend of hers put his hands on her head to stop the bleeding could be a clue, but surely shot in the head at close range and living this long with a 101% chance of survival given by her doctor points to many prayers have been answered, not that God wouldn't have cared anyway, but still they were prayed in faith.But saying that the Christian god is the reason why she is still alive? If I were god I'd certainly have saved the 9 year old girl instead.
I rather say she survived because of a quick and professional response by bystanders, good medical service and a huge portion of luck:up:

[Bubblehead1980]

I was simply repeating your hysterics. And yes, I continue to find them distasteful.


I was aware of your sarcasm.How can you write that pointing out the fact that the left is exploting this tragedy to advance their agenda constitutes hysterics? Perhaps just because you disagree with me.The left has a pattern of behavior when it comes to exploiting tragedies to advance their agenda and settle scores if possible.Clinton and the left after OKC is a great example.I was young and do not remember but from what I can tell and have read, they tried to peg it on Rush Limbaugh etc

I have mentioned several times that the Right would prob exploit this had the situation been reversed and I also pointed out that it is wrong to exploit this no matter who is on what side.

[Bubblehead1980]

But saying that the Christian god is the reason why she is still alive? If I were god I'd certainly have saved the 9 year old girl instead.
I rather say she survived because of a quick and professional response by bystanders, good medical service and a huge portion of luck:up:


yea, people tend to turn to a "higher" power instead of believing in chance etc. at times like these, guess if that makes them happy.:06:

[Platapus]

It's a miracle she's still alive ... that big warm hearted friend of hers put his hands on her head to stop the bleeding could be a clue, but surely shot in the head at close range and living this long with a 101% chance of survival given by her doctor points to many prayers have been answered, not that God wouldn't have cared anyway, but still they were prayed in faith.

So why didn't your god save all the victims then? Is a politician more worthy of saving than a 9 year old girl?

How does your god choose, and for that matter why would your god choose?

[Takeda Shingen]

I was aware of your sarcasm.How can you write that pointing out the fact that the left is exploting this tragedy to advance their agenda constitutes hysterics? Perhaps just because you disagree with me.The left has a pattern of behavior when it comes to exploiting tragedies to advance their agenda and settle scores if possible.Clinton and the left after OKC is a great example.I was young and do not remember but from what I can tell and have read, they tried to peg it on Rush Limbaugh etc

I have mentioned several times that the Right would prob exploit this had the situation been reversed and I also pointed out that it is wrong to exploit this no matter who is on what side.

I can say that it constitutes hysterics due to the flexible standards that you hold. Your second sentence begins yet another anti-left tirade in which you yourself attempt to utilize this event to place your team in a better light. You conclude with a claim of impartiality that you have never demonstrated. So, yes, I fundamentally disagree with your assertions.

[geetrue]

So why didn't your god save all the victims then? Is a politician more worthy of saving than a 9 year old girl?

How does your god choose, and for that matter why would your god choose?

I don't understand how God decides who is healed or who dies or who lives.

The little girl was shot also at point blank range, another man shielded his wife from the shooter and died. He was a preacher man.

Gods ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts (old testament)

I was a victim of a vicious attack back in 1983, hit in the head with a big pipe I am told, but I didn't see it coming.

Woke up on the operating table being operated on with a green cloth over my face (hit me in the side of the head by my ear) with a very bright light up above the operating table.

The doctor said, "You've lost a lot of blood son"

I said thats nice and drifted off to sleep, waking up the next day in a hospital room that I couldn't afford.

I walked out two days later and didn't feel like smoking cigarettes anymore. Walked home seven miles away and saw my car all banged up with the windshield gone.

I know something happened that day and it is by faith that I believe in an intelligent designer that saved me for another day.

The reason is up to him ... sure glad he did.

If you want to argue ... there are other threads to proclaim faith or no faith.

Prayer is seeking Gods will ... not telling him what to do.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes. A common misconception that people have about Christianity is that God is some sort of omnipotent maitre 'd. In strictly glib terms, Christianity regards God as more of a baseball umpire; He decides who is out and who is safe. You can also plead your case, and sometimes He'll break it your way and sometimes not, if He has other intentions.

[mookiemookie]

I was aware of your sarcasm.How can you write that pointing out the fact that the left is exploting this tragedy to advance their agenda constitutes hysterics? Perhaps just because you disagree with me.The left has a pattern of behavior when it comes to exploiting tragedies to advance their agenda and settle scores if possible.Clinton and the left after OKC is a great example.I was young and do not remember but from what I can tell and have read, they tried to peg it on Rush Limbaugh etc

I have mentioned several times that the Right would prob exploit this had the situation been reversed and I also pointed out that it is wrong to exploit this no matter who is on what side.

Just stop. Seriously. You have absolutely nothing to add to any of this. :damn:

[gimpy117]

First up I'd like to offer my condolonces to all that have lost a loved one in this tragedy.

So this scumbag is mentally ill it appears, how did he get a gun legally? he did not have a criminal history. same Virginia tech shooter. If you have not been committed to a metal facility or went voluntarily you can still buy a gun

[Feuer Frei!]

Good news:

"Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, shot in Arizona, opens eyes for first time"

"They were in the Arizona Democrat's hospital room when they say she opened her eyes, shortly after she was visited by President Barack Obama."

Source (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-arizona-opens-eyes-for-first-time/story-e6frf7lf-1225987291241)

[Hottentot]

Obama did it :DL. I don't know why, but that quote just made me smile, even if it's true. My first impression (as a non native speaker) was that Obama visited the congresswoman and lo and behold, she got better shortly after that!

Anyway, I'm glad she is getting better. That's at least one less funeral following this massacre, even if it won't bring the rest of the victims back.

[Gerald]

Saying he wants to live up to the dreams of a 9-year-old girl who perished in a Tucson parking lot last weekend, President Obama on Wednesday urged Americans to temper the political discourse now polarizing the public square.

In honoring the heroes and victims of a mass shooting that left six dead and 14 injured, including Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the president directly addressed the ensuing national debate about rhetorical vitriol by pleading with Americans not to "use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/12/obama-visits-rep-giffords-ahead-memorial-service/


Note: Update record, Published January 12, 2011

[Freiwillige]

I will give you that 'blood libel' was yet another poor selection of words by Sarah Palin, but aside from that, she does have a very good point. People jumped all over her for the picture on her website. People can call it 'unicode 2316' if that makes them feel more justified in their views, but the bottom line is that it was designed to look like a target reticule. However, the so-called Tea Party's message was also clear; they were unhappy with the voting records of certain politicians and were targeting their districts in attempts to get out the vote. There was no advocacy of assasination, and attemps to imply that there was are both diststasteful and insensitive.

Yes, it is true that Giffords herself was on television calling that image as advocacy of assasination. She was playing the political game, just like that all do; over react and make noise to demonize the opposition. There is no justification for what happened to her, but to imply that Palin is responsible is just as disgusting as other attempts to skew this tragedy for political gain.:agree:

[Skybird]

Palin (and some others of the Tea Party) so often have used vicious rethorics and verbal vitriol that she has no right to complain if now, justified or not, she is beeing given a share of responsibility for the extreme polarisizing of the political climate and the often hate-filled atmosphere in political debates. For many, in my perception dominantly from the right wing, martial rethorics and ultra-aggressive verbal atacks seem to have become a purpose in itself. America seems to be uniquze, in these regards - protect by the claim for "unlimited free speech", everything is allowed and acceptable, even rightout lies and most vicious offenses. For much what is being used as rethorical ammunition mostlky by the Amerian right, in man y european countries you would be sued over charges of intentional character-assassination, libel and slander. Yes, these laws can be abused for censorship, and soemtimes it happens. But the American way, to offer unlimited freedom of speech, often leads to the abuse of free speech, and rethorics gaining dominance over argument and reason. Anf this is not worthy of America.

[tater]

Palin has not used "vicious" rhetoric (I'm not a Palin fan, and had you said she'd said plain "dumb" stuff, I'd agree—but not vicious, sorry), and has every right to complain about being made accessory to murder by the press, that idiot sheriff, and anyone else claiming the political climate is responsible for this when there is ZERO evidence that this nut was motivated by that (in fact, there is not even a suggestion of it).

"Vicious" would be that democrat from PA who said that an opposing pol should be shot (I quoted it up the thread a ways). THAT is vicious rhetoric.

tater

PS—Obama did a good job with the speech. The bit about living up to Christina Taylor Green's expectations was very moving. Well done.

[August]

Palin (and some others of the Tea Party) so often have used vicious rethorics and verbal vitriol that she has no right to complain if now, justified or not, she is beeing given a share of responsibility for the extreme polarisizing of the political climate and the often hate-filled atmosphere in political debates. For many, in my perception dominantly from the right wing, martial rethorics and ultra-aggressive verbal atacks seem to have become a purpose in itself. America seems to be uniquze, in these regards - protect by the claim for "unlimited free speech", everything is allowed and acceptable, even rightout lies and most vicious offenses. For much what is being used as rethorical ammunition mostlky by the Amerian right, in man y european countries you would be sued over charges of intentional character-assassination, libel and slander. Yes, these laws can be abused for censorship, and soemtimes it happens. But the American way, to offer unlimited freedom of speech, often leads to the abuse of free speech, and rethorics gaining dominance over argument and reason. Anf this is not worthy of America.

Well I am really sorry that we don't measure up to your expectations Skybird but, as usual, your perceptions of who is mostly this or is the lesser of that just do not portray an accurate picture of my country or it's people as a whole. As I have said before this is because you are looking at things through a telescope whose lenses are distorted, first by the cultural divide, but also by the biases and wishful thinking of your own media.

Now you can continue to disbelieve that and see those garbage Spiegel articles as gospel, but all that it really does is illustrate your own biases and wishful thinking.

[The Third Man]

Good news:

"Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, shot in Arizona, opens eyes for first time"

"They were in the Arizona Democrat's hospital room when they say she opened her eyes, shortly after she was visited by President Barack Obama."

Source (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-arizona-opens-eyes-for-first-time/story-e6frf7lf-1225987291241)

Unfortunately it is not true. The Sonoran Chronicle reported that Rep. Giffords could open her eyes on Sunday. (The Sonoron has since pulled the article.)


The bullet “traveled the entire length of the brain on the left side,” said Dr. Rhee, Chief Trauma Surgeon at the University Medical Center, at a press conference on Sunday. In terms of being shot in the head, this is “about as good as it’s going to get,” said Rhee.
Giffords can open her eyes, but because she is on a ventilator she can’t speak, said Rhee.

http://sonoranchronicle.com/2011/01/09/giffords-survives-the-night-can-open-eyes/

Edit: More........

Giffords is in a drug-induced coma in intensive care. Doctors frequently awaken her to check her responsiveness, and she could open her eyes and respond to simple commands Sunday - an encouraging sign, said Rhee said.

Posted Jan 9, 2011, 12:40 pm
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/010911_giffords_condition

[Bubblehead1980]

Just stop. Seriously. You have absolutely nothing to add to any of this. :damn:


Yes because you are the judge of it all right?:har: Claim I am biased but you are truly biased.I have plenty to add, just not what you want to hear...

[Sailor Steve]

Yes because you are the judge of it all right?:har: Claim I am biased but you are truly biased.I have plenty to add, just not what you want to hear...
He doesn't claim to be otherwise. You consistently post poorly-written diatribes against one side, and then pay a quick bit of lip-service admitting that "the other side 'prob' does it too". Your comments are in lock-step with the hard-core Right, and you offer nothing in the way of legitimate discussion.

Diatribe is not debate. Mookie's comment was valid and to the point. So far as the political discussions are concerned, you have yet to offer anything real.

[The Third Man]

Mookie's comment was valid and to the point. So far as the political discussions are concerned, you have yet to offer anything real.

Why so judgemental?

[mookiemookie]

Yes because you are the judge of it all right?:har: Claim I am biased but you are truly biased.I have plenty to add, just not what you want to hear...

Your behavior in this thread is especially offensive given the senseless tragedy that occurred. You're using people's deaths to engage in polemics and attempting to play the victim card for your "side". That's a slap in the face to the true victims here.

Have you opened your eyes and seen the world without looking through the lens of the far right? Can you think for yourself instead of taking the shortcut of having someone "analyze the news" and spoon feed you what you should be thinking? Honestly, have you ever objectively read something that conflicted with what you thought you knew the day before? Did it change your mind? Is your mind open to change? Can you get over your confirmation bias and achieve critical thinking?

Or do you read Hannity's blog, or Red State or a bunch of blogs written by people who believe the same things you do, and say that's it, I've got it all figured out. I'm educated, my eyes are wide open. Guess what - you don't, you're not, and they aint. Your comments are inflammatory and shallow and expose you for the political hack you are.

But there is hope. You can educate yourself. But you have to be prepared for some discomfort. You have to be prepared to accept certain ideas. The idea that YOU MAY BE WRONG. And everyone you read MIGHT BE WRONG.

You could do these things and then have something to offer when talking about politics here. But I doubt it. And the worst part is you vote. God help us all.

[The Third Man]

Your behavior in this thread is especially offensive given the senseless tragedy that occurred. You're using people's deaths to engage in polemics and attempting to play the victim card for your "side". That's a slap in the face to the true victims here.

Have you opened your eyes and seen the world without looking through the lens of the far right? Can you think for yourself instead of taking the shortcut of having someone "analyze the news" and spoon feed you what you should be thinking? Honestly, have you ever objectively read something that conflicted with what you thought you knew the day before? Did it change your mind? Is your mind open to change? Can you get over your confirmation bias and achieve critical thinking?

Or do you read Hannity's blog, or Red State or a bunch of blogs written by people who believe the same things you do, and say that's it, I've got it all figured out. I'm educated, my eyes are wide open. Guess what - you don't, you're not, and they aint. Your comments are inflammatory and shallow and expose you for the political hack you are.

But there is hope. You can educate yourself. But you have to be prepared for some discomfort. You have to be prepared to accept certain ideas. The idea that YOU MAY BE WRONG. And everyone you read MIGHT BE WRONG.

You could do these things and then have something to offer when talking about politics here. But I doubt it. And the worst part is you vote. God help us all.

I see even the left didn't heed Obama's message .. to talk with each other "in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds."

Good, now we can get on with the conflict of vision.

[mookiemookie]

I see even the left didn't heed Obama's message .. to talk with each other "in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds."

Good, now we can get on with the conflict of vision.

http://www.darg.org.za/images/kittens.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

There is a system to help, but as a citizen he has to avail himself of it. If he doesn't because he has a frank mental illness, then his liberty to decide about his own health needs to be taken away. The US used to do this, but complaints about institutionalizing people lead to that stopping. Removing this basic human right from people (their very freedom) is something Americans are loathe to do (sorry if that is a "simple" solution, but taking away someone's freedom is a last resort, not a first one).

I've seen the cycle personally, as my brother was schizophrenic. Being schizophrenic doesn't make you dangerous, but there is overlap between those that ARE dangerous and those that are not (even if the dangerous are a tiny minority). Requiring treatment means taking away their personal freedom. Requiring people to take meds pretty much requires incarceration (since unless you watch them swallow the meds, you have no way of knowing if they take them).

This post got buried during the theatre, and I think that it is the one thing that could possibly be a good outcome here. We have a long way to go in improving the quality of mental health care. However, as the road to this tragedy was underway, the shooter's family and loved ones stood by and did nothing. A major lesson to take away is that it is critical to step in and be involved in the lives of troubled loved ones. You may step on some toes, but you will save a life.

[The Third Man]

I will give you that 'blood libel' was yet another poor selection of words by Sarah Palin, but aside from that, she does have a very good point.

But Palin wasn't the first to use 'blood libel' phrase in this case. It was used as a headline on Jan. 10. It wasn't until Palin used it that the left got nuts about it. Palin Derangement Syndrom?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071913818696964.html

[Takeda Shingen]

But Palin wasn't the first to use 'blood libel' phrase in this case. It was used as a headline on Jan. 10. It wasn't until Palin used it that the left gaot nuts about it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071913818696964.html

That still doesn't make it okay, does it? I mean, is the answer always 'yeah, but look at what they're doing'? Wrong is wrong, and repeating wrongs don't make them right.

[The Third Man]

That still doesn't make it okay, does it? I mean, is the answer always 'yeah, but look at what they're doing'? Wrong is wrong, and repeating wrongs don't make them right.

Who started the attacks? Defense is a legitimate response to an attack.


I don't to point fingers...but it warrants a mention that she had just edged out a tea party candidate in a close election. With all those stirrings of armed revolution in that party...it makes me wonder.

[Takeda Shingen]

So your point in the use of the term 'blood libel' is that gimpy said that he thought that Palin is responsible for the attacks? Well, I'll point you back to post No. 11 for my response.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1569697&postcount=11

More to the point, that Palin has a legitimate point does not mean that the term wasn't used in poor taste; it was. Either that, or Palin is now Jewish and we should anticipate a new pogrom. Since I doubt either of those are the case, I would suspect that the term is somewhat insensitively used in such a context.

[Tribesman]

But Palin wasn't the first to use 'blood libel' phrase in this case. It was used as a headline on Jan. 10. It wasn't until Palin used it that the left got nuts about it. Palin Derangement Syndrom?


Is that because Palin gets more attention than an article taken from a wingnut blog?
People expect PJ media to be full of crazy crap, perhaps they foolishly expected better from Palin.

[tater]

"Blood libel" gets used as a phrase all the time, and not always in the proper context. I'm sure we could find other people using it and not getting 1:100th of the coverage her use got.

Regardless, she has also been named as if she was a causal factor in this attack, which is patently absurd.

Having a national conversation on "tone" is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, but it is entirely unrelated to this terrible crime. The first step might be to fire or otherwise shun those in government and media who even discussed "tone" as possibly contributing (the very conversation in the context of this attack is biased given there has yet to be any evidence the crazy perp was so-motivated).

[AVGWarhawk]

crazy perp


That is all he is. I posted this a bunch of pages back. The guy was a loser and a loaner. Nothing to loose. He is the John Hinkley Jr of this decade. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Takeda Shingen]

"Blood libel" gets used as a phrase all the time, and not always in the proper context. I'm sure we could find other people using it and not getting 1:100th of the coverage her use got.

And yet, my point stands. Show the others to me and I will tell you that they also wrong for doing so. People throughout time have used terms in an offensive manner. That use does not, however, excuse continued use.

[August]

Having a national conversation on "tone" is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, but it is entirely unrelated to this terrible crime.

I agree totally but unfortunately nobody wants to hear it.

[tater]

And yet, my point stands. Show the others to me and I will tell you that they also wrong for doing so. People throught time have used terms in an offensive manner. That use does not, however, excuse continued use.

Alan Dershowitz (not at all conservative) said WRT Palin and the use of the phrase:
The term “blood libel” has taken on a broad metaphorical meaning in public discourse. Although its historical origins were in theologically based false accusations against the Jews and the Jewish People,its current usage is far broader. I myself have used it to describe false accusations against the State of Israel by the Goldstone Report. There is nothing improper and certainly nothing anti-Semitic in Sarah Palin using the term to characterize what she reasonably believes are false accusations that her words or images may have caused a mentally disturbed individual to kill and maim. The fact that two of the victims are Jewish is utterly irrelevant to the propriety of using this widely used term.

A few examples of use that got virtually zero bad press:
Andrew Sullivan, October 10, 2008:

A couple of obvious thoughts. Paladino speaks of “perverts who target our children and seek to destroy their lives.” This is the gay equivalent of the medieval (and Islamist) blood-libel against Jews.

The Washington Post’s Eugene Robinson:
who said the Pittsburgh hoax was “the blood libel against black men concerning the defilement of the flower of Caucasian womanhood. It’s been with us for hundreds of years and, apparently, is still with us.”

Peter Deutsch on Crossfire (regarding the 2000 recount):
Let me just talk a little bit about the whole, I guess, spin from the Republicans about — which has been to me the absolute most — the worst statements I have ever heard probably in my life about anything. I mean, almost a blood libel by the Republicans towards Al Gore, saying that he was trying to stop men and women in uniform that are serving this country from voting. That is the most absurd thing and absolutely has no basis in fact at all.

Andrew Cohen, CBS News, May 7, 2008:
So-called “judicial activism” occurs, in other words, when it’s your side that lost the case and it is nothing short of a blood libel against judges to accuse them of operating by fiat.

Frank Rich, NYT, October 15, 2006:
The moment Mr. Foley’s e-mails became known, we saw that brand of fearmongering and bigotry at full tilt: Bush administration allies exploited the former Congressman’s predatory history to spread the grotesque canard that homosexuality is a direct path to pedophilia. It’s the kind of blood libel that in another era was spread about Jews.

I should add that I agree with you regarding the use of the phrase. Personally, I think it dilutes the real meaning. I feel the same about the misuse of "gulag" by the left during the Bush administration to refer to Gitmo. That said, if the media wants to attack Palin for the misuse, they need to spend the exact same amount of time attacking everyone else that uses it—even their own reporters (reporters and columnists are, after all, professional wordsmiths, if anything, their use of language should be held to an even higher standard).

[Takeda Shingen]

And Andrew Sullivan, The Washington Post's Eugine Robinson, Peter Deutsch, Andrew Cohen and Frank Rich are wrong for using this term. It is inappropriate and I find it offensive. I disagree with Alan Dershowitz, and if you would like to find any others, I will happily tell you that they are wrong for using it as well.

[tater]

And Andrew Sullivan, The Washington Post's Eugine Robinson, Peter Deutsch, Andrew Cohen and Frank Rich are wrong for using this term. It is inappropriate and I find it offensive. I disagree with Alan Dershowitz, and if you would like to find any others, I will happily tell you that they are wrong for using it as well.

I edited in that I agree with you—but I've read the press attacking Palin for the use, and they didn't attack anyone else for using it.

Dershowitz at least has the legitimate jewish credentials to have a more valid opinion on it than I do, and he's not a right-wing partisan, either, so it's at least a fair POV.

PS to skybird: you claim Palin has used "vicious" rhetoric in the past. Quote some examples, and I can tell you if they are indeed "vicious" to a native North American English speaker. I'll be surprised if you can find any at all. Vicious is a pretty high bar, so just posting "snarky" won't cut it.

[AVGWarhawk]

I will tell you that this Palin attack and blood libel issue is the worst misdirection of energies I have seen in a long time. Perhaps on day everyone will realize this 22 year old was nothing but a nut case and nothing more. He was not driven by any one thing but by several things in his life.

[Takeda Shingen]

I edited in that I agree with you—but I've read the press attacking Palin for the use, and they didn't attack anyone else for using it.

Dershowitz at least has the legitimate jewish credentials to have a more valid opinion on it than I do, and he's not a right-wing partisan, either, so it's at least a fair POV.

Yes, saw your edit too, but I was too late. You are very right about the gulag terminology as well. GITMO, or any of our military prison facilities were nothing like the house of horrors that the real gulags were. That was a fully inappropriate characterization, just as were the words of certain public elected officials, mostly from the left, who impugned our troops as baby killers and rapists.

[mookiemookie]

And Andrew Sullivan, The Washington Post's Eugine Robinson, Peter Deutsch, Andrew Cohen and Frank Rich are wrong for using this term. It is inappropriate and I find it offensive. I disagree with Alan Dershowitz, and if you would like to find any others, I will happily tell you that they are wrong for using it as well.

How do you figure that Sullivan and Rich were wrong in using the term? I think that making the parallel between the "Jews prey on children" meme and the "Homosexuals prey on children" meme was quite valid.

[Takeda Shingen]

How do you figure that Sullivan and Rich were wrong in using the term? I think that making the parallel between the "Jews prey on children" meme and the "Homosexuals prey on children" meme was quite valid.

A blood libel is not a simple preying on children. It is systematic and ritualized murder, where the blood of children is used in the making of religious materials and practices. Blood libel is, therefore, a weapon of religious conflict, where the opposite party is charaterized as not only being different, but is overtly described as cannibalistic. There is no comparison that can be made to slander, which is what Sullivan and Rich describe, as it lack the consequences of the blood libel label, meaning life itself.

[mookiemookie]

A blood libel is not a simple preying on children. It is systematic and ritualized murder, where the blood of children is used in the making of religious materials and practices. Blood libel is, therefore, a weapon of religious conflict, where the opposite party is charaterized as not only being different, but is overtly described as cannibalistic. There is no comparison that can be made to slander, which is what Sullivan and Rich describe.

I see your point, but I'd still argue the similarities (opposition is not only different, but immoral and pedophilic) are there.

But I'd rather not drag this meandering thread even more off topic so I'll bow out here. :salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

I see your point, but I'd still argue the similarities (opposition is not only different, but immoral and pedophilic) are there.

But I'd rather not drag this meandering thread even more off topic so I'll bow out here. :salute:

You don't need to bow out. I've always respected and appreciated your views. :up:

[tater]

You can disagree that people should use the phrase (as I said, I do), but Dershowitz still has a point that it is so-used. We can be purists about it, or be pragmatic and realize it gets used in a broader way in general, even if some of us would never use it that way.

So I think he makes a valid point. My problem is one of consistency. If they press wants to make a mountain out of the use by Palin (as I said, I'm no Palin fan), then they need to be consistent in the future, and they also need to demonstrate that before it was someone they oppose using it, they were similarly arrayed against it in the past—deciding to be purists about its use only after Palin uses it is BS. The reality is that had it not been Palin (or anyone on the right) they'd not have made an issue of it, IMHO.

[The Third Man]

You don't need to bow out. I've always respected and appreciated your views. :up:

mmmm warm fuzzie. I feel whole. All together now.........

Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah.
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

[Takeda Shingen]

mmmm warm fuzzie. I feel whole. All together now.........

Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah.
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Don't start

[The Third Man]

Don't start

LOL....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/STWayEden.jpg

[Gerald]

This is the absolute path to change the subject, there are many but...:hmmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/STWayEden.jpg

Last warning. Even Neal has told you to cool it. I suggest that you listen.

[The Third Man]

Last warning. Even Neal has told you to cool it. I suggest that you listen.

Can I ask you to stay off my back, or is that an insult? To quote Chelsea Handler, You be crazy.

[Takeda Shingen]

Can I ask you to stay off my back, or is that an insult? To quote Chelsea Handler, You be crazy.

You're the one looking for a fight. You're the one chasing me. But you aren't getting it today. Post reported.

[The Third Man]

You're the one looking for a fight. You're the one chasing me. But you aren't getting it today. Post reported.

I reported a post the other day on this very thread which called me evil names. You didn't admonish the poster but only distanced yourself. Nothing was done, so far as I could see. Are you more powerful?

Or do you think political speech on an obviously political thread can be silenced by a threat? I'm not looking for a fight. I'm looking for unconditional surrender.

[geetrue]

mookiemookie and bubblehead can see each others view point better due to the opposition of sides.

They are simply weighing what they think and say on their scales of righteousness.

It is not for us to judge, but stop and think aren't you guys better off with having to exercise what you think.

Don't let it get to you just see the blessings in being able to freely express yourselves without offending the unpaid volunteers who monitor the halls here. :know:

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, did anyone get the nice t-shirt offered at the funeral/showing repect to those who lost their lives? Was it darn poor taste the wooting after Obama speech? Did anyone feel like they were at the football game?

[Takeda Shingen]

Anyway, did anyone get the nice t-shirt offered at the funeral/showing repect to those who lost their lives? Was it darn poor taste the wooting after Obama speech? Did anyone feel like they were at the football game?

Yeah, actually, I was thinking that as well. I know that the crowd was a bunch of college kids, but the game-day atmosphere was almost inappropriately 'up', if you will.

[Tchocky]

Yeah, heard some of the yelling at the speech. Some people can't recognise a memorial service when they're attending one

[The Third Man]

Anyway, did anyone get the nice t-shirt offered at the funeral/showing repect to those who lost their lives? Was it darn poor taste the wooting after Obama speech? Did anyone feel like they were at the football game?

I didn't watch or hear the memorial. Did Barack lapse into his pentocastal/african liberation speech/accent?

[AVGWarhawk]

It was extremely inappropriate. I was waiting for the beer guy and peanut man to show up. What was up with the free t-shirts for the event? Personally I think it was a joke.

[AVGWarhawk]

I didn't watch or hear the memorial. Did Barack lapse into his pentocastal/african liberation speech/accent?

I don't know about the pentocastal/african liberation speech. I kind of get glassy eyed comatose when he starts speaking.

[CaptainHaplo]

TTM - I don't like Obama - but you ARE looking for a fight. You intentionally antagonize those you disagree with, your insult above was as disrespectful to the MEMORIAL as the cheering by the students.

Honestly, while we may agree on many points, your handling of your views leaves much to be desired. Seriously - stop agitating. I hate to say it, but your no better than Tribesman in the way you act. That being said - if you continue, expect action to be taken.

[The Third Man]

It was extremely inappropriate. I was waiting for the beer guy and peanut man to show up. What was up with the free t-shirts for the event? Personally I think it was a joke.

It wasn't a joke. Obama made it a political rally. Lies about Congresswoman Giffords and all.

You cannot trust this man's words beyond the applause.

[The Third Man]

TTM - I don't like Obama - but you ARE looking for a fight. You intentionally antagonize those you disagree with, your insult above was as disrespectful to the MEMORIAL as the cheering by the students.

Honestly, while we may agree on many points, your handling of your views leaves much to be desired. Seriously - stop agitating. I hate to say it, but your no better than Tribesman in the way you act. That being said - if you continue, expect action to be taken.

Those that disagree with me intentionally antagonize me. Direct answers to indirect insults are not off limits in a war over our country's future.

[Gerald]

It wasn't a joke. Obama made it a political rally. Lies about Congresswoman Giffords and all.

You cannot trust this man's words beyond the applause. As said, Obama is LITERALLY on Congress Woman Gifford, the lies he told, I'd love to hear from you what words he used

[Tribesman]

hate to say it, but your no better than Tribesman in the way you act.
Hey its preacherman the troll who doesn't know his scripture.:up:

Those that disagree with me intentionally antagonize me. Direct answers to indirect insults are not off limits in a war over our country's future. That is how I see it on a board so heavily populated by 'auslanders'.
Nice to know that Haplo thinks you share the same views, its rather telling.

[The Third Man]

As said, Obama is LITERALLY on Congress Woman Gifford, the lies he told, I'd love to hear from you what words he used

Opened her eyes for the first time (Obama: Gabby Opened Her Eyes For the First Time) Not the truth...Obam caught in another lie. You have to wonder why he digresses into an obvious dis- proven statement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaNwTgLChTM


Giffords is in a drug-induced coma in intensive care. Doctors frequently awaken her to check her responsiveness, and she could open her eyes and respond to simple commands Sunday - an encouraging sign, said Rhee said.

Posted Jan 9, 2011, 12:40 pm
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/...ords_condition (http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/010911_giffords_condition)

[Tribesman]

Oh dear oh dear third man, you are digging yourself into a big hole.
Can you spot the obvious mistake you have made in your silly attempt at proving the "lies"?
Its all to do with the statements of the two doctors. You know, the doctors whose statements you obviously didn't read:doh:

[The Third Man]

Oh dear oh dear third man, you are digging yourself into a big hole.
Can you spot the obvious mistake you have made in your silly attempt at proving the "lies"?
Its all to do with the statements of the two doctors. You know, the doctors whose statements you obviously didn't read:doh:

Not that it makes a difference at this point, since the Obama lie has been exposed, but you can continue the lie if you wish.

[Gerald]

Opened her eyes for the first time (Obama: Gabby Opened Her Eyes For the First Time) Not the truth...Obam caught in another lie. You have to wonder why he digresses into an obvious dis- proven statement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaNwTgLChTM


Giffords is in a drug-induced coma in intensive care. Doctors frequently awaken her to check her responsiveness, and she could open her eyes and respond to simple commands Sunday - an encouraging sign, said Rhee said.

Posted Jan 9, 2011, 12:40 pm
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/...ords_condition (http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/010911_giffords_condition) Your post is based Jan 9, after it has happened a bit more,here is link for today,Doctors say Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is moving both of her legs, her arms and has opened her eyes. With a crowd of friends and family around her bed, Giffords opened..

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/01/13/doctors-giffords-aware-surroundings/

Note: Update record, Thu, 13 Jan 2011

[The Third Man]

Your post is based Jan 9, after it has happened a bit more,here is link for today,Doctors say Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is moving both of her legs, her arms and has opened her eyes. With a crowd of friends and family around her bed, Giffords opened..

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/01/13/doctors-giffords-aware-surroundings/

Note: Update record, Thu, 13 Jan 2011

Dr. Rhea said she opened her eyes on Jan 9. Not on the day, Jan 12 that the liar Obama said she opened them for the first time. That is the point....Obama is a liar.

[Tribesman]

Not that it makes a difference at this point, since the Obama lie has been exposed, but you can continue the lie if you wish.
Your own post with its links shows you to be talking total crap, its all there in the words of the doctors themselves.:doh:
Dr. Rhea said she opened her eyes on Jan 9. Not on the day, Jan 12 that the liar Obama said she opened them for the first time. That is the point....Obama is a liar.
What did the doctor say about the 12th? Its all there in your "proof" which proved yourself wrong
So all you "exposed" is either your inability to read or your blindness.

But just for you to enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30VL4IFzkw
some good old auslanders on about the crazy crap, pure nonsense and hate filled extremism spouted by those on the right.

[The Third Man]

Your own post with its links shows you to be talking total crap, its all there in the words of the doctors themselves.:doh:

What did the doctor say about the 12th? Its all there in your "proof" which proved yourself wrong
So all you "exposed" is either your inability to read or your blindness.

But just for you to enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30VL4IFzkw
some good old auslanders on about the crazy crap, pure nonsense and hate filled extremism spouted by those on the right.

Nothing on the 12th because it was a non-issue for the doctor. Obama claimed it was her first eye opening in his political rally of 12 January. It was a lie.

Do you have trouble with dates? Or just using a post and cover strategy?

[Tribesman]

Nothing on the 12th because it was a non-issue for the doctor.
You really are blind.

"This is totally different," said Lemole.
What was totally different?
oh yeah, opening her eyes.
but hey maybe its just one doctor talking about that day when you think it was a non issue for the doctors and they didn't say anything
I wonder what Dr Rhee said.
As you heard from the president yesterday, it is true
Damn them doctors for showing you to be a liar third man:up:

[Bubblehead1980]

I see even the left didn't heed Obama's message .. to talk with each other "in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds."

Good, now we can get on with the conflict of vision.


lol typical for his type to get personal because they know they are wrong and can not make substantive arguments, so they attempt to trash someone personally, then complain when their feelings get hurt.Rather amusing actually:har:

[August]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs034.snc6/166484_1771006885176_1539380046_31873880_1891311_n .jpg

[Bubblehead1980]

Your behavior in this thread is especially offensive given the senseless tragedy that occurred. You're using people's deaths to engage in polemics and attempting to play the victim card for your "side". That's a slap in the face to the true victims here.

Have you opened your eyes and seen the world without looking through the lens of the far right? Can you think for yourself instead of taking the shortcut of having someone "analyze the news" and spoon feed you what you should be thinking? Honestly, have you ever objectively read something that conflicted with what you thought you knew the day before? Did it change your mind? Is your mind open to change? Can you get over your confirmation bias and achieve critical thinking?

Or do you read Hannity's blog, or Red State or a bunch of blogs written by people who believe the same things you do, and say that's it, I've got it all figured out. I'm educated, my eyes are wide open. Guess what - you don't, you're not, and they aint. Your comments are inflammatory and shallow and expose you for the political hack you are.

But there is hope. You can educate yourself. But you have to be prepared for some discomfort. You have to be prepared to accept certain ideas. The idea that YOU MAY BE WRONG. And everyone you read MIGHT BE WRONG.

You could do these things and then have something to offer when talking about politics here. But I doubt it. And the worst part is you vote. God help us all.

Wow you get personal on here pretty often, kind of amusing.Not worth a l response other than to point out that it is typical leftist behavior to personally attack someone who disagrees instead of engaging in a genuine debate.I am sure that if you could respond and tell me how the left is not exploiting this tragedy, you would.However, you and I both know(as does everyone else) that you can not because they have been since 30 minutes after this story broke last Saturday.

Bottom line....since you could not offer a legitimate rebuttle, you decided to attack me personally.Again, this does not shock me or bother me really, just amuses me in addition to letting me know you had no response.Again, typical lefty behavior.:arrgh!:


Once again, the point of my original post was the left are exploiting this tragedy for political gain, it is disgusting

[tater]

The police records for his previous insanity:
http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_17079366

We had a guy in E&M who was totally nuts. I looked at his notes a few times, and while derivations of Maxwell's Equations can look pretty, erm, greek, his notes were clearly unrelated to the class and "crazy" just from a glance (some stuff looked more like runes or hieroglyphs). He asked non-sequiter questions, etc. One day he missed class, and the prof told all of us to watch him, and be prepared to tackle him if he came with a gun or something. We all watched him very carefully. Scary to see those reports and how similar they are to my experience with a nut in class.

[Madox58]

I don't know about the pentocastal/african liberation speech. I kind of get glassy eyed comatose when he starts speaking.
No disrespect to the victims intended.
But I turned the channel and watched '1000 ways to die' for the first time.
What I did see while flipping channels ticked me off more then anything.
Only thing they needed was Balloons.
But maybe I missed those.

[mookiemookie]

Wow you get personal on here pretty often, kind of amusing.Not worth a l response other than to point out that it is typical leftist behavior to personally attack someone who disagrees instead of engaging in a genuine debate.I am sure that if you could respond and tell me how the left is not exploiting this tragedy, you would.However, you and I both know(as does everyone else) that you can not because they have been since 30 minutes after this story broke last Saturday.

Bottom line....since you could not offer a legitimate rebuttle, you decided to attack me personally.Again, this does not shock me or bother me really, just amuses me in addition to letting me know you had no response.Again, typical lefty behavior.:arrgh!:


Once again, the point of my original post was the left are exploiting this tragedy for political gain, it is disgusting

I ask if you're capable of seeing things without classifying the world in terms of left vs. right, us vs. them, cowboys vs. indians, Red Sox vs. Yankees, my opinion vs. wrong....

...and you call me a lefty. I now have my answer.

I'll drop this whole thing, but I'll leave you with this - don't you find it troubling that some of the most level headed and well respected folks around here have chided you?

[tater]

My only real problem with Obama's speech was that while the bit about "tone" was OK, having it at the memorial connects it to the crime. It would have been better to explicitly mention that tone has wrongfully come up, and while it is a good discussion for the nation to have, it is unrelated.

Mentioning tone at all was in fact giving it credence that it does not deserve.

[CaptainHaplo]

TTM - you gotta stop feeding tribesman - he lives to troll...

In case anyone else however was struggling - it was reported on October 9 that "she could open her eyes and respond to simple commands Sunday - an encouraging sign, said Rhee said."

Obamain his speech stated:
I have just come from the University Medical Center, just a mile from here, where our friend Gabby courageously fights to recover even as we speak. And I want to tell you -- her husband Mark is here and he allows me to share this with you -- right after we went to visit, a few minutes after we left her room and some of her colleagues in Congress were in the room, Gabby opened her eyes for the first time. (Applause.) Gabby opened her eyes for the first time. (Applause.)

This was not the "first time", according to her doctors she had been able to do for at least 3 days... And his announcement was made to a "cheering throng" of college students who turned a memorial into slain victims into a political rally.

Can you say that this was just a "coincidental mis-statement" by the President? Or are we dealing with a man who has gotten so off track that he believes he does rate the "greek temple" in which his adoring minions worshipped him as a god upon winning the presidency?

If you can - watch the video of the speech - watch his pauses and how he looks "over and beyond" the crowd - how he pauses and waits as he basks in the cheers with a solemn mein that indicates it is but what is due to him... Pay attention to how his body language is specifically attuned, and then go watch a speech by Adolph Hitler - another grand orator....

Now - I am not saying he is hitler - I am saying that his mannerism - and his penchant for sensationalism (at the cost of the truth) are reminicent of examples we have in history.

But lets not finish there - look at the text of his speech - a good orator can say things and people miss them - caught up in the moment.....

"Bad things happen, and we have to guard against simple explanations in the aftermath." ahh - the shooter bing a freaking nutcase is too simple of an answer - there must be more to it!

"For the truth is none of us can know exactly what triggered this vicious attack. None of us can know with any certainty what might have stopped these shots from being fired, or what thoughts lurked in the inner recesses of a violent man’s mind. Yes, we have to examine all the facts behind this tragedy. We cannot and will not be passive in the face of such violence"

We can't know what your thinking - so we have to act to make sure you or someone else isn't going to do the same things!

"We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of such violence in the future." How can we stop violence - I know - someone put forward a new gun control bill! (There is one due to be put forward next week now BTW....)

"let’s use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations" - moral imaginations? What the devil are those? Now "expand our moral" (s) I could understand - since the guy talking is pushing socialized medicine, gays in the military - and soon enough - gay marriage..... Expand em to where you don't have any why don'tcha....


"We may ask ourselves if we’ve shown enough kindness and generosity and compassion to the people in our lives. Perhaps we question whether we're doing right by our children, or our community, whether our priorities are in order" - support my social programs - screw the deficit - the kids WANT to live in debt enforced servitude to the government....

"We recognize our own mortality, and we are reminded that in the fleeting time we have on this Earth, what matters is not wealth, or status, or power, or fame -– but rather, how well we have loved -- (applause)-- and what small part we have played in making the lives of other people better. (Applause.)" Take from the rich - their money doesn't matter - redistribute wealth so we can all "feel better about ourselves"....

The times, they are a changing. Violence is not an acceptable answer at this time, but while the media fawns over his "best speech EVAH!!!!" - we will see how he and his allies continue to act.. Never forget - this is the administration that stated that you should never let a crisis go to waste.....

Brace yourself America.

[mookiemookie]

Now - I am not saying he is hitler - I am saying that his mannerism - and his penchant for sensationalism (at the cost of the truth) are reminicent of examples we have in history.

"I'm not saying he's Hitler, but his mannerisms are reminiscent of Hitler."

[Tchocky]

A singular interpretation, CH.

[Tribesman]

In case anyone else however was struggling - it was reported on October 9 that "she could open her eyes and respond to simple commands Sunday - an encouraging sign, said Rhee said."


In case anyone was struggling just look at Dr Rhee and Dr Lemole in the article which links off the one Third man posted.
So then false preacher is it just that you have as many problem understanding a doctors words as you have problems with the bible?


"I was there when she was surrounded by her friends from the Congress and Senate," Lemole said.
"We think it was that combination of the unexpected and the familiar" that triggered Giffords' eye opening, he said.
The presence of her family and the new experience of visits from colleague and the president caused the eye opening, he said.



This was not the "first time",
Both doctors point out that it was the first time, live with it.

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - I said examples - plural not singular. His oratory has the most in common stylistically with Adolph - who everyone can agree was a bit of a megalomaniac. You can look at Stalin, Mussilini and a few others who also presented in much the same way. Also - look at examples as Thatcher, Reagen, etc - and you see the same skill, but with a different focus. Its actually telling - some look "over the people to the future" - while others look AT the people and discuss building the future WITH THEM - not using them to simply do the job.

Tchocky - yes it is a singular interpretation. However, when the president is also the leader of his party - and his party speaks and acts in ways that demonstrate their continued goal - such as the impending gun legislation - is to further bind the rights of the people instead of solving the problems that contributed (such as state and federal governmental interference into what WAS a working mental health system at one time). A speech is all well and good - but to choose to dismiss the history - and impending acts of, the speaker and those his politics represent - is to be intentionally blind to the reality of the day.

I don't think Obama is "evil". I don't think he is the AntiChrist. But I do believe that if you actually look at what he says - in light of his history of actions and the actions of those with whom he politically has joined himself, you cannot dismiss continued actions that we see happening even after such tragedy.

Oh - and don't forget to sign up for your internet ID - don't worry - Big Brother isn't going to be watching........

[Sailor Steve]

Why so judgemental?
Because the poster in question has a long history of never discussing anything, but rather posting diatribe and then claiming to be central on the issues. That kind of writing really doesn't offer anything.

Judgemental has nothing to do with it. If he offered actual discussion I would respond accordingly, which is exactly what I have done when he's posted on the SH3 boards. When discussing the games he is respectful and earnest, and that's exactly the way I treat him. My comments here are only related to his comments here.

[Sailor Steve]

...typical leftist behavior to personally attack someone who disagrees instead of engaging in a genuine debate.
Can you point to any post here in which you have ever engaged in a genuine debate?

Bottom line....since you could not offer a legitimate rebuttle, you decided to attack me personally.Again, this does not shock me or bother me really, just amuses me in addition to letting me know you had no response.Again, typical lefty behavior.:arrgh!:
And again you show yourself to be just as typically "Righty".
He didn't attack you personally, he attacked your habit of accusing one side of wrongful behaviour when you yourself are doing exactly the same thing.

Once again, the point of my original post was the left are exploiting this tragedy for political gain, it is disgusting
And again, you have done nothing but play politics in this thread. And you're right - it is disgusting.

[Armistead]

I've become more liberal in my years...moderate for sure, and one only listen to left wing news and radio can clearly see they're using this for political gain.....so much so that it's now beyond disgusting and a disgrace regarding the crime and pain put on so many people.

[Onkel Neal]

The rhetoric here needs to simmer down. I am getting tired of the same three people filling my inbox with reported posts. One is getting a warning, another is getting a time out. Stay on topic and stay away from attacking those who disagree with you, or I'll ban the lot of you.

Neal
SUBSIM

[AVGWarhawk]

It is nice to see Gifford is progressing in great strides.

[Bilge_Rat]

shocking event. Nice to see congresswoman Giffords is getting better.

[krashkart]

Pretty amazing, all things considered. The human body can take some serious trauma and still pull through. I watched something on TV once about a young man who had been shot in the head with a .357, which destroyed one half of his brain. He survived and over the years the remaining half of his brain had begun to rewire itself to perform some of the functions that the other half normally handles. How awesome is that? :)

I can't imagine how hard this must be for the families. It's such an awful thing to happen.

Apparently the shooter hasn't lost that smirk we see in his mugshot. Reminds me of the kid a few counties up from here that killed two convenience store clerks - he was laughing all the way to his pretrial. Some things I will never understand. :x

[tater]

Another take (rabbi) on "blood libel."


Rabbi Shmuely Boteach:

Despite the strong association of the term with collective Jewish guilt and concomitant slaughter, Sarah Palin has every right to use it. The expression may be used whenever an amorphous mass is collectively accused of being murderers or accessories to murder.

The abominable element of the blood libel is not that it was used to accuse Jews, but that it was used to accuse innocent Jews—their innocence, rather than their Jewishness, being the operative point. Had the Jews been guilty of any of these heinous acts, the charge would not have been a libel.

[mookiemookie]

Another take (rabbi) on "blood libel."

Who else is sick of this term already?

[CaptainHaplo]

Regardless of disparate views - I am sure we are all thrilled to hear about the ongoing recoveries of all involved. May they each continue to be blessed with the miracles they have, and may we all remember that life is precious - so take a few minutes to spend with those you love in your own lives.

[The Third Man]

The rhetoric from the progressive in chief.

Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
Obama to libearal supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

Now he wants everyone to tone down.

[Gerald]

Doctors announced that they're "confident" in the progress made in the recovery of injured Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.

Dr. Michael Lemole, the neurosurgeon treating the Arizona lawmaker, said they "couldn't have hoped for any better improvement."

"We're confident she's making some progress now," Lemole said at a press briefing regarding the health of victims of the shooting in Tucson, Ariz.,. "She is beginning to carry out more complex sequences of events, of activities, in response to our commands -- or even spontaneously."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/14/doctors-expected-good-news-giffords-recovery/


Note: Update record, Published January 14, 2011

[mookiemookie]

Doctors announced that they're "confident" in the progress made in the recovery of injured Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.

Dr. Michael Lemole, the neurosurgeon treating the Arizona lawmaker, said they "couldn't have hoped for any better improvement."

"We're confident she's making some progress now," Lemole said at a press briefing regarding the health of victims of the shooting in Tucson, Ariz.,. "She is beginning to carry out more complex sequences of events, of activities, in response to our commands -- or even spontaneously."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/14/doctors-expected-good-news-giffords-recovery/


Note: Update record, Published January 14, 2011

That's great. I hope she pulls through as good as new.

[Armistead]

Like Olbermann's

"Worst Person in the World" segment...we have murderers and terrorist killing people and everyday someone on Fox is worse than they are...."More speech to be banned.":woot:

If you want to see actul hate speech search liberal radio host, they don't use metaphors, they use they actual words. Course because they use the words towards conservatives, I guess it's not hate speech.

[Bubblehead1980]

The rhetoric from the progressive in chief.

Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
Obama to libearal supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

Now he wants everyone to tone down.


Great post of his past quotes.Oh he does not really want everyone to tone it down, just his opponents who have made his life difficult past couple years.Obama is a lot of things but he is not stupid, not brillant as some claim but he is certainly not stupid.Barry knows he has to give the appearance of trying to mend fences but he does not want that deep down because is well, a left wing radical at heart.Just wait for 2012 election and see what crazy things he will say.Really hope the American voters are not stupid enough to vote for him again, an Obama who does not have to run for reelection again is a dangerous creature, hopefully we will not find out.

[Bubblehead1980]

I ask if you're capable of seeing things without classifying the world in terms of left vs. right, us vs. them, cowboys vs. indians, Red Sox vs. Yankees, my opinion vs. wrong....

...and you call me a lefty. I now have my answer.

I'll drop this whole thing, but I'll leave you with this - don't you find it troubling that some of the most level headed and well respected folks around here have chided you?


I am capable of seeing things outside the us vs them thing.However, we are talking politics, groups of people who share basic core values vs others who share different values.The call for bipartisanship is crap because it essentially means "sacrifice your values" to make you enemy happy, sorry but that is what has lead us to this situation our nation is in.I noticed that you usually seem to take left leaning positions, so yes called you a lefty.

No, I do not find it troubling that certain people on here have chided me.While I respect them and usually get along with them on here, does not make me wrong and them right.There has been countless times in history where the majority or certain well respected blah blah were seen as being right and later it turned out the other guy was right and they were wrong.This occurs on the grand stage of history as well as in everyday situations.I can think of several occasions in my life when everyone said I was wrong etc etc and later on I was proven to have been correct.I believe in standing up for what I know is right even when everyone is telling me I am wrong.A large part of the problem in our society is people do not stand up for what they believe in, they go along to get along.Now if there is evidence or logic etc to convince me I am not above changing my view on something.

Seems the big issue was they felt I was playing politics and honestly I was NOT.I was making a statement about how the political left in this country started exploiting the tragedy for political gain and I also said the right would most likely do the same if the situation were reversed.I also posted my educated opinion(I've studied the political left in this nation quite a bit, know they enemy sort of thing lol) on what they will try to gain out of this as far as gun control and limiting speech goes.They took offense to this and well that is not my problem.This is a discussion forum after all.I was not playing politics though, just discussing the possible ramifications of this tragedy and certain members did not care for that.

[The Third Man]

Beyond the progressive in chief's words how often have you seen the term 'teabagger' used on subsim by progressive members? If it wasn't used to inflame, why was it used? To degregate, embarass, show contempt, etc. Perhaps to show violent intent.

Lets not forget the word...'neocon'...

The socalled neocons were once liberal thinkers who realized their political thoughts were flawed and defected to the Republican party. The dislike of this defection has often been aired on this board.

[mookiemookie]

Beyond the progressive in chief's words how often have you seen the term 'teabagger' used on subsim by progressive members? If it wasn't used to inflame, why was it used? To degregate, embarass, show contempt, etc. Perhaps to show violent intent. Violent intent how? That doesn't make any sense at all.

And given as much as you use the word "left", "leftist" or "Progressive" as a pejorative, I'd say you have no room to criticize anyone on this.

[The Third Man]

Violent intent how? That doesn't make any sense at all.

And given as much as you use the word "left", "leftist" or "Progressive" as a pejorative, I'd say you have no room to criticize anyone on this.

Those labels are completely neutral as violent terms, and you know it. You may even ascribe yourself to them. I use them as a non-violent description. The use of teabagger and neocon is used as an attack of those whom you disagree..

[mookiemookie]

Those labels are completely neutral as violent terms, and you know it. You may even ascribe yourself to them. I use them as a non-violent description. The use of teabagger and neocon id used as an attack.

Calling something "neocon" is just as neutral (or not) as calling something "Progressive". Both can be used neutrally, both can be spat through clenched teeth as an insult. You can't say that one is always used neutrally while the other never is.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well anyway, nice to see Gifford is progressing well all things considered!

[The Third Man]

Calling something "neocon" is just as neutral (or not) as calling something "Progressive". Both can be used neutrally, both can be spat through clenched teeth as an insult. You can't say that one is always used neutrally while the other never is.

Are you following me? PLZ stop that. Unless you are merely contributing to the conversation. I think that OK, and appropriate..

By all means mock me for any reason.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, it is great to see Gifford make great strides in her recovery. :yeah:

[Gerald]

Yes, very good :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I am capable of seeing things outside the us vs them thing.However, we are talking politics, groups of people who share basic core values vs others who share different values.
Actually in this thread we were talking about a tragedy. You chose to bring politics into it, along with several others. You say you are capable of seeing things outside of "us vs them", but every post you ever make on any thread in GT is first and formost a political attack. Your actual words put the lie to your claims.

[breadcatcher101]

I find it bad taste to bring politics into this shooting.

All the warning signs--we should have known, bla bla, some blaming Palin--oh come on! Really.

What about the ones who killed in a like methods who were always very meek and kind-hearted, "would never hurt a fly" types?

In short, you never know, but for every killing like this the other millions of gun owners that day did not kill, very responsible people.

More lives have been saved by defensive actions than by the few who die at the hands of thugs.

I speak from experience, a firearm saved my wife's and my life once. Four thugs against the two of us. They were so messed up they didn't even notice the 45 in my hand. After I was struck with a 2x2 upside the head I fired once, downing him and the others hauled butt.

A firearm is a simple tool like the human hand. It can be used to caress, to show tenderness, or balled into a fist used to inflict pain.

I feel for the dead, but am glad to hear of the congresswomans recovery.

[Aramike]

A suggestion? Those of us wishing to discuss the tragedy without speculation, politics, etc. simply do so and ignore those who wish to insert their agenda.

I, for one, can't recall a day in which I haven't had Giffords and her family in my thoughts as far as hoping for a speedy recovery. I honestly think often of her husband and cannot imagine the depths of his despair to have that which is the most important fixture in his life yank towards the brink for no reason other than the unaided mental dereliction of a random man who became obsessed.

Furthermore I mourn for a little girl who's birthday was marred with one of our nation's greatest tragedies and who ultimately became a symbol of how fragile and precious life really is.

Senseless violence can strike anyone at any time. As logical creatures we naturally attempt to apply logic and causality to it. But in that we forget that sometimes things happen with explainations we cannot logically comprehend, because the very act is illogical.

Human sense does not apply to the senseless. While all things are causally related, human social structures and behaviors, within the spectrum of human reasoning, do not necessarily follow that rule.

When it is all said and done, hopefully if you learn one lesson it is this: We all have a choice to make. It's the choice between being able to rise above our opinions, political dispensations, social passions, etc, and acknowledging and uniting within tragedy, or regressing to such opinions and passions in an attempt to explain it away.

Who do you want to be?

[Hottentot]

At least the left in this thread had decency to quit the sermons when they were asked to stop. Seriously, I'm starting to believe that my previous sarcastic comment is actually some sort of sad reality to the select few people in- and outside this thread.

[Gerald]

As Steve has said, so is this thread about a tragedy which has hit, Gifford her family and others who have been injured, and those who died after a madman had totally tracked out, let it stay THERE, and not be drawn into other political angles and arguments that do not belong here, and in some cases, the frontier of personal attacks which is mediated can be read if you look closely at the content of the thread, and this, of course, all GT's threads on this forum, show respect by what you have to intend to post.

[DarkFish]

I find it bad taste to bring politics into this shooting.Then why do you do exactly that in the rest of your post?

[Gerald]

TUCSON, Arizona – Rep. Gabrielle Giffords no longer needs a respirator after doctors replaced her breathing tube with a different one.

Hospital officials say that Giffords underwent surgery Saturday morning to have a tube inserted in her windpipe to protect her airways. She had been breathing on her own since she was shot in the head Jan. 8, but doctors had left the breathing tube in as a precaution.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/15/doctors-replace-giffords-breathing-tube/#



Note: Update,record Published January 15, 2011

[tater]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132909487/fame-through-assassination-a-secret-service-study

The cynical part of me expects that since NPR did this story, they know something I don't. Being NPR, that something would be that the nut job's politics aren't "tea party." We'll see. (again, I personally think politics has squat to do with this crime, which is why even talking about "civility" was in fact a political attack.)

[Skybird]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/15/AR2011011502270.html?hpid=topnews

The door maybe opened a small bit. It would be good for America if people and parties and politicians realise that they need to reunite again, and tone down the aggressiveness and vitriol the past two years have seen. They all have to move back towards the centre again, becasue it is the middle where the shared and common ground is to be found - not at the extremist poles. america has more than ernough serious probvlems and challenges. It does not need to paralyse itself additionally - by putting up these poles against each other, resulting in a deadlock, and a split in the population that is widening.

[Skybird]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132909487/fame-through-assassination-a-secret-service-study

The cynical part of me expects that since NPR did this story, they know something I don't. Being NPR, that something would be that the nut job's politics aren't "tea party." We'll see. (again, I personally think politics has squat to do with this crime, which is why even talking about "civility" was in fact a political attack.)
People don't live in a cultural vacuum. They are living in a cultural atmosphere that may be encouraging or containing to their already existing inherent motivation. Your living environment feeds back on you. If it is moderate, your drive to turn hot is slowed down. If it is hot, your kettle explodes even earlier.

[tater]

Hmmm, looks like the cynical part of my is of course right. After nearly a week of hearing about "civility" (the media-created "discussion" to paint the opposition as "hateful"), I start hearing on NPR the last few days stuff like the link I posted above (I listen to NPR every single morning). This morning, it was about people with dangerous (to themselves or others) mental illness, and how to spot it...

Why the change in narrative? Because the "civility" meme won't fly when it becomes more and more clear the guy is really just crazy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg

He is a truther, hates Bush, the whole 9 yards. That in addition to his mental illness which has been abundantly clear since day one (and has been more clear every single day).

[Growler]

What bugs me about it is the fact that this nutjob is getting lots and lots of attention, both socially and politically, and by his actions - the actions of one clearly batshi- insane person - the freedoms of everyone else are being called into question.

One bugf- person's actions are being legitimized by the political reactionism that's arisen since the vent. And the most irritating part about it is the fact that, by and large, American people are nodding right along like idiot bobbleheads.

[tater]

Docs repaired a fracture in her eye socket successfully.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/giffords-undergoes-successful-operation-to-repair-eye-socket/

Best wishes for continued progress for her.

[Growler]

Docs repaired a fracture in her eye socket successfully.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/giffords-undergoes-successful-operation-to-repair-eye-socket/

Best wishes for continued progress for her.

Read that earlier - I'm taking it as a good sign, that they're concerning themselves with "collateral" issues now (ie: issues not directly threatening her life).

Thoughts with her and her husband, for sure. I can't imagine watching my wife go through what Ms. Giffords is going through.

[Gerald]

The husband of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords said he believed for about 20 minutes that his wife was dead after viewing a mistaken television news report that said the congresswoman had been fatally shot at a public event in Tucson, Arizona.

Giffords is recovering in a Tucson hospital from a gunshot wound to the head. The Jan. 8 attack outside a supermarket killed six and wounded 13.Astronaut Mark Kelly told ABC's Diane Sawyer in an interview that aired Tuesday night that he learned that Giffords had been shot on Jan. 8 when he received a phone call from her chief of staff.

He said he rushed aboard a friend's plane to fly to Arizona, and while aboard the plane saw the TV report.

"I just, you know, walked into the bathroom, and you know, broke down," he said. "To hear that she died is just, it's devastating for me."

Kelly said he later learned that she was alive when he called Giffords' mother, who was outside the operating room at the Tucson hospital where the congresswoman was being treated.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/18/staff-keeps-giffords-office-running-shooting/


Note: Update record, Published January 19, 2011

[The Third Man]

TUCSON - Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was able to stand on her own two feet today, with assistance, and UMC Dr. Peter Rhee confirms that "aggressive rehab" has already begun for the congresswoman recovering from a traumatic brain injury.

Earlier today, Giffords also sat in a chair and looked out at the Catalina Mountains from her hospital room, Dr. Rhee says.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/giffords-stands-on-her-own-feet-today/

[Gerald]

Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is to be moved on Friday to a rehabilitation centre, her family has said.

Ms Giffords, shot in the forehead in a mass shooting in Arizona last week, continues to recover in hospital.

Barring further medical complications, she will be moved to Memorial Hermann Rehabilitation Hospital in Houston, where her husband works for Nasa.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12233612

Note: Update record, 20 January 2011 Last updated at 01:45 GMT

[Gerald]

HOUSTON – The caravan carrying Rep. Gabrielle Giffords swept past cheering crowds Friday as she left a hospital in Tucson, Arizona, where she dazzled doctors with her recovery from being shot in the head two weeks ago, and was moved to Houston for rehabilitation.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/21/hospital-giffords-moves-rehab-facility-friday/


Note: Update record, Published January 21, 2011

[Gerald]

TUCSON, Ariz. -- A man accused in the deadly Tucson shooting rampage that killed six people and wounded 13 others including Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords researched lethal injections, solitary confinement and political assassinations in the days before the attack, a newspaper reported Wednesday.A source close to the investigation into 22-year-old Jared Loughner told The Washington Post that a review of his computers turned up the Internet searches. Officials with the FBI and Justice Department contacted by The Associated Press declined to comment Wednesday on the Post's story or verify any part of it

Loughner's alleged actions could help prosecutors as they begin the process of pursuing charges that could lead to the federal death penalty.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/26/report-suspect-did-research-ariz-shootings/?test=latestnews


Note:Update record, Published January 26, 2011

[Growler]

Forget the death penalty for this guy. Life, no parole, in GenPop.

[Feuer Frei!]

researched lethal injections, solitary confinement
By the looks of that he was 'planning ahead', suicide and/or after he got caught.
What a deranged individual :nope:

[Gerald]

Surely he is disturbed, and no matter what the court comes to, he destroys both his and others lives forever.

[Growler]

Good news update:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41492254/ns/us_news/

I mean, hospital food, but still.

[AVGWarhawk]

:yeah:

I hope nothing but 100% complete recovery for this woman. What a screwed up turn of events in her life.

[Gerald]

Great, :DL

[Gerald]

The brain is incredibly complex. It consists of approximately 100 billion nerve cells and controls just about everything we do.

So when someone suffers a traumatic brain injury — doctors can only hope that the brain adapts and rewires its circuits in new ways. And that's exactly the kind of flexibility that doctors and rehabilitation specialists hope to encourage in Gabrielle Giffords, the brain-injured Arizona congresswoman.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/02/14/doctors-hopeful-giffords-brain-rewire/?test=latestnews

Note: Update Record,Published February 14, 2011

[Gargamel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12715755

More good news.

[Gerald]

That's good, :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

New details: Loughner's parents took gun, disabled car to keep him home (http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/27/justice/arizona-loughner-details/index.html?hpt=hp_c2)

Kenneth Veeder, a bystander to the shooting, suffered a gunshot wound to the calf as he was talking to a family lined up to meet Giffords. Veeder, a Vietnam War combat officer who served three tours of duty, was wearing an Infinity Airborne shirt.
"I heard pop, pop, pop, pop," Veeder said.
Loughner was running and knocked him down, he said.
When Loughner was reloading his gun, one man grabbed him, and Veeder grabbed Loughner's gun that fell to the ground, Veeder said.