History is written by the victor

[Krauter]

My question is this;

Obviously, every history lesson we learn is a little subjective merely because we're getting one side of the story (mainly the victors side saying "those guys are villains, yadda yadda yadda and we won and kicked their @ss..).

Now we've all seen and loved shows and movies depicting the Allies (mostly American) in World War Two. Now I understand this, as the main producer is located in America, main target audience is Americans.

BUT, we see submarine depictions of BOTH sides (of the Atlantic) in movies like U-5?? (bloody hell its late..), Das Boot, Run Silent Run Deep, etc.

My question is this, based on the fact that there are submarine movies depicting both allied and german efforts during the war, why is there (or if there is, why have i never heard of it :O:) movies depicting the actions of the Wehrmacht and (dare I say it) SS *Panzer Corps*. Obviously I'm not interested in it for any attrocities they've done, but I'm wondering on this late night why there are no movies depicting the combat prowess of Wehrmacht, Fallschrimjager, and any other German troops during WW2?

What are your thoughts on this?

[VipertheSniper]

I honestly tried to write an answer, but it's pretty hard thinking outside that box, that was built around us with all those movies. The only thing I can imagine is, that you'd have to find a well known operation that was a success, but didn't acchieve all it's goals, which in turn bit the Germans in the ass... So I guess the Run to Dunkirk from the German side would be something that could be done, but the Germans overrunning France or Poland, from the German side, don't think that's gonna happen.

[I-25]

look up the movie Stalingrad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_%28film%29

[Penguin]

Not an uninteresting topic, I must say.

If you are only talking about films then I can recommend you some - besides the already mentioned Stalingrad (watch it! good movie!)
Cross of Iron from 1977 shows some combat on the Eastern Front from the perspective of an ordinary german Unteroffizier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Iron (warning: spoilers in the plot section)

Its sucessor, Breakthrough, takes part on the Western Front, shortly before the Allied landings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_%28film%29

Then there is the classic movie "Die Brücke" (The Bridge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Br%C3%BCcke_%28film%29 Not much combat there, but a very impressive film taking part in the last days of the war and showing the attempt of indoctrinated teenage soldiers to defend a bridge against the approchaing Americans. A very immersive and impressive film. Watch out however, there has been made a remake some years ago: don't even think about watching it!

And if you want to see the (always ;)) winning Wehrmachtm, then there are of course a lot of "Wochenschau" out on the video platform of your choice.

If you are talking about books then there has been a lot of stuff coming out in the last two decades, mainly about the fate of the ordinary German civilians, but also some good books written from the perspective of normal soldiers. These issues have been covered before only by reactionary/neonazi writers and so the intention of these books is that we can't let these morons dominate the "research" of this topic, but cover in from a neutral point of view.

If you are interested I will have to look up which books have been translated into English or French and can get back to you. Some popular writings are available by the amateur historian Guido Knopp, they may be a good way to start.

Personally I would really like to see some stuff from the view of the Japanese, but there seems to be a deficit on books covering this - and a political motivated lack of will to work up their history.

[VipertheSniper]

Oh I can't believe how I forgot this... there's a trilogy that is basically about the whole war from a German perspective, but I doubt it's available in English, maybe with subtitles: "08/15". Made in the 50's or I think, b/w.

Link to the first part on imdb
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046671/

Not much info apart from this review:


This movie isn't actually a war movie but covers the life of German conscripts on the eve of the second world war. They are in the hands of ruthless and sadistic NCOs who are constantly trying to impose harsh measures against the men. The officers on the contrary are shown much more civilized and see themselves somehow as a father-figure. The tension between the privates and their superiors forms hard bonds of friendship between them, although they come from very different social backgrounds. Private Vierbein and Gefreiter Asch are the two protagonists of this film. Vierbein is a sensible piano-player that detests the rudeness and the lack of privacy in the barracks. However he is deeply in love with Asch's sister, who is a full-propagandized Nazi-BDM-girl and demands of him to become an officer. In this tension, he attempts suicide on the shooting range but is hindered by Asch. With Vierbeins stolen ammunition and deep knowledge of the internal processes, the practical and clever Asch is able to land a brilliant coup and to get his nasty superiors all removed from the unit. The film ends with the beginning of the second world war. Many stereotypes about the different ranks were included in the film and in some cases they were played out excessively. Still many German soldiers may find similarities from some of their own experience.


the 2nd Part is about the war (winter 1941/42 on the Eastern Front)
the 3rd Part about coming home

[GoldenRivet]

I think the kriegsmarine gets so many movies because if i remember correctly, they were the only branch of service that was never required to adopt a lot of the NAZI ideology

[Penguin]

You may want to check out about Oskar Kusch:
http://www.ijnhonline.org/volume1_number1_Apr02/article_rust_kusch_uboat.doc.htm
http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm
(Prost to Oskar, who stayed a thinking man!)

Kusch's fate may have inspired Buchheim for the person of the 1.WO in Das Boot
Even if the approach towards nazi ideology may have seem a little more lax on an u-boat, there were no branches of the forces taht were an island in the brown swamp.

[Growler]

Wow... now this is an interesting can of worms you've opened here, Krauter.

As a historian, I have learned a lot of amazing stuff from the "loser's" perspectives, both warfare and more peaceful pursuits.

I learned, for instance, that the Soviets kept German PWs for MUCH longer than the Western Allies did; German PWs were still dying in the hundreds in Soviet camps three years after the "end" of War Two. I never knew this until recently.

German PWs in America were treated better than in any other nation (largely due to the fact that the US wasn't being bombed or naval-blockaded) with the hopes that word would get back to German unit, encouraging not only their surrender, but also better treatment for Americans in German PW camps.

Now, would any of this make a good movie? In today's Hollywood climate, probably not likely, unless you could convince Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg that such a film from the German perspective would matter. Schindler's List was huge because it focused on the Holocaust; there aren't too many studios that would be willing to risk the publicity backlash that they think would result if they released a movie that portrayed wartime Germans in a sympathetic light. Not saying it hasn't happened; just saying that it's a risky venture.

I could talk about this for hours, but I am supposed to be working. :)

[August]

Even John Wayne did a movie where he played a (good guy) German ship captain being chased by the Royal Navy.

[Jimbuna]

Even John Wayne did a movie where he played a (good guy) German ship captain being chased by the Royal Navy.

The Sea Chase

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048593/

[Krauter]

Exactly Growler.

On the point of the Soviets keeping Germans interned far longer than normal, there are accounts of people not getting let out of the Gulags until the mid 50's, and even then they didn't make it out because they couldn't get travel visas to travel within the USSR or get outside of it.

On the point of the movies, to me I can understand if producers want to stay away because of the holocaust, war attrocities light. In our day and age I can understand that. However, watching movies like Saving Pvt Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc showing the camraderie, fighting spirit and tactics of the units makes me think, "gee, the germans had some of the most elite and trained Army units in the war... I wonder how they acted and fought together?"

If anything I'd say depict fighting on the Eastern Front for the simple reason Americans and Brits probably don't want to watch a movie in which American or Brits are being killed. But fighting on the Eastern Front was a whole different Beast all together with many attrocities being committed daily.. :06:

Cheers,

Krauter

And I too should be getting back to work. Another 1,000-1,500 words for this essay by tonight as well as a Final to study for tomorrow :damn:

[Growler]

Exactly Growler.
...showing the camraderie, fighting spirit and tactics of the units makes me think, "gee, the germans had some of the most elite and trained Army units in the war... I wonder how they acted and fought together?"

In short, the answer is, "Yes" though the volume of material to support that answer is small, usually in German, and heavily laced with the propaganda at the time. But certain assumptions can be safely made when consideration is taken of units like Peiper's Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler and the mission entrusted to them in Wacht am Rhein, as well as Skorzeny's Kommando unit. Despite the war circumstances, both those units still had high esprit de corps and morale.

You will find some passages in texts today that do a little of that; The Longest Winter (http://www.thelongestwinterbook.com/home.html) (Alex Kershaw) includes at least some mention of some of the troops in the Fallshirmjager unit that was held up by LT Bouck's I&R Platoon of the 394th on 16 Dec 44 at Lanzerath. Most of the impression is from the American side, but there are a few Germans who related their parts of the story with candor.

Probably one of the better WW2 books I've read lately, it is the story of Bouck's platoon, but it weaves in the greater theater-wide story as backdrop. Pick it up sometime for a good read.

[TLAM Strike]

BUT, we see submarine depictions of BOTH sides (of the Atlantic) in movies like U-5?? (bloody hell its late..), Das Boot, Run Silent Run Deep, etc. Run Silent, Run Deep was the Pacific, and only from the American Perspective.

You are most likely thinking of The Enemy Below.

BTW I loved Cross of Iron (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/), its a German Perspective movie.

The only other one I can remember seeing (Other than Das Boot) was Tom Cruse's Valkyrie. Which wasn't too bad.

[Sailor Steve]

Rommel.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043461/

[frau kaleun]

Rommel.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043461/

Eh, it's okay, but nothing spectacular IMO, despite starring James Mason (who I adore).

I was disappointed at how closely it followed the book - meaning, the movie felt to me like they just filmed the book "as is," instead of taking the book's subject matter and crafting a really fine movie based on it. Since I'd already read the book the movie kind of left me flat... it seemed like just a series of vignettes dramatizing a few major moments in Rommel's life, strung together by a lot of voiceover narration representing the book's author (and a lot of the narration was taken, IIRC, almost word for word from the book).

[Sailor Steve]

Well, to my embarrassment I've never read the book nor seen the movie. The question was about films portraying the German view, and that one hadn't been mentioned.

[TLAM Strike]

Eh, it's okay, but nothing spectacular IMO, despite starring James Mason (who I adore).

I was disappointed at how closely it followed the book - meaning, the movie felt to me like they just filmed the book "as is," instead of taking the book's subject matter and crafting a really fine movie based on it. Since I'd already read the book the movie kind of left me flat... it seemed like just a series of vignettes dramatizing a few major moments in Rommel's life, strung together by a lot of voiceover narration representing the book's author (and a lot of the narration was taken, IIRC, almost word for word from the book).

Wait... what? Someone complaining that the movie was too much like the book? Has this ever happened before?

Isn't the one complaint about any movie based on a book that is deviated from the book in some way? (The one reason why I hate the end of Flight of the Intruder)

[Sailor Steve]

Isn't the one complaint about any movie based on a book that is deviated from the book in some way?
Well, there's always Die Hard, in which case the film was much better than the book.

[frau kaleun]

Well, to my embarrassment I've never read the book nor seen the movie. The question was about films portraying the German view, and that one hadn't been mentioned.

Ah, okay.

They're both worth a look for someone interested in the subject but the movie's just not the finely crafted biopic I was hoping for when I sat down to watch it, especially given some of the casting.

[Sailor Steve]

Ah, okay.

They're both worth a look for someone interested in the subject but the movie's just not the finely crafted biopic I was hoping for when I sat down to watch it, especially given some of the casting.
Were there any finely crafted biopics made during that era? There aren't all that many from any time.

[TLAM Strike]

Well, there's always Die Hard, in which case the film was much better than the book.


Bruce Willis could star in the movie adaptation of a cookbook and he would make it awesome! :O:

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, the Die Hard series were kinda special.

I also enjoyed the Lethal Weapon series.

[frau kaleun]

Wait... what? Someone complaining that the movie was too much like the book? Has this ever happened before?

Isn't the one complaint about any movie based on a book that is deviated from the book in some way? (The one reason why I hate the end of Flight of the Intruder)

I don't know if I can explain it better. Obviously I don't object that the movie followed the book in the sense that it didn't invent a lot of stuff to make the story more exciting or sexy or whatever the studio thought it needed to make $$ or because some screenwriter thought he could write a more interesting version of someone's life than they actually lived.

But the movie felt to me like it relied too heavily on the book stylistically. Watching the movie for me was kind of like having someone read the book out loud to me, with actors coming along to act out bits and pieces of the story. But they weren't telling the story, some voice representing the book's author was doing that.

[Krauter]

Run Silent, Run Deep was the Pacific, and only from the American Perspective.

You are most likely thinking of The Enemy Below.

BTW I loved Cross of Iron (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/), its a German Perspective movie.

The only other one I can remember seeing (Other than Das Boot) was Tom Cruse's Valkyrie. Which wasn't too bad.

Sorry I was just naming any submarines that came to mind at the time.

[kranz]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109779/ maybe not related with "German point of view" that much, but surely with "history is written by the victor" :D
you have also Die Gustlof, a german production, but it's not even worth posting a link to imdb.

Sorry but for me The Cross of Iron has nothing to do with a german point of view. At least in comparison to Stalingrad for example. I'm not saying that only germans can make good films about german army but the way Peckinpah made that story is just too "western-like".
One more imba movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/ fully based on J.Fest's idea of what happened in the bunker.

[Gorduz]

All quiet on the western front:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020629/

Yes I know wrong war, but still had to be mentioned

[Growler]

All quiet on the western front:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020629/

Yes I know wrong war, but still had to be mentioned

Good choice, nonetheless. Book trumps the movie, but the movie was still pretty decent.

[August]

Good choice, nonetheless. Book trumps the movie, but the movie was still pretty decent.

At least the original black and white version. The "new" one with John boy Walton and Earnest Borgnine is,...meh.

[TarJak]

In terms of books get the Sven Hassel series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Hassel Even the egnlish translations are a fun read with lots of action, dark humour and although some of the plots get a bit far fetched in the later books, they give a pretty good picture of what life was like for the German tank soldier.

One of the got made into a pretty bad movie in the '80's. It was based loosely on Hassels book Wheels of Terror but was names The Misfit Brigade (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093546/) for some reason.

I also highly recommend The Good Soldier Švejk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Soldier_%C5%A0vejk) WWI again but hilarious. There are a few versions around but I think the 13 part German TV version is best.

[heartc]

Personally I would really like to see some stuff from the view of the Japanese, but there seems to be a deficit on books covering this - and a political motivated lack of will to work up their history.

Well, no books here, but in the way of movies, check out this one (maybe you've seen it already):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ixRhvPFbiw&feature=related

It's unfortunately a very poor quality upload. At one point, there was a HD version up on youtube, which is when I watched it. I could only find this low quality one now - seems like the other version was removed on copyright grounds.
It's a very well made movie I think. Granted, it's not a Japanese movie, but an American one directed by Clint Eastwood (who imho is a great actor and film director). So I don't know if it would qualify your demand for "the Japanese view." But Eastwood tried to portray it from that perspective and I think it is done very well.


Or try this one (which I haven't seen in full yet, and afaik it's not in full on youtube, either):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imtQEMU9BEg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czAwsE7yLBc&feature=related

[frau kaleun]

Japanese movies about WWII:

Fires on the Plain

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053121/


The Human Condition (actually a trilogy):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(film_trilogy)

[August]

Japanese movies about WWII:

Fires on the Plain

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053121/


The Human Condition (actually a trilogy):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(film_trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_%28film_trilogy))

Made by Americans but told from the Japanese POV:
Letters from Iwo Jima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_Iwo_Jima

[I-25]

here's more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_%28film%29 <- thats a good one

http://eiga.wikia.com/wiki/Sea_Without_Exit

i'm big on everything japanese :yeah:

[Krauter]

Thanks alot for all the current suggestions guys :yeah:

[Dan D]

A neglected masterpiece of war literature:

“The Stalin Front”, also published as “The Stalin Organ”, by Gert Ledig.

Gert Ledig served in a Penal Battalion on the Eastern Front near Leningrad in summer 1942 as punishment for having made “communist statements”.

“ Stalin Front is a harrowing, almost photographic, description of violence and devastation, one that brings home the unforgiving reality of total war (The New York Review of Books).


Opening scene:
“The Lance-Corporal couldn't turn in his grave, because he didn't have one. Some three versts from Podrova, forty versts south of Leningrad, he had been caught in a salvo of rockets, been thrown up in the air, and with severed hands and head dangling, been impaled on the skeletal branches of what once had been a tree.

The NCO who was writhing on the ground with a piece of shrapnel in his belly, had no idea what was keeping his machine-gunner. It didn't occur to him to look up. He had his hands full with himself...”

[Penguin]

Thanks alot for all the current suggestions guys :yeah:

I second this remark! A great effort of a great community! :salute:
Thank you all for the cool tips on the Japanese films, I have only seen Letters from Iwo Jima so far. I can only recommend to watch it as a double feature.

@heatc: there was a very impressive dokumentation about surviving kamikaze pilots on arte some 15 years ago. They gathered together for the first time, 50 years after the war. I will do a bit of research to find it, or at least its title.


A neglected masterpiece of war literature:

“The Stalin Front”, also published as “The Stalin Organ”, by Gert Ledig.

Gert Ledig served in a Penal Battalion on the Eastern Front near Leningrad in summer 1942 as punishment for having made “communist statements”.


I must admit that I have never heard of Ledig before, but I will have to get the book. I might had known someone who had been in this particular batallion :o, too bad that the book is written as a novel, but maybe the names or descriptions can give me a hint about my late acquaintance.


Glad to see that there are still some readers outside! A quick amazon.com search has shown me that some of the good books have indeed been translated into american ;)
I will make a list of books from the german pov which I can recommend tomorrow, had a stressfull day today, so I'll dive down again after this message.

over and out,
Penguin

[Schroeder]

outside! A quick amazon.com search has shown me that some of the good books have indeed been translated into american ;)

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.:D

[Madox58]

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.:D
You might be better off to learn Spanish.
:haha:

As a side?
Check out info on
'The Battle of Los Angeles'
UFO nuts claim it was a UFO.
Others claim all kinds of stuff.
Draw your own theory, but it is interesting given the time period.

[Penguin]

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.:D

The Americans say that I speak with a British dialect (and a sweet;) german accent) - the British claim that I babble with an american dialect.

I guess this makes me talking the English which the folks in BD77 speak. :D

[TLAM Strike]

Check out info on
'The Battle of Los Angeles'
...

We prefer to minimize the military aspect of it so we tend to call it "The 1992 LA Riots".

:O:

[tater]

Cross of Iron?

Movies about the Germans follow a pattern (Stalingrad, das Boot, etc). Spend a while at the beginning showing us that the protagonists are not nazis, and don't like them. Have some "political officers" around that they can make fun of here and there too. Continue with a movie where the audience can like the protagonists.

Since the formula doesn't work on me, I watch those movies without any sympathy for the main characters

Letters from Iwo did the same thing, making it clear that the enlisted protagonist was taken against his will, as was the guy in the Kempeitai (show him as good guy, so we are not happy when he gets bumped off).

[Penguin]

We prefer to minimize the military aspect of it so we tend to call it "The 1992 LA Riots".

:O:

Before I looked it up, I honestly thought this term would refer to the riots.

[kranz]

Cross of Iron?

Movies about the Germans follow a pattern (...)

Since the formula doesn't work on me, I watch those movies without any sympathy for the main characters


I'm wondering what would you say about Saving Private Ryan.

[MH]

History written by victors?
While this may apply to Hollywood movies which are mostly worthless its not true for general research of ww2.
If you are interested in history read books but not just novels.
You still may have to draw your own conclusions on a lot of issues.

[tater]

I'm wondering what would you say about Saving Private Ryan.

?

US made movies—recent ones—usually tend to show a dark side to the US forces. Summary execution, etc. I think it's laudable that we own up to that. That said, many of the US movies are far too lose with history for my taste. That they paint a heroic picture doesn't bother me, frankly, I have always made a point to seek out and talk to ww2 vets, and in my opinion they are a pretty heroic lot (though not one of them would ever say more than ('the real heros are still over there (whichever theater "there" was)—dead.")

The modern german formula makes sense to win viewers. Are there any german ww2 movies where a likable protagonist is a nazi, or even just not "anti" nazi in words (if not deeds, since merely continuing to fight is a "pro-nazi regime" deed). I suppose the obvious choice for a movie outside the "formula" is Downfall. The protagonist is the secretary, right? I suppose they get around the formula a little via sexism, a girl is allowed to be a credulous supporter through no fault of her own (she's just a girl, after all, she believed what she saw on the newsreels, contrary to everything going on around her).

I'm definitely gonna watch a few listed here I have no yet seen, that's for sure.

[kranz]

what confused me in your post was the fact that you simply divided the protagonists onto nazis/non-nazis. (I guess that the division also goes like soldiers/officers in Stalingrad and the crew/I WO in Das Boot). Personally I wouldn't mind if Fritz and Rollo were nazis and still tried to rescue Muller. What I mean is that the whole pattern, which those films try to follow, is wrong. There is a good movie, Sophie Scholl-the final days and the character of Robert Mohr who is a gestapo interrogator. He would be someone going outside this pattern, at least for me. I asked you about private ryan bcoz there is this attack on the machine gun nest. So Tom Hanks was good because he attacked and endangered his squad or was he good coz he opposed the rest and didn't want to kill the german soldier? For me the borderline doesn't go nazis/non-nazis bcoz after all in Stalingrad they had to join the firing squad and kill that cobbler boy. Coming back to Downfall- but she wasn't a nazi neither. So for me she is still inside the pattern you mentioned. As I said before the film is based on Joachim Fest's book. As far as I know the book was based on several testimonies but mostly on Traudl Junge's- the secretary and Ernst-Gunter Schenck, the bold doctor who refuses to evacuate. However the film is shown as a reminiscence of the secretary only. If you are familiar with other writers dealing with Hitler's last days/hours you know that she was simply "fantasizing" in many aspects. Ok, I know it's only a movie but its construction, especially the beginning and ending suggest that what you deal with is not only a movie but a real story. I bet one would have a different opinion if the story was told by Schenck.

[Penguin]

Here are some books that I can recommend, all written by ordinary grunts. Important to know is that some were written after the war and might be influenced by certain tendencies to either trivialise some crimes or are trying to euphemize their own role. However this goes for any aspecct of oral history.
I have decided only to take books into consideration who leave no aspect out. There are some books out there who are only about comradeship and fighting, but most of them are only for a quick read on the loo - and have a corresponding quality ;)


Blood Red Snow by Günter Koschorrek
He was a machine gunner for the 24th Panzerdivision. Written in diary form from the notes he took everyday. An interesting read especially the aspect of de-empathizing in constant combat situations and realizing that he is fighting a lost war on the other hand.


Sniper on the Eastern Front by Albrecht Wacker
Who would think by this title that the book is about a sniper on the EF? No glorification, no ideology, only brutal truth from a sniper with 257 confirmed kills. If you are interested in this aspect of warfare, get this book. Comes also with information about weapons and training of the german snipers..
In the first editions, the author didn't want to reveal his name, seems like he had his reasons, the book was criticized for being to exiplicit :dead:


A Stranger to Myself by Willi Peter Reese
A remarkable book that was written from the scripts that Reese, an aspiring writer, took every night on the front and which he typed off when he was home. Ideological educated by the Nazi regime, Reese first writes from the point of view of a typical young man who was raised under the swastika. The things he sees and does change him deeply. This is a real as it gets, intense and uncensored, well written with an interesting development in terms of losing his illusions. He died in June 1944 on the Eastern Front, his body was never recovered. I found this on amazon.com for only 2 bucks.


For further reading there is a list some guy made about Eastern Front memoirs, you might also find something there:
http://www.amazon.com/German-Eastern-Front-Memoirs/lm/R2UEDLHMB9KD3Y/ref=cm_lmt_srch_f_1_rsrssi0

[Takeda Shingen]

It should be noted that we are not speaking of history being written, rather movie scripts being written. There is a difference.

That being said, much can be attributed to cultural sentiments. To Americans, America in World War II was a just nation fighting a just war. The enemy was the antithesis of this, and it makes it difficult to portray them as protagonists. This also extends to allies. The East and the West stopped talking to each other for 40 years in the aftermath of the war, so you'd be hard pressed to find a sympathetic portrayal of the Soviets in Cold War America. After all, they were the new bad guys of the day.

These attitudes tend to be slow to change, but they eventually do so. Look at the Hollywood western; for 30 years, the bad guys were always the Native Americans. They were portrayed as bloodthirsty savages that deserved the treatment they received. This image has changed drastically, and so the image of the enemy in the Second World War has begun to soften.

[Dan D]

"Downfall"(movie) is German comedy with happy ending: the pretty girl and the young boy find a bicycle and ride into the sundown.

Robert Mohr, the gestapo interrogator in "Sophie Scholl-the final days: a very authentic nazi character. The key movie dialogues are taken from the original interrogation transcripts with literal quotes. You can't get closer to "how it really was".

Müller in "Stalingrad" on the other hand is a movie nazi.

@Penguin
Ledig's book is indeed a war "novel" like "All Quiet on the Western Front" is a war novel.
It is Ledig's war experience which he wrote down in the form of a novel. Imo a great piece of literature by a very skillful writer.

I have read the book by Willi Reese, too. He was an ambitious writer.

Other books:

Uwe Timm: "In my brother's shadow: a life and death in the SS"

Dieter Wellershoff: "Der Ernstfall. Innenansichtern eines Krieges"

and Kempowski's "book of the century": "Echolot", "a collection and collage of documents by people of any kind living in the circumstances of war. Echolot consists of thousands of personal documents, letters, newspaper reports, and unpublished autobiographies that had been collected by the author over a period of more than twenty years"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/languages/germany_insideout/north5.shtml

[tater]

Of course the protagonist in Sophie Scholl is a "good guy" (girl ;) ).

Hard to make ww2 German movies where the character you are supposed to identify with and root for is a nazi (or even someone who is not an ANTI-nazi)...