First photo of Chinese F-22

[TLAM Strike]

Still a few years from a maiden flight but interesting never the less.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/3593/firstairframeofchinesej.jpg

For those who doubt we need the F-22 take note...

[Ducimus]

So, say in like maybe... i dunno, 20 to 30 years time. What kind of war with china do you think we will be engaged in? I don't think its a question of if, but when, and what kind of war.

[TLAM Strike]

So, say in like maybe... i dunno, 20 to 30 years time. What kind of war with china do you think we will be engaged in? I don't think its a question of if, but when, and what kind of war.

I think its going to be fought in space and at/under the sea.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9425/2007121701.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3118/2007121702.jpg

Anything on the Ground would be focused on Taiwan, India and maybe Siberia or Indochina.

Other ground actions maybe on Luna if the PRC sets up a base there, if they go under ground or set up defenses there we will have to send in troops, can't just nuke them from orbit.

[Spike88]

Space ground combat would suck.
Getting shot in the leg isn't going to kill you on earth. But a Bullet through your space suit would be brutal. Unless we had armored space marine suits.

[TLAM Strike]

Space ground combat would suck.
Getting shot in the leg isn't going to kill you on earth. But a Bullet through your space suit would be brutal. Unless we had armored space marine suits.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4355/bestbattlesuitsmipowera.jpg
^Required! :rock:

Then again troops would be moving like Jedi, bouncing off the walls and such. Actually moving more like Drunken Jedi... :hmmm:

I think most of the fighting in hard vacuum will be done in armored vehicles, Infantry dismounting to clear out bases and bunkers or to attack along the lip of a crater.

[Buddahaid]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/scan0001-1.jpg

:salute:

[Castout]

WTF that looks exactly like an F22 though missing the nose cone.

[Freiwillige]

Sooo who sold them the blueprints? It is an F-22 down to the rivet!!!

So espionage or treason is the culprit. Or a darn good photoshop job.

[Skybird]

As long as America does not attack China or most vital Chinese interests, any future war will be fought with money and economics. Or better: it already is.

That plane will not need "20-30 years" for maiden flight. Underestimating opponents seems to be a typical American habit, eh? :nope: The thing will perform much better than anyone in the West expected, and will be produced in sufficient quantities for territorial defence. Russia may be hampered by limited budgets and thus builds only small quantities of its latest tank or interceptor - with the Chinese, budget limitations are a bit different. They will spend the money that is needed to give them what they want - but at the same time they will prevent to financially ov erstretch themselves. Quite reasonable. Why should we expect the Chinese to work against their own interest?

The Chinese continue to learn, too, you know - and especially in quality of software engineering, comp0uters and electronics they have closed the gap. Thanks to our idiotic business relations with them, trading them the basic knowhow on which now they have started to improve all by themselves. Short-sighted profit interests and unbelievable naivety on how modernisation of the economy would change human rights have lost us the race in the long run. We still run on, yes, what else should we do. But we are already defeated.

[Schroeder]

For those who doubt we need the F-22 take note...
Do you think you could defeat the nation that is supplying you with money? If the Chinese wanted to go to war with you they would make damn sure that you don't have the funds to build your F22s in any reasonable number.;)

[the_tyrant]

That is obviously not the next gen Chinese fighter
the next gen is the J-15
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%B6%E0%CF%A3%CD%FB%C4%E3%D0%D2%B8%A3/pic/item/4af42d63513325f1e7113a0f.jpg
http://www.hbnews.net/upload/image/xwtp/1_2936053064.jpg

[Raptor1]

That is obviously not the next gen Chinese fighter
the next gen is the J-15


The J-15 is a carrier-based fighter (Supposedly based off the Su-33), not a replacement to their land-based fighter force, AFAIK.

Your first picture doesn't work, BTW.

[Oberon]

Probably costs half the F-22s price.

No, all China is interested in is the South China Sea, keep out of that and China will be content to just poke the US with espionage and trade wars.

However, the thing that a lot of people don't take into account with China is that it's a bit like an Armadillo. It's crunchy on the outside and smooth on the inside. It's weak point is the interior where the poor farmers and villagers live and work, so they often decide to send their sons and daughters to the cities on the coasts where the high tech manufacturing jobs are, so the PRC needs to accomodate housing for them and make jobs for them whilst trying to placate the interior so the interior doesn't rise up and overthrow them.
I've been playing the leader of the PRC on a forum based nationsim since August and I've done a fair bit of reading on Chinas economy and social situation and it's not as strong as many people think, however China puts on a good front which convinces the average person that it is all powerful. Yes, it is powerful, but at the same time it has several key vulnerabilities, and if the US were to put tariffs on imports from China it would bone Chinas economy quite nicely, and it would take them longer to recover than it would the US economy to recover if China dumped the excess dollars it has.
The way forward for the PRC is a gradual move towards internal production and self-sufficiency, allowing the Yuan to grow a little at a time so that it doesn't kill the export business and improving the social security so that the interior doesn't decide to rise up and start a second Chinese civil war.
It's tricky, and a tightrope but the options for the US are to either confront them and break them down, which will cost more in manpower and resources than the US would most likely be willing to invest unless they suffered a Pearl Harbour style blow at the beginning of it, or they focus on their own economy and try to work alongside the PRC...but I think we're pretty much engaged on track one now.

[Jimbuna]

Is that guy in the spacesuit @ #6 wearing a parachute? :hmmm:

[krashkart]

Sooo who sold them the blueprints? It is an F-22 down to the rivet!!!

So espionage or treason is the culprit. Or a darn good photoshop job.

China doesn't buy blueprints, they liberate them from "secure" computers.

[Ducimus]

That plane will not need "20-30 years" for maiden flight. Underestimating opponents seems to be a typical American habit, eh? :nope:

I wasn't basing my time estimate on this one single plane. But rather, when resources start dwindling and we find ourselves in direct competition with them over what resources remain. China will demand them, as will the US, and i don't see neither bending to the will of the other when we reach that point.

(edit: yes, insert obligatory Fallout reference here. lol )

[Skybird]

Of course it is over resources. As Deng Xiao Ping said: "The Mideast has oil, China has rare earths". That the West, namely America as formner majhor miner and distributor of rare earths, has shut down its former capacity to mine for these elements in other nations than China when the Chinese started to enter the market and dump prices (rare earths are anything but rare), does not signal great intelligence. The Americans now try to breathe new life into thewir former company that was running such mines in Bolivia and Africa, but until that attempt'S capacity will make a serious difference to global markets, it is estimated another 12-15 years will come and go, and even then fact remains that while there are other reservoirs of rare earths on the globe, Chiona seem to own the biggest one.

China has spend the past 25 years to buy the loyalty and sympathy of minor countries, MANY minor countries in the third world, by giving them lucrtaiuce business contracts and strengthening trade relations at good conditions, also spening a lot of financial aid. It's bribery by economics. Wetsern companies and American companies on the othe rhand have alienated many third world nations by the ruthless exploitation of their resources and catching the cream.

Ameria can trigger and support coup here and there, occasionally. But if you think they will attack China by military means, you are possibly wrong. And if the dispouted resource fields in the South Chinese Sea gets battled over, I see China already now in the superior military position.

This issue of competing for resources will not be decided the traditional American way (hidden violence, or open war), but the Chinese way: financial and economical conspiracies. They prepared for that by accepting America to fall into that deep dependence from China'S good will regarding certain fincial issues.

This is not so much a military issue, like the US uses to think. It is a thing of economic ties, and financial options.

The greatest idiots here - are the Europeans. They are neither militzarily strong like the US, nor economically and financially strong like the Chinese. The Euro as well as the state bancruptcy caused by overboarding social systems are no shiny examples that will be followed by the rest of the world - like the EU claims -, but is a sounding warning to everybody how NOT to run things. That's why both America and China do not ask them anymore.

I just wish the Chinese would not repeat all those environmental mistakes we have made in the West. If there is one thing they really could learn from us, then: not to repeat these mistakes.

[bookworm_020]

China doesn't buy blueprints, they liberate them from "secure" computers.

Or a trade off for forgiving debt? Blueprints for the F-22 = $100 Billion removed from your debt

[gimpy117]

That is obviously not the next gen Chinese fighter
the next gen is the J-15
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%B6%E0%CF%A3%CD%FB%C4%E3%D0%D2%B8%A3/pic/item/4af42d63513325f1e7113a0f.jpg
http://www.hbnews.net/upload/image/xwtp/1_2936053064.jpg

http://www.eu-digest.com/uploaded_images/eurofighter-launching-long-range-missile-769701.jpg

funny how they stole the eurofighter too

[Platapus]

Do you think you could defeat the nation that is supplying you with money? If the Chinese wanted to go to war with you they would make damn sure that you don't have the funds to build your F22s in any reasonable number.;)

And how would they be able to do that?

[TLAM Strike]

funny how they stole the eurofighter too

Eurofighter is twin engine, the J-10 is a single. Reportedly the J-10 is based a lot on the defunct IAI Lavi jet. :03:

[the_tyrant]

Eurofighter is twin engine, the J-10 is a single. Reportedly the J-10 is based a lot on the defunct IAI Lavi jet. :03:

but the plane in question is the J15

[TLAM Strike]

but the plane in question is the J15 the aircraft show was a photoshop of a proposed navalized J-10C variant for the PLAN Carrier.

The J-15 is a copy of the Su-27/33/J-11 and is not related to the J-10.

[Skybird]

And how would they be able to do that?
By letting global economic andf financial system collapse. They increasingly have won the capability to survive by Asian trade exclusively in time of crisis, they have just decided to chnage their economy politics to leave behind their dependency on US markets for their exports, they have just announced that they have started to massively boost internal demand (which is proven by their figures as well), and since always their countery is fully autark in supplying the population'S needs for food by basic food production and agriculture. Plus they do not plan for maintaining vulnerable and and logistically difficult military presences on the other side of the globe, offcoast of California, not to mention fighting a war with America within viewing range of Vancouver Island, or militarily intervening in Mexico.

[MH]

Eurofighter is twin engine, the J-10 is a single. Reportedly the J-10 is based a lot on the defunct IAI Lavi jet. :03:

Similarity is there but if Chinese engineers where looking for certain aerodynamical solution i don't think they would make deferent looking jet just not to be copycats.
The same may apply to stealth technology.
Optimal solutions may look alike.

[TLAM Strike]

Meanwhile in Luoyang, China...

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1905/20101014chinaf117a.jpg

[krashkart]

They own our networks.

[Schroeder]

@F-117mockup

Their stealth technology must be way beyond ours as I don't see anything even remotely resembling a F117 there.:hmm2:

[krashkart]

It's there alright. Look a little closer. ;)

[TLAM Strike]

See it now?
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1737/china117inhanced.jpg

[krashkart]

Those lines along the wing roots are unmistakable. Did our government fork over the plans for the Nighthawk or did Beijing snoop it out from under us?

[MH]

They just copied the Matchbox model.

[Raptor1]

I don't think it would be that hard for them to take the basic design and figure out how best to build such a thing even without the blueprints, unless they copied the electronics as well, which I doubt.

[Schroeder]

Forget what I said, I only saw the black lines of the rear parts of the wings and tail.:damn:

[TLAM Strike]

Those lines along the wing roots are unmistakable. Did our government fork over the plans for the Nighthawk or did Beijing snoop it out from under us?

From Serbia with love...
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8080/6736485.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5598/nn44lk.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5028/f11720shot20down2028122.jpg

... sooner or latter the shoot down of #806 was going to bite us in the ass... :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Already bit you, I'd say Comrade PAK-FA benefitted a fair bit from #806, after all, that's where most of the materials went.
Then of course, you have the Russians playing the same game:

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7/128357212927007490.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

Already bit you, I'd say Comrade PAK-FA benefitted a fair bit from #806, after all, that's where most of the materials went.

The Russians were working on Stealth Jets before the shoot down they started work on this bad boy in 1986...
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5936/mig144.jpg

...But then Clint Eastwood stole it... oh wait that was that other Soviet stealth plane... :O:

[XabbaRus]

Twas actually the Russians who developed the equations for stealth.

Just the US went and developed it and the materials.

The theory has been out there for ages, the chinese have enough smart people to look at the many pictures of the F-22 to work it out.

It all comes down to materials and electronics of which I'd say the Russians and the Chinese aren't that far behind. You can mump and moan all you want about the F-117 shootdown but I wouldn't be surprised if they were already working on it.

[FIREWALL]

20 to 30 yrs ? If most of you here aren't lieing about your age, you'll be close to being in a nurseing home crapping in your pants.:haha:

Until some idiot leaders here, destroy our nuclear weapons and their delivery systems, China or anyone else for that matter isn't a problem.

[TLAM Strike]

Until some idiot leaders here, destroy our nuclear weapons and their delivery systems, China or anyone else for that matter isn't a problem.

Unless some geeks sitting at a computer develop a countermeasure... or a better bomb... :hmmm:

... pray they are our geeks... :03:

[the_tyrant]

Unless some geeks sitting at a computer develop a countermeasure... or a better bomb... :hmmm:

... pray they are our geeks... :03:

thats enough war-games for you
go watch something else

[Oberon]

thats enough war-games for you
go watch something else

How about a nice game of chess?

[TLAM Strike]

Photographed at the latest Chinese air show...
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/8870/20101116164558022023.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2008/20101116164540963241.jpg

This one is from a while ago and is probably in service by now...
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4497/41189709ie5.jpg

[Oberon]

Now they're just being silly...

Ah well, you make a good design you've got to expect people to ape it, after all, you don't put millions of dollars into R&D to find the most efficient airflow shape, you wait for the other rich guy to do it and then google it.

Or there's the Tu-4 approach... :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Or there's the Tu-4 approach... :hmmm:

We have a winner.... :yep:

Six Tomahawks went down in Pakistan in 1998 on their way to AQ targets in Afghanistan. Look what then showed up a few years latter...

Pakistani Babur LACM:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5883/baburcruise1.th.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/baburcruise1.jpg/)

Chinese DH-10 LACM
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5641/dh102.jpg
Chinese C-602 ASM/LACM
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2558/c602yj62.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/c602yj62.jpg/)


How many UAVs have we lost over Pakistan? I bet Pakistan got a nice discount on their new Chendgu JF-17 jets for handing over the wreckage.

[Schroeder]

That gives a new meaning to: Don't send anything to war that you can't afford to lose.:-?

[TLAM Strike]

More Photos...

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1295/c7721acbcd26d44ee3fa9cb.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9017/d9382d5460994a2bb174023.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1076/0000012d27da888c80f74f4.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1466/35mnl29.jpg

Two types of aircraft? Competing prototypes?

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5306/439b15fcb0a5607b26961f1.jpg

[Skybird]

On picture 1 and 4 - that thing looks hot! Very!

[TLAM Strike]

On picture 1 and 4 - that thing looks hot! Very!

I am starting to think that those two photos are CGI renderings of the aircraft... :hmmm:

[Marcantilan]

I wasn't basing my time estimate on this one single plane. But rather, when resources start dwindling and we find ourselves in direct competition with them over what resources remain. China will demand them, as will the US, and i don't see neither bending to the will of the other when we reach that point.

(edit: yes, insert obligatory Fallout reference here. lol )

Interesting, my postgraduate thesis was based on that asumption.

But, analyzing various scenarios, my conclusion was that a direct confrontation between China & US is not likely going to happen in the near future. In my work, the only scenario where military action could happen is in the Spratly Islands / South China Sea.

[Oberon]

I am starting to think that those two photos are CGI renderings of the aircraft... :hmmm:

They do look a bit suss... :yep:

[nikimcbee]

All of the new chinese fighters will have the intel logo on the side.:dead:

[Jimbuna]

Photo one reminds me of a cardboard mock-up :DL

[Takeda Shingen]

All of the new chinese fighters will have the intel logo on the side.:dead:

Excellent. Then they will have the choice of either operating their HUD or jammers at any given time. And they'll run hot and suck tons of power to boot.

[FIREWALL]

The Chinese are famous for copying. It's said to be the best form of flattery.

A McChink burger > http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2018/bigmacz.th.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/bigmacz.jpg/)

[Gerald]

The Chinese are famous for copying. It's said to be the best form of flattery.

A McChink burger > http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2018/bigmacz.th.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/bigmacz.jpg/) And it consists of rice and noodles, :D

[Platapus]

Still a few years from a maiden flight but interesting never the less.



For those who doubt we need the F-22 take note...

With a range of 1,600 nautical miles, I think the United States is pretty safe from the Chinese F-22.

Now if we stick our nose into SE Asia again.......

[FIREWALL]

And it consists of rice and noodles, :D

And 2 big juicy soy burgers. :haha:

[bookworm_020]

If they build their planes to the same standard as the trains they built for us we are pretty safe! From the planes that is, not the trains!:damn::damn::damn::damn:

[TLAM Strike]

With a range of 1,600 nautical miles, I think the United States is pretty safe from the Chinese F-22.

Guam is American Soil. :03:

As for CONUS it looks like the Varyag's turbines are getting tested...
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1184/varyagdec23.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/varyagdec23.jpg/)

then of course there is always this...
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7952/2433261540104391629s600.jpg

[GoldenRivet]

Disregard

[Jimbuna]

Precisely!!

[Platapus]

Guam is American Soil.



But Guam is about 1800 NM from China. Is this chinese plane carrier capable?

[TLAM Strike]

But Guam is about 1800 NM from China. Is this chinese plane carrier capable?

No (but I would not put it past them in the future) but it can tank from several different aircraft that do have the range.

H-6U Badgers, IL-76 Midas, Y-8s can all carry IFR pods as can some PLAAF fighters.

Also air launched Kubs can help make up the difference at the expense of stealth. But they might as well send J-11s armed with those and save the stealths for Air to Air.

[longam]

I hear they borrowed some technology from others, Check out the cockpit...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8CJJeGOAG0o/S7ANppQ5XRI/AAAAAAAABqw/PQc0d-285Us/s1600/MiG-23+panel+color.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

I hear they borrowed some technology from others, Check out the cockpit...

"Borrowed" is an interesting word for it, they down right stole it! :03:

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/5869/0382843.th.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/0382843.jpg/)
At least two of these planes are not Russian. ;)

[Oberon]

Well...it flies...but then again so does a brick if you put enough thrust behind it (http://gadgetophilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/f-4_phantom_ii_in_flying.jpg)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/11/351702/video-chinas-j-20-completes-maiden-flight.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ej5kQwZWlzM/TRybiMu6uUI/AAAAAAAABYU/QKtMU88GR5o/s1600/J_20_Chinese_Fifth_generation_Fighter_jet_12.jpg

I wonder if the first pic, the F-22 copy was a testbed rather than a full prototype. TLAM Strike...take the floor! ;)


First question...

What's this?

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2122/wtfyv.jpg

[Rockstar]

First question...

What's this?

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2122/wtfyv.jpg

R2D2?

http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/swsaga/saga-xwing_cockpit2.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

R2D2?

http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/swsaga/saga-xwing_cockpit2.jpg
drogue chute for breaking on landing.

[Rockstar]

drogue chute for breaking on landing.


I didn't know he could do that.

[Oberon]

drogue chute for breaking on landing.

Bingo

Arigatou :up:

[TLAM Strike]

I wonder if the first pic, the F-22 copy was a testbed rather than a full prototype. TLAM Strike...take the floor! ;) Very good question, I don't have any definite answers but I can speculate...
Lets first take a look at the two planes side by side...
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4452/sidebysider.jpg
Note the differences:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1152/unknownbogie.jpg

Clearly two different but full sized aircraft. Now I'm unclear if the "Sino F-22" is single or twin engine but it appears slightly smaller. My theory is that China is building two prototype jets to see which one will go in to production as their 5th Gen fighter. The J-20 is the risky cutting edge desing while the Sino F-22 is the more conservative design. The only other conclusion is that China is building two stealth fighters or the "Sino F-22" is part of a canceled or soon to be canceled program.

First question...

What's this?

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2122/wtfyv.jpgBefore deployment:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4562/di6uea.jpg
...and after deployment:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6886/70061639chinesestealth.jpg

I didn't know he could do that.
R2D2, the only character not ruined by the prequels...
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3861/celebritypicturesr2d2bl.jpg

Bingo

Arigatou :up:

Mr. Roboto... :O:

[TarJak]

First publicly viewed test flight: http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/chinese-j-20-stealth-fighter-takes-flight-28172/

http://media.smh.com.au/world/world-news/chinese-stealth-fighter-first-test-2129326.html

[geetrue]

Sooo who sold them the blueprints? It is an F-22 down to the rivet!!!

So espionage or treason is the culprit. Or a darn good photoshop job.

Remember the B-29 Russia copied after WWII down to the last rivet due to having got their hands on one?

Did they ever find that F-22 that supposedly crashed in Alaska lol

[JSLTIGER]

Remember the B-29 Russia copied after WWII down to the last rivet due to having got their hands on one?

Yep...the basis for the Tu-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu-4

[TLAM Strike]

Did they ever find that F-22 that supposedly crashed in Alaska lol :haha:

...yea they did... :03:

but still aircraft don't get built that fast anymore. This J-20 we are looking at is 10-15 years of design and development at work perhaps more (The YF-22 first flew in 1990!). Probably started as has been said earlier in the thread with the downing of that 117 over Serbia.

[Matador.es]

Meanwhile in Luoyang, China...

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1905/20101014chinaf117a.jpg

How insane? Its just 1 km from the nearest stadium? Right into town between small warehouses.... this must be a cardboard version....:hmmm: for the local carneval :yep:

You are good informed though :yeah:

[TLAM Strike]

well it has a name:
Engineering Project 718 Prototype 01

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3865/engineeringproject718pr.jpg
The Chinese, Russian and US Stealth Fighters...

[XabbaRus]

Of the three the chinese design is least LO.

There is a guy called gaus1000 or something and he posts on a few forums and I've learned to listen to what he says as he is in the industry and is reasonable in his posts.

However you know the F-22 copy, not the black one but that one without the nose. I haven't read anyone on any other forums discuss or mention that other F-22 copy.

[TLAM Strike]

Interesting article (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/01/old-school-jet/) from The Danger Room, is stealth dead? Could upgraded F-15s be able to kill the J-20 using superior radar? :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Lets see who around here is clever...

What is so interesting about these photos?
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4471/trainerfactory.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9011/plantrainer.jpg