Chance of an Expansion?

[sk065]

Ahoy!

I havent been on the forums since the release of SH 5.

I decided not to buy it because of the DRM and the campaign finishing at 43.

My question is, are the devs still ironing out the bugs and/or making an expansion to add in the left out boats and years?

Thanks

S!

[Takeda Shingen]

Chances of expansion and further development are zero. The Dev Team has been moved on to other projects.

[sk065]

Thats sad to hear. I guess thats the end of sub simulation genre then. Ubi messed up big time

[Bubblehead1980]

Chances of expansion and further development are zero. The Dev Team has been moved on to other projects.


That is just disgusting...

[the_tyrant]

Thats sad to hear. I guess thats the end of sub simulation genre then. Ubi messed up big time

Wait for the reboot in a few years!
now with hot chicks in your crew!:yeah:

[Grayghost59]

If we the customers contact them by e-mail, snail mail and by phone, that should show them that profit is in this market. Money always talks louder.

[Yosarian]

If we the customers contact them by e-mail, snail mail and by phone, that should show them that profit is in this market. Money always talks louder.
For a game publisher profit starts not until 150.000 sold copies.:o

[Ducimus]

I think you'll be lucky to see a patch, let alone an expansion.

[Madox58]

If you dig through the files you'll see plenty of comments that suggest
a "Pay me" for this fix type thing was planned.
Like the Expansion for SH4 was done.
With all the Villagers ready to Burn down Dr. Ubi-stien's abode?
I think they'll just move the lab and throw something ugly at us at a future date and call it candy.
:nope:

[Ducimus]

Personally, i think SH5 will be the last submarine simulation released for many years to come. Their just isn't a big enough market for it this day and age.

[Takeda Shingen]

Personally, i think SH5 will be the last submarine simulation released for many years to come. Their just isn't a big enough market for it this day and age.

You've been saying that for a few months now. I used to disagree with you, but as of late, I have come to believe that you are indeed correct.

[Madox58]

From the SubSim Meet 2008?
I never really thought SH5 would be here now.
I figured on one more year till release.
(It needed it badly unfortunately for us.)
The market was bad enuff before SH5.
Then they throw out something that just wasted a possible whole new crowd!
As I go back and watch the hype?
I keep seeing Crack being sold on the street corner.
:nope:

[janh]

You've been saying that for a few months now. I used to disagree with you, but as of late, I have come to believe that you are indeed correct.

You guys are probably right, but I would also not completely rule out any surprise from a new publisher that sees his time to enter this genre come now.

Also Sonalysts have been doing well recently, and might be up to "outsource" some of their training software for the navy again as a greatly simplified game. Maybe they'll finally work on a new sequel for 1950+ naval warfare.

My opinion is that if we were given simulations at a lower release rate (in contrast to Ubis new strategy), but each time with substantial new features and improvements as wished by the community, and great modding capabilities, then these games would have a long lifetime and may over a few years generate their 150k sales. And with good games like SHIII, especially once it was supermodded, I can wait for another 3-5 years for the sequel.

[elanaiba]

If you dig through the files you'll see plenty of comments that suggest
a "Pay me" for this fix type thing was planned.
Like the Expansion for SH4 was done.


Jeff, I'm sorry but there's nothing true in your assumption of a "pay me for this fix attitude. And there's nothing bad about planning ahead for further development, free or paid. Hell, we've been using some code from SH3 era.

If everyone would plan ahead properly things would run much more smoothly in development, instead of hitting all sorts of bad / obsolete parts of code that you can't rewrite cause you lack the time.

[BigBANGtheory]

Not just bad planning, bad communication also.

Its not just SH5 either this whole mess has damaged the entire Ubisoft brand.

The development team should consider going it alone IMHO, put a business case together for another publisher with proper planning and resign from Ubisoft when the time is right. There is some good work in SH5 it just not all there...

[Webster]

Jeff, I'm sorry but there's nothing true in your assumption of a "pay me for this fix attitude. And there's nothing bad about planning ahead for further development, free or paid. Hell, we've been using some code from SH3 era.

If everyone would plan ahead properly things would run much more smoothly in development, instead of hitting all sorts of bad / obsolete parts of code that you can't rewrite cause you lack the time.


thats like building a brand new car only to put bald tires and a worn out engine in it :nope:, it makes no sense and is the core of where ubi went wrong.

[Krauter]

Chances of an expansion are about as high as my chances of passing this history class...

[elanaiba]

Can we help?

[jdkbph]

Can we help?


Yes.

Fix the game.

Please.

[Ducimus]

I think he was talking about Krauter's history class.

[PL_Andrev]

Can we help?

Hmmm... is something way to shot torpedoes by AI naval ships like DD and cruisers?

[Zedi]

Can we help?

Yes, start moding plx :D

Actually, I never understood how come the devs never moded their game. I suppose there should be at least 1 SH fan in the dev team, so I wonder how can they play the game without mod it/fix it :hmmm: It's kinda hard for me to believe that a dev is playing the game only with the mods developed on subsim when they know best what is wrong and how to fix it.

And I dont think that Ubi can force a developer to stay away from moding and even if they do.. a dev can always register as anonymus and work out mods as a hobby. So what is that hold the devs back from moding the game .... ?

[JU_88]

Yes, start moding plx :D

Actually, I never understood how come the devs never moded their game.

I can, many of the team have worked on Sh3, 4 & 5 thats 5 solid years of working on SH, with all the stress, pressure and overtime.
Thats a big enough recepie for burnout right there.

Things are very different when something is "your job" Take what ever job you do and ask youself if you would come home after a hard day's work - and volentarily keep on going at it in your free time / evening? (and unpaid of course)

Maybe some crazy people have the stamina for this - but most do not.

[Madox58]

Jeff, I'm sorry but there's nothing true in your assumption of a "pay me for this fix attitude.

Dan, this is direct from one of the python scripts in SH5.
##Removed SubmarineTypes (it will be added in the addon)

That is not left over from SH3 or SH4 as they did not have any python scripts.
Of course I'll agree it does not state for a paid for or free addon.

Planning ahead is great if your Bosses actually let you build an addon.
I and many others hope you get the chance!
:salute:

[Karasunx]

Even if expansions aren't planned, that would be an interesting route to take with Silent Hunter. Other sims that I know of (Rise of Flight, Railroad Sims) add other vehicles and features in expansion formats. It makes sense, at least in my mind, trying to support a niche game has got to be costly so why not develop smaller add ons that people can pay for if they really want them. True, people would probably complain that these "added features" should have been in the initial release, but paying 10-20$ for what someone spent 100's of man hours on would be worth it. Not to mention extending and improving the life of what was a good base game.

[tonschk]

I agree :yeah: with Karasunx

[janh]

^^
That way you an keep the simulation basic and simple for those who are not very deep in the subject and would be satisfied with 1 sub model and cruising around a bit. And those who are truly (sub)sim* fans, you could offer additionally the II, IX and XXI boats for $10 each, or a "Dönitz Addon" with some additional gimicks like a strategic screen to change wolfpack placements or so.

That way you could make do with a base price of $40, and with all addons, you'd end up in the premium section of elite sims and strategy games of ~$80.

All that would be missing to still take that route for SHV would be (a) a patch to fix all the problems and bugs from cinema like explosions, exaggerated campaign goals, get working AI subs and wolfpacks with proper AI, improve ship and plane AI, and add the missing 43-45 part. And then take it on from there.

Maybe long term this thing would even open the route to the development of a new Destroyer Command, or a new "Fighting Steel" with strategic campaign level on a full Atlantic map? Never seen before! The engine would surely be suitable for it.

[elanaiba]

Dan, this is direct from one of the python scripts in SH5.
##Removed SubmarineTypes (it will be added in the addon)


Thats just something written by a programmer for unknown reasons, there was no grand "evil" strategy behind it. In particular, we were toying with the idea to allow access to some campaigns based on current submarine type (Drumbeat only for type IXs and VIIs, for example) but that went out of the window when he had to dropped all sub types except the type VII... so the guy had to remove that part.

http://yfrog.com/mxcampaign03outilinejhttp://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4299/campaign03outiline.jpg



That is not left over from SH3 or SH4 as they did not have any python scripts.


Didn't mean all is... I'm just pointing out that properly done code allows easier upgrading and use for future products. The reality is that people demand and should get more with each product, otherwise they say "but I already have SH3 and now its polished and modded and very cool" and it is true. So you have to bring something new on top of that, but if you rewrite everything from zero, it becomes too much to chew...


Planning ahead is great if your Bosses actually let you build an addon.
I and many others hope you get the chance!


I know Jeff, thanks for this and all else you do ;)

[Shiplord]

Before Ubisoft or the developers think about an expansion pack, I would first like they eliminate the errors in SH5. I paid 49€ for a faulty product, the publisher now refuses to fix it. I spend no more money on a game publisher that treats its paying customers like Ubisoft does.:down:

[TheDarkWraith]

^^
All that would be missing to still take that route for SHV would be (a) a patch to fix all the problems and bugs from cinema like explosions, exaggerated campaign goals, get working AI subs and wolfpacks with proper AI, improve ship and plane AI, and add the missing 43-45 part. And then take it on from there.

Not tooting my own horn here but if you haven't tried IRAI then you are missing out. There is a drastic and noticeable change in all the AI with it.

[tonschk]

Slient Hunter 5 have a lot of potential and is getting better and better day by day :salute:

[SilentSnake]

Well the devs are paid to make the game and once they have made it they are not going to continue patching it or making expansions unless UBI pays them to. Unfortunately the game did not sell very well and its one of those games that a good review would actually get people to purchase. The lack of an expansion proves the game did not sell well. That does not mean its the end of the subsim genre, far from it. A company might see a gap in the market and i am sure another will come along eventually, it just wont be called silent hunter ( unless someone buys the right to name ).

[Buddahaid]

They blew it by by trying to mainstream the product. A gamble that failed to win the hearts of the old school, and the mainstream newcomers. It made for to many compromises that left it an hermaphrodite. :yawn:

[Krauter]

Haha any help is welcome Dan :D

Thats just something written by a programmer for unknown reasons, there was no grand "evil" strategy behind it

LIES!!! STOP THE LIES.. We all know that your evil plan to take over the world via the Sh5 unfinished product business is almost close to fruition :O:
I seriously think that if the devs had had enough time to implement their ideas properly and had enough time to properly troubleshoot things this game would've been kick ass.

Also, on a side note, would it be possible for devs (like Dan) to help the community develop a v1.x patch for the game? For example giving us certain workarounds to hardcoded issues? Or would that go outside of any legal boundaries?

[FIREWALL]

If you dig through the files you'll see plenty of comments that suggest
a "Pay me" for this fix type thing was planned.
Like the Expansion for SH4 was done.
With all the Villagers ready to Burn down Dr. Ubi-stien's abode?
I think they'll just move the lab and throw something ugly at us at a future date and call it candy.
:nope:

Personally, i think SH5 will be the last submarine simulation released for many years to come. Their just isn't a big enough market for it this day and age.

These two posts say it all. The Modders have taken over where UBI left off.

When UBI needs the server space for better selling games, a patch will come out to queer the DRM.

[Webster]

would it be possible for devs (like Dan) to help the community develop a v1.x patch for the game? For example giving us certain workarounds to hardcoded issues? Or would that go outside of any legal boundaries?

i think the devs are in an impossible situation since being employees they arent as free to do things as modders are.

they know stuff that if it were shared could be seen as breach of confidentiality and such so its easy to think "why not share some secrets so we know what to do" but they arent really in a position to do so without risking their jobs and reputations.

IMHO i think if he could then Dan wouldnt mind working with others here to fine tune this game for us to fix most issues but its not practical to expect anything like that. a few hints along the way is the most we can ask for.

[Krauter]

Just what I thought :down:

I'm sure with all of the frantic activity going on in the Mods section however we'll see some good improvements soon.

[Madox58]

I know Jeff, thanks for this and all else you do ;)

:DL
I like you to Dan.
:yep:

I just wish I could run the Darned Game!!!
:haha:

[Zoomer96]

I would like to point that they blew it when they added the .DRM and required the online connection. And also not completing the last 2 years of the war. We still hear bitching about those things and others. UBI made a great game inspite of themselves. But, IMHO, public opinion concerning players rights killed SH5. Oh, and not being in the Pacific Ocean.

[Zedi]

Thats just something written by a programmer for unknown reasons, there was no grand "evil" strategy behind it. In particular, we were toying with the idea to allow access to some campaigns based on current submarine type (Drumbeat only for type IXs and VIIs, for example) but that went out of the window when he had to dropped all sub types except the type VII... so the guy had to remove that part.

http://yfrog.com/mxcampaign03outilinejhttp://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4299/campaign03outiline.jpg

....

Now this explains why I saw at every campaign something that appears to be a sub type selection, why Western Approaches is named Skirmish in the cfg files and many other stuff that have logic only now when I see this screenshot. Also, I see is a pretty big difference on the campaign structure, logic and advance, the main menu is better organized etc ... this looks way better that what we have now :-?

...Things are very different when something is "your job" Take what ever job you do and ask youself if you would come home after a hard day's work - and voluntarily keep on going at it in your free time / evening? (and unpaid of course)

Maybe some crazy people have the stamina for this - but most do not.

Then seems like all in the dev team are mercenaries, none who actually love the game. I cannot imagine myself being a SH5 dev and not modding the game. Even if the publisher, the company or whoever force me to stay away.. I register as anonymus here, I use google translator and a proxy and I start release mods. It's a hobby and none can stop me to do whatever I want in my free time.

i think the devs are in an impossible situation since being employees they arent as free to do things as modders are.

they know stuff that if it were shared could be seen as breach of confidentiality and such so its easy to think "why not share some secrets so we know what to do" but they arent really in a position to do so without risking their jobs and reputations.

IMHO i think if he could then Dan wouldnt mind working with others here to fine tune this game for us to fix most issues but its not practical to expect anything like that. a few hints along the way is the most we can ask for.

Nobody ask from them to remove the drm or break the hardcode part, but would be nice to see fixes where is possible. I'm not sayin that is their obligation to mod, no way for that, just wonder how come they don't involve and work on mods and fixes like a hobby.

[JU_88]

Then seems like all in the dev team are mercenaries, none who actually love the game. I cannot imagine myself being a SH5 dev and not modding the game. Even if the publisher, the company or whoever force me to stay away.. I register as anonymus here, I use google translator and a proxy and I start release mods. It's a hobby and none can stop me to do whatever I want in my free time.

Maybe, but im just saying that work and hobbies tend to be two different things for a very good reason - too much of the same thing can drive a person insane!

[janh]

Not tooting my own horn here but if you haven't tried IRAI then you are missing out. There is a drastic and noticeable change in all the AI with it.

For the time being, I am still an onlooker. OSP-DRM is still a kind of huge salt grain that holds me back. There is just too many other games out there that can eat my very rare free time these days, but don't come with it. If have been porting a big scripting project from OFP days to ARMA2 now that I switched a year ago, and stops me from buying anything new until I am done with that.

But I will keep watching progress and changes here. Surely by the time some modders announced "added new sub types", "added all GWX ships", and "added complete, dynamic 43-45 campaign", I might convince myself to buy. I am fully aware of your efforts with the AI, and it does look very promising. Would be nice if some of that would make it into stock via a patch, and if the dev's could do something to further the interaction with AI subs and wolfpacks (reaction to contact reports etc). That part just played to big of a role in the Atlantic.

[Webster]

Nobody ask from them to remove the drm or break the hardcode part, but would be nice to see fixes where is possible. I'm not sayin that is their obligation to mod, no way for that, just wonder how come they don't involve and work on mods and fixes like a hobby.

well they worked on it because it was their job to do so and now it no longer is required of them.

while we are very devoted to the game, it is always possible that they may be indifferent to it as individuals so who are we to ask they give up their free time to work on something which they may or may not be interested in playing when it is their choice to do so or not.

im not saying they dont care, im only saying each of us has their own priorities in life and who is to say if the devs have any interest in this game beyond just doing their jobs.

i believe some do but just like everyone else, just caring about the game is one thing but having the ability to devote the time to modding the game isnt easy

the devs do contribute to modders efforts with advice when they can but i doubt they could create their own mods for fear of being sued or losing their job

[jdkbph]

I think he was talking about Krauter's history class.

I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was asking...

...what can he do to help fix this broken piece of software he built and dumped on the customers who paid his salary?

(I'd like to say UBI did it, but as we've been told over and over, we must be mindful that Dev = UBI)

...as opposed to making some grand gesture regarding the education of one of our forum members.

Or anything else for that matter... any other effort, activity, comment on the weather, joke, or any other type of forum post... that does not contribute, directly and immediately, to fixing this game.

My opinion.

[Diopos]

...
but i doubt they could create their own mods for fear of being sued or losing their job

Why? In what sense modding is "legal" for us but not the designers?

:hmmm:

.

[elanaiba]

I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was asking...

...what can he do to help fix this broken piece of software he built and dumped on the customers who paid his salary?

(I'd like to say UBI did it, but as we've been told over and over, we must be mindful that Dev = UBI)

...as opposed to making some grand gesture regarding the education of one of our forum members.

Or anything else for that matter... any other effort, activity, comment on the weather, joke, or any other type of forum post... that does not contribute, directly and immediately, to fixing this game.

My opinion.

Its a forum and a community, one I feel I am part of. I can make a joke, like anyone else... and indeed I was. When I joined Subsim meets, I was not only doing it for work reasons, but also to meet some friends, know some people, make a few jokes.

As for contributing, it's a long discussion... maybe I am contributing something, maybe not enough. Its not my place to boast about what I do when I do.

Personally, if after all this time from the release of SH5, I'd come here asking "can I help in fixing SH5" i'd find that amusing/silly. I mean "Doh..."

[Takeda Shingen]

I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was asking...

...what can he do to help fix this broken piece of software he built and dumped on the customers who paid his salary?

(I'd like to say UBI did it, but as we've been told over and over, we must be mindful that Dev = UBI)

...as opposed to making some grand gesture regarding the education of one of our forum members.

Or anything else for that matter... any other effort, activity, comment on the weather, joke, or any other type of forum post... that does not contribute, directly and immediately, to fixing this game.

My opinion.

Actually, elanaiba has been a member of the forum long before the development of SH5 began. Just like any other member, he is free to post to help with homework, discuss the weather or give updates on the status of his garden as he sees fit.

[robbo180265]

I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was asking...

...what can he do to help fix this broken piece of software he built and dumped on the customers who paid his salary?

(I'd like to say UBI did it, but as we've been told over and over, we must be mindful that Dev = UBI)

...as opposed to making some grand gesture regarding the education of one of our forum members.

Or anything else for that matter... any other effort, activity, comment on the weather, joke, or any other type of forum post... that does not contribute, directly and immediately, to fixing this game.

My opinion.

And with opinions like yours it's a wonder he still does come into this forum.

Thankfully nowadays, opinions like yours seem in the minority:nope:

[FIREWALL]

And with opinions like yours it's a wonder he still does come into this forum.

Thankfully nowadays, opinions like yours seem in the minority:nope:


No. Opinions like yours are in the Minority.

You need an Attitude adjustment.:nope:

[TheDarkWraith]

elanaiba has been a great help to me. Without some of the info he gave me my mods wouldn't be where they are today :up: Am always looking for more info too ;)

[robbo180265]

No. Opinions like yours are in the Minority.

You need an Attitude adjustment.:nope:

Lol !

Just...... Lol !

[Webster]

Why? In what sense modding is "legal" for us but not the designers?

:hmmm:

.


in the same way that trading stocks on insider info is illegal if your company knows info the general public isnt told about.

the game and all that went into it belongs to ubi NOT the devs so if you cant see the grey area of that, well i am at a loss to explain it to you

its not illegal for us to mod it because WE dont know the codes or have access to what went into the game so there is no question about if we accidently figure something out but as an employee of ubi who created a mod for the game you developed for them, do you really expect any success trying to explain to your boss you didnt give out restricted game code :hmmm:

[Madox58]

Dan and others from the Dev Team have helped in alot of areas.
Some of the insights they have passed to us resulted in
the early 'Teaser Exporter' for SH5.
That is evolving into an Import/Export Editor now!
I'd say that's a pretty important involvement in the SH5 saga.
:yep:

And if you wish to call me a Fanboy of the Devs?
Meh.
:haha:

[Budds]

I dont post much........
But Issues like this and similar, I just gotta !

Be thankful the IP owner lets mods happen at all, let alone offers encouragement.
If taken Strictly, Most EULAs forbid the end user from modifying the product PERIOD !
And if you distribute mods...... Well the IP owner can make things bad for you.
I have watched a few VERY promising titles fade away because of Mod ban, or encryption of needed files.

Most Publishers today want you to buy 4-6 NEW titles from them a Year.
If they allow community mods to extend the life of a Sim, they may only sell you One a year...... see where this goes ?
CONSOLES !!!!!
No Mods.... Buy the Newest Title,,,, Keep the Customer in a Buying cycle.

What share of the Market they miss....
Old, Hardcore, make a good title last 10 years..... Some that would rather mod, than actually Play the Title !
But thats a small demographic.....
What they miss is.... that customer will usually be the most LOYAL customer and buy most of their other titles anyway in hopes it can surpass their favorite...... willing to have patience thru a release/patch process, knowing how these things go, and giving the publisher the benefit of the doubt !

But as I said..... Small share of the Market today..... (*sigh*)....

So applaud those pc titles that give their customers flexibility !
We Need More PC titles to Live... as the consoles are slowly making our Gaming PC's obsolete for any thing other than CAD....lol.....

Anywyas........'
I'll shut up for another couple years now.....
:03:

[Takeda Shingen]

No need to disappear for a couple of years. Calm and reasonable views are always welcome.

[makman94]

well , the old (wise) men say ''you don't talk about ROPE inside the house that belonged to a HANGED MAN''.

i am with Magnum....

where is the sub SIMULATOR (...or to put it more clearer....what is the new in its code that sh5 brought ) to talk about ?

edit: i miss....sorlim !!! he was loving us .....xexexe

[tonschk]

I dont post much........
But Issues like this and similar, I just gotta !

Be thankful the IP owner lets mods happen at all, let alone offers encouragement.
If taken Strictly, Most EULAs forbid the end user from modifying the product PERIOD !
And if you distribute mods...... Well the IP owner can make things bad for you.
I have watched a few VERY promising titles fade away because of Mod ban, or encryption of needed files.

Most Publishers today want you to buy 4-6 NEW titles from them a Year.
If they allow community mods to extend the life of a Sim, they may only sell you One a year...... see where this goes ?
CONSOLES !!!!!
No Mods.... Buy the Newest Title,,,, Keep the Customer in a Buying cycle.

What share of the Market they miss....
Old, Hardcore, make a good title last 10 years..... Some that would rather mod, than actually Play the Title !
But thats a small demographic.....
What they miss is.... that customer will usually be the most LOYAL customer and buy most of their other titles anyway in hopes it can surpass their favorite...... willing to have patience thru a release/patch process, knowing how these things go, and giving the publisher the benefit of the doubt !

But as I said..... Small share of the Market today..... (*sigh*)....

So applaud those pc titles that give their customers flexibility !
We Need More PC titles to Live... as the consoles are slowly making our Gaming PC's obsolete for any thing other than CAD....lol.....

Anywyas........'
I'll shut up for another couple years now.....
:03:

:DL Very Good and reasonable post, I totally Agree :up:

[Madox58]

i miss....sorlim !!! he was loving us .....xexexe

We internet 'bullied' him.
So he went sorlong.
:D

[THE_MASK]

Some modders are trying to make SH5 a better game for all with help from Dan on occasion . We dont need an expansion , just cooperation .

[Zedi]

Tbh, I suspected for a very long time W_Clear to be a dev. A stealth one whos playin the chinese just to stay undercover :D Just the simple fact he was not able to fix a simple tga file made me to think so :P

Anyway, I'm sure IF they play this game, they have some hidden place where they share experience and mods. I just cannot imagine a dev playing the stock game and using only the mods released here. Wish I could track down that place and steal some mods :O:

Regarding to what Budds said, what makes this game to be a slow but constant seller is the fact that is modable. Is the reason why people will buy it even after years from release, just because they know that they have access to free mods that will change completely the game experience and every day is something new on the horizon.

Problem with SH5 is that we are still fighting with the bugs and learn how to mod it. Sadly, every SH5 mod release start with "this is a fix to ...." instead of "this will add/change". Is the reason why many experienced moders and players are still prefer to mod & play that old SH3 and stay away from SH5 :/

[THE_MASK]

We internet 'bullied' him.
So he went sorlong.
:DThats woeful :O:

[Sailor Steve]

And soroful. :dead:

[Hartmann]

No chances

If ubi don´t release a single final patch, how can be expected a future Addon or Expansion ?

The bad thing is that probably SH V was developed for a future addons ( extra submarines and 1943-1945) but now we only have half game and unfinished

:hmmm:


The good side is that if it is one of the last submarine games in a lot of time, it will be modded and improved by the community and reach the level of ShIII with better graphics

[Madox58]

And soroful. :dead:

I just hope he didn't go away sor full of anger
that he's sory he ever sorndered in here.
Ah well....
Soronara Sorlimb.
I mean Sorlim.
:-?

[robbo180265]

I dont post much........
But Issues like this and similar, I just gotta !

Be thankful the IP owner lets mods happen at all, let alone offers encouragement.
If taken Strictly, Most EULAs forbid the end user from modifying the product PERIOD !
And if you distribute mods...... Well the IP owner can make things bad for you.
I have watched a few VERY promising titles fade away because of Mod ban, or encryption of needed files.

Most Publishers today want you to buy 4-6 NEW titles from them a Year.
If they allow community mods to extend the life of a Sim, they may only sell you One a year...... see where this goes ?
CONSOLES !!!!!
No Mods.... Buy the Newest Title,,,, Keep the Customer in a Buying cycle.

What share of the Market they miss....
Old, Hardcore, make a good title last 10 years..... Some that would rather mod, than actually Play the Title !
But thats a small demographic.....
What they miss is.... that customer will usually be the most LOYAL customer and buy most of their other titles anyway in hopes it can surpass their favorite...... willing to have patience thru a release/patch process, knowing how these things go, and giving the publisher the benefit of the doubt !

But as I said..... Small share of the Market today..... (*sigh*)....

So applaud those pc titles that give their customers flexibility !
We Need More PC titles to Live... as the consoles are slowly making our Gaming PC's obsolete for any thing other than CAD....lol.....

Anywyas........'
I'll shut up for another couple years now.....
:03:

Really nice post - totally agree with you.

[Diopos]

...
the game and all that went into it belongs to ubi NOT the devs so if you cant see the grey area of that, well i am at a loss to explain it to you
...


Explain it to SHV Devs
(from their interview to Subsim LINK (http://www.goarmy.eu/board77-pc-spiele/592572-silent-hunter-v/index2.html)):


Subsim: Modding, everybody asked me about this, the games before have been open to a certain extent to mod, and modding is a big thing, a lot of credibility on modding. How open is this game to modding?

Alex: Modding? Let's say like this: the modders will be extremely happy with Silent Hunter 5. It's quite a bit more open than the previous, and you surely will find some nice surprises.

Subsim: That sounds good. Any kind of construction kits?

Alex: Not really, the file types will be more open.


Do you think they got sued by Ubi?

:hmmm:

.

[Webster]

Explain it to SHV Devs
(from their interview to Subsim LINK (http://www.goarmy.eu/board77-pc-spiele/592572-silent-hunter-v/index2.html)):



Do you think they got sued by Ubi?

:hmmm:

.


ok so where's the question ??? :06: are you trying to imply the devs made the game more moddable in some dark secret back room without ubi knowing about it :har:

no i dont think ubi sued the devs for doing what they were allowed to do with ubi's permission and blessing so the game would be more appealing.

[Diopos]

ok so where's the question ??? :06: are you trying to imply the devs made the game more moddable in some dark secret back room without ubi knowing about it :har:

no i dont think ubi sued the devs for doing what they were allowed to do with ubi's permission and blessing so the game would be more appealing.

Exactly, moding is part of the game. UBI decided so. Everyone can, purchase, play and mod the game. Devs included. As long as they don't mess around with the hard coded stuff, I see no probem. Heck, we don't know if they're already doing it!


.

[JU_88]

Explain it to SHV Devs
(from their interview to Subsim LINK (http://www.goarmy.eu/board77-pc-spiele/592572-silent-hunter-v/index2.html)):



Do you think they got sued by Ubi?

:hmmm:

.

So.... Ubi would sue themselves?
Oh come on... next they will be banning their own products :haha:

[SteamWake]

So.... Ubi would sue themselves?
Oh come on... next they will be banning their own products :haha:

Wait he may be on to something here... :haha:

[Webster]

Exactly, moding is part of the game. UBI decided so. Everyone can, purchase, play and mod the game. Devs included. As long as they don't mess around with the hard coded stuff, I see no probem. Heck, we don't know if they're already doing it!


.


i never said the devs CANT make mods for the game i only said they dont because it "could" cause issues with ubi that "may" effect their work environment especially if it involved anything thought to be proprietary or in house secrets about the game.

if your job and reputation as keeping trade secrets goes was on the line would you put your name on a mod and release it to the public? i dont think so

this is why the devs will help with advice when they can just as they have done with sh3 and sh4 and they ARE helping with advice for some modders of sh5 but dont expect them to create and release mods for you.

[Stealth Hunter]

I really considered getting Silent Hunter 5 at one point, but now it's just like... what's the point? We're never going to see any new content or anything now that the devs have been switched over to other projects, and we'll probably never see another game in the series. And now that the Grey Wolves team has pretty much faded away, there's no hope of modders coming to the rescue.

All we can do now is go back and relive the glory days with SH4 and SH3.

This is just like what happened with Dynamix's old Red Baron franchise. But at least with it, it had some GREAT modding potential that was not wasted by the community. And at least their final game, 3D, went out with a bang (one that lasted for YEARS after its release). Revenge of the Jastas, Full Canvas Jacket, etc.

And it's not just because Ubisoft is terrible at producing decent simulations anymore that all this that we've built up over the years is falling apart- it's also tied in with the times. People aren't as fascinated with simulations as they used to be.

We are, alas, a dying breed of gamers, gentlemen. And it seems that an end is finally in sight, unfortunately.

How much longer will our community here last I wonder.

[TheDarkWraith]

you obviously haven't checked out the SH5 MODS forum. SH5 is a COMPLETELY different game with mods. And we are just getting started with it ;)

[WarlordATF]

The problem with games these days is its all about the profit. Go back 10-20 years and games were made my people with a true passion for it. I'm not saying that the Devs don't have a passion for SHV, but the suits who give the orders don't allow them to actually complete the game.Now these companys that were tiny back then are major corporations and thats never a good thing when it comes to product quality.

Look at the old games, DOOM,SH1,Duke Nukem ect. These were highly polished games before release and patches were the rare exception. Now its all about bottom lines and carved in stone release dates. If a product is not ready they still ship it and promise to fix it in patches and we foolishly allow this by accepting it. If someone offered you a TV that only got 3 channels you would probably buy one somewhere else.

I Think UBI was kind of shocked that alot of us would not accept a half finished product and refused to buy SHV. They took this to mean that the subsim market was dead, when the reality of the situation is players are getting fed up with unfinished games with DRM that only hurts honest players. If any company out there were to release a complete and good subsim it would sell and do pretty well.

[Axeman3d]

Most of what you say is perfectly true, accountants have taken over from bedroom programmers and we get the progams we are willing to pay for. I for one was one of the guys who refused to pay £35 for a half finished product in the hope that the devs and talented amatuers would fix it in a year or two. We also have to remember that any sim market is going to be a relatively small fraction of the total gaming market, so these guys will no doubt be all the more cocky as they are the only game in town. There are not many companies willing to put the time in to code a hard-core simulation appealing to a few thousand fans instead of knocking out mass market console fodder.

[Pintea]

Chances of expansion and further development are zero. The Dev Team has been moved on to other projects.

Even if the dev team hadn't been moved (or left Ubi) and they were still working on it, the game code has reached a level of complexity and depth (and bad writing and hacking) that I don't think any dev can fully grasp.

This leads to the almost impossible task of adding new features (or even fixing bugs !) without generating a few other bugs without knowing !
This is one of the reason the game has so many bugs today.

Without a clean start, no qualitative add-on or sequel would be possible in my opinion. But then again, a clean start would require much more time and resources than Ubi would be willing to allocate for such a niche game.
So even if an add-on will be made, expect a hurried up hacked buggy game.

[dcb]

So even if an add-on will be made, expect a hurried up hacked buggy game.

Coming from you, this really sounds like the epitaph of the series, a confirmation that there's nothing to expect in the future from UBI.:dead:
Thanks for everything you devs have done and sorry you weren't able/allowed to do more.

[SkyBaron]

Even if the dev team hadn't been moved (or left Ubi) and they were still working on it, the game code has reached a level of complexity and depth (and bad writing and hacking) that I don't think any dev can fully grasp.

This leads to the almost impossible task of adding new features (or even fixing bugs !) without generating a few other bugs without knowing !
This is one of the reason the game has so many bugs today.

Without a clean start, no qualitative add-on or sequel would be possible in my opinion. But then again, a clean start would require much more time and resources than Ubi would be willing to allocate for such a niche game.
So even if an add-on will be made, expect a hurried up hacked buggy game.


Best post of this thread so far! Agree 100%.

[Marko]

The problem with games these days is its all about the profit. Go back 10-20 years and games were made my people with a true passion for it. I'm not saying that the Devs don't have a passion for SHV, but the suits who give the orders don't allow them to actually complete the game.Now these companys that were tiny back then are major corporations and thats never a good thing when it comes to product quality.

Look at the old games, DOOM,SH1,Duke Nukem ect. These were highly polished games before release and patches were the rare exception. Now its all about bottom lines and carved in stone release dates. If a product is not ready they still ship it and promise to fix it in patches and we foolishly allow this by accepting it. If someone offered you a TV that only got 3 channels you would probably buy one somewhere else.

I Think UBI was kind of shocked that alot of us would not accept a half finished product and refused to buy SHV. They took this to mean that the subsim market was dead, when the reality of the situation is players are getting fed up with unfinished games with DRM that only hurts honest players. If any company out there were to release a complete and good subsim it would sell and do pretty well.

From my point of view the problem that bugged Silent Hunter series it is not really about: polished code, dumb AI , the DRM or whatever. Every software has bugs, or an AI that is stupid like a stone or , on the other hand, godlike and so on.


The real problem is : Silent Hunter has been conceived with the idea of auto-targeting and contacts on activated, everything goes around this, and at some point they put the option to remove the magic red triangle and allow you to try to achieve your goal to sink a ship. And with stock game it is nearly impossible. And everything support this and never changed in all titles.


What is the purpose of a radar that doesn’t work, that gives you the range in kilometer limited to 4 digit? What the purpose to have a graphical mode of the range in a logarithmic scale when u don’t have any tools to be able to measure it, just guess it roughly? What is the purpose of report like this : Captain, radar contact bearing 306, long range. Cool, is it closing ? I have no idea captain, press F5 and check yourself! The attack map, this mysterious tool, what is this about? You can’t overlay it with the other map to check your solution. Plotting is delirious work, the first version of SH3 not even had the bearing tools around the cursors. The first attempt to get an idea to where put a contact on the map was a very home made using the compass rose at the bottom right of the geographical map. Length and height of ships are wrong and so on. There are many other things which make you think that more or less everything is about to press F5 and the button “fire” to shoot.


A real sub simulator start with the opposite idea. Plotting, getting information from your instruments and crew to achieve the best solution in order to sink a ship. Because that is the job of the captain to reach the ability to process data and confirm it with his experience. And you start as a noob captain in the sim and you will get better with time. IFYou don’t have that time or you are in hurry to sink something, well press the auto-targeting and contacts on and go and sink.


At this stage SH series is an hybrid between a shooter and a simulator and misses both of them. It is not fast enough as a shooter and has not enough accuracy as a simulator . For this, I don’t even wanna see an expansion not even a new simulator that follow the modern idea of HASTE as a backbone. Let things be what they are, not try to bridge two worlds that have nothing in common.

All that is about the stock games, you guys of SubSim have helped this games to be what it should be.

THANKS to you all

Marko

[janh]

Even if the dev team hadn't been moved (or left Ubi) and they were still working on it, the game code has reached a level of complexity and depth (and bad writing and hacking) that I don't think any dev can fully grasp.

This leads to the almost impossible task of adding new features (or even fixing bugs !) without generating a few other bugs without knowing !
This is one of the reason the game has so many bugs today.

Without a clean start, no qualitative add-on or sequel would be possible in my opinion. But then again, a clean start would require much more time and resources than Ubi would be willing to allocate for such a niche game.
So even if an add-on will be made, expect a hurried up hacked buggy game.


I would suggest to leave such kind of assessments to the people who really know the game engine and the source code... It is pointless to discuss something you don't know, or did you ever see it?

[THE_MASK]

I would suggest to leave such kind of assessments to the people who really know the game engine and the source code... It is pointless to discuss something you don't know, or did you ever see it?This person is a dev .

[Ducimus]

I would suggest to leave such kind of assessments to the people who really know the game engine and the source code... It is pointless to discuss something you don't know, or did you ever see it?

Aside from sober's statement, most anyone in IT that is involved with a product that is continually being developed and refined over the period of years, could tell you nearly the same thing.

Development is done by many people, and people leave for one reason or another. With their departure, someone has to come in behind them at some point and figure out what was done. When it was a year or two after that programmer has left, it becomes a bit harder to figure out, and not every programmer thinks, codes, or comments the same way. The older it is, the more people have worked on it, the more muddled it becomes.

Whats really interesting is when something works, and nobody can figure out why, but they do know is if they change something, it breaks. :rotfl2:

[Madox58]

This person is a dev .
Didn't read what was posted did He?
:nope:

[Capt.Warner]

What a bummer... an expansion would be nice :wah:

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by janh
I would suggest to leave such kind of assessments to the people who really know the game engine and the source code... It is pointless to discuss something you don't know, or did you ever see it?
This person is a dev .
:har:

Love when people come in without reading anything and bash devs or anyone else making informed, constructive or respectful posts.

[janh]

Love when people come in without reading anything and bash devs or anyone else making informed, constructive or respectful posts.

And I surely love you dude... Just not today!

[janh]

Didn't read what was posted did He?

Hmmh, can't find the statement where he identifies himself as an Ubi Dev... Weird. Must be a previous post I keep overlooking. Anyway, if he is a SHV dev, then is statement of course is valid as he would know the actual source.

Somehow I was expecting just another "SHV can only be crap"... yeller behind that statement. Sorry guy.

[elanaiba]

Pintea is a dev indeed. He worked on SH5. He's also a doer, more preocuppied with solving things rather than waving his name and dev status around ;)

I think you can find lots of useful information posted by him in the modders section.

[Stiebler]

According to Pintea (acknowledged by Elanaiba as one of the devs for SH5):
Even if the dev team hadn't been moved (or left Ubi) and they were still working on it, the game code has reached a level of complexity and depth (and bad writing and hacking) that I don't think any dev can fully grasp. [...] Without a clean start, no qualitative add-on or sequel would be possible in my opinion. The only conclusion one can draw from these statements is that there was *never* any serious intention to extend SH5 beyond one type of U-boat and a war ending in 1943. According to Pintea, it would not have been possible.

Stiebler.

[Takeda Shingen]

That's what a lot of us on SubSim have been trying to tell people for a long time; the Devs are good guys. Silent Hunter 5 has problems, but they are still here helping the modders and supplying answers to the community at large despite the fact that they are in no way required to do so. These people are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. We ask that you please consider that before going after them in the future.

[elanaiba]

One other thing to note about Pintea is that he's no longer an employee of Ubi... so he's here on his own accord, in his own free time.

[Zedi]

That's what a lot of us on SubSim have been trying to tell people for a long time; the Devs are good guys. Silent Hunter 5 has problems, but they are still here helping the modders and supplying answers to the community at large despite the fact that they are in no way required to do so. These people are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. We ask that you please consider that before going after them in the future.

Sorry, but where is the section of subsim where devs help those who wanna mod? I just can't find the place.

And regarding the "These people are here because they want to be, not because they have to be." ... interesting that Ubi is one of the few or even the only game company where the devs dont talk with the fans. Even Blizzard who has millions and millions of customers have a dev team that answer and have a dialog with the community. Every time we put a question directed to them, they just vanish.

Sorry but I dont feel the same. The devs are not active in any way here, except Elanaiba who in very rare occasions post half answers.

[Takeda Shingen]

Sorry, but where is the section of subsim where devs help those who wanna mod? I just can't find the place.

Yes, it is called the user Private Messaging feature. On SubSim.com it is accessed from the individual user's CP located in the upper left of the screen.

As for the rest, the Silent Hunter series is not World of Warcraft. The series does not have ongoing development. As for 'vanishing' and not being active, just because they are not talking to you does not mean that the wheels are not turning.

[DarkFish]

That's what a lot of us on SubSim have been trying to tell people for a long time; the Devs are good guys. Silent Hunter 5 has problems, but they are still here helping the modders and supplying answers to the community at large despite the fact that they are in no way required to do so. These people are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. We ask that you please consider that before going after them in the future.Aye:salute:
If you ask me, the devs are the greatest people there are. They really care for the game. Unlike their bosses over at Ubi:nope:

[scrapser]

I didn't buy SH5 and probably never will. I did like SH3 and to a lesser extent...SH4 (mainly because it takes place in my personal favorite theater but didn't really improve over SH3...in short a disappointment of sorts).

I work as a systems analyst/applications developer for "in house" custom software applications of the business variety. My user base is anywhere from a handfull to a few hundred people. The software I use is of the RAD (rapid application development) variety.

You would think in this tiny, microscopic world I work in (compared to the entertainment market) that my programming life would get boring real fast. I have been working on bugs in many of the programs for nearly 10 years and they still show up on a fairly regular basis...sometimes because the data structure changes and sometimes because enhancements break things that were previously working...and sometimes they reveal themselves due to extremely rare combinations of events that show them to have been dormant, waiting for the right circumstances to raise their head.

If this is what I experience, just imagine what the DEVS experienced who built the SH series.

I appreciate their efforts and those of the modding community and they have my respect.

[Zedi]

Yes, it is called the user Private Messaging feature. On SubSim.com it is accessed from the individual user's CP located in the upper left of the screen.

...

Mine dont work. Asked Neal to be so kind and change my username, got no response at all. So this PM system maybe is restricted by access level. Anyway, my point is that I see no serious reason why all the talk is behind the curtains and the forum is kept only for general talks. These informations should be public as a reference for everybody who seek knowledge. Is the main reason why people come to subsim and not on ubi's forum which is completely useless.

Also I see not harm in the knowledge they can share, nobody will ask about how to break the drm crap and other illegal stuff. All we need is a public share of knowledge and know-how about tools that can help moders to improve/mod the game.Why is this something that must be kept behind the curtains? In the end, this is what will keep the sell charts alive... better the game will be, more and more will buy it.

[Sailor Steve]

Mine dont work. Asked Neal to be so kind and change my username, got no response at all. So this PM system maybe is restricted by access level.
No, that's not it. I've sometimes waited weeks before getting a response, and sometimes had to PM Neal several times. He happens to be extremely busy most of the time. For a name change you might also try email: subsim@subsim.com

[janh]

All we need is a public share of knowledge and know-how about tools that can help moders to improve/mod the game.Why is this something that must be kept behind the curtains? In the end, this is what will keep the sell charts alive... better the game will be, more and more will buy it.

I agree with the last part. What comes to my mind is the "wiki" site that a few well-selling games with big fan base have, for example the series Operation Flashpoint/Armed Assault/ARMA2 (try google for your own impression). Their modding wiki is quite exhaustive, and this is to my knowledge the most flexible modding engine in any simulation. It has even been augmented by sites from other groups within the huge fan base, such as Dev-Heaven.

I think an exhaustive wiki site that describe all the features, aspects and details of modding SHIII, IV, V would surely be a lot of work, and might only work out with the help of the many excellent modders present here. But it would be a big bonus for the community, and possibility also a selling factor that would enhance the lifetime of the title. Though with the future of SH being unsure, it may well be too late for such a project.

[DeadlyWolf]

Personally, i think SH5 will be the last submarine simulation released for many years to come. Their just isn't a big enough market for it this day and age.
Are you kidding??
SH5 could have sold tons of copies if not for the retarded decision-making by Ubisoft, both in the drm, the shameful state in which the game was released, and the total lack of support afterwards.
IMO all the people here that loved SH3\GWX should not buy a Ubisoft game ever again.

I've recently come across this, regarding the incredibly healthy state of pc gaming even within the big companies. Look, at Ubisoft (they even list the revenue in % and not in $:har:)

The PC gaming week made me think about something... it's the whole "PC gaming is dead" debate.

People basicly throw this claim into a discussion but hardly have any evidence to back up their claim besides "there are no games for PC", "there is no money in PC gaming because of piracy" or some old NPD sales report. So i figured there must be a way to bring some actual facts to this discussion.

These facts can be easily obtained, trough the annual finnancial reports by publishers. So i did look up some reports and the results are rather suprising. That's why i'm gonna share them with you people here:
(All $ numbers are MILLIONS)

Electronics Arts

Link to the report: [files.shareholder.com (http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ERTS/1052959816x0x385991/B1DCA06E-E734-4C65-ABA8-417B652313D3/Electronic_Arts-2010.pdf)]

Important information is on page 184 of the adobe document.

Net revenue by platform

Xbox360 - $868
PS3 - $771
Wii - $570
PC - $687

As you can see the PC made even more net revenue then the Wii did. It's within shooting range of the PS3.

Activision Blizzard

Link to the report: [files.shareholder.com (http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ACTI/985502283x0x378110/4212eb1e-fd74-47f7-8abf-2de6ad88b9d3/ATVI_2009_Annual_Report_-_FINAL2.pdf)]

Important information is on page 27 of the adobe document.

Net revenue by platform

Xbox360 - $857
PS3 - $584
Wii - $584
PC - $1.412

It should be noted that this is the Report of 2009, all other publisher reports are from 2010, the one for activision 2010 isn't released yet afaik. So it doesn't include Starcraft 2, but it does include Modern Warfare 2. As you can see WoW is hard at work. The money generated by WoW alone dwarfs any other platform by far.

Also MW2 had a huge impact on the console net revenue, boosting it considerably. For comparisson here are the 2008 numbers that don't include MW2:

Xbox360 - $362
PS3 - $241
Wii - $407
PC - $1.251

Without a mega release like MW2 the WoW/PC revenue alone surpasses that of ALL consoles combined.

Take Two Interactive

Link to the report:
[phx.corporate-ir.net (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NjIxMjl8Q2hpbGRJRD. ..=&t=1)]

Important information is on page 23 of the adobe document.

Net revenue by platform

Xbox360 - $171
PS3 - $155
Wii - $5
PC - $10

That's Red Dead Redemption hard at work, which didn't get a PC release.
The PC once again generated more net revenue then the Wii did.
Without such a mega seller the platforms are way closer to each other. For comparisson reasons here are the numbers from 2009 where no huge console exclusive title like RDR got released.

Xbox360 - $30
PS3 - $11
Wii - $15
PC - $13

As you can see, without a huge console exclusive getting released the PC holds up pretty well. Who knows how the numbers for 2010 would have looked if they actually released RDR for the PC too...

Ubisoft

Link to the report:
[www.ubisoftgroup.com (http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/2306.pdf)]

Important information is on page 16 of the adobe document.

Sales by platform in %.
(sadly there is no net revenue in $ values)

Xbox360 - 22%
PS3 - 23%
Wii - 26%
PC - 8%

Okay doesn't look that great over at Ubisoft. But the question is, why? Hasn't Ubisoft been the one who invented their awesome new DRM to combat piracy? Doesn't look like it worked that well... to the contrary i think it actually backfired. Also they make the majority of their money trugh Wii casual titles, so it could also be a problem with their overall software lineup.

Another Publisher i wanted to add had been Bethesda Softworks (ZeniMax Media Inc.). But sadly i couldn't find any annual finanical reports from them. If you find them feel free to share them.

But it's not far stretched to assume that the PC side of things don't look that bad at ZeniMax either. Considering that that Bethesda has a tradition in strong PC games, they also have Arkane studios, Splash Damage and the newly aquired id Software which traditionaly are also very strong in the PC sector.

So here you have it, these are actual facts about the market situation. And they clearly show there is TONS of money to be made on the PC. It's the task of publishers/developers to tab into that potential and actually make that money.

And before anybody brings this up: I'm well aware that EA has The Sims, Acti/Blizzard has WoW which are big hitters. But as the examples of MW2/RDR show that the console market also depends very heavily on a few very big franchises beeing sold. So i don't see that as an valid counter-point.

Thanks for reading (if you got this far) feel free to discuss and feel free to link to this comment the next time some troll comes along going "there is no money in PC gaming herp derp". You can find the article here: http://kotaku.com/5677764/

Personally, I can only hope Ubisoft to go bankrupt and sell his intellectual properties to others.

PS: uhm the quote above was way too old :D, consider it as a mere inspiration for the post ^^

[janh]

PS: uhm the quote above was way too old :D, consider it as a mere inspiration for the post ^^

Those are 2009-10 numbers, so quite up to date. I would also expect a correlation between Ubi's decline in PC sales and it's pioneering role in ever worse DRM solutions. But so many other factors, from actual product quality (or buggy 1st releases and related bad press), decline of the customer group of "complex sim/strategy" fans and growing group of "casual" gamers (with little interest to read through thick manuals/learn complex interfaces/games), and the companies shift to "cheaper, simpler" console games play into that as well.

Any conclusion on that would, however, be as unsupported as statements like "the PC market will die". Maybe the PC market will see a decline for simple titles without higher complexity, which can be realized on a console without keyboard etc., or appeal more to casual gamers. I doubt anybody looked at that in detail. But I would expect that for complex simulations, or games with complex backgrounds/rules/physics etc, the PC will always be the platform of choice. Maybe with the number of customers for this market declining, we will see less of those titles in the future, but hopefully more quality. And maybe some "garage-company" now and then will throw in a big surprise, just as it was in the past 20 years.

[DeadlyWolf]

Janh I meant the quoting of Decimus.

Anyway I think you are far too pessimist in regards to the "commercial appeailing" of simulators. I mean, take a look only at the *subscribed* people on subsim, almost sixty thousand. Is really anything else to say?

SH3, thanks to its incredible community of modders, had maybe the larger group of followers a simulator ever had. And look at how those ****ing retards take advantage of it. I sincerely hope all of them will lose their job as soon as possible.

[Shiplord]

Anyway I think you are far too pessimist in regards to the "commercial appeailing" of simulators. I mean, take a look only at the *subscribed* people on subsim, almost sixty thousand. Is really anything else to say?

Even if every 60.000 would buy that product, a publisher nowadays not nearly reached the break-even point with these sales, so that his investment in the development pays off.

[Pablo]

Well,

Over 5.6 million copies of Call of Duty: Black Ops were purchased on the first day, and Activision brought in $360 million. (http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/11/11/call-of-duty-black-ops-record-360-million/).

Anyone care to guess how many units of Silent Hunter V have been sold at any price since its release, and how that compares to CoD:BO? It's not even close.

If the numbers were closer, you might see an expansion. As it is, probably not..... :(

Pablo

[Jimbuna]

That's what a lot of us on SubSim have been trying to tell people for a long time; the Devs are good guys. Silent Hunter 5 has problems, but they are still here helping the modders and supplying answers to the community at large despite the fact that they are in no way required to do so. These people are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. We ask that you please consider that before going after them in the future.

Yeah that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[col_Kurtz]

If we the customers contact them by e-mail, snail mail and by phone, that should show them that profit is in this market. Money always talks louder.

Sorry :)

[tomoose]

As has been mentioned UBI certainly seems to have blown it with the whole DRM debacle (the online only aspect certainly didn't help either).

Having said that, as much as that company makes most of us cringe these days it is still the same company that gave us IL2 (my personal favourite flightsim), Splinter Cell and Far Cry. I think they were involved in the Rainbow Six series also although THAT franchise IMHO thundered in after Rogue Spear as it attempted to cash in with the console crowd (I get nauseous thinking about Rainbow Six: Lockdown). It went from an intelligent, tactical shooter to the electronic equivalent of whack-a-mole!!! SHUDDER!!!!:nope:

It should be noted that most of these games are pre-DRM and pre-SH5 so what happened? Greed? Incompetence? Both?:hmmm:

[DeadlyWolf]

Even if every 60.000 would buy that product, a publisher nowadays not nearly reached the break-even point with these sales, so that his investment in the development pays off.
You do know there aren't AAA titles only, do you? Do you have ANY idea of the market simulators have, in comparison to other genres?
And you do read "only" beside the subsim subscribers number, indicating the possible buyers are much more than that, do you? :-?

And it's also curious reading tomoose quote the most successful series of this company, and then think how in one way or another they succeeded to ruin every single one of them.

[PL_Andrev]

I'm sure we will see any more games like Silent Hunter. Maybe it will be not produced by Ubisoft, but it certainly appears.

Look for Akella which their PT-Boats, or Square Enix with their Battlestations series. These are really good games, which already lacks enough to be ideal. And of course Ubisoft with their 'almost perfect' Silent Hunter series.
The only question is why Ubisoft "shots to its leg" and released a product that goes backwards in development. I would prefer the new SH4 with better graphics and a dynamic campaign for the Americans and Germans.
Maybe they plan it as add-on but they hold it for a small sale.

Now, Ubisoft or someone else will release a similar product in future. Maybe it will be 'DD: Knights of the Sea" or reactivated 'Battlestations: crash dive' In fact Ubisoft has ready game to next re-release, opened game with multiplayer and mission editor so Ubi at the best position. But this is close market is only one free chair for winner.
And the winner takes all.

[tomoose]

Deadlywolf; I don't think IL2 is ruined at all. It's an excellent product and still going strong although I think that is thanks to the outstanding support from Oleg Maddox and certainly NOT from UBI. That seems to be the exception unfortunately. I can't speak to FC2 as I haven't played it but the buzz surrounding it didn't seem to last long. The original Far Cry was a definitely a decent game. The less said about R6 the better.

The one area IMHO that UBI should have had the devs correct in almost all of these titles is the online play. With the exception of IL2 I found that even trying to get online with almost all the titles was a royal PITA!! Talk about not being user-friendly or intuitive!!! Sheesh!:-?

UBI rhymes with "If only...." LOL:D

[Seeadler]

Ubisoft reports today their fisrt half 2010-11 results:

http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/2350.pdf

Yves Guillemot (Ubisoft CEO) stated:

"Ubisoft is now armed with a balance sheet that is better adapted to the requirements of the industry and we have a solid financial position as well as €280 million committed credit facilities. We are continuing to overhaul our studios roles, operations and structures in order to meet the new challenges in our industry and are focused on offering highly innovative and creative products, as well as on enhancing quality levels, releasing new iterations of our major franchises on a more regular basis, providing gamers with an ever-richer online experience and attracting a constantly growing number of casual gamers. The outstanding efforts of Ubisoft’s teams in these areas will enable us to fully leverage the numerous opportunities coming up in the High Definition, Casual and Online segments."

[Diopos]

...
The outstanding efforts of Ubisoft’s teams in these areas will enable us to fully leverage the numerous opportunities coming up in the High Definition, Casual and Online segments."

I would prefer Medium Definition, Deep and Home Alone (offline) Segments. Boy, UBI certainly tossed me out of the window! :D

Anyway, there is always chess ...:hmmm:

.

[Marko]

I'm sure we will see any more games like Silent Hunter. Maybe it will be not produced by Ubisoft, but it certainly appears.




Hmmmm maybe.

Anyway the only things that nowadays the industry is able to simulate it is you pretending to make exercise in front of you screen with your Wii, which personally I consider an aberration.

[Alex]

@ Seeadler :
highly innovative and creative products
=

http://b.imagehost.org/0178/kik.png
Way to redefine a few words, I guess. Hail ubisoft.