[REL] IJN Radar Fix for TMO

[tater]

Three versions included. One for regular TMO2, the other is the easier AI version. The last goes after the beta updated version.

All go after TMO+TMO patches (might mess up that beta patch just released), before other mods.

http://www.filefront.com/17377544/IJN_Radar_Fix_for_TMO2_v1.rar

This mod corrects the Type 13 radar to only work vs aircraft, and the type 21 to be dual purpose. Right now the 21 is heavily skewed to not work well vs subs (set minheight to 6m), might need some tweaking after testing. Maybe lower the minheight to 4m or so. I'd like it to get the shears, anyway.

Perhaps ducimus could chime in, I haven't messed with it much, and the sensitivity and area settings depend a lot on the cfg settings. this mod only changes the the minheight value on those 2 radars, nothing else.

Note, this is not needed for straight TMO as straight TMO ships don't use the type 13 radar. That said, the type 21 is also set to zero height, so I have no idea if it is calibrated to only detect a large ship at 20nm as it did in RL.

[Bubblehead1980]

Three versions included. One for regular TMO2, the other is the easier AI version. The last goes after the beta updated version.

All go after TMO+TMO patches (might mess up that beta patch just released), before other mods.

http://www.filefront.com/17377544/IJN_Radar_Fix_for_TMO2_v1.rar

This mod corrects the Type 13 radar to only work vs aircraft, and the type 21 to be dual purpose. Right now the 21 is heavily skewed to not work well vs subs (set minheight to 6m), might need some tweaking after testing.

Perhaps ducimus could chime in, I haven't messed with it much, and the sensitivity and area settings depend a lot on the cfg settings. this mod only changes the the minheight value on those 2 radars, nothing else.


Eh think I may pass, ijn radars pick up player sub just fine lol.

My problem with IJN radar is their too effective in the game.I guess once I figure out S3D and how to put it into a mod for JSGME ill lower their range to around 4-5000 yards...Which radar do the escorts have?

See what confuses me is in some cases such as Tang or Barb(sure there were others but just those ive read about) they were able to get close on convoys with radar equipped escorts and carriers even(Barb sank the Unyo) but subs like USS Jack could not get closer than about 7,000 yards from the Take Ichi Convoy in April 1944 due to their 12 escorts, many of which had radar.Barb and Tang's attacks came later in 44 though.So I think 5,000 yards would be a good compromise, 5,000 yards is a long way to shoot.Jack managed to sink a few ships from 7,000 yards in a night surface attack, really well executed attack with a little luck.,

[tater]

Eh think I may pass, ijn radars pick up player sub just fine lol.

My problem with IJN radar is their too effective in the game.I guess once I figure out S3D and how to put it into a mod for JSGME ill lower their range to around 4-5000 yards...Which radar do the escorts have?

See what confuses me is in some cases such as Tang or Barb(sure there were others but just those ive read about) they were able to get close on convoys with radar equipped escorts and carriers even(Barb sank the Unyo) but subs like USS Jack could not get closer than about 7,000 yards from the Take Ichi Convoy in April 1944 due to their 12 escorts, many of which had radar.Barb and Tang's attacks came later in 44 though.So I think 5,000 yards would be a good compromise, 5,000 yards is a long way to shoot.Jack managed to sink a few ships from 7,000 yards in a night surface attack, really well executed attack with a little luck.,

Huh? This mod REDUCES the IJN radar.

Right now, your game is using an extremely common AIR radar to detect your SUB. This mod turns off the ability for the AIR radar to detect the sub completely.

The type 22 sets are still there, but again, it's an issue of what each escort has installed. Air was a huge concern, so virtually all ships got type 13s—which are mistakenly working on your sub now.

[tater]

Right now I have not yet toughed the minsurface or sensitivity. The latter is set to 0, which means it uses the value in the .cfg file instead.

Ducimus should reply at some point, he groks that better than I do. Crippling the range is not the way to go, it's probably easier to change the surface value from the 1.5m^2 it is set to now, to some larger area. Look at a sub from the front. What is the cross-sectional area? If you set it such that the front cross section is invisible to the radar—just—then from 90 degrees the sub might be detected. Then like fighting active sonar, your aspect starts to really matter.

You can also make the minheight set to a couple meters so that the radar ignores the bits below that. This makes the visible area to the sensor smaller.

The type 21 also rotates (least in RSRDC, since I made them rotate :)) So if the radar node itself is a daughter (I need to check if I did this) of the radar, then the detection time will be very short as it rotates... Hmmm, need to mess with that—gives another variable to play with.

Heck, I could do this with the 22 as well, but it needs a test.

When duci gets here this conversation might get more interesting... :)

[Bubblehead1980]

Huh? This mod REDUCES the IJN radar.

Right now, your game is using an extremely common AIR radar to detect your SUB. This mod turns off the ability for the AIR radar to detect the sub completely.

The type 22 sets are still there, but again, it's an issue of what each escort has installed. Air was a huge concern, so virtually all ships got type 13s—which are mistakenly working on your sub now.


Ah got ya, I misunderstood it, thanks:D Ill try it out.Hopefully this evening Ill get some time.

[Ducimus]

I don't remember using the Type13 radar. Check the units SNS file. I vaugely recall changing to type 22 on some units and changing inclusion date for the radar because an airsearch radar is a moot point within context of game mechanics.

[Bubblehead1980]

Right now I have not yet toughed the minsurface or sensitivity. The latter is set to 0, which means it uses the value in the .cfg file instead.

Ducimus should reply at some point, he groks that better than I do. Crippling the range is not the way to go, it's probably easier to change the surface value from the 1.5m^2 it is set to now, to some larger area. Look at a sub from the front. What is the cross-sectional area? If you set it such that the front cross section is invisible to the radar—just—then from 90 degrees the sub might be detected. Then like fighting active sonar, your aspect starts to really matter.

You can also make the minheight set to a couple meters so that the radar ignores the bits below that. This makes the visible area to the sensor smaller.

The type 21 also rotates (least in RSRDC, since I made them rotate :)) So if the radar node itself is a daughter (I need to check if I did this) of the radar, then the detection time will be very short as it rotates... Hmmm, need to mess with that—gives another variable to play with.

Heck, I could do this with the 22 as well, but it needs a test.

When duci gets here this conversation might get more interesting... :)


So changing the range is not the way to go? I just want to be able to get withing say 5,000 yards so can pull off night surface attack on convoy with radar equipped escorts/warships.Always drove me batty cant pull off a night surface attack after about October 44, esp in the shallows along the China coast were very few subs would dive(I believe the Barb did, rather risky)

[tater]

So changing the range is not the way to go? I just want to be able to get withing say 5,000 yards so can pull off night surface attack on convoy with radar equipped escorts/warships.Always drove me batty cant pull off a night surface attack after about October 44, esp in the shallows along the China coast were very few subs would dive(I believe the Barb did, rather risky)

You could, but there might be a better way to do it. Changing the range is brute force :) Detection is a sort of die roll every X time units based on different parameters including range. It;s not like you are auto-detected at max range, that's just the range where you have a CHANCE of being detected.

The goal should be realistic outcomes. That might means sometimes they see you, sometimes they don't.

[tater]

I don't remember using the Type13 radar. Check the units SNS file. I vaugely recall changing to type 22 on some units and changing inclusion date for the radar because an airsearch radar is a moot point within context of game mechanics.

Yeah, but it matters for anyone using RSRDC where the type 13 is indeed installed (given all the battles, I think lurker wanted the planes to be reacted to).

[Armistead]

Tater,

So I'm clear, if you're running RSRD, do we need this mod or doe's RSRD already use these settings.

I'm more interested in angle, running decks awash. I think you chimed in the other thread, but engines will engage at 28ft, so wonder how that has effect, not only in angle, because you're lower. Course in rougher waters, hard to hold and you still have to adjust as the game seems to surface you over time instead of holding depths in this range.

The reason being, on the surface I was easily detected with radar. Going decks awash with a narrow angle, I think I got to within visual before I was spotted.

[tater]

You need this with TMO and RSRDC. With TMO campaign, then looks like no (ducimus said that he simply didn't use the type 13 in the sns since it is irrelevant to submarines).

Type 13s ARE in the .sns files for RSRDC ships, however, so it needs this fix—but not for RFB which fixes the type 13.

So this can go before or after RSRDC, doesn't matter, as it doesn't mess with this one file anyway.

If the Type 22 is still doing too well, then it might be interesting to try altering the minheight, and minsurface values (I'd tend to want to keep historical max ranges in case it matters for surface combats in the campaign—course it might not matter in the least).

Ducimus is the guy to explain this, he's forgotten more about SH4 sensors than I ever knew. :)

[Ducimus]

Ducimus is the guy to explain this, he's forgotten more about SH4 sensors....

You got that part right. :O: Since i might be looking at files tonight anyway, ill try and remember to verify what I did with the type 13, but i swear i remember tossing it thinking it wasn't needed.

At the least, not knowing what the file settings are. I'd take the min height off of an SD radar, and comparing that to the min height on the type 13. Since we KNOW SD radar doesn't detect surface contacts, id assume to use at least that number for min height.

Then compare surface factor between the two. THat dictates how large an object it can detect, and also effects how soon your detected. Assuming max range is the same.... A sensor with a small surface factor will detect you much sooner then a sensor with a large surface factor.

edit:
Yup, looks like i simply removed the Type 13 outright from the SNS files. I didn't even bother with it since Jap ships aren't really under constant thread of air attack.

[Bubblehead1980]

You could, but there might be a better way to do it. Changing the range is brute force :) Detection is a sort of die roll every X time units based on different parameters including range. It;s not like you are auto-detected at max range, that's just the range where you have a CHANCE of being detected.

The goal should be realistic outcomes. That might means sometimes they see you, sometimes they don't.


I agree, could handle sometimes being detected sometimes not.Thing is with current settings(havent tried your patch yet) they always detect you if you get within i think its 7 miles or so.I remember in stock it was 9, I was always like WTF.No hit or miss are game currently is.That is why I wanted to lower the effective range.

I could live with a sometimes they detect you, sometimes they dont IF a reasonable amount of time they wont detect player sub.Really takes away from gameplay when you cant pull off a common move such as a night surface attack from Oct 44 until end of war...

[Armistead]

Can't wait to finish this patrol and try it. I'm chasing the Yamato now. I have cams and contacts off, but no doubt the DDs are picking me up from 8 plus nms. I'll try to test angles and running decks awash. Be great if running decks awash with a narrow profile to be able to do night surface attacks from at least 2000 yards in fog.

It may have got answered, but does the difference in moon size effect visuals...full moon being worse case of course.

[Bubblehead1980]

Can't wait to finish this patrol and try it. I'm chasing the Yamato now. I have cams and contacts off, but no doubt the DDs are picking me up from 8 plus nms. I'll try to test angles and running decks awash. Be great if running decks awash with a narrow profile to be able to do night surface attacks from at least 2000 yards in fog.

It may have got answered, but does the difference in moon size effect visuals...full moon being worse case of course.


YES.Ive noticed the moon size does affect visuals.If a full moon, they are much more likely to see you than on a dark night with no moon or quarter moon.Also, attack from the side where the convoy is silhouetted by the moon or the sun if at dawn/dusk, ive found this affects visuals for both of you.Even when the moon is out, if you dont get too close and move slowly, presenting a small AOB, zero if possible(use rudder to slowly turn as the convoy moves along until you get desired angle for the shot) attack with the moon in front of you, behind the target, it illuminates them , but not you.Common sense when you think about it, it does affect how they spot you.

Id play with contacts off if could keep contacts for aircraft and the RWR only.Or if had a buzzer or the crew would inform you of radar signals being detected(bc in rl the RWR was non directional) but until then ill keep contacts on.

[Bubblehead1980]

Tater,

This deals with RSRD's radar issues right? Says for TMO, just making sure it goes over RSRD's radar.Im running TMO and RSRD

[Armistead]

I asked the same, see post 11, but you do need it.

[Armistead]

YES.Ive noticed the moon size does affect visuals.If a full moon, they are much more likely to see you than on a dark night with no moon or quarter moon.Also, attack from the side where the convoy is silhouetted by the moon or the sun if at dawn/dusk, ive found this affects visuals for both of you.Even when the moon is out, if you dont get too close and move slowly, presenting a small AOB, zero if possible(use rudder to slowly turn as the convoy moves along until you get desired angle for the shot) attack with the moon in front of you, behind the target, it illuminates them , but not you.Common sense when you think about it, it does affect how they spot you.

Id play with contacts off if could keep contacts for aircraft and the RWR only.Or if had a buzzer or the crew would inform you of radar signals being detected(bc in rl the RWR was non directional) but until then ill keep contacts on.

If you want aircraft to show, ships not, then this mod corrects that. I use it and love it.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2789

It is common sense and I play it that way, but wondering just how well it's programmed and how. As you stated a low moon gives much more reflection than a high moon, so wonder if that's programmed or just settings for each moon phase.

Hope someone could give us more info on the moon..Just wondering it adjusting it's values could help with night surface attacks.

Tater is really adding some much needed adjusting...long waited for.

[Armistead]

One last thing...I've asked this question many times and never gotten an answer.

Running the subs surface radar, how well is it picked up by the IJN? During Enwrights attack on the Shinano the JP's tell how they picked up Enwright's radar use. I believe they could tell vague distance, but it wasn't directional. I also assume only capital ships would carry this. It seems with TMO they have directional ability, but no way to know without APR to know if it's surface radar or picking your transmissions up. I would think your radar transmission could be picked up much further than surface radar.

Often when DD's chase me, I will cut radar off and turn and run. Later cut it back on and they're headed back, so either I ran far enough to escape surface radar or cutting off my radar they lost me.

So how is this set up in game?
What ships have this ability?
Doe's the intermittent function really work?
Distance, directional or not.

This really would be some helpful knowledge, moreso early war. If they can't pick it up, then be smart just to run your radar non stop.

[Bubblehead1980]

One last thing...I've asked this question many times and never gotten an answer.

Running the subs surface radar, how well is it picked up by the IJN? During Enwrights attack on the Shinano the JP's tell how they picked up Enwright's radar use. I believe they could tell vague distance, but it wasn't directional. I also assume only capital ships would carry this. It seems with TMO they have directional ability, but no way to know without APR to know if it's surface radar or picking your transmissions up. I would think your radar transmission could be picked up much further than surface radar.

Often when DD's chase me, I will cut radar off and turn and run. Later cut it back on and they're headed back, so either I ran far enough to escape surface radar or cutting off my radar they lost me.

So how is this set up in game?
What ships have this ability?
Doe's the intermittent function really work?
Distance, directional or not.

This really would be some helpful knowledge, moreso early war. If they can't pick it up, then be smart just to run your radar non stop.


I honestly dont think they can pick up your radar.I think in "the fog of war" you may think youve been detected when they are just making routine patrols.If you play without contacts then you cant use your RWR because for some reason with the US RWR the crew doesnt report radar signals being detected., so possible they have radar and you dont know it.

[Armistead]

It does suck with the APR not showing with contacts off. I'm beginning to think about the most realistic play in the game is cams off, contacts on. The air mod doe's help with the planes.

A nice mod would be have the lines show for sonar, radar, ect, but the ship icons not show. That would be a perfect balance.

Be a shame if their capital ships can't pick up your radar, at least the big boys like the Shinano, BB's and top line carriers. Seems it would at least set the DD's in a search pattern.

[Alert 1]

ya ho wa

[avers]

hi, i cant get this patch it just says file not found?

[Captain Dave]

You can find it here in the downloads section.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4204