[WIP] Optical Targeting Assist, with Omnimeter

[CapnScurvy]

This modification is intended to correct the optical view of targets through the various scopes, enabling a correct reading of height/length dimensions when using the Telemeter markings (the vertical and horizontal hash marks in the scope). This will aid in correct range and angle on bow determinations when using these Telemeter scope marks. An in-game tool called an Omnimeter will be used to help facilitate these findings. Corrected mast heights and added ship length dimensions will be placed in the recognition manual to aid in this process.

The basis of information which I have used for the majority of my reference comes from a once confidential instructional pamphlet entitled Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual found HERE. (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm) It was published in 1950 at a time when the WWII fleet boats were still used as the main ship of the line submarine. Although the whole manual is interesting, Chapter 5 holds the most information on the specific periscope characteristics and the process of turning a targets height/length through Telemeter readings into range and AoB findings. I do admit some of the measurements do not add up when correctly figuring the formulas. For instance on page 5-3 it states We know that at a range of 1000 yards, 17 ½ yards, or 52.5 feet will subtend an angle of 1 degree. To be exact, 1 degree of angle at 1000 yards distance is 52.356 feet. Also, the correct range formula for the Hi Power magnification should read 76.4 not 76.2 (4 x's 19.1= 76.4). Small issues but whoever proof read these manuals should have done a bit better in what they cleared for print. The basic process is correctly laid out, so the information is accurate when using the corrected math formulas.


The overall process of making the modification is to have a working Omnimeter for in-game use, then correcting the optics (scope game views) so an accurate measurement can be obtained with the tool. Next, each ship will have a corrected lead mast head height and ship length dimension added to the Recognition Manual to aid in the two equations of finding target range and angle on bow. The goal is to give a Manual Targeting player the ability to use tools that were authentic and that will help in these determinations.


Omnimeter

A while back I posted images of a working circular Omnimeter (my first attempt) which did indeed work, but at a slight disruption to the in-game functions of the other dials it was linked to. I wasn't entirely happy with the fact that movement of one of the two dials of the Omnimeter also moved the torpedo spread dial. This wasn't too terrible since a good captain would check this dial when setting up the shot and reset it to what he intended. However, I wanted to try and make a tool that resembled the original and would cause a bit less trouble when manipulated. Since modded in-game devices need to be linked in some way to existing game devices I decided a less intrusive process is to have it linked to a little used game tool (the opacity slider of the message box). This allows for a more authentic Omnimeter with fewer disturbances to other game entities.

Below is an image of an Omnimeter that was constructed for the crew of the U.S.S. Cod. You will find a similar device (but not exactly alike) in the Torpedo Fire Control Manual. There was no manufacture that made them, rather the crew usually came up with their own version.



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/CodOmnimeter.jpg


This is my in-game version.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Omnimeter_1.jpg


It is moved about the screen using the message box's capture/drag device. Each slider is independent of the other for correct use. There are a couple of issues with its use. When at the Command Room screen the device seems to want to lock up the mouse when dragging the sliders after a bit of use. The correction is to jump to another station (the Navigation Map or one of the other Periscope stations) and the mouse will return to normal. This will only occur when at the Command Room screen!! Since the only time one will use the Omnimeter is when you're at one of the scope stations (Observation, Attack, and TBT) this really isn't much of a concern. Just keep in mind the correction if you drag up the tool and manipulate the sliders when you're in the Command Room. The second problem is to have the tool lost at the bottom of the screen if you drag it and the message box completely out of sight. The bottom of the screen will not allow you to retrieve the device if the message box is completely gone. The only fix for this is to restart the game from a windows execution. This really isn't too big a problem either since the stock game allows this behavior. Try it, the stock message box will not return if you drag it out of sight at the bottom of the screen and release the mouse capture. Just another game quirk we all live with.


Game Optics

So, the in-game Omnimeter is completed and works well. The next issue is to correct the optics. You may ask, what's wrong with the optics? Well for starters the "magnification" and field of view of the stock game are incorrect. The Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual states on page 5-1, the magnification for the Type II (Observation scope) should be:

High Power 6.0x
Low Power 1.5x

The Type IV (Attack scope) has the same power.


The stock game optics gives us a magnification of:

High Power 4.0x
Low Power 1.0x

Its little wonder the game seemed to have the ships farther away than they should be. I made a modification (Ship Centered, Accuracy Fix or SCAF for short) to help allow a player to use a more visible part of a ship (funnels, flag tops) to measure with the stadimeter because the mast tops were not visible (least what I thought) at normal range finding distances. Having the magnification corrected will allow for a clearer view of the mast top. It's my plan to have all corrected heights return to the main or tallest mast head with this mod. If we can see them better, then lets use them!

To correct the field of view we need to look at the stock view and what it shows. The following image is taken with several stationary ships set in front of a stationary sub. The Akita (at the relative bearing of zero) is 1000 yards away. The range isn't really important, (neither are the other ship distances) but what is important is the field of view between the scopes left and right outer edges. The first image shows the Akita at a relative bearing of 0, using the Low Power magnification. I've drawn a red line on the right hand side to point out the area on the ship we will use to mark the outer right hand field of view position. This point on the stationary adjacent ship has to be used, open water doesn't leave you with much of a reference point. It's just about centered on the super structure of the freighter


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/StockLow_xCentered.jpg


The next image has us moving the scope to the right, placing the center cross hair on the point we referenced.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/StockLow_xright.jpg


Reading the relative bearing of the stock game, the outer FoV is approximately 20 degrees from center. When you add the left side, the total FoV is approximately 40 degrees. On page 5-2 of the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual you will see the true field of view should be 32 degrees. Were off by a total of 8 degrees at Low Power. So, how does this translate to feet? One degree at 1000 yards is equal to 52.356 feet. Times 8=418.8 feet off!! You move out to a range of 2000 yards and yes, the error doubles.

While we're in the manual, a High Power magnification true field of view should be 8 degrees. So, let's see what we have.

The following image has the same grouping of ships, this time with the center reference point to the left bow of the Akita at the 355 relative bearing. Notice the right hand edge of the view is marked at a point on the Akita behind the super structure of the ship.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/StockHigh_xCentered.jpg


The next image below shows this same reference point centered with the cross hair and now the relative bearing reads approximately 0 degree, a 5 degree difference. This means at High Power the stock game has a total FoV of 10 degrees from left edge to right edge, where it should read 8.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/StockHigh_xright.jpg


Without doing a lot of head scratching we can see the stock game needs to be corrected if we want to compare apples to apples and determine what really are we looking at through the games inaccurate eye. Count the Telemeter divisions of the scope, either horizontally or vertically there are 32 divisions. The game dev's planned to have a correct 32 degree FoV but they failed to input the correct "camera" parameters to make the correct view size. It's understandable why there was so little amount of reference in the game manual about the Telemeter marks. They really don't work when trying to use it as described. Not only is the magnification off but the FoV is too great for what the scope should be. I realize the stock relative bearing compass is very forgiving considering its small size, it only as a mark every 5 degrees. Lot's of room to have a couple of degree error, and no one to be the wiser. So, the mod will be using a much larger and more accurate compass in the future. It's made by Captain Cox (an oldie but a goodie). In my next post I'll be showing you what a corrected view of the world will look like (surprisingly, it's not too far off from what my MaxOptics IV modifications would give you, but I'm not here to talk about that. We've got bigger fish to fry).

More later.

[Hydra]

Fantastic work:salute: Looking forward to your followup.

[Dignan]

I'll definitely be watching this one. Nice job. Any estimation of when you will have a working version?

[CapnScurvy]

I'll definitely be watching this one. Nice job. Any estimation of when you will have a working version?

It will take a while, maybe several weeks. That's why I started a "Work in Progress" thread. :03:

Although the Omnimeter is done and working well. I want to test the optical settings for the various game resolutions. The "3000 Yard Bearing Tool" proved the need to have a separate version for whatever game resolutions a player may use. I hope I won't have to do that with this modification, but I may.

Also, there's over 100 ship classes to change in the stock game alone. That's for mast height correction and determining ship length. I've been around this game enough to know you can't take for granted what the game states the heights and lengths should be. Each ship will have to be checked through an edited mission placing it at a specific distance from the sub, at exactly a 90 degree AoB. It's time consuming just to make the test missions, then the real work comes in to measure the heights and lengths.

I'll admit, the testing part is much easier compared to the weeks I've spent on the Omnimeter. So I hope to have it soon, in the mean time I'll use this thread to keep you posted on my progress.

Thanks for asking.

[Sailor Steve]

A thing of beauty! :sunny:

[clayp]

CAP you are the best!!!!!!:yeah:

[Hitman]

In my experience with doing optics for SH3, I have found that the best method to determine true degrees dimensions in the game is actually already built-in, and that is the hardcoded german reticle (Which is in degrees). I recommend you to fire up the game in the highest X=*/768 resolution (4:3) your monitor can handle, and then choose a german uboat and look through the periscope. Take a screenshot and count the pixels between each degree mark, and you will have a very good indicator of that dimension in the game. Then you can adjust the periscope mask and reticle markings in size to ensure it has the correct FOV in terms of linear horizontal pixels. It will work directly for the US counterpart, as the cameras.dat file is shared :DL

Also, don't take that 1x/4x vs. 1.5X/6x thing to seriously. In game terms, augmentation is only equivalent to field of view, and hence you can have a 1x periscope that actually produces the correct linear FOV for a 1.5x. This is because you have in the game two values to play with: Augmentation and Camera aperture (FOV), whereas in real life you don't (They operate in different areas). But the end result in the game is the same, because true augmentation is not possible to be scaled accurately, as you have different sizes of monitors for all players, and you look at them from different distances. The important thing is that between both zooms the difference is 4x, because specially in US optics the small/large marks come in series of 4, as it was primarily designed with 6x in mind, where each big mark is 1 degree and each small one 1/4 degree.

Hope that can give you some ideas, and excuse if you had thought of this all already :oops:

[tomoose]

Excellent work. I'm cringing thinking about my pitiful attempt to do the slider in html format, LOL.

Looking forward to this one. Thanks.:salute:

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks Hitman for your insight!! I'll take a look at the German scope for what you're talking about. Yes, I do realize the ratio between the two magnifications is the important factor (4) not the actual numbers used. Again, thanks for the pointers.

I've got some bad news and some good news.

The bad news first. While running through the various resolutions I found one discrepancy with the stock game optics. The 1280x1024 resolution created a 2 degree field of view difference (low power) compared to all others!! The total FoV for the 1280x1024 resolution was 38 degrees wide! The total FoV for all other resolutions is 36 degrees wide (the figure for having a correct FoV is 32 degrees wide). Admittedly, I grew tired of guessing what relative degree I was on using the stock scope compass so I put in the Big Bearing compass of Captain Cox's and proceeded to check with clearer results. This 2 degree wider FoV only showed on this one resolution, no others. And wouldn't you know it, this is the resolution I usually use for my modding. I plan to check this difference on my other monitor. If past testing holds true, this quirk will require a specific optical setting just for it. The others seem to be exactly the same, even the 1280x768, 1280x960, and the 1280x800. Why, I don't know. I just know it's there.

So you may say, "What's the big deal about a couple of degrees wider with the field of view"?

A target in a wider FoV will appear smaller due to the increased size of its view width. This occurs even though the target is at a specific range away from your sight point. It will appear smaller to you due to the way the game defines its parameters. The trouble comes when you have the game set to "Manual Targeting". As a player you will either use the Stadimeter, scope Telemeter divisions, or Sonar to determine range to target (you can use the map to plot a targets position, measuring with the ruler if the "map contacts update" is enabled. This gets into a bit of "cheating" if you want to really play using manual targeting). Further, both Sonar and the map measurement method does not rely on the FoV for getting their range. Doesn't make a tinkers damn what the view is, the game plots the objects through its game engine and knows precisely where everything is. That's why using the auto targeting feature is accurate when displaying range. It does it through the games built in "GPS" (sort of speak), it knows exactly where it puts things. The trouble is with the Stadimeter, or using the scopes Telemeter divisions needing to have a correct view of a target to calculate range. Without a correct view neither will accurately give correct range. The Stadimeter relies on the targets second water line image to be placed on the screen to determine height. If the height is lower than it should be (due to the smaller size of the target) the range finding will be inaccurate; leaning to a greater distance in range than it should be. The scopes Telemeter divisions are marked for a 32 degree view (check it out, count the divisions from left to right, or top to bottom). A 36 or 38 degree camera view will not give accurate measurements if the the division marks are made for 32 degree FoV!!

The good news is I've corrected the other resolutions to give a 32 degree FoV. It would seem I'll have to make just two different mods to cover the possible resolutions a player may use. I do plan on testing more to make sure but this is where I'm heading.

I told you I would provide an example of what a corrected periscope view would look like. The following images are of a game resolution of 1280x1024 using the "Optical Targeting Correction" modification at low power. We start out at the compass bearing of zero, the plan is to check the bearing at the left edge of the screen.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/MTALow_xCentered.jpg


We move to the point of reference onto the adjacent ship and find....


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/MTALow_xleft.jpg


Ok, we're on the money. 16 degrees = half the field of view, x's 2 = 32 degree FoV.

How about a High Power magnification? We start with the scope centered on the 355 degree relative bearing. This time we will check the right side of the scope, centering on the freighters superstructure, just behind a porthole.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/MTAHigh_xCentered.jpg


We're looking for 4 degrees of change from the center to the edge. This will give us the correct 8 degree total FoV. Here's what we have.....


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/MTAHigh_xRight.jpg


So the optical corrections have been implemented for the 1280x1024 resolution. I have the others as well. I'm going to test more but for now I'm thinking there are just two resolution settings that need to be addressed. I just need to check more.

If all goes as planned now, I'll be testing mast heights and ship lengths soon. I'll keep you up to date.

Again, thanks for your input. Every little bit helps!! :yeah:

[Hitman]

I grew tired of guessing what relative degree I was on using the stock scope compass so I put in the Big Bearing compass of Captain Cox's and proceeded to check.If I might make another input ... here it goes :DL:

It is customary to see in many optical mods scope lenses that cover the whole screen. This is usually justified because the monitor resolution is poor compared with the MKI eyeball and because when you look through a scope/binocular you just see a view circle that covers more or less your whole field of view -even if it is actually way more reduced than when looking with naked eye.

This solution is of course realistic in that aspect.

However, I took a very different approach in my own optics mod, and I think this is a good oportunity to explain why, so you can consider it for the best possible solution.

1.5x zoom was chosen for low power specifically for one reason: At that magnification, objects appear to observer at their natural 1x size (i.e. as if looking at them with naked eye), and that was a much desired effect since naked eye range estimations were common practice in WW1 torpedo firing and carried on through prewar to WW2. The german navy also used that magnification, and according to Norman Friedman (US submarines through 1945) it was because of the same reason. Also, situational awareness is much improved because the observer has a real sense of how far the object is, and of the chances of maneuvering the submarine in the space available.

Hence, enlarging the scope size in the screen as shown in those pictures produces one realistic effect, and also one irrealistic one: You lose any sense of proportions between what you see through the scope and what you see from the bridge. Furthermore, it subtedly makes you want to submerge, because you actually have a better sight of the enemy from periscope view ... which is exactly the opposite to what historically happened. US periscopes were well known for poor light transmission and limited capabilities to use the stadimeter at ranges above 5000 yards with any kind of accurancy (Again same book from Norman Friedman).

So, to sum up, I think that in a overall picture of the game, a periscope that appears smaller in the centre of the screen would be more effective to fully simulate the conditions under it was operated in WW2. But of course, this is your mod, adn anyway you solve the matter I will agree (And download and enjoy it :D).

[CapnScurvy]

As a follow up on the resolution differences I pointed out earlier; comparing the 1280x1024 setting to others. There is indeed a difference in the stock game when looking at the scopes field of view of the 1280x1024 resolution compared to all others (1024x768 up to 1920x1080). The 1280x1024 gives you a wider FoV by two degrees over the other resolutions. I mentioned I used a larger compass bearing to achieve greater accuracy and found the FoV of the stock 1280x1024 to be 38 degrees (using the stock compass, I had said the FoV was approximately 40 degrees). Further, I found the remaining stock resolutions to be a consistent 36 degree FoV, so there's a 2 degree difference between the two. These numbers are not as bad as I first originally thought but they still are not at a 32 degree field of view where they should be. I confirmed this finding by running my test missions on another computer using a native 1920x1080 monitor.

In doing a bit of checking, I found the stock game was first released with a 1.5 and 6.0 magnification in the periscopes with a 57.265 Angular Angle. It would appear the developers had some notion of having the game optics as they should be. However, after the first patch (released here in the U.S. only weeks after the game) and up through the last 1.5 (U-boat Missions addon/Gold Edition), the magnification has been 1.0 and 4.0 with an Angular Angle of 62.4814. What does this mean to the average gamer? Short answer, you aren't going to get a proper view of the world. Also, you don't stand a chance of getting mast heights or ship lengths correct if you expect to use the Telemeter scope marks to help in counting. Actually, I believe the plan all along was to bastardize the U.S. game for the long held intention of putting the "Nazi's in the Pacific". AND charge us extra to do it. Thanks UBI, you're a real peach!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist telling you what I think. I'm better now.

So, here's a couple of comparison images between the stock and the Optical Targeting Correction mod. First in low power magnification. The Akita is at 1000 yards range.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/LowPower.jpg

Now in High Power.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/HighPower.jpg


Is this the same view of the real world through the periscope. No, not at all (least I wouldn't know, I've never looked through a periscope). But it does accurately give us a relative perspective of the game world with a consistency that should enhance game play.

Look at the monitor you're reading this on. It's probably the same one you use to play the game. If not, it's very close to being the same. The point is, it's 2 dimensional!! Like it or not, there is no depth perception to it. None! Close one eye and the flat screen looks the same. Now, go to a window and take a look about. Then close one eye. You see the difference in your depth perception? This difference (or lack of) is what we see playing the game. We have no depth perception in the game because of this simple fact, the image is reproduced on a flat, 2 dimensional monitor.

Did the real life captains enjoy using the naked eye to judge target assessments? Heck yes, using the scopes single eyepiece gave them the same "lack of depth perception" one gets when covering one's eye. Of course, it's much better to have complete binocular vision than monocular. But, in the game we get monocular vision in the periscope and on the bridge. Like it or not. In real life the Telemeter marks were put into the scopes lens to give the captain a basis for accurately determining targets heights and lengths without the aid of depth perception. Its my goal to have these marks corrected to the image the game displays to aid in the same way.

What the captains did enjoy about the scope views were the magnifications. They could "bring in" the targets to get a better view than looking at it through the naked eye. There aren't many photos of periscope images but here's a few.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Scope_3.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Scope_2.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Scope_1.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Scope_5.jpg


You can almost see the boys waving on the deck can't you!?!

If this is max magnification, how close do you suppose they are? The pictures don't tell you but I'm of the opinion they were darn close!! Which makes me wonder why in the world do we think the game image of a target should be so small we have to squint to see the mast head? I have no intention of changing the optics just to see the target ships with better clarity. My plan is to provide the same optical parameters as the real life fleet boat, and do it so it is accurate within the game world that's provided. In doing this I believe the target will appear as close to what it should, with the added benefit of appearing closer than what the stock game provides. In other words, having a 50 foot dimension really read 50 feet in the game. Whether it truly is 50 feet in real world dimensions isn't important as long as the game thinks so. This is something I believe has been a long standing problem of modders using real world dimensions in the game. Using the ONI ship recognition reference to change ship dimensions and thinking this will solve any calculations the game makes. In my opinion the game is flawed in its view of the world. Using real world dimensions will be inaccurate. I'm not holding out hope for this, but just maybe, correcting the optical view will allow a closer relationship of what the game portrays and what the real world view truly is.

[Hitman]

Of course you have a point there, and it actually isn't incompatible at all with what I wanted to highlight: Do the optics as you see better, and then update the other angluar angle views of the open bridge, etc, to match. What I want to stress is the importance of keeping the proportions, and not being used to see the enemy ship at a certain distance when still surfaced, and then suddenly it appears much closer when submerged. This can easily screw your approach because you lose a sense of how far or close the enemy is, and you miscalculate the space needed to maneuver.

1.5x should allow keeping the tactical view, 6x all details and getting accurate masts measuring, etc. as you rightfully point out. :up:

[CapnScurvy]

Hitman, your point is well taken.

I had not thought of looking at the bridge view and have it relate to the new scope views until you brought it up. The only views that give you the tools for making assessments for measurements were the scope views, so I have concentrated my efforts on them. I'll be able to make the adjustment to the bridge view, making it a bit smaller than the scopes. It's just that I'll have to "eye ball" the relationship (yep, pun intended).

Here's the difference between the two views as they stand now. As Hitman pointed out the difference between the two is too great to be considered accurately portrayed.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Bridgeview.jpg


The above (and below) pictured test mission is having the Akita at a 1000 yard distance (1001 to be exact).


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/1000yat1360x.jpg


If you wish to check target ships with the same type of mission test I'm using you can download it HERE (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2860). It's simply called "Test 21" and will be found in the "Quick Mission" menu of the main game screen. It has several target ships positioned around a stationary sub. The down loadable "Optical Test Mission Pack" (JSGME compatible) has two mods. The above mentioned test mission and Captain Cox's "Big Bearing" compass for the attack periscope. The compass should help as you check the field of view degree findings. Extract each mod separately to the JSGME "MODS" folder to activate.

Using both mods, you can check the stock field of view yourself, and come up with your own conclusions. Try the 1280x1024 resolution for a different size than the rest!! Depending on the monitor you use, some of the various resolutions will of course appear distorted. But, as you compare the relative compass bearing to the outer views edge you will see a consistent degree figure used (except for the1280x1024), no matter if the view is distorted or not.

[Hitman]

I will give it a try, but if you use 1.5x in the scope as basic zoom, then it's all a matter of setting for the bridge view the same aperture angle as for the scope :DL

[CapnScurvy]

Hitman I'm wondering if you know (or anyone else), what is the Field of View for the TBT in the real life fleet boats? For that matter, the UZO for the U-boat. I've tried the Internet and have come up empty regarding the TBT. Little information all together.

The stock game has the magnification at 7x. When reading the FoV within the TBT it covers 3 1/4 degrees to the edge (from center) meaning it's 6 1/2 degrees total FoV. Just wondering what was it in real life?

[Hitman]

Yes I know, the TBT had a FOV of 7.25 degrees and a 7x magnification.

I can't quote where I got it, but I will look for it. In any case, bear in mind that there were some unofficial TBTs handmade by the crew using a pair of standard B&Lomb 7x Navy binoculars and a pelorous and installed on the bridge like f.e. USS Tang had, and also the later "official" Mare Island TBT which was equipped to all submarines twice (Front and rear of bridge). This last one had a simple crosshair that I replicated in an earlier mod of mine:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150785

As for the german UZO, it was the same, 7.1x and 7.25 degrees.

In this one I can quote the source: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm

EDIT:

I forgot to add that 7x was not chosen randomly. There was a good reason to use this magnification, read more here: http://www.opticsplanet.net/binmarine.html

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks Hitman for the information.

I'm just wondering out loud, did the WWII vintage TBT look the same as what's on the USS Bowfin now? I had read your post before (regarding the modification you made), and since the Bowfin was decommissioned in 1947, recommissioned in 1951 (probably due to the Korean Conflict) then decommissioned again in 1954. I'm wondering if a change in the TBT was made when it was refitted? Or, maybe a newer TBT was installed just for the museum?

Guess I'm asking, What did the view through the WWII vintage TBT look like? Did it have Telemeter marks as the game view, OR did it have the simple "cross hairs" that the Bowfin's TBT has now?

[Hitman]

Well the USS Cod has exactly the same one and it is claimed by the curators as WW2 original :DL, so I think it's safe to asume that this is the Mare Island official one. Look through it is like shown in my other thread, and I have never heard of any model with graticle. But as with many other things, crews "customized" this, so probably there were some (I have a list of several different B&L binoculars handed to the marine and many of them had milliradian markings for range finding).

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks again Hitman for the information, there just isn't much information on the TBT when you start to look. Bits and pieces from here and there.

When I read your thread regarding the TBT I noticed you had the same problem I've had regarding the mask not completely blocking the background. I've been able to overcome this by making sure the Alpha image is saved at 32 bit. I know we all have our favorite way of working with images and alpha channels. I will "export" the alpha to a .bmp image and make my changes, then save it at 32 bit. I'll then "import" it back into the .dds image file and the opaque is heavy enough to prevent a bleed through. Having the alpha saved at 8 or 16 bit allows too much transparency (least for the scope views when using the camera image as the background). Just thought I'd pass it on.

[Hitman]

I've been able to overcome this by making sure the Alpha image is saved at 32 bit. I know we all have our favorite way of working with images and alpha channels. I will "export" the alpha to a .bmp image and make my changes, then save it at 32 bit. I'll then "import" it back into the .dds image file and the opaque is heavy enough to prevent a bleed through. Having the alpha saved at 8 or 16 bit allows too much transparency (least for the scope views when using the camera image as the background). Just thought I'd pass it on.

Oh cool :up:

Had certainly not thought about it, many thanks for sharing :yeah:

[CapnScurvy]

I've been working on having all the stock ships placed at an approximately 1000 yards distance and at a 90 degree abeam angle in my test missions. I finished this last week, and have been creating the Recognition Manual to support the added ship length dimensions. I've followed some of my previous work in creating ship reference points other than the mast head for the height dimension. There are just some ships that lend themselves better to this approach than a nonexistent mast head (many of the capital American warships use the center mast for their flag placement. There is no mast visible at 1000 yards to judge the distance, the flag has to be attached to something, so the top of the flag will be used for the reference point). All Recognition Manual pictures will have the height reference point marked with either a red line or a national flag.

Turning the ships to a full 90 degree abeam angle will allow a correct measurement of the ships length at 1000 yards distance. I thought I'd give you a bit of a preview of what and how I'm doing.

The first image is of the Bogue CVE showing the computer found range at 1000 yards. Notice I have put the ships length dimension along the top of the RM page. The "Divided By:" figure is something I'll get to later.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Computerfoundrange.jpg


This image is with the game running at the 1024x768 resolution. The dimensions and image ratio will be the same for all other resolutions except for the 1280x1024 (I'll need a whole different set of dimensions for this particular resolution).

The next image shows the Stadimeter at work using the 68.2 feet height dimension for the top of the bridge superstructure as the reference point.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/Manualfoundrange.jpg

I had already checked the range with the Stadimeter and found the distance to be 1000 yards using this 68.2 ft measurement. That's good, the stadimeter is right on (In my opinion, the reading could be as much as 10 yards off, one way or the other, and still be very accurate at a 1000 yard range distance).

Next, I'm using the Telemeter marks to judge distance with the Omnimeter. We know the Bogue is at a 1000 yard distance so lets see how close are we when using the Omnimeter and Telemeter marks as we should. The image has the High Power magnification in use. The first thing to do is to move the Omnimeters magnification scale slider to point to the height of the Bogue found in the RM, 68.2 ft. Next, place a Telemeter line on the target's waterline and read the distance to the reference point. Then check the Omnimeter for the approximately 5 1/4 marks at High Power to the range scale in the center of the device. The red lines are just to point out the Telemeter marks which are a light green in color. The green color will help in night estimates.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/HighpowerOmni.jpg


The range is found to be about 1000 yards which is correct for this particular ship test.

The following image shows the periscopes magnification at low power. The only thing that changes is where you read the Telemeter Power Scale, this time on the Low Power setting. Which is at about 1 1/4 marks.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/LowpowerOmni.jpg

This should give you a taste of how the device will work and it's accuracy when used.

I mentioned something about the "Divided By:" figure on the RM page. When you use ship lengths to find Angle on Bow determinations you will need to divide the total overall ship length by a number that will allow the Omnimeter to be used (the Omnimeter only has the length dimension to a maximum of 200 feet). In the case of the Bogue, its length is 494 ft. A divisible number of 3 will be used to give you a working ratio of 165 ft (494 divided by 3=164.6; close enough to 165). You will simply use the 165ft length figure to calculate with the range; then remember to multiply 3 back into the figure to get the correct finding. This was how the real life Omnimeter was used, so keep the calculators handy. Just think how lucky we are to have a calculator, the crews had to use slide rules or just paper and pencil to figure this. The "Divided By:" figure is just an aid in getting you started toward the final Omnimeter result.

My next job is to finish the ship length calculations for the 100 plus stock ships. This will take time but the game isn't going anywhere. I think the next post will contain the "what and how" to finding AoB with the Omnimeter.

[CapnScurvy]

As promised, I want to explain how you will use the Omnimeter tool to find Angle on Bow of a target ship. Lately I've been working on the various world views and putting them into their correct perspectives to match the views of the calibrated scopes. The flack gun gave me the most trouble with trying to get the aiming mark to line up with the column of fire after having the target sized correctly. I still need to check the other flack guns for their correct view. I'm going through the individual ship dimensions and changing them as needed. If you haven't guessed, I'm intending on this mod to be a comprehensive replacement to my SCAF mod. Not only will the Optics be corrected but also accurate ship dimensions as well.

To start, I admit I cheated. I made a mission with a Japanese destroyer approaching and I fully knew what type it was (a Fubuki). So, to test the Telemeter divisions I knew what ship was coming and made the target range finding much earlier than one would do if you relied on positive identification to decide what you're up against. I did this to check the accuracy of the range finding with both Telemeter marks and using the Stadimeter. I was accurate at distances beyond normal ship identification distance, so I think this was good for checking the basic ability of the tools involved with manual targeting. The Omnimeter has two movable sliders. The top is called the AoB scale, the lower is the Telemeter scale. Both have a "red pointer" for setting the scale to whatever your doing. The scale is mouse draggable in the general area of these pointers.


I've got the game running in a 1600x1200 resolution. This first image shows the Fubuki coming from the starboard side at a little over a 3/4 telemeter mark high. The periscope is set to its High Power magnification. As you can tell at this distance making a positive ID is impossible (so shoot me). I've moved the Telemeter scale pointer to the Fubuki's mast height 73.8 ft (where the top of the flag is) and read the corresponding figure to a bit over 3/4, or about 6500 yards.

I admit, there's a bit of wiggle room at these long distances when using the Omnimeter. The scopes Telemeter reading is near the 7/8 area of a division, so you'll need to guess at the position on the range scale.



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/RangeFinding.jpg



To check this finding I'm running the test with the manual targeting disabled giving me the computer found range of 6478 yards (yep, I'm cheating again). Oh, by the way. If you check the Recognition Manual page for the Fubuki, you can barely see the rising sun flag at it's corrected position for this ships height. Like SCAF, if the reference point is to be the top of the flag, a national flag is put into the RM pictures to aid you in finding range (either with the scopes Telemeter divisions or the Stadimeter).



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/RangeCheck.jpg


Ok, so we have range to target found with the Telemeter marks and using the Omnimeter (and rechecked by the game itself) to be about 6500 yards. As I fooled around getting the pictures and lining up the Omnimeter, my final range I used for the Angle on Bow check was about 6200 yards. You will need to have the range to target in order to find Angle on Bow.

To find AoB, use the scopes horizontal Telemeter marks to measure the approaching target. The below image has the ship length at about 1 1/2 division marks on the High Power magnification. Now move the Telemeter scale to match the "1 1/2 High Power" figure with the approximate 6200/6300 yard range distance found on the Omnimeters center "Range in YARDS" scale. Next, read the dimension (on the lower Height/Length scale) at the Telemeter scale's "red pointer"; it reads about 130. The 130 ft reading is going to be used in relationship to the overall ships length in finding the difference between the two. This "difference" is the targets measurement of angle, at least the angle that the target is in at the time of the reading. And it's this difference that will render the Angle on Bow amount.

Move the upper Angle on Bow slider to have its "red pointer" set at the targets overall length of 380 ft onto the center Range scale (the overall length will be found in the Recognition Manual). I know, you may say this "Range" scale is set to yards, and it is when you use it for finding range. BUT, it also can be used for finding specific lengths that are not set in yards such as the length of a target in feet. The key is built into the Omnimeter comparing the "ratio" of a dimension not the actual size of the dimension. So just use the scales for the face value of the dimension, don't worry about converting feet into yards or back again.

Using the 130 ft figure, find 130 on the Range scale and correspond it with the AoB scale. I know, there isn’t really a 130 figure on the Range scale. Just pretend its just about off the scale, below the 150 mark. You end up somewhere near the upper 17 degree AoB area of the scale. You can now enter the AoB through setting the Attack Data AoB and send it to the TDC.



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/AoBCheck.jpg



To check the figure, the next image has the computer found range in the Position Keeper and Angle on Bow showing in the Attack Data tool. Both show the AoB to be about 16 degrees, very near the Omnimeter's found result.



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/FinalCheck.jpg



Of course, you'll want to make additional checks for range, AoB, and do a timed assessment for target speed but, what else do you have to do? This ship traveling at the speed of 5 knots will take 30 minutes to cross into firing range! Plenty of time to make corrections and further observations.

In an earlier post I told you that there will come a time when the Omnimeter runs out of room on the Height/Length scale (it only goes up to 200ft), and you'll have to divide the range in half to keep the Height/Length scale within its parameters. Just remember to multiply back into the Height/Length dimension what you divided by to use on the center "Range" scale. As in this example double the 130 to 260 and find it on the "Range" scale. No need to double the AoB, just read the AoB at the 260 mark.

So far I've been very satisfied with the results. The nearer the target, the more precise the reading will be. I'm planning on helping the Omnimeter with creating more divisions so an easier read can occur at these long distances. If the Omnimeter works this well at long distances it should work equally well at shorter distances.

[Hitman]

Excellent again :up:

It's also good to know that the ruler can be used inversely, i.e. you make the estimate of AOB by naked eye and knowing the size of the target after a positive ID you can calculate range :yeah:That's according to the Torpedo Fire control manual 1951 the primary use, but it's nice how you reversed it help finding the AOB in the always limited 2D environment of a screen :up:

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks Hitman,

You're very observant!! :salute:

The "Torpedo Fire Control Manual" illustrates how the Omnimeter is used to find a target length when range and an estimate of AoB is used. I just reversed the process by knowing the estimated range and target length, you should come up with AoB using the Omnimeter.

What has really helped is having the optics capable of measuring the world correctly. In other words, the Telemeter divisions really do measure 52 feet vertically or horizontally at 1000 yards distance (at least in the games terms).

Again, my focus is on completing the ship heights and lengths for the stock game, and making a Metric Omnimeter to be used for the German side before release.

Next week I'm heading East to cheer my niece on who's running the NYC Marathon. While I'm up there I'm planning to visit the Submarine Museum in Groton Conn. I know they have a TBT in the hallway leading to the Nautilus docked out in the river. I just want to see what one looks like through the lens.

[Hitman]

Oh great and please take a picture if possible so we can see it :yeah:

[CapnScurvy]

Oh great and please take a picture if possible so we can see it :yeah:

Yes, I plan to. Although I'm guessing, sticking the camera up to just one lens will only show what the one lens sees. But I'll certainly try. From what I've seen of the TBT it doesn't have much capability to conform to the different eye spacing we all have. Most of the binoculars now a days have a hinged center to allow for a better "fit" to the users pupils. This usually allows for both focal views to converge into a complete circle. I'm curious to see what the TBT binoculars have if anything. I have my grandfathers WWI Artillery field glasses and they are not hinged. The view is small and depending on how far away you hold them up to your eyes, the view changes from a double circle to a single circle.

I've been to the museum several times, but there's always something new to look for. These kinds of things just never get old to me. :D

[Fish40]

I have been to the Nautilus this past summer, and looked through the TBT. Unfortunately i can't remember if the scope had the range markings or not. When you're with youngsters they tend to get board very fast and want to rush through. The Fleetboat attack room is cool! Has a TDC and working periscopes that you could look through.If you're close to NYC, may I suggest visiting the Intrepid as well. Another great piece of history:yeah:

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks for the thought about the Intrepid Fish40. I've not been to the museum but it sounds really interesting. The more modern USS Growler missle submarine is there too. I'm up in New Haven now, planning on heading to the city Sunday morning to watch my niece run the marathon. We will be close to Pier 86, but we may not have time to take in the museum. :wah:

I've been to the Yorktown CV 10 (the first Yorktown CV 5 was lost at the Battle of Midway) in Charleston SC, and the carriers are huge when standing on their decks!! I'd love to visit the Intrepid, I believe it was launched just after the second Yorktown and carries the CV 11 number. It's just great these old machines of war are kept out of the salvage yard!!

As far as the TBT goes, I'm thinking no matter what the view may reveal, we will need to have the ability to judge a ships height and length with Telemeter divisions. The game takes this even a step further by having the Stadimeter in use with the TBT. In real life, the Stadimeter was never put into the binoculars of the TBT. The in-game question is, why have a TBT station if you can't use it to send a reading back to the TDC? In real life, the TBT only sent the target ships realtive bearing to the TDC operator, the range was gained by pure eyeball estimation or by the radar or sonar findings. So, some ability to do just that was put into the game and (I believe) a correct Telemeter divided TBT view should do that too. One other thing I do know about the TBT, was it had the capability of illuminating it's self to show whatever marks it had for night attacks (which is what it was mainly used for). My plan is to do just that before I'm done. Just a bit of color to the corrected division marks should do the trick.

[virtualpender]

One other thing I do know about the TBT, was it had the capability of illuminating it's self to show whatever marks it had for night attacks (which is what it was mainly used for).

Wasn't the illumination a rather late war addition? I thought (but could be mistaken) that for the majority of the war the TBT was just a mount for a pair of 7x50's. I'm pretty sure that O'Kane discusses this in both WAHOO! and CTB.

Regardless, very impressive work you are completing. Very much enjoying following the progress. And enjoy Groton - I can't wait to make my way out there.

[Hitman]

Well we know that there was an official Mare Island TBT install late in the war, but we also know:

1) That skippers started adding a mount with pelorouse for their 7x50s well before that

2) That they got custom reticles engraved in their 7x50s

(Both informations from O'Kane's "Clear the Bridge")

So I guess it would be fine to have a 7x50 with telemeter divisions as if we had requested the yard to add it for us. In that regard, the slide out ruler for distance calculation does actually make more sense than ever, because the 7x50s didn't have a stadimeter as C.Scurvy already pointed out. :up:

[virtualpender]

Great stuff. Thanks, Hitman!

[CapnScurvy]

Back home from the East coast with a few photos from the Submarine museum at the New London sub base in Groton, Connecticut. I focused on the TBT that is easily available.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/TBT.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010367.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010366.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010368.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010369.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010371.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/P1010374.jpg


These last couple of shots were taken through the right side lens (the left side doesn't provide the cross hair markings, only the right). I pointed the view to a white wall in the museum to help see the size of the markings. The last photo is looking out towards the west side of the Connecticut River.

On the third photo showing the right side of the TBT, notice the 4 screws holding a cover on the right/top of the lens (just to the right of the manufacture label). The center circle is some sort of a lens giving light to this side of the binoculars. I'm assuming this was how the cross hairs were lit for night viewing with an external light source.

[CapnScurvy]

Just thought I'd update you on my progress. I'm about 1/3 done with checking ship heights and lengths. I've checked and corrected about 30 ships so far.

I've had to work with the metric version of the Omnimeter to get it correct for use (some changes needed to be made to the "Ship: Name" area of the German solution notepad due to how I'm putting the ship lengths into the Recognition Manual; change one thing and two others become problems to solve).

I've also made an additional "optional" mod to have the periscopes and TBT/UZO appear as realistic as possible; removing any highlights from the Telemeter divisions marks which would help in night observations. Although the TBT did have the capability to be illuminated, I kept this feature. Also (I don't see anyway around this), I've had to keep the Telemeter divisions in the TBT/UZO for making estimates of range. The real life TBT didn't have this feature, it was just for reading relative bearing of a target. But, I think our need to read range to target is important when looking through this device, so there are division marks in the TBT view which will be highlighted.

[Hitman]

Nice pictures! I see the crosshair was the same I had found previously on a similar model. Must have been the standard, then :yep:

In the picture with the plaque details I can't find the optical values (FOV, zoom, etc), were you able to get them?

I've had to keep the Telemeter divisions in the TBT/UZO for making estimates of range. The real life TBT didn't have this feature, it was just for reading relative bearing of a target. But, I think our need to read range to target is important when looking through this device, so there are division marks in the TBT view which will be highlighted.

Apparently the official TBT installation started appearing at a time when all subs had already radar, hence they found unnecessary to add the markings. However, it's interesting to note that german UZOs didn't have those markings either. The IWO estimated range by naked eye, both looking directly at the target over the binoculars, and using the FOV and estimated size of the target as a guide. My guess is that, even if slightly stabilized, the TBT/UZO moved too much for a good measurement with a reticle, whereas the periscope, with the submarine submerged, was much more steady.

Then there's another aspect of the game that is difficult to recreate: The huge difference between seeing things plainly with your eyes and looking through a periscope/binocular. In real life, skippers hated submerging because they lost the privileged view of the target with naked eyes and lots of situational awareness, being limited to look through a small eyepiece. In the game, ironically, it's the opposite, as the mods usually give excellent views through periscope that are much better than what you see in the bridge. The player doesn't have therefore so much of a reward for staying surfaced in that aspect.:hmmm:

[timmyg00]

The last photo is looking out towards the west side of the Connecticut River.
That would be the Thames River. Great shots!

TG

[Fish40]

Just wondering if this mod will be compatable with RFB?:hmmm:

[CapnScurvy]

In the picture with the plaque details I can't find the optical values (FOV, zoom, etc), were you able to get them?



No, there where no other markings for lens values or magnifications on the piece. The manufactures label has it as a "MARK 91 Telescope" (the 1 is barely visible). I've done a bit of "Googling" and have come up with little information. One post on a forum website called opticsplanet.com asked:


by Guest on Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:25 pm

I have a pair of binoculars that came from a US WWII ship possibly named the USS Darter. Manufactured by Bausch & lomb, they are solid metal, seems like cast iron, and are very heavy. They have a marking of:
US NAVY-BU. OF ORD
MARK 91 MOD. 0
WT. 40 SER. NO 212
BAUSCH & LOMB OPTICAL CO.

Any information about these binoc's, their value, or where I may be able to find out about them would be appreciated.


No one had much info on the handful of replies except for this gentleman's comments:

by opticschief on Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:53 pm

The Mk-91 and Mk-93 were left up in the sail of the the submarine all the time. We used to pressure test them to about 300 ft. They sat on top of a TBT (Target Bearing Transmitter) that directly sent the direction the binocular was pointing down to the control room to be fed to the fire control computer (old days, all gears). There were two models, one was 7x the other was a 6x. They are NOT what was refered to as "big eyes", which were 20x120mm.


"Opticschief" stated he had been stationed on the Darter and had perhaps cleaned the very pair the first fellow had in question. Interesting, but no real info on the makeup of the binoculars.

I did a bit more checking and found more information from this linked manual (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fiveinch25/part3.htm) for a Submarines 5" deck gun. It seems the Mark 91 Telescope was used there at times as well.

10. Telescope Mark 91. This telescope differs from most other broadside gunsight telescopes in that it is binocular. It is of the straight body, prismatic, single-power, fixed-focus type without checker's eyepieces. The telescope is illustrated in figure 21.

Data are as follows:

Magnification 6X
True field 7°
Exit pupil 8.3mm
Eye distance 23.0mm


As indicated in paragraph 2, Telescope Mark 91 will be installed on all the subject mounts. Support for the telescope will consist of a bracket secured to the deflection arc shaft. The telescope will be mounted in this support bracket with adjustment.

Telescope Mark 91 will be mounted so as to be easily removable. The purpose is to enable rapid substitution of a standard 7 x 50 binocular (carried by both trainer and pointer) in case the Mark 91 telescope is fouled by foreign matter when submerged. When thus mounted, the lines of sight of the standard binocular will be parallel to those of the telescope.


So, if you put the two together, the "Mark 91" could have either a 6x or 7x magnification, and at least one U.S. training manual lists the 6x version as having a 7 degree FoV. Which version the museum had, I haven't got a clue. Bausch & Lombs website didn't provide much help either.



============

:oops: I stand corrected Timmyg00, it is the Thames river. My bad.

============



Just wondering if this mod will be compatable with RFB?:hmmm:

As far as a compatible version for RFB, I'm needing to finish the stock version first for both 1.5 and 1.4 (I don't plan on keeping those folks out in the cold). Since I know there's a problem with the stock games 1280x1024 resolution which has the periscopes camera FoV increased by 2+ degrees over the other game resolutions, I'll have to make a separate version just for that resolution. Then there's TMO, and RSRDC to keep up with!! Guess I'm saying I'll try, but the fact that those guys working on RFB now saw fit to change the "ride height" of ships just to make them "look better" makes reading manual range all the more screwed up. I'm just not in a hurry to fix their problem.

[Hitman]

So, if you put the two together, the "Mark 91" could have either a 6x or 7x magnification, and at least one U.S. training manual lists the 6x version as having a 7 degree FoV. Which version the museum had, I haven't got a clue. Bausch & Lombs website didn't provide much help either.Good find, I have been myself at opticsplanet forums and didn't see it :up:

I'd swear I have seen the 7x mentioned elsewhere, I'm almost sure it was on the website of one of the museum submarines, may be the USS Cod :hmmm:

[CapnScurvy]

It's been a while since I've been on the forum to update my progress. That's a good thing, I can get some work done on this project!!


I spent some time tweaking the Omnimeter to have it read correctly. I found the original USS Cod version (its picture is at the beginning of this thread) was a bit off when used. Take a good look at the image below.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/CODOmnicloseup.jpg


Notice the tick just to the right of the arrow of the Telemeter Scale. That wasn't put on there for nothing. For some readings (depending on the height and distance to the target this "tick" gave more accurate range than the "arrow" did. The problem was how the Cods Omnimeter was made (for the most part these devices were hand made by the crew), this one has the Telemeter Scale just a bit off what it should be. Take a look at where the Telemeter Scale reading of "2" at High Power magnification is reading. Its sitting right on 4000 yards range with the "arrow" set to the 100 ft height mark. That's wrong, doing the math the range needs to read 3820 yards. That's just about the difference the added "tick" would give you. So someone figured it out and added the "tick" to correct the error. Probably better than going down to the cigar chewing Chief Machinist and having him make another!!


I'm finished with the stock game 105 ship entries. The corrected mast heights and ship lengths are listed in the Recognition Manual. Most warships will have a mast head as the reference point for taking a reading with the Stadimeter or using the scope Telemeter divisions for finding range. On a few, I've chosen to use the prominent flag as the reference point. The top of the flag is simply a better visual point (it has to be attached to something, like a mast anyway!). Most of the merchants I'm using the top of the funnel as their reference point. The Recognition Manual pictures will aid in using the correct reference point for all ships with either a red marked area or an added flag to point to the spot.


I've been working on the documentation to go along with the mod. I've finished a PDF on how to make a calculation of range and AoB using the Omnimeter for both Imperial and Metric versions.

One thing I'm doing now is to see if I can make a way to input range to the Position Keeper without using the Stadimeter function. Early on I had made a circular Omnimeter dial and found some interesting things about the different dial functions. I'm looking at making a better, more clearer readable dial than what's on the Attack Data Tool and hope to have it function to set range for the TDC. It seems a waste to calculate range to target using the scopes Telemeter divisions without having a way of inputting range to the TDC. So, I'm going to spend a little time to see what I can do. If I don't make some progress towards this I'll still release the "Optical Targeting Correction" without the range input function.

[Hitman]

One thing I'm doing now is to see if I can make a way to input range to the Position Keeper without using the Stadimeter function. Early on I had made a circular Omnimeter dial and found some interesting things about the different dial functions. I'm looking at making a better, more clearer readable dial than what's on the Attack Data Tool and hope to have it function to set range for the TDC. It seems a waste to calculate range to target using the scopes Telemeter divisions without having a way of inputting range to the TDC. So, I'm going to spend a little time to see what I can do. If I don't make some progress towards this I'll still release the "Optical Targeting Correction" without the range input function.

Yes you can :DL

The only problem is that you need a circular wheel and not a slide out tool like the one you currently have. If you do it circular and with manual input, you can link it directly to the slide out tool on the right top of the screen, so that both rotate together. In fact it would just be a clone copy (But bigger and with marks scale) of that tool, but it would serve the purpose you want.

Nisgeis also managed to translate horizontal slide into turning the distance wheel for his radar mod, but he tweaked something much deeper than simply the menu.ini for that. You could ask him however and see what he thinks :hmmm:

[CapnScurvy]

Yes, I'm on my way to making a circular range dial. I've got the graphics done, and it will be linked to the Attack Data Tool. I'm just about ready to recheck the position and resizing math for the menu_1024_768.ini file. I've done this many times but I always seem to need to reeducate myself on what the heck I'm doing!!

[CapnScurvy]

Progress Report:


I've finished creating a Range Dial that will allow for updating the TDC without using the Stadimeter. This will allow for a range gathered through reading the Telemeter division marks to be entered into the TDC for a firing solution. If you gather range from the Radar this may also be inputted through the dial to the TDC. The below images have the German and U.S. Range Dials showing their results on the German's Solution Notepad, and the Americans Position Keeper. The game is running at the 1024x768 resolution.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/GermanRangeDial.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/USRangeDial.jpg


The Position Keeper can be turned "on" to track a target using the input of the Range Dial much like the Stadimeter does (of course the needed target Speed and AoB must also be sent to the TDC). There is no interference with the Stadimeter's use when the Range Dial process is used nor does the Stadimeter interfere with the Dial. You will note that there are limitations to the Dial. The minimum Range is 500 yards/meters, the maximum is 6200 yards/meters. This was done to allow for as large a dial that could fit the screen size without covering too much area, and giving the dial enough area to be as precise as possible given its limitations. The dial will give fairly accurate readings if you are careful where you set it. Still, the amount of movement for 100 yards/meters is only about 6 degrees. That's not a lot to play with if you're trying to nail down an exact range figure. But, I believe its enough to get you close to a good firing solution.

With this portion now done, I'm going to update the Change Log, and Instruction .PDF. Once I'm through with the documentation I should be ready for a release of a SH4 patched to 1.5 version.

[keltos01]

I love it !

two requests :

can you make it black background/ white letters like the other dials ?

could you help Hitman with the british fruit machine ?

thanks

keltos

[CapnScurvy]

Hi keltos01, been a long time since I've talked to you!

Good point about the color for the American Range Dial. I'll see what one looks like; light lettering on a dark background.


As far as Hitman needing help, he's way too good to need my measly efforts!! :88)

[CapnScurvy]

Thought I'd post a darker Range Dial for the American side of play. I like it.

Thanks keltos01 for the idea.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/DarkerRangeDial.jpg



Now, back to the documentation. :wah:

[keltos01]

Thought I'd post a darker Range Dial for the American side of play. I like it.

Thanks keltos01 for the idea.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/DarkerRangeDial.jpg



Now, back to the documentation. :wah:

Have a nice New Year's Eve !!!

now it positively looks excellent !!!! love the darker dial !

regards

keltos

[Hitman]

E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T :yeah:

So it will work both ny using the stadimeter as per normal and also by dragging the wheel? It will need a scale for the TBT marks & Mast heigth in the inner wheel, right?

[keltos01]

Progress Report:


I've finished creating a Range Dial that will allow for updating the TDC without using the Stadimeter. This will allow for a range gathered through reading the Telemeter division marks to be entered into the TDC for a firing solution. If you gather range from the Radar this may also be inputted through the dial to the TDC. The below images have the German and U.S. Range Dials showing their results on the German's Solution Notepad, and the Americans Position Keeper. The game is running at the 1024x768 resolution.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/GermanRangeDial.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/DarkerRangeDial.jpg


The Position Keeper can be turned "on" to track a target using the input of the Range Dial much like the Stadimeter does (of course the needed target Speed and AoB must also be sent to the TDC). There is no interference with the Stadimeter's use when the Range Dial process is used nor does the Stadimeter interfere with the Dial. You will note that there are limitations to the Dial. The minimum Range is 500 yards/meters, the maximum is 6200 yards/meters. This was done to allow for as large a dial that could fit the screen size without covering too much area, and giving the dial enough area to be as precise as possible given its limitations. The dial will give fairly accurate readings if you are careful where you set it. Still, the amount of movement for 100 yards/meters is only about 6 degrees. That's not a lot to play with if you're trying to nail down an exact range figure. But, I believe its enough to get you close to a good firing solution.

With this portion now done, I'm going to update the Change Log, and Instruction .PDF. Once I'm through with the documentation I should be ready for a release of a SH4 patched to 1.5 version.



[QUOTE=Hitman;1564146]E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T :yeah:

So it will work both ny using the stadimeter as per normal
can you explain a bit more please hitman ?

and also by dragging the wheel?
the wheel allows to choose the range right ?

It will need a scale for the TBT marks & Mast heigth in the inner wheel, right?
you've lost me... then again today my brain functions on a slow mode if at all :woot:

but I feel this is a superb addition to SH4 :salute:

I see that you have added tickmarks to the scope view , right ? so I guess I'll have to edit my japanese, french and british scopes to use it with them right ?



keltos

[CapnScurvy]

@ Hitman and Keltos01 and anyone else who's tuning in.

The range wheel I have on display with the images works with or without the use of the Stadimeter. They are independent of each other. Both will send their independantly found range data to the TDC.

The Stadimeter through its usual appearence by clicking on the specific button on the Attack Data Tool for the Americans, or the image of a....I don't know what you'd call it.... on the lower left of the Greman Notepad. Then sending the data after lining up the waterline second image on the height reference point.

The Range Dial will capture the mouse in the center of the dial and by dragging the wheel to the red Range line and clicking the send button (either American on the Attack Data Tool, or German on the Solution Notepad) the TDC will be updated to the Range Dials displayed range.

Nothing else needs to be done for the TBT or UZO. Both of these stations have the American Attack Data Tool or the German Solution Notepad available to them. The Range Dial is linked to the "Range" button found on them, having it appear when clicked, having it disappear when the Speed or AoB button is clicked. There is no need to have the height on the wheel since the Range Dial only inputs range to the TDC (and Position Keeper).

Keltos01, I don't think you need to do anything to your scope images if they are corrected to a 32 degree Field of View. The Telemeter divisions need to be spaced at 32 degrees horizontally and vertically. If they are, your set. The scope images I made are larger than stock (I just don't like the idea you seem to look through a port hole with the stock overlay) making it appear you have the eyepiece close to the eye. The fractional Telemeter divisions were put on to allow for a more precise measurement but they are not authentic. I will have an optional set of periscope and TBT/UZO overlays that will appear as authentic as possible (without the fractional marks or the light green color for the Periscope's).


BUT!!!

I'm needing some help!

With all this said, I can tell you if it sounds too good to be true it probably is!!

I finished the documentation and was going through the files, preparing to compress the download together, when I decided to run the various optional mods with the OTC to check one last time everything was in order. I changed my game resolution to 1600x1200 to see how things looked. To my surprise the Range Dial does not work!!!! Least wise not as it did when I had the game running at the base 1024x768 resolution!! The Range Dial would not respond when moused over. It will not capture the mouse and move the dial independently as it did at the 1024x768 resolution. I checked the German side of play, at the same resolution, same result. Tried the 1280x1024 resolution, same unresponsive result. Went back to the 1024x768 resolution and the Range Dial works beautifully!!!

I don't understand. In desperation, I've fiddled with the Dial.cfg entries. I've changed some of the parameters in the Menu_1024_768.ini file and nothing is making a difference (except for losing the dial functionality at the 1024x768 resolution). I would be happy to release the Range Dial as is, if we all used the 1024x768 game resolution, but that just isn't reality. Soooooo, I'm trying to think of an alternative process. I could try to rework the American Attack Data Tool directly and see if a better more readable dial would work. But, what about the German side? There's no dial set up there to rework, and if the Range Dial I made won't work at another resolution besides 1024x768 I'm dumb founded on what to do. This finding is like the Camera.dat file for the specific 1280x1024 resolution, where this one resolution requires a different AngularAngle figure than all others in order to have the Field of View in the periscopes set at 32 degrees!! I'm afraid the dev's may have us backed into a corner with the hard coded mess they left us.

[keltos01]

[QUOTE=CapnScurvy;1565688


Keltos01, I don't think you need to do anything to your scope images if they are corrected to a 32 degree Field of View.

sh... there we go again ! can you elaborate on that ?

f.i. : the surcouf :

attack scope :

camera parameter set at 62,4814 degrees (stock)

magnification : 1.1 and 6.0

obs scope

camera parameter set at 40.00 degrees (stock)

magnification : 1.1 and 2.0

I just remade the divisions etc.. from the original dds as a layout, adding my own then deleting stocks'

The Telemeter divisions need to be spaced at 32 degrees horizontally and vertically. If they are, your set.

The scope images I made are larger than stock (I just don't like the idea you seem to look through a port hole with the stock overlay) making it appear you have the eyepiece close to the eye.

I liked it, but on my screen I find the slide rule too big...

keltos

[CapnScurvy]

Before I try to answer Keltos questions, I've got good news.

I was able to get the Optical Targeting Correction "Range Dial" working for all resolutions!!! Making a new image, and having the "parent" of the Range Dial the "Attack Data Tool" instead of the "Range button" made the dial preform as intended. I'll need to do the same for the German Solution Notepad and link the Range Dial to it, then I'll see if this does not fix the problem on the German side of play as well. I'm thinking it should, but I'll not bet the farm on it just yet. If all goes as planned (and when in the world does THAT happen?!) I'll be releasing OTC soon.

===============

@ Keltos, those figures of the Attack Periscope "stock" AngularAngle of 62.4814 are wrong (I mean, they are incorrect if you expect to have a 32 degree Field of View). It's that parameter, and the stock magnification of 1.0 at low power/4.0 at high power, that gives the stock attack periscope the incorrect 36 degree wide Field of View (38 degree FoV for the 1280x1024 game resolution). It needs to have a FoV of 32 degrees. Look at the stock Telemeter divisions on the attack periscope lens. There are 32 division marks on the lens (top to bottom or left to right). The devs knew what to do; have the scopes FoV at the proper 32 degrees wide dimension. That's why there's 32 telemeter division marks on the scope. They just didn't do it when they made the "world view", which is made through the camera.dat file!!! Particularly the AngularAngle figure which decides the size of the world view for every "camera" screen the game uses.

That obs scope parameter of "40.00 degrees stock, magnification 1.1 and 2.0". Where did you get that? The "stock" observation periscope AngularAngle and magnification is the same as the attack periscope I listed above.

As far as the Omnimeter being too big, I found the "larger the better" to read the correct scale. Some time ago I had asked folks "What game resolution do you use"? Most were larger than 1280x1024. At those resolutions an Omnimeter better be large enough to read the fine print. That's why it takes up a lot of room at a 1024x768 resolution.

Thanks for your suggestion! :yeah:

[keltos01]

[QUOTE=CapnScurvy;1567477]Before I try to answer Keltos questions, I've got good news.
:D:D:D:yeah::woot:

@ Keltos, those figures of the Attack Periscope "stock" AngularAngle of 62.4814 are wrong (I mean, they are incorrect if you expect to have a 32 degree Field of View).
so should i set 32° instead ?

also, and i don't remember the exact figure, when at high power (6x for the IJN) the field of view should be in the magnitude of ? 10° only shouldn't it ? how do I get that, or is the FOV divided by the magnification at that level ?

stock obs periscope :
angular angle=62,4814


It's that parameter, and the stock magnification of 1.0 at low power/4.0 at high power, that gives the stock attack periscope the incorrect 36 degree wide Field of View (38 degree FoV for the 1280x1024 game resolution).



It needs to have a FoV of 32 degrees. Look at the stock Telemeter divisions on the attack periscope lens. There are 32 division marks on the lens (top to bottom or left to right). The devs knew what to do; have the scopes FoV at the proper 32 degrees wide dimension. That's why there's 32 telemeter division marks on the scope. They just didn't do it when they made the "world view",
:o

which is made through the camera.dat file!!! Particularly the AngularAngle figure which decides the size of the world view for every "camera" screen the game uses.
ok
That obs scope parameter of "40.00 degrees stock, magnification 1.1 and 2.0". Where did you get that? The "stock" observation periscope AngularAngle and magnification is the same as the attack periscope I listed above.
oops that must be my french one... I read someplace that the obs scope had a wide field and fixed magnification of 1.0
As far as the Omnimeter being too big, I found the "larger the better" to read the correct scale. Some time ago I had asked folks "What game resolution do you use"? Most were larger than 1280x1024. At those resolutions an Omnimeter better be large enough to read the fine print. That's why it takes up a lot of room at a 1024x768 resolution.
keltos


ps So as not to clog your optimeter thread with my ramblings I have decided to start a periscope FOV thread.

[CapnScurvy]

It's been a while since I've done anything with this thread, that doesn't mean I've been sitting on my hands though. I started to look at something innocently enough and let it take "a life all its own" before I finished.

A pet peeve of mine has been along the "Orders Bar" to rename the A-Scope.....A-Scope, and to correct the PPI name as well (the've always been backwards). Simple enough, just make a switch of the two names so they match correctly. When I hopped over to the German side, I discovered the names had switched and "they" now read incorrectly. Humpf!? What gives here? As I looked through the files I found the Radar portion was really a mess with incorrect naming, backward parameters (left means right, up takes you down), incorrect node parameters. I just had to take stock of what was wrong and take it a step at a time.

My first thing to do was to make an American and German mission, placing friendly ships and planes around a stationary sub, and let the stock game tell me what it sees. Below is an image of the American mission with several ships positioned around a sub. This image has a range ring drawn around the sub showing the 8000 yard distance the PPI radar is set to scan. Thirteen targets; no small profile ships, all CL or larger.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/USNavMap1.jpg


I noticed right away 13 targets did not show on the radar screen. Only a couple at a time on each sweep, different targets found on every sweep (sometimes a repeat, but it was just hit and miss). The sub is a Baleo class. The seas are calm, I always set the wind to zero when doing a test mission unless there's a reason to check during rough weather. The following images show successive sweeps within a couple of minutes of each other.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/ReallyNo1.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/No1USRadar.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/1stUSRadar.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/2ndUSRadar.jpg


So, from a visual point of view, the area around the sub looks like a parking lot, yet the radar picks up very little.


Lets look at the German radar and see what the stock game reveals with it. Here's the target ship setup found on the Navigation Map. 4 ships, with an additional Type IX German sub positioned to the rear Starboard of the Walther XXII.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/GermanNavMap.jpg


This is the PPI radar image. I didn't need to make successive pictures of the sweeps, they were all the same. The targets were picked up on each scan. No misses. The sub sitting off at about 500 yards was not picked up put I figured it was due to the close proximity and low profile of the sub.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/GermanRadar.jpg


What's this tell you?

The German side works as it should, the American side (which had better equipment), not so much.

Great, not only can't we get the game to name the radar scopes correctly we don't have them functioning as they should.

Below is just one file that specifies what the radar does. This image (actually I have both the American and German counterpart files in the image) has several highlighted differences.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/RadarDifferences.jpg


The opened node 39 of the "Sensors_Sub_US.sim" file (on the left side) is of the "Early SJ_Baleo_head" which is the type of antenna used on this particular sub. There are 5 specific types of antenna used on the various American subs with the "early war" heading (5 more that are called "late war"). The point is, all 5 of the "early" type have the same parameters as what is shown above.

Compare these parameter figures to the right side (Senzori_Uboat.sim file) with the node 61 open. This node represents the German "FuMO_64 antenna" (the very type that is installed on the Walther XXII used in the test mission). Notice the highlighted areas, and the differences found here. I'm not comparing which radar set has a maximum range parameter, I'm comparing generic parameters that allow the radar to work as it should.

The "Surface" parameter is a setting for how much of an area does it take to have an object be seen by the radar at the maximum distance. The smaller the parameter the better the pick-up. The German radar is set to 20 the Americans set to 100. That's a big difference considering the Allied radar was considered better than the Germans.

The "SkipSweep" parameter is supposed to allow or not allow a sweep of "invalid" sectors. Well, I don't know what an "invalid" sector is, but if the German side has it set to False, I believe so should the American.

The troubling area is in the circled "Elevation" parameter. Why is the American radar backwards to the German side? I don't know, but I can tell you this. When you place the American "Elevation" parameters for Max and Min something close to the German side, the Radar lights up like a Christmas tree with found targets!!

I'm not going to claim I'm the only guy to find why the American radar is messed up. For all I know there are dozens of reports to this topic and answers already made. I really don't know. BUT, I will tell you I've worked on the Radar to make it work as I think it should and made radar screen overlays to help a player figure range at the American A-Scope and PPI stations. I do know Hitman made an overlay some time ago and mine are somewhat like his. His work on this end was done first, I take no credit of what he solved as a means of reading radar blips and turning them into usable range estimates. I'm simply tying up some loose ends to enable a Range Dial that inputs distance to the TDC to work with a radar set that will provide another means of finding a targets distance.

[Nisgeis]

Invalid sectors are the places that the sensor in question cannot see if they sweep with an arc. For example, the sonar can't see (well OK, hear) between 170 and 190 and with SkipSweep, it will jump from 170 straight to 190 without having to traverse at the normal sweep speed through 170 - 190 degrees. If you watch the sonar station, you'll see the pointer skips faster over the propellers. For the US radar it doesn't matter if it's enabled or not, as the radar covers the whole range of 0 - 360 degrees (yes, that's right all 361 degrees :hmmm:).

[CapnScurvy]

Nisgeis, thanks for the description of the SkipSweep parameter.

You mentioned the 361 degree circle. I thought I'd try changing that considering the "jump" in the sweep hand near the 360 degree position. I suppose you tried it too, and found it didn't help. If I remember right, the radar "balked" at the change I made, and didn't even turn on.

I'm wondering if you ever noticed a "dead spot" with the radar (and sonar for that matter)? I'd have to look up notes I made years ago regarding a specific area that I remember was dead to sonar readings although a ship was sitting there. The area was to the port side of the sub, not quite at the 270 degree position. When I was making test missions for ship height adjustments I found a spot where a sonar reading wasn't able to find a target sitting just 1000 yards away. I learned to place targets more directly in front of the sub to avoid this behavior (least wise keep them ahead of the 270 port, 90 starboard bearing).

I've encountered this again with the radar. The previous American navigation map screen showing the various targets had a ship (a CV) positioned at the 263 degree relative bearing, at 3000 yard distance. The target never showed on the radar screens (PPI or A-Scope). I moved it to a different bearing, same distance and no problem finding it. The CV was moved to about the 300 degree bearing. :o

[Nisgeis]

The PPI scope object is too large for the shroud, so at a range of 8,000 yards, the objects at the extreme of that range are obscured by the 'hood' of the radar. Also in stock, it's 8,000 metres, which doesn't help.

What I do know is that the radar set you interface with and the radar sensor are not set up the same, but are based on the same sensor. It's been a while since I had the displeasure of testing the radar, but from what I remember the radar screen can be set up to not display things that the radar 'sensor' can see. The 'surface' attirube comes into play when it reaches about a million or so, any small value seem to have no effect at all. It also works the other way round, sometimes you can see things on the radar that your operator cannot - this is the same with the sonar, sometimes you can hear things that the sonar 'operator' cannot.

I've not had a problem with finding targets on a sweep at any bearings, but then I do use my own mod. During testing of the 3d TDC and radar mod, Hitman said that finding a target range with TMO was very frustrating as the pip would keep disappearing for long periods of time. More so than in stock. Weather affects the radar (waves obscue the target), so does aspect ratio, so does 'ProbInsideArc' percentage (which is the probability that if the target is within the detection arc that it will actually be detected), so do a number of other things that can all combine to cause you pain. Depending on your setup you may have more trouble than others.

[CapnScurvy]

Update on progress.

This [WIP] post seems to have a life all its own as I look at things I have always wanted to fix and wish to correct before I'm ready to release. I left off with looking at the Radar and wanting to put my 2 cents worth on the subject. Not only have I made a couple of radar screen "overlays" for the American PPI and A-Scope but made metric versions as well. The German side really doesn't need an overlay to read the blips since it has a handy digital readout, so I've left them alone (the German digital readout only reads in meters though, no imperial conversion, unless you do it yourself).

Below is the American A-Scope station, showing the "target bearing" dial and the scope screen. I've added the ability to "zoom" into the screen for a closer view.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/USAscopeStation.jpg


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/USA-Scope.jpg

This is an in-game screen shot of the maximum zoom feature at this station. You will be able to "move up" to the bearing dial to easily read the target bearing in question.

The A-scope has three range selections from the smallest of 4000 yards, next 32,000 yards, and the maximum of 60,000 yards distance. These three ranges are displayed on the "overlay" with the 4,000 along the bottom, the 60,000 yard range scale read at the top. I can't remove the games scale which is at the very bottom of the screen, so just ignore it. It's not a perfect world, but with the overlay you will get an accurate reading of what the radar picks up. If you were to read the games range scale (which does correctly state the selector is at the 4,000 yard range), the target ship spike would be somewhere around the 2800 yard distance. Not at all accurate.

I have the radar set to the 4000 yard range with the radar return spiking at the 3000 yard distance. The target is indeed sitting at about the 11 degree bearing at 3000 yards distance.

The following image has my PPI screen overlay added and zoomed in with the same target (this is an untouched screen shot, before snapping the picture I used the "delete" key to remove the orders bar from the bottom of the screen). The PPI station has three range scales to choose from. Starting at 8,000 yards, then 32,000 yards, and 80,000 yards range at maximum distance. The scale along the top left uses both the 8,000 and 80,000 distance, The right hand scale is used for the 32,000 yard setting. For this image, the range scale is set to the lowest 8,000 yard distance. The same target ship that I used for the A-scope is on the 3,000 yard line. If the radar sweep indicator were sitting on top of the blip, the relative bearing would be at the 11 degree mark. Correct for the actual target in question.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/USPPI.jpg


As I pointed out I have a metric version for both radar screens.

With the Range Dial (I've made earlier) that's over at the Attack Data tool, you will be able to input a radar found range to the TDC (up to a maximum range of 6,200 yards) for a manual firing solution input. With some of the changes I've made the PPI screen will now pick up aircraft. As in real life, telling the difference between an aircraft or surface craft return will be the speed in which the blip traverses the screen.

I know Hitman had a similar PPI radar screen mod; and Nisgeis had something similar for the A-Scope. In order to have the overlays visible I've had to ask for the permission of Nisgeis and Anvart to use their radar shader files. So, by no means have I developed something new. I have made it "workable" though. With the other changes I'm looking at, I hope to have the radar not only give accurate readings of bearing and range, but have the radar available to the player when it should within the time line of the game. I also expect the games upgrade to the newer units when the appropriate time arrives will be corrected too.

[Hitman]

Looks excellent :up:

I know Hitman had a similar PPI radar screen mod

The more, the merrier, and yours is much better than the one I did :yep:

[WH4K]

Wow, I had no idea the game optics were so screwed up. I'm glad someone's fixing them!

Likewise for the radar. I had a feeling it was occasionally failing to pick up stuff that should be there, but didn't know it was that bad. I haven't played any German missions yet, so have no experience with that radar.

I did wonder why the A-scope and PPI had different range settings on the low end (3000 vs. 8000 yards).

[CapnScurvy]

WH4K, the stock game lowest range settings for the A-Scope (3,000 yards) and PPI (8,000 yards) are the real life distances that some of the units actually had. Although other units made at different times had various range capabilities. The fact is, there were different configurations of radar units used. Some (like what the game has), used both A-Scope and PPI screens (when they became available) for the surface search units. Others may have had only an A-Scope screen for surface searching. The Air Search SD radar unit usually had only an A-Scope screen (of course this station is not simulated in the game). So, there is a bit of creative license used in making up the radar configuration.

I have the A-Scope unit having a selected range of 4,000, 32,000 and 60,000 yards due to the fact these distances are multiples of each other, making a single "overlay" possible for the screen. The same with my 8,000, 32,000, and 80,000 yard selectable PPI ranges. They are multiples of each other as well. Although in the real world, you would have equipment that need not be multiples of each range, the game uses a different process to render its returns. So, I had to follow the path of least resistance to have all ranges read an accurate radar return.

In my opinion, the American side of the radar game play was really just for show. One screen is red, the other green; pretty aren't they? It revolves, and has a guy standing over them, even when they aren't installed and operational. Just eye candy. In the stock game form, they are worthless.

=======================

You mentioned you "felt" something was wrong about the radar not picking up targets. I get the impression you read my post (just a ways back in this thread) that pointed out the stock radar inability to pick up targets when they were directly in front of you. What I didn't show you in that post is what you're missing when a radar is "tuned" to be operational.

Below is the same group of ships I used for the "stock" radar test. The sub has a heading of due west, 270 degrees bearing.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/NavMapRadarcopy.jpg



Here's what my PPI radar screen picks up on its first sweep, at the lowest 8,000 yard setting.



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/PPIofNavMap.jpg


All twelve targets are visible, and at the correct range and bearing from the sub. Will the radar show every target in all kinds of weather and distances? No, there are factors that still come into play to make the radar not be an absolute accurate device. To me that's good, I don't want it to be a "Gods Eye" overlooking game play. But, it will work as intended which has been my goal.

[vanjast]

Any idea of the time scale for the sliderule thingy.. looks nice :)

[Hitman]

and the maximum of 60,000 yards distance

Scurvy I just remembered that according to Nisgeis the game will not load any unit that is more than 40km away from you (And consequently will not show them in the radar screen). For that reason I modified the scales in my radar mod and gave them a maximum of 40000 metres (~40400 yards) because I could have increased precision in the scale as it is smaller than a 60.000 one.

Just in case you find it useful :up:

[keltos01]

I took a little break from SH4 but what I find when I come back is truly nice work !

good work Captnscurvy !

I've been playing DW of late :oops: (SH5 won't run on my rig sadly ?)

regards

keltos

[WH4K]

Scurvy I just remembered that according to Nisgeis the game will not load any unit that is more than 40km away from you (And consequently will not show them in the radar screen). For that reason I modified the scales in my radar mod and gave them a maximum of 40000 metres (~40400 yards) because I could have increased precision in the scale as it is smaller than a 60.000 one.

Just in case you find it useful :up:
It occurs to me that the 80000 yard setting on the radar is wishful thinking at best, regardless of game engine limits.

According to this radar/visual horizon calculator (http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm), the radar horizon for a notional submarine radar is only about 26 km.

That's assuming a 10 m antenna height and a target at least 10 m off the water. Reduce either number and the maximum range shrinks further.

Furuno USA, a maritime radar manufacturer, puts the radar horzion at around 6% greater than the visual horizon (http://www.furunousa.com/LearningCenter/Radar-Horizon-Calculator.aspx). Using the above assumptions, their calculator generates a result of 13 nautical miles or 24 km.

The numbers can vary a lot, depending on the assumptions used - antenna height, radar wavelength, sea state, atmospheric absorption model, and so on.

Given those numbers, it seems reasonable to pin our fleet boat radar's maximum detection range at no more than 25-30 km.

Displaying "only" a 40 km radius is therefore more than sufficient.

[CapnScurvy]

Scurvy I just remembered that according to Nisgeis the game will not load any unit that is more than 40km away from you (And consequently will not show them in the radar screen). For that reason I modified the scales in my radar mod and gave them a maximum of 40000 metres (~40400 yards) because I could have increased precision in the scale as it is smaller than a 60.000 one.

Just in case you find it useful :up:

Thanks again Hitman, I too have found this to be the case with the stock game not rendering a radar object over 30,000 yards or about 17 miles. I've set aircraft out over 25 miles from the sub and the stock game will pick them up through the navigation map well before the radar unit displays it. I believe the stock game does this to compensate for the lack of an air search (SD) radar station. The nav map is its answer to having an air search scope screen.

In truth that's not so bad considering the SJ-1 radar was only reliable to maybe 30,000 yards (17 miles) with an antenna height of 33 ft, and only that was with the larger ships as targets (BB's, CV's and large merchants). The real life SD radar was about the same at finding a large plane over 1000 ft high, maybe 20 miles out at best for a reliable range. So, I'm not too worried about the PPI or A-Scope radars not picking up further out. If anything, the stock game having a plane displayed on the navigation map at much greater distances would seem to be a larger problem.

I see what you mean about being able to be more precise if you can top out the range to maximise its potential. I know you know the real life units had the capabilities of the A-Scope of switching between the 3,000, 20,000 and 60,000 yard ranges. The PPI between 8,000, 40,000 and 80,000 yard ranges. Did they ever pick up anything out at the max limit? I'd guess yes, radio signals can do strange things (ever have a short wave radio and pick up stations half way around the world with rabbit ears?). Was the maximum range "reliable"? Nope, I'd guess not. So, maximum range can be exceeded from time to time but reliable ranges of 17 miles or less was the norm.

I'm not really looking at wanting the radar to give me nuts accurate range. Least not at long distances. The help the radar unit provides is the ability to see further than what the human eye can see, and over the horizon where we can't see at all. I do expect it to find a target at a reasonable distance though, especially if its within eye sight of the sub. Having the stock game miss that kind of target is just wrong.


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Vanjast, I've just completed a PDF "Using Radar" to describe the American and German radar used in the game. I'm going over the Change Log files to update them and finishing the other documentation. Outside of this, I'll be ready to send it out very soon.

[Husksubsky]

nothing for sh 5 capn?

[CapnScurvy]

nothing for sh 5 capn?


No Husksubsky, I don't own the game.

I'm working on a version for SH4 patched to only 1.4 (as promised). I don't plan to leave out those that didn't buy into the idea of playing the German side in the Pacific was a good idea.

Sorry, my heart isn't in playing the German side anyway. Silent Hunter (the first edition) is where this game franchise should have stayed with it's campaign. Guess I'm just too close to "The Greatest Generation" to see it any other way. To clarify, I'm not a part of it, but my father certainly was. I'm just a full fledged, early on, "Baby Boomer" who's father's stories of his service in the Pacific revealed the hatred, and horrific conflict that front line soldiers (Ground Pounders) dealt with. He was overseas for almost three years (Army Armor division), losing his cousin who he entered the Army with, and later his younger brother who wanted to follow in his "big brother's" footsteps. Both are MIA's.

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Regarding Optical Targeting Correction (I should have added this information into this thread earlier), the [Released] version can be found HERE (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181172).