What is SH4 still missing.

[Armistead]

When SH5 came out, the life of SH4 was in doubt, however, it's actually thrived with recent mods.

The game just gets better, still not the perfect game, but a great game.
What else would you like to see added? I won't mention more ships, because they're working on the new JP traffic mod, ship skins, ect..will be a great mod.

One thing I hate is TF speed. I've seldomed run into a TF that I couldn't overcome, although some do hit 20kts or more. We shouldn't be able to sink capital ships at will because of slow speed. I would love to see TF hit realistic speeds so attacking them would really be a run. I'll never forget chasing the Santa Cruz TF going 19 kts. I was behind it, but with it zigging over about 3 days I finally got around it. The majority of large TF go between 14-17kts...very unrealistic.

Night surface attack ability. Under the right conditions, light fog, no moon or against a black sky, be nice to get within decent attack range..

[Diopos]

TFs operate with fuel efficiency in mind, too and as permitted by their mission/ojective etc. More "variable" TFs (speedwise) sounds OK though...

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[tater]

DD endurance drops precipitously with speed. Larger ships can steam at higher speeds for longer periods.

In addition, while TFs might have sometimes steamed faster, they would have used complex ZZ patterns, which would have slowed their rate of advance.

[Sailor Steve]

Which is why ship-to-ship refueling was used. Standard cruise speed for all warships in World War Two was 15 knots.

[tater]

Yep. Underway replenishment was actually new to the IJN just before the start of the war.

[Armistead]

I think it would be better to give them unlimited fuel to mimmick being refueled at sea rather than go at slower speeds. Certainly a better zig pattern would be a nice addition other than the little zig they do when noticed, even then they usually slow down. I like the better zig pattern Duc included with TMO, but still not enough.

In about 90% of the books I've read most capital ships were missed due to speed. You only find a few times where subs were able to do end arounds.

[tater]

Real ZZ patterns are pretty much impossible. I made some using RL patterns, and more than a few crashes the editor since each route is 10s of thousands of waypoints.

BTW, if you think 14-17 is too slow, what is the basis for that? Do you have TROM data that suggests far faster speeds?

[WernherVonTrapp]

Captain Tameichi Hara:
an excerpt from Japanese Destroyer Captain (Pg. 45) speaking of a TF assembly immediately prior to the Pearl Harbor attacks:
"After giving up the chase of the submarine, I turned around and joined the other ships. Presently we were joined by the carrier Ryujo, with two heavy cruisers and two destroyers out of Palau. The 12-ship task force assembled in a ring formation, boosted speed to 18 knots, headed straight to the west. We were soon out on the wide ocean, out of sight of all land, and even of other ships. From time to time a school of dolphins would catch the eye, but aside from them there was only sea and sky."
Previous to this section, he spoke of sweeping the area with sonar at 12 knots to guard against a sub radioing their ship movements. I don't know about unlimited fuel but, I've already seen TFs travelling at many different speeds, split about evenly between 12 and 22 knots (RFB/RSRDC).

[Armistead]

Would be interesting to know how the game programs speed for different legs. Reading a book on Midway and mentioned how they left port at 12kts, but sped up to 24kts exiting the Bungo, concerned over US submarines. I think I read the crusing speed of the Shokaku was 18kts for about 9700nms.

I think the bigger failure of the game is TF usually slow down once spotted, when they should speed up to antisubmarine speed. Just studying the different Midway TF, speed changed from 14 to 25kts, the day of battle.

[tater]

You set them in the mission editor to whatever you like (legs of a trip).

[Armistead]

I think that was a given, just that if fuel is limited, I assume that is the reason the legs are slower. Maybe Lurker set different speeds for different legs of some of the major TF's, just seems in game they remain steady.

I think Duc increased some speeds in his traffic redo with TMO. I did run into faster convoys and TF.

The bigger issue is why do TF slow down when attacked or a sub is spotted, seems they would speed up

[tater]

No, the speeds were probably set to the actual rate of advance since his TFs and convoys leave at the right times, and arrive at the right times.

Set them at higher speeds, and they will arrive too soon. The only way around this is to then have more ZZs. In scripted groups in the editor, you can actually display the travel times. But this does not happen with "random" groups, even when the arrival time of the group is set to the minute. When I was working on this (just to eyeball rate of advance of ZZing groups) I made "scripted" units with the same ZZ code in the automated mission editor, then looked at the arrival time for various speeds. This would have been a stunning amount of work for RSRDC... an impossible amount of work, frankly.

What any good game would really need would be:

Organic zig zag support. Meaning that there should be a text file with various ZZ patterns, and ships can then do those as a waypoint parameter.

The editor should show total travel time, and Rate of Advance for groups to aid the mission creator.

If you wanted to mess with this, you'd need to up the speeds, then alter the routes to use up the saved time (some ships put into port, then might leave the next day, so arriving to the minute is required). You'll need to then make sure you didn't screw up the delay times (the editor resets them to 60 minutes automatically, so the last thing you have to do is hand edit them on the text file).

[Armistead]

Do you know what triggers the slow downs when you attack a TF? I assume it's in connection with the zigs starting.

Have little modding skills, but wondered what triggers how ships react when attacked. Many times the ships will take off in different directions, circle, ect.. Usually convoys do this. TF just seem to slow down and start zigging. If something triggers a slow down from the set leg speed, seems like you could trigger a speed increase instead for a period of time.

Course different groups react different when attacked and strange things can happen. Usually they will go back into formation and speed up some, but remain zigging why in your contact zone.

Maybe there is an option here, instead of playing with speeds, ect..

[Bubblehead1980]

SH 4 is still great esp with superb mods like TMO and RFB and the many smaller mods like vickers interior overhauls, the 3D TDC.

My two biggest pet peeves right now are the effectiveness of IJN radar(in RL it well sucked) and the visual sensors that prevent you from performing night surface attacks as skippers like O Kane did.Would be great to be able to get inside a convoy at night on surface and attack.At least be able to safely get within 2000 yards at night on a convoy, rarely can I do this.Usually have to shoot from 2500-3000, kind of annoying.

[Bubblehead1980]

SH 4 is still great esp with superb mods like TMO and RFB and the many smaller mods like vickers interior overhauls, the 3D TDC.

My two biggest pet peeves right now are the effectiveness of IJN radar(in RL it well sucked) so in the game you cant attack a convoy with a radar equipped escort on surface where in RL they did, and often. and the visual sensors that prevent you from performing night surface attacks as skippers like O Kane did.Would be great to be able to get inside a convoy at night on surface and attack.At least be able to safely get within 2000 yards at night on a convoy, rarely can I do this.Usually have to shoot from 2500-3000, kind of annoying

[WernherVonTrapp]

I was running at 40' depth and received a "Ship Spotted" report from one of my POs, it would've been nice to be able to radio-in that contact report while at radar depth. Weren't fleetboats actually able to do this with the SD radar antenna?

[NorthBeach]

Just curious, why would you want to turn on your radio? No good ever comes of it.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Just curious, why would you want to turn on your radio? No good ever comes of it. I was assigned to a task force that was supporting the Leyte Gulf invasion. Part of my assignment included radioing any warship contacts. I spotted element of Kurita's Center Force but was too close to surface. I just thought there might be some renown in it for me since it was part of my initial assignment.:hmmm:

[NorthBeach]

Between Halsey and Kinkaid they have around 1500 planes out there that can fly over 250mph. And, they want YOU to radio in? What next? They gonna have you surface in the middle of the TF and set your boat on fire as a marker?

No thanks. Sparky's yammering has brought us trouble before. So, I took the tubes out of his radio. 10 miles out of port I'll stomp on them and let him reinstall them. "Sorry, Sir. Radio's on the fritz."

[Armistead]

It's a shame we don't get renown for reporting contacts. Some of the sub contacts really gave important info that maybe saved the battle. I'm not sure of the range ships pick you up if you actually report them, but seeing that the only thing you get for reporting contacts is the enemy homing in on you, no incentive to do it...be a nice mod, bigger the convoy or TF, more renown.

[Sailor Steve]

Why would you get renown for doing something anyone could do. You get renown for sinking ships. That's what a submarine war is about.

[Armistead]

C'mon Steve, you're smarter than that. The use of a sub is more than sinking ships. In fact many subs were given the job of reporting contacts with a no shoot order.


Not anyone can report a contact..To report a convoy or TF you must get a visual. The fact is reports saved the day many times. In some cases subs were told not to attack even if they could, just report the contact.

Can't remember the one sub that let a large TF go right over him, came back up later and reported it as instructed. Believe this was the battle of the Philippine Sea. The Skipper was furious he had to follow instructions and dive, but the obvious logic was clear, they didn't want the enemy to know they had been located. A sub attacks, the enemy will then assume the sub has reported it's location, course, speed, ect...That's a lot of important info, certainly it should be worth some renown. I believe this skipper later went back and sunk one of the carriers he reported.

In the game there is no reason to use the contact button, in fact they're reasons you don't want to use it. It only works in favor of the JP's, so why use it. Getting some renown would make it realistic and give it function. Even better, get more points for reporting TF's over convoys as they can pick it up and bigger targets.

[Diopos]

You always report or log activity in enemy territory.

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[WernherVonTrapp]

Well, now, I realize that anyone can report the location of any ol' Maru in this game but, that's not what I was referring do. Anyway, that aside:

Despite it being historical fact that important strategic information about Japanese warship movements and positions were radioed by submarines, consequently proving to be invaluable to the Pacific Fleet.

Despite the fact that the ability to radio contact reports is an included ability.

Despite the fact that this is a submarine simulation (unless I'm wrong).

The title of this thread is what prompted my input.:O:

[Marko]

There was always that I missed from the silent hunter series. I don't know if it is possible but in any station where you can do an observation(periscope, UZO, Hydrophone, Radar) a button that should do only this simple thing. TO place a mark on the map of my position at the moment that I press it and the time.

This would allow me to not jump continuously from map to any other station and make a plotting in a more relaxed way.

(I don't know if there is something like that in SHV)

[tomoose]

I still think that one little and yet important detail which was available in the previous version and yet only marks a bloody 'X' in this version....GAAAAAAAAAAAHH!! That damn pencil. :D

If you could type in just a few words instead of that 'X' it would add so much IMHO. I seem to remember Silent Service II you could do it and THAT is an 'older' game.

Having said that, at least with an 'X' you can mark something although too many 'X's and you end up being confused (well, I do, so there).:03:

[Armistead]

I've only played SH4, it amazes me the cool stuff they left out from previous versions.

[Sailor Steve]

C'mon Steve, you're smarter than that. The use of a sub is more than sinking ships. In fact many subs were given the job of reporting contacts with a no shoot order.
You get famous for going above and beyond.

[WernherVonTrapp]

You get famous for going above and beyond. Does that include the renown you get for sinking a Sampan or a Fishing Boat?:03:

[Sailor Steve]

Does that include the renown you get for sinking a Sampan or a Fishing Boat?:03:
An excellent point. But then, there are those who see the renown system as totally wrong anyway.

[ElAurens]

It's missing the great new Narhwal in TMO.

:03:

[Bothersome]

It would be kind of nice to have to watch out for enemy subs out hunting, me included.

You might not just wanna be speeding along, not listening, and boom,..

Could subs hear other subs at reasonable ranges?

There might be subs out there just waiting for somebody new to come along.

And, where are all the rest of the subs hunting? Why does it feel like I'm alone in fighting this war?

I realize it might be beyond the games abilities to do these things.

[Armistead]

Bothersome, sounds like your talking more online play. I've never played online with other subs before, but from what I hear it lacks so much not worth it. I don't even know if you can play in campaign mode. I assume the problem is time compression. Be nice if you could play with friends online in campaign mode using TC, just don't know. What else would be cool if your friends could actually crew the same sub. Think of the fun, 8 people crew a convoy with DD's and your friends could join you in your sub. I wouldn't mind running a DD trying to protect a convoy from other players.

[WernherVonTrapp]

It would be kind of nice to have to watch out for enemy subs out hunting, me included.

You might not just wanna be speeding along, not listening, and boom,..

Could subs hear other subs at reasonable ranges?

There might be subs out there just waiting for somebody new to come along.

And, where are all the rest of the subs hunting? Why does it feel like I'm alone in fighting this war?

I realize it might be beyond the games abilities to do these things.I would imagine that the frequency of sub-to-sub encounters was extremely rare, though not impossible. I think there was a total of 16 I-Boats lost to American Fleetboats, but that's over the entire 5 years of warfare. There have been other players who have encountered and sunk some enemy subs, though I haven't found any yet either. Still, I think the frequency with which SHIV renders them is about on par with reality. As Armistead mentioned, it would be rather difficult, aside from the online multi-player aspect, for the sim's AI to produce a wolf-pack that you could actually work with. Would be interesting if you could though.

[ancient46]

I would like to see a realistic crew management system. Using one half the renown for experience makes this a joke.
Control of 4 engines would be a boost to realism. Too bad it is hard coded and can't be changed.

[fastfed]

Using batteries on the surface would be great too, and controling each screw.

[hotrod1525]

I'm on my 4th patrol abord the USS Pampono SS-118, and just recently read that it was one of the Subs on eternal patrol. I'm am so pround to be aboard and just want to thank whoever idea it was to include these boats whether it was stock or TMO. I consider it a real honor to be able to sail on one of these boats and give them new life. Thank you again