Game Bug?

[JokerOfFate]

Ok. I think I've now calm down now. Now heres what happened:
I was going to attack a convoy all I had to do was wait I knew where it was heading and I was sitting in my chokepoint waiting my battery was low so I surfaced and there it is a Trible Destroyer.

I had no warning from my Hydrophone and he was 3000m away going 36knots heading right for me.
He was going so fast that I wouldn't even had time to dive, so I used the UZO to fire a fast steam eel at him, he out runs it and every other one I fired at him.

I man the deck gun first shot blows his front guns off and then I use the flak to take off the rest. Then he keeps on trying to ram me, for an hour and a half real time. I hit him all the flak gun ammo, Star shells and HE shells I had he still was afloat. He was also still going 36knots even after I hit his propeller 50 times (No joke) to try to slow him down a bit.

It ended with him right behind me (1m) and us both going west, I couldn't go left or right or he would ram me in the end he hit my stern by out running me "Destroying the U boat".

1) Why did he not sink, slow down or at least run away.
2) Why was he so fast? It was only 1940 I only had steam or electric.
3) Why do all destroyers try to ram you its cheap its an instant kill
you don't get a chance to repair unless you're really lucky.

That was a damn good patrol too!:damn:

[Jimbuna]

You've obviously met a DD with 'elite' status.

Are you playing stock/vanilla SH3?

[ediko]

Where's that "BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!" advice I usually see here? If DD try's to ram you don't run away respond with the same, after all you still have your net-cutters in 1940 don't you? Go deck's awash ram him and open his hull like a tin can!

Alright now what I don't get is why you kept playing with him? just submerge and run away. Surely you had enough time if you managed to fire your eels, deck gun and flaks? I doubt any Kaleun actually stayed on surface and fired his deck gun at a destroyer.

[Weiss Pinguin]

A surfaced U-boat against a destroyer (any year of the war) has the same chance of survival as one of these:
http://hr-rna.com/RNA/images/Spiders/Garage%20Wolf%20rez.jpg

against one of these:
http://www.uwlax.edu/soe/news/images/NewspaperRoll.jpg

So next time, run away!

1) Why did he not sink, slow down or at least run away.
If you don't hit them at the waterline, ships can stay afloat for quite a while, even if you wreck their decks and superstructure. Next time you decide to tangle with a DD, direct all your fire to just below the waterline, and don't bother going for the propellers, you're chances of hitting those are next to none.

2) Why was he so fast? It was only 1940 I only had steam or electric.
Destroyers are fast and maneuverable, and your chances of hitting an alert escort with torpedoes are slim at best. With steamer torpedoes you have a little better chance since you can adjust their speed, but they leave a nice long wake behind them. Electrics are more stealthy but restricted to slower speeds, and a maneuvering destroyer will most likely evade them.

3) Why do all destroyers try to ram you its cheap its an instant kill
you don't get a chance to repair unless you're really lucky.
It sounds like you disabled the guns on this one, which doesn't leave much options, and besides that ramming is fast and effective. Which is why you should sound the ALAAAAAAAAAAAAARM as soon as you're caught on the surface.

[U777]

2) Why was he so fast? It was only 1940 I only had steam or electric.

Most warships had steam turbines vs the much slower reciprocating engines that merchants have.

[Draka]

Tribal Class:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=1

Max speed 36 knots

Quick, ain't it?

[Gerald]

http://imgur.com/EB6kC.jpg

[JokerOfFate]

I couldn't dive he was up my aft (lol) the whole time.
The only reason I had time to fire an eel man deck and flak is because I used shortcuts.

But my main question is why didn't it sink?
I did hit it, alot of times, below the waterline thats where I placed a lot of my shots.

Elite status it wasn't skilled it just wouldn't die.

Weiss Pinguin its hard but you just need some exp. in the art of surfaced attacks just before then I attack two hunt 1s and a Tribal destroyer surfaced and won a pretty easy battle the Hunt Is went down in 20-30 hit and the Trible took about 50 before I sunk it with an eel not with my deck gun. P.S. It was going to ram me from the start.

[K-61]

You're definitely not playing with a more realistic mod like GWX. The stock game makes surface combat between U-boats and escorts an arcade experience. In real life, no U-boat ever sunk a destroyer with gunfire. A destroyer, frigate or corvette had at least one main gun and many other smaller caliber weapons, like AA guns and even handheld guns. They would open up on a surfaced U-boat with everything they had and any U-boat crewmen touching a gun were the first priority. The decks were raked with gunfire and the only way of surviving a sinking U-boat was to dive into the water.

GWX makes surface combat much more realistic. The U-boat was a terrible gun platform, rocking back and forth and making accurate aiming problematic. A larger vessel like an escort was more stable and thus enjoyed greater accuracy and rates of fire.

Ramming was a primitve but effective tactic. It was difficult to kill a U-boat with depth charges alone. A surfaced U-boat could potentially submerge at any time and thus be harder again to kill. Ramming it was an immediate means of killing it or making it unable to dive. U-boats ramming other ships? A U-boat's hull was much more fragile than a surface vessel's and since it needed to retain its integrity in order to dive, ramming was not an option for a U-boat commander. That vaunted net cutter would crumple very easily against a destroyer's hull and likely damage the U-boat's hull; it was soon done away with as it was a failure at cutting nets.

[Jimbuna]

The AI can act in a variety of ways and one of the most common for escorts is to see them losing their waypoint and steam steadily onward or create an invisible loop that leads them toward the original task presented to them ie the convoy.

In this case it simply didn't happen but IMHO this variable AI is one of the strengths of the game.

[ediko]

You're definitely not playing with a more realistic mod like GWX. The stock game makes surface combat between U-boats and escorts an arcade experience. In real life, no U-boat ever sunk a destroyer with gunfire. A destroyer, frigate or corvette had at least one main gun and many other smaller caliber weapons, like AA guns and even handheld guns. They would open up on a surfaced U-boat with everything they had and any U-boat crewmen touching a gun were the first priority. The decks were raked with gunfire and the only way of surviving a sinking U-boat was to dive into the water.

GWX makes surface combat much more realistic. The U-boat was a terrible gun platform, rocking back and forth and making accurate aiming problematic. A larger vessel like an escort was more stable and thus enjoyed greater accuracy and rates of fire.

Ramming was a primitive but effective tactic. It was difficult to kill a U-boat with depth charges alone. A surfaced U-boat could potentially submerge at any time and thus be harder again to kill. Ramming it was an immediate means of killing it or making it unable to dive. U-boats ramming other ships? A U-boat's hull was much more fragile than a surface vessel's and since it needed to retain its integrity in order to dive, ramming was not an option for a U-boat commander. That vaunted net cutter would crumple very easily against a destroyer's hull and likely damage the U-boat's hull; it was soon done away with as it was a failure at cutting nets.

Probably should have written that it's a joke. Though I did think it's pretty obvious :-? Kinda hard to see sarkasm in internet, failed to see it myself quite a few times too :)

[JokerOfFate]

I do have GWX on the unstable gun platform was the reason I hit its gun.
I got a lot of exp. in surfaced combat, GWX makes it hard but it just means you need a bit more skill:

You need to know which guns to hit first.
You need to know your enemys ship.
You need to know the limits of your boat and her crew.
You need to manage several conpartments at once.
and have a very highly skilled repair team.

If the enemy turns the tables on you dive as far as the boat will go.
The U boat I had there went to about 200m and I could hold her there
untill we ran out of air or batterys.

Besides it adds a whole new level to the game.

Also its a smart way to trick the enemy because if a U-boat/sub spots an enemy it will dive to attack or evade. It works wonders too the enemy think they have the element of surpraise but in fact your waiting for them and enemy ship don't zig-zag unless they know you're attacking them.
:ping: :ping: :ping:

[Jimbuna]

I do have GWX on the unstable gun platform was the reason I hit its gun.
I got a lot of exp. in surfaced combat, GWX makes it hard but it just means you need a bit more skill:

You need to know which guns to hit first.
You need to know your enemys ship.
You need to know the limits of your boat and her crew.
You need to manage several conpartments at once.
and have a very highly skilled repair team.

If the enemy turns the tables on you dive as far as the boat will go.
The U boat I had there went to about 200m and I could hold her there
untill we ran out of air or batterys.

Besides it adds a whole new level to the game.

Also its a smart way to trick the enemy because if a U-boat/sub spots an enemy it will dive to attack or evade. It works wonders too the enemy think they have the element of surpraise but in fact your waiting for them and enemy ship don't zig-zag unless they know you're attacking them.
:ping: :ping: :ping:

An escort bearing down on a confirmed contact in GWX3.0 will zig zag towards the target.

[JokerOfFate]

Yes but the thing is thats an escort :DL


Besides the question that still needs to be anwsered why didn't it sink?




(I know I'm sounding like an ass at the minute sorry but I'm just steamed about losing my career to the ship that can't sink)

[Gerald]

(I know I'm sounding like an ass at the minute sorry but I'm just steamed about losing my career to the ship that can't sink)[/QUOTE]

HMS Daring (C&D classes)
HMS Arrow (A&B classes)
HMS Repulse (Renown class)
HMS Acheron (A&B classes)
HMS Liverpool (Southampton class)
HMS Hood (HMS Hood)
SS Flying Arrow (Medium Cargo)
HMS Javelin (J&K classes)
HMS Renown (Renown class)
HMS Arunta (Tribal class)
HMS Walker (V&W classes)
HMS Witherington (V&W classes)
HMS Anthony (A&B classes)
SS Penolver (Small Merchant)
HMCS Fraser (C&D classes)
HMS Revenge (Revenge class)
HMS Boadicea (A&B classes)
HMS Kipling (J&K classes)
HMS Dorsetshire (Dorsetshire class)
HMS Kashmir (J&K classes)
HMS Glasgow (Southampton class)
MV J. Rich Steers (Tugboat)
HMS Devonshire (London class)
HMS Norfolk (Dorsetshire class)
HMS Westminster (V&W classes)
HMS Kimberley (J&K classes)
HMS Wolverine (V&W classes)
HMS Tartar (Tribal class)
HMCS Haida (Tribal class)
HMS Nootka (Tribal class)
HMS Sussex (London class)
SS Hastings (Coastal Freighter)
HMAS Australia (Kent class)
HMS Manchester (Southampton class)
HMS Jervis (J&K classes)
HMS Jaguar (J&K classes)
HMS Bulldog (A&B classes)
HMS Duncan (C&D classes)
HMS Decoy (C&D classes)
HMS Winchester (V&W classes)
HMS Brilliant (A&B classes)
HMS Warwick (V&W classes)
HMS Brazen (A&B classes)
SS Brynhild (Small Freighter)
HMS Woolston (V&W classes)
HMS Achates (A&B classes)
HMS Vanity (V&W classes)
HMS Jupiter (J&K classes)
HMS Ardent (A&B classes)
HMS Boreas (A&B classes)
HMS Eskimo (Tribal class)
HMS Nelson (HMS Nelson)
HMS Jersey (J&K classes)
HMS Implacable (Illustrious class)
HMCS Ottowa (C&D classes)
HMCS Iroquois (Tribal class)
HMS Gurkha (Tribal class)
HMCS Restigouche (C&D classes)
HMS Afridi (Tribal class)
HMS Basilisk (A&B classes)
HMS Warramungu (Tribal class)
HMS Defender (C&D classes)
HMS Rodney (HMS Rodney)
SS Tacoma (Large Merchant)

What you will have, just like us, comes from my second career and now in 1940

[JokerOfFate]

Mr Doe could you rephrase that I'm a soldier not an English teacher. :know:

To answer your first question every second I wasted meant that the convoy was a second closer so I needed to act fast.

A uboat has many advantages, such as it's small hard for a warship to hit at short range due to its guns being elevated, Not just stealth.

(I can tell you've got a good deal of exp.)

[Gerald]

:yep:

[JokerOfFate]

You talking to me or Mr Doe
eitherway Thanks Vendor and remember
"Don't feed the Eels"
:D

[Gerald]

You talking to me or Mr Doe
eitherway Thanks Vendor and remember
"Don't feed the Eels"
:D Thanks for the tip :up:

[Madox58]

All I can say is this:
GWX has NO bugs!
WTF is that,
Where did that come froms,
How did that get messed ups,
Who left this or that outs,
And a few oops.
(MAYBE!)
But NO BUGS!
:har:

[Weiss Pinguin]

But NO BUGS!
:har:
All 'features' ;)

[Madox58]

:haha:
Yes.
Features.
BUT!!
Any BUGS were, and remain, STOCK SH3 BUGS!
GWX did not introduce any new creepy crawlies!
Most of the save Games issues?
StarForce!
CTDs in some areas if you zoom view?
StarForce!
I could go on and on about this.
But I won't.
:03:

[Madox58]

That quote has nothing to do with SH3.
Why would you even use it?
:hmmm:
SH5 has nothing to do with SH3 issues.

[JokerOfFate]

Ok guys, Good news I ran some tests last night and I found out that this is a stock game bug that is also in GWX, The only way you can sink a Trible Destroyer is with an eel the deck gun will not sink it.

[Jimbuna]

Ok guys, Good news I ran some tests last night and I found out that this is a stock game bug that is also in GWX, The only way you can sink a Trible Destroyer is with an eel the deck gun will not sink it.

You might also want to bear in mind that 'by your own description' all the damage was above the waterline therefore no or little flooding will have occured.

Pleased your sorted.

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[desirableroasted]

I guess it is how you enjoy the game, but since the game is about sinking merchants, many merchants, over many months, I do wonder why anyone would choose to engage a Tribal if he didn't have to. Exp in GWX.

I have done so 100 or so times in "training" plays (games that went bad that I recreate just to run the scenario again). I'm sunk about 80% of the times I choose to fight.

What I have learned:


The Tribal will sink after 3-4 shots below the waterline, though not immediately. Getting those hits when you are at flank speed and evading is difficult even with a very good crew.
Because the Tribal is faster and nimbler, and can bear guns from almost any angle (I can only shoot 270-0-90), he gets at least 2-3 hits for my one. His hits also kill crew, whereas my hits don't "kill" anyone.
In 80-90% of the scenarios where I dive rather than fight, I escape.

Takeaway: if arcade shooting is your thing, by all means bang away at Tribals. Heck, take on a Dido or the Nelson on the surface. But don't tell me you are doing it successfully except as flukes.

[JokerOfFate]

Destroy its weapons with your flak or deck gun then hit it below the waterline. I wasn't playing arcade I was playing 100% realism. :dead:

[CherryHarbey]

JokerofFate, you say you play GWX on 100% realism but your original post says you fired star shells at this destroyer, how?

[Weiss Pinguin]

IIRC there are several mods that let you use starshells and other stock ammunition.

[K-61]

The most that can be boasted of is that one masters the "game." In real life, any U-boat that would try going toe to toe with an escort would be turned into scrap metal in short order. When we play SH3 we have the choice of two styles of play: arcade or simulation of real U-boat tactics. Due to flaws in the game engine it may be possible to accomplish what wasn't done in real life, but we should never deceive ourselves that what we might pull off makes us better than real life Kaleuns. For example, it is very easy in this game to raid harbours, but in real life Prien considered his escape from Scapa Flow extremely fortunate. After his raid, harbour defences were tightened up everywhere and though I may be wrong, I cannot recall if any other U-boats repeated his coup.

A U-boat was a poor gunnery platform. In all but the calmest seas it pitched and heaved, throwing off accuracy. Gunners were naked to enemy fire; which of them would dare venture onto a bare deck and get into a duel with an escort's multiple guns with high rates of fire raking their boat? That's the sort of thing that would earn a Knight's Cross, posthumously.

[JokerOfFate]

:timeout: Timeout here...I don't want to offend anyone here but... What exactly are you saying? That I think I'm better than the real guys?
I never said anything like that. (Sorry if I've got the wrong message:))

[K-61]

No, that's not what you're saying. Sorry for my poor choice of wording. A great many of us are having a hard time believing your words, particularly in light of our own experiences when surfaced in the presence of warships. Maybe you did do all of that, but we have no proof of it. Even if you did pull it off, what does that say about the flaws of the game, which would allow a U-boat to gun down a battleship? On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that a BB could train its main guns on such a small target as a U-boat so effectively as they do in the game. Still, it's not a deal breaker for me, as a BB had many other guns aboard which would still do the job. I was killed in a matter of seconds by a BB that loomed out of the fog, before I could execute a crash dive.

My personal style of play is not to exploit game flaws to my advantage, such as the super accurate sound detection gear, so precise that players use it to fire blindly at unseen targets and hit them. U-boat sound apparatus was not that precise until the last generation in the last few days of the war. I don't duke it out with planes or escorts and dive away. I might be able to pull it off in the game, but U-boats did not engage cruisers and battleships in gunnery duels. Another game flaw is that we can decide just before launching which type of pistol we wish to use, but in real life they were fitted before the torpedo went into the tube. I make a note of which eels have which type of pistols and stick to them. I also do not reload external torpedoes in rough weather or interrupt their reloading by diving. If I were ever in the position of making a U-boat game I would fix a whole pile of flaws.

[JokerOfFate]

No need to worry :DL. It takes a lot of practice and reserve to try surface combat in career. Try taking on the odd armed merchant and work your way up. I know what I say sound unbelievable but not many try it for long. In the army my job was to make sure every one got out alive, of course you can't save everyone all the time, there was a point to me saying that but I can't remeber...oh yeah don't let my "reckless" behavior in the game tell you who I am in real life.:salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

A surfaced U-boat against a destroyer (any year of the war) has the same chance of survival as one of these:
http://hr-rna.com/RNA/images/Spiders/Garage%20Wolf%20rez.jpg

against one of these:
http://www.uwlax.edu/soe/news/images/NewspaperRoll.jpg

So next time, run away!

I don't know Weiss, that's a pretty big spider. *Shivers*

[evan82]

I was going to attack a convoy all I had to do was wait I knew where it was heading and I was sitting in my chokepoint waiting my battery was low so I surfaced and there it is a Trible Destroyer.

What weather was? If wind speed is 0 - 5 m/s Uboat is easy detectable for
escorts. Also You should always check what is going on on the surface through periscope before You surface the boat.
Don't try to attack a convoy with low batteries:shucks:

I had no warning from my Hydrophone
This is posible in SH3:down:

...and he was 3000m away going 36knots heading right for me.
Maybe he detect You through hydrophone, or just patroled the flank of the convoy.

He was going so fast that I wouldn't even had time to dive,
Because You surfaced the boat in wrong time.:yep:

He was also still going 36knots even after I hit his propeller 50 times (No joke) to try to slow him down a bit.
Did You destroyed his propellers [both] permanently?

Next time You should prever this all, and other possible situations, and draw conclusions from this all.:arrgh!:

[Tessa]

No, that's not what you're saying. Sorry for my poor choice of wording. A great many of us are having a hard time believing your words, particularly in light of our own experiences when surfaced in the presence of warships. Maybe you did do all of that, but we have no proof of it. Even if you did pull it off, what does that say about the flaws of the game, which would allow a U-boat to gun down a battleship? On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that a BB could train its main guns on such a small target as a U-boat so effectively as they do in the game. Still, it's not a deal breaker for me, as a BB had many other guns aboard which would still do the job. I was killed in a matter of seconds by a BB that loomed out of the fog, before I could execute a crash dive.

My personal style of play is not to exploit game flaws to my advantage, such as the super accurate sound detection gear, so precise that players use it to fire blindly at unseen targets and hit them. U-boat sound apparatus was not that precise until the last generation in the last few days of the war. I don't duke it out with planes or escorts and dive away. I might be able to pull it off in the game, but U-boats did not engage cruisers and battleships in gunnery duels. Another game flaw is that we can decide just before launching which type of pistol we wish to use, but in real life they were fitted before the torpedo went into the tube. I make a note of which eels have which type of pistols and stick to them. I also do not reload external torpedoes in rough weather or interrupt their reloading by diving. If I were ever in the position of making a U-boat game I would fix a whole pile of flaws.

Until nearly every ship get some kind of cannon on it I try to use every shell out of the deck gun when possible, think of them as hand me outs from the game. Unless there's a searchlight or a small gun turret aiming for anything above the hull is generally a waste of time/ammo/opportunity. Far as merchants are concerned, the key waterline hits (ones that flash white when they hit) can sink big ships quickly. Calm seas and no one else around can sink a large merchant/tanker in 10-15 shots and then they drop like a 8 o'clock class.

So far I've never manage to hit the props with a deck gun (regardless of how far below waterline it was) and take em out in 1 shot, several to the aft/boilers can reduce its speed to 0 though only time I've jammed the props was a rare shot into the props with an eel exactly how the Bismark got hit.

Once I managed to almost literally run into the Hood (it was sitting parked, figured was either waiting for the rest of the task force to show up or it had reached its end and didn't disapear) during a Gale with visibility of ~ 100m. Wasn't until I almost rammed it and saw it at 300m where an enormous wall just showed up, fortunately visibility goes both ways. Was able to slam on emergency back to submerge (was going to fast to even think to dive and slide under her) taking only moderate damage. All the big guns missed, its the (relative to a 18 inch gun) smaller guns that fire like machine guns that pepper you full of holes and do the worst damage. Those stupid small guns send more people to the medic (or burial at sea) than their depth charges do :dead: