TO ALL MODERATORS SH3 and SH5

[Cukier]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

:cry:

[THE_MASK]

I remember , thank you .

[Subnuts]

After we remove the Battle Flag of the Confederacy from every Civil War game, the Rising Sun emblem from every Pacific Theater game, the Sickle and Hammer from every Cold War game, the Union Jack from every game that takes place during the height of the British Empire, the... well, you get the picture.

[raymond6751]

It is good to be reminded of what the Nazi symbols mean.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

When I first played SH I was a bit uneasy playing as part of the Nazi regime. But it was a game and I felt confident enough to know what that meant. I am as anti-nazi as you can get but I'm also a historial buff. That symbol reminds me of the dangers and crimes associated with it.

[KarlKoch]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

:cry:

Not discussing and remembering what happend during those days will make us forget. And that is the real danger, not showing symbols. Symbols usually don't kill or torture people.

If you hide everything and put it under a cloak of shadows, all you get will be misinformation and a subculture praising what they assume has happened then. So your only chance is not to hide anything, but show it and inform about it.

So, don't blame the symbols, blame the people who did this and the ones who allowed this to happen.
I am not feeling as a nazi when i see a swastika, nor do i feel any moment in myself to go out and kill someone. Can't see why a symbol should rise such feelings.

Greetings from germany,
KarlKoch

[Dowly]

About time we had one of these threads again. :DL

[mookiemookie]

Not discussing and remembering what happend during those days will make us forget. And that is the real danger, not showing symbols. Symbols usually don't kill or torture people.

If you hide everything and put it under a cloak of shadows, all you get will be misinformation and a subculture praising what they assume has happened then. So your only chance is not to hide anything, but show it and inform about it.

So, don't blame the symbols, blame the people who did this and the ones who allowed this to happen.
I am not feeling as a nazi when i see a swastika, nor do i feel any moment in myself to go out and kill someone. Can't see why a symbol should rise such feelings.

Greetings from germany,
KarlKoch

:agree:

[Kromus]

Actually, it`s an eastern religious symbol of prosperity, luck and happiness(buddhism, hinduism etc, you can see it on Buddha statues) which nazi only used for their propaganda/regime...

[mauriga]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

:cry:

So we should ask to a director making a WWII movie to avoid to use the original german flags?

Pls, avoid us your rhetoric speech.
I really hate nazism and fascism (I'm italian).
I only want play a realistic WWII game.

mauriga

[reaper7]

Actually, it`s an eastern religious symbol of prosperity, luck and happiness(buddhism, hinduism etc, you can see it on Buddha statues) which nazi only used for their propaganda/regime...


Exactly, that symbol goes a lot further back in history before there was even a Germany. Maybe we should remove bullets from games too, how many people do they kill.

[Jimbuna]

There should be no problem or issue provided people adhere to the understanding/perception that they are playing a computer based game with a WWII U-boat theme.

[SeaWolf U-57]

There should be no problem or issue provided people adhere to the understanding/perception that they are playing a computer based game with a WWII U-boat theme.


And thats what it all boils down too Well said sir :salute:

[tater]

Play SH4 with Fleet boats, or the RN campaign, then sink axis ships (with correct flags, ideally), then MG the survivors in the water.
:yeah:

[Dowly]

My clock just turned to popcorn time.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/popcorn-cat.gif

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

:cry:

It's almost always better to refrain from telling others what or how they should do or not do.

I understand you play SH5. Now you ask others to remove svastikas from this game, because they symbolize death camps. I understand you may take death camps personally, as you're Polish, possibly some of your family members died there. But then... how come you don't have a problem with playing a game where you become a soldier of a nazi regime, commander of a nazi boat in a nazi navy?

And if you don't have a problem about being a soldier of a nazi regime... how come you have a problem with a svastika?

So my conclusion is as follows: Do as you like. If you don't want svastikas, don't install mods that add them. If you don't want to feel like a nazi, don't take part in a nazi war. If you don't care, don't care. But don't tell me what's better for me, using emotional blackmail for this.

PS. Asking for no svastikas when playing an U-Boot commander is like asking for your plate of meats not to be called "meats" but "alternative vegetables" instead - because slaughter houses are so cruel places.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Actually, it`s an eastern religious symbol of prosperity, luck and happiness(buddhism, hinduism etc, you can see it on Buddha statues) which nazi only used for their propaganda/regime... Correct. Folks here (Hindus) have those in their religous ceremonies. It's from the Iron Age and it is used for propserity and well-being as previously mentioned.

[tater]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...

:cry:

BTW, why is it that it's OK to role-play furthering the German war effort (and everything that means), but not OK to role-play helping Germany do what Germany did in WW2 with the proper flags?

Are you suggesting it is somehow less offensive to imagine yourself prolonging the war (and hence German body-count) as long as there is no flag around? The u-boat itself is a symbol of the war to anyone with half a clue.

If a flag offends you, my suggestion would be not to role play the Navy that fought to prolong that agenda.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

By the way, I found quite a lot of different POLISH svastikas on Wikipedia:

Boreyko coat of arms (XIV-XV centuries)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/POL_COA_Boreyko.svg/200px-POL_COA_Boreyko.svg.png

XII century church in Kruszwica detail:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Kruszwica_kolegiata_swastyka.jpg/800px-Kruszwica_kolegiata_swastyka.jpg

Military unit (2 Pluton Strzecow Podhalanskich) celebrations, 1936, Sanok, Poland
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/2PSP.jpg/800px-2PSP.jpg

The badge of the above mentioned unit:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/2PSP_odznaka.jpg/670px-2PSP_odznaka.jpg

Badge of another Polish unit (4 Pu³k Piechoty Legionów, 1915-1939)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/4_Pulk_Piechoty_Legionow-badge.jpg

Polish "Airborne and Antigas Defence League" badge (1928-1939)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Liga_Obrony_Powietrznej_i_Przeciwgazowej-badge.jpg

Polish "1st Motorized Artillery Regiment" badge
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/1._Pu³k_Artylerii_Motorowej_(1st_Motorized_Artille ry_Regiment).jpg

And MANY others. Just for the record - none of the above was a sign of sympathizing with nazizm. These symbols were in use long before Hitler started his political career.


EDIT: I pasted these Polish svastikas as the author of this thread is Polish. I suppose these pictures will be a kind of shock to him. :)

[Webster]

making the game historically correct, including the visual symbols, does not mean you agree with what those symbols stand for.

it just means they are being represented accurately

[Sailor Steve]

making the game historically correct, including the visual symbols, does not mean you agree with what those symbols stand for.

it just means they are being represented accurately
:yep:

And there are plenty of mods that add them or remove them, so it's not like you have to look at them if you don't want to.




Unless of course the OP was referring not to their presence in the game, but (since he addresses the Moderators) to their presence on these forums, which could be a bit trickier question.

[tater]

By way of disclosure, while I have no problem with accurate representations in any game, I've never played SH3 or SH5 (won't buy the latter due to DRM), and while I have full SH4, I've never even looked at the u-boats in the add on. Not once, have no plans to, ever. I'd play a DD game to SINK u-boats, mind you. Even sank a couple in SH4 as a USN sub.

So if being immersed in a game fighting for the nazis bugs you, play something else would be my suggestion.

BTW, when it comes to "accuracy" I think it's important to realize that aside from PORT, you should not see flags at all. Did u-boats surface, and put out a nazi flag? No. Did ships run with flags on the jackstaff? Not at sea, except maybe special cases for photos. In SH4 I was thinking of an accurate flag mod---it would remove all the %@!$%! flags.

So I have to sort of wonder about "accurate" flags that fly on u-boats on patrol, since if those who use them really wanted accuracy, they'd really have no flag at all.

[Sailor Steve]

BTW, when it comes to "accuracy" I think it's important to realize that aside from PORT, you should not see flags at all. Did u-boats surface, and put out a nazi flag? No. Did ships run with flags on the jackstaff? Not at sea, except maybe special cases for photos. In SH4 I was thinking of an accurate flag mod---it would remove all the %@!$%! flags.
Of course that is true for submarines, which is why I use Anvart's Up/Down mods for SH3. I only fly the flag in port (except for when I'm playing the month before the war, then it's up all the time).

But surface warships have nothing to hide, and characteristically fly the flag from the stern flagstaff during the daytime while in port, and from the mast when at sea all around the clock, and especially when in combat. They want to know who is who.

I don't know if merchants did the same during the war, but I do know that attacking submarines were usually aware of the nationality of the ships they were attacking, so it wouldn't surprise me.

So I have to sort of wonder about "accurate" flags that fly on u-boats on patrol, since if those who use them really wanted accuracy, they'd really have no flag at all.
Very true, which is why I'm bugged that there is no Up/Down mod for SH4 or SH5.

[tater]

I have MANY pictures of japanese warships and merchants in combat. Countless, in fact.

Some have US ships as well.

Battle of Santa Cruz. Hornet has a flag on the mast. It's maybe slightly bigger than a flag you might have at home. Unless that is a singnal flag, it's so small I cannot be sure it's the stars and stripes. It's a tiny fraction of the size of the bedspring radar.

I just flipped through several dozen images, and found only a couple with what might be flags flying (ships underway, being attacked by planes). The flags are considerably smaller than my (unreleased) small flags mod. They might also be signal flags.

Dunno about US convoys.

[Jimbuna]

There should be no problem or issue provided people adhere to the understanding/perception that they are playing a computer based game with a WWII U-boat theme.

And thats what it all boils down too Well said sir :salute:

Simplest form is sometimes the best.....does away with the need to go into the far end of a proverbial fart :DL

[Webster]

:yep:

(since he addresses the Moderators)

i think he wanted to direct this thread to the modders not the modderators :hmmm:

[Nufsed]

It's almost always better to refrain from telling others what or how they should do or not do.

I understand you play SH5. Now you ask others to remove svastikas from this game, because they symbolize death camps. I understand you may take death camps personally, as you're Polish, possibly some of your family members died there. But then... how come you don't have a problem with playing a game where you become a soldier of a nazi regime, commander of a nazi boat in a nazi navy?

And if you don't have a problem about being a soldier of a nazi regime... how come you have a problem with a svastika?

So my conclusion is as follows: Do as you like. If you don't want svastikas, don't install mods that add them. If you don't want to feel like a nazi, don't take part in a nazi war. If you don't care, don't care. But don't tell me what's better for me, using emotional blackmail for this.

PS. Asking for no svastikas when playing an U-Boot commander is like asking for your plate of meats not to be called "meats" but "alternative vegetables" instead - because slaughter houses are so cruel places.

Could not have put it better.

[sidslotm]

Please, no put sfasticas in the games. Its nazi symbol.

Remember: Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka...


On a personal note that has always troubled me, "there but for grace go I"
the power of this symbol goes way beyond any ones ability to reason this out.
The fact that the human being can level out at the depth the nazi mind discovered
is beyond be. No one should ever take this symbol lightly, lest it happen again.

I often think if I had been alive and in my 20s in nazi Germany at that time,
could I have stood up in the gale. It says in SH5 the diference between a good officer
and a great officer is about ten seconds, the time it takes to make the right decision I recon

So let none of us make light or be-little this persons view point, there are still people
in this world who would resurect this symbol and it's ideals. They would rob me of the
vital 10 seconds of grace I might need to make the correct decision again.

sid

[Rockin Robbins]

In the face of such symbols I think we must consider the fact that the owners of the swastika were completely and unconditionally defeated. The symbol no longer means anything and to be afraid of a defeated symbol is to give back the power we took from it.

That power was taken away by the lives of millions who although they were afraid of its then potent symbolism, still put their lives on the line to fight it. Those people did not shrink from the swastika, they defeated it. Let's not put the power back into a defeated symbol. And lets not forget that at any time we too may be called upon to pay a similar price to fight other symbols of evil in the future. Or, like the citizens of Poland, we may be crushed under the boot of the next such symbol. Little known fact: did you know that Poles most probably won World War II, although they were defeated, they made victory possible. I'll let someone else tell the story.

The swastika is a trophy, not a rallying point unless we make it so.

[Barso]

Well said RR.
That's exactly the attitude that should be taken.
To honour the fallen we must never forget what reasons they fought for.

[reaper7]

Very well said Rockin Robbins. :up:

[Nisgeis]

It's not just a swastika. It's the BLACK swastika, in a WHITE circle, on a RED background. That particular combination - that's the Nazis. They took a symbol and they added 'corporate colours'. There should be no mistake in anyone's mind that the above combo means Nazi only... not peace and love or anything else.

You can have the 'old symbol' discussion all you want, but no one will be fooled that you mean peace and love if you choose the same 'corporate colours' as Nazi-corp as your sig.

I know there were other combos - but that's the stand out combo that's all eye-cathing.

[Jimbuna]

Little known fact: did you know that Poles most probably won World War II, although they were defeated, they made victory possible. I'll let someone else tell the story.



You have me intrigued by the above statement?

Many years ago I knew a local dentist, he was Polish officer who twice led a company of his countrymen on the assault to take Cassino (the first successful attempt was undermined by those who took control of the ruins).

During our conversations he would often refer to the work done by his countrymen in being the first to crack Enigma but he was always careful to stress that is was only the early 3 rotor version and not the latter, much more sophisticated 4 roter version.

Could this be what you are alluding to? :hmmm:

[skwasjer]

No need to have this thread blow up into another 10 pages is there?

[Madox58]

And you would be tortured and killed if you had a Crucifix at one point in time.
It's a GAME people!
If things like this bother you?
You really should not be playing it!
No person in his/her right mind grabs that image from a Game
and starts a crusade to stamp it out of said GAME when they are infact
playing on the Nazi side in that Game!!

That's as insane as playing the Commander of a Death Camp and
being upset that there is Nazi stuff in it!

Grow up just a little bit.

[Nisgeis]

And you would be tortured and killed if you had a Crucifix at one point in time.

That's true for Jesus, but who else?

[Madox58]

That's true for Jesus, but who else?

I'm not catching your drift.
:hmmm:

[Nisgeis]

I'm not catching your drift.
:hmmm:

Who was tortured and killed for having a crucifix?

[Madox58]

The Christians back in that time period.
After Jesus was gone.
Didn't the Romans use them in extreme ways?

[Highbury]

Who was tortured and killed for having a crucifix?

Ummm are you serious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empir e

Just one example, google more. You have alot of reading to do...

[Nisgeis]

Ummm are you serious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empir e

Just one example, google more. You have alot of reading to do...

Oh yes, stupid me, what with wikipedia being the crutch of the moron. I bow to your experience in this area.

Nowhere in the link you posted does the word 'crucifix' appear, so I don't see how it is relevant. Perhaps you are confusing 'the Romans blaming the Christians for something', with 'having a crucifix' being grounds for torture and death. You see how the details get in the way of your point.

The simple act of wearing a crucifix does not mean that one will be tortured and killed. If privateer meant 'many Christians were persecuted for believing that Jesus was the son of God' or something similar, then that's a different kettle of fish.

This thread after all, is about symbology and the supporters or detractors from it. Not about who was killed for wearing what symbol. Although I am beginning to see why some people just don't get it. Having a Nazi symbol round your neck is never good and you will not be seen as advocating peace and love. Do you disagree that the Nazis were not about peace and love Highbury? (that being the point of the thread and all)

[Madox58]

Regardless of if it's a cross, the swastika, or what have you.
If you give power to any image, in any way?
You have given up a basic chance of free thought.
The Nazi's took an ages old image and corrupted it for a time.
Does that imply the image has been corrupt from the very start?

That would imply that any useage of said image places those that used it
in question.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Who was tortured and killed for having a crucifix?
Not Jesus himself for sure. :D

The Christians back in that time period.
After Jesus was gone.
Didn't the Romans use them in extreme ways?

Fish were used much more often by these Christians than cross. Also the habit of wearing a small cross on one's neck was then still completely unknown - contrary to what some movies about Christians in Roman times show.

[Nisgeis]

The Nazi's took an ages old image and corrupted it for a time.
Does that imply the image has been corrupt from the very start?

See what I said about 'corporate colours'. Where in history does it appear in Nazi-corp colours before the Nazis? I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the Swastika in Black, with a white cirlce and a red background was not specifically a Nazi symbol. Whereas the swatkia itself can be any colour at all on any background. But you wouldn't get a Neo-Nazi group spray painting it blue with a yellow background now would you?

EDIT: Bottom line: If you love the black swastika, with the white cirlcle, with the red background... you just might be a Nazi supporter. But if in doubt, use a different colur scheme - if you can bear the loss of impact it will have. This is the key differentiation. The symbol without the colour scheme (as it loses the symbology) - if it doesn't lose the symbology.

[Madox58]

Well, being that things like 'crutch of the moron' is being thrown out?
:nope:
I'll take skwasjer's advice and bow out of here.
:salute:

[Nisgeis]

Well, being that things like 'crutch of the moron' is being thrown out?
:nope:
I'll take skwasjer's advice and bow out of here.
:salute:

Anything would be better than defending the Nazi symbols. Wise choice (if a little late).

[Highbury]

Oh yes, stupid me, what with wikipedia being the crutch of the moron. I bow to your experience in this area.

Thanks for calling me a moron, I like personal attacks.

Wiki is as reliable as it's citations. It is not a source, but a gathering of sources. People who don't understand that are the true morons.

And like privateer I am done.

[Madox58]

I'd have one last thing to add.
But it would get me keel hauled again.
:har:
Enjoy your perceived victory.
:88)

[Nisgeis]

Thanks for calling me a moron, I like personal attacks.

Wiki is as reliable as it's citations. It is not a source, but a gathering of sources. People who don't understand that are the true morons.

Wiki has long been known as the font of all propoganda by those who editted it last :DL. Those who believe everything that it says are, well, liable to be brainwashed I guess. I did clearly say that the word 'crucifix' doesn't appear in that article and asked how was it relevant, but you just didn't address that point. I would be pleased if someone with as large an intellect as you would do me the favour of responding to one of my silly questions. I would forever be in your debt. How does that article relate to what I asked?

Who was it that was tortured and killed for wearing a crucifix? I seriously don't know the answer to that and if ever there was agroup that was, I'm interested to know who.

[Nisgeis]

Enjoy your perceived victory.

I don't know what you are talking about. I simply asked who it was that was tortured and killed for wearing a crucifix. I haven't got an answer yet. I would be interested to know. I know so far that it wasn't Jesus. That leaves... everyone else as a potential candidate.

Nazis are bad?

[Dowly]

I'd have one last thing to add.
But it would get me keel hauled again.
:har:


Richard? :O:

[Madox58]

Dowly,

You trying to get me whacked again?
:har:

[Dowly]

Dowly,

You trying to get me whacked again?
:har:

Har har har :arrgh!:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Well, being that things like 'crutch of the moron' is being thrown out?
:nope:
I'll take skwasjer's advice and bow out of here.
:salute:

Although Nisgeis is right about the "corporate colors", his style of discussion is not what I could in accept or support. :nope:

I'll toss in some more chaos: I am a "supporter" of nazi corporate colors, though I've never been a nazi supporter. As much as I despise the regime, its feats and nazi ideology, I must honestly admit their "corporate identity" is a work of a genius - the use of svastika, the shapes and colours accompanying it. These (as well as other nazi-era symbols, like the wide eagle, uniforms and badges of newly created formations and so on) perfectly fit into the simplistic and minimalistic aesthetics of German Cross (Iron Cross shape) and make a classical example of beautiful, consistent corporate identity few other countries/corporations achieved. There are of course many exception, like for example Kriegsmarine standard, which is simply ugly and overloaded with details.

The only other example of so beautiful pieces of logo art in abundance I know of is Japan in shogunate era - the clans/families crests (coats of arms) were as simple as it is possible... I love them. You can see a few examples here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_(crest)

I often visit "vintage market" in my city, where there are always a few stalls of old men selling all kinds of decorations, badges, awards, medals and so on. Every one of them has a few Iron Crosses and sometimes a Knight Cross oIC, many Polish and Soviet decorations and also some random other stuff. One glance at the colelction and I know - I would prefer to get an Iron Cross 2nd Class for its look than ANY other Polish/Soviet medal I saw there. They are simply UGLY when compared...

According to what Nisgeis said above I should be a Nazi. But I'm luckily not. :timeout:

[Madox58]

You was there the last time!
You weasel!
:haha:
Not gonna happen now!

[Nisgeis]

I'll toss in some more chaos: I am a "supporter" of nazi corporate colors, though I've never been a nazi supporter. As much as I despise the regime, its feats and nazi ideology, I must honestly admit their "corporate identity" is a work of a genius - the use of svastika, the shapes and colours accompanying it. These (as well as other nazi-era symbols, like the wide eagle, uniforms and badges of newly created formations and so on) perfectly fit into the simplistic and minimalistic aesthetics of German Cross (Iron Cross shape) and make a classical example of beautiful, consistent corporate identity few other countries/corporations achieved. There are of course many exception, like for example Kriegsmarine standard, which is simply ugly and overloaded with details.

Yes and that's what the Nazi symbology was all about - propoganda. The rest of the discussion about 'the swastika was a symbol of peace' means nothing at all when you are discussing the Nazis. The Nazi use of the symbol is completely different to the prior historic use of the symbol and to say that just because it was a symbol for peace and happiness at one time does not mean that in any way the Nazi symbology is mitigated or reduced by that. You know what that symbol means.

That's all.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

According to what Nisgeis said above I should be a Nazi. But I'm luckily not.

When you're running don't zig-zag you might mess up my aim.:D:har:

[Sailor Steve]

IThe flags are considerably smaller than my (unreleased) small flags mod. They might also be signal flags.
Good point. Here is my own picture of the standard US ensign on my destroyer. Not big at all.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/bbass-1-1.jpg

The following is from Section 5 of NTP13B, published in 1986, but in agreement with the practice as I knew it in 1970, and almost certainly during the Second World War. I've looked for primary wartime sources, but they seem to be scarce online.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/FlagSize.jpg

So a battleship 'daily' flag at sea would be 5' tall and 9' 6" long, and a destroyer flag would be 3' 6" tall and 6' 7-3/4" long. I doubt that there would be much variation between different navies.


b. When cruising under wartime conditions, it is customary to fly the national ensign continuously at sea, since battle action may be regarded as always
imminent.

The full document can be found here:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/ntp13b.pdf

[tater]

Wartime images of merchants rarely show flags. Least japanese merchies. If they do, they are tiny enough to be very hard to spot.

Ditto warships. I found an image of Ise under attack, and she was flying a very small flag off the pagoda. Against the scale of her it looked about like someone drying a shirt. :)

[Sailor Steve]

Well, seven feet by five feet would probably look like that against a battleship mast. :sunny:

From what I could find it was standard practice for merchants to fly a flag, but probably quite small compared to what we're used to. Submariners seem to have had little problem identifying ships at sea, so it's a good question where to draw the line.

[Randomizer]

... Submariners seem to have had little problem identifying ships at sea, so it's a good question where to draw the line.
Drifting further off a contentious topic...

Sorry SS I think this is absolutely incorrect, submariners had a terrible record of correctly identifying ships, whether as targets for attacks or acting as intelligence gathering scouts.

Look at the massive over claims and mis-identification by virtually all skippers in all navies. It's doubtful that most were pathlogical liars so the only explanation for getting their observations wrong so often was wishful thinking combined with a consistant inability to get the identification correct.

HMS Ark Royal was "positively" identified and reported torpedoed several times before U-81 finally got her;

Prien believed he shot at a Renown in Scapa that was actually the tender HMS Pegasus. He missed;

Japanese captains constantly identified US warships as battleships and to U-Boat captains, every convoy escort was a "destroyer".

Post war records reveal that it was unusual when submarine commanders actually got an identification correct (Werner Hencke in U-515 is a notable and rare exception). In the Pacific, JANAC (Joint Army/Navy Assessment Committee) demonstrated how ineffecive American ship identification was when they assessed the results of the US unrestricted submarine campaign. Indeed, for some time US intelligence carried an extra Japanese aircraft carrier on the books as told in Blair's book Silent Victory that was the direct result of incorrect identification.

None of this is meant to be critical, rather given the special circumstances of WW2 submarine combat we should be surprised that they got it right on those occasions when they did.