Light the blue touch paper and stand well back... [Archive]

Castout

09-03-10, 11:18 PM

The hypothesis that god created the universe can be true depending on the definition of god.

Considering how little we know about the universe, I would say that no one on Earth can have a clue as to what/who created the universe.

And we haven't known even half of the universe not even a quarter of it and here a man telling us that nobody and nothing created everything. And because the universe so far has been ever expanding I don't think man will ever able to explore whole of it of it at any time. Unless we could devise a way to travel faster than the rate of the expanding universe. I wonder what would space be like at the fringes of 3D dimensional existence....

So nothing created the order which we are privileged to live in out of total nothingness that transformed nothingness into chaos and into order.

Sure I'm religious and I believe God created everything just that I do not know how He exactly created everything and I don't pretend to know. And sure I can't prove God created everything but I do know that what I'm seeing in this life is a grand design of things that puts an equilibrium and order enough to sustain living beings in it which become the flavor that gives meaning to time and becoming the heart and soul of this otherwise empty three dimensional dark space. Now this equilibrium that enables vulnerable living things to sustain themselves must not be a coincidence. What we are seeing is order and not chaos and because chaos can never become order we know chaos didn't create this universe and because nothing creates only nothing and because of everything is from everything else we know for certain that everything must have a beginning. And because it has a beginning it must have an end and when something has a beginning and an end it must have a purpose and when something has a purpose it must have originated from an intelligent design or plan.

TLAM Strike

09-03-10, 11:35 PM

And we haven't known even half of the universe not even a quarter of it and here a man telling us that nobody and nothing created everything. And because the universe so far has been ever expanding I don't think man will ever able to explore whole of it of it at any time. Unless we could devise a way to travel faster than the rate of the expanding universe. I wonder what would space be like at the fringes of 3D dimensional existence....

Not sure if its possible to reach the fringe of the universe. Our known universe is based on our ever expanding light horizon- the maximum distance light can travel to us since the start of the universe. If we sent a ship to the edge of that horizon we would find another light horizon of equal size and so on. I think its possible this continues on forever.

Another question to ponder is if you each the edge of matter in the universe (the "farthest star" if you will) does space just stop? Or does hard vacuum continue on forever?

Sledgehammer427

09-04-10, 12:45 AM

There are christians that like to say the big bang is entirely possible
it goes something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyL1m0I3IN4

frankly, I applaud that Stephen Hawking is pushing aside the possibility he could go to hell for saying what he's saying. takes guts.

TarJak

09-04-10, 03:05 AM

I'll bet if this thread title was something like, "Acclaimed physicist Stephen Hawking's says God did not create the universe", it would be two, to three pages full of rabid bit chomping already.
Possibly but a name like that would have been dull and too easy. As this famous legend from many a firework is actually quoted by Hawkings himself and in the article I thought it apt. Looks like all the cantakerous ones are on holiday for the weekend.

There are christians that like to say the big bang is entirely possible
it goes something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyL1m0I3IN4

frankly, I applaud that Stephen Hawking is pushing aside the possibility he could go to hell for saying what he's saying. takes guts.
That's no worse than the Norse creation myth. (http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beginning.html)

Oberon

09-04-10, 07:20 AM

The Egyptian cult in Heliopolis has one of the best creation myths I think :haha:

But still, what is todays scientific fact may be tomorrows scientific fiction, the big thinkers don't always get it right, some of Einsteins theories are being questioned today IIRC. However, whether it was the work of a God, an alien being or scientific process no one will know for certain, it will be one of those unanswerable questions short of some divine intervention or human mental transcendence.
Personally, I think this universe was created by the collapse of the one before us, and so on and so forth back until the first universe...but the billion dollar question is, what started THAT universe. :hmmm:
We'll never know. :haha:

DarkFish

09-04-10, 08:37 AM

That's no worse than the Norse creation myth. (http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beginning.html)Then the Christian creation myth. First there's just god, he blinks his eye and POOF there's the universe:doh:

At least Germanic Paganism does not have some bible "explaining" how exactly everything is created. Germanic Paganism at least acknowledges we do not know everything.

frankly, I applaud that Stephen Hawking is pushing aside the possibility he could go to hell for saying what he's saying. takes guts.Pah. If you don't believe in god/hell there's no need to be afraid of it. Personally I hate god/christ so there's no way I'm possibly going to end up in "heaven".

Ah well as the Frisian king Radbod once said, I rather spend eternity in hell with my friends than in heaven with my enemies.

09-04-10, 08:57 AM

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

Takeda Shingen

09-04-10, 09:00 AM

Then the Christian creation myth. First there's just god, he blinks his eye and POOF there's the universe:doh:

At least Germanic Paganism does not have some bible "explaining" how exactly everything is created. Germanic Paganism at least acknowledges we do not know everything.

Actually, the Genesis account of creation implies that there is much about the workings of the universe that is beyond the comprehension of man. The heavily symbolic and metaphoric language is as a presentation of creation to pre-technologic man; hence the use of 'days' and 'nights' in reference. It also introduces the concept of Sabbath; a day to which reflect and give thanks to The Creator for, well, Creation. All in all, it's a very logical foundation for a voluminous religious text.

yubba

09-04-10, 07:44 PM

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.
you' ll have to take that up with him when you get there.

Castout

09-04-10, 08:29 PM

Not sure if its possible to reach the fringe of the universe. Our known universe is based on our ever expanding light horizon- the maximum distance light can travel to us since the start of the universe. If we sent a ship to the edge of that horizon we would find another light horizon of equal size and so on. I think its possible this continues on forever.

Another question to ponder is if you each the edge of matter in the universe (the "farthest star" if you will) does space just stop? Or does hard vacuum continue on forever?

yea made you really wonder what is it like on the fringes of 3 dimensional universe that just didn't exist 1 second before :D

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.

We are the spectators of this which was put in motion and which is still in motion, a grand existence in which we partake in this tiny period of time to marvel on it and to become part of it for a little time and to fill it with our consciousness which otherwise would be largely just empty dark void, mindless and soulless and dead. Thus we are in essence the witnesses of this whole creation and both at the same time, the resulting consciousness of this whole creation.

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable. And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!

Sailor Steve

09-04-10, 09:45 PM

In my opinion the whole existence or creation as we know it was definitely put in motion and is still in motion which we casually termed as time that is the ability to track changes surrounding and remembering those changes around us,

otherwise this whole grand motion of existence would be unknown, not enjoyable and not witness-able.
Opinions are nice, and not always to be argued with. Yours is fine, and of course you are free to share it. I personally no longer have an opinion. This is unknown, and I don't see it likely to become known anytime soon.

But...

And i just couldn't believe that we are who we are because of some odd accident or a freak coincidence because everything fits beautifully and in a harmonious order, reliable, stable and life sustainable.
But what we can believe or can't believe is still just opinion. I have no idea whether it could be a freak coincidence or not. Just because there is order is not an explanation of how that order came to be. It's possible we see a creator behind the order because there is one, or it's possible we see that because we want an explanation, even if there isn't one.

And because chaos could not create order out of it ever and because nothing only creates nothing and because motion must be started by something and because that something must have implied a beginning and because that beginning is a proof of design judging the results of it and because design implies intelligence I must refuse to accept that this whole marvelous things I'm looking at including my beautiful wife and children as a result of a god damn freak accident.
How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

Just like when you look at a Ferrari, beautiful and functioning and able or with a purpose and enjoyable you must say what a piece of engineering amd you would be nuts if you said it was what it was by itself. Bear this in mind when you're out close with the nature and looking at that mountain or mountain range or the tranquility of that lake or the majesty of the open sea or when just simply staring into the eyes of your loved one. What a piece of engineering!
I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

TLAM Strike

09-04-10, 09:55 PM

We have found that the ingredients for life are quite common in the universe and may have in fact arrived on this planet from outside sources.

The conditions for life to start may as well be common, astronomers are now discovering terrestrial extrasolar planets with orbits similar to our own.

It may very well be that life is not only abundant but inevitable.

(All due respect to Neil deGrass Tyson, who I just very broadly paraphrased.)

Castout

09-04-10, 11:25 PM

How do you know chaos could not create order? How do you know that nothing only creates nothing? None of us were there to see it. With no real evidence, there is no way to know for certain.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know either. I'm just saying that whether we can believe something or not doesn't make it so.

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers.

EXACTLY. A Ferrari is not even created they are produced but not created out of nothing because much less man unable to create anything out of nothing so nothing will certainly not create everything that we know from absolutely nothing.

Though I can swear that I do know God exists I do not know for sure whether God created everything but since I've found to today that nothing is even remotely close to God it would be a safe bet that He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know, authority that doesn't intimidate, coerce(God never scare anyone maybe some preachers do but never God), nor one which requires influence or consent but that that simply works because it's rightfully God's. But of course I can't say this to everyone and hope they understand much less able to accept it because though I understand what little I know and understand, I do not know everything about God or just a mere little something, just like most people who know God. The one who created everything out of nothing must be logically speaking waaay beyond our understanding even that which is our current best.:D

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.

btw I don't mean to argue or force an opinion which is like you said just a personal opinion :D
And it's more like a philosophical argument or conviction than proving anything.

But I do believe trees sprout out of the ground because its seeds were planted in it. Whether God made the seed where they were I have no way to know unless told and unless told I must assume it was just by nature.

AngusJS

09-04-10, 11:40 PM

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.Yeah. An estimated 10^24 stars and who knows how many planets in the universe, all governed by a petty tyrant which demands praise from, and exacts punishment on, the inhabitants of one planet in a backwater section of a typical galaxy. It just doesn't make any sense.

AngusJS

09-04-10, 11:49 PM

...He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know, authority that doesn't intimidate, coerce(God never scare anyone maybe some preachers do but never God)Umm... ever read the Old Testament?

And everything has to have a cause? What's god's cause, then? Let me guess - god is exempt... because it just is.

Castout

09-04-10, 11:54 PM

Its funny thing to be send to hell by allmighty bening who created universe.
He must have quite ego problem.

If you live in someone's house you are obliged to live by the host house rules.
If the host didn't give a clue of his house rules then you cannot be expected to follow them and if you were punished by not following them because you didn't know what was expected then the host would not be acting fair.

But I think God has made it clear to everyone of His house rules.
It's even embedded in our conscience and empathy. And we even try to imitate His house rules in our judiciary system, not any of its specifics nor withstanding any of its shortcomings, us being mortal men but what it was meant to give.

Well if you do not like your conscience and what your empathy telling you then go ahead live somewhere else but wait even Hell and the world of the dead belong to God. I guess the only way to be free of God is to start creating your own house including your very own made body, physical and spiritual and some 'breathing space' with your own rules that implies creating something out of nothing if not altogether creating a different everything out of nothing. But I think it would be far too much thing for a man or even a race of man or all the race of man to accomplish. So meanwhile we just need to check our ego as a mere mortal person. :O:

But all men who thought as you made the mistake of assuming too much about God without knowing anything of God personally and make it all worse by attributing man's fallible characteristics to a holy God or by expecting TOO MUCH of God this and that that he would blame God for everything that went wrong even if it was another man's fault since he had been falsely taught somehow that God is somehow responsible of literally everything and he swallowed this WHOLLY even without personal knowledge of God. It takes honesty to say I do not know instead of being emotional about something which one doesn't have knowledge about no matter how little. This applies to both, believers and unbelievers.

If the ground which will not obey any man no matter his stature, obeyed the Lord God or that sickness which all man's wits fail to defeat be healed by mere will of God then there must be a very very good reason and strong foundation why those things would obey an entity that many man mistakenly loath as an evil tyrannical person.

But I've also unfortunately accepted that even though God is universal He may not be for everyone not because God is not for everyone but because not everyone is for God through sadly their false beliefs of God and the worship of their own desires. Let's admit it, mankind are not rational being even in the 21st century. People make excuses when they want justifications of their lives or deeds, ideals or lack of it even when their deeds couldn't be justified whatsoever. Excuses feel good because it fools you into believing that you're good even by being evil. No evil person who walks this earth could possibly allow themselves to think and genuinely believe they are an evil person unless that man is on his way to his repentance.

antikristuseke

09-05-10, 12:26 AM

I am incline to agree with Steve here, we don't really know how the universe came to exist, maybe one day we will, but I doubt it, but I am sure we will form a more accurate view of what happened back then as our knowledge and understanding of the universe increase.
Now then, to claim that a god or gods caused this is nothing more than idle speculation with no basis in evidence, the only intelecually honest position, in my opinion, is to accept that we do not know. There is no need or purpouse to fill that void in our knowledge with a fictitious entity, actually, it could be argued that it can be detrimental to advancing our understanding. In just one example if you atribute a particular phenomenon to the supernatural causing it there is no need to investigate further as you have an answer though that phenomenon more than likely has a perfectly good naturalistic explanation behind it. Lightning was though to be caused by some god or another, now we have discovered that it is not.
As to the intelligent design argument for living beings (not that anyone has really used it here as far as I can tell, just geting this off my chest), it fails rather miserably, becuse if we were all engineeredd by an intelligent being, that was one bloody inept engineer. Take the human eye for instance, something requently used by the proponents of hte design argument as something that could not arrise on its own due to natural selection, there is a blind spot where the optical nerve attaches to the retina and because of how the retian is placed it can become detatched causing blindness, either temporary or permanent. I don't know about you but that is a pretty poor design. Oddly ennough cephalopod eyes do not suffer from those same problems and in some cases have the added advantage of being able to see the polarization of light.

I have probably gone off track a bit with my nonsensical rant. Oh well.

Castout

09-05-10, 12:34 AM

I have probably gone off track a bit with my nonsensical rant. Oh well.

:hmmm: Not as far as I did :haha:

yea I do not know though I believe and suspect God

antikristuseke

09-05-10, 12:35 AM

I don't know either, but I dont think there is a god or gods, or the supernatural, just things we do not understand or know.

Castout

09-05-10, 06:17 AM

Umm... ever read the Old Testament?

And everything has to have a cause? What's god's cause, then? Let me guess - god is exempt... because it just is.

Yes I did read the old testament you must mean examples such as when God commanded through His prophet to Saul to kill another tribe, etc.

Truth is I do not know how to react or to give answer to this but however I could testify that the God I know loved people who didn't know Him at all and who were poor and having a hard life even when they practiced what normally called occultism. I can testify to you that there was one time when I was really really really angry to this man but God literally turned around how I felt by letting me know that his life was hard and then giving me love to love him. No it's not a gay love it was a pure sincere unconditional love, love for the sake of loving another. I loved the man so much that I didn't think I ever love myself that much. I almost told him how much I loved him but I was too embarrassed that the whole minibus would burst into laughter upon hearing that. So I kept it inside.

Know what he never ever gave me any problem after that!:up:. not even once!
Maybe he felt the way I felt somehow.....:hmmm:

I know it was God that gave me that love because it just wasn't me at all and my heart was turned around in an instant upon knowing that his life was hard . . . .don't even know where that sudden knowledge came from out of sudden..but I'm sure it was God.
I know most people wouldn't understand what the heck i'm trying to say here but that is the kind of God that I know who loved people who didn't know Him at all and who is able to change the heart of men in an instant.

I don't know either, but I dont think there is a god or gods, or the supernatural, just things we do not understand or know.

Yea perhaps someday what we now call supernatural could be explained better and put out of mystery and rejection as myth.

antikristuseke

09-05-10, 09:11 AM

The thing there is, as soon as we can explain and understand it, the supernatural ceases to be supernatural and reverts to being natural :O:

Sailor Steve

09-05-10, 11:58 AM

Though I can swear that I do know God exists I do not know for sure whether God created everything
Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.
but since I've found to today that nothing is even remotely close to God it would be a safe bet that He did create everything which would explain the legitimacy of God being in authority and the source of all genuine authority as what I've come to understand and know,
Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.

The one who created everything out of nothing must be logically speaking waaay beyond our understanding even that which is our current best.:D
That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.
Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

DarkFish

09-05-10, 12:17 PM

EXACTLY. A Ferrari is not even created they are produced but not created out of nothing because much less man unable to create anything out of nothing so nothing will certainly not create everything that we know from absolutely nothing.

[...]

There's nothing wrong with using the Ferrari analogy to the whole creation..the truth is what you just wrote actually backed the analogy further so if it took intelligent men to design and produce a something out of something else then it must have taken as well some unimaginably intelligent entity to design and CREATE EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. Because if it took intelligent people just to design and produce something out of something else we know for certain that nothing could not have possibly created anything much less everything.
Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.

If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it? Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years? Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

Castout

09-05-10, 10:16 PM

The thing there is, as soon as we can explain and understand it, the supernatural ceases to be supernatural and reverts to being natural :O:

Supernatural and natural are just words . . .and there are many level of understanding . . . and if you ask why to everything that man claims to have understood the final answer would be they don't know that yet.

Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.

Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.

That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.

Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

I never claimed to be able to show anyone proof of God. And I don't mean to argue either. As to the question to how do I know God exists? Well I saw God. I asked to be shown God and there was given what I asked 18 years ago. Of course this is not a public proof but it was enough of a personal proof to ME alone.

That's just one of the PERSONAL proof that I have of God. I never claim to have a proof of God that applies to everyone nor able to prove it.

I don't mean to offend anyone or ague for the sake of arguing and not much a debate that I can present. . . . . .I just want to make a testimony that I know God exists and no it's not a mere belief. And I'm not the only one obviously then now or ever.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.

Sure but like what I wrote essentially everything must have been created out of nothing in the beginning but Sailor Steve argued that we could not even say that because we don't know anything about what was really in the beginning as there could already be something in the beginning, a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe. Then I think we need to investigate how those something or many everything came into being in the first place before because if they had a beginning that beginning might point to the time of creation of everything . . . .

If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it?

umm I must assume that you didn't really mean Ferrari :DL

Why not?! You certainly not assuming that there's a problem of creating a universe which is taking so much of mankind standard years?

Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years?

Why not if that had been the plan all along?
Or why not even if that had been the best that whatever the creator could create?

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe

Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up :D

And I don't know if there were Ferraris in space either is there much use and anything enjoyable for us out there that's not here already?

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

Actually I was using that Ferrari to make comparison with the life that we are so blessed to enjoy.

A heart that's capable of feeling.....tongue which make the acts of nourishing ourselves a pleasure which is important to give us incentive to preserve ourselves :O:

Or the sun which conveniently placed to give us the optimum heat that would not endanger life.

Or the beautiful nature that compels millions of tourist looking for a refreshing get away to enjoy a scenic holiday be it the sea, the mountain, the lake or the country side.

Life could be much more depressing if all nature had been an ugly piece of ****.:D

But they do not and they are even beautiful and joyful to be enjoyed.
Sure there might be the occasional hurricane, earthquake but life on this planet is very much enjoyable is it not. What I'm trying to say that the planet is convenient for thriving living population.

when you look at the mirror this morning do you like what you are seeing? When you breathe do you not like the air that you breathe in?

Do you not enjoy your life?

And did you work on those things?:O:

No? then your life as much as mine is a gift! And if you said those things happened by themselves the way we enjoy living and just being then . . .WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

TLAM Strike

09-05-10, 10:46 PM

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

...a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe. Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up :D Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.

I've heard that analogy may times, usually using a house rather than a car. The problem is we know how the metal is refined. We know how rubber is manufactured. We know how glass is made. We know how a Ferrari is made even if we lack the ability to build one ourselves.

On the other hand, the metal is in the ground. The rubber comes from rubber plants (actually these days it's made with artificial compounds, but the point is the same). Glass is made from sand. We have a pretty good idea of how the metal gets there, how the tree reproduces, how the sand got there; but we don't know anything beyond that. A tree grows. We can assume that it is 'engineered' by a higher intelligence, but we don't know that it necessarily must be that way. The truth is we don't "know" anything about the why, or if there even is a "why".

I see these things and I wonder, but so far I don't see any answers. Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.

Castout

09-05-10, 11:30 PM

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

Aye but it may be possible or even very that a universe could have been created that would not well suited for any life form to develop. Microscopically speaking the moon doesn't have a life form . . . .and physicists are saying the the universe will lose its capability to sustain life eventually
Not saying that the point was not a good one. :DL

Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.

Is time a derived dimension that resulted from a universe created in motion and which is still in motion or would time be an independent dimension one which existed regardless of motion in space or universe.

Because if time is dependent on the motion in created space then it will not be a dimension itself. It's just there because the universe is in motion.

But your next quote may answer this

Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.

now I can't even imagine how time travel would be accomplished if it were possible I guess time would indeed be another whole dimension and not simply the result of motion in space. Time travel . . . . . .sounds insane doesn't it?

Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.

Aye agree space exploration needs a kind of propulsion or traveling technology that is now still beyond our know how.

Sledgehammer427

09-06-10, 02:34 AM

I still want to know how some Christians can argue that dinosaurs didn't exist, standing in front of a carbon-dated authentic T-Rex skeleton at the natural history museum. It's absolutely baffling.

another thing concerning the big bang theory.
It's not that everything came from nothing. it's that everything came from a singularity. a singular particle exploded [skip ahead skip ahead] and now we have the known universe.
I can't take the bible seriously because it was written 2000 years ago. Do you think the writers knew we would have facebook, twitter, and all this cellphone and personal computer nonsense?
No.
It's a great way to dictate a moral code and standards to live by......
If you live in a society where almost all of your community is illiterate and your only literate person is a storyteller. Give him a biiiig book filled with all this holy knowledge (nowadays, a lot of it is called common sense) and he will go forth and improve the standards of living through his wiseness, thanks to this collection of writings. It's a fascinating story. it's compiled like some kind of epoch. Since just standing around telling everyone this is wrong and you should be nice to people is just silly. we need characters, a storyline, morals and reasons. If you do something outside the boundaries of this moral code, you will spend your afterlife (if such a thing really exists) suffering with no end in sight.
after a few thousand years of documented history, we have this whole Moral code, ways to live, and reasons to be good, down.

Man is adventurous and curious by nature. If god wanted us to believe in him, he would make it far more obvious that he exists, or make the human being stay reclusive and dependent on his knowledge...which, if it really was the best knowledge, guess what adam and eve would have sitting on their nightstand?
a bible.
If simply questioning his existence condemns you to hell...or looking at another woman because you find her attractive for that matter, that's a little drastic, don't you think? In this day and age, almost everything we do but breathing is a sin. There is no proof that this God figure exists. We have no firsthand accounts of a Hell, we have no way to tell if someone is an angel or not.
We will find out how all of this wonderful natural machinery (e.g. ferraris and mountains and stuff) came to be. but it's not our time or our place yet. we will keep searching, and we will discover the true meaning behind why we are here and how we came to be.
The church exists so the misguided, the immoral, and the hopeless can find a true direction on their compass.
Nothing like saying a supernatural being will send you to an eternal suffering ground if you don't straighten your act up right?
I'm sure a devout [insert religion name here] will come along and shoot all of my theories and ideology down. After all, they have a 2000 year old book to back them up.
I'm just a cynical teenager. :DL
Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.
and now I will devote my life to finding such a planet...but perhaps it has already evolved?
maybe the ferraris are working cubicle jobs and programming WEP keys for their routers at home, driving to work on a brand new, shiny human?

antikristuseke

09-06-10, 02:48 AM

I still want to know how some Christians can argue that dinosaurs didn't exist, standing in front of a carbon-dated authentic T-Rex skeleton at the natural history museum. It's absolutely baffling.
I am fairly confident that no T-rex has ever been carbon dated since carbon dating only goes back about 50,000 years due to the half life of the isotopes involved in that particular radiometric dating method, some other radiometric dating method must have been used.
Other than that, this is my daily nitpicking done :D

Sledgehammer427

09-06-10, 05:15 PM

I stand corrected, I just threw in carbon dated to solidify the authenticity.:up:

CaptainMattJ.

09-06-10, 05:30 PM

god is a simplistic reason for the universe. Its for people who dont want to go into extreme depth on the universe. TIME always has been and always will be, and physics always has been and always will be. doesnt mean theres a god. If you try to unravel how the universe created ITSELF, youll literally think yourself to death. With religious nuts, its just simple. god created everything with a whiff of his hand. what a load. Its just a simple answer to the most complex question Man has ever known. Thats why people believe it.

The god people think of doesnt exist. However, the meaning of god does. the all powerful being is physics and Time itself. Everything beyond that is horse S**T

Sailor Steve

09-06-10, 08:33 PM

god is a simplistic reason for the universe.
No offense is meant, but that's a simplistic thing to say.

doesnt mean theres a god.
Unfortunately is also doesn't mean there isn't.

what a load.
Really?

The god people think of doesnt exist.
And you know this for certain? How?

CaptainMattJ.

09-06-10, 08:46 PM

No offense is meant, but that's a simplistic thing to say.

Unfortunately is also doesn't mean there isn't.

Really?

And you know this for certain? How?
well, its astronomical that the god that people depict exists.

And of course thers 0 proof with anything god-related. its quite a complex situation. theres 0 proof that he does exist, and 0 proof he doesnt. however if he doesnt exist, how will there ever be proof? if he does, theress still not going to be proof. Its a conundrum.

i honestly do belive it IS a load. At leaast, that some all powerful all knowing being created the universe with a flick of the wrist and just spawned us out of nowhere.

And how can you not be simplistic about something simple?

TLAM Strike

09-06-10, 10:06 PM

well, its astronomical that the god that people depict exists. Well if the multidimensional universe is infinite then maybe somewhere out there the Judeo-Christian God does exists, it will be a scary day when one of our starships find him...
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zndtXI0e5b0)

Sammi79

09-07-10, 03:43 AM

And of course thers 0 proof with anything god-related. its quite a complex situation. theres 0 proof that he does exist, and 0 proof he doesnt. however if he doesnt exist, how will there ever be proof? if he does, theress still not going to be proof. Its a conundrum.

There is no evidence supporting the existence of God/Gods/creationist myths. There are vast amounts of evidence to support scientific theories about how the universe came into being and how life in all its present forms came to be (in its present form.) I cannot claim to know if Jehovah, Toutatis or Osiris exists/existed or not with absolute certainty. I can however firmly state that the existence of any God/Gods is extremely unlikely.

To deny the obvious nature of evolution and its driving forces is comparable to denying that the earth is roughly spherical rather than flat or that the earth orbits the sun. These two things we know to be a fact and anyone who denies it is being intentionally ignorant. Human beings share parts of their DNA with almost all other life forms on this earth including plants, insects, birds, mammals, fish, and any others that you can think of. We are all distant cousins of every other living thing.

The intelligent design argument is flat out flawed. Human eyes are among the most inefficient in the animal world, coupled with the fact that the 'design' itself leads to myopia almost invariably as we get older. The fact that we walk upright demands we have narrow hips which is counter productive when females give birth through their hips, which leads to human babies being born vastly premature with their brains and skull bones inadequately formed causing a greatly increased parental dependancy time for the offspring. We only grow two sets of teeth (apart from in very very rare cases) in short, the 'design' of the human being is far from perfect.

The argument that without religion or God that humans would have no empathy or morals is just as flawed. If you admit that without any fear of divine retribution you would happily go around killing, stealing, or worse then you are obviously at least a sociopath if not a complete psycho and we would be well advised to lock you up now before by some chance you decide that in light of recently observed evidence that God does not exist. Empathy comes from the concept of putting yourself in someone/something elses shoes. I sometimes accidentally kill small creatures (spiders, beetles etc.) as I work outdoors and the inevitable feeling of guilt comes from my imagination about how I would feel if our roles were reversed, and how the situation could have been avoided. The trick is, I hold myself accountable for these accidents and if I see a way to avoid them (peacefully evicting a spider before I drop a 3.5 ton load on his new house) then I will always attempt to do so.

I do not write to offend and if it causes offence I am truly sorry. I feel only that it is my duty to say these things, and if by some miraculous chance that God does exist, then he obviously wants me to be an Atheist and I am fairly sure he wants you and everybody else to be too.

Sailor Steve

09-07-10, 11:49 AM

well, its astronomical that the god that people depict exists.
True. But a 99.9999999999% certainty is still not a fact in evidence.

And of course thers 0 proof with anything god-related. its quite a complex situation. theres 0 proof that he does exist, and 0 proof he doesnt. however if he doesnt exist, how will there ever be proof? if he does, theress still not going to be proof. Its a conundrum.
Which was exactly my point. I no longer see a reason to believe, but it is impossible for me to disbelieve, since the only thing I know for certain is that I don't know.

i honestly do belive it IS a load. At leaast, that some all powerful all knowing being created the universe with a flick of the wrist and just spawned us out of nowhere.
And that is just fine, since we all get to believe what we want. My only point was there is a difference between saying "I think it's stupid" and saying "It's stupid". One is an opinion, the other is a statement of fact, and unless the facts are actually in evidence then it becomes an opinion stated as a fact, which implies knowledge we don't really have, which means that we're basing an argument on a lie.

I just like to keep my facts in order. :D

And how can you not be simplistic about something simple?
It's easy. Just rationalize your statements and they can mean anything you want. Just joking there, but calling something simplistic when the person who believes it doesn't see it that way doesn't help the argument, it merely exacerbates it. To my mind it's always better to discuss than to dismiss; if for no other reason than that you never know if they might actually be right. :dead:

DarkFish

09-07-10, 01:45 PM

TarJak

09-07-10, 09:47 PM

Ok, one advantage of being drunk is that you see everything a 1000 times more clearly:O:
There is no proof any god exists or doesn't exist. It's no use discussing about that. All I know is that if the christian god really exists, I will end up in Hell. Sending me to Hell for something as simple as not believing in the christian god would make very clear the christian god is a sadistic being longing for power. The kind of being I would not want to live with for a whole eternity.
If it's really that simple, I prefer the christian devil.

Germanic Paganism at the very least doesn't have a hell (which proves the relative sadism of the christian belief), and furthermore it doesn't matter what one beliefs, but only what kind of person you are.

Heil Æsir ok Ásynjur ok Vanir! Ek mun deyja heiðinn! Dauðr Kristi!
Judeo Christian life after death is based on carrot vs stick thinking. If you are good you get a reward, if you are bad you get punished. Simplistic I know but that's the basis.

I'd like to understand why people feel there is a need for an afterlife at all. Is it the fear of being forgotten? No longer being part of the herd?

I didn't exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die. Like just about everything else in this universe, everything has a beginning and an end with no need for there to be an everlasting continuum of existence. Sure some thing shave very long lives by our relatively miniscule standards, but in the end the laws of entropy will envelop this universe and potentially create the next, if indeed that's what happened this time.

I'm comfortable with knowing that my molecular structures will live on in my children and theirs and so on. After my death the will continue to exist by being returned to the universe as they break down to the basic elements we are all made from.

I don't find that thought in any way frightening nor difficult to understand and to be honest it makes more logical sense that a "spirit/soul", the existence of which cannot be proven by our science, will live on forever in some version of either "heaven" or "hell".

If we are not in "heaven/paradise" already, then where are we? In my opinion, life itself is paradise with everything we need for happiness available to us but not without risk. The risks in your life are what make you feel alive and the risks you take are largely in proportion to the rewards on offer from taking those risks.

Taking risks is an essential element in the human condition and any lessening of the risks means that we lose the ability to learn from our mistakes or feel the exhiliration of being alive that risks provide. At these times people are usually feeling the best they are likely to ever feel.

If you took no risks you would never get out of bed, but that would lead to a risk of bed sores so even that option is not entirely without risk.

How dull it would be to have nothing to be anxious about, nothing more dangerous or exciting in your life than breathing in and out.

The need to feel unfettered by concerns, anxieties and risks would end up making us much duller and less experienced and far less able beings than we currently are.

A paradise without risk seems to me, would be an empty existence, without the thrill of being alive and having something at stake. So my plan is to enjoy life, take some risks and no worry about what happens when I'm not here anymore other than making sure my death is not a financial burden for my remaining family when I go.

TLAM Strike

09-07-10, 10:53 PM

I didn't exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die. Like just about everything else in this universe, everything has a beginning and an end with no need for there to be an everlasting continuum of existence.

Well there is a everlasting continuum of sorts.

This is where I think the Buddhists got it right.

In no chemical reaction is any matter created or destroyed.

Every atom in you body was created in the furnace of a star and blasted in to the universe when it exploded, it was seeded through out the universe forming the basis for new stars and planets. Long after you die our star expands in to a red giant and consumes the Earth then expels most of the remaining mater in to the universe as a planetary nebula forming the basis for future stars, planets and perhaps entire civilizations.

I think that the idea that perhaps an entire civilization was formed or will form out of some of the atoms from my body is more comforting than any angles on white clouds with harps or 72 virgins or whatever some say is waiting for us.

CaptainMattJ.

09-07-10, 11:18 PM

There is no evidence supporting the existence of God/Gods/creationist myths. There are vast amounts of evidence to support scientific theories about how the universe came into being and how life in all its present forms came to be (in its present form.) I cannot claim to know if Jehovah, Toutatis or Osiris exists/existed or not with absolute certainty. I can however firmly state that the existence of any God/Gods is extremely unlikely.

To deny the obvious nature of evolution and its driving forces is comparable to denying that the earth is roughly spherical rather than flat or that the earth orbits the sun. These two things we know to be a fact and anyone who denies it is being intentionally ignorant. Human beings share parts of their DNA with almost all other life forms on this earth including plants, insects, birds, mammals, fish, and any others that you can think of. We are all distant cousins of every other living thing.

The intelligent design argument is flat out flawed. Human eyes are among the most inefficient in the animal world, coupled with the fact that the 'design' itself leads to myopia almost invariably as we get older. The fact that we walk upright demands we have narrow hips which is counter productive when females give birth through their hips, which leads to human babies being born vastly premature with their brains and skull bones inadequately formed causing a greatly increased parental dependancy time for the offspring. We only grow two sets of teeth (apart from in very very rare cases) in short, the 'design' of the human being is far from perfect.

The argument that without religion or God that humans would have no empathy or morals is just as flawed. If you admit that without any fear of divine retribution you would happily go around killing, stealing, or worse then you are obviously at least a sociopath if not a complete psycho and we would be well advised to lock you up now before by some chance you decide that in light of recently observed evidence that God does not exist. Empathy comes from the concept of putting yourself in someone/something elses shoes. I sometimes accidentally kill small creatures (spiders, beetles etc.) as I work outdoors and the inevitable feeling of guilt comes from my imagination about how I would feel if our roles were reversed, and how the situation could have been avoided. The trick is, I hold myself accountable for these accidents and if I see a way to avoid them (peacefully evicting a spider before I drop a 3.5 ton load on his new house) then I will always attempt to do so.

I do not write to offend and if it causes offence I am truly sorry. I feel only that it is my duty to say these things, and if by some miraculous chance that God does exist, then he obviously wants me to be an Atheist and I am fairly sure he wants you and everybody else to be too.
im not quite sure if you took my post the wrong way :doh:

i was supporting that the odds are Insanely astronomical that that christian, muslim or any other god depicted in religion does exist.

CaptainMattJ.

09-07-10, 11:27 PM

Judeo Christian life after death is based on carrot vs stick thinking. If you are good you get a reward, if you are bad you get punished. Simplistic I know but that's the basis.

I'd like to understand why people feel there is a need for an afterlife at all. Is it the fear of being forgotten? No longer being part of the herd?

I didn't exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die. Like just about everything else in this universe, everything has a beginning and an end with no need for there to be an everlasting continuum of existence. Sure some thing shave very long lives by our relatively miniscule standards, but in the end the laws of entropy will envelop this universe and potentially create the next, if indeed that's what happened this time.

I'm comfortable with knowing that my molecular structures will live on in my children and theirs and so on. After my death the will continue to exist by being returned to the universe as they break down to the basic elements we are all made from.

I don't find that thought in any way frightening nor difficult to understand and to be honest it makes more logical sense that a "spirit/soul", the existence of which cannot be proven by our science, will live on forever in some version of either "heaven" or "hell".

If we are not in "heaven/paradise" already, then where are we? In my opinion, life itself is paradise with everything we need for happiness available to us but not without risk. The risks in your life are what make you feel alive and the risks you take are largely in proportion to the rewards on offer from taking those risks.

Taking risks is an essential element in the human condition and any lessening of the risks means that we lose the ability to learn from our mistakes or feel the exhiliration of being alive that risks provide. At these times people are usually feeling the best they are likely to ever feel.

If you took no risks you would never get out of bed, but that would lead to a risk of bed sores so even that option is not entirely without risk.

How dull it would be to have nothing to be anxious about, nothing more dangerous or exciting in your life than breathing in and out.

The need to feel unfettered by concerns, anxieties and risks would end up making us much duller and less experienced and far less able beings than we currently are.

A paradise without risk seems to me, would be an empty existence, without the thrill of being alive and having something at stake. So my plan is to enjoy life, take some risks and no worry about what happens when I'm not here anymore other than making sure my death is not a financial burden for my remaining family when I go.
people believe in the afterlife for the sole purpose of their importance. If you knew the universe was BILLLLIOOOOONNNNS of years old and your "being" existed for only about 70 (on average) years then itd be pretty sad. i believe of course there isnt an afterlife, but id like it if there was. not the christian BS about heaven and hell, but just an afterlife somewhere. itd be nice to live longer. you cant experience enough in the short span we live, and for that i feel regret. there will be of course the lack of thrill about there being something to risk.

Sammi79

09-08-10, 02:18 AM

im not quite sure if you took my post the wrong way :doh:

Sorry CaptainMatt I did not take your post the wrong way, i just wanted to describe that just because there will never be absolute proof either way does not mean there is an even chance of it being true or not - to me it is no great conundrum. I am convinced there is no God and no afterlife. Heaven and hell exist for people here on earth within their experience. Of course I can see the attraction of an afterlife, and the essentialist desire that all things must have a purpose, but being an attractive idea does not give it validity. The fact that I think this way means that to me it is all the more important to live life to the full and to experience as many wonders as I can in this short life of mine. It also means that I and only I am responsible for my actions.

People must be allowed to believe or more correctly 'have faith' in what they choose to be true for themselves but, The moment that a religious sect calls for a holy war against another, or teachers of science start denying scientific fact over religious literature, things have gone too far and 'religion' or 'God' can now be seen as harmful to humanity in general, and therefore should be relegated to its proper place - great literature and mytholgical legend.

TarJak

09-08-10, 05:51 AM

Well there is a everlasting continuum of sorts.

This is where I think the Buddhists got it right.

In no chemical reaction is any matter created or destroyed.

Every atom in you body was created in the furnace of a star and blasted in to the universe when it exploded, it was seeded through out the universe forming the basis for new stars and planets. Long after you die our star expands in to a red giant and consumes the Earth then expels most of the remaining mater in to the universe as a planetary nebula forming the basis for future stars, planets and perhaps entire civilizations.

I think that the idea that perhaps an entire civilization was formed or will form out of some of the atoms from my body is more comforting than any angles on white clouds with harps or 72 virgins or whatever some say is waiting for us.
In as much as the present universe is everlasting, I agree with you. I was specifically addressing the continuum of the "soul" proposed by most religions with the quoted comment.

If you define a human's soul as the elements that we are made of, then I'm up for that definition of "afterlife".

CaptainMattJ.

09-08-10, 06:55 PM

Sorry CaptainMatt I did not take your post the wrong way, i just wanted to describe that just because there will never be absolute proof either way does not mean there is an even chance of it being true or not - to me it is no great conundrum. I am convinced there is no God and no afterlife. Heaven and hell exist for people here on earth within their experience. Of course I can see the attraction of an afterlife, and the essentialist desire that all things must have a purpose, but being an attractive idea does not give it validity. The fact that I think this way means that to me it is all the more important to live life to the full and to experience as many wonders as I can in this short life of mine. It also means that I and only I am responsible for my actions.

People must be allowed to believe or more correctly 'have faith' in what they choose to be true for themselves but, The moment that a religious sect calls for a holy war against another, or teachers of science start denying scientific fact over religious literature, things have gone too far and 'religion' or 'God' can now be seen as harmful to humanity in general, and therefore should be relegated to its proper place - great literature and mytholgical legend.
:sign_yeah::agree: