[REQ] Maintain depth fix

[Petr]

I know that this problem is solved for example by UHS, but this solution is quite imperfect (boat does not go so deep as you order).

Maybe I have key to this issue. My VII A and B have maintain depth problems, but myVII C is almost perfect (goes just 1m shallower than ordered).
So I would like to ask you, experienced modders, to try to find solution for A and B.
I can provide you all my VIIC files, which may help to find where is the problem I think.

[andycaccia]

Hi Petr,
I've tried the same fix you're talking about, but it left me disappointed.
So I made one myself. There is nothing scientific about it, I only tried again and again by changing mass values in the .sim values of each boat with a brute force approach, but at the end the results were good indeed. My fix works for all boats (I did not change the VIIA, but i guess it can be fixed as the others).

If you're interested I could explain how I did it..

[TheDarkWraith]

please explain away :up:

[andycaccia]

Ok guys, here is the trick...but beware! There are some side effects...:D

It's a very simple tweak, provided that you are familiar with Goblin Editor
(if it's not your case, there is a simple guide:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165805 ).

Now, open any of the u boats .gr2 file. Let's take the VIIB for example, but it will work on every model, now merge the NSS_Uboat7b.GR2 with the proper NSS_Uboat7b.sim file.

under "NSS_Uboat7b.sim" open the "unit_Submarine @ NSS_Uboat7b"
in the new window select the "unit_submarine", found under the "Render" tree.

And here we go, now pay attention...:o

1) find the *mass* value in unit_Submarine -->unit_Ship-->obj_Hydro, here change the value to 852.8.

2) now go for "surfaced"--> "displacement" and set the value to 853,
do he same with "submerged"--> "dispalecement" and set to 857.

3) last thing, search for the "Front_diveplane" and "Rear_diveplane" under "unit_Ship" and set the "drag" and "prop_fact" to 0.1 and 0 respectively for both dive planes.

And it's done. With theese little tweaks my VIIB and VIIC boats work like a dream. They keep depth very very well down to 200 meters. There is still a lite sinking effect, but nothing like the stock game. Now if your boat is at 220m and you keep running at 1knot the boat will not sink anymore. Even if you stop the engines and loose some meters (but it's very slow), as soon as you gain movement the boat will stablize itself at ordered depth.

Additional tweak: I don't know if it has a real impact on the game, but I've boosted the power of the electric motors as well, just to make sure the boat has the necessary horsepower to make it against the water resistance while climbing up when rudders are in rise position..
under "E_propulsion" set the "eng_power" value to 1500 (which was the real total power output of the electric motors anyway 750+750). Note that this will not affect the u boat speed while submerged, only the acceleration.

I Think it's everything. :yeah:


OH NO! I almost forgot the in-famous side effects...:damn:
well, nothing serious really.. only diving times are a LOT FASTER.
A possible solution is to adjust the values under the "Ballast" tree, although I have not tested.

P:S Sorry for my poor English, I hope it is clear enough...

[longam]

And your releasing this mod when? :D

[andycaccia]

Actually I haven't planned a mod release, because there are some other tests and adjustments to be made. The problem is that I have almost no time and a poor machine (Pentium 4HT 3.0Ghz + Radeon x 1800) that barely allows me to launch the game, with epic loading times and frequent CTDs and/or BEX error (Buffer overflow Exceptions) that prevent me from doing my modding proprely.
I guess I could release a beta version as soon as possible, but I will need time for a complete release.

I'll keep you informed.:)

Anyway longam, you can do this yourself, it's very easy! It will take less than 10 minutes to modify all sim files for all 4 U boats (from VIIA to VIIC/41).

[longam]

Thats ok, I have a feeling someone is already on it. :03:please explain away :up:

[andycaccia]

Ok, I have a beta version containig the VIIB VIIC and VIIC/41 .sim and . cfg files. It's JSGME ready. Now I must upload to subsim donwload section. Since I am a new Modder, I sent a pm to request access to the upload files function.:yeah:

[longam]

Thank You Sir!

[Krauter]

Cheers matey :)

But please, explain how UHS does not, uh, 'fix' the problem for you? I haven't noticed any real problems with UHS and I love the way the boat sits in the water with that Mod.

But if you files fix the depth issue than by all means I will overwrite UHS with yours

[Akula4745]

Any word on how these changes affect other mods? I dunno about you gents... but I have a ton of mods running.

[andycaccia]

Cheers matey :)

But please, explain how UHS does not, uh, 'fix' the problem for you? I haven't noticed any real problems with UHS and I love the way the boat sits in the water with that Mod.

But if you files fix the depth issue than by all means I will overwrite UHS with yours

Hi Krauter, maybe I was wrong about your mod...I remember a fix found here some time ago... I have on my pc the U boat Historical Specification 1.4, so I guess it's your fix. I only felt that the subs had a strange behaviour with your mod enabled, which was in fact quite the opposite of the sinking effect you tried to fix. But pheraphs it's only me...

Simply I made another fix myself. I've changed nothing else. Moreover, I could not use the historical values (mass, displacement) because that would have worsened the problem.
With my settings the boats keep depth almost perfectly, but there are some side effcts (very fast diving times and very slow surfacing times if theb boat is not moving), so my mod is not perfect.

**beta version now available for donwload at subsim**

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2779

[eon850aye]

@ andycaccia,
have tried your method, and the depth fix works a treat, but...
...when surfaced the sub looks like it's on rails, fine in calm waters, but as soon as the wind picks up, well, it doesn't look good. :arrgh!:
In a perfect world, I'd like to have UHS1.4mod on the surface and your mod when submerged. :yeah:
Any chance of Krauter & yourself tying the (mod) knot.

[ddrgn]

Quick FYI - I made UHS not Krauter, I do appreciate that its a popular mod and may refine it to fit with some of the current mods....

Can someone help me understand the problem with the stock game is exactly?

Is this all about the boat being at depth and continuously sinking at slow speeds?

[Krauter]

Please note that I did in no way, shape or form attempt to take credit for your work ddrgn

[ddrgn]

Please note that I did in no way, shape or form attempt to take credit for your work ddrgn

Ya I know, just wanted to clear it up before others got confused ;)

[Wolfling04]

Quick FYI - I made UHS not Krauter, I do appreciate that its a popular mod and may refine it to fit with some of the current mods....

Can someone help me understand the problem with the stock game is exactly?

Is this all about the boat being at depth and continuously sinking at slow speeds?

yes ddrgn the issue is the viia and viib (its the only two ive used thus far), continually sink after about 80-90meters at slow speeds, any speed that I have encountered below 5knts the boat constantly sinks.

[Krauter]

Cheers :) just didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea :)

[THE_MASK]

No matter what depth i go to the sub holds depth at stop or any speed . I play on 100% realism . I just tried going to 135 meters in a Vii and it held depth for 1 hour at 0 knots and 1 knot the same . It must be mods or lack of .
Generic Mod Enabler - v2.5.0.150
[C:\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 5\MODS]
Accurate German Flags
RemoveLogoIntroTheDarkWraith
SD_MapCourseLine_tiny_arrows_ocred
Loading Screens Mod 2.0
Lite Campaign LC 1.2
No magic skills v1.5
MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt faces
Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
Sh5EnvModGold
Capthelms SH5 Audio Mod
AilClouds 3.0
AilMoon 1.5
German U-Boat Internal Routine SFX
North Atlantic Green 1.1
sobers 100% underwater FX
sobers hyrophone fix
sobers base wave mechanics for SH5 v3
No Ship Wakes 1.2
sobers no footstep sound mod
sobers silent hud
sobers talking conning crew mod
Speech fixes and additions (english version)
sobers multi color mod
No Damn Bubbles, No Damn Halo Mod
NDB,NDH OM#1 - No Dialog Indicator
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_alt_officer_wounded_by_naights
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_Waypoint_Contacts_Same_Shape_No_C olor
MRP 1.3
Krauters Automated Scripts
IRAI_0_0_22_ByTheDarkWraith
IRAI_0_0_22_No_hydrophone_on_surface_No_Aircraft_s potting

[eon850aye]

Quick FYI - I made UHS not Krauter, I do appreciate that its a popular mod and may refine it to fit with some of the current mods....

Can someone help me understand the problem with the stock game is exactly?

Is this all about the boat being at depth and continuously sinking at slow speeds?

Pretty much, down to 175m, I've got no problems, any more than that is when it happens for me @ minimum speed.

Please note that I did in no way, shape or form attempt to take credit for your work ddrgn

My bad guys, please accept my appologies for the confusion :oops:

[Ragtag]

No matter what depth i go to the sub holds depth at stop or any speed . I play on 100% realism . I just tried going to 135 meters in a Vii and it held depth for 1 hour at 0 knots and 1 knot the same . It must be mods or lack of .
Generic Mod Enabler - v2.5.0.150
[C:\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 5\MODS]
Accurate German Flags
RemoveLogoIntroTheDarkWraith
SD_MapCourseLine_tiny_arrows_ocred
Loading Screens Mod 2.0
Lite Campaign LC 1.2
No magic skills v1.5
MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt faces
Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
Sh5EnvModGold
Capthelms SH5 Audio Mod
AilClouds 3.0
AilMoon 1.5
German U-Boat Internal Routine SFX
North Atlantic Green 1.1
sobers 100% underwater FX
sobers hyrophone fix
sobers base wave mechanics for SH5 v3
No Ship Wakes 1.2
sobers no footstep sound mod
sobers silent hud
sobers talking conning crew mod
Speech fixes and additions (english version)
sobers multi color mod
No Damn Bubbles, No Damn Halo Mod
NDB,NDH OM#1 - No Dialog Indicator
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_alt_officer_wounded_by_naights
NewUIs_TDC_4_1_0_Waypoint_Contacts_Same_Shape_No_C olor
MRP 1.3
Krauters Automated Scripts
IRAI_0_0_22_ByTheDarkWraith
IRAI_0_0_22_No_hydrophone_on_surface_No_Aircraft_s potting

VIIC works fine yes. It's the VIIA and B that has the "bug". If it stops diving for you it must be a mod that fixes it or you have used a mod previously that hasn't removed it self properly.

[andycaccia]

@ andycaccia,
have tried your method, and the depth fix works a treat, but...
...when surfaced the sub looks like it's on rails, fine in calm waters, but as soon as the wind picks up, well, it doesn't look good. :arrgh!:
In a perfect world, I'd like to have UHS1.4mod on the surface and your mod when submerged. :yeah:
Any chance of Krauter & yourself tying the (mod) knot.


That's because I have made only the depth keeping modifications, leaving avery other value like stock. UHS also tweaks the center of gravity plus something else to make the physics more lifelike.

I think theese two mods can be merged...

[andycaccia]

@ andycaccia,
have tried your method, and the depth fix works a treat, but...
...when surfaced the sub looks like it's on rails, fine in calm waters, but as soon as the wind picks up, well, it doesn't look good. :arrgh!:
In a perfect world, I'd like to have UHS1.4mod on the surface and your mod when submerged. :yeah:
Any chance of Krauter & yourself tying the (mod) knot.


Well, after a little more testing I am afraid that a "merging" can not be done.:down:
In fact, the submarine on rails is a direct effect of the very small difference between surfaced and submerged displacements, and unfortunatly, is this diffarence that makes the submarines sink down. I fear the we can not have both realistic sailing and proper depth keeping using this method, but I am considering the idea of apening a new thread and discuss possible solutions.:hmmm:

[Kromus]

There is simply NO solution for this in SH5.
All you can have is what is done in "UHS" mod - draft is set to 5,45 instead of 4,5 = sub does not fly as much as when stock setting used.

Believe me, ppl tried to tweak this for weeks (including me) so unless ubi does not change their wave engine/sub mass algorythm, it will always look like it moves on rails.

Or, of course, you can do what we done here 100 times - increase submerged mass/displacement and lower up/down drag for surfaced "obj_hydro".
I`ve had a little success when editing "sim.cfg":
---------------------------
[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.3
Waves attenuation=0.75
---------------------------
These values govern how waves affect surcafe behavior too, but also detecting times for AI ships etc. so tweak this with caution.

I`ve also tried to tweak "submerged draught" to 7,5m (6 was stock I think) -> it also helped a bit so ship pitched up and down the waves but it also slowed surfacing procedure - sub stopped to surface at 7,5M and it was surfacing only very slowly up to 5,45m which is surface draft (about 2 min until fully surfaced when not using "blow ballast"- if you do then you surfaced faster)

Try it if you want its easily done and you`ll understand what i meant :)

[andycaccia]

There is simply NO solution for this in SH5.
All you can have is what is done in "UHS" mod - draft is set to 5,45 instead of 4,5 = sub does not fly as much as when stock setting used.

Believe me, ppl tried to tweak this for weeks (including me) so unless ubi does not change their wave engine/sub mass algorythm, it will always look like it moves on rails.

Or, of course, you can do what we done here 100 times - increase submerged mass/displacement and lower up/down drag for surfaced "obj_hydro".
I`ve had a little success when editing "sim.cfg":
---------------------------
[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.3
Waves attenuation=0.75
---------------------------
These values govern how waves affect surcafe behavior too, but also detecting times for AI ships etc. so tweak this with caution.

I`ve also tried to tweak "submerged draught" to 7,5m (6 was stock I think) -> it also helped a bit so ship pitched up and down the waves but it also slowed surfacing procedure - sub stopped to surface at 7,5M and it was surfacing only very slowly up to 5,45m which is surface draft (about 2 min until fully surfaced when not using "blow ballast"- if you do then you surfaced faster)

Try it if you want its easily done and you`ll understand what i meant :)

No no...I know, I have done some testing myself without viable results. I hoped someone else had found another way. Now I realize, and you are confirming that to me, that there is no solution for both problems at the same time with SH5.:wah:
My fix is perfect (almost perfect) for depth keeping, but has a very heavy "submarine on rails" effect. :-?

Thank you for the help and infos:).

[Kromus]

Sorry if I sound too negativistic here, you are of course free to try anything that could help, I`d be very happy if someone could finally do it right if there`s really some "hidden" solution for this...

[andycaccia]

This bug is real pain... it ruins gameplay, realism and is difficult to fix. It was also present in SH4 and in some measure even in SH3 ( I remember tweaking a VIIC/42 and bringing it down to 400m. At such depth it slowly started sinking. I would like to see the .sim files of SH3 and search for clues, since the game engine is very similar at the core.

Dont worry, if I ever will be able to find a solution for this I will tell.:arrgh!:

One last thing: do you know what the "put_on_water" thing is? How does it affect gameplay? It should have something to do with the physic model of the ship...

Cheers:DL

[Kromus]

One last thing: do you know what the "put_on_water" thing is? How does it affect gameplay? It should have something to do with the physic model of the ship...


Maybe it can float and reacts on water behavior (not a static object or something) :) Really no other idea sorry.

[andycaccia]

Maybe it can floats and reacts on water behavior (not a static object or something) :) Really no other idea sorry.

My thought as well, thanks. I am messing around with everithing...:damn: sorry to bother.

Have a nice day!

[TheDarkWraith]

One last thing: do you know what the "put_on_water" thing is? How does it affect gameplay? It should have something to do with the physic model of the ship...

maybe this will help you all figure it out (also tells you what put on water does):

HydroCtrl.cpp.The object's front-rear drag coef...FR..The object's up-down drag coef..UD..The object's left-right drag coef...LR..The object's drag (water resistance) coefs [F=C*v^2]....The object's draught [m]. If 0, then the geometric bounding box height is taken.....draught.....The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then it is automaticaly computed.....displacement....The object's submerged parameters...Submerged.......The object's draught [m]. If 0, then it is taken from the object's global position......The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then the object's mass is taken..The object's surfaced parameters....Surfaced....Put the hydro object on the water at the surfaced draught...bool....put_on_water........Gravity center horizontal position [>0]. 1=FRONT, 0.5=MIDDLE, 0=REAR....fr_ratio........Gravity center height from the object's bottom [m]. If 0, then the half of geometric bounding box is taken..gc_height...The object's mass [Tons]. If 0, then the object's surfaced displacement is taken....mass....Display the object's submerged draught..SD..Display the object's gravity center.....GC..Display the object's parameters.....params..Debug display settings..Debug...Hydro controller: controlls an object that can float....obj_Hydro...hull

[Nicolas]

Hello, you can copy the drag etc values from VIIC to VIIA/B to correct sinking, i don't know deeper than 200 what happens.

[andycaccia]

maybe this will help you all figure it out (also tells you what put on water does):

HydroCtrl.cpp.The object's front-rear drag coef...FR..The object's up-down drag coef..UD..The object's left-right drag coef...LR..The object's drag (water resistance) coefs [F=C*v^2]....The object's draught [m]. If 0, then the geometric bounding box height is taken.....draught.....The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then it is automaticaly computed.....displacement....The object's submerged parameters...Submerged.......The object's draught [m]. If 0, then it is taken from the object's global position......The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then the object's mass is taken..The object's surfaced parameters....Surfaced....Put the hydro object on the water at the surfaced draught...bool....put_on_water........Gravity center horizontal position [>0]. 1=FRONT, 0.5=MIDDLE, 0=REAR....fr_ratio........Gravity center height from the object's bottom [m]. If 0, then the half of geometric bounding box is taken..gc_height...The object's mass [Tons]. If 0, then the object's surfaced displacement is taken....mass....Display the object's submerged draught..SD..Display the object's gravity center.....GC..Display the object's parameters.....params..Debug display settings..Debug...Hydro controller: controlls an object that can float....obj_Hydro...hull

Thank you, but those descriptions are the same displayed by goblineditor, so I guess everybody already knows them. My question was about the actual effects it could have in game. but don't worry: I found the answer on my own: basically nothing changes if you turn this off.

[andycaccia]

Hello, you can copy the drag etc values from VIIC to VIIA/B to correct sinking, i don't know deeper than 200 what happens.

I fear it's not that easy. I've done this but it doesn't work for me. Cloning a VIIC sim file still leaves the sinking effect. Does it work for you?

[Nicolas]

Yes it worked, i opened the .gr2 file and merged it with the .sim then i copied all the values that i thought was relative to depth keeping including mass displacement surfaced and submerged, drag.

[andycaccia]

Yes it worked, i opened the .gr2 file and merged it with the .sim then i copied all the values that i thought was relative to depth keeping including mass displacement surfaced and submerged, drag.

I see, I have done the same. This solved the porblem relative to the VIIB which
was unable to keep the ordered depth (it goes 4 meters lower than ordered at 40m depth and slightly less ar shallower depths) but still leaves the slow sinking effect. For example, can you keep your boat stable at 180m at very low speed with your method? I remember the VIIcs sinking down anyway...

[eon850aye]

under "E_propulsion" set the "eng_power" value to 1500 (which was the real total power output of the electric motors anyway 750+750).

Sorry to be a stickler for historic specification, and sorry for kicking you repeatedly whilst down, but strictly speaking, this isn't true.
I was in the middle of moving house when SH5 was released & my typeVII bible (Anatomy of the Ship - The Type VII U-boat by David Westwood, taken from his Ph.D thesis on German U-boats from 1935-45) was packed away, dug it out this morning...
...it says

Type VIIa
2 BBC (Brown Boveri & Co) GG UB 720/8 electric motors totalling 750shp

Type VIIb
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors totalling 750shp

Type VIIc
U's 69-72, 89, 93-98, 201-212, 235-300, 331-348, 351-374, 431-450, 731-750, 1051-1058, 1063, 1068, 1191-1214, 1271-1285, 1301-1312;
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors

U's 77-82, 88, 90-92, 99, 100, 132-136, 401, 451, 452, 551-650, 751, 821-840, 929-936, 951-1050;
2 BBC (Brown Boveri & Co) GG UB 720/8 electric motors

U's 301-330, 375-400, 701-730, 752-782, 1131, 1132;
2 GL (Garbe, Lahmeyer) RP 137/c electric motors

U's 349, 350, 402-430, 453-458, 465-486, 651-698, 901-912, 921-928, 1101-1110, 1161-1170;
2 SSW (Siemens-Schuckert-Werke) GU 343/38-8 electric motors
Output totalled 750shp in all cases

Type VIId & f
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors totalling 750shp

Whether or not it makes a whole lot of difference I dont' know, but I am gonna mess around with this myself this weekend (no football on this weekend - english premiership):wah:
Am also going to look at the displacements as a few of those seem to wrong. Well not wrong so to speak, they mostly seem to be dry weights, no water/fuel, unmanned and unloaded, see if those play any part.
I'll let you know of anything significant andycaccia.

[andycaccia]

Sorry to be a stickler for historic specification, and sorry for kicking you repeatedly whilst down, but strictly speaking, this isn't true.
I was in the middle of moving house when SH5 was released & my typeVII bible (Anatomy of the Ship - The Type VII U-boat by David Westwood, taken from his Ph.D thesis on German U-boats from 1935-45) was packed away, dug it out this morning...
...it says

Type VIIa
2 BBC (Brown Boveri & Co) GG UB 720/8 electric motors totalling 750shp

Type VIIb
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors totalling 750shp

Type VIIc
U's 69-72, 89, 93-98, 201-212, 235-300, 331-348, 351-374, 431-450, 731-750, 1051-1058, 1063, 1068, 1191-1214, 1271-1285, 1301-1312;
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors

U's 77-82, 88, 90-92, 99, 100, 132-136, 401, 451, 452, 551-650, 751, 821-840, 929-936, 951-1050;
2 BBC (Brown Boveri & Co) GG UB 720/8 electric motors

U's 301-330, 375-400, 701-730, 752-782, 1131, 1132;
2 GL (Garbe, Lahmeyer) RP 137/c electric motors

U's 349, 350, 402-430, 453-458, 465-486, 651-698, 901-912, 921-928, 1101-1110, 1161-1170;
2 SSW (Siemens-Schuckert-Werke) GU 343/38-8 electric motors
Output totalled 750shp in all cases

Type VIId & f
2 AEG GU 460/8-276 electric motors totalling 750shp

Whether or not it makes a whole lot of difference I dont' know, but I am gonna mess around with this myself this weekend (no football on this weekend - english premiership):wah:
Am also going to look at the displacements as a few of those seem to wrong. Well not wrong so to speak, they mostly seem to be dry weights, no water/fuel, unmanned and unloaded, see if those play any part.
I'll let you know of anything significant andycaccia.

I saw (almost) the same data on wikipedia, and I guess they're correct. Anyway, changing the power output in the .sim files doesn't affect gaming. I only used that value to make sure the boat would have the necessary thrust to compensate the increased rudder efficiency.

And I remind you that I was not looking for historical specifications, instead I was working to find a solution for the siniking effect. Data about mass and displacements were correct, but the submarines had unacceptable behaviour while submerged..so I had to make changes. Thank you for your help, tell me if you find some solution for this. Good luck

[eon850aye]

And I remind you that I was not looking for historical specifications, instead I was working to find a solution for the siniking effect. Data about mass and displacements were correct, but the submarines had unacceptable behaviour while submerged..so I had to make changes. Thank you for your help, tell me if you find some solution for this. Good luck

Oh I know, sux big, not much point in ordering 190m if your either not going to make it that far or just dive straight through:down:
Well just finished running comprehensive depth tests using the UHS_1.4 mod, down to 200m(7a,b,c) & 250m(7c/41) running at Ahead Slow & Flank speeds, and to my results the 7b is the best, although still shallow at both speeds, depths are maintained closest when running at flank, but thats no good when your trying to evade & escape a bunch of sub hungry destroyers.
I'll run the same tests again tomorrow using your suggested values, I'll also take a look at HanSolos Improved Waves, Pitch and Roll mod which also says its cures the maintaining depth problem, but I have yet to try it.
I'll pass on todays results to ddrgn, see if it matches up with his results, if he wants them & once I've typed them up.
Will let you as soon as.

[andycaccia]

Oh I know, sux big, not much point in ordering 190m if your either not going to make it that far or just dive straight through:down:
Well just finished running comprehensive depth tests using the UHS_1.4 mod, down to 200m(7a,b,c) & 250m(7c/41) running at Ahead Slow & Flank speeds, and to my results the 7b is the best, although still shallow at both speeds, depths are maintained closest when running at flank, but thats no good when your trying to evade & escape a bunch of sub hungry destroyers.
I'll run the same tests again tomorrow using your suggested values, I'll also take a look at HanSolos Improved Waves, Pitch and Roll mod which also says its cures the maintaining depth problem, but I have yet to try it.
I'll pass on todays results to ddrgn, see if it matches up with his results, if he wants them & once I've typed them up.
Will let you as soon as.

Keep on mind my friend that with my values you'll have very fast diving times and a really terrible submarine on rails effect in stormy seas.:damn: Depth keepig capabilities, instead, are very good on all tweaked models. :up:

Cheers.

[sidslotm]

Hi

I was wondering just how accurate uboat diving could have been. I know the pressure gauges would have been calibrated as the valves where etc, but I wonder if that is the problem, maybe uboat diving was achieved more by the seat of your pants stuff.

How accurate would the +/- uboat depth itself been beyond the 90 meter mark. Say to reach 150 meters quickly from the surface, how long would it have taken to trim the boat to that depth, would the boat have over dived the required 150 meter depth and then power on to get upto 150 meters, Im thinking about the initial water intake to submerge a boat and how they attained the correct quantites of water to achieve a depth of 150 meters quickly. It seems to me that a boat had to power through the water at any depth else it sank, the deeper it went the hander the balance between displacement and silent speed

Today with digital flow meters that can accurately measure water quanties and valves that are instant air controlled devices, I can understand how a boat can hover or get to a particular depth very very quickly, even at critical depths. The Uboat would not have enjoyed this technology and accurate diving depth would have still been critical hense to 90 meter limit on the depth gauge. When designing the VII/41 they had trouble with the boats displacement of extra weight due to hull thickness, this forced the designers to find ways of reducing the boats weight with internal savings, something critical here.

I wonder if the programmers where trying to reflect a more realistic diving experiance rather than the spot on diving of SH3/4. Ok I know it's note right as is and I hope you get it right, but spot on, mmmmm.

thanks for your effort:up: sid

[Vanilla]

... It seems to me that a boat had to power through the water at any depth else it sank, the deeper it went the hander the balance between displacement and silent speed
...

They easily pumped water in and out of diving and other tanks while submerged to achieve neutral buoyancy and longtitudinal stability. Otherwise how would you control even slight flooding? And think of all excess power, battery capacity and noise you would need if you could not control your buoyancy to precise level. Even if you don't have a perfectly calibrated valve you could achieve desired buoyancy by trial and error.

AFAIK they would normally keep slightly positive buoyancy, so under low RPMs the boat would slowly float to the surface - directly opposite of what we see in the game.

[sidslotm]

They easily pumped water in and out of diving and other tanks while submerged to achieve neutral buoyancy and longtitudinal stability. Otherwise how would you control even slight flooding? And think of all excess power, battery capacity and noise you would need if you could not control your buoyancy to precise level. Even if you don't have a perfectly calibrated valve you could achieve desired buoyancy by trial and error.


Yes I recon thats correct, I was thinking about the time it took to trim the boat after diving beyond the 90 meter recommended depth. Beyond 90 meters in 1930s the engineers manual for diving a boat would be void surely. I read recently they lost a uboat because someone flushed the toilet incorrectly while submergered.

I just see the equation of (time ( water quantity ( water pressure ( speed of boat )))), being harder to control at 150 meters than previous versions of silent hunter sugested.

sid

[andycaccia]

Surely depth control needed a lot of care and tuning on such submarines, but a neutral buoyancy (more or less) could be obtained, that's for sure. And when you are almost neutral it's easy to keep the desired depth with speed and diving planes.

The game has a bug. There is no doubt about that.

[Vanilla]

Just checked the fleet boat manual and some other sources, if I get it right, it is even easier - the boat was trimmed to neutral buoyancy before the actual dive, that is before the boat even was in the combat zone, during a test-dive. So when you are on the surface you have main ballast tanks empty and have positive buoyancy. When you need to dive you just flood your MBTs and with them flooded you have pre-trimmed neutral buoyancy so you can simply use dive-planes to easily and precisely control your depth, fine-trimming when needed. If it really was an emergency you could flood your negative tanks so the boot would get negative buoyancy and sink, but those were blown empty at depth of 9-11m already.

And if neutral bouyancy was pre-trimmed then there would be no problem with depth control through full diving range at all times.

[eon850aye]

@ andycaccia,

so things are looking up for the Type VIIb with regards to this rail look and keeping depth at slow speed.
It's not perfect, nothing ever is, but its getting there.
The boat has a nice pitch and roll on the surface now, and will maintain depth down to 200m. Unfortunately it is alittle shallow down to approx 110-112m, but only between 0.5-1m.

Last test results; speed at 2 knots
Depth Ordered.....Depth Achieved.....Depth Maintained
Periscope(12m)...........12m....................ye s
.....50m...................49.5m.................. .yes
.....88m....................87m................... .yes
....100m....................99m................... yes
....111m...................110m................... yes
....115m...................115m................... yes
....125m...................125m................... yes
....137m...................137m................... yes
....163m...................163m................... yes
....182m...................182m................... yes
....200m..................200.2m.................. yes

At 200m, when motors were switched off, you got that slow sinking as you mentioned before, but power on again and it stops and levels out.

So far I'm pleased with the results.

It still needs alittle fine tuning, and Im waiting to hear back from TheDarkWraith about something, but I will let you know as soon as I have something more solid for you to look at :yeah:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Looks excellent, this is a really needed fix. Keep up the good work (and be more aggressive too). Thanks. :salute:

[eon850aye]

:timeout: Strange things afoot.
Started SH5 up, and without changing anything, ran tests again and came up with a totally different set of results :damn:
Back to the drawing board...

[sidslotm]

And if neutral bouyancy was pre-trimmed then there would be no problem with depth control through full diving range at all times.


I recon this is right and I'm clearer about this now thanks. :up:

I just got given a brand new type VIIc and it holds depth perfectly, it's all beyond me, I'm heading for the captains bunk :zzz: thanks


sid

[andycaccia]

:timeout: Strange things afoot.
Started SH5 up, and without changing anything, ran tests again and came up with a totally different set of results :damn:
Back to the drawing board...


Don't worry!:sunny: Sometimes the game *******s itself. Just try again.:up:
Can you give a fast briefing on what you've changed/modded? Just to have an Idea...
Thanks!

[andycaccia]

Any news? Hellooo???

This thread seems dead..:06:

[schnorchel]

I recon this is right and I'm clearer about this now thanks. :up:

I just got given a brand new type VIIc and it holds depth perfectly, it's all beyond me, I'm heading for the captains bunk :zzz: thanks


sid
Can you hold the depth well deeper than 180m at 1knot with UHSv1.4? I doubt.

[schnorchel]

I am really frustrated!. even a such basical function can not work in SH5. from SH3 to SH5 same issue. they just add some eyes candy and re-package it then sell out. I swear no more SH seires from UBI in my life. :down:

[andycaccia]

I am really frustrated!. even a such basical function can not work in SH5. from SH3 to SH5 same issue. they just add some eyes candy and re-package it then sell out. I swear no more SH seires from UBI in my life. :down:

If you use my fix you can...

[sidslotm]

:cool:Can you hold the depth well deeper than 180m at 1knot with UHSv1.4? I doubt.

Yeah your right, the boat does start a gradual decent. I wonder if this is programming genius or glitch.

[Fearless]

I just live with it.

I've UHSv1.4 installed before any of TDW's mods and when I select a depth, the Uboat never gets to the depth I've selected if I run at slow speed nor will it maintain a requested depth at slow speed. The only way out of it is to crank up the speed but that costs dearly on battery life.

[schnorchel]

Honestly I can not live with it. I have to put this semi-complete game to the rack till such annoying issue was fixed. Maybe someone needs to persuade Oleg to develop an il2 standard Uboat simulation.:rotfl2:

[sidslotm]

I'm still troubled by this issue of depth control, I mean could a uboat hover motionless for several hours, mine can.:o

[schnorchel]

I'm still troubled by this issue of depth control, I mean could a uboat hover motionless for several hours, mine can.:o

sidslotm, Do you mind of sharing your mod list and your sub's .sim file?:salute:

[sidslotm]

Hi

Sobers reaistic hydrophone
new start- VIIb
lite campaign
Enviroment 3.7
Torpedo speed abilite fix for TDC

my mods list for SH5, I have tried others but these are the one I stick with.

I can see the depth control issue vexes the gamers mindset.

[sidslotm]

Surely depth control needed a lot of care and tuning on such submarines, but a neutral buoyancy (more or less) could be obtained, that's for sure. And when you are almost neutral it's easy to keep the desired depth with speed and diving planes.

The game has a bug. There is no doubt about that


I recon this must be right what your saying, I suppose I struggle with the notion that this bug was not detected before release and the fact it released onto the market knowingly, well. :down:

But I would say this to andy and all modders, be careful with perfection, the idea of some thing going wrong when the machine is pushed to the limit has an appeal of it's own and gives flavour to lifes struggles. Metals modulas of elesticity at 200+ meters in a 1930s built submarine defies my understanding of human courage, when I think of the young men who decended down to these the depths it reminds me of my own reckless youth of racing my Norton at 110 mph without a crash helmet, how young we were then. :yep:


sid

[milky]

Was depth control fixed? Im tired of this stupid depth thing

[schnorchel]

No:down:. I won't touch this game untill it is fixed. But I doubt it could be :nope:

[SashaKA001]

place after all the mods
and you will be happy:woot::woot::woot:

7a and 7b keep the depth of

Corrected depth (http://www.mediafire.com/?mx6co16vxntda5p)

[andycaccia]

No:down:. I won't touch this game untill it is fixed. But I doubt it could be :nope:

I'm afraid, my friend, that a true "fix" will never come. If you can not tolerate the sinking affect anymore, try whith my fix. It has some side effects (fast diving and strong "submarine on rails" effect) but they will keep depth almost perfectly. This is all I can do:).

[THE_MASK]

maybe this will help you all figure it out (also tells you what put on water does):

HydroCtrl.cpp.The object's front-rear drag coef...FR..The object's up-down drag coef..UD..The object's left-right drag coef...LR..The object's drag (water resistance) coefs [F=C*v^2]....The object's draught [m]. If 0, then the geometric bounding box height is taken.....draught.....The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then it is automaticaly computed.....displacement....The object's submerged parameters...Submerged.......The object's draught [m]. If 0, then it is taken from the object's global position......The object's displacement [Tons]. If 0 then the object's mass is taken..The object's surfaced parameters....Surfaced....Put the hydro object on the water at the surfaced draught...bool....put_on_water........Gravity center horizontal position [>0]. 1=FRONT, 0.5=MIDDLE, 0=REAR....fr_ratio........Gravity center height from the object's bottom [m]. If 0, then the half of geometric bounding box is taken..gc_height...The object's mass [Tons]. If 0, then the object's surfaced displacement is taken....mass....Display the object's submerged draught..SD..Display the object's gravity center.....GC..Display the object's parameters.....params..Debug display settings..Debug...Hydro controller: controlls an object that can float....obj_Hydro...hullCould we have 2 sets of parameters . 1 for if is surfaced and 1 for if is submerged .