GM's 'Volt'...

[SteamWake]

A bit pricey I would say... good luck with that GM

The long-anticipated Chevrolet Volt, General Motors' electric car, will cost $41,000, the company announced Tuesday, leaving consumers to decide whether its environmental appeal is worth a price far above that of similarly sized conventional autos.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/27/AR2010072705834_pf.html

[ETR3(SS)]

If I could sum up GM in one word it would be, Clueless. Maybe they should get together with Toyota. Toyota could show them how to make a good inexpensive car and GM could show them how to make a gas pedal that doesn't get a mind of it's own. :rotfl2:

[nikimcbee]

A bit pricey I would say... good luck with that GM



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/27/AR2010072705834_pf.html

Your welcome UAW:shifty:

[krashkart]

At $41,000 does it classify as a luxury car or a novelty? :shifty:

[Weiss Pinguin]

Well at least it's not as buttugly as the Prius ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/2011_Chevrolet_Volt_2_--_04-21-2010.jpg/800px-2011_Chevrolet_Volt_2_--_04-21-2010.jpg

[SteamWake]

Anyone catch the range on this thing?

ITs a whopping 40 miles ! :-?

I dont know how the whole generator thing works but I dont belive it is like a hybrid where it 'switches' to internal combustion engine.

40 miles... That would get me to work and halfway home.

Wonder how long you have to charge to get that 40 miles.

Oh and another thing. I have this same concearn with hybrids. If god forbid you get in an accident in this thing and somehow short out the batterys it could cause a rather large explosion with extremly toxic smome.

Then what do we do with the heavy metals once the batterys will no longer hold a charge?

[WarlordATF]

What they don't want to tell you is that the disposal of the batteries from these hybrids does just as much if not more damage to the enviroment than fossil fuels. These Batteries have to be replaced fairly on a fairly regular basis and the used ones don't just vanish. I guess it makes the clueless feel good, but the reality is a different story.

[Tchocky]

Anyone catch the range on this thing?

ITs a whopping 40 miles ! :-?

I dont know how the whole generator thing works but I dont belive it is like a hybrid where it 'switches' to internal combustion engine.

40 miles... That would get me to work and halfway home.

Wonder how long you have to charge to get that 40 miles.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/27/how-charging-of-the-battery-works-in-the-chevy-volt/


The battery is recharged by the engine, but only as little as possible. The point is to avoid petroleum use.
Here’s how it works.
For the first 40 miles, the fully charged battery (80% state of charge) powers the electric motor. Regenerative braking can help recharge the battery to a certain extent.
When the vehicle drives past 40 miles, the battery reaches a 30% or so state of charge. So called “the customer depletion point”, preventing the battery from going below that sustains the batteries longevity. Lithium-ion cells don’t survive as long when they are deep discharged, and GM has the goal of 10 years/150,000 miles.
At the customer depletion point the combustion engine fires up and operates at one of several optimized fixed RPMs. The engine turns the generator, producing electricity.

[Platapus]

I like the technology of the volt. I would just feel a lot more confident in it if it were not a GM car. :nope:

40 miles will get me to and from work and for a commuter car that will work out well. And, as already posted, you can go a lot further when the gas - electric series kicks in.

I wonder how this will sell compared to the Nisan Leaf which is a different technology.

I am kinda glad this technology is coming out in consumer cars. It is only going to get better.

I am still waiting for a nice diesel - electric series comes out. Peugeot 307 had it and I hear that Peugeot is considering marketing in the US again. :up:

[yubba]

The ev 1 built in the 90s got 150 miles on a charge and they crushed it. EV 1 the car featured in who killed the electric car. What a joke

[breadcatcher101]

Forty miles at the most. If you drive fast, use the a/c, lights, anything else it is less. Also depends on the temperture.

As to charge, 10 hours.

[mookiemookie]

I'd go with a Tesla :cool:

http://earth2tech.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/lol-oil-medium.jpg?w=472&h=291

[ETR3(SS)]

That license plate is epic. :haha:

[GoldenRivet]

This is why we shouldnt trust one of the dinosaur auto companies to build the new cutting edge environmentally friendly vehicles.

they have a cute little box that they are used to thinking well inside of.

Taxpayer money is used to socialize GM and this "volt" is the turd they finally manage to squat down and push out? :06:

give me an effin break.

there are independent, small car companies out there who are building cars with 4 times the battery range of that piece of crap... Im just at a loss for words.

why was the money not invested into these companies?

just backwards washington DC thinking is all it was.

Forty miles at the most. If you drive fast, use the a/c, lights, anything else it is less. Also depends on the temperture.

As to charge, 10 hours.


so lets see... if you have a 30 mile commute, and if you work some nights until 9pm like me, get home around 9:30 or 10:00 and have to turn around for a 6am departure, what then? leave out the next morning on 7 hours charging - maybe 8... and run dead within 10 miles of work?

[Task Force]

Ya know, I dont like these eletric cars... just think when they become more popular!

That phrase would no longer be Stop, look and listen! Just Stop, look, and pray a crazy driver dosent blast around the Corner!

I dont know, If I had my choice between one of those, and a normal car with a gasoline/petrol engine... ill take the after choice.

But just Think! If this thing catches on a road trip would never be the same.

[mookiemookie]

Taxpayer money is used to socialize GM and this "volt" is the turd they finally manage to squat down and push out? :06:

give me an effin break.


Another wonderful thing you can (in part) thank the Bush administration for. Their parting shot to taxpayers.

[TLAM Strike]

That phrase would no longer be Stop, look and listen! Just Stop, look, and pray a crazy driver dosent blast around the Corner!
Easy fix remember the sirens the Germans mounted on the Stuka? :up:

[Task Force]

Easy fix remember the sirens the Germans mounted on the Stuka? :up:

I would put one of those on it! Just think of turning it on in traffic! :DL

Or maby a Ships horn. YA Take that you semis!

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Many MANY things worry me about cars like this.

In a wreck, many municipalities REFUSE to cut the car apart to get you out in the event of an accident. They are worried about getting electrocuted.

As a Service manager/car tech, I dread trying to educate people in the care and maintenance of them. Instead of a mileage req on oil changes, you will have an hour spec. Mild hybrids are already a pain to work on. There are whole LISTS of do and don't associated with them.

That battery is going to consume a lot of energy just MAINTAINING itself. Too hot or cold and it can be damaged. That means the environmental controls have to be one ALWAYS. The car will be monitoring itself and adjusting to keep itself within a narrow temp band. This means using power to heat or cool itself.

I am also worried about the range limits. What happens when you get to the low limit of charge and the computer calls for the generator to start and it DOESN'T. Do you suddenly STOP (well, coast down).. right now, right here cause you MIGHT hurt the battery?

Also, the engine will NOT charge the battery, Once it is at the low limit, the battery is isolated and the generator does all the work. If is like losing a third of the power according to the test drives. GM has admitted that this is a problem and that later they are going to look at the possibility of using the generator to run the car AND recharge the battery. But this is in 2 or 3 generations down the road developmentally. I wonder how long till some enterprising hacker fixed that oversight in the software.

[GoldenRivet]

Another wonderful thing you can (in part) thank the Bush administration for. Their parting shot to taxpayers.

correct.

Any administration/political party and congress that writes the check - i blame.

So far that has been two fools in the white house that have done so.

[Zachstar]

Your welcome UAW:shifty:

What does Union have to do with car tech? Union has no say in design.

Of course never miss a beat to express anti-union hate tho for some here.

[Zachstar]

As for the volt it is rather crap. GM is far too worried about a good volt competing with its petrol lines. If I were GM I would go all in on electric. Tho I am not so I will buy a Ford instead.

As for charge time issues. That has NOTHING to do with the car or the battery. Most home lines can only push out a few kilowatts safely. Also the faster you want to charge the much more complex and costly the power converter costs. My PCs Power supply is 700W and it cost me a good 60USD. .7 Kilowatts...

What is not being mentioned here tho is that 40 miles you get is less than a dollar power bill. Way less in many areas. Also when an engine is "designed" for a fixed RPM its efficiency skyrockets. Most road engines these days are supposed to hit best RPM at normal conditions at 50 MPH That is why there is two MPG ratings.

Now in my opinion take the ICE out completely slash 10-20 thousand on price and let it go 60-80 miles on a single charge. That fits city dwellers VERY well.

[mookiemookie]

correct.

Any administration/political party and congress that writes the check - i blame.

So far that has been two fools in the white house that have done so.

Indeed. One of the major things I fault Obama for - continuing many of the same crappy decisions of his predecessor.

[SteamWake]

Ah its time to blame bush again.

I'm fairly sure that Bush did not intend to take over the company but thats actually fodder for another topic.


Now that the United Auto Workers will likely own big stakes of General Motors and Chrysler (possibly 39% of GM and 55% of the latter) some very thorny questions arise. How will management work with some degree of union ownership?

First, let’s look at a few facts. The UAW won’t directly own equity stakes in the car companies. The shares will be owned by a Voluntary Employee Benefits Trust, or VEBA, which invests cash and manages a portfolio to pay union healthcare benefits.

When all of the legal proceedings are done, which should be next year, the VEBA trusts will have a board of trustees who could get representation on the boards of the companies.


http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/05/chrysler_gm_and_union_ownership.html

[nikimcbee]

What does Union have to do with car tech? Union has no say in design.

Of course never miss a beat to express anti-union hate tho for some here.

:haha: nope.
I wonder how much the car would cost w/o the union?

[UnderseaLcpl]

What does Union have to do with car tech? Union has no say in design.

No, but they have a say in labor and labor costs, which directly affects the quality of products produced. Their lobbies also have a big effect on domestic production and international trade policy, and are usually focused upon insuring their jobs at the cost of everyone else.

Of course never miss a beat to express anti-union hate tho for some here.
Glad you like unions so much. Remind me to thank you for your blind support next time I pick up my ridiculous paycheck that comes directly from your wallet in the form of artificially inflated bulk goods costs.

[Platapus]

T
so lets see... if you have a 30 mile commute, and if you work some nights until 9pm like me, get home around 9:30 or 10:00 and have to turn around for a 6am departure, what then? leave out the next morning on 7 hours charging - maybe 8... and run dead within 10 miles of work?

For a person who seems to be bad-mouthing the volt, you know very little about it. The Chevy volt is a gas electric car. You can drive 40 miles solely on the electric battery. After that, the gas engine kicks in and you can drive about 300 miles more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

A little more research on your part will spare you this embarrassment in the future. :yep:

[GoldenRivet]

For a person who seems to be bad-mouthing the volt, you know very little about it. The Chevy volt is a gas electric car. You can drive 40 miles solely on the electric battery. After that, the gas engine kicks in and you can drive about 300 miles more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

A little more research on your part will spare you this embarrassment in the future. :yep:

Im not badmouthing it outright.

Im badmouthing it in comparison to specific all-electric cars with electric motor ranges of approximately 120+ miles @ highway speed.

the heads at GM want to push this volt as some new, cutting edge, forward thinking car that will reduce our dependency on oil...

its simply not going to do that... not substantially.

[yubba]

We can t get a brake from Bushanomics to Obamanomics they built the Volt purposely substandard, so that no one would want it , too make big oil happy,just think what kind of car the EV 1 would be now after a decade of improvements . Big oil crushed the EV 1 because it was a threat to their profits and in their greed raised gas prices that also crush the auto industry, and everything else, if we don t get this oil monkey off our backs it will be the end of us all .So when is our government going too addopt some kind of energy policy instead of taking bribes from big oil lobbist. Heck I m workin on building a HHO Generator let u guys know how that works out . Look at you tube HHO Generator.

[ETR3(SS)]

So when is our government going too adopt some kind of energy policy instead of taking bribes from big oil lobbyist.When all the oil dries up and there's no more oil companies.:know:

[mookiemookie]

Unfortunately, big oil has their claws into us and it will take some serious pain and sacrifice to wean ourselves off of it. And I don't think this country has it in us. Craven and petty politicians will never take the first step to alternative energy.

For good or for ill, we remain whores to the oil industry. And most likely always will.

[TLAM Strike]

For good or for ill, we remain whores to the oil industry. And most likely always will. Until we find a cheaper or more abundant source of energy. :hmmm:

[yubba]

So why do we need to go to the moon to find water to make fuel ? ymmmmmmmmm

[TLAM Strike]

So why do we need to go to the moon to find water to make fuel ? ymmmmmmmmm

I know this was going to come back and bite me in the ass again. I wrote a half page on this two seconds ago on all of this and just lost it and I am really really pissed (as in angry to our British friends) right now. I am not going to write it again, but basically it is this: There is Silica on the moon. Silica can be used to make solar panels. There is water there to generate power until solar panels are built and to fuel ships to get people to and from.

Now the moon has no atmosphere (basically) so it gets massive amounts of sunlight meaning solar panels work great. Lasers can be used to transmit power back to the Earth (we do it all the time the other way around much to the ignorance of Apollo Program Denyer).

The Moon (Luna) = Massive Solar Power Station.

Now if you will excuse me I'm going out side to go look at Neptune and maybe calm down.

[yubba]

and to think of all the trouble , red tape, demonstrations,and well you get the picture to put up a couple of windmills here on earth ,thought we had sand here, what we also have the wrong kind of water here too.

[TLAM Strike]

and to think of all the trouble , red tape, demonstrations,and well you get the picture to put up a couple of windmills here on earth ,thought we had sand here, what we also have the wrong kind of water here too.

No we have the wrong kind of sunlight. Our atmosphere blocks 30% of the sunlight we receive from reaching the Earth's surface. The atmosphere absorbs about 20% give or take. In other words a little over half the sunlight heading in our direction reaches the Earth's surface.

So a solar panel put just a mile strait up (in to space) generates 50% greater power. Ever see a house with a solar panel have its meter spin backwards?

Why build them on the Moon? Because the ingredients are there already and its easier to put them in Earth orbit from there! Just have to send a factory. Whats is even better than a factory? A robot factory that just builds them and sets them up all day long until the moon is covered with them.

Oh and solar panels last for about 40 years and are cheap to maintain.

[Zachstar]

I would not consider the water we have "Wrong" considering the other water is quite poisonous after a normal day's intake.

Beaming power from the moon is scifi It is FAR cheaper to do it from Geosync orbit where you have one transmitter and one receiving point. It is widely believed it will be one of the next "Big Rushes" From 2030 onwards due to likely development of launcher technology.

To the guy doing the HHO generator. Your car is a pre computer Carburetor version right? Any card with an oxygen sensor and computer will consider how "Clean" the output is an error and the correction will likely give you even less gas mileage than where you started. Just wanted to make sure you knew that because many "OMGzors! HHO is teh fake because my 2009 Civic now suXors with less gas miliage!" Fools really discredit the concept of water vapor injection to increase octane paired with hydrogen injection to promote complete combustion.

[SteamWake]

In an attempt to return to the topic.......



Has anyone actually seen a performance envelop for this car?

What is its top speed? What is its top speed with the battery depleted?

What is considered a 'cruising' speed? What is the acceleration when the battery is depleted.

I get the feeling that this car will be hugging the right hand lane if you get my meaning.

[AVGWarhawk]

Does it matter? What is this electric car or any electric car doing for us/planet anyway? Is the electric free of polluting the air? Well, no! Still burning fossil fuels (coal) to generate the electricity. Use nuclear? Sure, but what about spent rods/fuel? Send it underground? Water to generate electricity? Sure! Sounds great until the tree huggers show up concerned of the enviromental impact of the dam that will be created to generate the electricity. Is electric truly the way to go?

[GoldenRivet]

In an attempt to return to the topic.......



Has anyone actually seen a performance envelop for this car?

What is its top speed? What is its top speed with the battery depleted?

What is considered a 'cruising' speed? What is the acceleration when the battery is depleted.

I get the feeling that this car will be hugging the right hand lane if you get my meaning.

I would imagine it would be similar to other gas electric hybrids.

It looks like a heavy car IMHO though i dont know what the curb weight is, i would imagine it would be similar to any other small to mid sized sedan based on looks alone.

Unfortunately, i dont think the day will come where there will be no use for oil. It is a necessity, and probably will be for another 50+ years.

Too many applications rely heavily on oil for fuel and lubrication. Even with electric vehicles, parts will be required to be lubricated and greased, some oil production will be required for this to take place.

one other thing nobody has mentioned is that oil will always be expensive no matter the demand.

here is what i hypothesize.

As demand decreases in the future due to the implementation of electric cars, solar power etc etc the number of producers of oil will also diminish.

this means that as the demand decreases, so will the price, quite steadily. Yet as demand continues its down trend... production will be forced to decrease. this raises the possibility that so few companies will be in the oil production and refining business... it will possibly become a "specialty" of sorts. thus increasing the price.

fortunately, as reliance on oil is also deeply reduced... it will be a cost we can afford as moving parts on vehicles aside from the engine require infrequent lubrication and fluid changes.

This is why i rip on cars like the volt. Though such hybrid electric vehicles are a step in the right direction, it would seem that the step is a little miscalculated or misguided.

Hybrid electric vehicles do extend fuel efficiency of a vehicle, but by how much? what is the life span of an electric or electric hybrid car? By what means do we dispose of the batteries when they are depleted or no longer any good? how much does that cost?

One thing the world needs to do is get on the same page with regards to oil dependency.

do we want to be completely oil free?

do we want to reduce oil consumption by 20%? 50%? or even 75%?

how much burden do we want to place on the average joe? (because i promise, if its going to cost Joe 2 years worth of income in taxes alone just to make the nation oil free... he probably wont go for that plan)

additionally, many nations around the world are not even remotely in a position to abandon oil and "upgrade" to another energy source... and those nations which produce oil wont have any incentive to back changes.

the higher that percentage of reduction goes and the more changes we make to oil dependency etc, the less viable hybrid vehicles become because they still use fossil fuels, they still use internal combustion engines, some of which require almost a gallon and a half of oil for engine lubrication alone, not to mention the oil used on fuel production.

I have said it before and i'll say it again... we need a 10-20 year plan for the implementation of readily available, stylish, desirable and useful all electric vehicles. tax incentives for those who purchase them. Rebates for the recycling of fossil fuel burning vehicles.

if we want to take steps to independence from oil... we need to take aggressive yet calculated steps, and i maintain that hybrids are just a temporary fix to high summer fuel prices and do not IMHO address the long term financial and environemental problems posed by oil dependency.

[SteamWake]

I would imagine it would be similar to other gas electric hybrids.

I dont think so. Typical hybrids the internal combustion engine is directly coupled to the drive. In the vold it is a generator that is coupled to an electric motor. Any 'excess' is diverted to the batterys for charging.

Big difference. Electric motors can draw up to and over 600% of their 'normal' current when being started. That huge inrush current can bring a generator to its knees.

But I was wondering if the performance data is available I would like to see it.

You know I would even consider buying one of these things if they could make it competitively priced... a 7.5 thousand tax break 'incintive' aint going to do it for me I am afraid.

[The Third Man]

Although @$41,000 I consider it too expensive I might consider a vehicle with a switch which allows me to run on gasoline until I run out and then go to the battery so I can find a gas station.

Just a thought.

[yubba]

take a peek at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9O_jSz4Je8&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWDZ0RGWBUg

[TLAM Strike]

how much burden do we want to place on the average joe? (because i promise, if its going to cost Joe 2 years worth of income in taxes alone just to make the nation oil free... he probably wont go for that plan) I'm going to say a dirty word here: Deficit Spending. Because.........

additionally, many nations around the world are not even remotely in a position to abandon oil and "upgrade" to another energy source... and those nations which produce oil wont have any incentive to back changes. If we suddonly produce massive amounts of an alternative source of energy we are in a position to sell that energy at lower prices than the oil producing nations sell their product to developing nations. Now we are the leader in the market and we are exporting rather than import our energy source then we slowly pay off the debit we accumulated.

In other words we take a hit in the wallet now to drive everyone else out of the market. Then pick up the pieces.

[mookiemookie]

The oil companies will fight any attempt to change, kicking and screaming. Their very existence is threatened by attempts to wean ourselves off of oil. They will throw every last dollar they have into lobbying if it means not just their continued existence, but their continued dominance and market position in energy industry. Do you think they'll stand idly by as they're made obsolete? Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

[TLAM Strike]

The oil companies will fight any attempt to change, kicking and screaming. Their very existence is threatened by attempts to wean ourselves off of oil. They will throw every last dollar they have into lobbying if it means not just their continued existence, but their continued dominance and market position in energy industry. Do you think they'll stand idly by as they're made obsolete? Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

Thanks to BP that may change. Those who accept donations from Big Oil may find them selves voted out now. :hmmm:

[The Third Man]

If it weren't for British Petroleum this well would still be flowing oil. Never forget that.

[yubba]

Here's the choice we could build veicles that run on alternative fuels and develope alternative fuels ,or continue giving billion's of dollars to energy providers that hate us. What has gone on about energy here in the states is a joke . The Volt is a joke, US energy policy is a joke, 100 dollars a barrel for oil will be a joke, Cap en Trade is a joke. Only way to turn around the economic down turn is to have cheap clean energy , so the cosumer has more money to spend on other goods. So when gas goes over 5 dollars a gallon I wonder what a can of peas will cost.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

Except for an increase in the price of oil.:DL And I don't mean an artificial increase through legislation, either, I mean a nice, natural market-based increase. Or spike. Whatever.

You clearly have a distaste for Big Oil, and I can't say I blame you. Like any entity with enough power, they have a tendency to overreach and do less-than-reputable things. However, the same insatiability for profits will drive them to continue providing some kind of petroleum substitute or alternative long after the oil is gone. TBH, I think they already have one, but since drilling is cheaper they just use that.

If it were up to me, I'd take the leash off of Big Oil and just let them go to town. No taxes, other than an effluent tax, no trade restrictions, no quotas, no embargoes, no drilling restrictions on land they own. However, as long as I'm pretending that I have such fiat power, I'd also curb legislative power across the board to the point of near-impotence that would require a supermajority for any minor legislative or regulatory powers left not already set in stone. Who ya' gonaa lobby now A-holes? I guess you'll have to provide a good or service at an agreeable price.

Granted, there will be places where they'll charge whatever the market will bear, but I don't see that as a problem. IMO, many people are too quick to see themselves as victims of a power far greater than themselves, or worse, see themselves as entitled to a share of that power and wealth, and too many ambitious politicians are too quick to take advantage of that. For some reason, people tend to forget that they also have power as consumers and employees and informed voters. I'm not afraid of Big Oil. Big Oil is my, for lack of a better word, biatch. Big Oil is my employer's biatch. They will give us oil at a reasonable cost or we'll simply take our business elsewhere. Failing that, we'll just use something else, or we'll make our own oil, or we'll cut back on our usage. We may even organize to bring prices down. Monopsony is monpoly's more powerful twin.

[Zachstar]

Except when OPEC and other cartels decide to make you their Biach instead.

But the "Watercar" nonsense isnt helping people get off oil. HHO as a way to make an engine more efficient is sane but running a car on water is not. I dont know how many times I have seen these crazy "Vacuum energy generators" Or other bullcrap but they have one thing in common. They usually have a big youtube video or news item and promptly vanish. Often with investor money.

The only one I follow these days is Blacklight energy. Which sticks around and posts updates which give atleast some entertainment and discussion value.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Except when OPEC and other cartels decide to make you their Biach instead.
I'm almost at a loss to describe how incorrect this statement is.

You remind me of me when I was a lot younger, Zach. I was all over this energy-crisis, fossil-fuel, foreign-oil, doomsday BS. It took me a long time to realize that I'd been had. As with most scares, there really wasn't much of a threat at all, just people with an agenda who needed people to be scared.

I don't think I can blame you for seeing things the way you do. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that you learned a lot of the same things in public school that I did in the arena of environmental science and what they call somehow call "economics" with a straight face. I did science projects comparing the efficiency of various alternative energy sources, and wrote essay after essay on alternative energy policy for various courses. It wasn't until after I got out of high school that I realized that most of what I'd been taught in those areas was pure bunk.

Public schools, being the unionized and publicly-funded institutions that they are, are extremely vulnerable to both political currents and people who find it acceptable to work in publicly-funded and unionized intstitutions. This is why our schools are so awful despite the hundreds of billions of dollars we throw at them. What is supposed to be a place of learning quickly becomes a vector for the ideals of people who have no interest in how anything works beyond their own self-interest and whatever pandering politicians peddle to them. This is how we end up with a mandatory public institution that tells us we're running out of energy or that the earth is dying. Most of the time, there's some kind of other agenda behind this crap, and it's usually some kind of anti-corporate message based on people wanting free stuff. The funny thing is that these same people are foolish enough to believe that the government is so magnanimous or virtuous to give them what they want despite the fact that it's made up of people who are just as bad as any greedy CEO, but with fiat power. That's how we end up with asshead politicians and laws that nobody has been happy with, ever. But I digress.

The point is that what you have been taught is wrong. OPEC cannot bend us over the barrel, so to speak, because it needs us to buy their oil. We also have untapped reserves of our own. We have a virtual monopsony on oil consumption. If a producer loses the US market, they're sunk. Even with China on the rise, and India making a pathetic socialist attempt to keep up, no producer can afford to lose the US market. To make matters worse for them, they're inextricably intertwined with US-based shipping and refining firms.

If we were smart, we'd completely eradicate all taxes and tariffs on the oil business, thus guaranteeing that our position as not only the largest market but the most profitable one, barrel for barrel, and force OPEC into meeting our demands by sheer virtue of market force. We might even become an exporter in our own right by importing foreign oil for cracking before it is shipped elsewhere. But of course, we won't do that because we have too many Marxist bastards with votes who want free stuff gumming up the works.

I gather that alternative energy is a passion of yours, and that's ok. We need people like you to innovate and exert pressure on domestic industry for energy alternatives. Just have a care, especially when considering state funding. You may well end up charging off on some crusade to inadvertently further the interests of a bunch of lazy jerks.

[Zachstar]

First take your union busting bull and take a hike.

Second you don't know me. I am not you when you were young I am educated enough to know what is what.

Third eradicate oil taxes? are you nuts?

Edit: 4th you seem to be on a crusade against "Lazy Jerks" are you one of these republicans that thinks of little more about how some welfare user is stealing your two cents you throw into the US treasury?

[UnderseaLcpl]

First take your union busting bull and take a hike.
As you wish. Thank goodness there are people of similar opinion to give my union power to extort higher wages out of them. It's almost funny how easy it is. I can even come on a largely conservative forum and still find people who will defend unions for no apparent reason, even though it costs them.

Before I take my union-busting bull on a hike to the bank, which doesn't open till' 9, please allow me to address the rest of your points.


Second you don't know me. I am not you when you were young I am educated enough to know what is what.
And you don't know me, so you can't really say that you're not me when I was young, either, can you? Stop. Think about that for a minute. Kind of makes you wonder whether or not you're educated enough to know what is what, doesn't it?

That said, you may be right. Maybe you're not like me when I was younger, but you sure sound like it. I don't say that to make you feel stupid or belittle you, I just want you to think about the position you hold, and why you hold it.

Third eradicate oil taxes? are you nuts?
No, I'm not nuts, but you think I am because such an attitude seems completelky counterintuitive to you. Eliminate oil taxes!? What kind of sense does that make? That's revenue that could be going towards initiatives that would benefit society in whatever way you actually believe that a government agency whose legitimacy and primary motive for existence has absolutely nothing to do with you or any beliefs you hold other than lip-service could effect.

Perhaps you have noticed the lack of progress that has been made in harnessing tremendous oil revenues for any kind of productive purpose. I don't even have to look them up to know that they were in the tens of billions last fiscal quarter alone. Gee, I wonder why that is. Could it be that idiots like me who are identified as opposition are somehow impeding the productive use of that revenue? Maybe we're directing it into the pockets of CEOs or wars because we're such conservative idiots. Oh my, better vote to increase the power of the state for our own good then, huh? Oh wait, that's never worked. That money often goes to collectivized interests like my union, which is just as greedy and self-serving as any Wall-Street fat cat, that use the revenue to advance one purpose only; their agendas and paychecks. Half the time it goes to rich people who lobby for it because people like you inadvertently allow them to do that through your misplaced faith in the government. Are you seeing how this all works, yet?

Industry, even the oil industry, drives progress when you allow it to do so. I don't have the space to explain why this is so, but perhaps you can read The Wealth of Nations or just listen to a few modern economists.

Edit: 4th you seem to be on a crusade against "Lazy Jerks" are you one of these republicans that thinks of little more about how some welfare user is stealing your two cents you throw into the US treasury?
No, and actually, there are no Republicans like that. Republicans didn't become Republicans by complaining about taxes. For the most part, they got that way by complaining about social issues. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Republicans any more than I like Democrats. To me, they are both part of the same party, with only marginal differences.

I am not a Republican, and my problem is not with the " two cents" that some welfare user gets out of my paycheck, though I hate those guys, too. My problem is with interests that co-opt people like you to establish a market via legislative force where one would not otherwise be.