Promotions

[ijnfleetadmiral]

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game! :yeah:

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

[Sgt_Raa]

im just gonna say welcome to the pack :salute:... idk the answer 2 ur question sorry

[frau kaleun]

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game! :yeah:

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

So far I've made it to Kapitänleutnant, I don't know how much higher up it's possible to go.

I think with SH3 Commander it's possible to promote an enlisted man into the officers' ranks - at least I'm assuming that the game recognizes it, the option appears to be there IIRC.

Within the game itself I don't think it's possible to promote any enlisted man into a commisioned officer's rank, and I assume this reflects real life more accurately since being a commissioned officer usually requires one to have been accepted and specially trained for that level of rank/responsibility from the get-go.

I know there are "in the field" commissions in the US (and probably most?) armed forces, don't know about the Kriegsmarine though. They seem to have been pretty picky about who was accepted for officer training, at least pre-war. I would assume any enlisted man would be able to advance to an NCO rank with the appropriate training if he proved worthy of that opportunity so I don't know why that's not possible in the game.

Interesting subject all around, so I'm curious to hear from those who have the scoop on Real Life vs The Game in this regard.

Usual advice hereabouts is to get and use SH3 Commander, it will give you more and better options for crew and career management. :yeah:

Oh and welcome aboard! :salute:

[Obltn Strand]

I think with SH3 Commander it's possible to promote an enlisted man into the officers' ranks - at least I'm assuming that the game recognizes it, the option appears to be there IIRC.


Other way around. Basic game with enough renown and promotion ordinary seaman can be promoted to nco and nco to officer.

[Jimbuna]

It is not possible to promote enlisted men to officer rank I'm afraid.

If you tweak/adjust the relevant files you can attain the rank of:

Fregattenkapitan then Kapitan z. S.

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

Real life on a ship:

All seamen are petty officers in training. They may be knot-tyers and they may be radiomen or machinists, but they are learning a specific skill. Once the reach the highest (Seaman 1st Class for the US and Matrosenobergefreiter for the Kriegsmarine) the become a junior petty officer and are considered 'rated', officially a member of that job description.

In real life it is possible for a sailor to go from sailor to petty officer, but in real life the captain doesn't have the power to promote him. He can recommend him for promotion, but it is done through official channels. And there is a reasonable chance that he would be reassigned at that point.

A Chief Petty Officer is the highest an enlisted man can go. There are 'higher' ratings, at least in the US (Senior Chief, Master Chief), but if someone is considered qualified for promotion to actual officer rank he has to go back to Officer Candidate School (or the German equivalent) and undergo training, so he would disappear from your crew and be replaced, not promoted on your boat.

Yes, there are battlefield promotions (one of my favorites is in The Longest Day, when Robert Mitchum promotes Jeffrey Hunter from sergeant to lieutenant and sends him of to die just minutes later), but they are usually considered 'brevet' promotions, which means they haven't been officially confirmed. 'General' George Custer was officially still a colonel when he was killed.

But that's the army and that's a battlefield. It's not nearly so common in the navy, where rank means less than proficiency.

[frau kaleun]

@Sailor Steve: Cool, thanks for the info.

Is the term "NCO" used in naval terminology at all, or is it strictly "Petty Officer" for the equivalent ranks?

[Sailor Steve]

'Non-Commissioned Offier' is in the books, but never used. Actually they are almost never called 'Petty Officers' either, at least in the US navy. They are always referred to by their rating, or just by their last name.

[Tessa]

It is not possible to promote enlisted men to officer rank I'm afraid.

If you tweak/adjust the relevant files you can attain the rank of:

Fregattenkapitan then Kapitan z. S.

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif


Actually....with SH3 Commander it is possible to promote seaman to NCO, and NCO to Officers. What you have to do first is dismiss one of the higher ranking crewmen in order to make space.

So if you wanted to promote a seaman to a NCO, you either need to be short of the max # that the boat allows, get a bigger boat that will allow a larger crew, or give one of your crew their walking papers (i.e. a NCO in order to promote a seaman, an Officer in order to promote a NCO). Though dismissing an Officer (as I think it reads in the manual) is more of a gesture of acknowledging that they are ready for command and you are giving them their chance. I know you can do it via SH3c, not 100% if you're using vanilla.

Far as rank ingame goes, without modding the highest rank you can get is Korvettenkapitan. Awhile back I figured out how to mod the game to add additional ranks, and some other work that is (still) in progress dealing with the medals/badges and other awards. Rather than try and explain the necessary files to change for them to work, just use SH3 Commander. I worked with Jasun to include the mods into the program and made the graphics for the additional ranks. With the new ranks you can rise as high as the rank of Admiral.

At the peak of my game, I could never rise above the rank of Kommodore; after Korvettekapitan the reknown needed for promotion starts to get extremely steep; if I remember correctly I got Kommodore at around 65,000 (current, not accumulated) reknown. As you can see in my signature, that was taken from my best career on my way to raid Gibraltor. Rather than get sunk, I ended up retiring in early 1944 with 1,800,000 tons of ships sunk (1,000,000 worth of warships, rest were merchants) and lived out the rest of the war in a cozy place in Switzerland :arrgh!: until it was safe to return to the fatherland and being sailing again ^^

'Non-Commissioned Offier' is in the books, but never used. Actually they are almost never called 'Petty Officers' either, at least in the US navy. They are always referred to by their rating, or just by their last name.

German Kriegsmarine ranks can be confusing as there are instances where it takes 2 promotions in order to achieve the equavalent one in the Allied forces. This page (http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms2/ranks-1944-2.jpg) is a really good one, it shows the progression of the (officer) ranks and their insignia; the insignia worn on the shoulder is very different than the US military's method. One item of note is that Germany historically used lower ranked officers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_officer_ranks_of_World_War_II) as u-boat commanders. Usually a major would be the CO of a submarine, whereas Germany would frequently use one who's rank was one or two lower than their American equivalent. Once one achieved the rank of Korvettenkapitän or Fregattenkapitän it would be rare to see them still on active service in a U-Boat; normally they'd be given (or encouraged) to take job landside as a Flotille commander or even base commander (something which required a much higher rank, usually captain or a 1 star admiral in the US Navy).

[Snestorm]

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.
When you hand them a qualification, it is the equivalent of their being promoted to Petty Officer.

Most Petty Officers attended a school for their particular specialty, but some do it the hard way.:

The individual must demonstrate an interest, proficiantcy towards, and some knowledge of a particular rate.

The Commanding Officer must approve the individual as a Striker for that particular rate.

The individual gets assigned to that particular department, for training.

The individual must meet all the requirements of both the rate, and Petty Officer Third, and recieve his Commanding Officer's recommendation for promotion.

The individual must take a competative navywide test, and score amongst the highest tier required for that particular billet. It is competative, and billets are only filled on an AS NEEDED NAVYWIDE basis.

Other factors for promotion are:
Time in service.
Time in rank.
Time in rate.

[Sailor Steve]

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.
I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

[Snestorm]

I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

That'll work too.

[Tessa]

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.
When you hand them a qualification, it is the equivalent of their being promoted to Petty Officer.

Most Petty Officers attended a school for their particular specialty, but some do it the hard way.:

The individual must demonstrate an interest, proficiantcy towards, and some knowledge of a particular rate.

The Commanding Officer must approve the individual as a Striker for that particular rate.

The individual gets assigned to that particular department, for training.

The individual must meet all the requirements of both the rate, and Petty Officer Third, and recieve his Commanding Officer's recommendation for promotion.

The individual must take a competative navywide test, and score amongst the highest tier required for that particular billet. It is competative, and billets are only filled on an AS NEEDED NAVYWIDE basis.

Other factors for promotion are:
Time in service.
Time in rank.
Time in rate.

As far as enlisted ranks go (in the game) they took short cuts to create that confusing mistake you mention. It should go:

Matrose (enlisted):
- gefreiter
- obergefreiter
- haupgefreiter
Bootsmann (NCO):
- Feldwebel
- Stabsfeldwebel <--- Missing
- Oberfeldwebel
- Stabsoberfeldwebel


Everything you've pointed out is unquestionably true, for Germany in wwii time was not on their side. With most crews not even lasting 5 or more patrols it wans't feasable to sink 2 years worth of training into a NCO that was probably going to die in his first or second patrol.

Agreed the game failed in recreating the process, but it does mirror to a certain degree what happened on the German side due to their massive losses and lack of any high or even many mid ranking officers survived at all. Where we had admirals in command of aircraft carriers in the pacific than the Germans did in their whole command; talk about a serious lack of leadership!

If one were to approach it realistically, anyone within their crew that they felt merited promotion to the next rate is to dismiss them from your crew (to signify sending them off to training), and go to the barracks and recruit either a new crewman to take the open spot (whether it be a Matrose or Bootsmann).

Once 1942 ended and the battle of the Atlantic was pretty much lost the whole system fell apart and replacements couldn't be trained to the same level as the 'old bunch'. After Prien, Schutze and Kretchsmer were captured/sunk only a few captains would later go on to even break 100,000 tons over their whole career.

[Snestorm]

@Tessa

You speek volumes of truth.

One had to be a fairly senior officer to command a VII"A", IX"A", or even a Type I, at war's start.

A few years later they were handing IXC keys over to fairly junior, and (in terms of command) inexperienced officers.

It's realy sad reading about the number of boats, in late war, that were lost on their first patrol.

[Tessa]

@Tessa

You speek volumes of truth.

One had to be a fairly senior officer to command a VII"A", IX"A", or even a Type I, at war's start.

A few years later they were handing IXC keys over to fairly junior, and (in terms of command) inexperienced officers.

It's realy sad reading about the number of boats, in late war, that were lost on their first patrol.

The Allies wised up after WWI and began re-capturing real-estate where the training grounds for the new officers and trainee capitains were. It became more of a trial by fire than a real training program after ~ 1943, only a handfull of officers really became proficient at the job like Topp and the (promoted) crew of U-48 which ultimatey comprised what remained of the combat elite.

After some researching I finally figured out the answer to your earlier question about a NCO w/o any pips. Found a much more detailed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_German_Army_Ranks_and_Insignia#Office r_candidates.2C_F.C3.A4hnrich) chart of all the enlisted ranks. Many of the odd looking ranks (like the blank nco's, or ones with 2 horizontal stripes across them) generally denoted NCO's that were Officer's in training.

Since (especially the Kriegsmarine) suffered from a full staffed leadership hierarchy many crewman would automatically be promoted to NCO ranks after 4 months as a sqaud leader on patrol, and then again in another 4 months if not promoted otherwise (and survived!). In a way, for the wrong reasons those that survived long enough to go on multiple patrols either were lucky or were doing something right with a 75% fatality rate; having the automatic promotions (under the conditions) I don't think were a bad thing as anyone that did get them were considered seasoned and (theoretically) knew what they were doing by then.

[maillemaker]

I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[Sailor Steve]

IBut other than that, I don't use it for much.
Every time you sink a ship it is given a name. It is a name of a ship of roughly the same size and appearance of the model you sank. It also gives a cargo that that ship actually carried at one point or another, and roughly the same size crew. Of course I'm biased about that function, but for me it also increases the immersion tenfold.

For me the other charm of Commander is the 'Realistic Career' option, which means that I probably won't have to finish the war, but will be retired to a desk or school job, which is what really happened.

As far as crew qualifications goes, there is no such thing as an unqualified petty officer. The training is what earns them that title and grade. The way the stock game does it is totally unrealistic. Besides, giving them the qual doesn't give them the experience. They still have to earn that themselves.

Commander is one of the few reasons I even play SH3 any more, since SH4 does everything better but doesn't have the mods yet (if ever).

[maillemaker]

Every time you sink a ship it is given a name. It is a name of a ship of roughly the same size and appearance of the model you sank. It also gives a cargo that that ship actually carried at one point or another, and roughly the same size crew. Of course I'm biased about that function, but for me it also increases the immersion tenfold.

I found that mildly interesting. But it really does nothing for me "in game".

For me the other charm of Commander is the 'Realistic Career' option, which means that I probably won't have to finish the war, but will be retired to a desk or school job, which is what really happened.

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.

As far as crew qualifications goes, there is no such thing as an unqualified petty officer. The training is what earns them that title and grade. The way the stock game does it is totally unrealistic. Besides, giving them the qual doesn't give them the experience. They still have to earn that themselves.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.

Steve

[Snestorm]

The Allies wised up after WWI and began re-capturing real-estate where the training grounds for the new officers and trainee capitains were. It became more of a trial by fire than a real training program after ~ 1943, only a handfull of officers really became proficient at the job like Topp and the (promoted) crew of U-48 which ultimatey comprised what remained of the combat elite.

After some researching I finally figured out the answer to your earlier question about a NCO w/o any pips. Found a much more detailed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_German_Army_Ranks_and_Insignia#Office r_candidates.2C_F.C3.A4hnrich) chart of all the enlisted ranks. Many of the odd looking ranks (like the blank nco's, or ones with 2 horizontal stripes across them) generally denoted NCO's that were Officer's in training.

Since (especially the Kriegsmarine) suffered from a full staffed leadership hierarchy many crewman would automatically be promoted to NCO ranks after 4 months as a sqaud leader on patrol, and then again in another 4 months if not promoted otherwise (and survived!). In a way, for the wrong reasons those that survived long enough to go on multiple patrols either were lucky or were doing something right with a 75% fatality rate; having the automatic promotions (under the conditions) I don't think were a bad thing as anyone that did get them were considered seasoned and (theoretically) knew what they were doing by then.

Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing.

[Tessa]

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.

Steve

Trying to survive to the end and be on patrol at war's end (like Topp) is a tall order, just getting through 1944 is murder with all the air cover.

I still use SHC, but don't let it ruin my crews exp. My last patrol I had problems just manning some stations with almost 75% of my crew all at ! from being at action stations two days nonstop. Got lucky and ran into a gale near Denmark in early Winter, submerged and let my crew rest while I just put the ship to silent and slow speed at a course that led me into a harbor with the perfect firing angles on the 2 DD's; then took out the cargo after we'd recovered since in that weather no surface ship was going anywhere :arrgh!:

Don't think that Ubisoft had Das Boot in mind when making the game and using the German Cross as the anti-fatigue panacea; but it is appropriate. The chief in the movie's the only member with that award and he's got a pure Rasputin constitution, even after dropping a nuke besides the roaches still being left I believe the chief would find a way to make it through :|\\

Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing.

Your welcome, for myself it really helped make a lot of things come together and understood why such an overly complex system was put into place. Had Germany had the resources to continue training Officers/NCO's in this manner throughout the war it would've caused a lot more problems for us. The whole system got put into motion in 1930, so just like today you would get good NCO's with 7-12 years experience Germany started the war as such but couldn't maintain the standards for more than a bit more than 2 years after they sucked the pool dry.

Also wanted to thank you for (indirectly) helping me finish my research for the mod I've always wanted to implement (even if I'm the only one that ever uses it!). There's a number of historical inaccuracies that have really taxed my patience as someone that collects WWII militaria and really enjoys and appreciates its history.

This game butchers some of it so much it kills a kitten each time it twists history. What I hope to be able to accomplish with my mod is to fix many of the mistakes and fabrications with the medals so that when you get awarded some of the higher ones they really do give you a sense of accomplishment. There's a few I hope to add (like the war merit crosses, honor roll, and a few others), and some that I am dying to fix - 86'ing the combat clasp in GOLD since it NEVER existed, there was only bronze and a very small amount in silver awarded (only a thousand or two could have been awarded requiring 5 years of service to be eligible), and fixing some of the (incorrect) medal dependencies like removing the German Cross - it wasn't required for the RK, it was actually awarded in cases where action didn't merit a RK; nor was it required (like the EK1 & 2) in order to get the RK; and some other issues dealing with dates awards became available and finally making the correct dependencies (like needing the RK with OL in order to get the Submarine Badge with Diamonds) and some other stuff that will hopefully spice up the game a bit. Thus my post in the mod forum about asking for help in setting up test cases to go about the (now directed) trial and error on which settings to tweak and add in order to make this happen.

[Sailor Steve]

I found that mildly interesting. But it really does nothing for me "in game".
True. Unfortunately it can't be made otherwise.

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.
Good point. I don't play that way, so I didn't even think of that angle.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.
Another excellent point. I guess we're all limited by the way we see things. Good thing we have all these options.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.
I'm just the opposite. I don't care how qualified the crew is, as long as the values are realistic. My style is to go to my assigned grid and stay there until fuel or ammunition forces me home. I might wander to the next grid after several weeks of seeing nothing, but I do see a lot of nothing.

I was once even in a boat that was ordered to the north of Iceland by a real-life 'immersion' order, so I went and stayed there the rest of the patrol. never saw a thing.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.
:rock: Ya gotta do what turns you on the most. But of course I also use 'Realistic Transfers', so I lose crew all the time.

[Kremmen]

Whoa ...never realised you could handle all the qualifications through Commander,very interesting,though I do like handing out the medals and qualifications after a patrol,like they've been earned it does indeed make sense that certain crewmen would be qualified in their specific roles onboard.
More options....:D

Kremmen

...yea I didn't RTFM :rotfl2:

[twblackeagle]

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs


First off, I absolutely LOVE this game! :yeah:

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

[twblackeagle]

Guten Tag,

I've read your comments with great interest.

I've survived 19 missions and amassed enough renown to get into the Type XXI. During this long process my crewaccumulated enough medals to see all who survived at least 8 missions with the cross in gold. All stations are now manned without need to switch crew for rest periods. Not realistic to be sure, but very convenient to manage.

Could I use SH3 Commander to appropriately fit into this setting?

Good Hunting,

Oberleutant z s Rolfe Hass


I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[twblackeagle]

Guten Tag,

I've read your comments with great interest.

I've survived 19 missions and amassed enough renown to get into the Type XXI. During this long process my crewaccumulated enough medals to see all who survived at least 8 missions with the cross in gold. All stations are now manned without need to switch crew for rest periods. Not realistic to be sure, but very convenient to manage.

Could I use Commander to appropriately fit into this setting?

Good Hunting,

Oberleutant z s Rolfe Hass


I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[frau kaleun]

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

[Sailor Steve]

For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.
GWX will promote you to Oberleutnant after your very first patrol.

As Frau Kaleun said, Oberleutnant z.S. was very junior for a u-boat commander, not senior. "Herr Kaleun" heard often in Das Boot, was the most common rank for that position, Kapitänleutnant z.S. A senior commander might be a Korvettenkapitän, and above that would almost certainly be assigned a command position (or transferred to command of a major surface warship).

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

[frau kaleun]

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank. :D

[Tessa]

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

Except really for the first two years and change of the war when rank and operations worked like they were suppposed to the kriegsmarine had the lowest amount of officers of any service. Unlike the US where they could afford to have 2 and 3 star admirals commanding single ships, the Kriegsmarine couldn't muster up enough admirals in the whole branch to equal what we had just out at sea (mostly as flat top captains). In contrast to the kriegsmarine, most allied sub commanders started as either majors or lt. commanders (equivalent to Korvettenkapitän or Fregattenkapitän). Don't think there were any admirals that remained at sea in command of their own submarines, the highest being captains (Kapitän zur See). Though a few Kapitän zur See did remain at see in command of their own boats, you can count them on one hand!

Imagine if Kaleuns like Prien or Kretschmer took on positions as Flotille commanders or kommandant/senior trainers at u-boat schools the u-boat service might have been able to retain more of its initial higher level of proficiency when sending out new boats to sea. While no single action could have prevented the outcome, had each gross mistake been corrected it might have made things more interesting and reduced the fatality rate down from 75% to something at least humane, at that rate I think Kamikaze's actually inflicted more overall damage (despite the effort overall being a failure), it did inflict fear into the surface ship crews and usually cause moderate to major damage when a plane was successful.

At the least, it would have made the allies uneasy knowing that such great men were still alive and teaching/passing on their knowledge to new and existing officers might have shifted their priorities - to expend more resources bombing the u-boot pens and schools than using 100% of them to hunting u-boots instead. Just as the German wehrmact was scarred to death of Patton, the navies could have been equally freightened of Kretchsmer, Prien or Topp planning, organizing and sending out wolf packs that would've stood a much better chance at success.

In any other branch field grade officers became almost like flag rank status in the kriegsmarine - you had Korvettenkapitän's as Flotille commanders! That's the same as putting a Major from the allied forces in charge of a major base like Pearl Harbor or Gibraltor! In most cases it seemed that getting promoted to Korvettenkapitän was like a death sentence, with only a handfull of them actually surviving to either take a command on land or surive to the end of the war.

[Sailor Steve]

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank. :D
Very true. I was only considering the ranks themselves.

[K-61]

I find one of the most useful aspects of SH3 Commander to be the ability to assign qualifcations to seamen. I know they do not affect actual efficiency, but they are quite useful as "markers" so that I know which men go where. For example, I have two sets of engine personnel, so they swap out one for one at watch change. Same with control room personnel, and so on.

I also enable realistic career length. However, this does not mean I am not exposed to the progression of the war. As a captain gets retired, I start a new career at the same month where the previous career was killed or retired. I have not yet unretired a captain, but that is something I may consider.

Medals? They don't mean much to my crewmen, so long as their captain gets his itchy neck scratched. I find the usage of medals to fight fatigue to be a hokey feature. I use the GWX fatigue model; by having two men for each job that managing fatigue is almost nonexistent for me. The trickier job is dealing with that fifth officer, for which I admit that a medal substitutes for his missing bunk. Out of curiousity, since I don't have the game, how does SH5 deal with crew issues?

[sergei]

Out of curiousity, since I don't have the game, how does SH5 deal with crew issues?

Not very well I'm afraid.
The crew management screen only allows you access to your officers and key personnel.
And the cook.
As far as the game is concerned, the rest of the crew don't exist.
On a related note, I don't think any of them can get killed, since the game needs them for dialogue interactions.

As the patrol progresses, morale goes down, rising again when you sink ships.
OK, I can get with that.
But it's poorly implemented.

If morale goes down too far, the crew just flat out refuse to do their jobs.
If I'm in a combat situation and order the deck gun to be manned, and they just look at me and say "Cannot comply", then I'm going to be pulling my Luger out to offer encouragement.
The game does not let me do this unfortunately.

IMO the crew should always follow an order, but maybe be better at doing their job if morale is high.

You get points to spend on your officers as you sink more ships (think renown).
Some of the abilities you can give your officers make sense eg. allowing your Watch Officer to spot ships a little bit further away.
But some are just appallingly bad.
Making the torpedoes go faster?
With a warhead that does 25% more damage?
I don't think so.
(By the way - a bug related to the 'Go Faster' eels, is that after you have picked this, the TDC does not compensate for the increased speed, so you are now incapable of hitting anything!)

Having said all this, I must sound like I am painting a pretty gloomy picture.
Remember, I am describing the stock game here.

There are already mods available that deal with the morale problem, and rework the Officers Abilities to be more realistic, reflecting increased training and proficiency at their jobs, rather than Magic Powers.

You know it's funny - despite the fact that most of the crew in SH3 are just little icons on a screen, rather than fully rendered in a 3d environment, I always managed to feel a much greater attachment to them then I ever managed in SH5.
I guess that fact tells you all you really need to know about the difference.

[K-61]

Wow, sounds like they did a real job on SH5. To think! They had all that work done by the modding community and ignored almost all of it. My cash is staying in my pocket.

[Tessa]

There are already mods available that deal with the morale problem, and rework the Officers Abilities to be more realistic, reflecting increased training and proficiency at their jobs, rather than Magic Powers.

Do any of these mods address the helmsmen qualification, i.e. actually making it of any use? I've seen the mod that allows you to actually do navigation yourself using an astrolabe and star charts, but nothing so far that requires the navigator to have the skill to actually do the job (something which would've been impossible for anyone else in the crew just to pick up on unless previously trained, an u-boat at sea that had their navigator die would've been likely to perish being unable to figure out how to get home or even find land if they were in the middle of the Atlantic). Or does the game assume that since the captain would've been required to know how to do it also that in the event the navigator died he'd be able to take his place?

[sergei]

Don't know.
I'm talking about SH5 mods here, so your best bet would probably be to post this question in the SH5 mods forum.

[frau kaleun]

Or does the game assume that since the captain would've been required to know how to do it also that in the event the navigator died he'd be able to take his place?

Good question. I do know that when I look at my crew listing in SH3 Commander, it shows the qualifications awarded to each crew member and for the commander it says "ALL."

Now whether this is something that Commander simply adds to the printout for some reason, or whether it reflects the game's having "awarded" every possible qualification to the commander automatically at the start of his career, I don't know. But given that what Commander in general does tell you about your career/crew is either 1) already in the game, 2) being added to the game by Commander, or 3) of no real gameplay value (real ship names, gossip in the nightclub) - I'm gonna say it reflects what's in the game. So I'm thinking that, yes, the game would consider the commander qualified to "take over" for the navigator.

BUT - if you didn't have another officer to put at the vacant station, none of the things that require an officer to be on duty there would happen or get done anyway, even if the commander was fully capable of taking over there. The game won't let him fill that slot to provide full functionality of the station in question.

So I guess if your navigator got killed, and you had to put a less-qualified officer at his station, from that point on you could see it as the commander overseeing the stand-in navigator to make sure his "work" was up to the bare minimum standards required to get home in one piece.

I wonder, though, in RL - say a u-boat's navigation officer was killed on patrol, surely there would have to be someone on board with enough training to take over his duties? In RL navigators were typically petty officers anyway, not commissioned as in the game. Surely there would be someone else trained in that specialty but lower in rank who could fill in, with or without the assistance of a knowledgable commander. AFAIK they didn't go to sea with only one guy who knew how to use the hydrophones, seems like having a navigation backup would be given the same or higher priority.:hmmm:

Actually, not sure now if you're asking about SH3 or 5. :doh:

[sergei]

Actually, not sure now if you're asking about SH3 or 5. :doh:

No, me neither now.

Could you clarify Tessa?

[Tessa]

SH3, not going anywhere near 5 with its dracanion drm. Jobs like the hydrophone, engineering need to be manned with a crew/person that knows how to operate 24/7. The navigator is unique in that he's only needed when changing course/destination. Since naval navigation requires at least 2 people to do the job you're right, there would be at least one other person on board that could potentially fill in. Probably a senior crewman trying to learn it so they have better chance of promotion to a PO irl.

The captain should know how to navigate as their first year in the Navy was usually spent aboard a sailing ship where they'd learn basic seamanship - which would include how to navigate at some point. Though in SHC it lists that you have all the skills, irl I doubt that they could have helped out much as an engineer/mechanic or doing repairs. Also probably wouldn't know how to operate the deck gun or flak either. Generally Captains were good navigators on their own, though they tended to use the stars more as their tools to navigate than the sun.

[Sailor Steve]

I find one of the most useful aspects of SH3 Commander to be the ability to assign qualifcations to seamen. I know they do not affect actual efficiency, but they are quite useful as "markers" so that I know which men go where. For example, I have two sets of engine personnel, so they swap out one for one at watch change. Same with control room personnel, and so on.
Excellent! Something in all this time I never actually thought of. I was only a seaman, but I was a radioman in training and the one time they needed someone on the key I was the only one who still knew enough morse to be useful, being fresh out of RM school.

I think I will start assigning divisions to my regular enlisted, for the very reason you gave. Thanks for the hint!

I also enable realistic career length. However, this does not mean I am not exposed to the progression of the war. As a captain gets retired, I start a new career at the same month where the previous career was killed or retired. I have not yet unretired a captain, but that is something I may consider.
Thanks to my experience years ago with SH1, I have simultaneous careers, one from each command. When one dies or retires I do exactly the same - start a new career from that command at the beginning of the same month.

Medals? They don't mean much to my crewmen, so long as their captain gets his itchy neck scratched. I find the usage of medals to fight fatigue to be a hokey feature. I use the GWX fatigue model; by having two men for each job that managing fatigue is almost nonexistent for me. The trickier job is dealing with that fifth officer, for which I admit that a medal substitutes for his missing bunk.
I keep a running log in a notebook, and only award medals to men I feel truly deserve them. Of course everybody gets the U-boat Badge after his second patrol, but the rest only go to the deserving.