[REL] Campaign layers with zigzagging units

[LGN1]

Hi,

the purpose of this mod is to make the game more realistic by having ships that change their course much more frequently than in the stock campaign. A very informative thread about the zigzagging of ships can be found here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=139391

Using some scripts I have written some time ago, I have created campaign layers for GWX (stock and New Wilhelmshaven/St Naz ports addon for GWX 3) and NYGM which include zigzagging units. Depending on their size, speed,... ships and convoys now change course frequently. Consequences are:

- Finding/Catching radio contacts is much harder now because of the course changes

- You have to observe the ships much longer. No more shadowing for 30 min., then end-around outside of the range of sight with full speed, and then waiting in front until the ships arrive. Now you have to stay in the range of sight for quite some time while shadowing and thus, you increase the chance of being spotted

- Positioning yourself ahead of a ship is now much harder. You first have to find out the basic zigzag pattern to know where to position yourself. Being surfaced is now a big advantage because you are more flexible. This makes night attacks more attractive. Finally, it's great to see the pattern emerge on your map.

All in all the mod makes hunting ships much more varied.

You can find an action report here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1342092&postcount=36

You can download the layers together with the scripts here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1681

Or the layers alone here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3306

In order to make the shadowing easier, I recommend to use a map update mod that provides some limited information on the map (especially about the course of the contact so that you know when it changes course, see below)

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9149/maph.jpg (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/maph.jpg/)

Please post some feedback, e.g. too many course changes, not enough course changes, weird behavior,... without feedback I cannot improve it.

Finally, thanks to Stiebler, Bigboywooly, and Hitman for giving me the permission to use the files.


Cheers, LGN1

[sharkbit]

Kooool!

Looking forward to trying it out. Lack of zigging has always been a realism killer in the game.
Your mod will make things a bit more challenging.

Thanks for your work! :salute:

:)

[h.sie]

great work. did the additional waypoints increase the loading times and RAM allocation too much so that a splitting of the campaign files was necessary?

[LGN1]

Hi,

thanks for the kind words.

@h.sie: Yes, a splitting was necessary because of the size of the files. I tried to limit the files to the same size as the stock rnd file has. At the moment it requires to change the campaign layer approx. 3 times for a full war campaign (Mid-End 40 when you move to France, Mid-End 42, and Mid-End 44). I think that's acceptable.

Unfortunatly, the long-range patrols (US coast, Carribean, South Atlantic) are not yet covered. I might add them later depending on the feedback (e.g., zigzagging in the Carribean). However, since I don't know how many people make long-range patrols and there are quite a few areas, I am not sure whether it's worth the effort.

After you have run a first patrol, please post some feedback. As a single player I cannot gather enough experience alone (especially about convoy attacks).

Cheers, LGN1

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hi LGN1,

The GWX 3.0 default campaign files already contain random waypoint and speed changes for a majority... if not all... convoy traffic (and single-merchant traffic IIRC.)

Can you describe how your work is different from what is already presented in GWX 3.0?

Cheers.

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

it will take some time until I start to play a campaign. Maybe one year. :DL

You didn't understand my question. If the file size rises about a factor of three, do the loading times also rise about the same factor? Maybe loading times are mainly depending on the amount of different scripted units?
I'll test that in the next days, because I don't like splitted campaign files.

greetings,
h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi,

@Kpt. Lehmann: Just take a look at this thread (especially post #7):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165794

and the action report I linked above. The main difference is that the zigzag pattern is much 'smaller' now. Ships now change course every few miles. Depending on the weather conditions and the contact, you have to figure out the zigzag pattern before you can attack (especially when using manual targeting. I already missed some shots because the ships changed course when I fired). Shadowing a contact is now much more interesting.


@h.sie: From my experience the loading times are determined by the amount of units and the size of the campaign layers. I never tested whether the crucial point is the number of units or the waypoints. However, if you add a fine zigzag pattern to the complete stock campaign you will end up with an RND layer around 100MB :timeout: For the present campaigns I added around 40000 new waypoints.
If you don't like changing the campaign layers you can also just restrict the area where the ships zigzag. However, I think you have to restrict the layers either in time or place :-? It's not a perfect solution, but I think it's worth it (Another solution would be to use a 'bigger' zigzag pattern. However, from my experience you do not gain much from a pattern with legs larger than around 25km).

Cheers, LGN1

[slipper]

Thanks LGN, another great addition to GWX, your efforts greatly appreciated.

regards

slipper

[Sailor Steve]

In order to make the shadowing easier, I recommend to use a map update mod that provides some limited information on the map (especially about the course of the contact so that you know when it changes course, see below)

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9149/maph.jpg (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/maph.jpg/)
The whole point of running a zig-zag course is so the enemy submarine won't know where the convoy has turned to. Contacts were few and far-between, usually based on one sighting.

[LGN1]

The whole point of running a zig-zag course is so the enemy submarine won't know where the convoy has turned to. Contacts were few and far-between, usually based on one sighting.

Hi Sailor Steve,

I agree with you that the information given about the course is not 100% realistic. Especially, the fact that you are informed instantaneously. However, the crew would definitely recognize a course change after some time and inform the captain. After some more time they would also know roughly (N,NW,...) the new course. Since the crew does not really interact with you in SH3, I consider the course information a good compromise. Both ways are not realistic. Without map information shadowing the contacts is really a lot of work :yep:

Cheers, LGN1

PS: You can also edit the menu_*.txt in order to make the course information less accurate or just indicating a course change.

[Henri II]

When you posted the original thread about zigzaging some month ago, I went and applied the script to the whole GWX Merged Campaign file. The resulting File was 78 MB (original file was around 10 MB). The loading times did definitely increase, but it was tolerable. At least for me it was worth waiting a few minutes vs messing with the area/time limits and managing different campaign files.
Now some general feedback (with my own modified file):

-The faster the ship the more effective the zigzagging. In cases of large and fast convoys it might take you several hours to get in a new attack position, and than it might already be due for another course change.

-In some cases the course change actually achived the opposite, instead of spoiling the attack it got me in an even better attack position.

-Did not detect any wierd behaviour. Sometimes, especially in rough weather, it might take a convoy some time to sort out the formation after a course change. That however happens after every course change not only during zigzagging.

-You did not mention it, but after running the script I checked the file with the mission editor, and there were quite a few cases where either a waypoint or the line between two waypoints ended up on land. Might be necessery to comb through the whole traffic to prevent that.

All in all it deffenitely improved the experience.

[LGN1]

Hi Henri II,

thanks for the feedback :up: I am glad that you did not observe any strange behavior. In the present version I have limited the zigzagging to convoys consisting of 5 or less columns (better formation keeping. As pointed out in the thread linked in the first post, broad and slow convoys did not zigzag).

Fast, escorted ships in bad weather are now really hard to catch. I like this a lot.

Concerning the point that you gained from the zigzag, I guess that also happened in real life :cool: I also gained once when I was hunting two ships with a speed of 12kn and my boat made only 13kn (malfunction from SH Commander :up:). Because of the zigzag I had a bigger speed advantage and could catch them :yeah:

Unfortunately, the script cannot check whether a waypoint is on land. I guess this is not a problem as long as you are not in rendering range. You can either: 1) limit the script to areas without land 2) go through the campaign layers with the mission editor and fix the waypoints 3) do not hunt too close to coastal waters (30km). In the present mod I checked the campaign layers and moved some waypoints, but I am sure there are still some left.

Finally, just three questions: Did you use map updates? Did you use manual targeting? How many km was a zigzag leg when you applied the script to the merged campaign (the 78 MB case)?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Cheers, LGN1

When you posted the original thread about zigzaging some month ago, I went and applied the script to the whole GWX Merged Campaign file. The resulting File was 78 MB (original file was around 10 MB). The loading times did definitely increase, but it was tolerable. At least for me it was worth waiting a few minutes vs messing with the area/time limits and managing different campaign files.
Now some general feedback (with my own modified file):

-The faster the ship the more effective the zigzagging. In cases of large and fast convoys it might take you several hours to get in a new attack position, and than it might already be due for another course change.

-In some cases the course change actually achived the opposite, instead of spoiling the attack it got me in an even better attack position.

-Did not detect any wierd behaviour. Sometimes, especially in rough weather, it might take a convoy some time to sort out the formation after a course change. That however happens after every course change not only during zigzagging.

-You did not mention it, but after running the script I checked the file with the mission editor, and there were quite a few cases where either a waypoint or the line between two waypoints ended up on land. Might be necessery to comb through the whole traffic to prevent that.

All in all it deffenitely improved the experience.

[LGN1]

I just added zigzag patterns (with the same parameters as in the present mod) to the stock GWX file. The script added roughly 330000 waypoints and the new file was 60 MB. Anyone wants to try it :D

[slipper]

I wouldn't mind giving it a go to see if it works, save me having to remember to load files :)

cheers

slipper

[Ducimus]

the zigzag pattern is much 'smaller' now. Ships now change course every few miles
...

I never tested whether the crucial point is the number of units or the waypoints. However, if you add a fine zigzag pattern to the complete stock campaign you will end up with an RND layer around 100MB
...
(Another solution would be to use a 'bigger' zigzag pattern. However, from my experience you do not gain much from a pattern with legs larger than around 25km)

I did something similar to this. Sounds like the exact same thing i did in TMO for SH4. If so, i can tell you that you CAN get over ambitious with this. The number of way points does effect system performance. PM Tater about this. He did more experimentation with this trying to get convoys to have a constant helming effect. So he could give you a more positive answer.

Long story short, I don't believe your going to get zig zag patterns without some compromise. In SH4, if memory serves me correctly, i used a 25, or 30 KM leg on my patterns (i forget which. If i had the files infront of me i could tell you though), with a 10KM random radius. I had to keep it small because the PTO has alot of geographical features to steer around. You could probably use larger for the ATO though i don't know if you want your waypoint radius's overlapping or not. Anywho, my file sizes for these convoy layers went from like 600 KB to 2 to 3 MB. It was the best compromise for little to no degredation in system performance.

:hmmm: That's another thing. SH3 loads the entire layer for all years at once. That may be a limiting factor in terms of performance. I don't know, but ill bet your load times get HUGE. One thing to keep in mind is that odds are, the player is not going to come in contact with a convoy at the beginning of a zig/zag leg. They'll encounter it, and have no idea how soon it might zig, until it does. At which point they may be right on the firing bearing, or they might not. Using larger random radius on your waypoints will add a level of unpredictablity while saving resources by using less waypoints to define your zig zag pattern.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hi,

@Kpt. Lehmann: Just take a look at this thread (especially post #7):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165794

and the action report I linked above. The main difference is that the zigzag pattern is much 'smaller' now. Ships now change course every few miles. Depending on the weather conditions and the contact, you have to figure out the zigzag pattern before you can attack (especially when using manual targeting. I already missed some shots because the ships changed course when I fired). Shadowing a contact is now much more interesting.


@h.sie: From my experience the loading times are determined by the amount of units and the size of the campaign layers. I never tested whether the crucial point is the number of units or the waypoints. However, if you add a fine zigzag pattern to the complete stock campaign you will end up with an RND layer around 100MB :timeout: For the present campaigns I added around 40000 new waypoints.
If you don't like changing the campaign layers you can also just restrict the area where the ships zigzag. However, I think you have to restrict the layers either in time or place :-? It's not a perfect solution, but I think it's worth it (Another solution would be to use a 'bigger' zigzag pattern. However, from my experience you do not gain much from a pattern with legs larger than around 25km).

Cheers, LGN1

Thank you.

Does your work still retain the random waypoint changes and random speed changes introduced in the GWX campaign files?

[Henri II]

Hi Henri II,

...

Finally, just three questions: Did you use map updates? Did you use manual targeting? How many km was a zigzag leg when you applied the script to the merged campaign (the 78 MB case)?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Cheers, LGN1

Map updates were on, autotargeting off. I don't remember the exact size of the leg but I think I left it at the default value or something very close to it.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier, it is now a lot more difficult to intercept a convoy from the contact report. It seems the course given in the report is the course of the current zigzagg leg, not the general course of the convoy. That means, if if try to intercept it from a long distance, you have to make a guess about the general course. If you guess wrong your plot might be off by some hundred km, which is nice.

[LGN1]

Hi,

@Ducimus: Thanks for the reply! You are right, I got inspired from the work done for SH4. I was surprised that such a tool for SH4 (mcoca's Automated Campaign Editor) did not exist (in the public?) for SH3. I read all the zigzag posts in the SH4 forum. I agree that it's not possible to realize the original patterns posted by Tater in the thread linked in my first post. However, it's my experience that already a pattern with a 'leg length' of around 20km changes the game play considerably. If it's longer you do not gain much.

Concerning the zigzag pattern, it's a fine line between being too predictible and too random. I use non-overlapping random radii and have a random chance that the pattern changes at some point. So even if you plot the pattern for some time it might change when you attack.


Does your work still retain the random waypoint changes and random speed changes introduced in the GWX campaign files?

The waypoints have random radii to guarantee varying 'leg lengths' and course changes. However, the loop feature is disabled. Instead the pattern changes randomly. The speed changes at the 'GWX waypoints', but not at every zigzag waypoint, i.e., it changes only over longer distances, not every few kilometers (it changes a bit because of the speed loss at waypoints).

Map updates were on, autotargeting off. I don't remember the exact size of the leg but I think I left it at the default value or something very close to it.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier, it is now a lot more difficult to intercept a convoy from the contact report. It seems the course given in the report is the course of the current zigzagg leg, not the general course of the convoy. That means, if if try to intercept it from a long distance, you have to make a guess about the general course. If you guess wrong your plot might be off by some hundred km, which is nice.

Thanks for the feedback! So it was around 25km.

At the moment all ships/convoys use the same pattern. Depending on the feedback, it might be worth the effort to change this so that convoys might have longer 'legs', unescorted fast ships shorter 'legs',...

Cheers, LGN1

[makman94]

congratulations LGN1 ! :up:

i don't play anymore the game (so don't expect a feedback from me) but always your mods-ideas are very interesting !

one question : what method for ploting is that is showing at your pics ?? can you give some info on this? seems interesting !

thank you

keep up the good moding !

[h.sie]

just inspected the results using the mission editor.

G R E A T !!!

[h.sie]

I just added zigzag patterns (with the same parameters as in the present mod) to the stock GWX file. The script added roughly 330000 waypoints and the new file was 60 MB. Anyone wants to try it :D

Hi LGN,

Took my stopwatch and determined loading times on my average Office PC.

1. Unmodified GWX-RND layer:
Filesize now approx 8MB.
loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 1.8GB

2. Added zigzag (25km max. length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 60MB.
Loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 2GB.

3. Added zigzag (15km max. length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 140MB.
CTD.

h.sie.

[h.sie]

It's me again: Would you consider the default values of your zigzag script as recommendable and halfway realistic?

Thanx, h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi all,

congratulations LGN1 ! :up:

i don't play anymore the game (so don't expect a feedback from me) but always your mods-ideas are very interesting !

one question : what method for ploting is that is showing at your pics ?? can you give some info on this? seems interesting !

thank you

keep up the good moding !

Thanks for the nice words. Do you mean all the lines in the plot? It's a method I picked up in some post here (don't remember who posted it :06:). It's just a workaround to note the time on the map. The length of the vertical lines is just the time when the sighting happened, e.g., 12.5km = sighting happened at 12:50. It's a pity that you cannot write any comments on the map directly :nope:

Hi LGN,

Took my stopwatch and determined loading times on my average Office PC.

1. Unmodified GWX-RND layer:
loading time = 3:45min.

2. Added zigzag (25km length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 60MB.
Loading time = 3:45min. RAM-Allocation 2GB instead of 1.8GB.

3. Added zigzag (15km length) to the WHOLE RND layer.
Filesize now approx 140MB.
CTD.

h.sie.

Thanks for the test :up: I'm reluctant about too large files. For people with weaker PCs (not much RAM) it might crash earlier (especially when people use other memory intensive mods). That's why I prefer to release only the split campaign (as said earlier, I don't mind changing the layers 3 times over the whole war. Maybe because I never went through the whole war in all the years playing the game :timeout:). Why don't you like changing the layers? Out of convenience or because of save game issues?

Anyway, the beauty about releasing also tools and not only finished mods is that anyone can adjust it to their taste :yep:

Cheers, LGN1

Just a side note: After you ran the scripts it's a good idea to open the file in the mission editor, check it, and save it again. The saving reduces the file size a bit (The number of decimal digits is reduced. I was too lazy to fix the number of digits in the script).

[LGN1]

It's me again: Would you consider the default values of your zigzag script as recommendable and halfway realistic?

Thanx, h.sie

Hi h.sie,

realistic? I don't know. Take a look at the thread linked in the first post with the original Japanese patterns. Comparing with these it's not very realistic. However, I think it's definitely more realistic than stock. It just makes hunting and sinking ships less uniform because you don't know in the beginning where it will zigzag (towards you, away from you),... Hunting the (more or less) straight running ships in stock became boring for me.

In one of the old threads a length of around 10 miles was recommended (I don't know nautical or statute). I like 16km because it's the limit of the range of sight in best conditions. So, if you submerge at the range of sight the ship will have definitely changed course when it reaches your position. So you have to guess/predict its change.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

thanks. I'll take 15km. Allow me some more questions. What is the intention behind the "Zigzag in Bay of Biscay" and "Zigzag in North Sea"-Options?

Why shouldn't they zigzag there?

Thx, h.,sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

currently the script checks whether a waypoint is in the rectangle you specify at the beginning. If you want to avoid any potential problems with the land you choose a rectangle that does not cover any land. In principle, you can run the script again and again with different rectangles and in this way 'patch up' the whole map without covering any land. Since this is a quite tedious work, I added two other rectangles (the most heavily used), North Sea and Bay of Biscay (see the map in the mod). So basically you can choose a rectangle that does not cover the Bay of Biscay and choose the option Zigzag in Bay... and the script also adds a zz pattern if the waypoint is in the 'Bay of Biscay box'. You see what I mean? In other words, it just allows you to have more rectangles in a single run of the script.

If your initial rectangle covers the Bay of Biscay or North Sea area you can either specify yes or no. It doesn't change anything. I am sorry for the misleading formulation. It only adds zz patterns to the area if the area is not included in the initial rectangle, but does NOT avoid zz patterns in the area if it's part in the initial/user-specified rectangle and no is chosen. I have to check the read-me and if necessary make this more clear.

To summarize, you can completely ignore the option if you don't care about including land in your chosen area and you make this area large enough.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

thank you, LGN1

[LGN1]

Concerning 15km: I think this is fine. However be careful with a too short distance. There might be several problems:

- many waypoints
- it will take some time for convoys to arrange their formation again. Not enough time might confuse them too much
- the offset from the main course becomes smaller and smaller. For an zz angle of 25 degrees the distance is roughly 15km*sin(25). If this distance becomes too small you can easily position yourself just ahead of the contact and will end up in firing range.

I have choosen an angle of 25 degrees because cos(25) is roughly 0.9. Thus, the speed of the ship towards its destination is only 90% of the ship's sailing speed (increasing the time of the journey by a factor of about 1.1 and thus also increasing the danger). I don't think they sacrificed more speed for the pattern. I don't know whether it has any relevance, but if you look at the most simple pattern of the posted Japanese zz patterns you can also see an angle of 25 degrees.

Cheers, LGN1

Just another remark: the distance you specify is an upper limit! If you choose 15km you will see quite a few shorter 'legs'. Maybe down to less than 10km.

[makman94]

Thanks for the nice words.

it wasn't 'nice words' ! it is my truth :up:



Do you mean all the lines in the plot? It's a method I picked up in some post here (don't remember who posted it :06:). It's just a workaround to note the time on the map. The length of the vertical lines is just the time when the sighting happened, e.g., 12.5km = sighting happened at 12:50. It's a pity that you cannot write any comments on the map directly :nope:


yes , i meant these lines ....
so,...there are there for showing the...time? :o
You, just, 'saved' me from a ....headache !

good luck with your project !

[h.sie]

but what happens with savegames when changing the RND file?

this (and laziness) is the main reason I try to keep all in one single file.

[LGN1]

Hi,

@makman: It wasn't meant ironically or anything else. I really appreciate your comment. Thanks again :salute:

@h.sie: I guess there is a high chance that you will get a CTD. Personally, I just play a single campaign and don't go back to save games from previous patrols so it's quite easy for me to avoid this. However, for players who run several campaigns at different times in the war in parallel it is problematic. They need a good book-keeping to know what RND layer belongs to what campaign. Unfortunately, there is no other solution in SH3 (one reason to move to SH4).

For me personally it's worth the trouble and those with strong enough machine can get a decent zz pattern with a 50MB file, I guess.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

what I mean is the situation when my campaign lasts for a long time. Let's say it begins in 1941. So I have to load the 1941 RND file.
Not lets say I survive 3 years in the same campaign. During this campaign I have to alter the RND file to the 1944 one, which I think could be problematic.

Maybe I am too pessimistic.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I don't think that's a problem if you do it in port. BTW, the same problem is present if people use the Black Sea campaign, Med campaign, Indian Ocean campaign,... from GWX.

In addition, I have changed the campaign layers already several times during a career and never had any problems (starting in the Atlantic going to the Med,...). I think it's only problematic if the save game was created from a different campaign layer (maybe also if you add/remove ships during a career (although I never had a problem with this, too)). What do you think might be carried over from an older patrol to a new one except of tonnage, renown, crew status, ships sunk :06:

Anyway, I am confident to be able to create an RND layer of about 30-40MB with good zz patterns. As your tests indicate the loading time will not increase (that much?) and memory resources might also be acceptable. It might be an option for those with better machines.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

ok, maybe my thoughts about savegames are wrong. Your arguments sound plausible for me.

Thanks, no need to make that all-containing RND layer (for me), because I already did that. I restricted on the Atlantic/Med theatre, choose 20km zz pattern length. ColumnNo: 1-2. Rest default. Result is a 48MB file which can easily and quickly be loaded. I don't know if that big RND file boosts the chance for a CTD during gameplay. I'll see. And maybe the 4GB patch helps here?

My personal SH3 editition now is almost completed.

h.sie

[h.sie]

in this context it would be desireable to have a nav-map mod with restricted information (shows convoys/group but not single ships). in the higher zoom levels the map shows groups instead of single ships. this could be a starting point. OLC did something similar, I think....

[LGN1]

Hi,

in this context it would be desireable to have a nav-map mod with restricted information (shows convoys/group but not single ships). in the higher zoom levels the map shows groups instead of single ships. this could be a starting point. OLC did something similar, I think....

There are quite a few different map mods available. I use my own:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1179

The main difference of this mod from the other mods, as far as I know, is that you have a quite detailed view on the attack map. However, since you cannot plot on the attack map, this does not spoil the manual targeting. It also uses different symbols for groups and single ships.

I have uploaded a new version of the zigzag script and campaign layers for the stock GWX campaign area and the whole war. The size of the layer is around 35MB. The new script allows you to choose a probability that a unit has a zz pattern. The loading time increases on my old rig from 4:40 to 5 minutes (for comparison the waterstream mod increases the loading time by almost 2 min. on my machine :o).

The GWX RND layer has roughly 120 escorted, one-column units, 161 more-column units, and 1204 unescorted, one-column units in the speed range up to 15kn. Adding zz patterns to the escorted one-column and more-column units is thus no problem. The main load comes from the unescorted ships (which anyway do not gain much by zigzagging).

In the included layers the unescorted units do not start to zigzag at the beginning of the war, but some months later. In addition, I have used the new option in the script to have these units only zz with a certain probability (depending on their speed). In other words, escorted ships always zigzag, but unescorted units may or may not zz.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

you have a PM.

That new option sounds good, but it is statical, that means Unit XYZ always zigzags or not.

I don't know much about waypoints. But as far as I know it is possible to plan different routes for a unit. Let's say from Waypoint xy there are 2 different routes to go. Route A with a probability of 50 % and Route B also 50%. Wouldn't it be a good idea to make Route A a non-ZZ route and Route 2 a ZZ route. Every time a unit is spawned, a new randomization occurs.

Greetings,
h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

Hi LGN1,

you have a PM.

That new option sounds good, but it is statical, that means Unit XYZ always zigzags or not.

I don't know much about waypoints. But as far as I know it is possible to plan different routes for a unit. Let's say from Waypoint xy there are 2 different routes to go. Route A with a probability of 50 % and Route B also 50%. Wouldn't it be a good idea to make Route A a non-ZZ route and Route 2 a ZZ route. Every time a unit is spawned, a new randomization occurs.

Greetings,
h.sie

Replied :salute:

In principle one could also have the same units zz between some waypoints and sail straight between others. Don't know which way is better. At the moment I anyway use a quite high probability. I guess it would be difficult for a single player to recognize a difference.

There is a loop feature that allows the ships to sail directly to some other waypoint (in a straight line). I have disabled this feature for the zzing units because it becomes a book-keeping nightmare (because all the waypoints are renumbered) and I don't know what the advantage would be (zz pattern changes randomly anyway). Again, I guess a single player would never find out any difference. In addition, you do not gain anything with respect to file size. So, as long as I don't see any big advantage of the loop-feature I don't intend to do all the work to enable it. It just doesn't seem worthwhile for me.

Cheers, LGN1

[Obltn Strand]

I'm still bit amazed by this mod. It opens a whole new game. Before your mod it was enough just to lie in wait until straight sailing ship comes to shooting area. Now I actually have to observe them longer, plot their courses, wait for night fall etc. It takes time.

Don't worry you'll get your feedback. I just gather some experience with it first.

[LGN1]

Hi Obltn Strand,

I'm glad you like it! Any feedback about the ZZ patterns?

Meanwhile I have done several patrols with the ZZ patterns. No problems encountered so far. What I like more and more is the inaccuracy of the radio contact's course. Now you have to guess the true course of a radio contact (where the contact might be going, to which port,...)

Here are more examples of hunting convoys (note the length of the chase. In one case it took me almost 150km until I could sink the first ship (in 1943 with escorts carrying radar). When I positioned myself ahead of the convoy it made a ZZ and I had to crawl away, do an end-around, and position myself again. All the time receiving radar warnings :88)).

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7382/hunt1y.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/hunt1y.jpg/)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6509/hunt2i.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/i/hunt2i.jpg/)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5121/hunt3.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/hunt3.jpg/)

[Volk2]

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting

[Obltn Strand]

Hi Obltn Strand,

I'm glad you like it! Any feedback about the ZZ patterns?

Meanwhile I have done several patrols with the ZZ patterns. No problems encountered so far. What I like more and more is the inaccuracy of the radio contact's course. Now you have to guess the true course of a radio contact (where the contact might be going, to which port,...)


I never have done so comprehensive mapping of target ships.

As what comes to radio contacts I agree. Much more difficult to intercept. Keeps me quessing and about half of those actually escape.

Single ships usually turn once or twice before I have reached to a good firing range. Perhaps a turn per per hour. Rarely enough to seriously affect to their eventual demise. Lone ship travelling less than say 16kts, if spotted, is sunk anyway. However near patrolled coastlines when they suddenly turn away and MTB or some other patrol craft appears in horizon some ships have managed to escape.

Convoys become more difficult. As they turn towards me escorts do the same. This has more than often ruined a good attack position.

I count this mod among those that I don't sail without. Thanks man.

What happens if I shorten distance between turns?

[Sailor Steve]

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting
Looks like the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod from FLB_Sale.

[LGN1]

What's this gui on the screenshots? It looks interesting

Looks like the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod from FLB_Sale.

The GUI is a private combination of several mods among others the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod. The notepad down in the right corner informs you if you have new orders or malfunctions (via SH3 Commander).

I never have done so comprehensive mapping of target ships.

As what comes to radio contacts I agree. Much more difficult to intercept. Keeps me quessing and about half of those actually escape.

Single ships usually turn once or twice before I have reached to a good firing range. Perhaps a turn per per hour. Rarely enough to seriously affect to their eventual demise. Lone ship travelling less than say 16kts, if spotted, is sunk anyway. However near patrolled coastlines when they suddenly turn away and MTB or some other patrol craft appears in horizon some ships have managed to escape.

Convoys become more difficult. As they turn towards me escorts do the same. This has more than often ruined a good attack position.

I count this mod among those that I don't sail without. Thanks man.

What happens if I shorten distance between turns?

Thanks for the feedback! I agree that ships without escorts (and speed below your submerged speed) do not gain much by zigzagging.

However, with escorts the situation is considerably more difficult (if you do manual targeting). I had to do the comprehensive mapping when I was hunting 2 or 3 ships escorted by a radar-equipped escort. I submerged several times for an attack, but it was always spoiled. Then I had to wait until the distance was large enough again to surface and over-take them again... all the time the ships came closer and closer to their destination.

Shortening the distance between turns should be possible, but you should be aware of the following:

1. You can quickly overload the campaign layers with too many waypoints.

2. The shorter the legs, the closer the ships remain to their main course. As a consequence, you might get into a good firing position many times with just positioning yourself on the main course line.

3. I don't know how serious it is, but convoys might get too confused by too close waypoints. They need a longer time to get their correct formation after each waypoint.

The main core of units in the campaign layer consists of unescorted ships. If you do not want them to zigzag, you can shorten the distances for the others considerably. For myself I keep some unescorted ships zigzagging because

a) it takes a bit longer to sink them and thus, chances are higher that something goes wrong.

b) catching radio contacts of single ships is more involved. I really like guessing to which harbor a ship might travel.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: I have been working on a version for NYGM. If any NYGM player would like to test it and/or has some special wishes, please let me know.

[Obltn Strand]

To LGN1

Does Campaign Layer with Zigzag means ships will zigzag everywhere and every time?

My computer can handle it, so it saves me some trouble of changing mods as time progreses.

[LGN1]

Hi Obltn Strand,

if you mean the folder Stock GWX RND Campaign Layer with Zigzag in the mod, you are right. Ships zigzag everywhere (except Black Sea & Indian Ocean). The detailed settings are:

- All escorted, 1-column groups with speed 4-15kn (all the time)
- All convoys with 2-5 columns with speed 4-15kn (all the time)

- Unescorted 1-column groups with speed 6-13kn (fast) have a zigzag probability of 80% in the period 01.1940-10.1944 (probability = 0 else)
- Unescorted 1-column groups with speed 4-5kn (slow) have a zigzag probability of 50% in the period 01.1940-08.1944 (probability = 0 else)

The 'leg distance' also differs for these groups.

If you would like to have other settings, just let me know and I will try to create a campaign layer with these.

Cheers, LGN1

[Obltn Strand]

If you would like to have other settings, just let me know and I will try to create a campaign layer with these.

Cheers, LGN1

All fine. Thanks for clarification.

[LGN1]

Hi,

has anyone some more feedback about the zigzag patterns? I'm asking because due to a recent request I want to create/finish a version for NYGM (Thanks a lot to Stiebler for granting permission!). Any useful feedback would be nice for incorporating it into the NYGM version. Thanks!

Regards, LGN1

[LGN1]

Hi,

I have uploaded a version for NYGM here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3306

Thanks again to Stiebler for giving his permission :up:

As always feedback is welcomed!

Cheers, LGN1

PS: If someone is interested in a version for another mod, just let me know.

[Jaeger]

Many thanks for this! i will test it asap (wrote you a pm about this) and give feedback. i need to relearn lots of manual torpedo math, but i know where to look for the tutorials.

greetz, Jaeger

[JEuler]

Hi LGN1,

I'm currently on extended shore leave.Earlier I used your zigzag mod with GWX 3,and it worked perfectly,
didn't noticed anything weird,no CTDs,it made the game much more interesting.It is on my must have mod list!

[LGN1]

Hi LGN1,

I'm currently on extended shore leave.Earlier I used your zigzag mod with GWX 3,and it worked perfectly,
didn't noticed anything weird,no CTDs,it made the game much more interesting.It is on my must have mod list!

Hi JEuler,

thanks for your feedback :up:

I'm glad that you like it and it's on your must-have mod list!

Cheers, LGN1

[Dani]

@LGN1

If I play the stock GWX campaing and then activate your Stock GWX RND Campaign Layer with Zigzag I will have, as you sad before, zigzag everywhere (except Black Sea & Indian Ocean).

But what happens if I activate GWX Merged Campaing?
Will this overwhright your mod or should I change the way what first to activate?
Can you please explain?

Dani

[LGN1]

@LGN1

If I play the stock GWX campaing and then activate your Stock GWX RND Campaign Layer with Zigzag I will have, as you sad before, zigzag everywhere (except Black Sea & Indian Ocean).

But what happens if I activate GWX Merged Campaing?
Will this overwhright your mod or should I change the way what first to activate?
Can you please explain?

Dani

Hi Dani,

what you write about the stock campaign is true.

If you use the Merged Campaign it depends what you activate first. If you activate the zigzag campaign file and then the Merged Campaign, you will loose the zigzagging. If you do it the other way round, you will loose the Merged Campaign rnd layer (i.e., no random traffic in the Indian Ocean and Black Sea).

I did not release a version for the Merged Campaign because the file size is already large enough and my feeling is that there is no big interest in such a version. To cut a long story short, I don't recommend using the stock zigzag layer with the Merged Campaign.

Cheers, LGN1

[LGN1]

For all NYGM users:

I have updated the file for NYGM in order to incorporate the changes made by Stiebler in his recently released NYGM version 3.5A.

Link:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3306

[Dani]

Thank you for the answer.:salute:

[Jaeger]

Hi LGN1,

i managed to play some patrols with nygm and your script activated. m.e.p.3 and magui 3.4 widescreen are also activated. in my point of view, this is a wonderful combination. Your campaign layer works fine so far, a brilliant addition. normally, i shadow single merchants in a distance of about 10 km (because i need to identify it first.). i take range measures 3 times an hour and i can observe all the course changes without problems. very nice, runs really fine! thanks for this!!!

[Jaeger]

will there be a version for nygm 3.6a? Or is this incorporated yet?

[LGN1]

Hi Jaeger,

I'm glad that you like and enjoy it :up:

Concerning a new version for NYGM 3.6a: a new version can be downloaded in the download section.

Regards, LGN1

[Jaeger]

very nice lgn1, but i think you should ask him to incorporate this into his supermod. everybody who uses nygm should also use your zigzag, it is a must have concerning realism. and nygms first goal is realism.

[LGN1]

Hi,

I have taken a closer look at the changes in the new NYGM file. Since one of the fixes of version 3.6A is embedded in the rnd file (spawning probability of the Hurricane around the British Isles), I have updated the zigzag version and uploaded it here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3306

I have also contacted Stiebler. It is safe to use the old version. Thus, players who are not disturbed by the strong air activity around the British Isles can continue using the previous version.

Regards, LGN1

[LGN1]

Hi,

the current version can be also used with NYGM 3.6F (I have only updated the readme). Thanks to Stiebler for letting me know this.

Cheers, LGN1