[REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10

[John Channing]

The purpose of this thread is to show how to use the modified Radar and TDC created by Nisgeis to establish a contact's position, course and track, and to enter a solution into the TDC using only Radar.

First up: Establishing the contact's initial position, course and track.

[John Channing]

Reserved.

[John Channing]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=343&pictureid=2557

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http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=343&pictureid=2548

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http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=343&pictureid=2546

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=343&pictureid=2545

[John Channing]

OK... thanks for waiting!

Here is part two. In this tutorial we will pick up where the last one left off. We are now ready to put a solution into the TDC.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2753

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[John Channing]

Part 2...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2735

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http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2720



Because the course setting function does not really explain well in pictures I have uploaded a brief video showing a two step process for getting the contact's course onto the TDC.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2744

With practice you can do it in one step, but to start I used 2.

Good Hunting!

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Looks good :yeah:. Could it be condensed a bit with more than one image per post? You'll never fit the rest of it in like that :).

[clayp]

How do you get those views looking down on the radar?:hmmm:

[John Channing]

Using TMO 1.5 all you have to do is left click anywhere except a radar screen and use your mouse to move you view around. Not sure if this works the same is later versions of TMO, but I woul be suprosed if it didn't.

JCC

[clayp]

I have an earlier TMO and when I try to activate the mod I get these conflicts...
"NSS_Gato_CT.dat" has already been altered by the "RFB_v1.4S" mod.
"NSS_Gato_CT.sim" has already been altered by the "RFB_v1.4S" mod.
"Cameras.dat" has already been altered by the "Clayp's Optics for RFB 1.4" mod.
"Sensors_sub_US.sim" has already been altered by the "RFB_v1.4S" mod.
"menu_1024_768.ini" has already been altered by the "Clayp's Optics for RFB 1.4" mod.
"Common_TDC_Gauges_01.dds" has already been altered by the "RFB_v1.4S" mod.

[John Channing]

Most of the mods you are using are for RFB, not TMO. Try putting it in and see what happens. The worst thing that can happen is that it screws something up, and then you can just take it back out again.

It's really worth it!

JCC

[razark]

The purpose of this thread is to show how to use the modified Radar and TDC created by Nisgeis to establish a contact's position, course and track, and to enter a solution into the TDC using only Radar.
Thank you very much for this. I just installed this mod, as my previous career just ended due to a lucky depth charge and frantic gun battle. I sunk one of the escorts, but there other one got me.

Now I'll have to learn this radar stuff.

[AVGWarhawk]

Looks good :yeah:. Could it be condensed a bit with more than one image per post? You'll never fit the rest of it in like that :).

Easy to follow. I got it on the first reading. Very very cool mod. Adds a lot! :up:

[John Channing]

I kinda screwed up the thread a bit (by putting all of the slides on seperate posts and then deleting them.... such a n00b) so I am glad you were able to follow it.

Wait until you see how cool the TDC is. When you get a working solution in it and are able to follw it as it develops while the contact is still miles away it unbeatable.

Ever since I read "Shinano: The Sinking of Japan's Secret Supership" by Joseph Enright (captain of the USS Archer-fish) I have wantd to do this. Now I can!

And so can you!

JCC

[Munchausen]

:up: Looks really good. Hope you don't condense the TDC part ... 'cause, so far, I'm following along quite well. Each picture is worth at least a thousand words.

[John Channing]

If anything it will be a little more in-depth. But it is going to take a little while to get it done correctly.

Please be patient.

JCC

[clayp]

Most of the mods you are using are for RFB, not TMO. Try putting it in and see what happens. The worst thing that can happen is that it screws something up, and then you can just take it back out again.

It's really worth it!

JCC

I put it in and the game wouldnt start...

[sergei]

Very nice work JC, thanks for this.
It's really helped me out.

I was really struggling with getting this to work. At first I assumed it just didn't work properly in TMO 2.0.

No matter what I did, I couldn't seem to get the range triangle to show up.

Now I realise I was missing out a vitally important step.
You have to switch the radar into expanded mode to take your range reading. :oops:
The mod works just fine in TMO 2.0. Classic case of operator error. :DL

Tried it out today, tracking an incoming target in light fog.
By the time he was within view I had his course pretty much nailed, and was submerged about 1500 yards off his track, just waiting.

Incredibly satisfying.

[Gorshkov]

All it does is to give you accurate target's course estimation at distances beyond active sonar and periscope/stadimeter range. Stock radar cannot do this. This is very useful because you can get initial fire position sailing surfaced and not being spotted by enemy ships. Later you can submerge to carry out your attack. Possibly Japs did not have RWRs at that time which made American radars so deadly asset.

PS. Does this mod work with RFB 2.0?

[sergei]

PS. Does this mod work with RFB 2.0?

I'd be inclined to ask this question in the Release Thread
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170944

[Gorshkov]

Yeah, I have already looked at this thread. This mod probably does not work with RFB. What a pity...:-?

[Nisgeis]

PS. Does this mod work with RFB 2.0?

I don't know, I've never tried it. Certainly there is no version specifically for RFB yet and if the version out now did work with RFB, you'd lose any interior changes to the sub.

[Bubblehead1980]

All it does is to give you accurate target's course estimation at distances beyond active sonar and periscope/stadimeter range. Stock radar cannot do this. This is very useful because you can get initial fire position sailing surfaced and not being spotted by enemy ships. Later you can submerge to carry out your attack. Possibly Japs did not have RWRs at that time which made American radars so deadly asset.

PS. Does this mod work with RFB 2.0?

Exactly and as far as I can tell, Japanese never had RWR

[I'm goin' down]

I activated this mod last. The button on the sonar dial is missing. When I delete the mod, it reappears.

I cannot drag the triangle up or down.

I get a reading in yds., nm's, but nothing on the spaces below.

I have a few mods activated but not many. I play tmo2.0/rsrdc.

[John Channing]

1) Not sure what button you are refering to.

2) You don't actually drag the triangle. When you place your cursor on the A-Scope screen and hold the left mouse button down, the radar screen moves in the direction you move your mouse, the triangle stays stationary. Can you move the screen using the dial on the left?

3) The White numbers are the radar range according to where you set the triangle. The green numbers won't activate until you have a solution entered into the TDC. That's the next lesson.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

the sonar man yells out bearing when you have sonar check for contacts. When the sonar is looked on the bearing, you click the button and the sonarman yells merchant at x degrees. I have no button as it has disappeared when I use the Radar Range mod.

[Nisgeis]

I activated this mod last. The button on the sonar dial is missing. When I delete the mod, it reappears.

For some reason two of the sonar controls are part of the radar stack, so when the radar got moved to the right the controls did too. I didn't spot it, because I wasn't expecting it. The switches are still there, just out of place. Using the toolbar commands still works. Will be updated soon (TM).

[I'm goin' down]

I just figured that out on a Gar. I stopped using the Gato until I figure this mod out.

[I'm goin' down]

I cannot find the radar range bearing indicator. What screen is it located on?

[Nisgeis]

It's mounted more or less directly above the range unit - look up in the 'A' Scope view (the green screen) and it's on the pressure hull.

[I'm goin' down]

I would not have thought to look up there. I am now using a Gar. It is 6/41 and your mod has no triangle. Where did it go? Do you have any idea why it disappeared? Also, I will probably have to wait for Channing to get further in his tutorial to understand all of the mods aspects.

[Nisgeis]

The triangle only shows up if you are in expanded sweep mode (precision mode). If you can see the range unit (e.g. it's activated) then switch through the ranges until you get the triangles back.

[Patchman123]

Shouldn't the position keeper have to work automatically instead of you manually turning it on?

The American TDC added the feature of being able to automatically track the ship.

We should be able to track the ship automatically by having the periscope locked on to it.

What about having the radar range actually work with the TDC? I also want the XO to track the target as well from the periscope.

What about the PK TDC window in the periscope station? What are you going to do about that?

The TDC should just start automatically working if you're locked on the ship in real time. All the info was provided in real time to the TDC.
Did the actual TDC work like that?


Is it possible to have the Position Keeper to automatically work and switch on when the ship is locked in the periscope? This would be more liked how realistically the TDC worked in real life.

The PK worked when a ship was tracked in the periscope. The AOB was put in to the TDC by clicking on the TDC window.

There should be a TDC station from the Toolbar in Silent Hunter IV. It would be nice to have a separate TDC station in the sub in the coning tower. You could walk to the TDC station and manually calculate it.

[John Channing]

There are a lot of things the TDC should do, but Nisgeis is limited by what the game is designed to do.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Shouldn't the position keeper have to work automatically instead of you manually turning it on?

The real PK was turn on and offable for easy control.

The American TDC added the feature of being able to automatically track the ship.

There was no automatic tracking. What it could do was forecast the position of a ship based on the data entered into it.

We should be able to track the ship automatically by having the periscope locked on to it.

If you want to do that, you can turn on automatic targetting. It's not realistic in any way, but it will work and will populate the TDC with the correct data.

What about having the radar range actually work with the TDC? I also want the XO to track the target as well from the periscope.

What do you mean by 'actually work'? You can send the radar range to the TDC via the stadimeter.

What about the PK TDC window in the periscope station? What are you going to do about that?

Er, nothing.

The TDC should just start automatically working if you're locked on the ship in real time. All the info was provided in real time to the TDC.

If you want that, then turn on automatic targetting and all the current target data will be fed to the TDC, regardless of whether the PK is on or not.

Did the actual TDC work like that?

No, historically, the info was not provided to the TDC in real time, The best that happened was the information was presented to the TDC operator, but nothing was ever entered automatically - that was done by the TDC operator. This was only in the Mark 4, which had a stack between the PK and sound bearing converter stack and the Gyro Angle Solver Stack.

[John Channing]

I would not have thought to look up there. I am now using a Gar. It is 6/41 and your mod has no triangle. Where did it go? Do you have any idea why it disappeared? Also, I will probably have to wait for Channing to get further in his tutorial to understand all of the mods aspects.

I don't believe it will work in a Gar class. As far as I understand it it should only work in Balao and Gato.

Nisgeis?

JCC

[Nisgeis]

I've no idea what interior the Gar uses... depends on what supermod you use. If you can see the range unit, the mod will work, if you can't it won't.

[Patchman123]

The real PK was turn on and offable for easy control.



There was no automatic tracking. What it could do was forecast the position of a ship based on the data entered into it.



If you want to do that, you can turn on automatic targetting. It's not realistic in any way, but it will work and will populate the TDC with the correct data.



What do you mean by 'actually work'? You can send the radar range to the TDC via the stadimeter.



Er, nothing.



If you want that, then turn on automatic targetting and all the current target data will be fed to the TDC, regardless of whether the PK is on or not.



No, historically, the info was not provided to the TDC in real time, The best that happened was the information was presented to the TDC operator, but nothing was ever entered automatically - that was done by the TDC operator. This was only in the Mark 4, which had a stack between the PK and sound bearing converter stack and the Gyro Angle Solver Stack.



The Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) was an early electromechanical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromechanical) analog computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer) used for torpedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo) fire-control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system) on American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Navy) submarines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine) during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) (see Figure 1). Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy#1914.E2.80.931945), Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine), and Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Navy) also developed automated torpedo fire control equipment, but none were as advanced as US Navy's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Navy) TDC.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer#cite_note-JapanGermany-0) These nations all developed torpedo fire control computers for calculating torpedo courses to intercept targets, but the TDC added the ability to automatically track the target. The target tracking capabilities of the TDC were unique for submarines during World War II and set the standard for submarine torpedo fire control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system) at that time.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer#cite_note-computermuseum-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer#cite_note-OtherTrackers-2)

This is what Wikipedia says.


Are you going to add a Mark IV TDC or did they even exist in World War II? It would be more accurate to add a Mark IV TDC in case we play campaigns later on in the war like 1944-1945 against the Japanese merchant ships.

[Nisgeis]

Wikipedia is wrong. There was no automatic tracking, as that suggests that the TDC could somehow get the information on the target and generate a tracking solution of its own. The tracking was done by the tracking party, who was a group of guys who plotted the data furnished to them by the radar periscope and sonar stations. The course and speed were worked out and then input into the TDC. The TDC from then on could be used to compare the generated position of the ship to the actual position of the ship and from that work out if the target was faster, or was on a different course or if it has perfromed a zig.

There are no plans to put in a Mark 4 complete, but elements of it are in the mod already, e.g. radar bearing and sonar bearing indicators and repeaters for the generated bearing and range at the radar station for error checking. The Mark 4 was put into later boats (like the Tench class) and some of the earlier mark 3s were upgraded but some were not. It depended on the boat. The Mark 3 TDC could only track a target to a range of 8,000 yards and a Mark 4 could track out to 40,000 yards.

[I'm goin' down]

I had it backwards. I thought the ships not to use were Gatos and Balaos.

re Patchman123--Wikipedia for a citaition for something this technical seems a stretch, but it was creative regradless.:haha:

[Gorshkov]

Probably word "tracking" is wrongly understood here!

Actually tracking means some device can observe target constantly or periodically via radio waves, acoustic waves, thermal signature etc. and essentially "plot" its course (now in computer memory) based on such data and sometimes ALSO thanks to some calculations/predictions. Look at TWS (track-while-scan) radar mode present in nowadays fighter radars as a very good illustration.

TDC was an electromechanical analog computer which was fed manually by the crew with target's course, AOB and range. Later it computed target's future locations assuming that target will be constantly moving with the same previously entered course and speed. However TDC did not have any direct link to automatic sensors observing target all the time and thus it could not correct its estimations when target suddenly changed its course for instance. Yet TDC was very helpful during preparation to attack ecause human tracking party could easily detect abrupt target's maneuvers and react appropriately.

I think the latter situation is correctly presented in SH4 even without this mod. However stock TDC does not have any connection to radar or more precisely - human player cannot read exact data from radar and feed TDC with them.

Moreover you can look at German U-boat's TDC (or whatever it was named): in SH4 this device can also predict target's location but it is indicated only by moving torpedo path according to its course without "tracking" target itself!

[Nisgeis]

Exactly Gorshkov. The TDC was much more advanced than depicted in SH4. For example time could be wound forwards and back, to allow time to be reset and a new course and speed to be put in and then the TDC would be wound forward to the last recorded position to see if that matched. Also, when closest a fast target you could wind the TDC forward to see at what point (timewise and position wise) you would be closest to the target, That allowed you to get ready and to know when your best firing point was coming up.

[Gorshkov]

Of course but I am not sure if full modeling of Mk-III TDC would be UBI's best option. First, vast majority of players would find handling of such TDC too difficult. Second, exact TDC design and its theoretical background was not unveiled even until now due to national security reasons if Wikipedia's article is right. Well, why to help possible enemies to master torpedo targeting?

However developers should have allowed modders like you to recreate full TDC by leaving needed features in the game code.

[Nisgeis]

The TDC manuals have been available for a long time now, since before SH4 was made. The most important thing that hasn't been simulated in the TDC is the updating of the bearing. In the real TDC if you wind up the bearing the AoB and range changes, as if the target had moved along its course. In the simulated TDC the range styays the same and the AoB stays the same, so effectively when you update the bearing you have to enter a range again and if the course was right, you just made it go wrong and then have to re-enter that again, which isn't easy with the stock AoB only dial entry. It all makes for very high workload last minute adjustments and actually makes the TDC less useful than it was in reality.

[Gorshkov]

This is another story! If UBI had implemented this feature according to your description above it would have made player's life easier. I meant rather Position Keeper lacking features and crappy access to radar data discussed earlier.

BTW - what do you know about clicking two times on this red mark present on dial entry? This was once mentioned as necessary in one of Dick O'Kane's targeting tutorials.

[Nisgeis]

BTW - what do you know about clicking two times on this red mark present on dial entry? This was once mentioned as necessary in one of Dick O'Kane's targeting tutorials.

It's a problem when the PK is off. If the PK is on, then the target data is calculated correctly. If the PK is off, then you need to send the data twice to get the TDC to display the correct gyro angle. If the PK is on, it's not an issue. I don't know if it's just a display problem, or whether the wrong gyro angle is passed to the torpedo. In either case, if you use the TDC with the PK on, then you don't ever have that problem.

[ichso]

Next step in the tutorial: skip the realtime updated submarine-cursor on the navmap and use a blank spot on the map instead. Then the fun begins when tracking your own position while getting radar bearings.

Basically: mark your own position on the map, take a radar reading and plot it from there. Then just time the radar readouts with some fixed intervals in which you now how far you will have traveled and so on. Also time your course and speed changes accordingly.

By ignoring the magical sub-cursor, everything gets less precise. But it also gets more fun and 'real' and rewarding in contrast to clean and a little bit more generic. :yeah:

[Gorshkov]

Thanks for explanations Nisgels! Did all US torpedoes of that era have built-in gyros?

[Nisgeis]

Thanks for explanations Nisgels! Did all US torpedoes of that era have built-in gyros?

All torpedoes have built in gyros. That's the only way they can stay on course. British mk.8 torpedoes had gyros, but they could not be given a gyro angle order, as they were all straight shooters, e.g. you had to manouever the boat to a zero gyro angle shot. Having a gyro and being able to give the torpedo a course change after launch are seperate things. Most US torpedoes had gyro angle orders, but I'm not sure about the Mk. 27 cutie. In the game it also seems to be modelled a bit strangely. Certainly the pre war mk. 10 torpedoes had gyro angle orders and so did the contemporray Mk.14s and subsequent marks. Not sure about the Mk. 27. It was a swim out weapon, designed to home on sound, so I'm not sure if it was a straight fire or directed fire weapon. Anyone know?

[Gorshkov]

****! I meant gyro-angle preset feature of course! :oops:

So American and German torpedoes had it from the war's beginning but British, Russian and Italian fishes had not. I am not sure about Japanese and French torps. Anyway this was very helpful feature.

[I'm goin' down]

I posted my attempt to plot and find target speed in Nisgeis' thread with re the 3D TDC. I assume Mr. Channing upcoming post will resolve some of the issues I am having, as his initial tutorial seems well presented. In the meantime I am giving it a try by doing what I think will work, but so far I have failed.

[John Channing]

You are headed in the right direction... just a little guidance needed.

I hope to get part 2 up in a day or so.

JCC

[Roger Dodger]

You are headed in the right direction... just a little guidance needed.

I hope to get part 2 up in a day or so.

JCC

Part 1 is a real boon to us visual learners. Nicely done. You should be writing text books for high school. (That's a compliment)


God Bless Electric Boat

[John Channing]

Thanks.

Part 2 is going a lot slower than I hoped because of the complxity of the process . Hopefully it will be worth the wait.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Thanks.

Part 2 is going a lot slower than I hoped because of the complxity of the process . Hopefully it will be worth the wait.

JCC

Oh, come on! It is a piece of cake. If you would stop shooting skeet off the stern in the morning and hitting golf balls off the bow each afternoon, you would have it done in no time!!

[John Channing]

Hee hee hee...

In fact, it's so complex, that I spelled "complex" wrong.

But seriously, I have thought I was close a couple of times but when I went back over it and saw that what I had done I realized that it would have made things even more confusing. Plus I sent the last version to Nisgeis and he rightly pointed out a number of places where I had screwed it up and hadn't even noticed (makes me wonder how I hit the target in the first place).

Right now I am going to try to take what I have and, using my LeeT photoshop skills, edit it down to something workable/understandable. Either that or start again from scratch.

Trust me, I am as anxious to get this done as anyone. I keep using the same mission over and over again for this, and I really want to get out on an actual patrol and put it all to the test.

Soon!

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

This is an EXTREMELY complex mod. I have been posting like crazy, in part, to help you and nisgeis deal with issues that I have spotted. Nisgeis built this device from the grourd up. That is good, but he may not be able to step back and be able to see the issues that confront those with less knowledge.

Some basic explanations are probably in order. They include what the TDC does and does not do. How Aob fits into the equation after sending range and bearing to the TDC. The reason you activate the PK. Issues re lead angle (or why no lead angle is needed), a comparison to the other attack methods, etc. Have fun.

[John Channing]

Some of these are covered, some not.

What I hoped to do is construct a step-by-step process tutorial that is easy to follow. Once it's gets up and you go through it we can get into clarifications where necessary.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

map contacts disabled. I stumbled upon a huge convoy/task force. I could not get a handle on its course, as my readings were inconsistent. It is hard to focus bearings on one of many ships. After 2 hours, I gave up. Reason, I cut myself a break and assumed it was the American fleet.:D There is another issue for you to play with.

[John Channing]

Might have to wait a bit. I am kinda anxious to go out on a War Patrol and really try this stuff out. Plus ComSubPac wants to send me through the La Pérouse Straits.

Sounds like fun!



Just waiting on Nisgeis' sign-off and part two will be up!



JCC

[sharkbit]

map contacts disabled. I stumbled upon a huge convoy/task force. I could not get a handle on its course, as my readings were inconsistent. It is hard to focus bearings on one of many ships. After 2 hours, I gave up. Reason, I cut myself a break and assumed it was the American fleet.:D There is another issue for you to play with.

If I can make a suggestion:
A lot of times when I get stuck or want to try out different things without having to worry about being spotted by escorts/targets or I don't want to deal with weather, I open up the mission editor and make a training miision by sticking one or two, or a whole bunch of ships if I need to, and set the ships at a known course and speed and shoot practice approaches on them. You don't have to worry about stealth or airplanes ruining your approach or anything like that. You can concentrate on whatever it is you want to try out.
This mod sounds like an ideal time to do that until you get the hang of using it.

Now you have two important pieces of information and you can practice plotting using this mod and compare your plotting to what the targets are already doing. You do not have to worry about anything else.

I'm sure that whenever I get going again with SH4, I will be using this mod and probably making a training mission or two.

:)

[John Channing]

Updated: July 31/10

Now with more TDC Goodness. See first page.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Because the course setting function does not really explain well in pictures I have uploaded a brief video showing a two step process for getting the contact's course onto the TDC.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2744

With practice you can do it in one step, but to start I used 2.

It's not really that difficult to use one then the other is it? That's one of the easier things to do in the mod :DL. The video is great at explaining entering target course, here it is with a link for those who are cut and paste challenged:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2744

Thanks for putting all that together JCC. :yeah::ping:.

[I'm goin' down]

they may have said you whacko, but no one ever said you were stupid. :D
Good idea. When Channing completes the tutorial, maybe he will include a download for a practice mission with all kinds of targets. Hint, Hint. Meanwhile I will set one up.

[I'm goin' down]

No wonder I did not know what I was doing. I was doing it wrong. I read the new portion of the tutorial. This far more complex that I thought. Good job Mr. Channing!!:up::salute::woot:

[razark]

Updated: July 31/10

Now with more TDC Goodness. See first page.

JCC

Very nice stuff. I've downloaded the whole mess of pictures so I can flip through them.

[John Channing]

I am trying to upload the practice mission I used along with part 2 in Powerpoint format.

If this bulletin board lets me!



AHA! Success.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2745

Good hunting.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

When Channing completes the tutorial, maybe he will include a download for a practice mission with all kinds of targets. Hint, Hint.

Here's a link to a set of training missions for the radar and one for the TDC. The TDC training mission is the same target as depicted in the TDC tutorial for those that want to follow along:

Link:

Radar and TDC training missions v1.01 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1952)

No wonder I did not know what I was doing. I was doing it wrong.

I'm sure someone mentioned something along those lines before :).

[Nisgeis]

I am trying to upload the practice mission I used along with part 2 in Powerpoint format.

If this bulletin board lets me!

I updated the missions so that they now work from Sub School directly, rather than having to mess around with moving it about. I take it that's the mission I sent you? If so, it's included in the training mission pack link I just posted and will work from sub school (I had the wrong sub selected in the missions).

[John Channing]

Pretty much the same, I just moved the Tanker further out so I would have more time to screw things up!

:D

Now that I think of it I may have changed the Sub's position too. Anyhoo.. the more practice missions the better!

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Cancel all my appointments for the next two weeks. We have some work to do. Get the crew back from I&I. Most of them are at the Royal Hawaiian or at Daisy's House of Women. We set sail in two hours hours. Tell the men that there is a revolutionary new piece of sonar equipment on board, and that we aren't coming back until be learn how to use it. The manual was hand delivered by the Admiral's personal courier.

Tell the medic that since we have been in port for a month, load up on the penicillan.

[John Channing]

:yeah:

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Fantastic piece of scholarly :know: work. Mind blowing actually!

[razark]

Why the step of turning off the radar?

[John Channing]

There is a bug in the game whereby if you leave the radar station it reverts from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. If you rurn the radar off before you leave when you come back and turn it back on you will be in the same position as when you left. Cuts down on having to re-acquire the contact and saves you time when you are doing your plot.

Drove me nuts until Nisgeis pointed this out to me.

JCC

[John Channing]

Fantastic piece of scholarly :know: work. Mind blowing actually!


All the credit belongs to Nisgeis. I just followed along in his wake. Without his coaching and feedback I would have got the whole thing wrong from go!

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

JC-you figured out before I did!

FYI. I posted a link to yours and Nisgeis' threads in the main forum. I am on practice mission no. 1.

(Tankers? Oh Tankers? Come out and playee. COME OUT AND PLAYEE! [courtesy of and adapted from the great climatic finale of the cult, gang war classic, The Warriors])

[razark]

There is a bug in the game whereby if you leave the radar station it reverts from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. If you rurn the radar off before you leave when you come back and turn it back on you will be in the same position as when you left. Cuts down on having to re-acquire the contact and saves you time when you are doing your plot.

Drove me nuts until Nisgeis pointed this out to me.

JCC
Ok, so really just a convenience thing, not something that would confuse data.

I'm playing a patrol right now. I don't have a target, because I had to dive for an airplane. I'm just having fun fiddling with the dials, setting up things, and watching them spin. Wheeeeeeeee!

[I'm goin' down]

Johnson's Corollary to Murphy's law.

The odds of the buttered side of the bread landing face down on the carpet increase in direct proportion to the cost of the rug.

Training Mission No. 1 (giggle, giggle) - Set the course on the 3D TDC... done! Send it to the TDC...Done! Set the speed ... done! Turn on the sonar PPI scope and find the target... done! Go the A scope and find the target...done! Almost there (giggle, giggle). Take range and bearing readings from the devices near the A scope...done. Go the periscope view, raise periscope and swivil it to the bearing reading...What the hell. LMAO.:haha: Its raining cats and dogs. Nisgeis must be up to his old tricks again. :har:

[arnahud2]

Hi John, what an awesome job you did with this tutorial, and many thanks for the 07/31 update, so : :yeah:

'Will spend my two weeks holidays studying and trying it in details, that will prevent Nisgeis (:up:) to personally show me the best way to avoid (my) common 600 yards and more errors in (my) firing solutions with radar...

@Nisgeis, et si vous êtes francophone ;) : merci beaucoup pour l'aide que vous m'avez si gentiment proposée, j'aprecie beaucoup la qualité de votre SAV (:salute:).

Best regards,

[sergei]

Now with more TDC Goodness.

Thanks for the updated tutorial and video JC. :up:

[John Channing]

Thanks.

If the video about entering the course doesn't make sense I have made one with step by step instructions. If anyone needs it let me know and I will upload it.

JCC

[Gerald]

Part 2...



Hope you don't mind and thanks for the compliment!




Because the course setting function does not really explain well in pictures I have uploaded a brief video showing a two step process for getting the contact's course onto the TDC.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2744

With practice you can do it in one step, but to start I used 2.

Good Hunting!

JCC :DL

[irish1958]

Thanks.

If the video about entering the course doesn't make sense I have made one with step by step instructions. If anyone needs it let me know and I will upload it.

JCC
John, I need ALL the help I can get; would you please post the link for us who are conceptually challenged (i.e., dumb):O:

[arnahud2]

Yes, i agree with Irish1958, some of us needs this video. Could you upload it, your work is greatly appreciated ?

Thanks.

[Nisgeis]

:DL

Vendor, any chance you could edit your post so you don't quote all the pics? It's a bit long :DL.

Has anyone had any success with the TDC, who hadn't previously used it?

[John Channing]

Yes, i agree with Irish1958, some of us needs this video. Could you upload it, your work is greatly appreciated ?

Thanks.

OK, guys.. here you go!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2747

JCC

[Nisgeis]

@Nisgeis, et si vous êtes francophone ;) : merci beaucoup pour l'aide que vous m'avez si gentiment proposée, j'aprecie beaucoup la qualité de votre SAV (:salute:).

I had to look up what SAV meant - not heard that before. That's what the forum is all about. Two people working together can do more than twice the work of a single person working alone. Maru-Maru, je te plumerai. :-)

[arnahud2]

Maru-Maru, je te plumerai. :-)

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

"Alouette, je te plumerai" :O:

What does SAV mean ? Really simple : when you bought something, like a car, for ex., if there any troubles with it within the guarantee period, you will have to get back your car to your seller, for maintenance and/or repairing : that's the S.A.V. (Service Après Vente)

regards

[John Channing]

La plume de ma tante est sure la tableau!

But seriously, folks...

I have to share this with you guys.

To get myself in the mood I read through the first war patrol of the USS Tang. One of the things I find captivating about these war patrol reports is the all the uncertaintity they were faced with when persuing a contact. What is it's base course? What is it's speed? Did we guess the mast height correctly. Did we identify it correctly? All of the unknows coming together that had to be solved for a sucessful prosecution. Facinating.

And that's was most Sub-sims have been missing. You see the contact on the map, you zoom over in high TC, get into a a perfect firing position, you identify the ship using built-in code and ZAP... he's dead. Fun, but it really does wear out eventually.

Until now.

This is a whole new game. After getting stoked on Cpt. O'Kane's report I continued my patrol in the Sea of Japan. The entire transit there had been uneventful with only one radar contact as I was coming through the La Pérouse Strait , but I lost it in a bad storm. I dove and got a very faint hit, but it faded out and I gave up.

Just like real life!

4 days later and now I am really being put to the test. I have four contacts, traveling in a line, zig zagging in weather that could charitably described as awful. Howling winds, heavy seas, zero visibility and I am tracking them with radar and the solution I have in the TDC. Unlike before where once you had a contact on a map you were almost guaranteed a kill, now I have no idea how this is going to turn out. In fact... I am beginnng to suspect these are sampans or fishing boats from their behaviour... but I have no idea at this point.

The echo's of Capt Richard O'Kane's patrol reports are loud and amazing. I have been tracking this contact for 2 hours and haven't used TC once. I can't! I need all the time I can get just to figure out what they are doing. It took me almost 1/2 hour just to get their speed down (a process which prior to this mod was about a four minute job). I am still not confident in their course but I am gojng with what I have for now. The zig zags are driving me crazy.

My hat is off to Nisgeis. This is the game I wanted from the day it was announced!

Now.. if I only had a Distance to Track dial...

:D

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Now.. if I only had a Distance to Track dial...

How do you know about that dial? Spies! That's on my list, I just haven't done it yet (it will go where the SBC would have been). Interestingly (or not) Range to Track was an update to the mark 3 TDC, which later had that update put on hold and was never seen in the later Mark 4.

[Urge]

OK, so I am trying to work with the XRT5 TDC Training Part 1 mission located here... E:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter Wolves of the Pacific\Data\SingleMissions\XRT5 TDC Training Part 1. I have a contact going 18 knots at a range of approx. 8550yds when the mission starts! The blurb about the mission states that it is going 10 knots and is at a range of 12,000 yds. What's up with this? Here is a list of my mods...
TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
TGT DIALS TO PK FIX - TMO
3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02
Gramophone_Three

Help, all of a sudden everything I write is underlined!!! How do I stop this abberant behavior?

Urge

[Nisgeis]

Hmmm, that's odd. I don't know how that happened, perhaps something got mixed up. With the radar training pack I provided, you don't need to copy them into the single missions folder, just install with JSGME as normal. I downloaded JCC's version of the mission and he's changed the ship without updating the blurb, except his ship starts about 20 km away and is on a course of 342 so that can't be the mission you have either. Maybe along the way I incorporated a changed mission file without noticing.

I've modified the mission and re-uploaded it here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1952

10 knots on a course of 338 at a starting range of 12,000 yards.

Well done for spotting it though. The speed was indeed 18 knots, so well done for finding the 'deliberate mistake' :DL.

To stop the underlining, highlight all the text and click on the U with an underline in the text formatting toolbar at the top of the editting window.

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...I've modified the mission and re-uploaded it here:
Thank You Sir

Nisgeis wrote...To stop the underlining, highlight all the text and click on the U with an underline in the text formatting toolbar at the top of the editting window.
Again, Thanks

Urge

[Nisgeis]

No problem, sorry about the mix up. How are you getting on with it?

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote... How are you getting on with it? I played with both radar scopes a few times to get ranges and that all seems pretty straightforward. After loading the correct Tdc training mission I started working on the TDC inputs but I am having a technical problem. I can't read some of the dials. The Target, Target Course and Own Ship dials are very difficult to read. I have to use a magnifying glass! The game resolution I am using is 1280 x 960. On the forum the pics you show have dials that are easy to read. Is it me or is it true for everyone? Should I change my resolution? I haven't spent all that much time playing with this mod but it seems to have lots of potential to make the game infinitely more interesting and rewarding.
Never mind, I just figured out that all I had to do was zoom it. I'm an idiot!

Another question, I am guessing that with this new TDC capability I can shoot stern-mot-bow, bow-stern-mot or any other combo of shots I want by just pointing at where on the target I want to hit and firing, is this true? In essence, point and shoot once you have a solution in the TDC.

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

OK, so I am trying to work with the XRT5 TDC Training Part 1 mission located here... E:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter Wolves of the Pacific\Data\SingleMissions\XRT5 TDC Training Part 1. I have a contact going 18 knots at a range of approx. 8550yds when the mission starts! The blurb about the mission states that it is going 10 knots and is at a range of 12,000 yds. What's up with this?


I am mad at you Nisgeis!!! I too got 18 kts. So, I would restart the attack scenario. Thankfully, I only wasted a few hours. Thank you Urge!!:yeah: (A good auditor is never a waste of money!) 18 kts.!! Sheesh!!

[Urge]

I have a few observations, hopefully some of them are valid and helpful.
In the blurb that Nisgeis wrote for the TDC Training Part One mission it states:

This is the first TDC training mission. You will be positioned NNE of your target, a large modern tanker, which is steaming on a course NNW at approximately 12,000 yards (6 miles). The tanker is on a course of 338 degrees at a speed of 10 knots.

Practice using the TDC, with the details given above. As you know the target's course, you do not need to worry about eyeballing or drawing on the chart to work out the target's AOB. Use the TDC's target course entry dial to enter the course of 338 (making sure the AOB dial is selected in the periscope) and send this to the TDC. I attempted this a few times and always ended up with the TDC showing the target going right to left(port AOB) when it was actually going left to right(starboard AOB). This clearly would not work so I decided that you needed to do a range and bearing before you do the AOB and this worked out perfectly. I am def. a noob at this so I don't know if I did something else wrong and corrected it with this or what?

In John Channing's Radar Training instructions he says after you get your Radar range and bearing to point the scope at the bearing you got from Radar but you really want to point it at the ship if it is visible, yes? That is what I have been doing anyway.

After I turn on the PK my target course keeps changing. Just a few degrees but it was down to 333° and I still wasn't in position to fire. Is this a problem?

Is there any reason I can't update range, bearing or AOB after the PK is on? I mean, that's what it's there for right? Just the same way I do it before I turn on the PK.

A couple of times while trying this I swear I entered the speed but later on I looked and it read zero. Could I have clicked anything to return speed to zero?

I took several screenshots, converted them and uploaded them to Photobucket but I am unhappy with the results. I am going to add one to this post just to make sure I have a clue and try for better pics later after I come back from a wake.

sample pic
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_110911_203.jpgUrge

Well, apparently I don't have a clue. How do I make this appear as a full size pic?

[I'm goin' down]

I am still pissed off! :wah:(My forward torpedoes' crew is refusing to man their stations and are about ready to mutiny! In fact, they have taken off their unifiorms, and are on the deck, dancing in their T-shirts and shorts, the radio, which is now playing 'Hey, Soul Sister," by Train." They play every song by Train because, as you know, the crew of our namesake, the "SS Barb" went ashore on the Jap mainland in the real Mccoy and blew a train to smithereens. "Hey, where did those girls come from? It ain't fair the way they move. Got to go because when the girls 'cut a rug, you know it is the only drug I need.' ":salute:

[I'm goin' down]

Thank God for Urge!:woot:

[Nisgeis]

I have a few observations, hopefully some of them are valid and helpful.
In the blurb that Nisgeis wrote for the TDC Training Part One mission it states:

I attempted this a few times and always ended up with the TDC showing the target going right to left(port AOB) when it was actually going left to right(starboard AOB). This clearly would not work so I decided that you needed to do a range and bearing before you do the AOB and this worked out perfectly. I am def. a noob at this so I don't know if I did something else wrong and corrected it with this or what?

You can put the course in without putting in a bearing as well, but the problem is only correct when you have range, bearing, speed and course entered. So, yes you need to tell the TDC where the target is (range and bearing) as well as where it is going to be (course and speed). The screenshot your (sort of) posted is correct for course.

In John Channing's Radar Training instructions he says after you get your Radar range and bearing to point the scope at the bearing you got from Radar but you really want to point it at the ship if it is visible, yes? That is what I have been doing anyway.

Yes, Optical bearings are always preferable to radar bearings. They are much faster, as you can lock the scope and much more accurate.

After I turn on the PK my target course keeps changing. Just a few degrees but it was down to 333° and I still wasn't in position to fire. Is this a problem?

The target course will change if you enter a new bearing, because the in game TDC has a bug in it, which messes up the course when you enter it. Just make sure to reset the course when you put a new range and bearing in.

Is there any reason I can't update range, bearing or AOB after the PK is on? I mean, that's what it's there for right? Just the same way I do it before I turn on the PK.

This is what I said when you asked about that dials mod:

I tried something similar last year using the set_tgt_speed etcetera commands in the game, but I decided against putting them into the mod, as you still have to send the updates to the TDC to get them into the solution and it only works when the PK is Off, which is kind of not the point of the mod. I thought it would get confusing having the AoB and associated dials update in real time when the PK was off, but doing something different when the PK was on. The only way round that would be to turn the PK off mid solution, but then that's just odd and adds extra steps into the process. You can already see the target course update as you change the AoB on the 3D TDC.

There is no benefit in updating the target's speed or range in real time that I can see either.I thought it would cause confusion :DL. That's why I left it out. That code doesn't work properly with the US TDC.

A couple of times while trying this I swear I entered the speed but later on I looked and it read zero. Could I have clicked anything to return speed to zero?

You can only set the speed to zero if you select zero speed and send it to the TDC.


I took several screenshots, converted them and uploaded them to Photobucket but I am unhappy with the results. I am going to add one to this post just to make sure I have a clue and try for better pics later after I come back from a wake.

sample pic

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_110911_203.jpgUrge

Well, apparently I don't have a clue. How do I make this appear as a full size pic?

Don't use the 'CODE' option, just use a picture box like you did. That screenshot looks fine as far as course goes.

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...You can put the course in without putting in a bearing as well, but the problem is only correct when you have range, bearing, speed and course entered. So, yes you need to tell the TDC where the target is (range and bearing) as well as where it is going to be (course and speed). The screenshot your (sort of) posted is correct for course.

In your directions for the training mission you have people putting in the bearing and range after the AOB and speed which is what I think I did and kept getting the wrong AOB-Port vs Starboard. As long as I do range and bearing 1st I have no problem.

Nisgeis wrote...as you still have to send the updates to the TDC to get them into the solution and it only works when the PK is Off, which is kind of not the point of the mod.

So, once you have a solution and the PK is turned on you can't change anything in the TDC unless you turn off the PK. Will this be acurate if you do turn it off and add new info? Say they zig or change speed or in that case would you just start over?

Nisgeis wrote...There is no benefit in updating the target's speed or range in real time that I can see either.

I don't understand your reasoning here, again say they zig or change speed? see above

Sorry if I'm being a pain in the ass or dense, I'm just trying to understand. I am really intrigued by this mod but there is a lot to remember and many steps but it makes the game infinitely more interesting. Thanks!

One more test pic showing the bearing off by 5°
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_112056_031.jpg


Urge

[Urge]

I just ran thru the XRT5 TDC Training mission 3 times and I can't hit the broad side of a barn or tanker. "I Think" I did everything by the book (John Channing's book) but I got nuthin'. Here are a few screenshots...
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_235941_108.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_235705_702.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_235720_812.jpg

Hopefully, Nisgeis or John or someone can spot something I am doing wrong here. If I am not taking the right shots let me know and I will try again. My torps always miss astern.

I read that if you want to remove guages etc. and clean up your shots you hit delete but exactly how does that work? Do you press control-F11-delete all at once or delete first or last or what??? I tried several combos but no joy.

Urge

[Nisgeis]

The course will change whenever you send a range and bearing, so yes you must reset the course after you enter a range and bearing. JCC's tutorial has the order of range and bearing, course then speed.

That dial fix mod doesn't work with the PK switched on. It's not a fault with the mod, it's just the way the game is designed. I don't recommend using that mod, because to get any benefit from it, you have to turn the PK off, change the data, send it, then turn the PK back on. That's two extra steps you don't need and any extra step is a point for a potential error to creep in. That mod allows you to:

See the PK dial changing with the AoB, so you can eyeball course without trial and error.
Change the range and see the solution update.
Change the speed and see the solution update.

The course can be entered more accurately using the 'course' dial on the 3D TDC than it can by using the blurry PK dial on the periscope/TBT. The range can be entered precisely on the radar unit at any range up to 40,000 and there is no point whatsoever in seeing the effect changing the speed has, as the problem is either correct or it isn't. So you don't really need that mod to use this mod and it will just create confusion with all the turning off and on of the PK as it's a means of seeing what effect the change will have before you send the data to the TDC. You can do that with the 3D TDC without that mod and then you won't have to worry about turning the PK on and off. The longer the PK is off, the more innacuarte your slution becomes and the faster you have to update all the things to avoid having a badly wrong problem. With the PK on, even though the course may be slightly off, it's still updating the range and bearing while you fiddle about with the course so your problem will be more accurate. Don't forget that the PK also tracks the changes according to your own speed and course and you can cover a lot of ground going 20 knots when closing a target, none of which will be taken into account with the PK off. Leave the PK on.

On your example, I don't understand what you mean by the bearing being off by five degrees? Are you saying it's lagging behind? It looks like your range is off looking at the attack map, which will affect the generated range adversely. If it helps, run through the problem with auto targetting enabled and use the lock periscope to see what the target is doing, then compare that to what you get when you run the problem on manual.

To take a screenshot without the HUD dials, press DEL on the numeric keypad (you may need to have Num Lock toggled) then take the screenshot as normal.

[Urge]

I misspoke, I meant the course was off by 5°. The target course dial is showing 333° instead of 338°. This happens every tme, I enter 338° into the TDC and over time it changes. I don't think it changes enough to be causing my misses though.

Nisgeis wrote...It looks like your range is off looking at the attack map, which will affect the generated range adversely.

Bingo, I played the mission thru a few times and the TDC generated range is decreasing slower than the actual range. Here is a screenshot taken right after I turned on the PK
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-09_205648_718.jpg
and here is one a few minutes later.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-09_205912_656.jpg
This is a shot of the TDC showing the Target Course dial and the white triangle is pointing to just under 334°(same mission as the previous 2 pics but a few minutes later).
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-09_214152_171.jpg
Shouldn't the course stay on 338° the whole time in this test mission?
I didn't get a screenshot of the range difference between the white actual radar range and the green generated range at the time when I fired torps but it was steadily increasing and was probably somewhere around 5-600yds. My torpedos all missed astern like always.

Urge

[razark]

This is a shot of the TDC showing the Target Course dial and the white triangle is pointing to just under 334°(same mission as the previous 2 pics but a few minutes later).

Shouldn't the course stay on 338° the whole time in this test mission?

In your shot of the TDC, the Target Course dial is showing a course of 338. Look at the left side of the course dial. There's a horizontal line, and it's lined up past 33, almost to 34. The white triangles are for data entry. Read the data at that line. Outer dial, first two digits, 33. Inner dial, last digit, is showing just a shade under 8. So, dang close to 338.

[Urge]

razark wrote...In your shot of the TDC, the Target Course dial is showing a course of 338. Look at the left side of the course dial. There's a horizontal line, and it's lined up past 33, almost to 34. The white triangles are for data entry. Read the data at that line. Outer dial, first two digits, 33. Inner dial, last digit, is showing just a shade under 8. So, dang close to 338.

but when you enter the course the white triangle for the high speed dial is pointing to 8° and now it is pointing to just under 4°. I went back and tried this again and kept getting radar readings to compare with the generated range and the differential between the two increases to 600yds when the target is dead ahead. here is a screenshot showing the target on the 338° course and the actual radar ranges I got at various points.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-09_230600_687.jpg
The second course line I drew in is 333°(It starts at the moment I turned on the PK) and it lines up perfectly with the range difference between the generated range and the actual radar readings. The 3 compass circles correspond to the difference between the generated range and the actual readings as shown on the green and white dials on the range unit.

Urge

[Urge]

I just want to hear someone say that they actually played this test mission and sunk or at least hit the tanker using the TDC solution. When is the best time to fire for TDC shots? When they are a few degrees before dead ahead?

On a positive note, if I ever figure out how to actually hit something, I have gotten to the point where I can do all the TDC entry(to the point of turning on the PK) in not much more time than a DOK setup.

Urge

[Nisgeis]

Urge, run the mission with automatic targetting turned on and lock the scope to the target. That will populate the TDC with the target data. Don't turn the PK on thgough, just keep the scope locked. Then you can take radar readings and compare them to the TDC (100% accurate automatic data) range and bearing and see what's possibly going wrong.

The white triangles on the TDC will change as the bearing changes but don't pay any attention to it, it's only changing because the target bearing is changing and New Target Course = Own Course + Relative Bearing to Target + Angle on the Bow.

[John Channing]

I just want to hear someone say that they actually played this test mission and sunk or at least hit the tanker using the TDC solution. When is the best time to fire for TDC shots? When they are a few degrees before dead ahead?

On a positive note, if I ever figure out how to actually hit something, I have gotten to the point where I can do all the TDC entry(to the point of turning on the PK) in not much more time than a DOK setup.

Urge


I can certainly attest that it is possible (see the last slide in part 2 above). That is an actual hit using the process as outlined. I have repeated the success several times since on actual patrols with Map Contacts off... which is 10X more difficult that a situation where you already know course and speed.

However....

as this mod ratchets up the reality of this sim to new levels I have learned that, to be successful, you have to follow actual WWII US Sub doctrine. So what I have been doing is, before shooting, I confirm the solution with an observation and, if there are any discrepancies at all, I update the solution by using the Stadimeter to confirm the appx range and using the "Send Range/Bearing" button to update the bearing. This has increased my sucess rate substantially.

The other unintended benefit of this mod is that, after all of the work involved in getting a successful hit, when you get a dud it really hurts. It gives you a small aproximation of the frustration the real Captains must have felt.

JCC

[Urge]

John Channing wrote...So what I have been doing is, before shooting, I confirm the solution with an observation and, if there are any discrepancies at all, I update the solution by using the Stadimeter to confirm the appx range and using the "Send Range/Bearing" button to update the bearing. This has increased my sucess rate substantially.

Can you flesh this out? Are you taking radar readings? Are you turning off the PK? etc.

Nisgeis- I will try this with auto targetting.

[John Channing]

What I am doing is pretty much exactly what is outlined in Parts 1 & 2 above. The only difference is that now when I make my shooting observation if I observe any measureable deviation with what the TDC is telling me I lock the scope , take a range/bearing reading, check the range with the Stadimeter to make sure it is close to what the TDC has running (and if you have been following the steps it will be) and I send the new range/bearing to the TDC and then shoot. All of this is with the PK running. I never turn it off unless there is a target zig, in which case I start all over again.

I don't think auto targetting will work as it takes over the TDC function (Nisgeis?). What worked for me was practicing with Map Contacts on so you can see where you are falling behind.

JCC

JCC

[Nisgeis]

I don't think auto targetting will work as it takes over the TDC function (Nisgeis?). What worked for me was practicing with Map Contacts on so you can see where you are falling behind.

Locking the scope will update the TDC with actual real time data, so is like having the TDC running with the PK on, even though it's off. Or, you can lock the scope, then start the PK and from that point on the PK will update based on the target's attributes at that point in time (but not subseuently if for example it zigs). It's a good way to see what the TDC does when tracking a target, as you know the info will be 100% accurate. In that way you can use it to compare your radar measurements against the generated solution with the added peace of mind that the TDC solution is correct. It might help.

I tried shooting at long range in the test mission, just to verify it did work, but two near instantaneous prematures later the target was zigzagging madly with about three minutes left on the torpedo run time :88).

[I'm goin' down]

I am having problems. I am playing with map contacts on, as I still need a crutch. Here are two questions. I am after the tanker that is at 290 degrees approximatley in traning mission no. 3

1. When the target's bearing reads 301 degrees via sonar, but the periscope reads 305, for example, should I send range and bearing to the TDC at 301 or 305 degrees? I think Nisgeis said to send the periscope bearing to the TDC, as it is more accurate.
2. Now I want to plot the range and bearing on the Nav. Map. When I plot the bearing in question no. 1, should I plot with the sonar bearing (301 degrees) or the periscope bearing (305 degrees)? Sometimes the plot differential can be significant.
Here is the big question;
3. I am having a problem setting the target's course. I have plotted its course to be roughly 105 degrees. First, I change the stadimeter view to the Aob dial. Then I return to the TDC mod and move the triangle to 105 degrees on the target ship dial. However the target ship does not adjust its course to 105 degrees even when I return to the stadimeter and click on the Aob dial to send the course to the TDC. I must be doing something wrong, as the target's course doesn't adjust and remains at about 115 degrees, which is obviously incorrect. What am I doing wrong? Alternatively, what should I being doing? (I am using TMO 2.0)

[razark]

1. When the target's bearing reads 301 degrees via sonar, but the periscope reads 305, for example, should I send range and bearing to the TDC at 301 or 305 degrees? I think Nisgeis said to send the periscope bearing to the TDC, as it is more accurate.
2. Now I want to plot the range and bearing on the Nav. Map. When I plot the bearing in question no. 1, should I plot with the sonar bearing (301 degrees) or the periscope bearing (305 degrees)? Sometimes the plot differential can be significant.

Optical bearing and radar range
The best combination will never change
Optical bearing and radar range
Then your plot shall never be strange.



Here is the big question;
3. I am having a problem setting the target's course. I have plotted its course to be roughly 105 degrees. First, I change the stadimeter view to the Aob dial. Then I return to the TDC mod and move the triangle to 105 degrees on the target ship dial. However the target ship does not adjust its course to 105 degrees even when I return to the stadimeter and click on the Aob dial to send the course to the TDC. I must be doing something wrong, as the target's course doesn't adjust and remains at about 115 degrees, which is obviously incorrect. What am I doing wrong? Alternatively, what should I being doing? (I am using TMO 2.0)
That sounds right. I haven't had a problem doing it that way. Try adjusting the AOB directly in the periscope screen, and make sure it is adjusting.

[I'm goin' down]

Your answer to question no. 3 doesn't cut it. The tutorial by the revered John Channing says that you drag the triangle on the mod to the target's course. I do that. I does not work. Channing? Nisgeis? Your turn, please.
(Christ, Captain, while you are fiddling with this new tool you call the TDC mod, the entire Jap Navy said right by us!)

[John Channing]

Revered? Really?


Anyway... if you follow what I did in the video it has always worked for me. Not sure what is going on with yours.


JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Is this the video with no sound? If so, I will watch it again.

[I'm goin' down]

My Aob dial on the stadimeter is not snapping to the course set on the mod. Is it supposed to jump to the course or move slowly to the course set by dragging the triangle on the TDC target dial?

Leaving the above aside, the bottom line may be that this mod is simply too procedurally difficult to screw with. It takes a long, long time to set up, and I am having no success on practice lesson no. 3, even on the slow ship.

[Urge]

I played the mission out twice, once with the scope locked and the PK on and once with just the scope locked. In both cases I sank the tanker and the radar ranges and generated ranges were virtually identical throughout(when I only had the scope locked and the PK off the ranges didn't match up until the ship got within 9000yds). I did notice that the white triangle on the Target Course fast dial eventually drifted off of the 8° mark but when I went back and looked thru the scope it went right back to 8°.
I had to include this shot after all the frustration I've been having.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-10_221244_218.jpg

So Nisgeis, what does all this mean and how can I do this without using auto targetting?

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

that is the puniest ship I ever saw.:haha:

[Nisgeis]

My Aob dial on the stadimeter is not snapping to the course set on the mod. Is it supposed to jump to the course or move slowly to the course set by dragging the triangle on the TDC target dial?

Leaving the above aside, the bottom line may be that this mod is simply too procedurally difficult to screw with. It takes a long, long time to set up, and I am having no success on practice lesson no. 3, even on the slow ship.

When you send the AoB the PK's dial will snap to the new course and not move gradually. For TDC training, have you used the TDC training mission? That gives you a target of known course and speed so you don't have to worry about plotting. It's not complicated to set up the TDC at all. You change to the AoB dial, you move the triangles on the target course dial to the course you want, then you send that AoB. That's not procedurally difficult.

When you change the Target Course on the 3D TDC it will change the AoB entry dial to whatever matches that course, then when you send that AoB then the target ship will show as heading to that course and the triangles will all line up. Make sure you are reading the new course off the Target Course dial. If you are changing the target course on the 3D TDC and the AoB dial on the stadimeter is not changing, then your game has gone wrong, or if the AoB dial on the stadimeter is changing, but no matter what AoB you send it does not change the target's course, then that also an indication that something has gone wrong.

There's no trick to it, you just change it and send it. If you are doing what the video shows and your game does not respond in the same way, what is it that your game does that is different to the video? Can you change the target AoB through just the stadimeter pull out? If you cannot get the TDC to change the course or accept a new AoB at all, then I'd try a re-install.

So Nisgeis, what does all this mean and how can I do this without using auto targetting?Urge


Well what was it in the TDC that was different? If the target speed and target course were the same as you had entered, then nothing you entered was wrong and there should be no issue. The TDC will produce the same results with the same data every time, so there's no reason for your radar ranges to be off when you are in manual targetting mode, as nothing changes with the radar.

Are you sure you are following the tutorial exactly, E.G. when you enter a new range and bearing you reset the course as well back to 338? Ignore the white triangles drifting, as they are only relevant when you are setting new data to send to the TDC. They will normally drift, as the relative bearing changes and that is normal and perfectly OK.

EDIT: It's like riding a bike. Once you get it, you won't be able to do it wrong.

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...Are you sure you are following the tutorial exactly, E.G. when you enter a new range and bearing you reset the course as well back to 338?

I am being very consistent, I enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing, AOB and turn on the PK. The green and white radar ranges match up right after I turn it on. You can see my TDC info on some of the screenshots, the course and speed are correct. What else could I or should I have done?

John Channing wrote...What I am doing is pretty much exactly what is outlined in Parts 1 & 2 above. The only difference is that now when I make my shooting observation if I observe any measureable deviation with what the TDC is telling me I lock the scope , take a range/bearing reading, check the range with the Stadimeter to make sure it is close to what the TDC has running (and if you have been following the steps it will be) and I send the new range/bearing to the TDC and then shoot. All of this is with the PK running.

OK, I am going to play out the test mission and try this but I shouldn't have to in this case-yes/no?

Urge

[Nisgeis]

Post up a screenshot of the TDC at the moment you fire the torpedoes and I'll see if I can spot anything wrong. Right after you enter the info it will all agree, so there must be something that's happening later on to make the solution innaccurate.

BTW, why are you entering the Raneg and bearing and AOB twice?

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...BTW, why are you entering the Raneg and bearing and AOB twice? because that is what is says to do in the tutorial.

I just played it before I read your post and I used the stadimeter to update range and bearing shortly before I fired torps and I had 4 hits and 2 duds. It just doesn't seem like I should have to do that in this test mission. I will replay doing it as I have been and take that screenshot you suggested Nisgeis.
Urge

[Nisgeis]

We'll get you working :DL.

[Urge]

Here are TDC screenshots of my latest miss taken right after I fired 6 torps.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-11_171646_468.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-11_171624_046.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-11_171628_500.jpg

Urge

[Nisgeis]

Hmmm, your range is off by 200 or so yards, but the bearing is off by five degrees... how are you getting the bearing? Optically still? If so the bearing should be spot on.

I did notice something amiss with your order, you said:

I enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing, AOB and turn on the PK.

What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

The idea is to update the TDC every now and then with new information if it is different and try to use the differences to identify course and speed changes. The first setup is a problem though as the data will be old by the time the PK is turned on, so you need to update it with the fresh info.

[John Channing]

Were you surfaced or submerged? What time of day? How fast were you going?

I am wondering if the target spotted you or the torpedo wakes and sped up to avoid your torps? I am having a particularly hard time with one merchant on my latest patrol due to him always spotting my torps.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

It would be daylight clear weather for that training mission. I think it's a friendly target, so he shouldn't be worried by spotting you. Unfortunately you can't control what loadout you get in a mission, or I'd have loaded up with all electrics. I thnk Tubes #5 and #6 are electric though? I did hear rumours that the ships have hydrophones and can hear the torps.

That's a good point though... does the TDC indicator on the torpedo map track with the target before you fire. That's a good way to see if your TDC solution is correct or not. I forgot about it as I'm playing with map contacts off. If that black tapered line is TMO's version of the White X and line that is.

[John Channing]

It's been a long time since I even looked at the Attack Map but if I recall correctly that line is a visual indication of the track your solution is predicting. If I am right (and I certainly may be wrong) then the range on the solution is off by 200 yds (like you already noticed).

Strange though that if the contact is 200 yds closer than the solution then shouldn't the torps miss ahead rather than behind?

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

My mod was screwed up to the point that when I tried to disable it, it would not do so. I gave up and will reinstall the game. That should be the solution to the failure of the target to snap to the course setting.

[razark]

If that black tapered line is TMO's version of the White X and line that is.
I'm not sure why the line looks like that. I'm running TMO, and I've got a white X and line.

Strange though that if the contact is 200 yds closer than the solution then shouldn't the torps miss ahead rather than behind?
If the target was only closer. The bearing appears to be off a decent amount as well.

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

The idea is to update the TDC every now and then with new information if it is different and try to use the differences to identify course and speed changes. The first setup is a problem though as the data will be old by the time the PK is turned on, so you need to update it with the fresh info.Everything I did was per instruction in the tutorial so if this is wrong then the tutorial is wrong. I will try this again following your instructions Nisgeis.

John Channing wrote...Were you surfaced or submerged? What time of day? How fast were you going?

I am wondering if the target spotted you or the torpedo wakes and sped up to avoid your torps? I am having a particularly hard time with one merchant on my latest patrol due to him always spotting my torps.I initially submerged to 40ft. it was whatever time of day you set up the test mission for, I don't remember but it was daylight. I started off going full speed and decreased to either 2/3s and or 1/3 depending upon how close I was when I thought about it. The target mostly never spotted me unless I forgot to lower my depth as we got closer. I would generally go to 48' next(so I could keep using the radar) and then to 58' as he got closer still. I have run this mission probably a couple of dozen times or more in the course of trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. I am not a modder, the only thing i have "modded" at all is the pics on the walls of the Captain's office but I can see where this process would get old. The only time the target spotted me was when I forgot to lower my depth as he got closer and it was obvious that he was aware of my presence. He definitely wasn't friendly though, he was firing at me when he did spot me. I didn't include results for anytime that the target spotted me I just reset and started over.

Nisgeis wrote...That's a good point though... does the TDC indicator on the torpedo map track with the target before you fire. That's a good way to see if your TDC solution is correct or not. I forgot about it as I'm playing with map contacts off. If that black tapered line is TMO's version of the White X and line that is.Here are the only 2 pics I took of the attack map.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_235720_812.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_223002_733.jpg

John Channing wrote...Strange though that if the contact is 200 yds closer than the solution then shouldn't the torps miss ahead rather than behind?The Radar range decreased faster than the generated range and the torps always missed astern.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-08_235941_108.jpg

Well, hopefully I have been of some use as a tester and It appears the tutorial needs to be modified. So it would appear that I am the first to try the XRT5 TDC Training Part 1 mission. I am off to try again.

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

Do I get compensated for my time?

I reloaded my 3d TDC. I am practicing on the 3rd practice mission. The 3d TDC is the last mod enabled. I disabled the Gate interior fix to be safe. I now have the course down via plotting with map contacts enabled.

I have tried to set course via the triangle on the 3d TDC target dial. I set course to 115 degrees (or 118 degrees, I forgot?) but the dial on the right does not match, nor does the ship snap to its new course. I set the new course when the stadimeter is showing the Aob dial. I have tried setting course with TDC off and with radar turned off. I have tried it with TDC on and radar turned on. I have tried it with periscope locked on the target and with periscope unlocked. What is wrong?

Also, why measure speed? Can't we just hit the little button on the speed dial on the stadimeter?

[Urge]

Hallelujah Put 4 cases of beer in the cooler! Range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on the PK and update range and bearing leaving PK on.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-11_232509_390.jpg

Urge

[Roger Dodger]

I finally got around to trying out the TDC Targeting (Part 2). Using the RADAR for plotting course and track of target works well, and I am able to get a pretty good estimate (even though I was tracking a fishing fleet).

When I went to the TBT/Periscope screen and pulled out the tools, I noticed that the ATTACK/DATA TOOL does not have the 'Send to TDC' or the 'Clock' buttons - only smooth metal where they should be. The Stadimeter (Range), AOB and Speed buttons are present and working, but not the other two.

No one else has complained here, so I must be unique. What happened to the buttons, and how do I get them back?

I tried disabling the TDC Mod, then enabled the Submarine School training mods and the TDC Mod, but still no buttons.

Installed Mods:
TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD
Radar and TDC Training Missions v1.02
3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/ATTACKDATATOOL.jpg

[NorthBeach]

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

[Nisgeis]

Do I get compensated for my time?

You get the standard compensation of the tears of a thousand unicorns. I have taken the liberty of placing them in your house's water system already.

I reloaded my 3d TDC. I am practicing on the 3rd practice mission. The 3d TDC is the last mod enabled. I disabled the Gate interior fix to be safe. I now have the course down via plotting with map contacts enabled.

I have tried to set course via the triangle on the 3d TDC target dial. I set course to 115 degrees (or 118 degrees, I forgot?) but the dial on the right does not match, nor does the ship snap to its new course. I set the new course when the stadimeter is showing the Aob dial. I have tried setting course with TDC off and with radar turned off. I have tried it with TDC on and radar turned on. I have tried it with periscope locked on the target and with periscope unlocked. What is wrong?

Something your doing isn't right. Read the target course off the target course dial, nowhere else. Post up a screenshot of the TDC settings where you have the white triangles in the position for 115 and we'll tell you if that's right or not.

Hallelujah Put 4 cases of beer in the cooler! Range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on the PK and update range and bearing leaving PK on.

Just like in the tutorial :O:. Well done captain :salute:. Now try some of the other radar missions and see if you can hit them.

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

Exactly that. Thanks NorthBeach.

[John Channing]

Hallelujah Put 4 cases of beer in the cooler! Range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on the PK and update range and bearing leaving PK on.


Urge

Congratulations! Feels great, don't it?

And don't forget that after you turn on the PK and update range/bearing reset your course in the TDC leaving PK on!

JCC

[Roger Dodger]

Sounds like you're rigged for auto-targeting rather than manual-targeting.

Sure enough - my bad. I've never used manual targeting before, so didn't even think to rig for it. :damn:

Thanks for the enlightenment :salute:

Now that I have rigged for Manual-Targeting, it is no longer possible to 'Lock' the TBT/Scope on the target, yes? I don't see those handy-dandy yellow/green triangles anymore.


God Bless Electric Boat

[John Channing]

Use the "L" key.




(For those of you who remember "Janes Apache-Longbow", I can still hear the instructor's voice...)

JCC

[Roger Dodger]

Hmmm, that's odd. I don't know how that happened, perhaps something got mixed up. With the radar training pack I provided, you don't need to copy them into the single missions folder, just install with JSGME as normal. I downloaded JCC's version of the mission and he's changed the ship without updating the blurb, except his ship starts about 20 km away and is on a course of 342 so that can't be the mission you have either. Maybe along the way I incorporated a changed mission file without noticing.

I've modified the mission and re-uploaded it here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1952

10 knots on a course of 338 at a starting range of 12,000 yards.


I downloaded and installed v1.02 via JSME into the Submarine School as directed. When I tried out the first 'mission', I found myself smacky-dab in the middle of about forty-eleven U.S. Destroyers and Cruisers - some stationary, some moving.

Say 'What???' I haven't even tried to find the target @12K yards. Did I miss something?

[Roger Dodger]

Near the end of Part 2, text on the screen says:

"We are almost ready to shoot. The target is at 1661 yds.
He will cross your bow at 88 degrees (his course 338 - your course 250 degrees = 88 degrees)"

I'll assume that courses 338 and 250 are 'True' courses, so the 88 degrees must also be a 'True' bearing (as opposed to 'Relative' bearing). Which dial will read out the 88 degree bearing? And is that the point where I fire my torpedoes?

[I'm goin' down]

How do I get my screen shot to be full size? Every size I try is smaller that the space on the screen. I am using image shack. I make the screen shot with Widows Vista Paint.

[John Channing]

Near the end of Part 2, text on the screen says:

"We are almost ready to shoot. The target is at 1661 yds.
He will cross your bow at 88 degrees (his course 338 - your course 250 degrees = 88 degrees)"

I'll assume that courses 338 and 250 are 'True' courses, so the 88 degrees must also be a 'True' bearing (as opposed to 'Relative' bearing). Which dial will read out the 88 degree bearing? And is that the point where I fire my torpedoes?

The courses are indeed true. The 88 degrees will be your torpedo track angle or the relative bearing difference between the target course and yours. This is indicated by the "arrow" coming out of your sub on the "Own Ship" dial.

Looking at the dials as they are now if I was to shoot the torpedo would have to change direction by about 20 degrees to the left and it would hit the ship on it's port bow at a very oblique angle. Bettwer to wait until the ship closes a bit and it is closer to a 90 degree angle

When I am in the chair I generally shoot when the arrow is no more than +/- 15 degrees off of the center of my boat (on the dial) and the target is roughly perpendicular to my boat (assuming you are in range). tricky but it can be done.

This is like one of those old 3-D puzzles. If you stare at it long enough, it all becomes clear!

JCC

[John Channing]

How do I get my screen shot to be full size? Every size I try is smaller that the space on the screen. I am using image shack. I make the screen shot with Widows Vista Paint.

I never had much luck with Image Shack. I just set up a photo album here and link to it. The photos seem to size correctly without any frigging around.

Go to your "User CP" and look along the left for the link to set up your very own Subsim photo album.

All part of the service.

JCC

[Roger Dodger]

The courses are indeed true. The 88 degrees will be your torpedo track angle or the relative bearing difference between the target course and yours. This is indicated by the "arrow" coming out of your sub on the "Own Ship" dial.

Looking at the dials as they are now if I was to shoot the torpedo would have to change direction by about 20 degrees to the left and it would hit the ship on it's port bow at a very oblique angle. Bettwer to wait until the ship closes a bit and it is closer to a 90 degree angle

When I am in the chair I generally shoot when the arrow is no more than +/- 15 degrees off of the center of my boat (on the dial) and the target is roughly perpendicular to my boat (assuming you are in range). tricky but it can be done.

This is like one of those old 3-D puzzles. If you stare at it long enough, it all becomes clear!

JCC

Yeah, I think I need a cartoon or something. I'm having a really hard time visualizing this.

I just finished running the 2nd Sub School Mission. Everybody is stationary, so the set-up was pretty casual. I took three RADAR observations to start to get a good idea of where the target was, then used the scope (bridge was all wet due to a monsoon) to line up with the bearing (312T), hit the (=) key, 1/3 ahead. When headed in the right direction, came to all stop, and took two more RADAR observations. Repeated this process several times, making minor corrections as I went along. When I got to where I felt comfortable with the firing solution, fired three torpedoes and scored three hits. Pretty good for firing blind (never could see the target until I got a hit). I could never have gotten a shot using auto-targeting since I couldn't get an observation.

Final readouts from the periscope screen:
POSITION KEEPER/TORPEDO SETTINGS
Bow Torpedo's track angle: 89
Range: 917
Bow Torpedo's gyro angle: 357 (R)
Bow Torpedo's course: 312 (T)
Offset Angle: 0
FIRING OBSERVATION (RADAR)
Range: 800
Bearing: 357

Never figured out why the descreptency between the two ranges.

[I'm goin' down]

Uoading of screenshots turned into a disaster. I quit trying.

Here is an update. I figured out the 3D TDC target course setting protocol. In determining a target's course I do not know why one would fiddle with the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC by dragging the white triangle to match its plotted course. That dial appears useless when initially inputting a target's course. The dial that initially affects the target's course is the target dial on the upper RIGHT of the 3D TDC. That is what worked for me. First, I open the stadimeter to the Aob dial. Second, I open the 3D TDC and set the target's course via the target dial on the upper RIGHT. Third, I open the the stadimeter's Aob dial and send the target's course to the TDC. Fourth, I open the 3D TDC to verify it has accepted the data re the course change. If the course change has been accepted, the target dial on the upper left on the 3D TDC snaps to the new course. If this procedure is correct, then I have solved the target course problem I was having. I used this procedure to sink the slow target in the the third training mission.

Here are some other questions and comments.

First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake.

Second, what is the point of turning the radar off. Two times in the tutorial, the reader is instructed to turn radar off. His initial instructions notes that turning of radar is an important step. I do not understand why or the importance of doing so. It this instruction necessary or important?

Third, and this is a major question. The tutorial instructs the reader to set speed via the 3 minute rule. This is a pain the ass, and using the stop watch in combo with range/bearing readings is not precise because you are taking a range and bearing, starting the watch, switching screens to plot, switiiching screens to send the range, and at the end of three minutes, doing it again. Question No. 3: Why can't the reader rely on the watch button on the stadimeter speed dial, take two range and bearing readings, and rely the radarman's calculation of speed? I believe URGE or Hitman noted that this was an alternative. I would save time and needless plotting.

Once the TDC is in operation, one can verify if the course is accurate on the Attack Map. If it appears inaccurate, additional range and bearing readings will assist in providing correct information. If range is the only issue, one can adjust it via the range dial on the stadimeter.

I note that I missed six shots at the second tanker in the Mission 3 tutorial (the one approaching from 70 degrees starboard), but not by much. The tanker approached fairly quickly, and I was compelled to turn my boat 90 degrees to starboard to have a better (but not great) angle for an attack. I measured the tanker's speed at 14.25 kts. which was probably too slow. Its course was 220 degrees which appeared fairly accurate. The shots missed aft of the tanker by a few hundred yds. The problem here was the closing speed of the tanker, as it was passing my boat before I had a completed the set up. If I had spotted it at 20K yds. rather tan 12K yds., I might have fared better. Comments are appreciated.

I had map contacts on during this exercise, but my range and bearing for both tankers (the slow and faster one) we accurate. I simply had more time to set up for the slower target, plus I used the speed announced by the radarman for the slower target and I used the 3 minute speed rule for the faster one.

[bowfin]

Just wanted to add my two cents worth...
When plotting the target radar range and bearing onto the map. If you use radar "true bearing" instead of "relative bearing" with the ruler tool is already in true bearing. Just means you can look at radar bearing and then jump to map and simply draw a line from sub icon to target.
No need to work out sub heading and use protractor to work out difference of target bearing from sub heading. So much simpler and time saving.
I used to do it like JC's tutorial. Was a great moment when I realized I could do it with true bearing no matter what sub heading.

[I'm goin' down]

Are you saying the bearing displayed on the ceiling of the A scope is the true bearing? That appears to be what you mean to say.

If that is the true bearing, I wonder why the periscope view is referred to as the relative bearing. It seems that the periscope view is more accurate (i.e. true) than the true bearing you describe.

If I understand you, it is a good shortcut unless Nisgeis says you are crazy, or something like that.

[bowfin]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2369/truebearing.png

The outside circle is relative target bearing. 302 this goes in the TDC.
The inside circle is true bearing. 235 this can be used on the map for plotting...

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7672/trueplot.png

The ruler tool helper is in true bearing. Start the ruler on your sub and when the line goes through 235 you have the bearing. Using true bearing for plotting takes less steps and introduces less error into your plot.
But the TDC still NEEDS the relative bearing !

[Nisgeis]

Relative means relative to your own boat, with 000 being your own bow, so a target that is at a relative bearing of 090 is on your starboard beam when you are pointing North. If your boat were turned without moving forward or backward through 180 degrees to point due South, then the target would be be at a relative bearing of 270. The True bearing doesn't change, as that's taken relative to North, with North being 000, so with your boat pointing North, the true bearing would be 090 and with yout boat pointing South, the target would still be at a true bearing of 090.

[Roger Dodger]

Are you saying the bearing displayed on the ceiling of the A scope is the true bearing? That appears to be what you mean to say.

If that is the true bearing, I wonder why the periscope view is referred to as the relative bearing. It seems that the periscope view is more accurate (i.e. true) than the true bearing you describe.

If I understand you, it is a good shortcut unless Nisgeis says you are crazy, or something like that.

Ship courses are given in True (Magnetic) bearings. The Periscope gives you the Relative (your bow = 0 degrees) bearings. Radar Bearings are also given in Relative bearings.

If the target bearing is 90 degrees (relative), then the target is 90 degrees to the right (off your bow) from your heading, no matter what your true course is.

When plotting the target's course, use the ruler with the compass open to get a True course. Start your line at your first mark, then continue through the rest. Read the true course right on the compass. You then plot the target's true course into the TDC which should give you the AOB. Your own gyro repeater (ship's compass) will auto update the TDC with your course (true).

If that isn't correct, then someone send me to the boatswain's locker for a pint of realative bearing grease.

[I'm goin' down]

Bowfin. You confused me. I understand relative and true bearing. All you are saying, aren't you, is that when you have plotted two, three or four range and bearing readings, you can use the compass/ruler tool to draw the target's true course on the Nav Map? I knew that, and it is very old news. However, if you are using the compass/ruler tool to plot the various bearings and ranges, which I believe you cannot do (note that Mr. Channing recommends using the protractor tool and the ruler [or compass/ruler] tool for plotting the varioujs range and bearing readings), then you have lost me. My short answer to your post is that it did not occur to me that you were offering an explanation to a question I did not pose. Using the compass/ruler tool to draw (plot?) true course is well established.

Nisgeis and Roger/Dodger - thanks for the explanations, but Bowfin lost me in his translation. See the paragraph above. BTW-- good explanations of true course vs. relative course in any event.

Nisgeis, I posted 3 questions above. Provide me whatever information you can muster, please.

p.s. I am at the Battle of the Philipine (spell?) Sea in TMO2.0/RSRDC. My boat is pointing in the wrong direction. The task force on radar is at 26,650 yds. at 185 degrees. Hmm. Aft tubes? Pretty scary for my first action with map contacts off! I may turn the boat...

[sergei]

First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake

Sure you have.
You have a nomograph, don't you?
It's on the right of your nav map.

Take a note of what time you start the plot. Then whenever you add a mark, measure the distance from the first mark to the current mark, note the elapsed time, and use the nomograph to estimate speed.
This is how I have been estimating speed, with very good results.
No need to mess around with the stopwatch, or estimate speed button, or make your plots exactly 3 minutes apart.
Also has the advantage that over time, as the plot develops, it will tend to become more accurate, as minor deviations in the plot become less important.

[I'm goin' down]

I used to have a nomograph on my Nav Map, but I am using nisgeis "brilliant" torpedo angle calculator mod, and it canceled and disabled my poor nomograph. Just kidding! :haha: I couldn't resist....

re your post:

Excellent idea! :up:Very good post and a great tool I never thought to apply in this situation. The three minute rule re plotting on the Nav Map is not workable in my opinion. Too much plotting, and dealing with the stop watch is too confusing given that you are also plotting at the begining and end of the 3 minute period. The Nomograph, on the other had, is fast and EASY. I can rest easy now, confident that tomorrow will be a bad day for the bad guys.

[Mescator]

Take a note of what time you start the plot. Then whenever you add a mark, measure the distance from the first mark to the current mark, note the elapsed time, and use the nomograph to estimate speed.
This is how I have been estimating speed, with very good results.
No need to mess around with the stopwatch, or estimate speed button, or make your plots exactly 3 minutes apart.
Also has the advantage that over time, as the plot develops, it will tend to become more accurate, as minor deviations in the plot become less important.

Actually i've been meaning to ask for clarification on that. How on earth do you read it? I've been sort of figuring parts of it out myself after reading the tutorial once and that's the one thing i never figured out lol.

Also, how do you guys get a course? Once i have a few plot point's i just use the compass with the ruler and figure the course out with that but i never get it perfectly accurate. I saw someone using a different method so i figure I'm probably butchering the process.

I've got it down accurate enough to fire on someone with only very minor visual adjustment's via periscope once they are in range regardless, which is still fantastic. Again, props Nisgeis!

[sergei]

Yeah.
The thing about the 3 minute rule is that unless your plots are extremely accurate, you can easily get an error of a few hundred yards, which will translate to an speed estimate error of one or two knots (or even more!).
Easily enough to miss the target.

If you are measuring the distance travelled in for example 20 minutes, an error of a few hundred yards is going to have a negligible effect.
If the plot ends up taking an hour, or more (quite likely), then an error of several hundred yards will have virtually no effect at all on your speed estimate.

I can rest easy now, confident that tomorrow will be a bad day for the bad guys.

Good luck IGD, go get 'em :up:

[I'm goin' down]

Actually i've been meaning to ask for clarification on that. How on earth do you read it? I've been sort of figuring parts of it out myself after reading the tutorial once and that's the one thing i never figured out lol.

Also, how do you guys get a course? Once i have a few plot point's i just use the compass with the ruler and figure the course out with that but i never get it perfectly accurate. I saw someone using a different method so i figure I'm probably butchering the process.

I've got it down accurate enough to fire on someone with only very minor visual adjustment's via periscope once they are in range regardless, which is still fantastic. Again, props Nisgeis!

I am too tired to give an explanation of the Nomograph. It is easy and someone can post a screenshot that will explain it.

As for true course, it is very easy. Assume you have two plots of range and bearing that are accurate. Open the compass/ruler tool and drag the tool from the first plot to the second plot. You will note that the compass is is part of the open tool. Read where the line you have drawn intersects the compass as you drag it -- that is the true course. E.g. A line running from east to west (i.e. from 270 degrees to 90 degrees is on a course of 90 degrees. A ship on traveling on that line has a relative heading of 0 degrees and a true course of 90 degrees. Note that the line on the compass/ruler tool intersects the compass at 90 degrees.) See the screenshot by Bowfin and note where the line intersects the compass. The intersection point is the true course.

[sergei]

Actually i've been meaning to ask for clarification on that. How on earth do you read it?

Give me a few minutes, I'll take some screenies and post an explanation.

[sergei]

The nomograph is basically a calculator.
You have 3 variables in this calculator - time, speed and distance.
If you know any two of these values, you can quickly and easily calculate the third, by just lining up the known values with the ruler.

Example - calculating speed.

I know my target has travelled 6000 yards in 15 minutes.
Take the ruler, start on the 15 minute mark, drag it over the 6000 yard mark, and extend it past the speed estimate line.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/95/speedy.jpg

As you can see, my target has a calculated speed of 12 knots.

Oh man, how easy was that! :03:

Example 2 - time to intercept

I know a task force is headed my way. It's making 20 knots, and is about 6 miles away. So that I don't panic, I want to know how much time I have to prepare.

Take the ruler, start on the 20 knot mark and drag it through the 6 mile mark.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4894/timezx.jpg

I can see from my calculation I have about 18 minutes before they run over me.

The nomograph, a massively useful tool - don't leave home without it.

[bowfin]

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to answer anyone's question. I just noticed that JC was plotting range and bearing with protractor and ruler using relative bearing off the subs course. I do indeed plot range and bearing with just the ruler and true bearing. It was just a tip to anyone that might find it easier and didn't know you could do it that way. It saves time and messing about... There is so much to learn. I am always learning new ways of looking at it :hmmm: not trying to confuse anyone

[Mescator]

@ I'm goin down. Thanks for Clarification. That's basically what i was doing, so i'm glad i got that right.

@ Sergei, Many thanks. It's one of those thing's that's really so simple once it gets pointed out to you. I appreciate the help :)

[John Channing]

Uoading of screenshots turned into a disaster. I quit trying.

Here is an update. I figured out the 3D TDC target course setting protocol. In determining a target's course I do not know why one would fiddle with the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC by dragging the white triangle to match its plotted course. That dial appears useless when initially inputting a target's course. The dial that initially affects the target's course is the target dial on the upper RIGHT of the 3D TDC. That is what worked for me. First, I open the stadimeter to the Aob dial. Second, I open the 3D TDC and set the target's course via the target dial on the upper RIGHT. Third, I open the the stadimeter's Aob dial and send the target's course to the TDC. Fourth, I open the 3D TDC to verify it has accepted the data re the course change. If the course change has been accepted, the target dial on the upper left on the 3D TDC snaps to the new course. If this procedure is correct, then I have solved the target course problem I was having. I used this procedure to sink the slow target in the the third training mission.

Here are some other questions and comments.

First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake.

Second, what is the point of turning the radar off. Two times in the tutorial, the reader is instructed to turn radar off. His initial instructions notes that turning of radar is an important step. I do not understand why or the importance of doing so. It this instruction necessary or important?

Third, and this is a major question. The tutorial instructs the reader to set speed via the 3 minute rule. This is a pain the ass, and using the stop watch in combo with range/bearing readings is not precise because you are taking a range and bearing, starting the watch, switching screens to plot, switiiching screens to send the range, and at the end of three minutes, doing it again. Question No. 3: Why can't the reader rely on the watch button on the stadimeter speed dial, take two range and bearing readings, and rely the radarman's calculation of speed? I believe URGE or Hitman noted that this was an alternative. I would save time and needless plotting.

Once the TDC is in operation, one can verify if the course is accurate on the Attack Map. If it appears inaccurate, additional range and bearing readings will assist in providing correct information. If range is the only issue, one can adjust it via the range dial on the stadimeter.

I note that I missed six shots at the second tanker in the Mission 3 tutorial (the one approaching from 70 degrees starboard), but not by much. The tanker approached fairly quickly, and I was compelled to turn my boat 90 degrees to starboard to have a better (but not great) angle for an attack. I measured the tanker's speed at 14.25 kts. which was probably too slow. Its course was 220 degrees which appeared fairly accurate. The shots missed aft of the tanker by a few hundred yds. The problem here was the closing speed of the tanker, as it was passing my boat before I had a completed the set up. If I had spotted it at 20K yds. rather tan 12K yds., I might have fared better. Comments are appreciated.

I had map contacts on during this exercise, but my range and bearing for both tankers (the slow and faster one) we accurate. I simply had more time to set up for the slower target, plus I used the speed announced by the radarman for the slower target and I used the 3 minute speed rule for the faster one.

OK... let's deal with some of your unanswered questions.


1) The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

2) Already answered (and call me John :DL)

3) Part 1- There is a bug in the game that when you leave the radar "station" it will go from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. There is no way to prevent it. Turning off the radar means the radar bearing sweep will stay in the position that it was in when you turned it off. In fast developing scenarios you don't want to waste time finding your blips!

Part 2- Sometimes I find the "watch button" unreliable. It's important to note that even today they till have a full manual tracking party developing a solution alongside the BSY Series combat systems. Having two systems mens better results. OK... it a personal thing. I don't trust some of the game mechanics.

Lastly if you have a rapidly closing target just move to about 1200 yds off his track and change your course to match his and match his speed. Now he isn't closing anymore and you will have all the time you need. Once you are happy with your solution slow down, change course to close his track, submerge and shoot.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to answer anyone's question. I just noticed that JC was plotting range and bearing with protractor and ruler using relative bearing off the subs course. I do indeed plot range and bearing with just the ruler and true bearing. It was just a tip to anyone that might find it easier and didn't know you could do it that way. It saves time and messing about... There is so much to learn. I am always learning new ways of looking at it :hmmm: not trying to confuse anyone

I thought your explanation was very clear and very helpful. The previous version of the radar mod had the radar train bearing indicator (the thing in your first screenshot) calibrated accurately, as the stock one is quite badly off as the textures aren't centred, so you'll get errors creeping in if you read the values off it of a couple of degrees in some cases, which can cause problems with your plot.

Would it help if I put in some digital readouts of the true bearing? The way the real indicator worked (with the concentric dials) was good, but the eye's resolution is far greater than what you can show easily and clearly on the screen.

1) The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

As this dial seems to be causing some confusion, I'm thinking about remodelling it. First, to give the proper AOBs rather than just the visual indication you get now and second to add a pointer, that will go the other way that will point to the target course. E.G. if you queue a change of the AOB from 70 starboard set to 50 degrees starboard, then one pointer would go to 50 Degrees Starbaord and one pointer would go 20 degrees in the other direction to point at the new course. I think this would be clearer. Any thoughts on this anyone? This is an evolving project after all.

[sergei]

Would it help if I put in some digital readouts of the true course?

Do you mean true bearing?

[Nisgeis]

Do you mean true bearing?

I was sure that's what I had said :hmmm:. Yes, true radar bearing to target on the radar station, just to make things easy, accurate and fast.

Oh btw thanks for the explanation about the nomograph. I never knew how that worked :DL. Who did that mod?

[sergei]

I'm sure that's what I said :hmmm:

That's what is says now.
Maybe I quoted you as you were still editing your post? :03:

A digital readout of true bearing would greatly simplify the plotting task.
No more screwing around with the protractor.
Just mark true bearing and range from the ruler, job done.
One tool to rule them all. :DL

Oh btw thanks for the explanation about the nomograph. I never knew how that worked :DL. Who did that mod?

That's no problem.
The nomograph is a massively useful little tool.
I couldn't imagine playing the game without it.
There are various versions available on the forum, so I couldn't say who made it originally.
The one you see in my screenshots comes as part of TMO 2.0.
I believe RFB also comes with a nomograph.

[I'm goin' down]

After reading your post re the Nomograph, I had a wonderful night's sleep dreaming of the how I won the Battle of the Philipine Sea with my Nomograph. You screenies of the Nomograph posted this morning were also excellent! Very, very nice job from a senior skipper!:up:

[Nisgeis]

That's what is says now.
Maybe I quoted you as you were still editing your post? :03:

Hmmm, you did it again. I editted the last post to say 'I was sure that's what I had said' because I did get it wrong, but wanted to make it clear that it was editted, but then you went and ninja quoted me again! You've got to be quick round here! :DL

[sergei]

You've got to be quick round here! :DL

I've had a lot of coffee today Nisgeis, what can I say? :DL

EDIT: I've just checked the TMO Manual.
Someone called Hildofr is credited with the Nomograph.

[I'm goin' down]

what buttons do I hit to multi quote a message? I cannot figure it out.

Nisgeis and Bowfin - Bowfin was right re true course to plot from the range and bearing readings. I was wrong. I did not realize the that the dial on the ceiling near the A scope contained both true and relative courses. A close reading of Nisgeis positive feedback re Bowfin's post caused me to take a second look. Nisgeis, if you can add the true bearing digital readout to the mod as you suggested it would probably improve the mod for those of us, like me, who prefer dinner handed to them on a silver platter. Good find, Captain Bowfin!:yeah:

[Nisgeis]

what buttons do I hit to multi quote a message? I cannot figure it out.

Hit the button next to the quote button. It's the one with the + on it and the tooltip will say 'Multi-Quote This Message'. You have to be logged in initially for it to even appear. Nothing will happen at first, but click each post you want to quote until you get to the last post you want to quote, then click the normal quote button (Reply With Quote). The editor will then appear with all the messages you queued up in it.

[I'm goin' down]

Excellent reply. Thank you, thank you, thank you (he said falling all over himself)!

I have copied your reply below, with this suggestion. You numbering is confusing and does not track my post. I have bolded and underlined what I think are the corrections that will minimize reader confusion. If you correct your respones, PM me and I will delete this post. Here we go:

OK... let's deal with some of your unanswered questions.


Introductory Paragraph: The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

1) Already answered (and call me John.) See Sergei's post re the Nomograph.

2) - There is a bug in the game that when you leave the radar "station" it will go from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. There is no way to prevent it. Turning off the radar means the radar bearing sweep will stay in the position that it was in when you turned it off. In fast developing scenarios you don't want to waste time finding your blips!

3)- Sometimes I find the "watch button" unreliable. It's important to note that even today they till have a full manual tracking party developing a solution alongside the BSY Series combat systems. Having two systems mens better results. OK... it a personal thing. I don't trust some of the game mechanics.

Lastly if you have a rapidly closing target just move to about 1200 yds off his track and change your course to match his and match his speed. Now he isn't closing anymore and you will have all the time you need. Once you are happy with your solution slow down, change course to close his track, submerge and shoot.

JCC

I think the bolded portions make your response line up with my questions, but it is your call.

[I'm goin' down]

thanks for the instructions re multi quoting a message. I would have never figured it out.

BTW - you did not know how to use the Nomograph? That is quite surprising given your detailed analytical approach to the Sim. I wonder if aaronblood, the creator of the amazing MoBo program, has the same issue.:DL
Will wonders never cease?

It just goes to show all of us idiots that all is not lost. There is hope for us, even if we are not among the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[I'm goin' down]

I read some posts a while ago about the Nomograph. They discussed it and were wondering when it would be modded into the game. I think it happened quite some time ago, but I am not going to search for it as I don't have time right now.

[Nisgeis]

Someone called Hildofr is credited with the Nomograph.

I found the thread he posted it in. He only posted twice on subsim and the first one was to post up a link to the imperial nomograph.

[I'm goin' down]

I found the thread he posted it in. He only posted twice on subsim and the first one was to post up a link to the imperial nomograph.

I tried to multi quote the post from Nisgeis above and it failed again!! I need a walk through as I am not getting it.

[Nisgeis]

I tried to multi quote the post from Nisgeis above and it failed again!! I need a walk through as I am not getting it.

Try this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=173515&highlight=multi-quote

[I'm goin' down]

I am there, and waving my 3D TDC in the faces of the Jap fleet. But I got a problem. A Jap task force is coming right at me. My radarman says there are lots and lots of targets on his radar screen. So, you say, what's the problem? Well sir, I am trying to get a fix on one target as I manuever for position, so I can plot its course and use my trusty NOMOGRAPH to calculate it speed (hats off to Sergei). I see a lot of spikes on the A scope as I peer over the radarman's shoulder (he needs to take a bath!). How do I know I am tracking the same target? I am getting range and bearing readings all over the place. I stopped the game and will replay from the point of first contact once I figure this out. (Just my luck. When I am all set to go, there are too many ducks on the pond.)

Second problem. I can read the digital bearing on the ceiling, but I cannot zoom in close enough to read the true or relative bearing on the actual tool (it looks like a compass.) Thus, Bowfin's secret tip on plotting using the true bearing may not be feasible.:wah: Any suggestions? (Nisgeis, a digital read out of true bearing would be a nice addition.)

[Roger Dodger]

I thought your explanation was very clear and very helpful. The previous version of the radar mod had the radar train bearing indicator (the thing in your first screenshot) calibrated accurately, as the stock one is quite badly off as the textures aren't centred, so you'll get errors creeping in if you read the values off it of a couple of degrees in some cases, which can cause problems with your plot.

Hate to say it, but the RADAR isn't very accurate either. I've found a pretty consistent error of around +/- 2-3 degrees no matter how close I get to the target. Still working on getting accurate readings that match what the radarman tells me. He's alot closer.

When I get to the correct firing position, I can access the attack map to be sure my torpedoes are running to where I want them. If not, I can change the TORPEDO GYRO angle until the track line goes where I want it. Works best on stationary targets, of course.

Would it help if I put in some digital readouts of the true bearing? The way the real indicator worked (with the concentric dials) was good, but the eye's resolution is far greater than what you can show easily and clearly on the screen.

I've been using the white indicator for the relative bearing. There is also a green indicator that has different numbers (bearing?). What is that one for?

As this dial seems to be causing some confusion, I'm thinking about remodelling it. First, to give the proper AOBs rather than just the visual indication you get now and second to add a pointer, that will go the other way that will point to the target course. E.G. if you queue a change of the AOB from 70 starboard set to 50 degrees starboard, then one pointer would go to 50 Degrees Starbaord and one pointer would go 20 degrees in the other direction to point at the new course. I think this would be clearer. Any thoughts on this anyone? This is an evolving project after all.

Might be an idea worth thinking about. I hope you're considering changing the color of one of them though. Two 'white' arrows might be confusing.

Speaking of dials: The dials on the TDC that show my course (the one with white and blue triangles) never seem to settle down - they both keep whirling around. Shouldn't the white triangle indicate a steady course for my boat (unless I'm turning)? I think the blue one is for SONAR bearings. So far, I've only been practicing on the surface, so my sonarman won't get a bearing, and I expect that one to go round and round. Next step is to try a submerged attack to see what that one does.

Many of the functions are able to be entered via the ATTACK DATA TOOL on the TBT/Periscope screens. Seems alot handier, albeit a little less accurate, than having to switch between the TBT and the TDC screens. Color me lazy. :D

This MOD really kicks butt, and is not as daunting to learn as it seems at first glance. YOU ROCK! :yeah:


God Bless Electric Boat

[Nisgeis]

You can cheat big time and use the PPI scope to disciminate against targets. The PPI scope you have is far too good and is quite cheaty on groups of targets.

Or, you can track the nearest target to you, which may actually swap target depending on your and their orientation and the columns and the escorts on the flanks, but you will get a good indication of the course and speed by just tracking the nearest target (the target may occasionally overlap and you will swicth targets)

Or, track the biggest pip. I need to make a change to make the pips smaller in campaign mode, which will make it easier to see the difference in pip heights. Unfortunately there is a peculiar bug (I know!) in the radar, where in single mission mode, the radar pips are tiny, compared to in the capiagn, where they are much taller. To make the radar training missions usable, I had to make the pip height bigger in the single player missions, which means that the 'top out' in the campaign at longer ranges so you can't as easily see which is the bigger pip. Incredibly tis bug is further compounded by the fact that the radar pips get smaller the closer a target gets, instead of larger, as they should as the radar signal gets stonger.

Failing any of the above one can stay at the radar screen and constantly track a single target. As long as you concentrate on that single target it's fairly easy to track an individual among many. Leave the radar station though and all bets are off, so stay there for a few reading and then plot them to get a good idea. The targets will get easier to track as range decreases, as they will spread out. At long range they will all show up together, as the radar will pick up any target within a seven degree spread, which at long range is pretty much all of them. At lower ranges they should spread out more than that and give you an easier time. Get coarse, then get fine estimates. Coarse estimate to get into a goo position, fine to kill them.

[Nisgeis]

Hate to say it, but the RADAR isn't very accurate either. I've found a pretty consistent error of around +/- 2-3 degrees no matter how close I get to the target. Still working on getting accurate readings that match what the radarman tells me. He's alot closer.

The radar is accurate to at least half a degree on bearing, so if you are getting a two to there degree error, then I'm afraid that's operator error :-). Sweep over the target and then step back. As soon as the target pip appears again, that is the bearing. It's slower than using optical bearings and much more dis-orientating, but it's about as accurate. You can hit targets in the driving rain and heavy fog without ever seeing them (take that automatic targetting).

I've been using the white indicator for the relative bearing. There is also a green indicator that has different numbers (bearing?). What is that one for?

White is your own measurements and green is for the TDC's generated bearing, so if the TDC's PK says the target should be at a relative bearing of 173, then the green numbers will say 173. The green numbers on the radar unit likewise are the PK's generated range. It's so you can easily compare the figure you are measuring and the figure the TDC has currently, so you can easily detect errors in bearing rate or range rate.

The triangles you are talking about are actually blue and red. Blue is for sonar, yes and will point at wherever the sonar man is listening, so you can conduct submerged attacks and use the blue triangle as a contsant indicator of what the sonarman is reporting. You can easily see if the sonar bearing is lagged or advanced. The red triangle is for the radar and will stop whizzing if you turn the radar off between readings and will also allow you to visually check your radar bearing observation against the generated bearing. None of that will be of any use to you if you aren't using manual targetting and they'll just be spinny shirry things. Think of it as a pseudo-voice feedback as you as the TDC man want to constantly hear where the sonarman is tracking and it's a big pain to keep switching to the sonar and listening for yourself. Likewise, you don't want to switch to the TDC to see what the generated range is, remember that long number, then switch back to the radar and compare it... it also acts as a guide to where you should be looking on the scope to pick up the target you are tracking.

[razark]

Second problem. I can read the digital bearing on the ceiling, but I cannot zoom in close enough to read the true or relative bearing on the actual tool (it looks like a compass.) Thus, Bowfin's secret tip on plotting using the true bearing may not be feasible.:wah: Any suggestions? (Nisgeis, a digital read out of true bearing would be a nice addition.)
True Bearing = Relative Bearing + Own Course;

If (True Bearing > 360)
True Bearing = True Bearing - 360;


So, add the relative bearing of the contact to your course, and if it's greater than 360, subtract 360. Result is the true bearing of the contact.

[I'm goin' down]

You can cheat big time and use the PPI scope to disciminate against targets. The PPI scope you have is far too good and is quite cheaty on groups of targets.

I understood the balance of your post, which leaves me wondering if going after course when there is a convoy or task force isn't somewhat of a crap shoot. I guess I will find out.

As for the above quote, how do you use the PPI scope to get course and and range on a task force/convoy. This is one cheat I could live with.

[Nisgeis]

As for the above quote, how do you use the PPI scope to get course and and range on a task force/convoy. This is one cheat I could live with.

You can use it to pick out a single target and track it from the group (track via the 'A' Scope).

[I'm goin' down]

razark - if I have to get my own course by tapping the = button on my keyboard (didn't think I knew that one, did you?:D), then I am jumping around more than I prefer. I would rather read a digital read out.

Nisgeis - I am trying to follow a contact on the PPI scope. But it is very difficult, especially if it is not clear what the heading of the target task force/convoy is. You delightful mod has me chasing contacts that I cannot see, and with four contacts on the A screen, all at different ranges, I do not know if they are coming or going. (I need a new ream of legal pads, as I have plotted to the point where I have exhausted my supply.)

[razark]

razark - if I have to get my own course by tapping the = button on my keyboard (didn't think I knew that one, did you?:D), then I am jumping around more than I prefer. I would rather read a digital read out.
Wait, you don't know what direction you're heading?!? :D

I read own course off the bottom dials on the TDC. It's there, so I use it. I'd prefer the digital read out, though.

(I need a new ream of legal pads, as I have plotted to the point where I have exhausted my supply.)
One of these days, someone at work is going to ask why I'm printing out so much stuff at lunchtime. Of course, then I'll explain about my plotting logs, and go into a long-winded speech about WWII fleet boats, the advantage of radar, etc., and they'll leave me alone.

[I'm goin' down]

I never caught the task force in the Battle of the Philipine Sea. I finally gave up. I will replay the mission and try for a better position. Practice - I counted 35 bearing and range plot before I gave up on the task force. I could not track the same target with regularity, plus it appears the task force was moving away from me faster than I could could catch them.

Here is a question. When a target is at bearing "Y" (say 10 degrees), I plot the bearing with the protractor tool. According to Channing, you drag the tool to a point behind the sub to account for the distance the sub has traveled between the time of the reading of the bearing and when it was sent to the TDC, and at that point you create the protractor's angle. The angle should intercept the compass ring at 10 degrees.

If you examine the protractor angle, it will not be 10 degrees at the point where the angle is created. It will be a smaller or larger angle at the point were the angle is created usually (say, for e.g., 8 degrees or 12 degrees.) However from the center of the boat, the angle will be 10 degrees. In either case, the protractor angle will intercept the compass ring at 10 degrees. Is the difference in degrees attributable to the fact the sub in on the move, and the protractor angle is plotted from the location where the sub was supposed to be when the range and bearing are sent to the TDC? If so, the angles created can vary significantly based upon the subs speed and the time it takes plot the angle after the reading of the bearing. A bad angle will lead to a bad plot. A bad plot will lead to --- (you can figure out the rest of the scenario.)

[bowfin]

I would like a digital reading of true bearing. If your offering...
I couldn't read the radar train indicator from the fixed viewpoint when I first installed this mod. That's why I deleted the camera.DAT file, so I could move the camera in 3d, right in and view from directly in front of the dial.
I had a chance to try this mod last night. Was great ! I really like it. After a while of playing with everything going fine, the inner true bearing circle stopped revolving and stuck in line with relative bearing. Both zeros pointing straight up Even if I tried turning the sub the dial was frozen. I have installed:
TMO 1.9
RSRD_TMO
PE4
Max Optics 4 TMO
3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02.

Maybe my deleting the camera.DAT file caused the bug
Are you still making a TMO compatible version or should I just install TMO2 and then 3d TDC?

Thanks

[Roger Dodger]

Second problem. I can read the digital bearing on the ceiling, but I cannot zoom in close enough to read the true or relative bearing on the actual tool (it looks like a compass.) Thus, Bowfin's secret tip on plotting using the true bearing may not be feasible.:wah: Any suggestions?

Hmmm, perhaps glasses? Oh sorry, I just had to say that. I've got glasses, and I'll have to agree that the compass is a little blurry. It doesn't get any bigger when you zoom in either.

[Roger Dodger]

Are you still making a TMO compatible version or should I just install TMO2 and then 3d TDC?

Thanks

I installed TMO and RSRDC then 3D TDC. I made no deletions and have noticed no incompatability or other problems (other than my poor marksmanship)

Just a thought: Perhaps t'woud be better if Ducimus adapted 3D TDC to TMO and incorperated the two. I've seen the suggestion on the TMO forum.

[I'm goin' down]

I do not seem to have the ability to zoom close to the tool on the ceiling. I deleted the camera.dat file on the mod to see if that would help, but nothing happened.:hmmm:

I have tried tracking a TF real time in the Battle of the Philipine Sea. I got closer this time, but could not get its course. This mod is a bear to apply when there are a lot of ships on the radar screen.:hmmm:

We could use a couple of video tutorials -- one for the basics and one for convoys, etc.:

[Nisgeis]

Might be an idea worth thinking about. I hope you're considering changing the color of one of them though. Two 'white' arrows might be confusing.

That's a good idea. Must remember it. White and Brown arrows to match the reskin of the dials.

[John Channing]

I never caught the task force in the Battle of the Philipine Sea. I finally gave up. I will replay the mission and try for a better position. Practice - I counted 35 bearing and range plot before I gave up on the task force. I could not track the same target with regularity, plus it appears the task force was moving away from me faster than I could could catch them.

Here is a question. When a target is at bearing "Y" (say 10 degrees), I plot the bearing with the protractor tool. According to Channing, you drag the tool to a point behind the sub to account for the distance the sub has traveled between the time of the reading of the bearing and when it was sent to the TDC, and at that point you create the protractor's angle. The angle should intercept the compass ring at 10 degrees.

If you examine the protractor angle, it will not be 10 degrees at the point where the angle is created. It will be a smaller or larger angle at the point were the angle is created usually (say, for e.g., 8 degrees or 12 degrees.) However from the center of the boat, the angle will be 10 degrees. In either case, the protractor angle will intercept the compass ring at 10 degrees. Is the difference in degrees attributable to the fact the sub in on the move, and the protractor angle is plotted from the location where the sub was supposed to be when the range and bearing are sent to the TDC? If so, the angles created can vary significantly based upon the subs speed and the time it takes plot the angle after the reading of the bearing. A bad angle will lead to a bad plot. A bad plot will lead to --- (you can figure out the rest of the scenario.)

Yes that is the reason for the difference. What I do is , if you are moving at over Ahead Slow, I use the angle indicator number that appears at the intersection of the angle on the protractor to figure out my angle.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

This mod is very frustrating. I happily acknowledge it is a technological materpiece, but there are practical problems. While each step in radar tracking is not difficult, my major critism is that there a too many of them. The number of steps involved seriously diminishes the practicality of relying on this mod to play full time with map contacts disabled. Here is my case.
(1) 3 to 4 plots to estimate course. This can be time consuming and involves the 3D DC mod, the range screen on the stadimeter, the Nav Map screen and plotting tools for each plot. I assume most stop the game to draw a plot before resuming;
(2) the periscope screen must be open and the stadimter screen opened to range for each plot--which is another 3 or 4 tasks;
(3) Using the stopwatch to obtain preliminary target speed calculation involves mulitple steps (i.e. opening the Nav Map and using the stopwatch and Nomograph);
(4) Plot the preliminary course (Ruler Map tool);
Now for speed estimate:
(5) Periscope Screen and switch stadimater to Aob;
(6) Turn off radar
(7) 3D TDC - enter target course
(8) Periscope screen - send to course to TDC.
(10) Lots more to do....
(11) Get the picture, etc. etc. Plus if the target gets too close and spots the sub, all is lost as the target will take evasion action and fire at it and/or change course. Once the sub takes precautionary measures by diving to periscope depth, radar is history, and all the effort is wasted.
(12) Tracking convoys and TF with radar appears to be extremely difficult.

While I am undecided, I seriously question the practicality of this mod. There are too many steps to dump on one person's lap. Attacks can take a very, very long time. The radar device has serious advantages in bad weather, as the increase in probabililty of a successful attack in bad weather may outweigh the increase in time it takes to execute a radar attack. But I am not sure I want to suffer through the myriad of steps all the time. Playing with map contacts enabled might be a compromise. Frankly, playing with map contacts off is beginning to get old in view of the number of tasks involved to effectuate a radar attack. (Short version: There are too many tasks for one person.)

[Roger Dodger]

Are you supposed to get a spike on the 'A' scope when the target is over 3000 yds? I got a good contact on the tankers in the 3rd mission with the PPI scope (20K), but couldn't get a spike on the 'A' scope when I put it into precision mode.

I did get a decent readout from the bearing-o-meter, and there were two triangles (green and white) in precision mode. When I aligned the two, I did get a range, but it didn't seem very accurate.

Color me confused. :ping:

[Roger Dodger]

This mod is very frustrating. I happily acknowledge it is a technological materpiece, but there are practical problems. While each step in radar tracking is not difficult, my major critism is that there a too many of them. The number of steps involved seriously diminishes the practicality of relying on this mod to play full time with map contacts disabled.

Sounds like you're beginning to understand why they called it an 'ATTACK TEAM'. The captain looked through the scope, the XO would call out the bearing, The OOD worked the TDC, SONAR and/or RADAR would keep track of their range/bearing stats and update the OOD, who inputs into the TDC, the plotter would plot the attacks, etc. etc. Add the Helm, and the team gets pretty big in that little conning tower. That's 6 guys in that little room, and I'm sure I forgot a couple of stations.

Unfortunatly, with a single-person sim like this one, YOU get to do everything! Pausing the game while you make your plot or input your entries might be the best idea. So far, I haven't been able to keep up while me and the contact are moving. It got out of hand rather quickly - then the dog started shooting at me!

What would be neat if the multi-player online edition could be set up as ONE attack team over several computers for ONE submarine. I don't think it quite works that way, though.

[I'm goin' down]

We are in agreement. It is not that any single task is difficult. It is the sheer number of them. It not that it is hard to say, "She slit sheets, how many she sheets did she slit?" It is saying it many times under time pressure that that makes uttering it accurately each time a classic tongue twister (even though it generates a laugh when it is not repeated correctly.) Same theory, sort of, here (except, I am not laughing when the tankers I have been tracking in practice Mission 3 sail off into the sunset.) I thought about the fact that this mod is best designed for more than one person's use during an attack run. The multiple computer idea is not probably possible at some very sophisticated level of gaming, but sadly that is not currently feasible in the single game protocol of our beloved SH4.

But then, I am sure individuals like Nisgeis who are technically oriented and extremely detailed (see also his torpedo angle calculator mod [which, when I activated it, unfortunately canceled the Nomograph on the Nav. Map] and who may love these slowly developing, PRECISE attack scenarios, enjoys playing real time for a day or two to find, track and stealthily sink a flotilla or two while he is consumed with reading another book on how the mechanisms on submarines really work. Frankly, I am convinced the 3D TDC is the most sophisticated and historically accurate of the various attack schemes that have been developed to date (it is right up there with MoBo and the Solution Solver in terms of excellence), but it is prone to human error due to the number of tasks required to be completed to successful launch torpedoes at a target. Human error leads to missed shots. Missed shots lead to frustrated skippers, some who are demoted or resign, or become skippers who forgo using the mod for one that is less of a challenge to use with success.

[Nisgeis]

Are you supposed to get a spike on the 'A' scope when the target is over 3000 yds?

Yes. Post a screenshot of what you have when you are trying to take a range reading.

IGD, you are overcomplicating the whole thing. Just take a step back and try to understand what each step does and what it's for and you'll find you don't need as many as you are using.

[Roger Dodger]

Yes. Post a screenshot of what you have when you are trying to take a range reading.



http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/PPIbearing304.jpg
PPI Contact Bearing 304

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/PPIbearing304Prescision.jpg

PPI Contact Precision - Note no spike on 'A' Scope

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/AScope.jpg

'A' Scope - Triangles aligned reads 520 yds

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/Range-O-Meter.jpg

Bearing-O-Meter

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/AScope2.jpg

'A' Scope with spike. I wasn't moving the screen far enough

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/Range-O-Meter2.jpg

Second bearing

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/RogerDodger1946/NavMap.jpg

Nav Map Plot (Contacts on) Note 4 degree difference

Found my problem while messing around taking screenshots, then plotting between. Game on pause between actions, and while plotting. Still getting a 4 degree error, but may be because target moved even in that short a time.

[I'm goin' down]

I would like to hear if anyone has had success with tracking a TF or convoy. I haven't been able to get consistent readings even though I have been trying to fix the radar beam on a particular ship. It ends up that I have two or three readings that appear to be the same target. Then my beam seems to pick up another target and a much different range.

[bowfin]

I don't worry so much about the accuracy of individual range and bearing readings. If you take enough plot points it will still average out to be accurate enough. I still haven't had a chance to play with this mod. But the unmodded radar was wildly inaccurate guessing game! Maybe I can try this mod tomorrow arvo

[John Channing]

I would like to hear if anyone has had success with tracking a TF or convoy. I haven't been able to get consistent readings even though I have been trying to fix the radar beam on a particular ship. It ends up that I have two or three readings that appear to be the same target. Then my beam seems to pick up another target and a much different range.

You will never be able to track an entire task force or convoy... it's too much work.

What I do is maintain whatever course I am on (ie don't change your relative position to the contacts) and track the last (or first... your choice) contact spike on the A-Scope enough to get a rough range and course. I plot that on the map and then get into a intercept position and wait for them to come over the horizon. Once you have a visual you can lock one target in the TBT. change course to match theirs and go ahead standard to slow their closing rate, spend a little time getting a pretty good solution on it and then get into a really good intercept position. Submerge, and use the periscope, stadimeter and AOB tools to get the shooting solution.

Then I let go with everything I have and make a dignified withdrawl.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

I hear what you are saying re TF/Convoy. However, once a warship spots your boat, surface time is limited before its begins to shell you. I believe, although I am not positive, that will prevent, as a practical matter, the use of radar to track, etc., unless a captain is willing to sacrafice his boat to fire from far away deck guns of the TF/convoy.

[sergei]

Or you could run at radar depth for a while.

[John Channing]

You will never be able to track an entire task force or convoy... it's too much work.

What I do is maintain whatever course I am on (ie don't change your relative position to the contacts) and track the last (or first... your choice) contact spike on the A-Scope enough to get a rough range and course. I plot that on the map and then get into a intercept position and wait for them to come over the horizon. Once you have a visual you can lock one target in the TBT. change course to match theirs and go ahead standard to slow their closing rate, spend a little time getting a pretty good solution on it and then get into a really good intercept position. Submerge, and use the periscope, stadimeter and AOB tools to get the shooting solution.

Then I let go with everything I have and make a dignified withdrawl.

JCC

You should be able to stay at about 5,000 yds and have visual contact without them spotting you (esp. at night). and still be able to lock the TBT onto the target. IRL the Archer-Fish tracked the Shinano at visual range and on radar for several hours before a bad zig by the Shinano put her squarely in Archer-Fish's sights.

Or sergei's suggestion will work but will limit your speed and increase the closure rate.

Trust me, with time and practice, it will come. Where I really started to get good at it was in an actual patrol. So far 4 enemy hulls are on the bottom, 12k tons, with an expenditure of 19 torpedos. Allowing for duds and misses this is the most histoprically accurate total for a patrol I have ever had.

And the most fun.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

no one has fessed up that have tracked a convoy/TF with success. Daytime is probably out, because if you are on the surface too long, you are dead meat. Night time is possible theoretically, if you can manage to track a single target on radar, which I have found to be very difficut.

And, if you do track one ship in a convoy or TF, what if it is a DD? If you are hunting the bigger fish, how do you transfer the TDC from the DD to a BB, for example? If that can be done, we are in business. (I am trying to figure that one out and am thinking about it.)

[Diopos]

In a typical convoy the merchies will comprise a more organized "block" in the "middle" than the escorts/DDs. You can even set the radar to"focus" on a specific target and take its bearing and range.



.

[Nisgeis]

If you are hunting the bigger fish, how do you transfer the TDC from the DD to a BB, for example? If that can be done, we are in business. (I am trying to figure that one out and am thinking about it.)

All ships in a convoy will have the same course and speed, otherwise they wouldn't be sailing together.

[I'm goin' down]

true. so, if I want to attack a target different that the one I am tracking, I put the scope on it and get its range?

[John Channing]

Yes. You should already have speed and course for just about every ship in the group so all you need is final bearing and range.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

I am getting closer. I tried tracking a TF. I got three good range and bearings at 29K yds. So I set the TDC for the TF course at 70 degrees. Then, when I tried to get speed, I had difficulty. I had a computer speed of 19.75 and went with it, but my plots are around 11K, plus they revealed a possible different course. The long and short of it is that I fired on AO (carrier?) at 2000 yds., and the torpedoes ran several hundred yards ahead of the target. I need more practice, but at least the carrier was in the neighborhood. I think the day glow sign above my ship that said "Using Nisgeis Brand New 3D TDC Device Plus Channing's Training Manual with Hits Guaranteed" gave away my position.

[I'm goin' down]

http://a.imageshack.us/img821/4462/mission3shots5and6.th.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/mission3shots5and6.jpg/)

Well, I did hit something in Mission No. 3. But everytime I try to make a screenshot, I get a thumbnail.

[Nisgeis]

Well done.

[I'm goin' down]

My persistent problem is that the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC appears useless in setting course. If I move the white triangle on that dial to 220 degrees, the movements on the ship's dials on the upper right do not comport to that course. And when I send the 220 degree course to the TDC via the Aob dial, it ends up at some other course which matches the triangle(or the two triangles on the ship's dials on the upper right?) is at when I recheck the 3D TDC screen to see what the hell happened. I mean, moving the triangle on the 3D TDC screen to 220 degrees is straightforward, and this should not be happening.

On the other hand, if I move the two ship's dials on the upper right of the 3D TDC to 220 degrees and send that course to the TDC per the Aob dial, it works (for awhile) and then the course begins to change. When it changes I can reset it, but what is going on?

I assume I set course with the PK off, and turn the PK on after I have entered it accurately.

What is the story? Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Getting course is not a problem. I have figured out a shortcut, which involves taking a range and bearing, writing them down on a notepad, using the pencil to plot the point on the Nav Map where the reading was taken, and using the protractor tool to plot the angle. I do not plot the range. I plot the range after I have taken 3 or 4 readings per the above. It is a time saver, and is helpful if you make a mistake, as you can observe it fairly quickly on the Nav Map.

[Nisgeis]

My persistent problem is that the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC appears useless in setting course. If I move the white triangle on that dial to 220 degrees, the movements on the ship's dials on the upper right do not comport to that course.

Yes, that's right. When you use the wrong dial to set the right information, it doesn't work. If you want to set the target course, use the target course dial. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER DIAL TO READ TARGET COURSE FROM APART FROM THE TARGET COURSE DIAL.

As for the rest of your question, if you have entered the initial problem (range and bearing, speed and target course (AoB)) and have the PK running, DO NOT TURN OFF THE PK FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

[Munchausen]

Well, I did hit something in Mission No. 3. But everytime I try to make a screenshot, I get a thumbnail.

:cool: Paste your screenie to MS Paint and save it as a jpeg. Then upload it to Photobucket.

[I'm goin' down]

Here they are. I still cannot get a full size screenshot even using photobucket. If someone can give me specific sizing instructions for MS Paint and photobucket, I would appreciate it.

First shot is the the plot. Second shot, torpedoes 1 and 2 miss aft. (Pic too small to see torpedoes' wakes) So do torpedoes 3 and 4. Third shot: Torpedoes 5 and 6 make contact. Map contacts off. Range: around 2,000 yds. Target course: 220 degrees, heading from NE. Note: the target has passed 0 degrees and was pulling away.

Note: The plot: Red circle re No. 1 shows copies of the "x" I placed on the Nav Map to extend the plot to a long distance. Red circle no. 2 is the bearing angle plotted for each of the three plotts. Course reading per compass tool was 220 degrees.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj369/wsm24/MissionNo3SubSchool.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj369/wsm24/Mission3shotaftofthetarget.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj369/wsm24/Mission3shots5and6.jpg

[I'm goin' down]

My persistent problem is that the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC appears useless in setting course. If I move the white triangle on that dial to 220 degrees, the movements on the ship's dials on the upper right do not comport to that course. And when I send the 220 degree course to the TDC via the Aob dial, it ends up at some other course which matches the triangle(or the two triangles on the ship's dials on the upper right?) is at when I recheck the 3D TDC screen to see what the hell happened. I mean, moving the triangle on the 3D TDC screen to 220 degrees is straightforward, and this should not be happening.
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Nisgeis;1470399]Yes, that's right. When you use the wrong dial to set the right information, it doesn't work. If you want to set the target course, use the target course dial. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER DIAL TO READ TARGET COURSE FROM APART FROM THE TARGET COURSE DIAL.

As for the rest of your question, if you have entered the initial problem (range and bearing, speed and target course (AoB)) and have the PK running, DO NOT TURN OFF THE PK FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.


Okay. I understand your reply. However, sir, if it is correct then Mr. Channing needs to rewrite a portion of the tutorial. He clearly states that you should drag the white triangle on the target screen on the upper left of the 3D TDC to the target's plotted course, and that the two triangles on the the Target Course screen on the upper right of the 3D TDC will move in a corresponding matter to match the plotted course. I blindly followed Channing's instruction without success on several occasions. It was only when I disregarded his instruction re the dial on the upper left of the screen, and only adjusted the dials on the Target Course screen, that I properly sent the target's plotted course to the TDC via the Aob dial. On top of that, moving the twin dials on the Target Course Screen is not simple, especially when you have to move the two dials from a course of, say, 100 degrees to a course of, say 250 degrees. Please respond re the tutorial, as no one else has weighed in with this problem.

By the way, it is time for a master gunner like sergi to make a video tutorial. Reading, seeing and doing are a fast way to learn.

I am off to sink the third ship in Tutorial No. 3.:D

[John Channing]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2742

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see where this says anything about upper left. It refers to the "Target DIAL", and then the next slide refers to the "Target Course DIAL".

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2742

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see where this says anything about upper left. It refers to the "Target DIAL", and then the next slide refers to the "Target Course DIAL".

JCC

John, what are you saying? Are you saying you agree with me? Or, are you saying that it is the triangle on the Target dial that one should I should drag to set course? If the later, I think it is incorrect as I have explained above. The above pic clearly infers, incorrectly I believe, that course is changed (i.e. set) by dragging the triangle on the Target dial (not the Target Course triangles.)

If you are saying that you drag the two Target Course triangles, then I am in agreement that those two triangles be dragged to set the target's course for transmission to the TDC via the Aob dial.

Please enlighten me as to what you want me to do. I will do it. I am not sure what the purpose of the above pic is other than to inform us that we can expose a triangle on the Target dial and drag it around. It has no particular function from what I can discern. If you had a pic of the Target Course dials on the other hand, and advise us to drag the two triangles to the appropriate course, I would understand the above pic. (I am aware that you advise dragging the two triangles on a subsequent pic, but that does not explain the purpose of an instruction dragging the triange on the target dial above.)

[I'm goin' down]

The target south of the boat in the mission, how do you formulate an attack plan? The target is closing so fast from starboard that it is hard to close with accurate range and bearing plots. Should I turn my boat to port and race ahead of the target? This is a tough target.

[razark]

If I am thinking clearly:
The triangle on the Target Dial is used to quickly move the triangles on the Target Course dial. As you mention, the Target Course triangles can be a pain to drag around.

Click and drag the Target Dial triangle, while keeping an eye on the Target Course Dial. When the two triangles are near what you need to set, go to that dial, and fine tune the course with those. You do not need to set anything on the Target Dial itself, it's just a way to quickly set the Target Course Dial. What that triangle points to does not matter, don't even bother looking at it. Pay attention only to the Target Course Dial.


Edit:
This slide:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=351&pictureid=2740

[John Channing]

Exactly right.

JCC

[Urge]

I'm goin' down wrote...If someone can give me specific sizing instructions for MS Paint and photobucket, I would appreciate it.

I use Irfanview and it is just too easy. Download, install, go to file drop down list,open pic you want to convert and resize, click on image, select resize/resample, check set new size, check 800x600, go to file drop down list, save as, JPG-JPG/JPEG Format. You already know how to do photobucket since we can see your pics.

Urge

[Urge]

Oh, ugg I'm a medic. I have to post more.

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

If I am thinking clearly:
The triangle on the Target Dial is used to quickly move the triangles on the Target Course dial. As you mention, the Target Course triangles can be a pain to drag around.

Click and drag the Target Dial triangle, while keeping an eye on the Target Course Dial. When the two triangles are near what you need to set, go to that dial, and fine tune the course with those. You do not need to set anything on the Target Dial itself, it's just a way to quickly set the Target Course Dial. What that triangle points to does not matter, don't even bother looking at it. Pay attention only to the Target Course Dial.[/IMG]

You are thinking clearly. The key to the explanation is that the triangle on the Target is a "helper" and will not do the job re course. I assumed it would match course perfectly. Wrongamundo! Okay, that problem is solved. Thanks.

[Urge]

On repeated attempts to hit targets in the various 3D TDC training missions I have been successful but I am having issues with plotting and especially getting speed. In the XRT5 TDC training mission where I know the speed is 10 knots I am unable to come up with a solution of 10 knots. I think my problem is not getting the marks accurately at 3 minutes apart. After your initial range and bearing you make an X on the map behind your sub. when you take your second range and bearing you have to put the second X behind your sub at exactly 3 minutes Yes? Is there a way to force the stopwatch to remain visible even when you switch screens? What with getting the range and bearing, stopping the radar, switching to the nav map, pulling up the stopwatch and making an X at exactly 3 minutes I am having issues. Is there something I am missing? I know I'm slow but I catch on eventually.
Why can't I skip the protractor and just draw a line from the X behind my boat thru the relevant bearing on the 360° plotter out to the distance the radar shows? My plots are only coming out within 10° even though I am pausing the game. I don't get how you could do an accurate plot without pausing the game? Is anyone having any luck doing this? I would be interested in hearing your techniques. Or even if you are pausing the game if anyone wants to flesh out how they go about plotting I'm sure it would be helpful to all.

Urge

[Nisgeis]

You don't have to measure exactly 3 minutes apart, as you're right that does require some good timing and quick radar skills. Speed = Distance / Time, so you can measure the distance between two points measured at any time interval.

One knot = One nautical mile travelled in one hour. One nautical mile = 2,000 yards (in game). Or in other words Knots = Miles / Hours. So, if you have a target that travels 3.7 miles in 23 minutes, 23/60 = 0.383 (approx) then Knots = 3.7 / 0.383 = 9.7 knots aprox. You can use seconds too, you just have to divide those by 3600 to convert them into a fraction of an hour. Or failing all that, use the nomograph as detailed by Sergei earlier in the thread.

The stopwatch is a pain as it keeps disappearing, yet another annoyance of the game.

As to why you can't just plot with the bearing tool, well you can, but you have to use true bearings, instead of the relatve bearings the radar readout will give you. The protractor is necessary to plot the relative bearing from your course to the target, rather than the absolute bearing you get when using the bearing tool.

If you're having trouble plotting, can you post up a screenshot of your plot and also the points you took to plot against (e.g. bearing, range and time) and we can have a look and see what is going wrong.

[I'm goin' down]

I have the same issue as urge re the stopwatch. I bitched about the stopwatch disappearing a long time ago. Someone needs to do a mod that will keep it on the screen unless we the click it or hit the "X" button to make it disappear.

For speed, what i have been doing is draw the first "x" behind the boat and plot the the angle. Then I sit there and do nothing but wait about 2 minutes and 30 seconds minutes while I stare at the Nav Map. I then take a second range and bearing, stop the watch, mark the spot with an "x" and plot the bearing angle. In each instance I stop the game to plot. After the second plot, I plot range for both readings. I have no idea how anyone can successfully mange the game without pausing it to enter the plots using the 3D TDC.

[John Channing]

First of all no one should be worrying about speed until you have a fair idea of the target's range and course and have that plotted out on your map.

Now, if you want to stay with the three minute rule simply put an mark where your sub is and write down the range and bearing of the contact at that time on a piece of paper.

Start the watch.

Go back to the radar screen (now the watch is running in the background) and get ready to plot your next data point. Press the "X" key and voila the watch is back.

You know have about 2:30 to relax and get ready.

by 2:45 get your contact postion plotted on the PPI and be at the A-Scope and

at 3:00 write down range and bearing on a piece of paper, move to map and put another X where your sub is.

You now have the 2 positions where the data was collected, all of the bearing and range info for both X's and can take your time plotting and measuring the difference.

Nisgeis I am beginning to wonder if tying the TDC clock to the Stopwatch might be a good idea after all. If there was some way to start it when you start the plot then all of this becomes a little easier for newcommers.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

As to why you can't just plot with the bearing tool, well you can, but you have to use true bearings, instead of the relatve bearings the radar readout will give you. The protractor is necessary to plot the relative bearing from your course to the target, rather than the absolute bearing you get when using the bearing tool.

Just a clarification. I think I understand the above, but want to make sure it does not cause confusion. If you plot with the protractor, you can plot relative bearing. The angle create by the protractor and used on the plot can match the relative bearing reading.

If you forgo the protractor and use the ruler/compass tool, you are not drawing an angle. You are drawing a line. The only way to know what direction the line is drawn is by reference to the line's true course on the compass/ruler tool. There is no relation between the number of degrees on the angle created using the protractor and the number of degrees on the true course of the line drawn using the ruler/compass tool. I think that is what Nisgeis is saying.

[I'm goin' down]

The target south of the boat in the mission, how do you formulate an attack plan? The target is closing so fast from starboard that it is hard to close with accurate range and bearing plots. Should I turn my boat to port and race ahead of the target? This is a tough target.

The above refers to Training Mission no. 3. Nisgeis, give me a hint on how to tackle the SOB to the south. (pretty please with sprinkles on it.)

I tried TM 4. Target to the NW. I thought I was doing okay until I noticed the target was at 260 degrees. That did not look right, so I checked the Nav Map. I overshot the target's course line which I had plotted at 90 degrees. I hit reverse to back up, but my boat began to turn. I ended up firing 4 aft torpedoes out of desperation. They never had a chance. I wasn't close or even in the ballpark. (Could not see a thing due to weather.) Another hour gone.

[I'm goin' down]

I have been rereading your tutorial. I did you notice that you instruct to start the PK, but never instruct to turn it off. (I can live with that instruction.) Further along in the tutorial, you instruct to reenter range and speed. You instruct to turn the PK on a second time. Why would I do that? THE PK IS ON AND HAS NOT BEEN TURN OFF. I think it is a duplicative instruction. Correct me if I am wrong.

I am off the TM 4 to sink the SOB to the NW (where is Urge when I need him? Okay, Okay, Segei will do in his stead...), which is HIDDEN BY A CLOAKING DEVISE disguised a bad weather (some refer to it as a typhoon.)

[Urge]

OK, I'm just going to post some screenshots and you can make of them what you will.
Here is the radar range and bearing right after I turned off the radar.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-18_135111_375.jpg
Here is the protractor marking down the 319° bearing.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-18_135342_156.jpg
and here is the ruler laying out the same 319° bearing
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-18_135412_921.jpg
Here is an earlier attempt at plotting. The target is going ese but I have him going ene.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/Urge2121/SH4Img2010-08-18_133512_500.jpg

SH4 crashed while I was going back and forth and alt tabbing with irfanview running, Loreena Mckennitt singing in the background and whatever else was running so I didn't get the actual plot I was working on.

So, clearly I don't have a clue here from what you are saying. Save me(from myself?) Nisgeis and or JCC!

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

#$%@^^*+!!!

[Nisgeis]

Here is the radar range and bearing right after I turned off the radar.

Here is the protractor marking down the 319° bearing.

and here is the ruler laying out the same 319° bearing

So, clearly I don't have a clue here from what you are saying. Save me(from myself?) Nisgeis and or JCC!

Urge

OK, the radar bearing is a relative bearing, so if it's 319, then that means the target is 41 degrees to your port off the bow. What you're doing there is plotting 319 as an absolute bearing, so you're in effect plotting the wrong position. If you are using the protractor, you need to plot with an angle that is the same as the relative bearing, in the case of 319, that would be 41 degrees to port, so the protractor angle would be 41 degrees, instead of 22 degrees as you have there.

If you want to plot with just the ruler, then you'd need to plot with the True bearing, which is the bearing in relation to North. This involves a bit more mental airthmetic, as you have to factor in your own course, which in that screenshot looks to be 340, to a target at a relative bearing of 319 with an own course of 340, would mean the true bearing to the target was 299.

That's all probably a bit confusing, so why not use the 360 bearing tool that you have installed. As you can see it gives you all the bearings relative to the sub, so you should be plotting along the line that says 319 on the sub bearing ring graphic.

[razark]

If you are using the protractor, you need to plot with an angle that is the same as the relative bearing, in the case of 319, that would be 41 degrees to starboard, so the protractor angle would be 41 degrees, instead of 22 degrees as you have there.
41 degrees to port.

[Nisgeis]

Yes Razark, slip of the fingers :DL.

Here's your diagram annotated to see if this helps:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/PlottingHelp.jpg

Obviously the relative bearing of 337 isn't quite right and probably the angle isn't quite 23 degees on the protractor, as the relative bearing ring is attached you your sub and it's moved forwards a bit, but that's how you would read it if it were in the right place.

[I'm goin' down]

I was with Nisgeis and Urge with respect to their dialogue, but missed the reference to starboard. I did not catch it. But Mr. razark certainly did. Sharp as razor he is, very sharp.

I still want to know how to track the ship to the south in TM 3?

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

Also, I noticed that when I set the course correctly, it seems to change for the target over time. Am I imagining it? Does taking another radar reading screw up the course setting?

I am back to TM4 trying to lock on to the tanker to the NW. I missed my second attempt. i am not sure where I went wrong, but I have its course plotted as 100 degrees, and I think that is pretty close. I plotted its speed at 9.5 kts. from a distance of roughly 7-8000 yds. Later, I used sonar and ended up with 5.5 kts. I will figure it out or die trying.

[Urge]

Thank You Nisgeis. You know part of what screwed me up is the fact that the sub was pointing north when this test mission started so true and relative are the same. Having said that I am still an idiot. Oh well, onward and upward relatively speaking. Or was that truly speaking? I'm so confused...no, no I get it-I think.

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

a good pic like that Nisgeis is worth a thousand words. Nothing can get confused in the translation.

[Nisgeis]

I still want to know how to track the ship to the south in TM 3?

Also, I noticed that when I set the course correctly, it seems to change for the target over time. Am I imagining it? Does taking another radar reading screw up the course setting?

I am back to TM4 trying to lock on to the tanker to the NW. I missed my second attempt. i am not sure where I went wrong, but I have its course plotted as 100 degrees, and I think that is pretty close. I plotted its speed at 9.5 kts. from a distance of roughly 7-8000 yds. Later, I used sonar and ended up with 5.5 kts. I will figure it out or die trying.

It has been mentioned numerous times that if you update the range and bearing then you must check and re-enter the course as entering a new bearing will screw up the course, due to a bug in the TDC.

The first missions are radar training and plotting missons, so they vary i difficulty. The third part of the last mission is the most difficult, as not only is it raining and foggy, but the target to the South (if that's the third target in the blurb) is zig zagging so is not on a steady course. This is designed for you to check your ability to pick up zigs, not really for TDC technique (that's what the TDC mission is for). If you fire from long range and don't keep an eye on when the target last zigged, you may well miss.

a good pic like that Nisgeis is worth a thousand words. Nothing can get confused in the translation.

But you're so good at it.

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'. That's just a note on what the next part is. It's like saying 'And now to mix the ingredients and put the cake in the oven', followed by a detailed list of what ingredients to mix together and how and then putting it in the oven. You wouldn't make the cake twice and end up with two cakes would you? We'll nickname you Two Cakes.

[John Channing]

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?


Are you actually under the impression that I owe you something? I mean aside from the 12+ hours of my scarce personal time I spent putting that tutorial together?

JCC

[Urge]

Nisgeis wrote...No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'.

John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.

Nisgeis wrote in post 127...What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

After I went thru the XTR5 TDC Training mission dozens of times doing it per JCC's tutorial and consistently missing astern. After changing my procedure(per Nisgeis suggestion) to range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on PK, range and bearing,AOB I had consistent hits. I believe anyone following that tutorial to the letter will consistently miss.

Urge

[Nisgeis]

John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.

It doesn't say turn on the PK twice, which is what IGD is talking about. JCC's method works also, but is more time sensitive, so you can't hang about and have to start the PK super quick if there are no more observations (especially if you are moving fast yourself), but as JCC's tutorials also says there is a final observation where you would update the range and bearing and course if the TDC didn't match up.

[Urge]

True, I was just pointing it out because I didn't want anyone to go thru the frustration that I did. And I'm certainly not trying to demean JCC for his tutorial and the hours of hard work he put into it. John, THANK YOU!!!

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight. I would have posted this earlier this evening, but my computer had a meltdown. I had to restore a back up to get windows to work.

First, Channing's tutorial contains 59 screenshots, give or take a couple. That is up there in league with the Mobo tutorial and an Capn' Scurvy's explanation of attacking with map contacts disabled. And what makes this mod really hard is that for some of the practice missions we are relying on radar only because map contacts are disabled and the targets are not visible due to weather, etc. This means if a mistake is made, you cannot be certain what protocol you failed to follow. The 3D TDC mod and its explanation are complex especially for those not familiar with the ins and outs of how the scheme works. You are familiar with it from the inside out. I am not, and rely on your instruction. The number of steps and screenshots used to explain establish its complexity. Those that use this mod will only be advanced players, and I think that has borne out by the few of us that have jumped in to try and master it.

I note that the Solution Solver program is also complex, but gutted provided a two or three part tutorial on You Tube to help explain it. Seeing a visual, real time, of the program in action was extremely helpful, as he clarified issues then and there.

Urge had a problem with relative bearing in connection with his speed calculations. I too have issues with calculating speed, but I believe I am close to resolving it. But it has taken awhile.

You can expect more such questions, several being repetitive, due the mods complexity.

As for my question directed to Channing, no, you do not owe me a damn thing. However, I was misled in screen shot (no. 39, if I counted correctly five hours ago) where you stated, ("The contact's speed now shows as 10 knots in the TDC. (period added.) Now to enter the Range and then start the Position Keeper. (italic, bold and period added.)" Until I read Nisgeis reply to my question, I took the second sentence to mean that this was the point in time to activate the PK. Looking at it in retrospect upon considering Nisgeis reply, I realize that the sentence's meaning is different than I ascribed to it. What you intended to say, and said somewhat indirectly, is closer to this, "The following screenshots will lead to activation of the PK wherein you will finalize the firing solution." I took Channing's quoted instruction literally, and became confused when I subsequently read a second screenshot instruction directing that the PK be activated.

A similar "ambiguity" occurred with the Target dial screenshot of the 3D TDC re the bearing of 338 degrees. The instruction advised to pull the triangle and watch the Target Course triangles move accordingly. I interpreted that to mean that one starts by dragging the Target dial to 338 degrees. I tried it and it did not work. A misreading on my part, but I attribute it to the fact that name of the dials are similar and Channing was discussing moving the triangle on the Target dial to establish course. A second look at the screenshot this evening indicates I misread his direction, but the confusion stemmed from the initial referral to the Target dial in connection with setting a target's course. My confusion can be attributed in part to the fact that my point of reference is the Easy Aob mod, where one adjusts the Aob dial on the stadimeter, with the PK deactivated, to move the "Target" dial on the TDC screen to its correct course.

Finally, a loosely related issue occurred with Urge and the true course/relative course plotting issue. Also, the degree of technical difficulty in cogently explaining this mod without good documentation/screen shots is exemplified in Nisgeis' inadvertent referral to "starboard" versus "port" in his reply post, which had it not been picked up and reported, might have cause someone else fits down the road.

As to the comment that due to a bug in the TDC, course is required to be reset when new bearings are taken, and that the subject as been mentioned previously, I have a simple response. I simply forgot about it. It is another "piece of data," and without the context of setting course, it fell through the cracks. Nor was it mentioned in the tutorial. I am looking at trees right now, and seeing the forest isn't in the cards yet. Others will be doing so in the future and may not read through this thread to uncover all the nuances. There are too many cards on the table, short and simple. I am still trying to remember to set the Attack Dial on Range when I plan to use mod. I am in the midst of the TMs for a reason.

Having said all of the above, I think this mod is an excellent piece of work. Channing's tutorial is quite good, but certain areas require serious contemplation, especially plotting for speed. In the end I think it the mod will be used by a small group of hard core players who are into max realism, who have the patience for it, and who are willing to spend substantial classroom time before using it as a prime attack technique. Using this mod means attacks will take longer, and those interested in tonnage records won't get there quickly playing at this level of realism.

If that doesn't clear the air, I probably have little more to say.

Back to one of my questions. This is for Nisgeis, if you feel like responding. I was mistaken re the TM. I think I said TM 3. I think I may be meaning TM 2, because in this mission the targets are visible. I sank the ship to the NW. I hit the ship to the NE with two torpedoes (see the posted screen shot.) The third ship in TM2, to the south, is the problem. It is heading easterly if I recall, but if I turn the boat in a southerly direction, I do not have time to set up unless I am extremely proficient, which I am not yet. Is there a recommended way to attack this ship? Should I run ahead of it, taking readings as I head eastward?

As for TM3 (this is the one where you cannot see the targets due to weather), I am still trying to sink the ship to the NW. I cannot see it because of the rain. My issue here appears to be target speed, but I should get a good fix on it in the next day or two or three. I am not asking for help on this TM, as once I get a lock on the speed, I should nail it.

[Nisgeis]

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

No hostility here. I was just engaged in a little Mickey taking, but I think JCC's post may have coloured what I put. If I was annoyed with you, I just wouldn't respond :DL. I know you have trouble seeing the wood for the trees, so I've been italicising and emboldening the parts that are the import bits of information, so you can easily pick them out. The really important bits are capitalised as well. It's not me shouting or anything like that.

And what makes this mod really hard is that for some of the practice missions you are relying on radar only due to weather, etc. This means if a mistake is made, you cannot be certain what protocol you failed to follow.

Plot with map contacts on, the controls will all be the same and you'll be able to see what you are doing wrong.

Those that use this mod will only be advanced players, and I think that has borne out by the few of us that have jumped in to try and master it.

I know it's a low take up mod, as i the case with all things that are 'realistic' but harder.

Also, the degree of technical difficulty in cogently explaining this mod without good documentation/screen shots is exemplified in Nisgeis' inadvertent referral to "starboard" versus "port" in his reply post, which had not been picked up, might have cause someone else fits down the road.

I was ninja quoted M'Lord before I could proof read it (I was going to edit it with the ammended screenshot).

I think I said PM 3. I think I meant PM 2, because in this mission the targets are visible. I sank the ship to the NW. I hit the ship to the NE with two torpedoes (see the posted screen shot.) The third ship in PM2, to the south, is the problem. It is heading easterly if I recall, but if I turn the boat in a southerly direction, I do not have time to set up unless I am extremely proficient, which I am not yet. Is there a recommended way to attack this boat? Should I run ahead of it, taking its bearing as I head eastward?

Plot the boat using map contacts on and just marking the map directly on the ship icon and have a look at the course it takes. It will zig zag at random intervals. It's a radar tracking mission, so is designed to test your ability to discern when the target zigs from a bad plot. If you can't discern that the target is zigging, then you need to practise more accurate plotting/radar reading. If you can see by your plot that it's zigging, then you have a chance at sinking it. Your best chance is to manouver your boat into a position where you are close and to wait until it has just zigged and you have the new course. It's not for the faint hearted. The boats may disappear at the end of their waypoints, so you may not have a lot of time, but that's war.

In general, in a real situation, if you need more time, then plot where he is and where he is going and then manouver to a favourable position, e.g. do an end around and lie in wait for him, or paralell his course and try adjusting your speed to keep him at a contant bearing. Don't mess about too much though, as one day you'll track a TF that is going at 1 knot faster than your top speed and if you don't get a handle on the tactical situation pretty quickly, you'll miss your intercept opporutnity.