[REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10

[I'm goin' down]

got it. I think I have worked out all of the issues with the mod. Now it is just a matter of practice. I have become a very good plotter. That last two mission plots had range and bearing readings that plotted in perfectly straight lines. My problem arose later in the first mission, when I overshot the target because I wasn't watching the Nav Map, and on second, repeat mission when my plots for speed calculation indicated the target was on a closer parallel course to the course plotted by four by range and bearing readings. I do not know how, on the second attempt, the target ended up on the parallel course, closer to my boat, so I exited figuring that the solution was bad and I would likely miss the target if I shot at it.

In any event, I think it is a matter of time before I start nailing the targets in TMs. Maybe this weekend...

[Nisgeis]

On some of the targets the courses will be different each time you replay the mission, to give some variability. There should be one straight fixed course, one random course and one zigger.

[I'm goin' down]

I have been rereading your tutorial. I did you notice that you instruct to start the PK, but never instruct to turn it off. (I can live with that instruction.) Further along in the tutorial, you instruct to reenter range and speed. You instruct to turn the PK on a second time. Why would I do that? THE PK IS ON AND HAS NOT BEEN TURN OFF. I think it is a duplicative instruction. Correct me if I am wrong.

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?


Are you actually under the impression that I owe you something? I mean aside from the 12+ hours of my scarce personal time I spent putting that tutorial together?
JCC

Nisgeis wrote...
John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.
Urge

It doesn't say turn on the PK twice, which is what IGD is talking about. JCC's method works also, but is more time sensitive, so you can't hang about and have to start the PK super quick if there are no more observations (especially if you are moving fast yourself), but as JCC's tutorials also says there is a final observation where you would update the range and bearing and course if the TDC didn't match up.

True, I was just pointing it out because I didn't want anyone to go thru the frustration that I did. And I'm certainly not trying to demean JCC for his tutorial and the hours of hard work he put into it. John, THANK YOU!!!
Urge

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

As for my question directed to Channing, no, you do not owe me a damn thing. However, I was misled in screen shot (no. 39, if I counted correctly five hours ago) where you stated, ("The contact's speed now shows as 10 knots in the TDC. (period added.) Now to enter the Range and then start the Position Keeper. (italic, bold and period added.)" Until I read Nisgeis reply to my question, I took the second sentence to mean that this was the point in time to activate the PK. Looking at it in retrospect upon considering Nisgeis reply, I realize that the sentence's meaning is different than I ascribed to it. What you intended to say, and said somewhat indirectly, is closer to this, "The following screenshots will lead to activation of the PK wherein you will finalize the firing solution." I took Channing's quoted instruction literally, and became confused when I subsequently read a second screenshot instruction directing that the PK be activated.


Okay, this is for Urge primarily, as I have addressed Channing in a lengthy post above.

My point to Channing was simple. The chain of quotes above explains how I misinterpreted his tutorial. You apparently did as well. :D Channing take note, for whatever it is worth. The tutorial is good overall, but if you ever decide to revise portions, our questions/comments are good areas to focus on for purposes of clarifying it.

Urge, I believe that Channing was taking his shot at my second quoted post above. He was not taking a shot at you. I can stand on my own two feet. There was no need for you explain yourself or imply an apology. Your position re the PK activation was legitimate. If we are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, at least we are in the same drawer with to some serious steel.

My second quoted post above was terse. Probably overly so. That was unintentional. Channing is likely frustrated because he spent a lot of time on the tutorial, and is likely offended by its tone. Don't let is get to you, John. I am on your side here. I was frustrated due to the fact that I couldn't figure out what you were instructing. I am akin to a church member listening to the gospel.

Anyway, two things now are clear, at least as to Urge and me, and they are that you only turn the PK on once, and that the important reference to it is on the screenshot nearest the end of the tutorial. (The screen shots are not numbered or I would be more specific.)

Goodnight! I am going to bed.:yawn: My computer has been down most of the day, I lost a month's worth of emails when I restored my back up fliles, and, worst of all, I got in no practice missions for the 3D TDC mod as a consequence.

[Urge]

IGD wrote...I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

Excuse me? I don't even know what you are talking about here.

IGD wrote...The chain of quotes above explains how I misinterpreted his tutorial. You apparently did as well.

I am going to let these quotes largely speak for themselves.

Nisgeis wrote... Quote:
Are you sure you are following the tutorial exactly, E.G. when you enter a new range and bearing you reset the course as well back to 338?
I am being very consistent, I enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing, AOB and turn on the PK. The green and white radar ranges match up right after I turn it on... Urge

Nisgeis wrote...Post up a screenshot of the TDC at the moment you fire the torpedoes and I'll see if I can spot anything wrong. Right after you enter the info it will all agree, so there must be something that's happening later on to make the solution innaccurate.
BTW, why are you entering the Raneg and bearing and AOB twice?

Urge wrote...
because that is what is says to do in the tutorial.

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Nisgeis wrote...
What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

The idea is to update the TDC every now and then with new information if it is different and try to use the differences to identify course and speed changes. The first setup is a problem though as the data will be old by the time the PK is turned on, so you need to update it with the fresh info.




John Channing's tutorial states that you should enter range and bearing-AOB-speed-range and bearing again-AOB again-turn on PK




John Channing wrote...
The position keeper will take the data you have entered and continuously update itself. As the contact draws closer the range will count down, the bearing will change, the positional relationship between your boat and the contact will change, but the course will stay the same.

It is NOT tracking the contact, it is updating the data you sent it. If the Contact changes course or speed you will have to update the data.

You now have a solution running and the contact has changed status to a target.

If your solution tracks correctly by watching this screen you can make adjustments to your course and speed to get into a perfect firing position.


As this was a test mission and I knew that none of the parameters were going to change it did not occur to me to update the TDC because I did not think it to be necessary. Now I will update any solution periodically as I see that it can only help.

IGD wrote...Urge, I believe that Channing was taking his shot at my second quoted post above. He was not taking a shot at you. I can stand on my own two feet. There was no need for you explain yourself or imply an apology.

Where are you getting this from??? It is clear that John was a little upset at your attitude of entitlement. My comments were offered as a suggestion to hopefully make a difficult mod a little clearer. I wasn't apologizing, who would I apologize to and for what?

Dazed and Confused,
Urge

[I'm goin' down]

It is impossible for me to mult-quote a response to your post (#254). I tried and failed.

I assumed that both Nisgeis and Channing, collectively, expressed hostility to my posts. See posts ##244 - 247, inclusive, and 249. In post 250 Nisgeis notes that he was not pissed off.

(BTW, in post #244, Nisgeis explains why Channing is not making a duplicate reference to activating the TDC, nor was Channing mistakenly instructing us to activate the TDC twice. Nisgeis states as follows with respect to my question on the subject: "No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'. That's just a note on what the next part [of the tutorial] is [about]." (brackets supplied.] Channing's use of the words "Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper," while not the most precise, is his instruction that the next series of screenshots will detail the steps the reader must follow to enter the range.)

As for your response to my post re your post not constituting an apology, I interpreted it as verging on one. I assumed, apparently mistakenly, you thought that Channing was ticked off across the board, and wanted to duck the fire. If that was not the case, fine by me.

I think that does it. I think we have killed this puppy.

[I'm goin' down]

I played TM 3 re the boat to the south. I think I plotted its zigs pretty accurately. I drew a course line. I had not moved my boat at all during the tracking and left map contacts on to verify that I was in the ball park with the plots. By the time of the last plot, it was pulling away in an ENE direction at roughly 6,000 yds.

Then I got ambitious. Since the target will still SE of my position, I decided to head due west, thinking I could run parallel to its course, ultimately gettng ahead of it with the aim of sinking it about 20 miles away. That did not work, as I quickly (within 5 minutes) found out. Either that boat, or a potential target to the NE, spotted my sub and fired on it. When I checked the Nav Map re their respective positions, both had turned directly away from my new course. Both must have spotted my boat. The target to the south had changed course to due south. Catching it would have been next to impossible in the short term, plus my original course plot for that target was now useless. I gave up. But, I did do a reasonable job at plotting its zigging course per the tutorial. It was good practice to plot it.

So, I am through with TM 3. TM 4 is going to be a bitch, as I have tried it twice with map contacts off. I will give it a couple more shots with map contacts off. If I fail, then I will turn map contacts on and try my skill.

[I'm goin' down]

After a couple of hours of plotting I hit the slow tanker coming in from the NW in TM #4 with two torpedoes. This is the training mission mission where you cannot see the target due to fog and rain. I played with map contacts on. It was not easy, took a long time, and if the target had not been moving slowly I would have failed.

I experienced three problems.

First, my plots for speed did not line up with my six or seven plots of the target's course (109 degrees.) They were not drastically off.

Second, I calculated the target speed at 4 kts. I would be interested to know if that is correct. I find it difficult to trust the range reading for my second speed plot, because I spent time sending the plot to the TDC, which added time before I laid the plot down on the Nav Map. I do not know how to figure in the extra time, so I just went by the 3 minute rule, which is when I read the second range and bearing. I probably should have added 15 seconds but that would have reduced the target's speed below 4 kts. and it did not seem like a good idea.

I adjusted the range when the target was close via sonar.

The third problem almost did me in. I plotted range and bearing on both speed plots, and sent them to the TDC. As has been explained in other posts, that means the target's course must be reentered. Because the target was around 2,000 yds. when I transmitted the range and bearing for these plots to the TDC, its Aob began to change rapidly as it approached firing range. As a result, the Target Course dial on the 3D TDC began to rotate quickly, and I could not hold it in position to reset the course precisely to 109 degrees. I ended up getting the course set close enough as it turned out. The situation created a little angst.

I fired 6 shots at 1,000 yds. with a spread on all but two torpedoes. I had two hits. I tried to capture the second contact via a screenshot, but failed. Other than the explosions, I never got a visual on the target.

Tough mod to use when the target is obscured.

[I'm goin' down]

I just finished the second part of TM No. 4 (the cation says TM No. 3, but it is incorrect). This is the attack on the tanker coming from the north east in the fog and rain. I plotted its course as 219 degree, and speed at 10 kts.

I thought I was too close to the course line again, but my speed plots indicated otherwise. I fired six torpedoes. Four contacts-- after what seemed an eternity (probably 30 seconds). Two missed shots. The sonar man did not announce the hits, but I saw the water splashing at a distance despite the rain, and heard two muffled explosions. I played this mission with map contacts disabled. I think I am getting the hang of the 3D TDC and JC's tutorial. It hasn't been a joy ride, but 4 for 6 makes me believe I am on the right track.

Quite an interesting mod. A real advance over the sonar only attack from the Werner Sobe tutorial.

I did not use sonar on this attack run. I did not have time. I got my final solution input when the target was around 1800 yds. to port. I set up for a broadside and fired torpedoes when the Aob reading on the TDC on the periscope screen indicated the target was at 80 degrees. I had a 1/2 degree torpedo spread right and left. Again I had to struggle getting the course input after the final readings due to the close proximity of the target. I simply did not have time to plot the speed readings earlier, as I had to repeat my speed calculations as I made an error that first time, and that cost me valuable time (6 minutes +). There is a definite risk in waiting to transmit the final readings of range and bearing to the TDC. If the target is close to the firing point it become very difficult to input the correct course to the TDC because the target's Aob is changing with rapidity (in plain English, the Target Course dial begins rotate rapidly as the target's Aob changes, thus making it damn near impossible to line up the two triangles on the Target Course dial with any projected (i.e. "planned") course. Reason: By the time the triangles on the Target Course dial are in their appropriate position, the triangles and the Target Course dial have rotated out of that position because the Aob of the target is rapidly changing!). This makes it difficult to capture the true course on the Target Course dial on the 3D TDC and transmit it to the TDC via the stadimeter. I was lucky in that regard. If the target were at a range of 2,500 yds. or more, I probably would not have experienced a problem, as the Aob would have been adjusting to the target's course more slowly. [Sheesh! that is a hard concept to express in print.] It is a nuance that Nisgeis is probably appreciates already, and possibly JC as well. Until I saw it happening and had time to think about it, I had no idea it could factor into attack planning.

Just to be sure, as to the third part of this TM (No. 4), does it only involve a plotting exercise of the zigging course? The introduction to the mission states the objective is to sink all the targets. I think it would be impossible to sink the third target, because it closes quite quickly, and with no visual contact, one would have to be very proficient with the mod, plus have a degree of luck to get the shots off with any accuracy, let alone hit or sink it. If the mission is to sink the target, I will probably pass -- too tough.

I have one more TM left. It is the TDC training mission. I have tried it twice. The first time I did something wrong, and the target sailed off in a direction I did not expect. It quickly disappeared over the horizon!! The second time my shots missed aft of the target. I did not measure range with the stadimeter range tool on the second attempt. I set range via sonar as the target closed. I must have made a minor error as it appeared that course and speed were input properly. I fired at 1350 yds. and at an Aob of 82 degress. This TM should be easier than the others, and I should have probably tackled it first. I will figure it out tomorrow, hopefully. Then I can take my new skills into a career, and stop with the questions.

[Nisgeis]

Just to be sure, as to the third part of this TM (No. 4), does it only involve a plotting exercise of the zigging course? The introduction to the mission states the objective is to sink all the targets. I think it would be impossible to sink the third target, because it closes quite quickly, and with no visual contact, one would have to be very proficient with the mod, plus have a degree of luck to get the shots off with any accuracy, let alone hit or sink it.

You should be able to establish a rough base course a few degrees off won't matter very much, especially if you are firing at a low gyro angle. If you aren't sure of the course or speed, but think you are in the right ballpark, use 150% or even 200% spreads and you should get hits.

[Mescator]

Hello Again.

Not entirely relevant to training, but given this mod was a integral part of the last 6 hours of SH i've played i thought i'd share. The weather conditions were poor with strong wind's, Fog and heavily overcast clouds. Visibility was probably 800 or so yards for the majority of the chase and way less for the finale.

Playing TMO 2.0 With RSRDC, i just started a patrol from Fremantle in late '43. Heading north, my Patrol area was just past the Formosa straight, so i slipped past java towards my Objective. Early morning; my Radar operator called to me. Initially concerned it was a plane, a few minutes of sneaking closer revealed a 5 ship group shaped like a cross.

Not like any merchant convoy i'd seen, i began plotting their course. My suspicions were confirmed when i plotted a 18 Knot speed. I immediately went ahead flank in order to keep up with the group and what followed was the most intense chase and pursuit i've ever undertaken in SH.

Clearing the straight near Java, i was positioned east of the convoy, something that would come back to haunt me. Due to the heavy wave action, the convoy was moving at a sober pace and my Balao was forcing through at between 16 - 19 Knots. To complicate matters, i was about 10nm away or closer and one of the DD's kept hearing my prop's and coming to investigate, so i used the time to go under and listen on the Hydrophone to check my radar bearings etc, Final confirmation also came on target type after this first check as the prop noises were distinctly large warship and DD props.

Kept going north along the east of Borneo and without warning the convoy turned North west, effectively losing the ground i had made up with my 1 knot advantage which was already stretched thin.

Chasing the convoy along the coast, it again turned, this time towards Borneo. Checking my map, a base was marked, however the convoy was heading on a angle to the coast, rather than at the base. I guessed they would turn and head directly as they neared, a hypothesis that turned to be correct.

I'd been fiddling with the TDC for the entire trip, but never had a small enough range to accurately plot a course considering i'd spent all this time just keeping up. Having predicted the course, i was now in a favorable firing position, or as favorable as i was going to get.

So, i started plotting the course and with something of a shock realized the sun had set and i was now operating at night in fog. I couldn't see the front of my boat, let alone confirm things visually. This was an issue, because although i had done in training missions, I'd never really been 100% and was now using it against a real enemy. Not just a Merchant either.

Anyway, i plotted my solution, got it accurate and sounded battle stations before running at the targets at flank speed. Sadly i hadn't anticipated a target of this Value and was running 3x MK14, 2XMK18 and a cutie to engage merchant shipping. With no spare tubes i couldn't unload the latter 3 and replace them with the more powerful Mark 14's, but life is like that.

Once i was at 3900 yards i fired all tubes at spread angles of - 5, - 2, 0, + 2 + 5. The cutey i shot out to the side to take a DD on hopefully. Curious to see what i had been tracking, i went freecamera and looked. An Escort Carrier and a Fleet carrier, with my torps running at the big one.

Sadly my solution had a 50 Yard range error i'd forgotten to correct for with extra spread and as i fired the torpedo's i realized in shallower water the waves had lessened, resulting in a small speed increase on the Convoy.

All my torpedo's passed JUST astern, the +5 Spread literally just missed the rear of the big carrier. Hindsight is a bitch like that, if i'd just got out of the habit of trusting the accuracy of my visual solutions and put more spread on or noticed my sub had picked up a knot or 2 i would have scored hits.

Still, IMMENSELY satisfying to know i understand the TDC well enough to plot a solution with it and even moreso to know my solution was accurate. I now grapple with the urge to load my previous night's save and send it to the bottom using illgained knowledge or to continue on my patrol since i intended to play dead as dead and not load saves on this one. What would you guys do?

Also, big thanks to both Nisgeis and John Channing, both for the mod and the help you've provided. Took a while to get the hang of it but your tutorial was invaluable and the mod is priceless.

[I'm goin' down]

I have one more TM left. It is the TDC training mission. I have tried it twice. The first time I did something wrong, and the target sailed off in a direction I did not expect. It quickly disappeared over the horizon!! The second time my shots missed aft of the target. I did not measure range with the stadimeter range tool on the second attempt. I set range via sonar as the target closed. I must have made a minor error as it appeared that course and speed were input properly. I fired at 1350 yds. and at an Aob of 82 degress. This TM should be easier than the others, and I should have probably tackled it first. I will figure it out tomorrow, hopefully. Then I can take my new skills into a career, and stop with the questions.

You should be able to establish a rough base course a few degrees off won't matter very much, especially if you are firing at a low gyro angle. If you aren't sure of the course or speed, but think you are in the right ballpark, use 150% or even 200% spreads and you should get hits.

I swallowed my pride and took one more shot at it. I was right the first time. This TM is quite tough and does not permit errors or delays in setting up. One has little chance of success if one has to correct or repeat one step, because the target is on top of the sub too quickly. And that is what happened to me. The target passed a bearing zero degrees, and I still had tasks to complete. I got a speed reading of 19 kts. and that is when I knew I had no chance. The target was pulling away at an Aob that was too steep.

This mission is too advanced for me, at least at this stage. It was a good lesson though. I learned my limitations in using the mod. I will practice in TMO 2.0, and one day come back and try it again--after awhile.

I am pretty much through with learning about the mod. I have a few tasks left. I have to figure out what some of the red dials signify on the 3D TDC, but I think they are explained in your posts. Also, I see two triangles sometimes on the A scope screen, but the dark one seem useless. I will see if that is explained as well, as I recall that it was. I recall a discussion about tying a digital readout of something to the program but forget what it was. That seemed like a good idea at the time. Those are my specific comments re the unit itself. My other comments litter this thread. You should be proud of this mod. The tutorial is good, too. The mod enhances the game and the skill of those that use it. Thanks for you patience while I learned how to use it.:salute:

[John Channing]

Hello Again.

Not entirely relevant to training, but given this mod was a integral part of the last 6 hours of SH i've played i thought i'd share. The weather conditions were poor with strong wind's, Fog and heavily overcast clouds. Visibility was probably 800 or so yards for the majority of the chase and way less for the finale.

Playing TMO 2.0 With RSRDC, i just started a patrol from Fremantle in late '43. Heading north, my Patrol area was just past the Formosa straight, so i slipped past java towards my Objective. Early morning; my Radar operator called to me. Initially concerned it was a plane, a few minutes of sneaking closer revealed a 5 ship group shaped like a cross.

Not like any merchant convoy i'd seen, i began plotting their course. My suspicions were confirmed when i plotted a 18 Knot speed. I immediately went ahead flank in order to keep up with the group and what followed was the most intense chase and pursuit i've ever undertaken in SH.

Clearing the straight near Java, i was positioned east of the convoy, something that would come back to haunt me. Due to the heavy wave action, the convoy was moving at a sober pace and my Balao was forcing through at between 16 - 19 Knots. To complicate matters, i was about 10nm away or closer and one of the DD's kept hearing my prop's and coming to investigate, so i used the time to go under and listen on the Hydrophone to check my radar bearings etc, Final confirmation also came on target type after this first check as the prop noises were distinctly large warship and DD props.

Kept going north along the east of Borneo and without warning the convoy turned North west, effectively losing the ground i had made up with my 1 knot advantage which was already stretched thin.

Chasing the convoy along the coast, it again turned, this time towards Borneo. Checking my map, a base was marked, however the convoy was heading on a angle to the coast, rather than at the base. I guessed they would turn and head directly as they neared, a hypothesis that turned to be correct.

I'd been fiddling with the TDC for the entire trip, but never had a small enough range to accurately plot a course considering i'd spent all this time just keeping up. Having predicted the course, i was now in a favorable firing position, or as favorable as i was going to get.

So, i started plotting the course and with something of a shock realized the sun had set and i was now operating at night in fog. I couldn't see the front of my boat, let alone confirm things visually. This was an issue, because although i had done in training missions, I'd never really been 100% and was now using it against a real enemy. Not just a Merchant either.

Anyway, i plotted my solution, got it accurate and sounded battle stations before running at the targets at flank speed. Sadly i hadn't anticipated a target of this Value and was running 3x MK14, 2XMK18 and a cutie to engage merchant shipping. With no spare tubes i couldn't unload the latter 3 and replace them with the more powerful Mark 14's, but life is like that.

Once i was at 3900 yards i fired all tubes at spread angles of - 5, - 2, 0, + 2 + 5. The cutey i shot out to the side to take a DD on hopefully. Curious to see what i had been tracking, i went freecamera and looked. An Escort Carrier and a Fleet carrier, with my torps running at the big one.

Sadly my solution had a 50 Yard range error i'd forgotten to correct for with extra spread and as i fired the torpedo's i realized in shallower water the waves had lessened, resulting in a small speed increase on the Convoy.

All my torpedo's passed JUST astern, the +5 Spread literally just missed the rear of the big carrier. Hindsight is a bitch like that, if i'd just got out of the habit of trusting the accuracy of my visual solutions and put more spread on or noticed my sub had picked up a knot or 2 i would have scored hits.

Still, IMMENSELY satisfying to know i understand the TDC well enough to plot a solution with it and even moreso to know my solution was accurate. I now grapple with the urge to load my previous night's save and send it to the bottom using illgained knowledge or to continue on my patrol since i intended to play dead as dead and not load saves on this one. What would you guys do?

Also, big thanks to both Nisgeis and John Channing, both for the mod and the help you've provided. Took a while to get the hang of it but your tutorial was invaluable and the mod is priceless.

I would not only re-load that bad boy but I would play it over and over again.

If you can find a copy of "Shinano: The Sinking of Japan's Secret Supership" by Enright, Joseph F, and James W. Ryan (ISBN 0-312-97746-8 (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312977468)) pick it up. It's a great read and parts of it are going to seem strangely familiar to you.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

I am trying to figure out celestial navigation. Not only will I not see the enemy on radar with map contacts off, I won't see my boat either. That ought to be interesting. I am stocking up on supplies (extra beer and pretzels) in case I get lost. (p.s. I know nothing about celestial navigation, except I can identify orion's belt, the moon and the Big Dipper).

[Mescator]

I would not only re-load that bad boy but I would play it over and over again.

If you can find a copy of "Shinano: The Sinking of Japan's Secret Supership" by Enright, Joseph F, and James W. Ryan (ISBN 0-312-97746-8 (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312977468)) pick it up. It's a great read and parts of it are going to seem strangely familiar to you.

Shall do tonight i think =P

Thanks for the book recommendation as well. I've read about the Shinano briefly, a book on the boat and her sinking would be great.

[Roger Dodger]

I am trying to figure out celestial navigation. (p.s. I know nothing about celestial navigation, except I can identify orion's belt, the moon and the Big Dipper).

Follow the two bucket stars in the Big Dipper. They point right at Polaris, the North Star. There are few other stars around Polaris, and its about 3rd or 4th magnatude (meaning its not the brightest star in the sky). Its lonleyness makes it easier to see.

Once you find Polaris, Latitude is simple to figure with a sextant. For Longitude, you need a real accurate clock. . . . but I haven't quite figured that one out myself.

Good Hunting

[Nisgeis]

Once i was at 3900 yards i fired all tubes at spread angles of - 5, - 2, 0, + 2 + 5. The cutey i shot out to the side to take a DD on hopefully. Curious to see what i had been tracking, i went freecamera and looked. An Escort Carrier and a Fleet carrier, with my torps running at the big one.

Nice story Mescator, I'd definately have another go at it, as it's a challenging target. How are you getting your spread angles to use? Have you seen this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144202. It gives you a quick and easy way of calculating what spreads you can use and what not to use. If it's blind firing, you'd have to guess at the target length, but it helps all the same.

[Mescator]

How are you getting your spread angles to use? Have you seen this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144202. It gives you a quick and easy way of calculating what spreads you can use and what not to use. If it's blind firing, you'd have to guess at the target length, but it helps all the same.

Because i couldn't see the target the spread was simply there incase i made a error in the solution and to allow multiple strikes if i was accurate. I didn't even think of using a tool like that to get accurate spread ;)

I'm so used to plotting a accurate visual solution i'd gotten into a habit of expecting impacts, so my spreads are usually fairly small. On reflection given my lack of concrete knowledge on the target i should have used a larger spread (Say -10, -5, 0, +5, +10).

Still, i'll have a fiddle with that mod. Looks fantastic for dealing with some of the bigger warships. Thanks for the link :salute:

[sergei]

How are you getting your spread angles to use? Have you seen this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144202. It gives you a quick and easy way of calculating what spreads you can use and what not to use.

Oh wow, thanks Nisgeis.
I somehow missed that one first time around.
Very useful.
I've always calculated my spread angles using the 'by guess and by golly' method, with somewhat mediocre results.

I believe the real TDC could calculate spread angles for you, for a given target length?
(Or 200 or 300% of the target length if one was unsure of ones solution).
I'm sure I read you saying somewhere that it's not possible to put that into our TDC, so this chart is a very nice alternative.

[Nisgeis]

Don't make the spreads too wide, or you may have the target sail inbetween the torpedoes. If you can work out the angular width of the target, you can use that as a maximum spread between individual torpedoes.

[sharkbit]

Have you seen this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144202. It gives you a quick and easy way of calculating what spreads you can use and what not to use. If it's blind firing, you'd have to guess at the target length, but it helps all the same.

Boy, I missed that one too. Thanks.

I haven't been playing SH(3 or 4) for a couple of months now, but ever since your 3D TDC mod came out, I've been feeling the urge growing again. I really want to give this mod a shot. Surely it can't be as difficult as it is made out to be. It does look like a challenge though.

:)

[sergei]

Using the radar to track and plot a contact is pretty simple (and very satisfying).
I got pretty good at it with just 2 or 3 practice missions.

It's when you start playing around with the 3d TDC that it looks like it gets complex.
I don't have time to play with the TDC at the moment, I'm frying fish somewhere else. :03:

I would say, start off just using the radar for plotting, and attack in your usual way.
When you have a handle on that, then maybe start using the TDC.

[I'm goin' down]

I used the Torpedo Spread Angle Calculator. The only problem was that it overrode and replaced the Nomograph on the Nav Map. It is a hard choice between the two mods. I opted for the Nomograph, but others may prefer the spread angle calculator.

[sergei]

Hmmm, I really am not going to give up the nomograph.

Let me take a look at the menu.ini entries, there may be a way of having both.

EDIT: There should be, as the nomo is on the nav map, and the spread calculator is on the attack map.
I'll take a look tomorrow.

[I'm goin' down]

sergei, I haven't tried reinstalling the torpedo angle calculator mod recently, but I did do it twice a long time ago with similar results. A solution might be to print a copy of the spread angle calculator, and keep the Nomograph. Printing a nomograph would cause problems for me, because I draw lines on it on the Nav Map when I need to use it. I would go through a lot of paper if I used a printed copy.

The 3D TDC mod may overwrite the Easy Aob as well. So here is how I intend to deal with it. I activate these two mods last, in the following order. 1. Easy Aob. 2. 3D TDC. When I am in a boat without radar, I deactivate the 3D TDC mod, leaving Easy Aob intact. When I use a boat with radar (currently a Gato or Balao), I reativate the 3D TDC mod. Its the best of both worlds under the circumstances. Of course, this assumes that the 3D TDC overwrites the Easy Aob, but so far it looks that way.

I am in Leyete Gulf on October 18, 1944. I have a large Jap invasion force, at least 15 ships, on radar at a range of 30,000 yds. and am tracking it thanks to Nisgeis and John Channing. There are a lot of ships coming down the pike, and (chewing gingerly on my fingernails), I do not see any friendlies (big gulp). (Or, in the words of Rocky in the ring for his return match with Mr. T, after the champ said "I am going to but your up.": "Go for it." The world is wondering where Task Force 39 (Halsey) is?

[Nisgeis]

EDIT: There should be, as the nomo is on the nav map, and the spread calculator is on the attack map.
I'll take a look tomorrow.

Have a look at the readme.txt included in the mod, or just print out a copy and use that for a conflict free experience.

[sergei]

Yeah, I saw the readme.
IGD, if you follow the readme instructions and edit your own menu.ini rather than using the one provided it will not break the nomo.

[I'm goin' down]

I ran into two huge convoys at leyete gulf 0n Ocbober 18, 1944. The problem is too many ships. I think I got close to the first convoy's course, but did not get close enough to the see any ships. I cannot see a damn thing. It is 3 a.m. in the battle.

My plan is (the second convoy is coming) to ID some ships ships in the convoy and take one or more down using manual range. The problem is that is tough to get a fix with Ducimus' night periscopes. I cannot use the 3D TDC because there are too many ships in the convoy for me to get a fix on any particular one, although I did rely on it for course and speed calculations. If I can ID a ship, I can get its aspect ratio and range if I get close enough. I have course (approx.) and speed.

If I spot a target in the convoy and have its bearing, I should be able to pick up its range on sonar. If I send it that range to the TDC, assuming I have course and speed, that should land me a strike with a torpedo, right?

Any tips?

This has taken several hours, but I have saved the mission.

[I'm goin' down]

where is the torpedo spread angle calculator mod download site? I no longer have the mod.

[I'm goin' down]

The second fleet came upon me. There were plenty of them. All US warships! !@#$%!!!

[sergei]

where is the torpedo spread angle calculator mod download site? I no longer have the mod.

The link is in post No.266.

[I'm goin' down]

Thanks.:salute:

[I'm goin' down]

Yeah, I saw the readme.
IGD, if you follow the readme instructions and edit your own menu.ini rather than using the one provided it will not break the nomo.

I tried it. I did not work. I am a novice at this stuff, so you may want to try it yourself. I might have done it wrong.

[Mescator]

I would not only re-load that bad boy but I would play it over and over again.

Just an update for ya. Had to load it about 5 times over the last 2 nights. Minor mistakes on my part as i got frustrated caused misses and tonight i had a absolutely INFURIATING experience with 2 Dud torpedoes. Turned them on for this patrol to give them a go and had 2 mark 14's impact but fail to detonate.

I got her in the end though, torpedo impacted 13 Feet under, actually hit the base of the command tower as it goes down the hull. Catastrophic explosions down the length of the hull followed and i bagged a 27,000 Ton Hiyo Class Fleet Carrier :)

[Nisgeis]

Well done Mescator! Very annoying when your spend all that time and then have duds.

[timmyg00]

here's a dumb question that has probably been answered somewhere among the many pages of this thread... once i have the mod installed and i am playing a mission... how do i GET to the 3D TDC?

I can see the radar stuff just fine...

Thanks

TG

[Mescator]

here's a dumb question that has probably been answered somewhere among the many pages of this thread... once i have the mod installed and i am playing a mission... how do i GET to the 3D TDC?

There's a few methods depending on what mods your running.

The most reliable is simply double clicking the radar button on the command bar and it should take you to it.

Alternatively, a free camera will let you move to it while your in the conning tower and TMO (Not sure about stock/RFB) let's you click on the hatch to the conning tower.

[timmyg00]

There's a few methods depending on what mods your running.

The most reliable is simply double clicking the radar button on the command bar and it should take you to it.

Alternatively, a free camera will let you move to it while your in the conning tower and TMO (Not sure about stock/RFB) let's you click on the hatch to the conning tower.
Thanks, I will try to double-click on the radar button. Due to graphics issues (crashes!) with RFB, i have limited my mods to RSRDC, 3000yd bearing plotter, Show_Air_Contacts, and finally, 3D TDC. Unfortunately the 3D TDC causes some noticeable FPS lag as well, but so far it is tolerable. I guess my portable's (so-called gaming laptop) video card is not up to handling the graphics mods. I'm lucky to be able to play SH4 at all, i guess! It's a shame, because i love what i have seen with regard to graphics in some of these mods!!

TG

[timmyg00]

Thanks, I will try to double-click on the radar button. TG I tried... didn't work... any other suggestions?

thx

TG

[Roger Dodger]

I tried... didn't work... any other suggestions?

thx

TG

What class of boat are you driving? If double-clicking on the RADAR button doesn't work, and clicking on the Conning Tower Hatch doesn't work, and the mod has been properly installed, that leaves only one answer:

3D TDC will ONLY work with Gato or Balao class subs.

The TDC is there with other class subs, but you have to move to it with the free camera, and I don't think you can get any useful info from it, nor make any settings on it.

Good Hunting

[timmyg00]

I am driving a Balao, and according to the training and screenies at the beginning of this thread, you can move certain dials to enter information into the TDC.

thanks.

TG

[John Channing]

Try right clicking your mouse from the radar screen.

JCC

[Roger Dodger]

I am driving a Balao, and according to the training and screenies at the beginning of this thread, you can move certain dials to enter information into the TDC.

thanks.

TG

So far, so good. You're at least using the right class sub. Double-clicking the RADAR button or clicking on the Conning Tower hatch should take you right to the 3D TDC screen. I'm still using auto-targeting, but its working for me. If you are using auto-targeting, you can't make any direct inputs to the TDC (but it is fun just to watch the dials spin around).

Check your Options. To get full use out of the 3D TDC, you need to have MANUAL TARGETING ON (or auto-targeting off - I forget). When you get really good with it, turn the Map Contacts OFF. I'm pretty sure that you need to set your options BEFORE you start your mission (maybe before you even choose the mission).

With Manual Targetting ON, some of the TDC inputs can be done on the Periscope and Attack Map screens with the ATTACK DATA TOOL (the gizmo at the upper right of the screen) rather than the TDC itself. Not as accurate, though, since the dials are much smaller, but you don't have to switch screens as much.

Hope this helps.

[timmyg00]

OO-RAH, thanks guys!! Both the right-click and the conning tower hatch thing worked great!

TG

[Armistead]

The more I use this mod with contacts off, it's just amazing. It adds so much to the game.

Now, just mod online play that I can have some friends inside my sub. Be cool to have a few friends working inside the sub with me doing all the math....

Shame they didn't add that method of online play.....it's in so many games.

[razark]

Bump!
(Because this just really deserves it.)

See also:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170944
(for this great mod)

[KapitanDP]

Hello all,
I hope someone can help me. I downloaded Nisgeis' Radar and TDC Training Missions v1.02 and have a problem with two of the missions. Radar Training Part One and TDC Training Part One both say "Unknown" under the Sub type column in Submarine School. Also, there are no listed subs to choose in the drop down. The other three missions are just fine.

Also, I moved those two missions to the Quick Mission folder and they both work???

Any help would be appreciated. TIA

KDP

[I'm goin' down]

Hello all,
I hope someone can help me. I downloaded Nisgeis' Radar and TDC Training Missions v1.02 and have a problem with two of the missions. Radar Training Part One and TDC Training Part One both say "Unknown" under the Sub type column in Submarine School. Also, there are no listed subs to choose in the drop down. The other three missions are just fine.

Also, I moved those two missions to the Quick Mission folder and they both work???

Any help would be appreciated. TIA

KDP

I think I might be able to help. I am not sure. I too played the practice missions. However, if I recall, I activated the missions via JGSME. If my recollection is correct that may solve your problem. If not, my apologies.

This is one terrific mod by the way. I went wild when I sunk one of the tarining mission target's via radar using radar under weather conditions that rendered a view of the target impossiible. The only other targeting mod that comes close in PTO is Capn Scurvy's Optical Targeting Correction which was recently released, but for it to be effective, you need a target view. In OM, the KIUB mod is similar to the OTC mod, but agian, it is only effective if you can view the target. Unfortunately, I do not believe the the 3D TDC mod and OTC mod are compatible.

Waves to Nisgeis!

[KapitanDP]

I think I might be able to help. I am not sure. I too played the practice missions. However, if I recall, I activated the missions via JGSME. If my recollection is correct that may solve your problem. If not, my apologies.

This is one terrific mod by the way. I went wild when I sunk one of the tarining mission target's via radar using radar under weather conditions that rendered a view of the target impossiible. The only other targeting mod that comes close in PTO is Capn Scurvy's Optical Targeting Correction which was recently released, but for it to be effective, you need a target view. In OM, the KIUB mod is similar to the OTC mod, but agian, it is only effective if you can view the target. Unfortunately, I do not believe the the 3D TDC mod and OTC mod are compatible.

Waves to Nisgeis!


Goin' Down,

Thanks for your input but I got the same result using JSGME. :damn: The same two missions won't allow me to select a sub class in the submarine school. I tried looking at the ".MIS" files for those two missions to see if I could find a problem but I just don't know enough about what I am looking at to help my situation. I tried changing a few numbers but that didn't help either.

Hopefully, someone here will be able to identify the problem. :wah:

KDP

[KapitanDP]

Ok, I finally got the two files to work in Sub School :yeah: For anyone who cares, here is what needs to be done:

Both of the ".MIS" files must use the date 19430601 for CfgDate, GameEntryDate, and AvailStartDate. When these are changed, the Balao sub is available for the mission. Also, I noticed that the ".TSR" files had a problem. When you check the Captain's Log or at the end of the mission, the "Objective" was listed incorrectly. They said something like, "RT4_Objective Name". If you go to the ".TSR" file and change the line, "RT2_Objective Name=RT4 Objective Name" to "RT2_Objective Name=Sink Ship using manual TDC targeting" or similar, it will then display correctly. :rock:

This is in no way a negative shot at the author of these files. Everyone can make a small mistake. I am just a bit anal and refused to rest until I could make these two missions work in the Sub School area. I thank you for creating these missions so they can be used by the whole community :salute:

KDP

[Bilge_Rat]

bump

essential reading.

could this be stickied? too important to be lost.