OM vs GWX

[jaxa]

I'd like to try OM for playing campaign. I was always a big GWX admirer and I want to know if these two mods are similar or not, in which case better is GWX and in which case OM. Could you compare it?

[Gorshkov]

You have "SHIV+OM+OMEGU" attached to your signature and you did not play OM campaign???

[Sailor Steve]

I play both. SH4 is a much better starting point. It has far better graphics, vastly better crew management, better radio management, a playable radio as well as the gramophone; it loads faster and is more stable.

OM as a campaign is as good as anything made for SH3. The only thing lacking is all the goodies that come from a large team. SH4 still lacks the cool harbors and every other piece of eye candy that is still being made today.

SH3 goes way beyond any supermod these days. If you're not using FlakMonkey's New Interiors and Diving Duck's latest Open Hatch and the Open Conning Tower Hatch mods, along with the New Wilhelmshaven mod you're really missing out. If those things appeal to you stick with SH3 (I do).

If the things SH4+OM+OMEGU bring to the table appeal to you then play OM (I do).

If people were modding SH4 the way they keep modding SH3 I would put 3 on the shelf and never look back.

That's really about it.

[Gorshkov]

In the last OM version there is lack of compatibility with RFB and TMO supermods. For people who wanna play both sides at the same time without switching supermods with JSGME it can be some drawback because enabling/disabling OM+OMEGU mods take a lot of time.

You should also read first lurker's post in OM and OMEGU threads. He summarized there both mods limitations. There are four most important of them:

- mission tasks are often badly linked to Kriegsmarine's grid map

- C02 still raises during snorkel operation

- Elektrobots' range/speed performance is wrong

- you cannot close to major US/UK harbors during campaign game-play due to CTD

One may like or not Karamazov's targeting system mod (similar to OLC GUI) included in OMEGU but it is impossible to disable it without disabling entire OMEGU mod.

On the other hand SH3 is simply an older game - graphics is much worse, loading times with GWX and other badly needed mods are awfully long, 16:10 wide-screen support does not exist at the time. I installed SH3+GWX3 a few days ago to have a look at both but I honesty think SH4 is much better so I uninstalled SH3 completely. As for now I think SH4/UBM+OM+OMEGU is the only choice for virtual U-boat skipper. Let's wait for modders to improve SH5 somewhat or their possible return to GWX4 idea...

[onelifecrisis]

You have "SHIV+OM+OMEGU" attached to your signature and you did not play OM campaign???

win

[Madox58]

Way back the SH4 Modders took a stance against anything GWX!
If you were a GWX Member?
You were hated and dismissed,
Talked about in Secrect hidden forum areas,
And options were discussed about how to stop the GWX Team with legal actions!
:nope:

Now it's almost demanded that GWX for SH4 is revived.
Seeing the total failure of SH5 has brought this about, I'm sure.

I'll say this and those involved will understand!

I worked long and hard in many areas.
Some areas would disable the Fleet Boat stuff.
(That was the legal threat!)
But it could be adapted for Fleet Boat only!

I also crossed the line by adapting some Hard Code.
Again, Fleet Boat Guys could have had a feild day with this approach!

I, and the whole Team, were spit on from day one.
And to this day!
When someone ask permissions for something we have done that they want,
They refuse to credit the GWX Team.

So why should we assist in any manor or mean?

It's not that I can't.
It's just that I won't.

[lurker_hlb3]

- you cannot close to major US/UK harbors during campaign game-play due to CTD



This statement in not factual

from the first post of the OM thread

1.Because of a design feature that prevents ships from spawning within 20km of ownship, stay clear of all major US/UK ports.
Nothing was said about CTD.

To clarify; if a ship/convoy track starts in a port and the players boat is within 20km, then that ship/convoy will not be created.

[d@rk51d3]

GWX is a more complete package with deeper content, but based on an older platform. It's held dear in alot of hearts around here, and often used as the benchmark to compare all other mods with. (rightly or wrongly)

Despite that, OM + OMEGU is a very nice package, and when coupled with a few other mods, actually weaned me off of SH3 onto SH4. Something I thought would never happen.:yep:

Both base platforms (SH3 and SH4) have their own issues, but whichever way you go, you will not be disappointed with either of these mods.:up:

[Gorshkov]

This statement in not factual

from the first post of the OM thread


Nothing was said about CTD.

To clarify; if a ship/convoy track starts in a port and the players boat is within 20km, then that ship/convoy will not be created.

Anyway Royale-Audio experienced CTD watching through periscope in that situation.

PS. What a beautiful poem about GWX Team bad fate, Privateer. :)

[jaxa]

You have "SHIV+OM+OMEGU" attached to your signature and you did not play OM campaign???

I have it installed but have no time to play campaign, only single missions for compare to SH3/GWX and SH5.
OM has much better graphics than SH3 indeed, but what about playability? GWX campaign is superb work, I'd like to know what about OM campaign? Is it true that there is no neutral shipping in OM campaign? I've read it somewhere.

[Gorshkov]

I would say SH4 has much better graphics than SH3. Yet I think regardless of all GWX3 goodies it is time to switch to SH4 platform anyway because SH3 is not perspective now and it is exhausted its potential. That is why some GWX-like approach to SH4/UBM is needed. Maybe OM+OMEGU mods would be be a nice point to start?

[lurker_hlb3]

Anyway Royale-Audio experienced CTD watching through periscope in that situation.

Don't "assume" that based on his statement. I was unable to recreate his problem. I take CTD issues and seriously will always investigate and atempt to correct.

[jaxa]

It would be fantastic to merge OM graphic and rest with GWX campaign and all other SH3 goodies. It's a pity that it won't be GWX4, it could be better than SH5.

What about neutral ships in OM?

[Nisgeis]

Way back the SH4 Modders took a stance against anything GWX!
If you were a GWX Member?
You were hated and dismissed,

So, when GWX were modding SH4 for GWX4, does that mean that they hated themslves - as they were SH4 modders at that point? That's not good for any team.

I'm surprised you would dredge up this stuff Privateer, I thought you were preaching a new live and let live approach, so I don't get what you have to gain by saying this stuff. I remember when the 'merging' happened and I have to say that there were three sides -

One side thought they were right and the other side was wrong,
The other side thought they were right and the other side was wrong,
The third side thought the other two sides were arrogant because they didn't even for a moment acknowledge or even consider the third side and for that, they thought the other two sides were a bunch of self centred people only concerned with their own false arguments and a desire to be right. The third side would have been perfectly happy if both of the other sides fell off the face of the Earth.

[karamazovnew]

One may like or not Karamazov's targeting system mod (similar to OLC GUI) included in OMEGU but it is impossible to disable it without disabling entire OMEGU mod.



Yes it is, just copy the entire [G26], [G28] and [G2B] pages from the original menu1024_768.ini file and copy over the dials.cfg file. The extra images won't be used and I haven't touched anything in the original image files. Actually, I knew people might have problems so at first I only made the Attack Periscope. Hitman did the rest, if I recall correctly. Anyway I haven't even tried that version, being stuck at the end (not even the middle) of nowhere with a laptop with a 32MB integrated graphics card for months now :damn:

As for the GWX-SH4 issue. I'm relatively new here so I've missed the circus although I keep hearing rumors and references about the Big War. I think that GWX4 for SH4 is completely unnecessary at this point. OM is pushing the limits of what can be done with the SH4 engine without breaking codes. The only thing to add would be some more eye-candy. Both SH3 and SH4 have reached the limit of what can (or should) be done to them. They're perfectly playable as they are. SH5 isn't and it reaaaaaly needs a good supermod. In the meantime I'll keep playing OM (sh3 is just too buggy for me).

Although I haven't played SH5 for months (because I can't), I keep an eye on TDK's progress with scripting. Guys... think about it... Saving and loading new variables in custom files? HOLY F_CK!!!! If only we had this for SH4 too :wah:

[Gorshkov]

Your GUI can stay. However what graphical program can remove this green scale from AP_PreciseMarks.tga file?

[jaxa]

Next question - are there Milk Cows and supply ships for U-boots in Spanish ports in OM, like in GWX?

[karamazovnew]

Your GUI can stay. However what graphical program can remove this green scale from AP_PreciseMarks.tga file?

Photoshop. The marks are in the alpha channel. Just paint with black over them.

[Gorshkov]

Sadly but I do not own Photoshop...

[jaxa]

karamazovnew, is it possible for you to release light version of your mod, with possibility to estimate range, speed and AOB like in GWX?

[Gorshkov]

In GWX you have standard SH3 targeting procedure. So why you cannot play OM without OMEGU or remove karamazov's mod as he described it above?

[karamazovnew]

karamazovnew, is it possible for you to release light version of your mod, with possibility to estimate range, speed and AOB like in GWX?

The only thing "missing" is the range done automatically by the stadimeter. However, that part of the game is bugged, and ranges are incorrect. And "the old notepad" is even more bugged. I didn't start wasting 3 months of my life just because I like having 20 dials in my periscope screen. :DL I would've been perfectly happy with it IF it worked as it did in SH3. However, it doesn't. Every time you cancel an input, everything reverts to defaults (3000m, 0 AOB and 0 Speed). There is absolutely no way to input speed manually through the notepad. So every time you send the AOB or Range to the TDC, your speed resets to zero. Test a few attacks in OM without OMEGU and see how you like it. :yeah:

Well, I won't have to leave again before mid august so I promise I'll make that movie. You'll love using the interface then. I hope. And I'll put a "no green marks" tga on the KiUB thread as soon as I get home in a few days.

[Gorshkov]

Interesting explanations, Karamazov!

- So this stadimeter and notepad are screwed-up on U-boats only or Fleet Subs stadimeter is buggy, either? Well, as I correctly remember some folks here stated SH3 targeting system is also buggy...

- Your mod fixed this bug via "circle calculations" (OLC's GUI) but as I suppose what jaxa mean is whether or not it is possible to repair stock range measurement method (stadimeter) without OLC's GUI?


PS. Thanks for "no green marks" TGA file in advance!

[Reece]

Does the crew still appear/disappear constantly in rough weather?:hmmm:

[Ducimus]

OK, so much for "The only rule I have is that the past is dead."




Way back the SH4 Modders took a stance against anything GWX!
If you were a GWX Member?
You were hated and dismissed,

Do we REALLY need to dredge up all the who', what' and whys again for 12 to 20 f*cking pages until the ban hanner falls and threads are locked all over again for a 3rd or 4th freaking time? REALLY?


Talked about in Secrect hidden forum areas,

Ok sure. There existed a private complaint forum offsite. It was only there only as a place to vent in private rather then vent things in public and stir up some schit. Just because you, or someone you know was shady enough to create false accounts and/or hack their way into that forum to see what was being said, IS NOT ANYONE ELSES FAULT BUT YOUR OWN! People were gentlemanly enough to bitch in private, so the community could go on in peace and not have the continued public drama. What are you guys now, the freaking thought police?!? NEVERMIND that all the work these modders and myself did was OPEN to the public. No HIDDEN SKUNK WORKS like some other people I could mention. Nobody your whining about hid tools, knowledge, or technical information just so they could be the king of the excrement pile. So you really have no space at all to complain about a private rant forum. NONE WHATSOERVER.


And options were discussed about how to stop the GWX Team with legal actions!
:nope:

Sure. There were speculations about the legal ramifications if you guys went and started edited core game files like EXE, DLL, files and the like. Mainly because as you cited, very few modders (read, nobody) liked you guys for reasons we really don't need to get into YET AGAIN.




I, and the whole Team, were spit on from day one.

Hmm, Gee, i wonder why? The amazing thing is, apparently you guys still don't understand. Even after all the past drama which i thought was done and over with.


And to this day!


Really? Personnally, i had let the past go, infact, until i read this post, i thought the past was the past, and i was perfectly willing to help anyone except KL regardless of past conflicts or affiliations. But apparently that doesn't hold true for all involved or i wouldn't be writing this response to a post that shouldn't have been written. I thought we had all let the past go. I guess i was wrong.

You know what i hate about modding the most? This poltiical BS, right here. (edit: A lovely surprise after being out of town for the last 4 days. Really freaking lovely! ) You talked the talk about letting the past go, and then you go dredging up the past. What the hell is that?! Don't talk the talk if your not going to walk the walk.

[Reece]

Settle down Ducimus or you'll have a heart attack!:oops: Not worth the drama, in fact you could spur it on!:yep:

[Ducimus]

Settle down Ducimus or you'll have a heart attack!:oops: Not worth the drama, in fact you could spur it on!:yep:

I said all im going to say. Infact, i cut back my previous post because various portions i was going to address in response to privateers post opened the door to further debate about crap that has been rehashed several times before. I have no interest in doing so.

Really, im more disappointed then angry. Privateers earlier attempts to let the past be bygones and trying to get everyone working together and move forward had really earned my respect. I don't know what motivated him to go back on that, and frankly i don't care. I thought people had moved on. I know i had.

[Madox58]

Everyone has a bad day from time to time.
That was mine.
:nope:
I'll not modify the post.
That would be as wrong as me posting it to begin with.
I deserve all the lumps recieved and those soon to follow.

I still work on Tools useable by SH4 modders.
Which will be released to all.

So have at me Guys.
I deserve it.

[FIREWALL]

SHCommander is the big difference.

[Reece]

So have at me Guys.
I deserve it.We all slip from time to time!:yep: I'll say nothing,:oops: especially since you are one of our great modders and I for one are very grateful for all you've done for the Silent Hunter series.:salute:
@ FIREWALL, that is a big yes!:yep:

[FIREWALL]

We all slip from time to time!:yep: I'll say nothing,:oops: especially since you are one of our great modders and I for one are very grateful for all you've done for the Silent Hunter series.:salute:
@ FIREWALL, that is a big yes!:yep:

For that Reece I vote we have the next SubSim gathering... DOWN UNDER. :woot:

[Madox58]

We all slip from time to time!:yep: I'll say nothing,:oops: especially since you are one of our great modders
No I am not.
With that post I have undone all I set out to do.
:nope:
I have no one but myself to blame.
I can live with that.
What I can not live with is Good People like you Reece,
defending me.
I don't deserve that.

[Reece]

Cripes I made it worse,:oops: gee I've stuck my foot in my mouth many times! It's called being human!:yep: I have pested you many times via PM's for advice etc, you always helped beyond what I expected, don't sell yourself short, your a good friend to me and many others here, that shows in your humble response!:yeah:
Be of good cheer and move forward!:woot:
Reece.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually I was the one who brought up th legal angle so I can say with confidence that Privateer has it all wrong implying that other modders or game players were threatening to sue or prosecute GWX.

I specifically postulated that it would be Ubi who could hire the legal beagles to prosecute anyone who hacked executable code, dll or exe files, for release in a mod (personal use wouldn't be actionable as it wouldn't affect anyone else) or who released a mod that shut down a significant portion of Ubi's property, such as the U-Boat or Fleet Boat half.

It originally came up because Ducimus had shut down the U-Boat half as part of a Trigger Maru update. He subsequently released a patch to turn the U-Boat part of the game back on again.

Then GWX began trumpeting that GWX 4 would have to permanently shut down the Fleet Boat side of SH4. Now that was an even more egregious situation, because GWX was installed with an installer, not with JSGME. Ducimus could have claimed easy uninstallation of TMO with JSGME, but GWX could claim no such thing. Even so, Ducimus took steps to avoid possible problems. I had several private conversations with Privateer (imagine that!) concerning the legal situation and he wasn't worried about it. None of the conversations, nor the postings on the RFB website could be characterized as "threats." In using that word Privateer has crossed the line of untruth.

I was warning both the Fleet Boat guys and the GWX guys that Ubi owns this game and they will determine what they will accept as a mod and what they will prosecute as hacking. Up to now, and Subsim has officially endorsed this position, modding consists of modding the data files in the /data subdirectory. Mods should leave the game substantially playable and should be easily removed in case the newbie user does not like the changes they produce in Ubi's product. Modifying exe or dll files constitutes piracy, not modding.

In the final analysis, all the legal stuff goes right out the window anyway. If Ubi decides that we modders have contempt for their product, even if what we are doing is perfectly legal (shutting down half their game might remotely possibly be legal) they would just end modding forever from then on. Then where would we be?

Therefore the acid test of modding is whether Ubi likes it. Keeping them happy is all that matters. Just as soon as they're thinking we're out to ruin part of the game for one-upsmanship on another group of modders, or causing a lot of customer support calls from new players who heard that XXX was the greatest mod in the universe, installed it and then can't play their beloved U-Boats is the key to keeping modding possible, modding is over. That's not a threat, it's reality.

If I am anti-GWX for that statement then I am equally anti-TMO, maybe more so since I brought it up against TMO first. I have what I consider a good and respectful relationship with Privateer and some of the former members of the GWX team, and those people will be essential, along with many on the "other side" in the future (if any) for SH5. Time to bury the hatchet and move forward. Please, folks, cut Privateer a break for his post and accept his apology as genuine. Modders, myself included, tend to be a bit temperamental. Privateer, to the best of my knowledge, holds the moral high ground here as the only person who has ever brigged himself for committing forum flatulence. That commands my permanent respect and admiration.

[karamazovnew]

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but why would Ubi be hurt by a mod unless the mod would be a stand-alone not requiring the original game? Let's say they make a ****ty game... nobody's buying it and all people who have bought it hate it. Then comes an uber mod, say GWX5, breaking all the hacking rules and people start buying Ubi's game to be able to play.

How can you even imagine that Ubi would sue the modders or Neal? "Sorry, but we don't care that you make OUR game better and we're getting sales for free because of YOUR work, we want this nonsense to stop!". No way... As long as a mod doesn't hack into the DRM and doesn't bypass the need for the original game, I don't see a problem. Imagine if Valve sued the makers of Counterstrike :haha:

On the subject: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/54432/StarCraft-II-Modders-Sued-By-Blizzard
http://news.cnet.com/Game-maker-sues-over-nude-volleyball/2100-1043_3-5571234.html?tag=nl
http://www.ripten.com/2009/05/11/chrono-trigger-fan-mod-receives-cease-and-desist-letter-from-square-enix/

As you can see, these are cases of standalone mods, nude patches (weird) and cracks.
As for the Legal stuff we accept by clicking a button, there's a LOT of mumbo-jumbo that might sound scary there. But I highly doubt that a respectable company would risk making fools of themselves by attacking a group of people who've actually helped them selling their games for almost 10 years. At the most, they'd ask for a mod to be removed from the site.

I believe that a serious team (nodding at LukeFF now) could contact Dan and put forward a request for free-reign over the game's code. As long as they don't touch the DRM, I doubt they'd refuse them.

[Rockin Robbins]

That's been tried. The Wolves tried it with SH3 and didn't receive anything good, in spite of all they did for the game. These game companies tend to be very temperamental about their property. Some game companies which used to permit modding no longer do.

Now I was talking about the special case of SH4 which has schizophrenia between its U-Boat and Fleet Boat sides with shared parameters between the two sides. Both TMO and GWX barked up opposite sides of the same tree by threatening to shut off half the game, a move unlikely to gain the endorsement of Ubi, especially if new players installed these mods, then called customer support asking why the U-Boats or Fleet Boats vanished. That kind of stuff makes customer support people get cranky.

I think we get to have a very distorted view of our value toward a game. Of all the people who bought SH4, what percentage do you think even know there are mods out there? I'd say probably one in three at best. I'd say chances are we have some delusions of grandeur and overimportance. After all, the console game segment of the industry is killing us and it doesn't have modding. I don't believe the game companies do more than tolerate modders.

This may not be a case of game companies acting in their own best interest, but has Ubi consulted with modders before coming out with a new product? Last time they actually did, one of the modders burned them, leaking SH4 patch 1.3 before the release date, demonstrating once and for all our immense value to their company. After that we're lucky we're tolerated. Do they think we make their game better? I doubt it. They're wrong, but they have a right to be wrong. We don't necessarily have a right to be right.

[onelifecrisis]

Sadly but I do not own Photoshop...

Then use GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/).

[Gorshkov]

Then use GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/).

Karamazov already did it. Besides I removed his mod from my OM+OMEGU installation and returned to stock U-boat's targeting technique.

[h.sie]

is there a (judical) difference between editing a .tga file and editing an .exe file? i ask because editing .tga files and .cfg files is standard here for modders, but editing .exe files seems to be a taboo. why? by the way: the 4GB-Patch for Sh3 does change one bit in the sh3.exe. but nobody from UBI cares.

P.S. I installed SH4+UBM+OPmonsun for the third time now and tried hard to like it, but without success. Graphics are good. Crew management is good. But there is missing something hard to describe, I call it "Das Boot"-feeling. Sh3 in my opinion has that feeling, Sh4 does not.

With this I don't want to discredit the hard and great work of Lurker_hlb. It is just my opinion, which is linked to SH4 and not to Lurkers work.

h.sie

[makman94]

....is there a (judical) difference between editing a .tga file and editing an .exe file? i ask because editing .tga files and .cfg files is standard here for modders, but editing .exe files seems to be a taboo. why? .....

hi H.sie,

i think i have figured out(just.... my conclusions after thinking a little bit of it) the why .
my thought is that ubi and devs are afraid of modders .they know that, by letting modders hack the exe files ,modders are capable to make a evolutionary game and then it will be very difficult (or...impossible ) for ubi-devs to make something better (they will have to work very hard and spend lot of money) so 'game' (and money) will be over for them.
just my thought ....no proves

[Gorshkov]

P.S. I installed SH4+UBM+OPmonsun for the third time now and tried hard to like it, but without success. Graphics are good. Crew management is good. But there is missing something hard to describe, I call it "Das Boot"-feeling. Sh3 in my opinion has that feeling, Sh4 does not.

You are talking nonsense! First, SH3 is now unplayable for wide-screen monitors and SH4 still looks impressive. Second, go blame GWX Team for abandoning GWX4 instead of issue some accusations against OM campaign. Third, before doing so take into account stock SH4 was created as PTO game in mind and SH3 is ATO game instead - that is why your feeling can be flawed.

[h.sie]

In the first post jaxa asked us to compare SH3/GWX to SH4/OpsMonsun, which I did. I answered with my personal opinion and not with nonsense. first, please reread my post. I did not say anything about the OM CAMPAIGN. second, please read the forum rules about correct speech. thank you. you might have a different opinion, no problem, but that does not give you the authority to become impolite.

[karamazovnew]

P.S. I installed SH4+UBM+OPmonsun for the third time now and tried hard to like it, but without success. Graphics are good. Crew management is good. But there is missing something hard to describe, I call it "Das Boot"-feeling. Sh3 in my opinion has that feeling, Sh4 does not.

With this I don't want to discredit the hard and great work of Lurker_hlb. It is just my opinion, which is linked to SH4 and not to Lurkers work.

h.sie

I agree with you, SH3 had "something" extra but maybe just because we've played it first. Then came GWX which managed to improve that "something". SH4 has a "something" but for fleet boats. They just fit well, regardless if you play TMO or RFB.

On the other hand OM loads up fast, doesn't bug, looks great and is just a blast to play against convoys. For some, this is reason enough to make the switch. For me it was.

[Ducimus]

Insert snide remark (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1448920&postcount=121) here.

People don't give this game enough credit.

[h.sie]

@karamozenew:

good idea. maybe i am biased. maybe I've to give it a fourth and fifth chance......

greetings,
h.sie

[Sailor Steve]

Insert snide remark (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1448920&postcount=121) here.

People don't give this game enough credit.
"It looks pretty, but I don't like the Pacific!"
:rotfl2:

[Wilcke]

I switched to SH4 1.5 plus OM and OMEGU for my ATO fix. OM has it all and graphically SH4 scales very well to the Wide Screen LCD I use.

Lurker provides exceptional support and innovation. That other sim is but a foggy memory now.

[Sailor Steve]

IThat other sim is but a foggy memory now.
I wish I could say the same, but there are still things over there that SH4 doesn't have...yet. But people are working on it, so someday...

[Gorshkov]

first, please reread my post. I did not say anything about the OM CAMPAIGN. second, please read the forum rules about correct speech. thank you. you might have a different opinion, no problem, but that does not give you the authority to become impolite.

As I can see you don't know what you are talking about! OM is first and foremost a German CAMPAIGN for SH4 with OMEGU being not mandatory, say "auxiliary stuff" and that should be a crucial point of every comparison between OM and GWX3, as I understand. So familiar yourself with OM a bit more (read lurker's info in OM thread) instead of telling me I am impolite. Then you will understand several flaws found in OM but not present in GWX3 which may ruin your feeling are heritage of stock SH4 not being fixable at the moment (CO2 increasings during snorkeling, unrealistic Type XXI performance etc.).

[h.sie]

I of course know that OM is about the german side. Not interested in pacific theatre. But I only tested the single missions instead of the campaign. That's enough for checking if I like the sim or not. It's not the campaign I am talking about. It's the athmosphere - the sim-feeling. And this, my friend, is purely subjective. If I say, I don't like SH4, this means: I don't like SH4 (subjective!). This does not mean, that SH4 is a bad game (objective). Do you know the difference between subjective and objective view? And now please excuse me, this discussion makes me tired and has ended for me. Best wishes.

[Gorshkov]

Great! Subjective feelings after playing single missions only in the OM campaign...Did you play single missions only in GWX3, too? :doh:

[Pablo]

:timeout:

I think this thread has reached the point where personal invective has replaced substantive comparisons of OM and GWX.

In the future, please remember that not everyone's English is as good as yours and try to give them the benefit of the doubt before taking insult at something someone has said.

Pablo