[REL] 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit

[Nisgeis]

LATEST VERSION: v1.02 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1901

Here's a combined mod that adds in a 3D TDC, which is sort of interactive (within the limits of the game) and also a radar range unit, which can be used to measure the range of any target in the same way that the real unit that was on board the US Subs worked.

3D TDC:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/TDCOverview.jpg

Range Unit with 'A' Scope:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/RadarRangeUnitandIndicator.jpg

Here's how to use it. First, the radar range unit. The part that was missed off teh stock interior is the part that actually gives the measurement. The 'A' Scope is used to measure the timing of the signals and the range unit converts that to a range. The missing mode of the 'A' Scope was an 'expanded sweep' or 'precision sweep' mode, where the radar trace was expanded so that there was a 'window' 3,000 yards wide centred about the current range indicated on the range unit. So, if the range unit said '12,000' then the expanded sweep would show from 10,500 to 13,500. On this 'window' there was a step, which in my version is replaced by a little white triangle. The method of reading range is to get a roung idea of where the target is from the normal modes - 3k, 20k, or 40k and then switch to expanded mode and then fine tune the scope so that the target pip is directly over the 'step' (white triangle).

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/RangeUnitCloseUp.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/AScopeCloseUp.jpg

The white set of dials on the range unit is the range in yards (0 - 40,000 yards), with a further set of three dials that indicates the same range in miles (to make plotting easier and reduce errors - not historically correct, but is designed to reduce workload for the single player).

The green set of dials are for the range that the TDC currently has. There is also a correspnding green step on the radar scope. This allows you to see easily ow the measured range compares to the generated range - not historically correct for a Mark 3 TDC, but it's again there to reduce workload on the player, as he is working alone during what can be a stressful and heavy work load when tracking and plotting alone.

The range that is measured is put into the buffer used by the stadimeter, so to correctly measure the range, you will need to switch to the periscope or TDC and from the right hand slide out, choose the stadimeter before measuring the range. If you don't do that then you won't be able to send the range to the TDC and will have to measure it again. So, with the stadmiter selected, the range value you measure will be loaded into the stadimeter buffer, then all you need to do is switch back to the periscope or TDC view and 'send' the range to the TDC. This sounds a bit fiddly and in practice it isn't as long as you remember to set the TDC input to the stadimeter, measure the range and then take a bearing and send the range with the bearing.

The radar train bearing indicator now also has a digital display, again ahistorical, but is designed to reduce workload and errors on a single player. In reality you can get a better idea of the bearing from the original indicator, but in game it's not so easy as the camera is fixed and the resolution is much lower and it's just not as easy to get a good look at the bearing, especially if you are switching back and forth.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/TrainBearingIndicator.jpg

There is now also a green set of dials that indicates the generated bearing from the TDC - allowing you to quickly rotate to the right point and find the target in a hurry.

You can't send the radar bearing to the TDC, what you have to do is to move the periscope to the measured bearing. The radar is slightly buggy in that the radar cone will pick up targets only to one side of where the radar is pointing, instead of both sides, so you may find that the target disappears at the exact bearing that the target is at. Annoying, but that's a problem with the game's sensors. A rememdy will be coming later.

Now onto the 3D TDC. The actual TDC was a very complicated device and it's sad to see that it's functions have been somewhat mutilated and the device made harder to use by incorrect modelling - e.g. changing the bearing does not change the range or Angle on the Bow, making last minute bearing adjustments very difficult and unnecessarily increasing the workload on the player.

The dials will be explained in two halves, top and bottom. Some of the dials are grouped together and designed to be read in pairs, with one dial being a low speed and one dial being a high speed one. The first half (apologies for the resolution, but it's necessary to show it clearly and explain the readings):

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/UpperhalfofTDC.jpg

Dial 1. Target Speed

Does what it says on the tin. Will display the target's speed that is currently set in the TDC. Read where the blue line is indicating. Thie dial shows shows a target speed of 20 knots.

Dial Pair of Pairs 2. Own Ship and Target Ship

These are a complicated set of dials to read, but have much information.

Upper dial, Target Ship, represents the target that the TDC is tracking.

Target dial is read from the bottom for most readings, where the blue line is. Data shown is:

Outer ring, true bearing from the target to the submarine. approx 212 degrees
Inner ring, Angle on the Bow (currntly incorrect graphics)
Alignment of inner ring's zero and outer ring - Target's course (approx 248 degrees).
Arrow indicator - Torpedo track angle.

The white triangle pointer is draggable abd can be used to change the AoBB setting, as long as the AOB dial has been selected from the TDC input dial on the periscope screen first, then the AoB can be input and sent to the TDC. Drag the pointer around in a circle.

Lower Dial, Own Ship, represents the position of the submarine.

Outer ring, true bearing to target - approx 30 degrees.
Inner ring, relative bearing to target - approx 53 degrees.
Arrow indicator - torpedo gyro angle
Red pointer - radar bearing (when using radar it can be switched off after a bearing is taken, so that it does not auto sweep).
Blue pointer - Sonar indicator (useful when ordering sonar man to track a traget as you can compare the blue pointer to the relative bearing).

Not draggable.

Dial 3 Pair. Target True Course high and low speed.

The outer dial is the 'low speed' indicator and rotates once evert 360 degrees and the inner 'high speed' dial rotates 36 times per 360 degrees, thus giving one rotation per ten degrees. Read the dial as the outer number being the first two digits of the course, with the inner dial providing the third digit, so if the outer dial shows between 13 and 14 and the inner dial 7, the target's course is 137 (True). The value indicated in the screenshot is 248 degrees.

Two sets of pointers - high and low speed target course change indicators.

Clickable: Make coarse adjustments to the course by dragging the AoB indicator (whilst looking at the target course indicators). Then make fine adjustments with by dragging up and down, then make very fine adjustment by dragging left to right over the dial. As with the AoB setter, make sure you select the AoB input from the periscope or TDC screen before you enter the new course, or you will have to set it again!

This ability to input a course is very useful, if you are updating a bearing, as the poor implimentation in the game does not update the AoB when you put in a new bearing, so it is necessary to input a new course after each bearing change you make. Using this dial, it's very easy to do, as long as you remember to do it!

Dial set 4. Range to Target.

Indicates range to target in yards. Will only display up to 8,000 yards in the TDC mark 3 - a mark 4 version will be coming along soon, but 8,000 yards should allow you to track most things without trouble. The mark 4 went up to 40,000 yards. Read the range as displayed, the range shown is 2606 - the third dial is half way between 0 and 1, so zero is taken).

Dial 5. Time.

This should show the time since the problem was started, but this isn't possible in the game. I did have it linked to the stopwatch originally, but unfortunately the stop watch only goes up to 30 minutes and the resets, so instead I have shown it linked to real time, so that you can at least make radar measurements and record them as the time past the hour and have something to compare it to. Clicking on teh Time dial will bring up the stopwatch, which will be used later for the Dead Reckoning Tracer (to come).

The lower half:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/LowerHalfofTDC.jpg

Dial Pair 6. Relative Target Bearing.

NOTE: On the real TDC there would be another set of smaller dials that would indicate the relative sound bearing, but as sound in SH4 travels at the speed of light, there is no need for this and also the SBC (Sound Bearing Converter) is also not modelled in the game for the same reason.

The left hand dial is the high speed dial showing the first two digits of the relative bearing (as generated by the TDC) and the right hand high speed dial is the last digit. The relative bearing shown is 54 degrees and 10 seconds.

The blue arrow represents the sonar bearing and can be used to see if the bearing rate is correct when you order your sonar man to track the target - if the blue pointers follow the relative bearing, then your solution is correct (or at least not definately wrong).

The red arrow is the radar bearing, which can be used when you obtain a radar bearing and switch the set off, which will freeze the radar bearing, otherwise it will just continue to whizz round on it's own. I'm going to refine the radar pointer, as there are problems with the radar sensor's bearing measurements, as mentioned earlier.

Dial Pair 7. Own Course.

This shows your own sub's course, with the now familiar low speed and high speed arrangement. The left low speed dial is the first two digits and the right hand high speed dial is the last digit. The value shown as the current sub's course is 337 degrees and 30 seconds (337.5 degrees). It's very accurate!

Clickable: You can order a course change by clicking on the low speed dial.

Dial 8. Own Speed.

This is your own speed in knots as measured by your pit log.

Clickbale: You can click on it to order your sub to any speed (within your speed range). This is useful if you want to parallel a traget and match speed.

Blank 9. Reserved of Distance to Track indicator.

Some TDCs (mid mark 3s) had a range to track indicator that showed you how far from your target's track (line drawn though the target's course) you were. This can be quite usefull to see how far you are from the intercept point you are and whether you will cross over the target's track before the target gets there (e.g. you will have crossed and will be shooting from the sterns - or possibly you will be too close to fire).

It's not in at the moment and historically it would have gone where the target course indicator is. The place where it is now would have been the Target Length input and output matcher for the SBC, but as sound travels at the speed of light, there is no need for an SBC, which converts the measured sonar bearing and takes into account the delay of the sound wavs and the range and the course of the taregt and generates the actual bearing of the target from the sonar bearing - fancy stuff that we don't need.

So, to use it effectively:



Select stadinmeter input on periscope screeen,
Change to radar and measure range with radar,
Point periscope at the target and send the range and bearing.
Plot the target, wait however many minutes you want,
Switch to the radar and take a new range
Switch back to the periscope and line up the scope (or not if you have locked it) and send the range and bearing.
Now you can either plot the two points or ask for a speed and course estimate.
Switch to the speed input, put in your speed (you can also do that from the 3D TDC, but it's a bit pointless), switch to the AoB input
Go to the 3D TDC, enter the course you have been given (or calculated)
Switch back to the periscope screen and send the AoB (course).
Start the PK.
Observe the situation evolve on the 3D TDC (where all the dials whizz round).
Peridically check the radar range and periscope bearing against the generated solution, to make sure it 'tracks' with your solution. Asjust accordingly.
If you do make any changes t the range or bearing, then remember to select the AoB input, switch back to the TDC and reset the course and send it again!

Tips & Tricks

Hitman came up with the idea of using the two readings to get a calculated solution easily, to reduce the tracking workload. It's much more accurate with radar ranges and optical bearings than using the stadimeter.

Also, you can use the radar now to calibrate the stadimeter. As the range you measure at the radar is sent through the stadimeter, you can measure the radar range, then take an immediate stadimeter measurement and then adjust the target height dial, so that the the indicator is in the same place as it was when you measured the radar range and there you have just set the target height. You can use that method to measure from any part of the ship you want too, which really helps when you are making submerged approaches.

You can order your sonarman to track the target and then observe the bearing on the TDC blue indicators and then compare them to the generate solution.

Thanks to skwas, without whom, I'd never have even attempted this mod and thanks everyone who helped test this mod or providied resources: Wilcke, epower, Bubblehead1980, LukeFF, mav87th, virtualplender, Gino, vickers03, 399knov and Rockin' Robbins.

And a massively huge thanks goes to Hitman, who probably wrote more text than I did in the discussions on the project.

This project has taken a very long time to create and as such, I can't properly explain it all in just one post. It's got a lot of functionality and I've only scratched the surface of what you can do with it, so now it's time to dive in and get used to it. There are loads of things left to discuss, like how to measure the bearing of a target using radar only, how to distinguish between targets close together and track the right one, how to adjust your solution according to measurements you take (e.g. what the errors in range or bearing mean). Yeah, just loads of stuff.

Planned is a Dead Reckoning table that you will be able to use to show the tactical situation and also to take two radar/optical readings and then from that graphical work out the course and speed of the target (thanks to tater for that idea).

At the moment, it's only in the Balao and Gato class for stock, but I have been offered help in porting it to the other interiors and probably what will happen is it will be integretaed with the newer shinier interiors anyway.

So here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1901

There are faults with it and it can be (and will be) improved, but if I waited until it was perfect, it would never have been released.

[Nisgeis]

Reserved.

[Nisgeis]

Reserved Too.

[Gerald]

(Edited for content...No need to quote the first post.)

Is this practicable to SH3?

[irish1958]

WOW!:woot:
:salute:
Thanks, I'll give it a go today!:yeah:

[cdrsubron7]

Am going to give this a try tonight after I get home from work. Fantastic job, Nisgeis. :D :yeah: :up:

[Nisgeis]

Is this practicable to SH3?

Nope, only SH4. Any chance you could edit your post so you don't quote the whole massive post?

[Bubblehead1980]

wow is all i can say, can't wait for the version that works with TMO, great work guys:salute: SH 4 will live for a long time because of you guys and others.

[Mav87th]

Most cool mod for running a Gato around the Pacific. Very cool work Nisgeis - but you know that i mean that already mate!!

:salute::ping::arrgh!:

Above Me and Nisgeis at his improved PPI scope...

[Gino]

Very nicely done!:up:

Groetjes,

[Hitman]

The importance of this mod for Sh4 can't be overestimated :yeah:Before we had to resort to some unsatisfactory methods of getting accurate radar ranges, either by making wild ass guesses of what the A-Scope told us, or by using limited information in the map -which gave away too much when visual contacts where displayed. Now we have a game inside the game, a much better simulation of what the TDC and the radar really did, and how the ship worked together as combat unit.

We will always be indebt with you Nisgeis :salute:

[Donner]

This mod is truly a 'game changer.'

Great work, Nisgeis! :up:

[joegrundman]

astonishing work - very well done to you Nisgeis and all your collaborators. bravo

[Nisgeis]

Thanks for the comments. Has anyone had any successes with it?

[Bubblehead1980]

not yet, waiting for TMO version, looking forward to it for sure.:salute:

[Wilcke]

Nisgeis, burned huge quantities of midnight oil on this one! Beautiful piece of work and easily qualifies for Mod of the Year. It brings about a level of realism to the Fleetboat that is unprecedented.

It has a steep learning curve but once you master this TDC you will have opened up a whole new dimension of game play in SH4.

Thank you, so very much!

Regards,

[Hitman]

easily qualifies for Mod of the Year

Very true, and I'll remember that for this year's subsim "Best of" awards :yeah:

[makman94]

congratulations Nisgeis :up:

definetely one of the best mods !!

i never played (seriously) fleet boats but now i will certainly do so ,thanks to your mod !

[irish1958]

Thanks for the comments. Has anyone had any successes with it?

Nisgels
Thanks for this great mod.
There is a steep learning curve with the mod, but so far it has functioned perfectly for me.

This mod is great and should have been in the game from the start.

[Hitman]

I just noticed a small detail that could be revised in the future (It's a detail by I tend to use a lot those markings and it makes things a bit more difficult): In the inner ship silhouette dials, the own ship one goes from 0-360 correctly, but the target one also does the same. In the real TDC it went 0-180/0-180, because it represents AOB at the marked point (Line of sight to own ship).

:up:

[Nisgeis]

Yep, I know. The inner dials should also be a slight orangey brown, but they aren't ATM as some dials share the same texture, hence the AOB not being right. Also, the target course dial numbers are upside down. Will be fixed soon (TM).

[skwasjer]

Probably the most complex and innovative mod ever! It would be alot easier to make a TDC with programming code, yet we can't (and they could), but then Nisgeis comes along, throws a crap load of parent/child relationships and controller abuse in the mix and voila! :yeah:

Well done Nisgeis! I know this wasn't an easy project, so kudos for persisting!

[Hitman]

The inner dials should also be a slight orangey brown

Are you sure they looked like that in wartime? I suspect that this is the current degradated status of the luminiscent paint used for printing them on the dials, as they look today in museum ships. But not how they looked like in wartime :hmmm:

[Nisgeis]

Probably the most complex and innovative mod ever! It would be alot easier to make a TDC with programming code, yet we can't (and they could), but then Nisgeis comes along, throws a crap load of parent/child relationships and controller abuse in the mix and voila! :yeah:

Well done Nisgeis! I know this wasn't an easy project, so kudos for persisting!

Thanks! Most of it was a few instances of very lateral thinking, followed by tediously setting it all up. The hundreds dial on the range counter has 400 dial controllers attached to it, to get it to tick over every 100 yards - each set up by hand :zzz:. I thought I'd broken S3D at one point, as I got to 250 nested IDs and it wouldn't display any more - luckily it was still working, it had just reset the indent and had started again at the left hand side. I even got the warning about having too many nodes :sunny:. None of it would have been possible without the amazing S3D!

Are you sure they looked like that in wartime? I suspect that this is the current degradated status of the luminiscent paint used for printing them on the dials, as they look today in museum ships. But not how they looked like in wartime :hmmm:

On the pics I have seen the inner dials are differently coloured to the outer - I'd assume if they were yellowing extremely badly, that they'd all be the same colour. Luminous paint doesn't yellow that much (at least not in aircraft dials), so I assume they must have been that colour (allowing for slight yellowing) when they were new.

[Bubblehead1980]

im jonesing to try this out for TMO lol :har:

[Ducimus]

Easily, this is the Mod of the year. :up::up:

[Bubblehead1980]

absolutely agree duci

[pickinthebanjo]

I'm always impressed with the mods that come out after I get back into SH3. I think I will have to dig out SH4 again

[John Channing]

im jonesing to try this out for TMO lol :har:


ahem


THIS





I have never done that before because, up until now, there was never a need to!

[skwasjer]

I thought I'd broken S3D at one point, as I got to 250 nested IDs and it wouldn't display any more - luckily it was still working, it had just reset the indent and had started again at the left hand side.
I don't think Microsoft ever thought their treeview control would be used to show a tree structure with this depth of child nodes... Nor did I :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Where in the hell was this buried? Very cool!

[Captain America]

Excellent work! :salute: Really takes the simulation aspect to a whole new level.

[Armistead]

You finally did it. This will be the most useful mod the game has ever seen for those that play with contacts off. We now have the fair tools.

This made my day, I wish I would've checked earlier.

No doubt, mod of the year.

[Bubblehead1980]

any eta on the TMO version of this mod????:salute:

[Nisgeis]

any eta on the TMO version of this mod????:salute:

Soon (TM).

Anyone had any successful attacks using this mod, or any radar plots they'd like to share? 100 downloads and it's all very quiet, so either it's one bloke trying to download it a hundred times or lots of people have downloaded it and... not used it / had no issues with / have no comments? I don't like it sarge, it's too quiet.

[Bubblehead1980]

Soon (TM).

Anyone had any successful attacks using this mod, or any radar plots they'd like to share? 100 downloads and it's all very quiet, so either it's one bloke trying to download it a hundred times or lots of people have downloaded it and... not used it / had no issues with / have no comments? I don't like it sarge, it's too quiet.


awseome:salute:

I bet it's quiet because its great.Like when mother cooks a great meal and everyone is quiet for few minutes, you know the food is great.I'm sure we will have some stories etc soon. As soon as the TM version is ready you run a few attacks with it and report back, great work.I take it you have used it during testing? used since?

[Quagmire]

Soon (TM).

Anyone had any successful attacks using this mod, or any radar plots they'd like to share? 100 downloads and it's all very quiet, so either it's one bloke trying to download it a hundred times or lots of people have downloaded it and... not used it / had no issues with / have no comments? I don't like it sarge, it's too quiet.

Please don't think that this isn't appreciated. It is immensely! Personally I'm waiting for the TMO/Interior 3D Overhaul version to be ready. When it is you can be sure that I will shower everyone involved with praise! Only after I can tear myself away from using it!

Thanks again!
.

[Lionfish298]

I, too, am waiting with bated breath for the TMO version.

[sharkbit]

Will there be a RFB version, or will the stock version work with RFB?

:)

[Nisgeis]

Will there be a RFB version, or will the stock version work with RFB?

:)

There will be an RFB one soon (TM). The version for stock will work with both TMO and RFB for the Gato and Balao, but you'll lose all the extra interior shininess that Ducimus and Vickers put in.

EDIT: And the fancy cameras will go too.

[Ducimus]

If the 3d TDC and radar range unit can be extracted from their existing dat, as to make them "portable" in their own dat files, then the mod could be made TMO compatible by simply importing the new data, and remove any existing duplicate data into TMO's interiors.

If that can't be done, then there's no way it could be made TMO compatible, without tossing out a ton of work and starting over from scratch. That work ranges from extra crewman positions, to special effects when damaged, to klaxon alarms, to clickable depth gauge, animated steering wheel, animated fan, etc.

So some raw dats to import would be great. :D

[Nisgeis]

So some raw dats to import would be great. :D

Yeah, after I realised what an enormously large amount of work it was going to be, I started organising things as I went along, so it would be easily portable, but there's still a few things from the start that are a bit all over the place. To put things into perspective, the stock conning tower has the following indexes for the End Of File:

Dat - EOF Index 836, Sim - End Index 108.

My version:

Dat - EOF Index 5403, Sim - End Index 630.

So, in other words I've added in 5,089 nodes to get it all to work, or five times as many nodes as were there to begin with. Fun, fun, fun, waking up in a sweat time :doh:.

I can seperate it all out, but I will need a few hours of uninterupted time, so I don't lose my place. I changed a few nodes too, but not that many - only the range settings and dimensions for the radar and two (I think) models need to be adjusted to make room for the range unit. Most of the objects are positioned relative to a parent, so if I need to move the TDC or range unit it will all move together (thankfully).

EDIT: I'd also need some testers with TMO as well.

[Armistead]

Soon (TM).

Anyone had any successful attacks using this mod, or any radar plots they'd like to share? 100 downloads and it's all very quiet, so either it's one bloke trying to download it a hundred times or lots of people have downloaded it and... not used it / had no issues with / have no comments? I don't like it sarge, it's too quiet.


I am playing with it. It took a few hours, but after reading directions several times, it finally ticked. As stated, I ran it with TMO and lost all my
eye candy...hope you can get it to work with TMO, RSRD, ect..if possible.
The only issue and I have was a CTD. Coming into base I ID'ed a allied ship and whammo...not sure what caused it, but haven't had a crash in many months. It crashed before the ship ID'ed, but think it was a Kent Class. However, can't say for sure what caused it. Before that I had three perfect patrols with no problems.

Took sometime and somethings throw you off, but you gave enough info in directions that I finally got it. The learning curve is worth it. With contacts off I was able to get in as good as position with them on, just took more time, but it was so worth it.

I'll keep testing and would be glad to test a TMO version.

[Bubblehead1980]

nice.i too will test this with TMO, just let me know when:salute:

[Nisgeis]

Took sometime and somethings throw you off, but you gave enough info in directions that I finally got it.

Could you PM me or post whatever you had trouble with, so I can adjust the instructions? I was never really happy with the instructions I wrote - took me a while to write them and I knew I'd never get enough detail into them.

nice.i too will test this with TMO, just let me know when:salute:

Thanks.

[Lionfish298]

Any updates on progress toward a TMO compatible version?

[Hitman]

Soon (TM).

I quote Nisgeis because he TMed the brand :haha:

[Lionfish298]

I quote Nisgeis because he TMed the brand :haha:

Lol. Touche.

[John Channing]

I am guessing (after a quick test) that this won't run on earlier versions of TMO? I just tried the radar part running TMO 1.5 and go some weird results ( as well as no "digital" readouts at all). The TDC was running constantly even though I didn't have a target locked up.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

The interiors pretty much overwrite everything, so there shouldn't be much interference. You shouldn't get parts of one thing and no parts of another, so that's strange. Have you got any screenshots of what the radar looked like?

As for the TDC running, are you using automatic targetting? If so, you can still turn the PK on, even with no target locked, which will make the TDC run - perhaps that's what is happening. It will run off the last target data it had, from whatever target the scope was last swept over.

[John Channing]

Ok.. I re-installed the mod over 1.5 and I think I am starting to get it. Pretty much everything looks as it should.

So I am working through this step by step.

I get the PPI to focus on the contact until I get a spike on the A scope. I then switch to expanded mode on the A scope and use the dial to move the scope readout back and forth until the spike is in view (I can also drag the A scope screen left and right using my mouse, but that's cheating). I place the triangle marker over the right hand side of the spike and get a pretty accurate range and perfect bearing.

However, in you instructions you say you can drag the triangle up and down for fine adjustments and I am not getting that part.

Oh.. and I am in manual targeting mode but when I switch to the 3-d tdc all of the dials are spinning like crazy, without me having sent anything there. Perhaps this will change once I send the data to the tdc, but one step at a time. Right now I am learning to get range and bearing data from the radar so that I can play with Map Contacts off and it is working.

Combined with TMO and RSRD, this is the most important mod the game has seen yet. I am absolutely loving it.

Thanks

JCC

[Nisgeis]

I then switch to expanded mode on the A scope and use the dial to move the scope readout back and forth until the spike is in view (I can also drag the A scope screen left and right using my mouse, but that's cheating). I place the triangle marker over the right hand side of the spike and get a pretty accurate range and perfect bearing.

However, in you instructions you say you can drag the triangle up and down for fine adjustments and I am not getting that part.

It's not cheating at all. In real life, the dial would have been used, but also in real life the dial would have given much more precision. You'd have been able to spin it round as fast as you liked to whiz up and down the range. The in game dial, due to game engine limitations, can only be assigned one rotation of the dial to 0 - 40,000 yards, whereas in real life it would be say 3,000 yards per turn or something (so you'd have much more control). So the in game dial is very sensitive, but that's offset by there being no way to quickly wind it forward and back. The dragging the 'A' Scope is there to allow the ease of use of just fine tuning with the dial, which you would do instintively with a hand on the dial and an eye on the scope.

You don't drag the triangle up and down, you drag anywhere on the scope up and down. Just like you can drag anywhere on the scope left/right. It's not cheating, it's precision!

I think the correct position for the triangle indicator is in the centre of the pip. But, that's where operator skill comes in to the accuracy of the ranges :DL. This is more or less the exact same way the real ranges were read.

The radar bearing can be read accurately, but you need to read it off one 'side' of the radar beam. I'll do a 'pipology' workshop later on and will go through how to get a target's bearing, how to pick out the juicy target and how to seperate multiple taregts and track one accurately, after I've a) tiled my Kitchen and b) done a version TMO and RFB.

As for the dials whizzing about, then some will, even with no solution running, as they all relate to your own speed and course etcetera and then some are derived from that, like target course, which is based on target AoB and your own course, so probably a few dials will spin whilst you aren't tracking anything, if you are manouevering. There are also red and blue indicators also, that represent the radar (red for radar) and sonar (blue for water) and... well, you'll get all in no time.

EDIT: Hurrah! Feedback :-).

[John Channing]

Did you ever have one of those moments when it felt like a light bulb actually went on ? I gotta tell you... it's most gratifying!

This is working perfectly!

I am currently on a patrol with map contacts on so I can check the range and bearing readings the radar is giving against what the game is putting on the map and I am able to position the cursor on the A scope to give me perfect range and bearing readings.

With a little fiddling around I also figured out what you mean about coarse adjustments moving left to right an fine ones up and down.

Man! What a work of art this is!

I can finally play this game the way I wanted to from day one. This is as close to realism as I can imagine.The only thing that could make this better would be if, when you sent the range and bearing to the TDC if it also put a mark on the Nav or Attack Map that corresponds to them. The only reason I think of this is that it is going to be pretty labour intensive moving from the map to the radar plotting the attack.

But, on the other hand, I can see where plotting the targets course far out an then positioning your boat for an intercept could become a really fun part of the process.

Suffice it to say I am loving this... and I haven't even looked at the TDC yet. It's feels like Christmas and I am saving that for the last present to open.

Thanks for all your hard work and dedication on this. You have reignited my love for SH4!

JCC

ps Can't the Kitchen wait? This is important!

:-)

[Nisgeis]

Did you ever have one of those moments when it felt like a light bulb actually went on ? I gotta tell you... it's most gratifying!

I had a few when making the mod... if you think understanding how it works is difficult, try creating it in the first place :DL.

This is working perfectly!

Ruh-Roh!

The only thing that could make this better would be if, when you sent the range and bearing to the TDC if it also put a mark on the Nav or Attack Map that corresponds to them. The only reason I think of this is that it is going to be pretty labour intensive moving from the map to the radar plotting the attack.

But, on the other hand, I can see where plotting the targets course far out an then positioning your boat for an intercept could become a really fun part of the process.

Well, the bearing and range you send to the TDC will be sent to the attack map, in the form of the X with white line. The X will be the point you 'plotted' and the white line will be the AoB (or target course) combined with target speed.

There was a part of this system that was the Dead Reckoning Tracer, which is just to the side of the TDC, where it was planned that it would display the last plot and your current plot 'Ttwo plot and spot', so you could adjust target course and speed, to get a rough manual estimate, but that's for the future.

Thanks for the feedback, it's nice to hear it's being used. I'd like to see some radar plots :-).

EDIT: Oh yes, as Hitman suggested, if you send a radar range and optical bearing, wait a few minutes and send another radar range and optical bearing, you can use the extimate course and speed buton to get a target course and speed (which will be accurate to within one knot and one degree of your measurements). Then you can use the TDC to refine the solution.

[John Channing]

The problem is that TMO removes the "X" from the attack map so yuou don't get a complete plot.

What I need to do is start a new patrol and pick up a contact at long range, run a radar plot to get his course and speed, then close to his track and finish him submerged using the Stadimeter (just like RL).

It may take a few days but I will get you some screenshot (if I can figure out how to post them here).

JCC

[Bubblehead1980]

man , reading this is driving me nuts, i cant wait for the TMO version.

I noticed the range dial in on the A scope in TMO 2.0 works, it only goes up to 10000 yards or so and is a little screwy but its cool and gives an estimate(will put radar on the target and get a reading of say 4,000 yards, then measure on the nav map to the contact and usually no more than 50-150 yards off, not bad, helps actually.So I really can not wait to try this excellent work of art out.Radar and 3d TDC? Just cant beat it. :arrgh!:

[Nisgeis]

I noticed the range dial in on the A scope in TMO 2.0 works, it only goes up to 10000 yards or so and is a little screwy

How do you only get up to 10,000 yards - what happens when you try to get a reading from further?

[Bubblehead1980]

The readout only counts down from 10, doesnt go above, so if target is more than than 10,000 yards, the readout just goes up to 100 and goes a little haywire, its not perfect but it helps.

[John Channing]

Something has gone wrong with your installation of the mod. If you left click on the screen, hold the mouse down and drag to the left (or use the scroll wheel) you should be able to go all the way to 40K yds.

Try installing the mod again.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

The readout only counts down from 10, doesnt go above, so if target is more than than 10,000 yards, the readout just goes up to 100 and goes a little haywire, its not perfect but it helps.

Sorry Bubblehead, I can't make head nor tail out of that report. The readout doesn't go above 10, but it just goes up to 100? :doh:.

'Haywire' sounds like you are dragging the wrong bit the wrong way as JCC suggests.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/RangeUnitCloseUp.jpg

For large adjustments in range, turn the dial marked 'Coarse Range Adjustment' and make sure you drag it in a circular motion. If you drag straight across or up/down then you'll get odd results.

The measured range shown in white above is 1,790 yards or 00.9 miles and the generated range shown in green that the TDC has calculated is 1,230 yards or 00.6 miles.

For fine settings:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/AScopeCloseUp.jpg

Once you are in the right ball park, put the cursor on the scope and drag it left to right, OR up and down. Don't drag it in a circle. You have to be in Precision mode to use the 'A' Scope effectively.

If that doesn't help, post a screenshot of what you mean by 10 and 100, or re-install the mod.

[Bubblehead1980]

no no, not using your mod yet, waiting for the TMO version.

TMO 2.0 as released has a readout on the A scope itself and the readout only goes up to 10,000 yards.:arrgh!:

[Nisgeis]

no no, not using your mod yet, waiting for the TMO version.

TMO 2.0 as released has a readout on the A scope itself and the readout only goes up to 10,000 yards.:arrgh!:

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... :yeah:

[Munchausen]

The problem is that TMO removes the "X" from the attack map so yuou don't get a complete plot.

:hmmm: It would be nice to have that "X" available on the navigation map so its location could be plotted via the pencil. But, at least there's the following:

Oh yes, as Hitman suggested, if you send a radar range and optical bearing, wait a few minutes and send another radar range and optical bearing, you can use the extimate course and speed buton to get a target course and speed (which will be accurate to within one knot and one degree of your measurements). Then you can use the TDC to refine the solution.

:up: That should work too.

[Nisgeis]

The problem is that TMO removes the "X" from the attack map so yuou don't get a complete plot.

What I need to do is start a new patrol and pick up a contact at long range, run a radar plot to get his course and speed, then close to his track and finish him submerged using the Stadimeter (just like RL).

It may take a few days but I will get you some screenshot (if I can figure out how to post them here).

JCC

How are you getting along with it? Don't forget you can use the radar to calibrate the stadimeter for perfect mast height, regardless of the target.

Anyone else got any feedback?

[John Channing]

Real life has been getting in the way. I hope to take it out for a real shakedown later today. If so I will let you know.

But from what I have seen so far anyone who is playing SH4 without this mod is missing out on about half of the realism they could be enjoying.

Outstanding.

JCC

[Bubblehead1980]

Real life has been getting in the way. I hope to take it out for a real shakedown later today. If so I will let you know.

But from what I have seen so far anyone who is playing SH4 without this mod is missing out on about half of the realism they could be enjoying.

Outstanding.

JCC

Just awaiting the TMO version then it's time for some serious training.:yeah:

[John Channing]

So here is a little preliminary feedback.

THIS IS REALY HARD!

I decided to keep the training wheels on for the moment so I am continuing my current patrol with map updates still on.

I picked up a radar contact at 12Kyds and began the plot. The problem is that the radar wouldn't hold the contact because of bad weather conditions so each time I got back to the A Scope from the map the contact had vanished. This was aggravated by the old bug where the radar won't stay in focus mode when you leave the radar station screen so each time I went to the map I would lose the contact again.

Eventually I was able to close him enough to hold a steady contact and, from there I was able to plot his course sufficiently well that I can see myself being able to do it without map contacts on. The problem is that it is really hard to get a spot on bearing as the radar signal covers about 7-10 degrees, and at 12Kyds, that is a considerable margin of error. Knowing where, exactly, to position the sweep is going to be key in getting an accurate solution.

The most fun I have had with SH4 in some time. Anyone who calls themselves a Grognard should be using this.

If the radar would stay in focus mode it would lighten the work load considerably. Perhaps this was fixed in later versions of TMO? I am using 1.5.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

The problem is that the radar wouldn't hold the contact because of bad weather conditions so each time I got back to the A Scope from the map the contact had vanished. This was aggravated by the old bug where the radar won't stay in focus mode when you leave the radar station screen so each time I went to the map I would lose the contact again.

Yep, the radar is modelled so that if a wave comes between you and the target, then you won't be able to see the target anymore, which is accurate. The focus mode thing is annoying, but the best way to get around it is to simply turn the radar off when you move away from the station. When you return it will be where you left it. This works pretty well and also reduces your chances of being detected by any RWR equipped escorts.

Eventually I was able to close him enough to hold a steady contact and, from there I was able to plot his course sufficiently well that I can see myself being able to do it without map contacts on. The problem is that it is really hard to get a spot on bearing as the radar signal covers about 7-10 degrees, and at 12Kyds, that is a considerable margin of error. Knowing where, exactly, to position the sweep is going to be key in getting an accurate solution.

The easiest and most accurate results will come from radar range and optical bearings. If you can't see the target, then you're well into the realms of advanced radar usage here. When I get some time I'll do a 'pipology' tutorial on how to use the radar to identify targets and sort them all out, but for now this will do.

The radar is set up so that the radar beam is emitted from the radar bearing through an arc to the right side with a width of whatever the radar beam is. If in TMO the radar beam is set to be 7 degrees wide (I don't know if it is) then the radar will detect a target that is at 90 degree relative bearing to you, when the radar is at 90 degrees and all the way through to 97 degrees. So, to get a radar bearing, sweep over the target, until the pip disappears and then step anti-clockwise with the mouse wheel until you re-acquire the pip and that's the bearing of the target. In bad weather, this is more difficult if the pip is disappearing of its own accord, but this is one of the problems of using a radar and why they couldn't get an instant range and bearing for distant targets and why optical bearings were much better. Once you get into tracking multiple targets are long range, then that's where things really do get interesting, as the targets merge into one pip, if they have similar range and bearing. That's when you can get an appreciation for what skill using the radar required. You can also get a rough idea of the bearing by putting the trace line directly through the pip on the PPI scope.

[Bubblehead1980]

Reading this makes me want to use this mod even more.:arrgh!:

[John Channing]

Then this should drive you over the edge.

I picked up a radar contact at about 12Kyds. Got an initial range an bearing on him and started the plot. Waited about 5 minutes and got a second range and bearing , plotted it, drew an intersection between it and the first one and had his course (these are the first two marks below). The I took range and bearing every few minutes and, using the protractor and the ruler, got his track down cold.

Now I am still running with Map Updates on so I was able to check the results with reality and at longer ranges it was spot on. I was able to plot his course within a few hundred feet!

As he got closer the error rate increased (probably due to my inexperience with it) but I was still able to plot his track by lining up his estimated course between my bearing marks that were, in actuality, off his track in either direction by a few hundred yards either way. By the time he came into visual range I was out of position for a good attack (mainly because I had been concentrating on the plot) but with a litttle more practice I will be able to conduct an attack exactly the way I have wanted to since this was in Beta!

Now I have seen a couple of radar plots from WWII subs and, you know what? They looked a lot like this...





http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=331&pictureid=2443


This was a great experience! I am heading back to Midway for a re-fit and then back on patrol with Map Contacts off. Nisgeis... take a Gold Star out of petty cash!

Next... learning to use the 3-D TDC!

JCC

[Bubblehead1980]

yep, just drove me off the cliff lol man i cant wait :arrgh!:

[Runnybabbit]

Hi,

Just downloaded, and will give this some serious time this week, thanks sincerely for going to all this trouble! :cool:

Now, if Ubisoft had such dedication to the finished product, just imagine... :arrgh!:

[Lionfish298]

*gnashes teeth*

This makes me want to disable TMO so I can use this. :wah:

[John Channing]

You don't have to disable TMO. I am running it (currently) with TMO 1.5 and have no problems at all. With later versions of TMO you will (apparently) lose some eye candy but let me tell you.... it's really worth it.

I have the radar to the point where I can set up a pretty accurate plot so now I am onto the TDC.

And it's a hoot!

JCC

[reaper7]

Wow was just browsing through the forums and came across this. Amazing stuff. Also after seeing your plotting JCC, (never got as far as Manual Plotting myself) I'm tempted to reinstall SH4 and TM2.0 with this and head back to the Paciffic for a while. :D

[razark]

I have the radar to the point where I can set up a pretty accurate plot so now I am onto the TDC.

Alright, folks! This guy seems to have quite a handle on this radar stuff. How do we convince him to write up a great how-to manual so the rest of us can learn it?

[Nisgeis]

Alright, folks! This guy seems to have quite a handle on this radar stuff. How do we convince him to write up a great how-to manual so the rest of us can learn it?

Have you tried the mod? If you have had any problems, then I can answer any questions.

[razark]

Have you tried the mod? If you have had any problems, then I can answer any questions.

Not yet. I loaded it to look at it, and it looks nice. After my current campaign, I'll probably try it. I just think having a really good, thick manual would help the learning curve.

[Nisgeis]

How to use the radar to follow targets is detailed here:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/radar/part3.htm#pg10

That's the original handbook for the radar and most of it applies when using this mod. That probably covers everything better than I could.

How the plot should be arranged:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm#chap05 Scroll down to page 5-36 for a description of an ST periscope radar plot, a stdimeter only plot and a radar range and optical bearing plot (The RADAR plot). The RADAR plot says it is desriable to have one plot every minute, but a plot every 30 seconds is possible. I find it fairly easy to plot every minute. You get a great plot. I'll post one some time.

Reading the real manuals will give you far better info than I could post, plus I'd just be reapeating it all anyway.

Did you want a 'how to plot in game' tutorial as well?

[John Channing]

Alright, folks! This guy seems to have quite a handle on this radar stuff. How do we convince him to write up a great how-to manual so the rest of us can learn it?

I accept cash as well as all major credit cards!

Read through the stuff Nisgeis has listed below. If you need help translating real world to game then give me a shout.

Best idea is to dive in and try it. It's an amazing sense of satisfaction when this...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=331&pictureid=2456


Leads to this...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=331&pictureid=2457
JCC

[Hitman]

This little tool I did might simplify considerably the task of plotting: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138514

It is now stored here: http://www.mediafire.com/?d4dmjqh115z

:salute:

[irish1958]

Mod works great and really adds to the experience. The cited manuals are interesting. I have read a bit of them but almost 200 pages will take a bit of time. This mod has elevated SH4 to a must have sim.
I really don't like stock SH4 v.1.5; any chance of getting a TMO 2.0 version?

[elanaiba]

Nisgeis... how the hell did you do all this ?!

Amazing stuff.

[John Channing]

And while you two are talking see if you can help him hook a button on the radar page that would send the data (range and bearing) directly to the TDC.

:D

JCC

[zero2005]

So there is going to be a TMO release? what about for the other boats? im runnin TMO 2.0 + RSRD and experimenting with this, seemed good last night when i played with it for like 10 minutes - but my green numbers werent clicking, just the white, and the 3d TDC was spinning madly round and round.

[Nisgeis]

Nisgeis... how the hell did you do all this ?!

Amazing stuff.

A lot of research into how the TDC and range unit actually worked, a bit of lateral thinking so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a fox and then massive abuse of dial controllers and the radar scope screen model and then a whole lot of work. The main credit should go to skwas and S3D, without which I'd never have even attempted it. In total there's over 5,000 new nodes to get it all to work (about five times what the original interior had in total). I'd never had hex editted all that in.

BTW, Can I use that quote in my promotional literature? :DL

EDIT: If you're interested in these machines, which I know you are, then it's actually quite something to stand there and watch the situation develop on the TDC, without anything else.

And while you two are talking see if you can help him hook a button on the radar page that would send the data (range and bearing) directly to the TDC.

:D

JCC

That would be super useful, but I don't think there is a way.

So there is going to be a TMO release? what about for the other boats? im runnin TMO 2.0 + RSRD and experimenting with this, seemed good last night when i played with it for like 10 minutes - but my green numbers werent clicking, just the white, and the 3d TDC was spinning madly round and round.

The green numbers are the generated range that the Position Keeper part of the TDC is tracking. If the PK isn't on, then it won't change. And yeah the TDC will appear to spin madly until you start the PK and work out what each dial means. Some will spin madly, because they are changing rapidly.

TMO version soon (TM).

[elanaiba]

EDIT: If you're interested in these machines, which I know you are, then it's actually quite something to stand there and watch the situation develop on the TDC, without anything else.


Aye! Interest in all this stuff is the number one thing that got me into simulation as a player, and later as a developer. Its the stuff that made me dig deep in the German TDC for SH3, and so on.

But this stuff... I know what it was supposed to do :) but hell, still amazing to see it done. By a modder!

Hat's off to you.

[AVGWarhawk]

Bump

[Nisgeis]

Bump

Have you been to the Torsk recently, hint hint? :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Have you been to the Torsk recently, hint hint? :D


Actually no. What do you need? Pic of the TDC in the con? Can do if you want it.

[Nisgeis]

Actually no. What do you need? Pic of the TDC in the con? Can do if you want it.

And the torpedo spread angle calculator above the angle solver please, if you can.

[AVGWarhawk]

And the torpedo spread angle calculator above the angle solver please, if you can.

I will be there July 17th. I will see if she still has one and take the picture for you. Just made my appt reminder on my phone to check it out. :up:

[zero2005]

here's a question, it says on the main page that its available for the balao and gato boats, but i only have it for the gato?

[Nisgeis]

The Balao and Gato share the same model in the stock game. You must be using a mod that creates a new unique interior for the Balao.

[Nisgeis]

For those that want some simple missions to practice with, I have uploaded a set of radar training missions for you to practice with.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1952

Mission 1

An assortment of ships at close range, so you can practice taking bearing with the radar with the PPI scope and then then 'A' Scope.

Missions 2

Three stationary targets at longer range for you to practice sinking.

Mission 3

A variety of moving ships for you to practice targetting and sinking:

Target on known course of 105, approaching from the NW.
Target on unknown and different course each time, approaching from NE.
Target on unknown and different course each time, with an unknown random zig pattern.

Mission 4

The same as mission 3, except in the fog, so you cannot use optical bearings.

When you have mastered all the missions, try them with map contacts off and then try them whilst you are cruising along, instead of being stationary.

[zero2005]

Ah, yea, dunno my version must have gotten corrupted with a recent spyware attack. after rebooting clean, it was working on a couple more boats than just the gato/balao (also probably the boats that share gato interior?). but my hydrophone station was jacked up, the send range to TDC and the range switches were completely gone. dunno if this is conflict with TMO 2.0 or not, and am going to attempt re-installing the 3d TDC to see if it fixes it.

also noticed that occasionally i would have problems getting the taget blips to come on the A-scope. but might also be a side effect of the mods + my spyware intrusion...

if i find out more i'll let you know

edit: thanks for the missions too!

[Nisgeis]

also noticed that occasionally i would have problems getting the taget blips to come on the A-scope. but might also be a side effect of the mods + my spyware intrusion...

OK, well not sure about the send range switch missing from the sonar stack, that might be a problem with the mod, let me know!

Does the target appear on the PPI scope as well? If not, then it's probably an aircraft screaming in. If it does, then switch to the longest scale (40k non precise mode) and sweep just a few degrees anti clockwise of the pip on the PPI scope and see if the pip appears on the 'A' Scope.

[zero2005]

nah, i confirmed it was a ship (Hakusika Maru). but thanks for the tip on the Aircraft!
EDIT: more info on the contact issue, its fluctuating, i think, because the boat is rocking back and forth ever so slightly while surfaced. at radar depth, i have no problem having a solid pip. fully surfaced the antenna is bobbing about like a bouy. wind speed 7, direction 327, target at my approx 280-290, range 12.4nm.

also, i used JSGME to install the test missions, and there's no option to select Balao or Gato (its under Sub School?) just the Porpoise.

disabled then re-enabled the mod via JSGME, and switches are still missing from sonar stack.

mods are(in order of JSGME):

TMO 2.0
RSRDC_TMO_v502
RSRDC_V5XX_Patch1
HI RES Red fin Balao
3D TDC/Range unit
Radar Training Missions

disabling the mod brings the switches back for TMO 2.0, but thats no fun since now i am left squinting at the radar pips trying to guess range lol.

[John Channing]

Place the mission folders manually into the singlemission folder. Then you can select either Balao or Gato from Single Missions.

JCC

[zero2005]

Ah thanks alot, lol im such a noob

[John Channing]

Don't feel bad. I struggled with that for a day or so before I figured it out.

JCC

[zero2005]

ok, so here's one last update on my bug find for the missing switches, it seems they're not missing, they've just been misplaced! after re-installing everything, i have found that they're normal location, which is usually right below the range indicator, has just the 2 dots that surround the normal switch location (and the labels for them too)

BUT i found the actual switches! they have just been moved, to the right side panel where the gold handle is! right above where the send bearing switch is (hey great, i NEVER knew that switch was there to begin with lol that would have helped a ton)

so i can still use them, they're just kinda out of the way a bit. not too big a deal. i'll see if i can get a good screenshot up of what i mean.

[Donkey-Shot11]

I've installed this mod with JSGME, but I can't get SH IV to work now. I get a bunch of messages saying .tga files are missing.

[Nisgeis]

If you uninstall it, does the problem persist. Also, what do the error messages actually say?

[Donkey-Shot11]

The intro wil play, the splashscreen loads up to near 100% but than hangs before the main menu is loaded. When I press alt-tab I get messages that the following files are missing: black80.tga, CrewSysteManagement.dds, Dials_us_metric.tga, dials_us_metric.tga & hud.tga

I also get the following message: There is a new (not implemented) page: <Page ChooseLoadSave>

When I uninstall 3D TDC, I can run SH IV without incident. I have SH IV freshly installed with patch 1.4, no other mods. I run SH IV on Win7 64 bit.

[Nisgeis]

Thanks for that detail Donkey-Shot. The mod is designed for the latest version, which is 1.5 (U-Boat Missions Add-On), but there shouldn't be anything in there that changes the menu items, so I don't know why that's happening. I can't confirm whether or not it does work with 1.4 for definate - does anyone else run this mod with 1.4?

[Bubblehead1980]

Just figured Id both you with this question lol TMO 2.0 version soon? :arrgh!: Thanks for the great work.

[Patchman123]

Does it also flash correct solution when you have a correct shooting solution, as well?

[Nisgeis]

Does it also flash correct solution when you have a correct shooting solution, as well?

Not yet. Working on it.

[FIREWALL]

Just when you think it can't get any better.

Thx Nisgeis:salute: Because of this mod I'm reinstalling SH4 1.5 :DL

[Wilcke]

Not yet. Working on it.

Awesome! Thanks!

[Nisgeis]

Just when you think it can't get any better.

Thx Nisgeis:salute: Because of this mod I'm reinstalling SH4 1.5 :DL

Range to Track Indicator is still to come as well. Let me know how you get on with the mod if you do try it. I haven't gotten much feedback, compared to the number of downloads :hmmm:.

EDIT: JCC is also working on some tutorials for the mod too, for people that are finding it tough going.

[Bubblehead1980]

Range to Track Indicator is still to come as well. Let me know how you get on with the mod if you do try it. I haven't gotten much feedback, compared to the number of downloads :hmmm:.

EDIT: JCC is also working on some tutorials for the mod too, for people that are finding it tough going.

Soon as TMO version is out, ill give you plenty of feedback:salute:

[Hylander_1314]

Just downloaded, but am 3500 miles from base, so it will be a while before I can install it. I've only burned up 3 fish so far on my Gato. So that leaves me with 21 to go. Plus the deck gun. Unless we get sunk.

[I'm goin' down]

as near as I can tell, the Radar Range Mod conflicts with the East Aob mod. If I activate the Easy Aob mod before or after activating the Radar Range mod, I get the following:

I cannot see the triangle on the Radar screen.
I cannot see the 3d TDC
The stop watch and tools revert to full size in TMO 2.0.
The stop watch appears on the left side of the screen rather than the right side.

I fiddled with the order the mods were activated and this is what I came up with.

Maybe someone has a fix, such as jaminadrid (JTex???).

[Nisgeis]

Just downloaded, but am 3500 miles from base, so it will be a while before I can install it. I've only burned up 3 fish so far on my Gato. So that leaves me with 21 to go. Plus the deck gun. Unless we get sunk.

It can be installed at sea.

as near as I can tell, the Radar Range Mod conflicts with the East Aob mod. If I activate the Easy Aob mod before or after activating the Radar Range mod, I get the following:

I cannot see the triangle on the Radar screen.
I cannot see the 3d TDC
The stop watch and tools revert to full size in TMO 2.0.
The stop watch appears on the left side of the screen rather than the right side.

I fiddled with the order the mods were activated and this is what I came up with.

Maybe someone has a fix, such as jaminadrid (JTex???).

If you're using it with TMO, remove the menu folder in the data folder and that should fix the stopwatch changing sides and tools changing size. As for not seeing the 3D TDC, then it's only in the Gato and Balao at the moment, are you in one of those boats? Pressing F9 in TMO will take you to the TDC. You could also try removing cameras.dat as well and see what happens.

[Donkey-Shot11]

Okay, I installed U-Boat missions and got it working. I don't see the triangles on the A scope and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing when I'm dragging the mouse cursor over the A scope.

Might there be something wrong with the mod, files missing, or am I doing something wrong? Is there some step I need to take to see the triangles on the a scope?

[John Channing]

It's probably a question of understanding how it all works. Be paitient, a tutorial is coming.

JCC

[Donkey-Shot11]

Good, I'm looking forward to one. This mods got a lot of potential, but it could use a good step by step explenation. I hope to seen one soon, I'm itching for a good night surface attack: radar only! :D

[Nisgeis]

Okay, I installed U-Boat missions and got it working. I don't see the triangles on the A scope

Can you see the range unit (the thing with all the numbers on it) and are you in a Gato or Balao class boat?

[I'm goin' down]

that is me in the Barbarinna. I am the boat practicing the O'Kane method.:D

[Nisgeis]

that is me in the Barbarinna. I am the boat practicing the O'Kane method.:D

Could you post up a screenshot of what you do see then? If you installed the mod and you are in a Gato, then you should see the range unit (with all the numbers on it). Not seeing the TDC either would suggest it hasn't installed properly.

[I'm goin' down]

It can be installed at sea.



If you're using it with TMO, remove the menu folder in the data folder and that should fix the stopwatch changing sides and tools changing size. As for not seeing the 3D TDC, then it's only in the Gato and Balao at the moment, are you in one of those boats? Pressing F9 in TMO will take you to the TDC. You could also try removing cameras.dat as well and see what happens.

I could not find the folder you are referring to in the TMO data file.

[Nisgeis]

Go into whichever folder your mods folder is, then go into the radar mod folder, go into the data folder. Delete the menu folder.

[I'm goin' down]

I delete the menu file. The compass and tools reverted to original size. The stop watch reverted to the right side of the screen. However, the mod does not show up. I tired both a Gato and Gar in 1943. Any ideas? F9 takes me to the correct station but not the mod.

[Patchman123]

Is it also possible to make an RFB version as well?

That would be nice. Could we also change the TBT as well and have it transmit to the TDC as well? Does it also work with the TBT as well?

14C1. General. The target designation system is used for the purpose of transmitting and indicating the bearing of the target from the bridge or radar to the torpedo data computer (TDC) and the 2 plotting stations.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap14.htm

The bridge thing with the angle on bow can be removed also. How would you make it work with the TBT as well?


PROCEDURES DURING THE APPROACH AND ATTACK; Using the TBT, Radar, Periscopes, Sonar, the bearing of the target is fed into the TDC. When ranges are obtained or estimated, this is manually cranked into the TDC. When target course is estimated, using angle on the bow, this is manually cranked into TDC. An estimate of target speed (sometimes using sonar shaft turn count) is manually cranked into TDC. Now the TDC operator has the following: Submarine course and speed, Target bearing, range, course and speed. At the same time the DRT operator is plotting the target bearing and range on the track sheet from the little light that is keeping track of the submarine course and speed. All of this is just the initial estimate. When periscope observations are made, the approach officer should be made aware of the submarine speed, and depth, so as to minimize the feather of a wake made by the scope He should also be made aware of the time elapsed since the last observations, as this may give some indication of whether or not the target is on a zig zag plan and changing course about every six minutes. The TDC operator should also announce what the generated bearing of the target is so the periscope can be placed on the target immediately. Periscope observations should be of only a few seconds duration. The primary purpose of each periscope observation is to determine the target bearing (this is accurate and automatically transmitted to the TDC), the angle on the bow, ie: the target course , and the target range (described above). The range is an estimate, but can be refined by using ST radar.

http://www.bergall.org/320/patrol/torpedo.html

I was wondering if there could be a seperate TDC station as well added into the game on the menu bar in SH4. Could the TDC functions be removed for the bridge also to make the TDC more realistic? Can you also get the TDC to work with the TBT as well?


Can you also manually calculate the speed and angle on bow? The angle on the bow should be transmitted into the TDC as well. How would you implement a new system where the TBT works differently like the AOB thing is removed from the interface of the TBT and replaced just transmitting the bearing.

The bearing transmitter should dials should start working when a ship is locked on by the TBT on a target like a ship.

[John Channing]

Using TMO 1.5 it works perfectly with the TBT.

Tutorial coming (slowly).

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Could you post up a screenshot of what you do see then? If you installed the mod and you are in a Gato, then you should see the range unit (with all the numbers on it). Not seeing the TDC either would suggest it hasn't installed properly.

Naw. Nope. No way. I just reloaded the mod. the menu file was deleted per your advice. Guess what? Now the tools on the Nav Map are the correct size. The stop watch is on the right side. The radar range mod is working. I am good to go. :woot: I still have to figure out how to use it:hmmm:, but I am working on it. Thank you for your help.:salute:

[Donkey-Shot11]

@Nisgeis: Sorry for the late reaction, I can see everything: except for the two triangles on the A-scope. Everything else is visible.

[Nisgeis]

@Nisgeis: Sorry for the late reaction, I can see everything: except for the two triangles on the A-scope. Everything else is visible.

Hmmm, sometimes the green triangle isn't that visible. The white one starts off at 0, so it is tucked to the very left of the screen and hidden by the radar shroud. Move the dial or drag the screen and it should pop into view.

[Donkey-Shot11]

@Nisgeis: that did it. I can now see them both. I was looking in the wrong place. I was looking underneath the rader signal (greew wavey line) instead of in it.

Now that I've found what I was looking for (sounds odly religious, anywho...), I'll go give this mod a try.

[TopcatWA]

Great Mod. Can't wait to give it a go.
Thanks for the effort & operating input:yeah:

[Nisgeis]

Great Mod. Can't wait to give it a go.
Thanks for the effort & operating input:yeah:

Thanks for the future feedback, hint hint :DL.

[Donkey-Shot11]

Well, I gave it a try: it works! Managed to sink me a large tanker in heavy rain with near zero visibility. I didn't know it was a tanker just seconds before I fired my torpedoes. I fired a spread of tree fish, all of them hit home.

The most dificult thing to get right is the bearing. Right now I just take a whole lot of bearing/range readings and I'm hoping the errors average themselves out. As soon as I get a reasonebly consistent plot from my crew, than that's what I'll use.

Of anyone has any tips on getting the bearing right with radar I'ml be all ears. Oh, plotting a single target inside a convoy is also pretty tricky, it's hard to figure out wich blip is wich :)

[Nisgeis]

Well done Donkey-Shot, congrats. Yep, you have to keep a mental map of where all the ships are so when they cross bearings or range you can hold it in your head for when they uncross. With enough practice, you'll get like Neo in The Matirx.

Bear in mind that radar wasn't the best tool to use for bearings, so if you have a choice, use the periscope. To get radar bearings, sweep over the target clockwise, then step backwards (anti-clockwise) with the mousewheel until the pip appears and that's the target's bearing. Rock it back and forth over the pip to keep following the bearing. If the target is at 045, you'll get a radar return from 037 through to 045, so what you're doing is using the 'trailing edge' of the radar lobe (beam) to get the bearing. It's slower than using optical bearings and can be quite dis-orientating with multiple targets.

When I do the next update, I'll trun down the gain on the 'A' Scope, so you can more clearly see the different in pip heights at longer range - the larger targets are actually larger spikes.

[zero2005]

yea, been usin it to try and get bearing/range for some plots on a taget (momoyama maru) at range to get his speed, but so far its been way off, first time i got 8 knots, second, 15 knots, and now i just did it for the 3rd time and get 12 knots. i've tried the step back, and it still seems to jump around alot. sometimes i'll run the beam over him where i know he's at, and the pip on both the Ascope and PPI dont show up, so i have to step back again to find him.

i am at around 10 nm running parallel to him (about to set up for attack and see if i can get a better return on speed using sonar instead) at the very least i have a pretty accurate course.

[Donkey-Shot11]

@Nisgeis: I realy love this mod. I've always loved working with radar, in real life too. When I was kid I went to fishery school (yeah, we have those in Holland :) ) and I took an extra course: radar observer. It was pretty intense, but I loved it. I had to know every single part of the radar, I had to know what it was and what it did. I also had to know everything about every kind of clutter and how to negate it, how to tell real echo's from every kind of fake echo from side lobes, to clutter, to interference (or bananas because, well, they look like bananas :)). It's been a long time since I've stopped sailing, so my knoledge is pretty rusty. But some if it's still stuck in there.

That's one of the things I sorely missed in SH IV: radar, in my opinion one of the most notable differences between fleetboat and u-boats. A very powerfull tool indeed. But, a tool that's not as easy or straightforward as many movies and games would have us believe. Take the ppi for instance: radar echo's are rarely 'dots'. They're more often seemingly radomly shaped blobs. And a sampam certainly doenst give the same echo as big BB. :)

And one of the things I also miss is being able to spot land. And navigate by it. Imagine doing a night or fog aproach in some coastal ereas. And remember: the coastline being shown on radar are only the highest points, the real coast could extend from that quite a bit. :)

But that's what I love about sensors like that, figuring out the situational awareness. Using your knoweldge and wits to figure out what's real and what's not and what's going on in the world around you.

Hmm, I've noticed this become a pretty lengthy reply. But I tend to ramble on quite a bit about things I like. :)

@Zero2005: yeah, it can get pretty messy. Radar isn't too accurate about bearings, but it's spot on when it comes to range. It's best to just get a rough estimate of course and speed when you're at long range and refine when you get closer. Get a radar range combined with visual bearings, and you should be right on target.

Failing that, use experience. What speeds are commen? When I intercepted that tanker, I was acting on a report on the map. Wich said it was a ship traveling at medium speed. In the game that's usualy 9 knots. So imput the speed in advance and checked if the generated range stayed on centered on the real range on the radar (the green triangle in on the A-scope).

What would have been ideal, and I think I've said this a bunch of times before, is if we could have a send range/bearing to TDC, but also to map button. This would seriously reduce the workload for a single player. It wouldn't be a god's eye view. The mark on the map would only be as accurate as the readings you took. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Ubi hasn't put that in, even now in SH V. It seems like such a simple, straight forward idea. Anywho, I see I'm starting to ramble on again.

That's all for now folks, good night and good hunting!

[Nisgeis]

What would have been ideal, and I think I've said this a bunch of times before, is if we could have a send range/bearing to TDC, but also to map button.

Well, you can send the range from the radar to the TDC, via the stadimeter. Make sure you have the stadimeter option in the periscope screen, then whatever you measure will be 'loaded' into the stadimeter, for you to send to the TDC. You have to use the periscope to point to whatever bearing you want though. That's about as good as I can get it. It's not too much hassle once you get used to it. You can't send it to the navigation map though. Various things have been tried, such as transposing the attack map's white X t the nav map, so it can be plotted. Transposing the navigation tools to the attack map, so the X can be plotted. But nothing has worked so far. I'm working on a DRT which may help with this (it would show the radar plot at least).

The coastal return is missing yes :-(. I did some work on arced contacts, which made the radar much more confusing to use. Larger contacts are actually slightly larger on both the PPI and 'A' scope.

[I'm goin' down]

This devise is too sophisticated for me. I got lost in the instructions. I have yet to read Mr. Channing's tutorial.

I deleted the file in TMO per your previous recommendation. I will not use it with my boat, a Gato, until whatever needs fixing is fixed. What is the best way for me to tackle this mod? I am interested in learning how it works, and since everyone is proclaiming it is great, I am committed to trying to figure it out.

In the meantime, I will begin reading Mr. Channings tutorial.

[zero2005]

i take back what i said, i've just sunk 3 ships (yay! no duds either, finally past that date where i can use mk14's again!) very easily using fast-90 + the radar. i've been able to calculate speed to within half a knot, or less in some cases.

usually do the 3-minute thing to get rough speed + course, then i do another 3 minute "update", continue on and add another mark at 5 minutes, and another at 10, and average them all out to get a pretty dang close speed, all the while way beyond the range of sonar/hydrophones.

have yet to use the 3d TDC, someone should make a good youtube video about it lol, maybe show different targets and how it can be used in different situations?

[I'm goin' down]

you posted how you calculate speed not using the mod that this thread addresses. however, you then asked about a tutorial, which is being addressed in another thread by John Channing in this forum. A tutorial will help me too.

[Nisgeis]

you posted how you calculate speed not using the mod that this thread addresses.

He's using the radar to get the speed by plotting the points from the radar, then applying the three minute rule to that plot. :ping: :yep:

[I'm goin' down]

I accept your reading of zero's post. He fooled/mislead/confused me.

[I'm goin' down]

the mod display in the opening post shows four sweep ranges: precision sweep, 3K, 20k and 40k on the A scope. What does precision sweep mean? Is that the same thing as the sweep you describe as providing the approximate range within 3,000 yds.? If so, I assume that the purpose of a precision sweep is so that a captain can then adjust the A scope to the appropriate 3K, 20K, and 40K range, whichever is applicable?

Recently, when I have tried to focus on the target's range, I am not seeing a white triangle. And the green triangle is usually not visible. I am not sure if my range is correct, but when I check it against the map contact it looks like it is. Has anyone else reported this? If I check range on the A scope using the 40K setting when the target's range is actually 18K, will the white triangle and green triangle appear? Or do I have to switch the A scope sweep to 20K? If so, why is that?

Sometimes I have trouble seeing a pip on the A scope radar. Other times I see it, or if there are multiple targets, I see several. Any issues here?

I have never been able to do a fine range adjustment by dragging the white triangle up or down when focused on the pip. Is there an issue here?

Once I get this stuff mastered, I will calculate course and range. Then I will go on to speed. This mod is time consuming, and I assume it will be used by those that play with map contacts off primarily. Why play with the mod if map contacts are on?

[Nisgeis]

the mod display in the opening post shows four sweep ranges: precision sweep, 3K, 20k and 40k on the A scope. What does precision sweep mean? Is that the same thing as the sweep you describe as providing the approximate range within 3,000 yds.? If so, I assume that the purpose of a precision sweep is so that a captain can then adjust the A scope to the appropriate 3K, 20K, and 40K range, whichever is applicable?

The precision sweep is the one to use for measuring the range, all the other settings are for searching for targets. The precision mode or expanded mode is a certain section of the radar trace zoomed in. Normally in the 3k mode, the radar will show all signals received between 0 and 3k yards. At 20k it will show all radar returns that are between 0 and 20k yards. At 40k mode (in reality 80k mode) it shows all target between 0 and 40k all cramped up in that tiny tiny few inches of the 'A' Scope, which is basically just an oscilloscope from zero time to the tie it takes the radar signal to travel 80k yards (in 40k mode). That means the image is too small to get any useful info out of, so what they did was to come up with a way to 'zoom in' on a small section of the radar trace at any given time position (time = distance as the speed (of light) is known). So, in expanded mode the oscilloscope shows only the part of the trace that is 1,500 yards either side of where the range indicator says. When you wind the range indicator up, the zoomed in section of the scope moves up with it. It's like a little magnifying glass on a part of the trace. The early radar sets were basically just time measuring devices. The oscilloscope shows how long it took a radar pules to bounce off a ship and return and the range can be measured by reading off the time with the radar scope. The 'A' Scope is purely a time measurement device, which to be accurate enough need to give the operater a large enough view to get a decent amount of precision (3,000 yards across a six inches as opposed to 40,000 yards across a few inches).

Recently, when I have tried to focus on the target's range, I am not seeing a white triangle. And the green triangle is usually not visible. I am not sure if my range is correct, but when I check it against the map contact it looks like it is. Has anyone else reported this? If I check range on the A scope using the 40K setting when the target's range is actually 18K, will the white triangle and green triangle appear? Or do I have to switch the A scope sweep to 20K? If so, why is that?

The white and green triangles only appear in the precision mode as that's the only time they make any sense and the only time they match up to what is being displayed. To get the triangles you have to be in precision mode, which is always the same position on the switch.

Sometimes I have trouble seeing a pip on the A scope radar. Other times I see it, or if there are multiple targets, I see several. Any issues here?

What happens to the pip - is it flickering on and off? If so that's the waves blocking the target from radar view. You will see multiple pips if there are
multiple targets. Pick one pip and track that for the convoy's course and speed. If you keep observing on the radar scope you should be able to follow the target you are tracking. The biggest pip will be the fattest target, so try to aim for that one.

I have never been able to do a fine range adjustment by dragging the white triangle up or down when focused on the pip. Is there an issue here?

Drag anywhere on the scope, not the triangle and see if that helps. You can drag left / right for quick adjustment and up / down for ultra fine adjustment.

Once I get this stuff mastered, I will calculate course and range. Then I will go on to speed. This mod is time consuming, and I assume it will be used by those that play with map contacts off primarily. Why play with the mod if map contacts are on?

It's a bit of a personal choice really. Mods like this, which are sometimes deemed 'realism' mods or 'hardcore' mods do put a lot of people off as essentially all it does is make the game more difficult, as you no longer have a bird's eye sat nav GPS digitally enhanced 100% up to date view of exactly where 30 ships are at any given point in time. For those that want the added challenge, then you can use this mod and use the radar in an authentically correct way - this is how the radar worked back then. You can use it to understand why they couldn't track multiple targets to within a hair's breadth of its actual position and understand how optical bearings are far superior to radar bearings. You can also get a feel for how disorientated you can get when you are just relying on this type of manual measurement. It can get really confusing really quickly, especially if you are tracking multiple high speed targets in poor visibility. It helps to explain why tracking parties got confused or why targets were lost, in a way that you just can't understand if you play with map contacts on. Play with map contacts on whilst learning it, as it will help to provide positive feedback that you are doing things properly. There's no reason that you have to turn map contacts off, it's entirely up to you. If you do though... it's both easy any hard. It becomes a bit of a mental challenge... you have a mental image of what the convoy is doing and when it doesn't plot the same way then you start to doubt your measurements. Add in RSRD, where the convoys and single targets zigzag and try to track a fast convoy that changes speed and course and you're looking at some head scratchiung moments.

A ship changes course and speed with RSRD with map contacts on and you know immediately. With map contacts off, then three minutes after it changing course and speed you aren't sure it has, but you suspect something and then six minutes later you know.

Sorry for the long response, I don't have time to make it shorter at the moment.

[I'm goin' down]

that was quite a response. very detailed and helpful. Much appreciated.

[Nisgeis]

Just fire away with the questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :DL

[razark]

What happens to the pip - is it flickering on and off? If so that's the waves blocking the target from radar view.

Does the target get lost if it goes on the other side of an island?

Still looking for a chance to play with this. Maybe after this month is over I'll get a chance.

[Nisgeis]

Does the target get lost if it goes on the other side of an island?

Nope, I've never seen it affect it. Just the same with sonar - you can hear ships through land. :88). The 3D waves do affect it though. If the radar antennae can't 'see' the target ship, then you don't get a pip. It's quite well modelled in that respect.

[John Channing]

Update:

I am working on the TDC part of the tutorial. I don't want to frig with you guys, but once the bulb comes on and you get it working it is amazing.

Suffice it to say i just got a perfect kill... 5 torps all hitting exactly where they should have without even doing a plot. Only using the radar and TDC to adjust your position and speed to put yourself in firing position.

The poor SOB never even suspected I was there because I had a perfect solution running and then submerged before he even came into sight! Never even had to put up the scope!

Be patient with me so I can get this done right. Trust me... it's worth the wait!

JCC

ps Here's the results...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=343&pictureid=2583

[John Channing]

Nope, I've never seen it affect it. Just the same with sonar - you can hear ships through land. :88). The 3D waves do affect it though. If the radar antennae can't 'see' the target ship, then you don't get a pip. It's quite well modelled in that respect.


Even changing your aspect ratio to the target can change your results. It makes a big difference how much of the target's beam is facing your radar. When it is broadside you can hold the contact until the cows come home, but when it's bow on you keep losing it. Frustrating, but real!

Funny they forgot about land.

JCC

[razark]

Even changing your aspect ratio to the target can change your results. It makes a big difference how much of the target's beam is facing your radar. When it is broadside you can hold the contact until the cows come home, but when it's bow on you keep losing it. Frustrating, but real!

Funny they forgot about land.

JCC

So, waves block radar. Aspect ratio affects radar.

Land is invisible to radar.
:06:

Alrighty then. Hopefully I'll get a chance to mess with this over the weekend.

[I'm goin' down]

[The range that is measured is put into the buffer used by the stadimeter, so to correctly measure the range, you will need to switch to the periscope or TDC and from the right hand slide out, choose the stadimeter before measuring the range.]

Are you saying that we have two choices to have range input? One is to pull out the attack dials on the upper right and open the range dial? Alternatively, open the TDC on the left and activate the PK? What is the point of periscope view? And do you aim the periscope at something? Do we activate the TDC input before we take our first range measurement? How do we measure time between radar readings? The stopwatch? If we measure time, we have a lot of steps to follow, plus we are jumping around from screen to screen.(Activate TDC, measure range on the A scope, read the bearing, start the timer/stopwatch, plot the bearing and range, Second range reading: repeat to get a second range and bearing, check the timer/stopwatch, plot the range and speed to calculate speed. I am starting to get tired thinking about it.)

Beside the stopwatch, how can we measure time accurately? What screen do we use?

If I am beginning to see the light, this process will take a long time. Besides all of the time it will take to find contacts with map contacts off, plotting an attack will take a really long time. The game will be slowed down, and it will not be too easy to sink a lot of tonnage as quick as before. This mod may be for the very hardcore simmers. I may have to decide if that is how I want to play the campaigns, etc.

[Nisgeis]

[The range that is measured is put into the buffer used by the stadimeter, so to correctly measure the range, you will need to switch to the periscope or TDC and from the right hand slide out, choose the stadimeter before measuring the range.]

That sounds very clever. :DL

Are you saying that we have two choices to have range input? One is to pull out the attack dials on the upper right and open the range dial? Alternatively, open the TDC on the left and activate the PK?

The PK has nothing to do with it, so don't worry about that for using the radar.

Right, the way the radar works, it sort of hijacks a value used by the game in the periscope input dials (the range/AoB and Speed dials). By default it will start on AoB, so if you don't change the periscope to stadimeter mode, then measure a range of say 3,000 yards what you've done is loaded the AoB input with an AoB of 3000. Obviously you can't send the AoB and have it changed the range, so you need to change to the stadimeter before you measure the range if you want to be able to send it to the TDC. Of course you can just get a quick range with any selection, but you won't be able to send it to the TDC and you'll have to select stadimeter and then measure it again, then send.

What is the point of periscope view? There's no other way to send the range other than using the stadimeter. In the previous versions you had to measure the range then input it by dragging the stadimeter round to what you guestimated was the right range and even then you couldn't go up very far. Now it gets loaded into the stadimeter for you and it can go up to 40,000 yards, whereas before it was limited to 8,000 yards or so and not at all an accurate way to enter range, which is a bit of a bad point for highly accurate radar. There is no other way that i know of to get the range from the radar to the TDC as there are no commands to do it. The send range command is a 2D screen command and only appears to work in the periscope or TBT screen. If anyone knows a workaround for this, then I'm all ears.

The other advantage is that you can come to radar depth (or use the ST radar in TMO) and takle a range note what range it points to, then use the split prism stadimeter to measure a point of your choice, then after that's been done drag the range indicator to the point indicated by the radar and that will calibrate the stadimeter perfectly for that target's mast height.

And do you aim the periscope at something?
Aim the periscope at the target you are sending the range of, as it will send the bearing at the same time,. If you can't see the target, get the bearing of the target by radar and then point the scope at that bearing and send the range of the target.
Do we activate the TDC input before we take our first range measurement?

Just make sure the stadimeter is selected in the periscope (or TBT) view. No need to do anything else.

How do we measure time between radar readings? The stopwatch?

Oh come on, you know how to measure time :O:. Either use the in game stopwatch or use the actual game time, which is also displayed on the TDC. You can take readings at whole minute intervals and keep an eye on the clock on the TDC to remind you when you need to take a new reading.

If we measure time, we have a lot of steps to follow, plus we are jumping around from screen to screen.(Activate TDC, measure range on the A scope, read the bearing, start the timer/stopwatch, plot the bearing and range, Second range reading: repeat to get a second range and bearing, check the timer/stopwatch, plot the range and speed to calculate speed. I am starting to get tired thinking about it.)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'activate the TDC'. Use optical bearings from the periscoipe or TBT as it's much faster and easier than trying to get the bearing from the radar and range from the radar. Worst possible combo is bearing from the radar and range from the stadimeter :DL. It's not really a lot of work to take a range measurement. If you don't like plotting, then you can send each reading to the TDC and use the 'calculate course and speed' button and have the (particularly bad at maths) XO do it for you. He seems to be able to get a different answer with the same number each time you ask him, but it's accurate to within a knot and a degree based on your measurements. Plotting it out gives you a better overview of what's happening though and your situational awareness will be much higher.

If you find plotting too slow, you can change to the map and then immediately pause the game. You can still use the map tools with the game paused. If you don't like the map tool, then you can use paper or mobo.

Beside the stopwatch, how can we measure time accurately? What screen do we use?

Do you mean accurate or easily? The stopwatch is accurate to the nearest second so you don't need greater precision. Don't lawyers work to the nearest 15 minutes? :-) If you want that authentic WWII tick tock sound, you an use a real stopwatch, but then you are limitted to real time with no time compression and you won't be able to pause the game.

[I'm goin' down]

I asked about time, because your 3D TDC has a device to calculate time (I will call it a clock) which you can use for time, so I was wondering if that is what your wanted us to use. If not, why include it? Historical accuracy? In response to your jest re using the stopwatch to calculate speed, I was trying to figure out why you included a clock on the 3D TDC.

Now for the stadimet4er, you say nothing about double clicking the stadimeter button to send range. I assume that double clicking the button to send range is not required when your mod is used to calculate range?

The alternative range input tool is the TBT? (Do you mean it is the ships' dials on the left screen?) I understand bearing via the periscope and range via the stadimeter based upon your answers to my recent post. Finally. But how did the ships' dials sneak into the equation re inputting range? It seems odd to use it as an alternative to the stadimeter. Those dials do not have a relation to a target's speed, although they do have a relationship to a target's bearing.

What is the key or entry on the screen to request target bearing and speed?


I think this takes care of my questions re the bearing and range and plotting. I really do not have an idea how the rest of the 3D TDC fits into the picture yet, but first I need to get proficient at bearing, range and plotting, and attack a couple of ships with map contacts off before I am ready to concentrate on those.

Please note that as the mod creator many of the "how to do things" is second nature to you now. You are perfecting an attack scheme that at variance with what many of us are used to in terms of finding bearing and range, so some of sure footed "donkeys" want to make sure we understand all of the steps so we do not fall off the new path and into canyon below.

Supplement added at 7:23 a.m.: I tried tracking. My first and second plot seemed good (map contacts off so I will never know). I was tracking the lead ship in a task force. My third plot did not seem accurate. I may have measured range from to far behind the my boat's present position. Plus, my speed between the 1st and 2nd plots was 31.6 kts. and my speed between my 2nd and 3rd plots was 17.1 kts. Obviously, I made an error. To correct this, I iintend tol write the bearing and range on a piece of paper for the first plot, and do the same plus add the time differential for subsequent plots. I can calculate speed when I am done, and hopefully the speed will be roughly the same. I have to train myself to commit the range and speed to memory before I plot on the Nav. Map, as I find myself rechecking those items. Because the view on the A scope changes when I switch from screen to screen, I have to redo the A scope range and bearing readings which adds a potential screw up to the equation, particularly where keeping accurate time is important to speed calculatlions.

[Nisgeis]

Originally the Time on the TDC was connected to the stopwatch, but there's two problems with the stopwatch. One is it only goes up to 30 minutes then resets to zero :damn:. The second is when you fire a torpedo, the time is not available and replaced by the elapsed torpedo run time. So, I thought it was more useful to have the time going round in full hours, instead of 30 minute sections.

TBT entry = same as for the periscope using the stadimeter.

The request target course and speed is on the Target Speed entry dial on the TBT or periscope. It's the little stopwatch icon. You need to send two ranges and bearing a few minutes apart and from that it will calculate the course and speed.

If you're new to it and don't feel confident in your tracking, then track with map contacts on just to give some feedback that you are doing things correctly.

How do you mean that the view on the 'A' Scope changes when you switch view? You mean it starts to sweep off on its own? Get round that by turning it off, as that will 'freeze' it in place.

[John Channing]

I think what he means is that when you switch out of the Radar screen to the TBT/Periscope screen, the range on the A-Scope sets back to zero.

I can't remember if this happens if you turn off the radar before leaving or not, but it's not a big deal. Just wind the range back out to where the spike is and you are good to go.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

I just checked and it doesn't reset to zero when you switch.

[I'm goin' down]

2 hours later. Battle fatique has taken its toll. I call this learning on the job.

Partial success: I tracked a merchant with no map contacts enabeled. I actually plotted its course pretty accurately considering it was dark. I took several readings and it was ahead of my boat pulling away at 14 or 15 kts. ( I never knew what the little timer was on the stadimeter. I did not know it was a timer!) I am still having problems getting a methodical plan down for starting and stopping the stopwatch. Using the timer on the stadimeter (which only computes speed and course if you take at least two readings), there was a one kt. difference between my plot and the TDC, which thrilled me to no end. However, I could not get ahead of the target without it firing at me, so I let the deck crew do its thing when the boats were on parallel tracks, and they sunk it in about 15 minutes, after a gunbattle. I consider it a victory that I was able to locate the target without map contacts in the dead of night at an initial range of over 8,000 yds.

Since the PK is off, the range readings are static. Is that correct? If it is, once I get ahead of the target and have plotted it course as it approached my position, I assume I use the normal attack routines once the target comes into view.

After sinking the merchant, I had a lot of radar contacts. I hope someone implements the idea you had about preserving radar images of aircraft. It is a pain in the butt when you have no idea if a radar contact is on a course that will not intersect your boat, as you are diving the boat on the assumption that you will avoid one or more aircraft. That is the safe thing to do because you have no idea of an aircraft's heading when map contacts are not enabled.

I will try to leave contacts on while I familiarize myself with this mod. I need to find a target in the daytime as well, as that will make it easier.

Using this mod with map contacts off will slow the rate of play. Attacks take a long time to plot. Bobbing up and down to avoid aircraft is time consuming, but you can avoid the effort if you are a gambler and choose to stay on the surface and risk surviving an air attack. Once the target's course is mapped, the rest of the game is unchanged insofar as I can imagine at this point.

[John Channing]

I just checked and it doesn't reset to zero when you switch.

Hmm..

I'll see if I can get some screenies.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

Note: This post has been superceded as a result of Nisgeis comments.

This friggin' mod will be the death of me. :hmmm:

Here is what I have been doing, and it may be incorrect, so let me know. Unless I am way off, you will see why I find this mod complex.

First range and bearing:
(1) Open the stadimeter (upper left side of the computer screen) to the range button;
(2) Locate and get a fix on the target on the PPI radar screen.
(3) Switch the view to the A-scope screen, and get range and bearing from the A-scope;
(4) Switch to a periscope view and swivel the periscope to the bearing determined by the A-scope;
(5) Click the range button on the stadimeter to send the range (and bearing?) to the TDC? (5a?) Or, do I need to double click it to enter the range on the TBT (which I believe is the dials with the two ships displayed which is located on the screen on the upper left.) I assume I double click the range button;
(6) PK is off throughout;
(7) I do not use the stopwatch in this step (or do I?); and
(8) Plot the range and bearing. I have been putting the computer on pause to do this. I am worried that if I do not pause the computer, the range and bearing plot with be skewed as a result of lapse of time.

Second range and bearing:
(9) Start the stopwatch as soon as the first plot is mapped and the game resumed.
(10) Same procedure as the first (steps 3-5 & 8);
(11) Pause the game after entering the second range into the stadimeter; and
(12) Read the time elapsed on the stopwatch, and use it for the first speed calculation based upon the distance between the first and second plotted points. Restart the game.
(13) Open the stadimeter to the speed dial and click the clock icon so the radarman will give you and estimate of course and speed of the target. If I have followed procedures, manual speed and speed calculated by the TDC should be about the same.

This step confuses me as I have not been able to calculate speed accurately. Working with the stopwatch is a pain.

Thrid range and bearing;
(14) Repeat steps 9-13;
(15) Since this is the third set of range and bearing entries input to the TDC, I double click the timer button on the stadimater (with the speed dial open) to call up the calculation of target speed and course;
(16) Compare course and speed manually calculated for the second - third range and bearing plots to the course and speed generated by the TDC for the first and second plots;
(17) If they are close or equal, plot the target's course, adjust speed on the stadimeter speed dial as necessary; and
(18) Proceed with an attack if within striking distance;

So far it hasn't worked. Let me know if I am on the right track please. (pun intended.) I am having trouble calculating distance between plots and keep track of the time on each plot. When do I start the stopwatch on a plot and when do I stop it?

[I'm goin' down]

I finally found a single merchant. It was night however. I was able to make two plots, but the timer on the stadimeter did not calculate the course and speed, so I must have made a mistake along the way. Also my third plot did not look right as it was either wrong or the target made a huge course change. What will work for me is a step by step explanation with a screenshot tutorial. If everyone else is getting this, then I have a major problem.

[Nisgeis]

I've re-ordered your post and added comments.

First range and bearing:
(4) Open the stadimeter (upper left side of the computer screen) to the range button;
(1) Locate and get a fix on the target on the PPI radar screen.
(2) Switch the view to the A-scope screen, and get range and bearing from the A-scope;
Get the bearing from the periscope first if the target is in view, then get range from the radar. Remember this chant: Optical Bearings and Radar Range. Optical Bearings and Radar Range. Optical Bearings and Radar Range.
(3) Switch to a periscope view and swivel the periscope to the bearing determined by the A-scope;
(5) Double (You only need to send it once in any situation) the range button on the stadimeter to send the range (and bearing?) to the TDC? (5a?) Or, do I need to double click it to enter the range on the TBT (which I believe is the dials with the two ships displayed which is located on the screen on the upper left.) I assume I double click the range button;
The TBT is the Target Bearing Transmitter and is the binocular view on the brige (The letter 'U' takes you to the station. It's the above water magnified targetting system. Use the same button as you do on the periscope screen.
(6) PK is off throughout;
It doesn't matter.
(7) I do not use the stopwatch in this step (or do I?); and
Turn the stopwatch on as soon as near enough instantaneous as you can after you have taken the range and bearing you are going to use. Otherwise you won't know how much time has elapsed between your two readings.
(7a) Send the range and bearing to the TDC as close as possible to your reading. You might as well use this first reading, as it is as valid as the second and third.
(8) Plot the range and bearing. I have been putting the computer on pause to do this. I am worried that if I do not pause the computer, the range and bearing plot with be skewed as a result of lapse of time.
Pause is fine. If you want to track on real time then either put an x with the pencil to mark the position of the sub, or use a different plotting system where you plot your own course and speed as a vector addition when you get more used to it. Use Pause until you get comfortable with taking the plot information.

Second range and bearing:
(9) Same procedure as the first (steps 2-5 & 8);
(10) Start the stopwatch as soon as the target is located on PPI radar;
Stopwatch should already be running from first measurement, or you own't have any idea how much time has elapsed.
(11) Pause the game after entering range on the stadimeter and swiveling the periscope to the new bearing; and
(12) Read the time elapsed on the stopwatch, and use it for the first speed calculation based upon the distance between the first and second plotted points.

(14) Since this is the second set of range and bearing entries input to the TDC, I double click the timer button on the stadimater to call up the calculation of target speed and course;
(15) Compare course and speed manually calculated for the second and third range and bearing plots to the course and speed generated by the TDC for the second and third plots;
(16) If they are close or equal, plot the target's course, enter speed on the stadimeter speed dial; and start the PK

Subsequent range and bearing;
(13) Repeat reading range and bearing at intervals. Compare the measured radar range and optical bearing to the solution on the PK. Update the target problem on the TDC according to your readings and plots.

(17) Proceed with an attack if your measured range and bearing match the generated bearing (which will comfirm your problem on the TDC matches the real ship) and you are in a good shooting position. If not, manouver into a good position. The TDC should be useful in manouvering your boat into a suitable attack position.

So far it hasn't worked. Let me know if I am on the right track please. (pun intended.)

You're almost there!

I was able to make two plots, but the timer on the stadimeter did not calculate the course and speed, so I must have made a mistake along the way. Also my third plot did not look right as it was either wrong or the target made a huge course change.

If it didn't calculate course and speed it should have given you an error in the message window, something like not enough time between measurements or you have to send two measurements to get a speed or something like that. Either you didn't wait long enough between sending the range and bearing to the TDC, or you didn't send two readings.

Plot with map contact on until you get used to it, then you'll be able to see what is wrong and correct it. If the course you plotted looked like a dog's hind leg, then it might not have been your third plot that was wrong. It could have been the second, or even the first plot.

[I'm goin' down]

I just corrected my post that your responded to. I did it before I saw yours. But, your corrections and explanations will work. I will look at them now, and really check them out tomorrow.

[I'm goin' down]

I will enter a new post tomorrow, and list all the steps taking into account your corrections and modifications. I can see how it all fits, although my last speed calculation for a merchant per the radarman had a course much different than I calculated, and the target per the radarman was moving much faster (31 kts.!) than I thought possible. So I still haven't got it down yet.

However, from your last post I have learned some important information that I can include in the action list for plotting with map contact disabled. Please let me know if anything below is inaccurate. I will incorporate your comments in a revised action list. It will prove useful to me, and it may prove useful for the tutorial that John Channing is preparing if the steps are accurate and in correct order. If not, he might want to use the information that is correct and disregard the rest. The only questions I have pertain to the Fifth item below.

Here is what I think I have learned from your post.

First, use PPI to locate the target, and then use the A scope for fine tuning the first bearing and range. However, on the subsequent bearings and ranges, you can probably go directly to the A scope, without going to the PPI first.

Second, one need not double click range or speed to input to the TDC. A single click will suffice. This is different from the "double clicking" used in other situations.

Third, start the stopwatch promptly after obtaining your first bearing and range. You do not stop it until you have finished plotting, but one should record the total time elapsed after each plot to assist in calculating interim determinations of target speed.

Fourth, one will probably need to record bearings and ranges, as well as the time elapsed between plots, as he or she will need to refer to them for speed calculations. Plus, after leaving the A-scope view, I usually forget the range or bearing before I swivel the periscope.

Fifth, one may obtain a target's bearings from (1) the bearing data on the sub's ceiling near the A-scope, (2) the periscope if the target is within range, or (3) the TBT if the target is in range. I will check out the TBT tomorrow, but as I recall, it also provides access to the stadimeter. If so, either a TBT or periscope view can be used to calculate bearing if the target is within range. I assume you must lock on the target to input bearing. Regardless, one may still use either the periscope's or TBT's access the stadimeter to input range, access the speed dial, and access the watch icon on the stadimeter thus enabling the radarman to announce the target's course and speed per the TDC once the 2nd and subsequent plots have been determined. Conversely, if one cannot see the target through either the periscope of the TBT, I assume there is nothing gained by aiming either the the periscope or the TBT at the bearing designated by the A scope, so why do it? It would be a waste of energy and useless exercise, as the bearing data is already in the TDC per the A scope solution. I assume this is correct.

My action list is quite lengthy. It confirms that this is a highly technical mod. The upside is that it allows one to play with map contacts disabled. The downside is that it will take practice to perfect for many captains who, like me, are not seasoned veterans as to some of the more highly technical aspects of the sim. Although attacking targets with map contacts disabled is a slow and arduous process, some may relish it precisely because of the technical challenge and thrill of hunting with map contacts disabled. Others will find it too technically challenging and may not enjoy the slower pace it brings to the sim. One misstep and you can pretty much write off a torpedo attack. Also, calculation of Aob has to be a challenge with map contacts disabled, unless you know the target's course and set up for a 90 degree broadside. I haven't thought about whether the Easy Aob mod is useful when map contacts are off. That may be an issue worthy of consideration and discussion down the road.

I assume that playing with map contacts disabled is more realistic than with map contacts enabled, but I do not know for sure, for whatever that is worth.

[Nisgeis]

The only way to input the bearing is to point the perioscope or TBT at the bearing you obtained from the radar. Bearing is sent at the same time the range is, so get range and point scope at bearing then send range (and consequently bearing the periscope is pointed at).

[Gorshkov]

After reading Goin'down's review it seems you created too complicated (map contacts disabled) or unnecessary (map contacts enabled) mod, Nisgels. :rotfl2:

[Nisgeis]

After reading Goingdown's review it seems you created an unplayable or unnecessary mod, Nisgels. :rotfl2:

Once you get the hang of it, it's quite simple. Just like riding a bike. It's not the type of mod that the casual player who plays with auto targetting will like or even try, but for those who want that extra challenge that comes with authenticity, this is for them :DL. It definately does not make the game easier at first, that's certain! If you stick with it, you'll get better solutions and hit more.

[John Channing]

Plus there is a real sense of satisfaction that I have never come close to before. As you sit at the TDC watching the solution devlop, checking it against the data you get fom other sensors, refining it, and then the final shooting observation through the periscope and the kill... for the so-called hard-core player this is as good as it gets.

JCC

[Gorshkov]

Try to run Silent Hunter 1! Supposedly TDC worked fine in this game.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have been watching this but not have used it yet. Is it TMO compatable?

[razark]

I have been watching this but not have used it yet. Is it TMO compatable?
I've just started using it with TMO 2. It works fine, if you remove a couple of files.

[Nisgeis]

I've just started using it with TMO 2. It works fine, if you remove a couple of files.

I've just uploaded version 1.01, which is for stock still. This version restores the previously displaced sonar send keys from the sonar stack and also removes two files that affected the Nav Map tools and chronometer, so it's now kinder to TMO.

>> If you want to use it with TMO, I'd advise removing cameras.dat from /mods/3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v3.01/data/library/cameras.dat<<as TMO moves everything around apparently and you'll go to the wrong stations possibly. Or maybe it's meant to be like that hmmm. Buy anyway, the cameras in TMO are superior to the modified stock one included with my mod. You will still lose the added interior sparkly detail as it overwrites the TMO interior.

Anyway, I discovered why people couldn't see the green triangle, in TMO the start range on the TDC is 0000, so the green triangle is tucked to the far left of the 'A' Scope and hidden by the hood.

[irish1958]

?link

[Nisgeis]

?link

Hasn't changed. Same link as posted in the first post.

[I'm goin' down]

My first attempts to articulate the procedures for using Nisgeis' mod contained some errors and inaccuracies. He posted comments and corrections, which I have considered.

Here is the revised action list for tracking with map contacts disabled. Note, John Channing is in the final stages of completing a tutorial that contains screen shots, but here is an explanation that is probably fairly accurate. Mr. Channing's tutorial is in another thread in this forum. If there are any comments or corrections, feel free to weigh in.

Initial range and bearing reading.

1. On the periscope or TBT screens, open the stadimeter Range Dial. This step must be first, or the range and bearing data will not be sent to the TDC, your solution for target course and speed per the TDC will be in error, and you will have wasted an opportunity to nail the potential target.
2. Go the PPI scope radar screen and locate the target with the radar beam at the applicable distance (3K, 20k, or 40k). See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations. Note, if their is more than one possible target, make sure you track the same one on subsequent range and bearing readings.
3. When the target has been located on the PPI scope radar screen, go the A scope radar screen and switch the dial below the A scope radar screen to sweep mode (i.e. move dial to the far left.) See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations.
4. Read the range. See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations.
5. Read the bearing from the device on the roof of the sub near the A radar scope screen. See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations.
6. Start the stopwatch immediately and let it run.
7. Go to the periscope or TBT screen. If the target is visible, point the periscope or TBT at the target. If the target is not visible, point the periscope or TBT at the bearing per the bearing device located on the sub's roof adjacent to the A radar scope screen.
8. Click the send button on the stadimeter Range Dial (the stadimeter should be open to the Range Dial, per item no. 1, supra.)
9. Record the bearing and range on a note pad. The ships' dials on the left side of the periscope or TBT screen should reflect the range input to the TDC.
10. Plot the target's range and bearing on the Nav. Map. See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations. This is the first of three plots. (Some may wish to pause the game when plotting on the Nav. Map.)

Note: to plot course and speed, multiple plot entries will be required. One of the goals is compare the manual calculation of course and speed of the target to the course and speed solution calculated by the TDC, the later which will be explained infra.

Second reading of bearing and range. TDC makes initial solution of target course and speed.

11. Return to the A scope radar screen. You should be able to locate the target. If not, locate it on PPI radar screen, and once it is located, return to the A scope radar screen sweep mode. See John Channing's tutorial that contains screen shot illustrations.
12. Read and record on a notepad the target's new range.
13. Read and record on a notepad the target's new bearing.
14. Repeat item 7, supra.
15. Repeat item 8, supra.
16. Repeat item 9, supra., if you haven't already recorded the bearing and range and noted in items 12 and 13, supra.
17. Change the view on the stadimeter to the Speed Dial. Single click the tiny timepiece on the stadimeter. This action will transmit a command to the TDC that it calculate the target's course and speed based upon the two bearing and two range entries. The radarman will announce the target's course and speed, and it will be displayed on the dialogue screen. The speed calculation by the TDC should appear on the ships' dials on the left side of the periscope or TBT screen.
18. Switch to the Nav. Map and bring up the stopwatch immediately. Pause the game.
19. You have also manually recorded two range readings which are included in your plots. Calculate the distance traveled between the two plots. Determine speed in the usual manner (3 minute rule, etc.) If your manual speed calculations compare or are close to the speed calculated by the TDC, the speed calculations are probably accurate.
20. Plot the second bearing and range readings on the Nav. Map, and compare the course you have plotted to the course calculated by the TDC. If they are comparable, it is probably correct.

Third reading of bearing and range.

21. Repeat steps 11 - 20. Note: Remember to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial before beginning the third range and bearing reading. This is crucial as noted in item 1, supra.

If successful, you are now tracking the target on the TDC. Attacking it successfully with map contacts off is another issue. I have lots of questions in that regard.

[John Channing]

Try to run Silent Hunter 1! Supposedly TDC worked fine in this game.

Believe me... I have. There is no comparison.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

I've just uploaded version 1.01, which is for stock still. This version restores the previously displaced sonar send keys from the sonar stack and also removes two files that affected the Nav Map tools and chronometer, so it's now kinder to TMO.

>> If you want to use it with TMO, I'd advise removing cameras.dat <<as TMO moves everything around apparently and you'll go to the wrong stations possibly. Or maybe it's meant to be like that hmmm. Buy anyway, the cameras in TMO are superior to the modified stock one included with my mod. You will still lose the added interior sparkly detail as it overwrites the TMO interior.

Anyway, I discovered why people couldn't see the green triangle, in TMO the start range on the TDC is 0000, so the green triangle is tucked to the far left of the 'A' Scope and hidden by the hood.

I use TMO 2.0. Do you advise removing camera.dat? I couldn't find. If I should remove, can you tell me where to find it? I notice the TDC comes up with ranges a few hunderd yards different from the distance I input from your mod. Is that related to the camera.dat file.

[I'm goin' down]

I removed all the camera.dat files (there were 5 of them), as we were not given specific instructions. My game crashed. I had to reinstall SH4 and TMO 2.0. Thanks for the tip! :hmmm: I will reciprocate when the opportunity presents itself.:D

[I'm goin' down]

Might the camera.dat files be screwing up the plot in TMO 2.0? I cannot seem to get it right. My manual calculations do not come close to corresponding the to the range and speed solution made by the TDC.
Also, I have to find the file to delete to make the tools and stopwatch smaller. I went through this earlier, but since I reinstalled TMO, the problem has resturned. I will find the post that provides the solution to this issue.

[I'm goin' down]

I was bound and determined to get an accurate course and speed reading. I got the course to correspond with the TDC solution. Speed is another matter. I measured distance between plots 1 and 2 at 1766 yds. versus 2100 yds. and speed was 13 versus 26 kts. Then on my third plot some minutes later the course was way off and the speed was a mere 83 kts!! This is too hard.

[Nisgeis]

Remove cameras.dat from the mod before installing it, not after. I've updated that poist to read 'If you want to use it with TMO, I'd advise removing cameras.dat from /mods/3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v3.01/data/library/cameras.dat'

Post up the plot data you recorded, e.g.

Time Bearing Range
0:0 276 23,040
3:0 265 21,060
6:0 253 19,380

etcetera. Also post up a screenshot of your plot if you can and I'll have a look at it and see if I can work out what you are doing wrong. As you are having probelms, are you playing with map contacts on yet?

[I'm goin' down]

There is no camera.dat file in my mod. The data/library file/ has a file called US Sub Parts. The only camera.dat file is in the main SH4 folder. If you have updated the mod in the last week or so, that might be the problem. I have version 2.05. Where can I download the most recent version?

[Nisgeis]

There is no camera.dat file in my mod. The data/library file/ has a file called US Sub Parts.

It sounds like you deleted every instance of cameras.dat off your computer. You might have deleted the camera from TMO if you did that and are using it. Only delete files from within a mod! Latest version is in the link in the first post, here it is again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1901

Version is 1.01. When you have downloaded that mod, remove the cameras.dat from that mod and that mod only if you are using TMO. If you did delete the cameras.dat from the TMO mod, you'll have to download that again as well.

Post up your plotting data.

[sergei]

Just to make this absolutely clear IGD, remove the camerat.dat from the mod folder before enabling the mod :DL

[I'm goin' down]

It sounds like you deleted every instance of cameras.dat off your computer. You might have deleted the camera from TMO if you did that and are using it. Only delete files from within a mod! Latest version is in the link in the first post, here it is again:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1901

Version is 1.01. When you have downloaded that mod, remove the cameras.dat from that mod and that mod only if you are using TMO. If you did delete the cameras.dat from the TMO mod, you'll have to download that again as well.

Post up your plotting data.

version 2.05 was another mod I think. but I did not have the version of the radar mod that I just downloaded. I will work on this later, as I am exhausted and frustrated.

[sergei]

See PM

[I'm goin' down]

I installed the correct version of the mod. I am not sure what I had. I still screwed up the plot, but I can keep replaying it until I get it right. I am in the midst of a rain storm so I am using the TBT to send range and bearing. Sergei, I will look for you PM.

[sergei]

I was asking Nisgeis to see PM.
Sorry for the confusion.

[Nisgeis]

Version 1.02 released for stock.

Sergei sent me a change he'd done to the labels graphics and we had a little chat and expanded the idea and came up with this modification to enhance the switches to allow you to see better what mode you are in:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/V102AScope.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/Nisgeis/SubSim/v102PPI.jpg

As you can see there are now four range labels and the tips of the pointers are creamy coloured to enable you to see more easily where they are pointing. PREC means 'Precision' mode and is the mode to use when using the triangle to measure the range exactly.

Download link is in the first post, or here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1901

[razark]

Sergei sent me a change he'd done to the labels graphics and we had a little chat and expanded the idea and came up with this modification to enhance the switches to allow you to see better what mode you are in:
Thanks y'all! That had been bugging me.

[Nisgeis]

Thanks y'all! That had been bugging me.

Feedback = updates, you quiet lot :DL.

[I'm goin' down]

Hypothetical: I get a reading on course and speed that is obviously incorrect. I want to start over. How can I clear the TDC so it does not utilize the incorrect bearing, range and speed data to calculate course and speed once I input new readings?

I do not think I would have been admitted to the Naval Academy!

[Nisgeis]

Hypothetical: I get a reading on course and speed that is obviously incorrect. I want to start over. How can I clear the TDC so it does not utilize the incorrect bearing, range and speed data to calculate course and speed once I input new readings?

The estimate course and speed button will use your last two bearing and range entries, so you can't 'clear' it, but you can take two accurate readings. You enter point A and point B and then calculate the course and speed between those points. There's no point in clearing it... just send two correct measurement points.

I do not think I would have been admitted to the Naval Academy!

No, because you won't answer questions like 'do you have map contacts turned on' and you won't post your plot data when asked :O:.

[I'm goin' down]

I turned map contacts on for my recent mission, but I did not see any including the warship that is now closing. Maybe I nturned them off my mistake. I'll check.

[razark]

Feedback = updates, you quiet lot :DL.
Sorry, I don't have a lot of feedback yet. I've really only started getting into this. A few minutes here and there.

Now, if you'll take the wife and kids, and square it with the boss, I'll give you a nice solid week of testing...
:D

So far, I'm trying to get the procedure down. Not sure I've got it, though. The radar bearings I get are about seven degrees off of a visual bearing through the scope. The range I seem to be getting down alright, though.

[Nisgeis]

The radar bearings I get are about seven degrees off of a visual bearing through the scope. The range I seem to be getting down alright, though.

If you can, use optical bearing and radar range.

Repeat the chant:

Optical bearing and radar range
The best combination will never change
Optical bearing and radar range
Then your plot shall never be strange.

If you must use radar bearing, you MUST use the trailing edge of the radar lobe, e.g. when you have swept over the target clockwise, when you go counter clockwise to pick the target back up after you have swept over it, as soon as you have picked up the target then that's the bearing. Due to faults in the sensors in SH4, the radar will pick up a target at relative bearing of 000 (due north) from 353 to 000.

If you can see the target though, use optical bearings over radar bearings because they are much, much better!

[razark]

Optical bearing and radar range
The best combination will never change
Optical bearing and radar range
Then your plot shall never be strange.

Taping that to the side of the computer. :DL

I was using the radar bearing to try and get a handle on it for plotting long range contacts. I started beyond visual range, and once I moved closer, I took a peek through the scope to verify. I've turned map contacts back on.

If you must use radar bearing, you MUST use the trailing edge of the radar lobe, e.g. when you have swept over the target clockwise, when you go counter clockwise to pick the target back up after you have swept over it, as soon as you have picked up the target then that's the bearing.
That's what I was trying to do. Perhaps I was doing it wrong. I'm going to check my procedures and try again.

Due to faults in the sensors in SH4, the radar will pick up a target at relative bearing of 000 (due north) from 353 to 000.
:hmmm:
000 - 353 = 7
Like I said, my bearings have been 7 degrees off. To port. Rather consistently. If had a target at 000, I'd get a bearing of 353.
(I'm thinking operator error. I'll go yell at the guy operating my radar. It seems he needs a bit more training.)

If you can see the target though, use optical bearings over radar bearings because they are much, much better!
That makes a lot of sense.

[I'm goin' down]

First some observations.

I keep forgetting that after using the Speed Dial to calculate target course and speed one is required to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial before taking a new range and bearing reading. Thus, when I go to the PPI radar screen and pursue the process of taking another range and bearing, it is a waste roughly 50 percent of the time.

I gave up on manually computing speed and course. They do not correlate to the TDC solution closely enough right now, and the variance causes confusion. Also, sometimes I forget to plot for a minute or two. There are too many steps to keep straight.

I haven't tracked a ship with map contacts on, but I will have to start doing it. The ship I have been chasing in game replays is in the middle of a rain storm, so I do not know if I could see the map contacts anyway.

Because of the time lag between determining range and bearing and plotting that data, I take an approximate distance my boat has travelled and mark the area behind my boat with an "X". At ten kts., I assume my boat has traveled 400 yds. (I used the nomograph on the Nav Map to make an "educated" guess. I mark the spot with the "X" and plot from that point per the tutorial by John Channing.

Here are my recent readings. Note, I could not see the target because of a rain storm.

Bearing Range TDC solution
343 degrees | 7240 yds. | ---
294 degrees | 8430 yds. | 14 kts @ 163 degrees
18 degrees | 9856 yds. | 15 kts @ 151
12 degrees | 9570 yds. | 14 kts @ 154
15 degrees | 9780 yds. | 11 kts @ 186

[I'm goin' down]

Can your mod be mdified so that our overworked captains are not required to the Range Dial before taking range and bearing readings intended for transmission to TDC? For example, if a captain like IGD, one of our better officers on the line, takes readings, why can't they be stored until he opens the Range Dial on the stadimeter. That way, if the stadimeter has been set to its default position, i.e. the Aob Dial, IGD could open the Range Dial, send the readings to the TDC and not lose the readings he had taken before he realized his second in command had tinkered with the stadimeter and returned it to its default position.

James Forrestal
Secretary of the Navy
7 July 1944

[I'm goin' down]

I tracked a merchant with map contacts on using the mod. I think most plots followed it course pretty closely. However, speed was another matter.

Here are the major problems, which I consider practical ones. They may be its undoing insofar as I am concerned, but I am keeping an open mind.

1. The Stopwatch-Every time you change screens, which is often, it has to be brought up if you want to see it. It is a pain in the ass if you want to manually calculate speed when you have taken multiple readings. If the default for the Stopwatch were set so it is on the screen by default unless you clicked to hide it, there would be far fewer procedural steps. (The only reasonable alternative I could come up with is to purchase a stop watch, which I will not do.) As it is now, there are already a ton of steps. Frankly, the way it is set up, if you write down the range and bearing for ten plots, you would have to bring up the stopwatch to the screen and stop it ten times to check the time for each plot beginning with the second one, and restart it another nine times to measuring the time for the next plot. That is a total of 19, count em - 19, procedural steps. If you you use the TDC to compute speed, and do it every other range reading, bringing up the Speed dial is an additional 5 steps.(I am absorbing the arduous task of plotting on the Nav Map as and in addition to the math involved to determine speed, which, while extremely time consuming, is central to working with map contacts off). Also, I used ten range and bearing readings because I gave up calculating speed manually. Even if the average number of plots is five, not ten, and the solution using the speed dial is also used, that is 9 additional steps. I decided to have the TDC perform that task in my situation. I had intended to verify the plotted course by comparing it to the TDC course solution, but quit when the TDC speed readings indicated 64 kts. and 84 kts. on two of the plots for the merchant I was chasing. Then, after my last measurement of range to target (4545 yds.), the merchant must have seen me, as it appeared to change course. At that point I had had enough.

2. I keep forgetting to switch from the Speed dial to the Range dial on the stadimeter after I tap the watch on the stadimeter. Thus, when I am ready to go to the PPI scope to begin the process of getting the next bearing and range, the process breaks down as I cannot send the readings to the TDC because the stadimeter has been opened to the Speed dial. So, I have to switch to the Range Dial and begin again. This is a major pain, and if it can be eliminated, it should be.

3. Finally, between the time you take each range and bearing, and send it to the TDC, the target is moving. How far it moves depends on whether you dawdle between taking the bearing and range and send it to the TDC. To minimize ship movement so the plot will be precise, I take a range and bearing reading, pause the game, put a mark a couple of hundred yards behind the boat, resume the game, and send the range and bearing to the TDC. Sadly, I am making an educated guess at the distance the boat has travelled in the interim, as it could be going more than a couple a couple of hundred yards, or less, depending on how fast my boat is going. Also, if wait to mark the Nav Map until after returning to the periscope screen and swiveling the periscope or TBT to the correct bearing, the target travels further still. So, where do you put the mark on the Nav Map to measure range? And when do you do it?

The mod is a technical masterpiece. How practical it is may be another matter entirely. It may be that a written procedural check list is required. If it turns out that becomes a procedural hell, I for one, will leave it to others to master.

[John Channing]

For 1) and 3): Once you start the watch it keeps running regardless of what screen you are in. Just hit the "X" key to make it appear. But I think you might be over using the watch for some reason.

To get a speed estimate just get a range/bearing at the radar station and head quickly to the plot. Put an "X" when your boat is. Then, on a piece of paper, write down the range an bearing. Afer 3:00 mins get another range and bearing and put an "X on the map where your sub is and write down the range and bearing. Then you can take your time to plot the two measurements on the map, measure the distance between the two results, subtract the last digit and voila... speed estimate.

For 2) It's a game limitation. You just have to get diciplined about switching back to the Range setting every time you leave the Periscope/TBT.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

IGD, I can't tell anything for certain from your plot data as you were obviously manouvering at the time, so I can't see definitely what was wrong. From the last three plots looks like your bearing might have been off.

Don't stop and start the stopwatch, keep it running as it's much more accurate that way. Assuming the target is on a straight course, after 30 minutes you can measure the distance travelled from the start plot and divide that by 100, which will give you a much more accurate speed.

Also, you're probably trying to do too much at once. You don't have to do everything at each step. You don't have to get a course and speed estimate each time (note that this is independant of starting and stopping the stopwatch and gets its time from the when you actually sent the data, nothing else). If you aren't getting an estimate every time, then you don't have to worry about sending it to the TDC. So, you just have to plot it.

As JCC says, take your range measurement and bearing then put an x on the back of the sub, if that's how you want to plot. From that point on, you don't have to plot it quickly and you can even pause the game. It also makes it much easier to plot if you stop completely, as you don't have to move all the tool around for each plot, but you may miss fast targets if you do that.

[I'm goin' down]

If I plot an "x" and continue playing, when I return to draw the range and bearing with the protractor tool, my boat has sailed off into the future. According to Mr. Channing's delightful tutorial, you draw two angles with the protractor. The first is from the "x" through the boat at 0 degrees. The second is from the "x" through the bearing reading. You are instructing me to draw the first angle (0 degrees) but the boat is not there to plot it correctly. What is the solution to this problem?

Divide by 100? Using the 3 minute rule, you would divide the distance travelled by 30 minuties to get kts. per minute. If the target travels 10,000 yds. in 30 minutes, its speed is 333.33 kts per minute. Under the three minute rule the speed is 10 kts. per minute. Why are you dividing by 100?

[razark]

Divide by 100? Using the 3 minute rule, you would divide the distance travelled by 30 minuties to get kts. per minute. If the target travels 10,000 yds. in 30 minutes, its speed is 333.33 kts per minute. Under the three minute rule the speed is 10 kts. per minute. Why are you dividing by 100?

10,000 yards in 30 minutes is 9.87 knots. 10,000 divided by 100 equals 100. It should be "divide by 1,000".
10,000/1,000 = 10 (knots)

[Nisgeis]

Ah, yes, you spotted my deliberate mistake - you know, just to test you were all awake. Well done for spotting it! Ahem!

[I'm goin' down]

Ah, yes, you spotted my deliberate mistake - you know, just to test you were all awake. Well done for spotting it! Ahem!

lmao. (We knew you had a weakness, as it obvious from the mod. I am surprised you have sunk anything, and you might want to rely on the TDC or razark for speed calcs.!)

high 5 to razark. (Nisgeis thinks no one reads his posts.)

As for a reading goes, how about anwering the question posed above, which is,
" If I plot an "x" and continue playing, when I return to draw the range and bearing with the protractor tool, my boat has sailed off into the future. According to Mr. Channing's delightful tutorial, you draw two angles with the protractor. The first is from the "x" through the boat at 0 degrees. The second is from the "x" through the bearing reading. You are instructing me to draw the first angle (0 degrees) but the boat is not there to plot it correctly. What is the solution to this problem?"

[I'm goin' down]

10,000 yards in 30 minutes is 9.87 knots. 10,000 divided by 100 equals 100. It should be "divide by 1,000".
10,000/1,000 = 10 (knots)

I do not want to go off thread for too long, but: 10,000 yds travelled in 30 minutes means you are traveling at the brisk pace of 16.66666 yds. per second (10,000 [yds] \ 600 [10 (minutes) x 60 (seconds per minute)]). If the target travels for one minute (i.e. 60 seconds), it is galavanting along at the rate of 999.96 yds. per minute (16.66666 [yds. per second] x 60 [seconds].):woot:

[razark]

As for a reading goes, how about anwering the question posed above, which is,
" If I plot an "x" and continue playing, when I return to draw the range and bearing with the protractor tool, my boat has sailed off into the future. According to Mr. Channing's delightful tutorial, you draw two angles with the protractor. The first is from the "x" through the boat at 0 degrees. The second is from the "x" through the bearing reading. You are instructing me to draw the first angle (0 degrees) but the boat is not there to plot it correctly. What is the solution to this problem?"

If your boat is traveling in a straight line, use the protractor to draw from your boat, to the "X", and then to whatever the bearing you measured was. Since the boat was at the "X", and is now somewhere else, the line from the "X" to your boat would be the heading it took to get there, so that leg of the angle lies along your 0 bearing.. This wouldn't hold true if you were turning, but turning during a radar reading would make it hard to get good data.

[razark]

I do not want to go off thread for too long, but: 10,000 yds travelled in 30 minutes means you are traveling at the brisk pace of 16.66666 yds. per second (10,000 [yds] \ 600 [10 (minutes) x 60 (seconds per minute)]). If the target travels for one minute (i.e. 60 seconds), it is galavanting along at the rate of 999.96 yds. per minute (16.66666 [yds. per second] x 60 [seconds].):woot:
10,000/(1800 [30 minutes * 60 seconds per minute]) = 5.5555... yards per second = 9.87 knots

But skip the yards per second stuff, and use a lot less math. Keep it easy to figure in the head. Go straight with the three minute rule. That's why it's there in the first place.

Three minute rule: In three minutes, distance traveled in yards = speed in knots * 100.

So, In 30 (three * ten) minutes, distance traveled in yards = speed in knots * 1,000 (100 * 10).

[I'm goin' down]

For 1) and 3): Once you start the watch it keeps running regardless of what screen you are in. Just hit the "X" key to make it appear. But I think you might be over using the watch for some reason.

To get a speed estimate just get a range/bearing at the radar station and head quickly to the plot. Put an "X" when your boat is. Then, on a piece of paper, write down the range an bearing. Afer 3:00 mins get another range and bearing and put an "X on the map where your sub is and write down the range and bearing. Then you can take your time to plot the two measurements on the map, measure the distance between the two results, subtract the last digit and voila... speed estimate.

For 2) It's a game limitation. You just have to get diciplined about switching back to the Range setting every time you leave the Periscope/TBT.

JCC (bold added by IGD)

razar, channing and nisgeis-

My point about plot, was that the above post only mentions the "x". If you have to include the protractor angles, then time is awasting. You might as well pause the pause to make the entries. Also, the sub is on the move, and at flank can cover a lot of ground in 30 seconds. (Check the distance for one minutes at 20 kts.). That can affect the plotting of range.

razark, I was joking about the speed calcs. I use the 3 minute rule unless I forget to look at the stopwatch, in which case I convert to seconds.

razark, I did not know changing headings might affect the radar range and bearing readings adversely. If it is true, it is a good think to know. You might as well take the first reading when you are pointed at the target, otherwise you may have reading that are accurate but you could be getting further away from it.

[John Channing]

Unless the contact is moving away from you why in the world would you be at a flank bell? If the contact is closing you at all you will want all the time you can get to get your solution up, running and refined.

JCC

[I'm goin' down]

good point. the one I am now after was at 180 degrees and heading away, so I am chasing it..

[razark]

My point about plot, was that the above post only mentions the "x". If you have to include the protractor angles, then time is awasting. You might as well pause the pause to make the entries. Also, the sub is on the move, and at flank can cover a lot of ground in 30 seconds. (Check the distance for one minutes at 20 kts.). That can affect the plotting of range.
As long as you're going in a straight line, it doesn't matter how far you've gone. As long as the "X" is pretty close to where you were when you made the reading, the angle should work. Jot down your bearing, range, and time on a piece of paper, and mark your "X" on the map. You can make several fixes on the target, each with an "X" to mark your position. When you have time, you can go back, draw in the angles and ranges, and figure out speed and course, without having to worry about getting back to the radar for your next observation right away.

razark, I was joking about the speed calcs. I use the 3 minute rule unless I forget to look at the stopwatch, in which case I convert to seconds.
Hey, as long as you get the calculations right, you can use whatever units you like. Google says (10,000 yards) / (30 minutes) = 30,545.4545 furlongs per fortnight. :D

razark, I did not know changing headings might affect the radar range and bearing readings adversely. If it is true, it is a good think to know. You might as well take the first reading when you are pointed at the target, otherwise you may have reading that are accurate but you could be getting further away from it.
Well, if you are trying to get a correct bearing on the target, and you're turning, holding the radar on it would be a bit tougher. The bearing you are trying to read would be constantly changing, and holding the beam to get the range would be a challenge.

[razark]

Like I said, my bearings have been 7 degrees off. To port. Rather consistently. If had a target at 000, I'd get a bearing of 353.
Trying again today. What I'm seeing against stationary targets is that I sweep the beam across the target. Once it's past the target (no blip on the A-scope), I crank it back counter-clockwise, until it shows up again. I then use the mouse scroll wheel to advance the beam clockwise two clicks. My bearings have been dead on. I don't know if this specific measurement is affected by range, but it was consistent with three separate targets.

Back to the radar training grounds.

[I'm goin' down]

143 kts for a merdchant. Not bad IGD!!

You had a better point than I though. If the target is moving away, get ahead of it. Then you can reduce speed, per Channings post and plot the "x" close the boat. I needed some good advice. That was good!

[I'm goin' down]

I am going to wait for the tutorial before I continue using the mod. I have put in enough time to determine it will be difficult to use. If you have a contact at long range, it is difficult to plot the correct bearing because the screen is not large enough to accommodate detail over long distance, say 25,000 yds. The angle created by the protractor tool is too small to see and this fact and the length of the range line, make it difficult plot the bearing and range of the target, among all of the other issues I have raised. Now, If I were playing on my big screen TV....

[John Channing]

The size of the screen is alway going to be a problem. I can never seem to get just the right zoom level to get it perfect.

But remember, at ranges of 20 Kyds or greater you don't have to be spot on the money accurate. Initially all you need to do is establish his approximate track. Once you have that down you can begin to close his position and take your time refining your plot. Once all of that adds up you will enter the solution.

It's frustrating at first because you are actually doing the work of 5-7 people (the radar operator, the approach officer, the TDC operator, the plot team and the Captain) but once you get it down it is most rewarding.

JCC

ps. Almost done. Just have to check a couple of details with Nisgeis and fix a couple of miistakes. It's a long one, so thanks for you patience.

[irish1958]

Hey, as long as you get the calculations right, you can use whatever units you like. Google says (10,000 yards) / (30 minutes) = 30,545.4545 furlongs per fortnight. :D

GREAT; this is the missing link for manual targeting:woot::woot:

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Nisgeis]

GREAT; this is the missing link for manual targeting:woot::woot:

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

Don't forget the other essential bits of info:

Range: 3.868734e-12 light years
Course: π/4 radians

[razark]

Don't forget the other essential bits of info:

Range: 3.868734e-12 light years
Course: π/4 radians
When the trig teacher said I'd be using this stuff later in life, this isn't what I expected!

[sergei]

Some Feedback:

Loaded up a single mission (TMO+RSRD) that had me patrolling just south of the Bungo Suido in late '42.

Target 1:
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4163/radar1.jpg

My initial 5 marks showed him going vaguely SSE, but I wasn't sure if maybe he'd made a turn at some point or was zig-zagging.
I put it down to inaccurate plotting on my part.
After I had marked points 6-9 I had a very good idea of his course. Obviously points 2 and 4 were aberrations. Possibly due to me not holding the beam on the target accurately.
I have worked out that at 30,000 yards a variance of 3 degrees gives you a possible error of 1700 yards!
So, obviously at long range you are just trying to get a sense of the targets general direction of travel.
As the range drops it becomes easier to get accurate plots and possible bearing errors have much less of an effect.
As the range dropped you can see my marks becoming a lot more consistent.
You can see the second plot I started when the target was close enough for me to get accurate stadimeter readings. It's pretty damn close to my radar plot.
And I sank the bugger right in the middle of my two plots.
Very satisfying. :yep:

Target 2:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8825/radar2d.jpg

I can see a pattern developing here :DL
Again marks 1 to 5 are not consistent enough to give the targets true course yet, but they are good enough for me to decide which direction I need to head for the intercept.
As the range dropped I decided that marks 8-10 were probably close enough, so that's what I predicted his course as with the ruler.
As he got into visual range I would take occasional stadimeter readings just to check that he was still on the course I had predicted. I measured these, but as they showed him still on track I did not bother marking them.
In this attack I noted the time of my initial contact was 3.55am.
I made a visual mark exactly one hour later at 4.55am (not shown, I accidentally deleted it whilst deleting all my ruler marks and range circles :oops:).
The distance between that mark and my first was 10.2 miles (IIRC) so I used 10 knots as his speed.
Worked like a charm.
You can see where I got him, very close to my predicted track.

I am very much loving this mod :rock:

Once I was close enough to get a stad reading I activated the PK and would watch the attack develop on the TDC (occasionally taking another range reading to keep it updated). It gave me a real good feeling for what was going on. Looking forward to JC's tutorial so I know what most of the dials are for :DL

A thought: whilst switching off the radar between readings may make it easier to use because it remembers your last range and bearing, doesn't that also switch off your air search radar? Or is it always on regardless of the state of your surface search radar?

A question: my Gato had listed in the equipment screen an early SJ radar with a range of 20,000 yards. However, I was getting contact out to about 40,000. Is that to do with this mod, or have I FUBARED my game again?

[I'm goin' down]

very nice demonstration w/screenshot. where was your boat during all of this. Was the target closing, etc.?

[sergei]

where was your boat during all of this. Was the target closing, etc.?

Target 1 was heading pretty much straight for me, so I ended up going straight up his track, then moving about 1500 yards off his track just as he came into visual range (spotted by my crew at about 8,000 yards IIRC. It was a clear night)
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2286/radar1u.jpg

For target 2 I was in a much less favourable position.
A bit further south than you can see on this map
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8825/radar2d.jpg

But I could tell from my initial marks that he was heading vaguely East, or maybe ENE, so I knew I had to head north for my intercept. I stood on the gas for part of the attack, to make sure I got there in plenty of time.

[I'm goin' down]

I attacked an Akita Maru with map contacts on, but I plotted the readings. I have given up on manual speed calcs. I used the TDC for that. However the TDC course determinations were inaccurate. To make a long story short, the target course I plotted with your mod was solid. I lined up for a broadside, the target was doing 10 knots, and I set the firing point for 350 degrees. But, I must be getting senile, as I fired when the target crossed the 340 degree bearing and all the shots missed.

However, I did learn some tricks. First, it is easier to plot if the target is heading your way. Second, since the sub is moving, it is better to slow down to 1/3 or 2/3 standard when you take readings. When you plot the readings, the angle of the protractor will be more accurate than if the sub were proceeding at standard speed or faster. Third, as the target gets closer, you can sometimes get a good range reading off the PPI scope even with the dial on underneath the radar screen turned all the way to the left.

[Nisgeis]

Some Feedback:

Hurrah!

Loaded up a single mission (TMO+RSRD) that had me patrolling just south of the Bungo Suido in late '42.

Target 1:
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4163/radar1.jpg

My initial 5 marks showed him going vaguely SSE, but I wasn't sure if maybe he'd made a turn at some point or was zig-zagging.

That plot looks like a definate zig to me. You were lucky, as the zig legs aren't massive and I think if you'd left it much longer the target may have zigged away after you fired. I wonder what the average zig length in RSRD is. There are all sorts of rules about when to fire e.g. if the target hasn't sizgged in the last 15 minutes, wait until it does zig and then fire and all sorts of stuff like that.

Once I was close enough to get a stad reading I activated the PK and would watch the attack develop on the TDC (occasionally taking another range reading to keep it updated).

It's very important to remember that if you update the range and bearing then, due to a bug in the TDC which does not update the AoB as if the target had moved along the track, you must update the course to what you measured it as, or the TDC will be tracking a different problem.

A thought: whilst switching off the radar between readings may make it easier to use because it remembers your last range and bearing, doesn't that also switch off your air search radar? Or is it always on regardless of the state of your surface search radar?

A question: my Gato had listed in the equipment screen an early SJ radar with a range of 20,000 yards. However, I was getting contact out to about 40,000. Is that to do with this mod, or have I FUBARED my game again?

I don't think you can turn off the air search radar, only the SJ.

I think I used the stock setting for ranges, but I may have been drunk when I did it, or sober, or both! Any of those could have caused me to screw something up.

I attacked an Akita Maru with map contacts on, but I plotted the readings. I have given up on manual speed calcs. I used the TDC for that. However the TDC course determinations were inaccurate.

You can't blame the TDC for vastly wrong course and speed, as it's only going off what you tell it. I still can't work out how you managed to get a target going over a 100 knots as that would mean a massive reading or plotting error - are you sure you aren't manouvering between reading and plotting.

[Roger Dodger]

I just tried to install 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit. From what I had been reading on the other thread about this mod, it sounds really kool. Note that I am using only TMO and RSRDC in my MOD list. Also, the MOD hasn't been noted as being compatable, but Ducimus said that it shouldn't cause any problems (I think I read that right).

I installed the MOD (in port), then tried it out using the 'Single War Patrol' #1 (Pogey). The TDC and RADAR came right up, and seem to be working together OK. Then I tried using the Radio/Convoy pull-down map, and all that would show was the extreme lower left corner of the map - no radio at all, just the corner of the map. TMO does change the UserRadio.dds file (verified by loading Convoy Map for TMO + RSRDC ), but the 3D TDC MOD has nothing to do with that particular file.

I disabled the 3D TDC mod, and loaded up again. The Radio/Convoy Map work just fine (either the TMO or the RSRDC model). I tried several times more, always with the same result.

Has anyone else noticed this behaviour, or am I just unique?

[I'm goin' down]

I replayed my attack on the Akita Maru, and sunk the son of a bitch. (Finally.) I tracked with your mod and had three consitent speed readings of 10 kts. The course I drew was parallel to the target's siloutette which was about 350 yds. parallel from the course line I drew all the way down the line. I remembered to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial after sending speed to the TDC. This old dog can learn a new trick every now and then!

Here are my questions;
1. My course was off by a few degrees. How can In overcome that problem?
2. Why do you turn the TDC on after the last speed reading? I do not understand? I turned it on anyway.
3. I set up for a constant bearing attack. I set the scope at 350 degrees and fired when the target, whose speed was 10 kts. crossed that bearing. One torpedo caused the Akita Maru to blow up and split in half, so I do not know if the others hit. Two of the torpedoes were 36 kts. torpedoes. The rest were 46 kts. How can you do a constant bearng attack with torpedoes of different speeds? I fired the four fast torpedoes first and the two slower torpedoes last? Since the constant bearing attack is based upon the fast torpedo speeds (or is it?), there is a problem when you fire slower running torpedoes I presume.

Next up, attack with map contact off using the mod.

[I'm goin' down]

Another question. Now that I am getting the hang of taking readiings and plottting them using the mod, what else can I use it for? Will there be a tutorial for those additional uses at some point?

[sergei]

Then I tried using the Radio/Convoy pull-down map, and all that would show was the extreme lower left corner of the map - no radio at all, just the corner of the map.

Answered in the map thread.
Dude - I've been chasing you all over the forums! :03:

[Nisgeis]

I replayed my attack on the Akita Maru, and sunk the son of a bitch. (Finally.) I tracked with your mod and had three consitent speed readings of 10 kts. The course I drew was parallel to the target's siloutette which was about 350 yds. parallel from the course line I drew all the way down the line. I remembered to reset the stadimeter to the Range Dial after sending speed to the TDC. This old dog can learn a new trick every now and then!

Scratch one Maru! :yeah: Well done!

Here are my questions;
1. My course was off by a few degrees. How can In overcome that problem?

How many is a few? Literally three degrees won't hurt at all, if it's 30 degrees it will cause problems. Use the TDC's PK to keep a running score of where your data puts the ship and then compare that to the actual measured position of the ship. It's simple to get when you work it out, as there's only one reason for the discrepancies.

I'll see if I can put something together, as it's relatively easy to get if you see it graphically.


2. Why do you turn the TDC on after the last speed reading? I do not understand? I turned it on anyway.

You turn on the PK to start the solution running. The TDC will then update the position of the target automatically based on the problem you entered and will generate a firing solution based on the changing situation. This constantly changes the gyro angle orders being fed to the torpedoes, so they will always go to the right course for the target. If your initial problem was accurate, then the solution will be accurate. If not, you can check the TDC's position against the actual position and adjust your solution accordingly.

3. I set up for a constant bearing attack. I set the scope at 350 degrees and fired when the target, whose speed was 10 kts. crossed that bearing. One torpedo caused the Akita Maru to blow up and split in half, so I do not know if the others hit. Two of the torpedoes were 36 kts. torpedoes. The rest were 46 kts. How can you do a constant bearng attack with torpedoes of different speeds? I fired the four fast torpedoes first and the two slower torpedoes last? Since the constant bearing attack is based upon the fast torpedo speeds (or is it?), their is a problem when you fire slower running torpedoes I presume.

When you say you did a constant bearing attack, what do you mean? Do you mean you drew out the lead angle and waited until then to fir, or do you mean that you did some crazy stuff with sending a made up lead angle to the TDC by pointing the scope to a bearing that the target wasn't at?

If you just waited for your drawn bearing the the TDC was operatng the torpedoes and they wouldn't have had zero gyro angles set, unless you fired at the point when the TDC progressed them to zero. If you used a made up bearing, then you shouldn't have hit.

The TDC will also take into account the speed of the torpedoes and will adjust the gyro angles so they all hit the target in the TDC, as long as the problem is accurate.

You don't need 'simple' targetting solutions if you are using the TDC with the PK. You don't have to do anything at all, as the TDC is doing all the work. Remember that the simple tagetting procedures were created for those who didn't want to use automatic targetting, but didn't ike the idea of full on manual targetting with the TDC and PK, which you are now well beyond.

Next up, attack with map contact off using the mod.

Good luck!

Another question. Now that I am getting the hang of taking readiings and plottting them using the mod, what else can I use it for? Will there be a tutorial for those additional uses at some point?

What else is there to do, other than sink ships? You can use it to calibrate the stadimeter, as discussed in the first post. Hmmm, I wonder if Lot's wife shows up on radar.

[I'm goin' down]

[QUOTE=Nisgeis;1455416]

How many is a few? Literally three degrees won't hurt at all, if it's 30 degrees it will cause problems. Use the TDC's PK to keep a running score of where your data puts the ship and then compare that to the actual measured position of the ship. It's simple to get when you work it out, as there's only one reason for the discrepancies.

I'll see if I can put something together, as it's relatively easy to get if you see it graphically.

You turn on the PK to start the solution running. The TDC will then update the position of the target automatically based on the problem you entered and will generate a firing solution based on the changing situation. This constantly changes the gyro angle orders being fed to the torpedoes, so they will always go to the right course for the target. If your initial problem was accurate, then the solution will be accurate. If not, you can check the TDC's position against the actual position and adjust your solution accordingly.

When you say you did a constant bearing attack, what do you mean? Do you mean you drew out the lead angle and waited until then to fir, or do you mean that you did some crazy stuff with sending a made up lead angle to the TDC by pointing the scope to a bearing that the target wasn't at?

If you just waited for your drawn bearing the the TDC was operatng the torpedoes and they wouldn't have had zero gyro angles set, unless you fired at the point when the TDC progressed them to zero. If you used a made up bearing, then you shouldn't have hit.

The TDC will also take into account the speed of the torpedoes and will adjust the gyro angles so they all hit the target in the TDC, as long as the problem is accurate.

You don't need 'simple' targetting solutions if you are using the TDC with the PK. You don't have to do anything at all, as the TDC is doing all the work. Remember that the simple tagetting procedures were created for those who didn't want to use automatic targetting, but didn't ike the idea of full on manual targetting with the TDC and PK, which you are now well beyond. QUOTE]

How do I multiquote messages?

Any graphs, etc. will be helpful.

I hit the little watch after every two bearing and range readings. Let's say I take 6 readings, so i hit the watch three times. When do I activate the PK? Why?

So, you are saying the I do not need the constant bearing attack, Dick O;Kane, Cromwell, Easy Aob, Solution Solver, or pure luck now that I am using your mod. (RR will soon retire to the dust bin of history, where he will join Captain MattJ). Let the TDC do the work, you say. Okay, but what is it doing? Tracking the target? Setting the gyro angle? Creating a lead angle? Setting the Aob? Why do I need to send Aob, or do I? I am familiar with Easy Aob, but for that mod, one still has to set Aob as i recall. Then, after determining range, the PK is activated. What you say is happening is that the TDC has formulated a solution for the course and speed of the target now that it has been activated. How do I know when to fire torpedoes? What is the best bearing and range? Since I did not have the answer to these questions, I reverted to the constant bearing attack, by double clicking the range button with the periscope at 350 degrees, set the Aob at 80 (90 degrees - 10 degrees) and fired when the target crossed the firing point of 350 degrees (360 degrees - 10 degrees). What should I have done instead? Remember, you invented this device, I didn't, but I am trying to understand it.

How can you correct the TDC solution? If the target's course calculated by the TDC is wrong, how will you know and how can you correct it? If you plot its course and the course and speed are different that those set by the TDC, how do you know which are the correct course and speed?

[Nisgeis]

How do I multiquote messages?

Copy the Quote blocks. Have [ QUOTE=I'm goin' down;1455422 ] whatever you want to quote [ /QUOTE ] except without the spaces in the Quote blocks.

Any graphs, etc. will be helpful.

I hit the little watch after every two bearing and range readings. Let's say I take 6 readings, so i hit the watch three times. When do I activate the PK?

As soon as you have the information for a target problem, e.g. course, speed and range for the TDC to work on.
Why?

It's the equivalent of 'extending a line along your plot to predict the future course of the target' and then plotting against that to pick up corrections. Assuming that you are closing your target, after a while, if your measured range is closer than your generated range, then the target is either on a course more towards you or it's got a higher speed than you thought or both. Unfortunately due to a bug in the in game TDC it's not as useful as a real TDC, which could be used to detect zigs away and toward.

So, you are saying the I do not need the constant bearing attack, Dick O;Kane, Cromwell, Easy Aob, Solution Solver, or pure luck now that I am using your mod. (RR will soon retire to the dust bin of history, where he will join Captain MattJ). Let the TDC do the work, you say.

If you can track, plot, get a course and speed and understand what's going on, then yes.

Okay, but what is it doing? Tracking the target? Setting the gyro angle? Creating a lead angle? Setting the Aob?

Yes, yes, no because there is no lead angle when using gyro setting and yes.

The TDC will however tell you what the gyro angle is and if you want, you can wait until the gyro angle is close to zero.

Why do I need to send Aob, or do I? I am familiar with Easy Aob, but for that mod, one still has to set Aob as i recall.

There's too much emphasis on the AoB as that conjures up images of guestimating through the periscope. It's important to realise that AoB is only an expression of the traget's course relative to your own course and the target's relative bearing. When you enter the AoB, you are entering the course. If you change the target's course, the AoB also changes as they are closely related.

Then, after determining range, the PK is activated. What you say is happening is that the TDC has formulated a solution for the course and speed of the target now that it has been activated.

The TDC doesn't calculate a course and speed. The stopwatch icon is just a link to get your crew to do it for you. So, strictly speaking, the TDC will only generate a position for a ship based on information that you give it. Although in game the button to calculate a course and speed are on the TDC controls, it's the crew doing it.

How do I know when to fire torpedoes? What is the best bearing and range?

Read the tactical situation on the TDC and use that as your guide. Fire torpedoes at the best position you can.

Since I did not have the answer to these questions, I reverted to the constant bearing attack, by double clicking the range button with the periscope at 350 degrees, set the Aob at 80 (90 degrees - 10 degrees) and fired when the target crossed the firing point of 350 degrees (360 degrees - 10 degrees).

It's a miracle you hit anything at all if you had the PK running whilst you did that. Why tell the TDC to point torpdoes at a target that isn't there? It doesn't make sense does it? Surely you should be updating the TDC with information that is accurate? If you point the scope to a bearing where the ship is not and then tell the TDC that the target is there, then you're deliberately entering a wrong problem and you'll get a wrong solution. I don't see the point in going to all that trouble to plot the target and develop an accurate picture of what the ship is doing if you're going to use an attack method which relies on putting in incorrect target data.

By the way, that's not a constant bearing attack either, it's more of an O'Kane attack, except with the PK on (which doesn't work well).

What should I have done instead? Remember, you invented this device, I didn't, but I am trying to understand it.

Put the right information in! Right problem = right solution. This mod doesn't change the attack methods, it just makes them more accurate and easier to use. The manual use of the TDC has not changed.

How can you correct the TDC solution? If the target's course calculated by the TDC is wrong, how will you know and how can you correct it? If you plot its course and the course and speed are different that those set by the TDC, how do you know which are the correct course and speed?

By 'target's course calculated by the TDC' I'm assuming you mean the stopwatch button, which is the same as asking your XO for a target ID. If the course and speed entered into the TDC is wrong then it will show up over time. The more incorrect the problem in the TDC the faster the discrepancise will become obvious.

Think of it this way:

You are standing with a radar set and a car to the North is coming towards you. You first notice it when it's 2 miles away and you estimate that the speed of the car is 60 MPH. After a minute you take another measurement and find that the car is 1.5 miles away, but it's still directly to the North. So, it's obvious that the car isn't going at 60 MPH. If it were, it would be a mile away, so you can adjust your speed accordingly. It's also obvious that the car is travelling due South.

Now imagine that the car isn't travelling directly towards you, but is travelling SW instead. After a minute it won't be directly north of you anymore, so your initial estimate of south was wrong. As it's moved to your NW you know that he is travelling more westwards.

The upcoming TDC tutorial by JCC will help to clear up some things. It's coming soon (TM). :DL

[Roger Dodger]

Answered in the map thread.
Dude - I've been chasing you all over the forums! :03:


Sorry about that. I just posted the same message on all three affected threads hoping one of the 'Wise Ones' could give me an answer. I'll check out your answer in 'Maps'.

Thanx for the response.

[Nisgeis]

To avoid hijacking the other thread, the link to the tutorial is here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172535

Courtesy of John Channing.

[Roger Dodger]

To avoid hijacking the other thread, the link to the tutorial is here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172535

Courtesy of John Channing.

My bad - posted in wrong thread. Thanks for the link. Also, downloaded and installed the newest version. Now to get it to work for me.

Beautiful reproduction of TDC and easy way to get to it. Your efforts are appreciated.

[I'm goin' down]

Your statement re reading the tactical solution on the TDC and use that as my guide means to me that I look at the ships dials on left side of the screen, and when the profile of the target ship indicates it is at a good angle to fire at, I let her rip. A broadside profile on the TDc is good and it can be verified via the periscope.

I tried a multiquote and it did not work. I must not understand it.

I thought you reply post was great. Many of my questions have been answered. I could even write a tutorial some day if I knew how to make my screen shots bigger.

[Nisgeis]

Well, a broadside would give you high gyro angles, so are not as reliable as a low gyro angle shot, but as long as your solution is accurate you should hit. Give it a shot and let us know how you get on.

[Patchman123]

What I mean by actually work is that I want the angle on the bow to continually update itself. I saw a documentary that said that the TDC would update the angle on the bow. How come I have to reset it every time I try to shoot a torpedo, when it should update itself.

Have you ever considered having an update to the angle on the bow automatically instead of manually, to fix the AOB problem?

That would be nice.

[I'm goin' down]

Maybe I am more lost than I thought. Once I send range and bearing to the TDC do I have to send Aob? I understand that I have to turn on the PK. However, the The Aob is pointing a 0 degrees. What do I do with that? And if I send Aob to the TDC, do I do it when the PK is activated?

[Nisgeis]

What I mean by actually work is that I want the angle on the bow to continually update itself. I saw a documentary that said that the TDC would update the angle on the bow. How come I have to reset it every time I try to shoot a torpedo, when it should update itself.

The TDC does update the AoB continuously. You don't have to reset the AoB every time you shoot. The only thing you do have to do is make sure you check the course is correct when you update the bearing and range and correct if necessary. That's down to a fault in the in game TDC, which I can't do anything about as there siply aren't the controls available.

[Nisgeis]

Maybe I am more lost than I thought. Once I send range and bearing to the TDC do I have to send Aob? I understand that I have to turn on the PK. However, the The Aob is pointing a 0 degrees. What do I do with that? And if I send Aob to the TDC, do I do it when the PK is activated?

The AoB should be pointing at zero if the target is sailing directly towards you. Is the target sailing directly towards you? If not, then it's wrong. Are you checking the generated range and bearing against your observations?

Use the TDC to enter the target course, which you should already have. If in doubt, read the first page again for what the dials do, or wait for JCC's tutorial. Or, if you don't want to use the target course dial, then you know how to calculate the AoB already, so put that in instead. AoB = Target Course.

You need four things for a solution:

Where it it now: Range and Relative Bearing
Where it will be in the future: Speed and Course.

Put all four in correctly and the generated information on the TDC will match your observations. Put it in wrong and it won't so that's a big clue that your data is wrong, so then you find out what is wrong.

[I'm goin' down]

I assume the Aob, if the TDC computes it, will be shown on the ships dials on the left side pull out. I am also assuming that it will not show up on the Aob dial on the stadimeter, and I assume Aob will point to zero degrees all the time. If this is wrong, then I may not have noticed the Aob dial on the stadimeter changing, but i doubt I missed it.

[razark]

I assume the Aob, if the TDC computes it, will be shown on the ships dials on the left side pull out. I am also assuming that it will not show up on the Aob dial on the stadimeter, and I assume Aob will point to zero degrees all the time. If this is wrong, then I may not have noticed the Aob dial on the stadimeter changing, but i doubt I missed it.
The Position Keeper adjusts the AOB in the TDC. If you do not have the PK running, the AOB will remain as whatever you entered. With the PK on, as the TDC advances the target, it will adjust the AOB, keeping the target on a straight course. The TDC will not compute AOB initially, you need to enter it.

The dials on the right-hand side, range, AOB, and speed are only for data entry. They do not get updated automatically. If you use the stopwatch icon to determine course and speed, the speed dial will change to the speed calculated. You will still need to push the button to send that value to the TDC. The AOB dial will need to be adjusted to the correct value. Once you have the correct value sent to the TDC, the PK will keep the AOB up to date with the target it is tracking, but the data entry dial will not change.

[I'm goin' down]

re adjusting the Aob to the correct value, where do you get information on that. If the ship is 10 miles away, I am not going to figure it out. Does the radarman announce it? Telling me to input it is one thing, but you have not advised me on where I get the data.

[sharkbit]

I hope this doesn't rehash some of the earlier stuff, but it seems that you are a little confused on how the TDC works. I apologize if I am mistaken in that thought though.
Also, I have not used this mod yet but hope to when I get a hankering to play SH4 again, so I apolgize again if I am muddying the waters a little.

Remember that the TDC is a computer and so "Garbage in=Garbage out".
Your solution is only as good as the information you put into it.

The TDC needs only four inputs from you, which, as razark said, is input on the right side of the screen:
1. Target speed.
2. Target range.
3. Target AOB.
4. Target bearing(which, in game, is input when you send the range to the TDC as well).
Those readings on the right side of the screen don't change as time progresses. They should be where you left them when input into the TDC.

Once that information is entered and the PK is turned on, the TDC will track the target based on the movement of your sub and the target. You can see this on the left side of the screen on the TDC.
As long as the target does not change course and/or speed, the AOB and range will change as the TDC computes the relative motions of your sub and the target. The dials will physically move over time. Your sub may change course and speed, but the TDC will keep track of that.
If any of the information you input is inaccurate, then the target is not going to be where the TDC says it should be. The TDC is telling you where the target is based on the information that you input. You should be able to point your scope at the relative bearing the TDC says the target is at, raise the scope, and the target should be there. If not, something is wrong.

The key is many observations(balanced with the risk of your scope being spotted).
The more observations you make as the range closes, the more accurate the four pieces of information you input will be and the more accurate your solution at the firing point.

There are various methods to gather the needed information and it looks like this mod goes a long way in helping track a target without map contacts turned on.

It takes a lot of checking and cross checking of the information displayed on the left side of the screen to make sure the solution is correct. At least real subs had a tracking party and a TDC operator that knew his **** to input and double check the information and make sure nothing seemed to be out of kilter. We, unfortuneately, have only ourselves to do all this stuff and it can get overwhelming at times.

I hope any of this helps.

:)

[razark]

re adjusting the Aob to the correct value, where do you get information on that. If the ship is 10 miles away, I am not going to figure it out. Does the radarman announce it? Telling me to input it is one thing, but you have not advised me on where I get the data.

When you click the stopwatch icon to get the speed, the crew also reports the course. The inner dial of the AOB disply shows AOB, the outer ring shows the enemy's course. Adjust the AOB until that course matches what the crew figured.

You can also draw it out on the map, and use to protractor tool to measure it. Measure along the enemy's course line, to the enemy's location, to your location, and figure if it's port or starboard from the enemy.

[sharkbit]

re adjusting the Aob to the correct value, where do you get information on that. If the ship is 10 miles away, I am not going to figure it out. Does the radarman announce it? Telling me to input it is one thing, but you have not advised me on where I get the data.

If you know the target's course, it's a piece of cake.
Adjust the AOB input until the target dial matches the target's course.
Or you can plot it on the nav map.
I have a whiz wheel that I made for SH3 that I use quite a bit. There is one you can make that the fleet boats used that does the same thing(Called an: Is/Was).

If you don't know the target's course, you need to do more plotting.

:)

[I'm goin' down]

I have the solution solver program by gutted which makes finding the Aob very easy. And it is precise. I can use it.

[Nisgeis]

I have the solution solver program by gutted which makes finding the Aob very easy. And it is precise. I can use it.

What information are you putting into it to get the AoB?