You gotta be kidding me...

[treblesum81]

So I'm set up for a 90° convoy attack sitting at a depth of 250ft (a full 100ft below the thermal layer), silent running, at a dead stop. In the past (TMO 1.9) this tactic allowed me to slip under the destroyer screen undetected, after which time I would either pop up to periscope depth or to about 80ft for a sonar attack. This time, as soon as the DD's got nearby, they started pinging and then dropping depth charges on my head... With pinpoint accuracy no less!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that active sonar doesn't penetrate the thermal layer, so even if they were pinging, they could not get an accurate fix on your position? I could maybe understand the fact that they picked me up at all, but to be able to literally drop depth charges on my deck when their sonar shouldn't even be able to hit me seems more than a little incorrect...

EDIT: This is with TMO 2

EDIT 2: I know the passive sensors were tweaked, but would this affect the active sonar as well?

[treblesum81]

On a side note, I've tried this a few more times at different depths and ranges and found something interesting...

As long as you are within a certain range of the escorts (1000y-2000y) they will detect you instantly as soon as any part of your sub even gets near the thermal layer. I succeeded in slipping past the escort ring of the convoy at a depth of 300ft, but then the instant I got to about 200ft-225ft on the way back up the pinging started again. I tried again, waiting longer this time so that I was well behind the front escorts and far in front of the side / rear escorts and the same thing happened... as soon as I got near ~200ft, the pinging started again.

This is a behavior I don't remember getting prior to TMO 2, but I can't 100% disqualify because there are so many variable conditions. I know that TMO enhances the sensors of the AI, but the changelog for this one seems to indicate that they were reduced so all the more confusing...

PS: I didn't mention it before, but this is all happening in mid-december '41.

[Red Devil]

Asdic could not operate in bad weather or penetrate thermal layers in reality. It does, however, depend on the amount of noise you could be making, were you on silent running? Loading torps is bad for your health, its really quite a noisy process involving chains.

In bad weather, eg: Atlantic, in WW2, sub hunters like Capt Walker RN, could not use Asdic in heavy swell. (and he was a real expert).

[Bubblehead1980]

Ducimus reduced the effectiveness of thermal layers in TMO 2.0 said so in change log.

[Ducimus]

Ducimus reduced the effectiveness of thermal layers in TMO 2.0 said so in change log.

Passive only. Though i also reduced how sensitive passive is as well.

I did this because i thought the AI's hydrophones were too sensitive above the layer. Which was a side of tweaking their sensitivy up to such a rate as so you can be heard within reason below the layer. By lowering the thermal layer effect on hydrophones, it allowed me to reduce the hydrophone sensitivty so their not super sensitve above the layer, and not completely deaf when your below it.

edit:
BTW, your speed, wind speed, range to destroyer, silent running, and below layer or not all play a part.

In sum, always have silent running on when you can, and the calmer the weather, the slower you go. Rough seas you can open the throttle up a bit.

[treblesum81]

Passive only. Though i also reduced how sensitive passive is as well.

I did this because i thought the AI's hydrophones were too sensitive above the layer. Which was a side of tweaking their sensitivy up to such a rate as so you can be heard within reason below the layer. By lowering the thermal layer effect on hydrophones, it allowed me to reduce the hydrophone sensitivty so their not super sensitve above the layer, and not completely deaf when your below it.

edit:
BTW, your speed, wind speed, range to destroyer, silent running, and below layer or not all play a part.

In sum, always have silent running on when you can, and the calmer the weather, the slower you go. Rough seas you can open the throttle up a bit.

I was at a dead stop, in silent running, about 1000-2000 yards from the destroyer(s), and in light to moderate seas. Basically, I was a hole in the water ascending by air pressure only and as soon as the top of my periscope crossed the thermal layer (verified by raising the scope and ascending which caused detection at a deeper depth) I was immediately detected. It almost seems like the net result of the changes, at least under these conditions, is to create a plane in the water where you become instantly visible if any part of your sub crosses it on the way up. More concerning though is the fact that DD's seem to be able to target me with active sonar well below the thermal layer.. After detection, I went as deep as 300ft on silent running at only 1kt and they were able to consistently place depth charges on my deck or at least within 50ft of my sub. I wonder if the reduced thermal layer effect had improved the passive response to active sonar?

[Armistead]

You can still get by with murder in heavy seas. I haven't noticed any change really, but I stay at scope depth. If they do ping, I'm usually able to get my shot off and get deep enough and evade before they make their run. However, only have 3 patrols in, but overall I like the change, seem to get by with a little more at scope depth.

[treblesum81]

I hate to say it but I'm going to have to go back to 1.9.... I'm getting consistently detected and then pinged and sunk... all while well below the thermal layer. I really wish this wasn't the case, since many of the other changes to this version are very nice, but it seems that if the seas are anything other than rough, the thermal layer no longer has any effect.

[Red Devil]

Your lucky treble, I can even download 1.9, all I get is a file that adobe wants to open.

[orangehat44]

Did you read duci's read me file about the sonar and detection. I am still a new captian and TMO is teaching me the hard way on how to make the correct decisions. But Starting in the Asiatic fleet at the beginneing of the war and running into the Luzon Landing forces. I was able to aproach the convoy head on, at slient running 1 knt (50 ish RPMS I think) in dead calm seas, by taking my sargo class down to 350. I really think in TMO 2 you have to play russian roullet with the crush depth in order to survive. Granted When I tried to pop up in the middle of the convoy I was detected as it was day and dead calm, But you certanly can go under their sonar cones. I think 2.0 is great so far, I just have to learn to make the correct decisions and use the sub how its suppose to be used. I tend to be too blood thirsty as Im still new to the game and just want the fire works, but learning how to make the right choices and be patient.

@ red devil, the first file on Duci's first post is the pdf, scroll to the bottom for the 2.0 download.

[Red Devil]

orange, thanks mate but that was the link I was given. I think I do not want 2.0 after what I have heard, but will look again for 1.9 - my thanks

regarding that link page - this is the only TMO19 download there - the pdf????

[orangehat44]

sorry I thought you were talking about 2.0 Im guessing some where on duci's file front page 1.9 still exists but I dunno. Sorry cant be of more help

[TwistedFemur]

its those super top secret japanese anti sub homing torpedos:hmmm:

[treblesum81]

I understand that TMO is supposed to make things more difficult, and I really like the mod (part of the reason I would go back to 1.9 rather than something else), but I really think that the thermal layer effect got reduced too much somehow. I'm really serious when I say that no matter how deep I dive and no matter how silently I'm sitting there, the enemy DD's are able to detect me, PING me, and drop DC's on my decks. Now, again, I don't expect it to be a walk in the park... I don't even expect that they shouldn't be able to detect me at those depths, but they should not be able to accurately ping a submarine 200ft below the thermal layer and put DC's on it as if it was at periscope depth... After all, it was Ducimus himself who described in his "Uber AI Explained" post that the thermal layer will protect a sub against active (and passive) sonar.

Again, I like the mod, I just think this one feature might have gone a little awry. If I'm wrong, I can also accept that, even if it means I won't use this version.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, which file(s) control to the thermal layer characteristics so I can change them myself should I want to?

[raymond6751]

I have found that escorts have a harder time tracking you if you keep a 5-10 degree turn going on.

They may get close, but since you are constantly turning, they can't pinpoint your track.

[Ducimus]

If you REALLY think its too bloody hard, edit the thermal layer variables in data/cfg/sim.cfg. It's clearly marked what numbers to put in, and not rocket science. If you still think its too bloody hard, use the stock version of the sim.cfg.

If you want to nerf the AI down a notch or two, it really is that simple.

[treblesum81]

If you REALLY think its too bloody hard, edit the thermal layer variables in data/cfg/sim.cfg. It's clearly marked what numbers to put in, and not rocket science. If you still think its too bloody hard, use the stock version of the sim.cfg.

If you want to nerf the AI down a notch or two, it really is that simple.

Thanks for the info Ducimus, I'll have a go at testing some different numbers (ie TMO 1.9, etc). I do want to keep the TMO harder AI, I just want to temper its ability to put a laser sight on me when it should at least have some difficulty figuring my location... As an example, I had a similar situation in TMO 1.9 where the convoy escorts detected me below the thermal layer (I accidentally called for flank... yes dumb I know...). The escorts made full steam to my current sound location, but when I got my sub under control, they couldn't ping me down, instead dropping DC's where they thought I might still be. Yes, they occasionally got close, and I'm assuming that out of 100 pings, maybe 5-7 gave a return, but they were not able to ping me 3 times and then sink me at 250ft-350ft like they are able to right now...

[Armistead]

You shouldn't be getting sunk constantly behind the TL anyway. Even in 1.9 they can make deadly charges. You hear them make runs over you go flank, if you're deep enough your speed will take you forward of the charges and they will fall behind you. Stay at slow speeds and you're a dead duck.

[Ducimus]

Hardest part about adjusting the AI's sensors is knowing how hard to make it. Successful attack and evasion, is really more of a mechanical thing in the SH series. You have to be doing X, Y and Z, in just the right fashion.

Over time people figure this out. So then the AI becomes too easy, and it all becomes routine. Until that point, the AI is seems too hard. As hard as the AI seems to some, ive had a couple other people tell me it's still too easy. It's all relative to your experience and knowledge of the game i think.

[G2B]

Simple terms, if you hear splashes someone is about to poop on your parade, Go flank for a few seconds and change your course. For me, after they make a run and I don't hear pinging Ill shut the engines off after a flank burst and let momentum carry the boat a bit, seems to help in some situations. Even going emergency back has saved my bacon a few times, that really seems to throw the escorts off a bit :D The ones that I really don't like are them buggers that sit quietly and listen while there buddies rain on you, or they sit even after everyone else is gone waiting and listening :shifty: listening and waiting tic toc tic toc :stare:

But if they were not difficult things would get to routine and boring. Like eating saltine crackers everyday for a month so that a saltine without salt is a nice change.

[Red Devil]

The above advice is sound but you can also add decoy (J) and slip off to one side

[green_abobo]

(s) control to the thermal layer characteristics so I can change them myself should I want to?


this is what i was going to suggest. i know in earlier versions it was possible to "dumb down" the escorts.

in stock, i used to use decoys to get the escorts away from the merchants in the convoy,and was a relatively effective tactic as long as you can creep silently en route to your attack position, while the escorts search for whatever that is in the water making noise (aka your decoy)

i normally do not like attacking in the middle of a convoy or TF,but that's just me.

[treblesum81]

Hardest part about adjusting the AI's sensors is knowing how hard to make it. Successful attack and evasion, is really more of a mechanical thing in the SH series. You have to be doing X, Y and Z, in just the right fashion.

Over time people figure this out. So then the AI becomes too easy, and it all becomes routine. Until that point, the AI is seems too hard. As hard as the AI seems to some, ive had a couple other people tell me it's still too easy. It's all relative to your experience and knowledge of the game i think.

I understand that it is very much a personal preference / skill level thing, but I still can't get past the idea that they get accurate ping returns when they technically shouldn't be able to. So far, I've tried making small adjustments to the thermal layer variable for testing, but I can't tell if its making any difference or not... I've been using a save game of the situation in question, which means I'm not making these changes in base in order to preserve the situation for testing, but then I can't be sure anything is actually changing. So far I've made it up to 2.5 and they are still able to detect me, ping me, and quickly target me without any trouble...