How do you get started?

[NFunky]

I've played a lot of training scenarios and have gotten pretty comfortable operating without any autocrew (except active intercept). So I figured I'd start trying to play some real scenarios and immediately I discovered that mission startup is almost always the hardest part. In almost every scenario I played, I start out within sonar range of at least four contacts. I know four isn't really that many, but it means 8 contacts on the towed array which is a lot to sort out all at once. I just can't seem to organize all the initial contacts fast enough and it's extremely tedious. I think this is mostly because I don't have a 'mission start' procedure, so I end up just frantically marking contacts on all sensors and then laboring over merging, classifying and just generally getting a grip on them.

So this is yet another call for help. Are there some basic procedures I can use to make this initial phase of gameplay less cumbersome? And how should I change my approach when, for instance, I start out with my TA retracted? Would the procedures be drastically different in the Kilo? Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Molon Labe]

I guess it kind of depends on the scenario. Are you getting dropped right into a combat zone or are you getting initial contact in the form of merchant traffic? Hopefully it's the latter.

I usually do my first scan with the sphere and hull arrays, because with those I don't have to worry about a false direction, and because it helps me pay attention to closer contacts first. If I start at PD, I'll throw the ESM antenna up and mark those because that's instant classification (periscope too if something is loud, on the surface, and not radiating). The towed array comes next, and I'll intentionally seek out the contacts I already have first. This reduces the time spent on the TA scan because I already know what bearings to get them on and which is the real contact, so in essence for every S/H contact I have I eliminates work on two TA contacts. Also, it helps with tracker assignment, because the trackers that get removed to follow newer contacts will be those that already have a sphere/hull tracker. Once all TA contacts on my initial course are marked, I'll turn to clear the bow baffle and eliminate false bearings, scan, cross the layer, scan, turn again, and scan again.

I think in a situation with a moderate number of initial contacts (like 4 or so) I'll have situational awareness established in ~5 minutes.

[NFunky]

Thanks Molon, that's a good call on checking sphere/hull first. I usually did TA first without thinking, but I'm going to start using this method now. Also, it seems like your implying that I don't really need to pop-up for an ESM/peri scan if I start out at depth which is good to know.

I guess my real problem is splitting my time between scanning for and organizing sonar contacts with doing the TMA. I'm still not very fast with either and so use pause a lot, but even so it just feels so frantic getting a handle on all those initial contacts. I could handle doing the TMA for four or five contacts at once, but doing so while trying to manage the sonar picture is really difficult. When do you start doing initial TMA and which contacts should you work on first (especially important in the Kilo with its meager two trackers)? And if you start tracking four contacts right away, should you wait for a couple bearing lines before making your turn or do you want to clear the baffles as soon as possible and forget about that first leg?

Again, thanks for the help. This seems to be the one topic not covered in any of the DW guides (BlueBook, RedBook, TACMAN, etc.).

[Molon Labe]

Thanks Molon, that's a good call on checking sphere/hull first. I usually did TA first without thinking, but I'm going to start using this method now. Also, it seems like your implying that I don't really need to pop-up for an ESM/peri scan if I start out at depth which is good to know.
It depends on the mission. You may need to worry about aircraft. You may need to get mission tasking. Hell, you may even need to worry about that last 10% of HPA. But, if you're overwhelmed with initial contacts, building SA quickly is priority #1, sonar is your best sensor, and sonar sucks at PD. It can wait a few minutes.


I guess my real problem is splitting my time between scanning for and organizing sonar contacts with doing the TMA. I'm still not very fast with either and so use pause a lot, but even so it just feels so frantic getting a handle on all those initial contacts. I could handle doing the TMA for four or five contacts at once, but doing so while trying to manage the sonar picture is really difficult. When do you start doing initial TMA and which contacts should you work on first (especially important in the Kilo with its meager two trackers)? And if you start tracking four contacts right away, should you wait for a couple bearing lines before making your turn or do you want to clear the baffles as soon as possible and forget about that first leg?


If I'm dropped into a multiple-contact situation, I'm not immediately concerned with TMA. I want to know who is out there first, and once I know that I can prioritize who gets my time on TMA. Priority goes to contacts that are a threat, followed by contact of mission interest (protect/attack), then to neutrals/friendlies that may enter the line of fire, and last to neutral traffic not likely to be a factor.

I usually make the first turn as soon as I've merged all contacts on the initial course. I'd make an exception to that if I'm playing a knife-fight MP duel and I have immediate contact on the opponent or in another situation where I have a very high-interest contact right off the bat. But I rarely play missions like that anyways.

[TLAM Strike]

It depends on the mission. You may need to worry about aircraft. You may need to get mission tasking. Hell, you may even need to worry about that last 10% of HPA. But, if you're overwhelmed with initial contacts, building SA quickly is priority #1, sonar is your best sensor, and sonar sucks at PD. It can wait a few minutes. I would disagree ML that sonar is your best sensor, while it has range the 'scope is the best since it give you unambiguous data. One or two sweeps with the periscope and you can get a decent solution on all contacts 5-10 nms away depending on their size (IE large ships show up farther than small ones).

[NFunky]

Thanks again for the help. I guess I've been too concerned with getting tracking started right away, but it sounds like knowing the sonar picture is more important.

Unfortunately, the periscope is the one aspect of the game I can't really use because of being visually impaired (extremely frustrating). I've been able to use it if I already know the bearing to look down and the contact is either really big (carrier, super tanker) or really close (like 3-4 nm). Basically, the target has to be about a centimeter tall before I can make it out and sweep-searching is way beyond me. Even on the Kilo, I find myself using sonar and ESM way more often than the scope.

[NFunky]

Had to bring this thread back up cause I've been trying to apply what I've learned from you guys in the Chinese Takeout mission and have found an issue we haven't really addressed yet. I'm talking, of course, about not having enough trackers on one array to cover all the contacts I have. There are definately more than four contacts in this mission once you extend your towed array. One of them can be quickly isolated as a merchant (you start out with it loud on the sphere), but the rest are purely TA contacts. There are only helo radar emissions coming from the bearing of the initial MF active intercept contact and the passive mirrors just happen to be overlapping real contacts on the other side.

I can sort out the TA sonar picture after a single 90 degree turn, but I don't know which contacts to assign trackers to initially. Since I only have four, I have a hard time tracking all true TA contacts, let alone mirrors. Have any of you played this mission and have any suggestions as to how I should handle game-start?

[Molon Labe]

Unless you have a tactical reason to value any of those 4+ tracks more than the others, I would just track the 4 you happen to have initially until you get a TMA solution, and then switch to the others until you have a solution on them.

[Castout]

I just want to comment that being tedious is my only gripe about the sim. I hate it when the scenario started with many sound contacts.

DW in those cases feels more like a chore than gaming :D

More often than not I get lazy and just use an auto TMA crew. That helps a lot.

[TLAM Strike]

if you are in a high contact environment rotate your trackers every 3 minutes or so until you locate a contact of interest. That way you have half a dot stack to work with rather than none on some and all on others.

If its a situation where there are many ships in a group assign trackers to all ending in the contacts you want to track so all contacts are available on the tma screen, then extrapolate the range and course from the contacts you are tracking. Check the sonar for the current bearing. Basically do TMA without the LOBs.

[NFunky]

I like the idea of rotating trackers every few minutes, but since updates only come at two minute intervals, I find I have to leave a tracker on a contact for at least 8 mins (initial contact, plust 3 useable LOBs) in order to even get a 'half stack' TMA. I could do this, but with a single TMA leg (unless you have DEMON data), you really can't produce a solution. If I were to make multiple TMA legs though, I would end up spending a lot of time with those first four contacts because of the towed array's turn-delay and bearing error during said turns.

However, I think I really could handle all this except for the fact that I'd be having to do this TMA while cycling the sonar contacts. I guess I'm just not good enough at multitasking, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone can manage to keep track of the sonar picture and handle TMA at the same time with more than four contacts. It's really this challenge that's keeping me from succeding in the more contact rich scenarios.

Has anyone played 'Chinese Takeout'? It's not necessarily the most complex of missions, but it's a straight-up ASW tracking mission with numerous neutral and assumed-hostile surface traffic. I have never even gotten to the point where I can search for the sub cause I spend the entire mission tracking all the other contacts.

[Molon Labe]

I played it again a few days ago.

One difference I had when I played it was that I had plenty of contacts on the hull array, which made things easier for me. I did have to rotate TA trackers.

The way it basically played out for me was I had two obvious neutrals to the north and northeast, a PROSUB to the northeast, and contacts of interest mixed with possible neutrals to the northwest. After I had initial solutions on the two neutrals (fishing boat and cargo ship), they received maybe one TMA update every half hour at the most. The PROSUB got a TA tracker whenever it was present on sonar and the rest I just tried to manage.

It took awhile to make sense of the northwest contacts because they overlapped, but eventually a trawler separated himself and became obvious, and the bearing separation of the two escorts became enough to work with. I'd say in maybe 30-45 minutes it was apparent that the target formation was two escorts line abreast with the submarine centered behind it. I used a northerly course to do an end-run around the escorts to hold the SSBN at risk until the order came.

[NFunky]

Thanks a lot ML, I really appreciate it. I'm going to give the scenario another shot, but I have one more question. How exactly did you determine one of the noreast contacts to be a PROBSUB?

[TLAM Strike]

Thanks a lot ML, I really appreciate it. I'm going to give the scenario another shot, but I have one more question. How exactly did you determine one of the noreast contacts to be a PROBSUB?

Easy ways to determine a sub from a surface contact:

Go below the layer, if it signal gets stronger or doesn't fade as much its a sub.

Get it on Broadband and do a DEMON analysis and count the blade lines, if its got 7 its almost certainly a sub. (Although some subs a known to have 4, 5, 6, 8 or 10 blades- 7 is the most common)

Also on DEMON if you have its speed via TMA check that against DEMON. This is the reverse of what most people do. If its TPK is 7 or 10 its most likely a sub. 7 for nuc, 10 for smokeboats.

Check for radar signals on ESM from that bearing. No radar signal = no sub. Unless the contact is running under EMCON or just isn't running with its radar on. (Some nasty mission designers like to do that).

Is it moving with a group? Subs travel alone (mostly).

If in high sea states the contact doesn't alter speed frequently its a sub. Subs operate independently of the weather. Small surface ships get tossed around.

Last one is kinda risky but scan with your radar. Submerged subs don't show up on radar.

[Molon Labe]

Thanks a lot ML, I really appreciate it. I'm going to give the scenario another shot, but I have one more question. How exactly did you determine one of the noreast contacts to be a PROBSUB?

It was the only northeast contact. In this case, it was just how quiet it was. Even the apparently distant surface ships were showing up as bright 2 line contacts, while the NE contact was the faint black line variety. It didn't take long for TMA to show that it was fairly close--and closing--and the contact faded instead of getting louder, so that ruled out a distant contact; it was probably a sub that was trying very hard not to be heard.

[Dr.Sid]

Also if you are looking for Russian sub, and false targets are supposed to be non Russian vessels, look for 50Hz line in narrowband sonar. Most other ships have 60Hz as their lowest frequency. Be sure to look on towed array, sphere is not good for picking these low frequencies. On the other hand, with towed array, it is the first line you get.