[IDEA]: Reducing searchlights

[h.sie]

Removing the searchlights from merchants, tankers and big battleships seems to be a great step into more realism. Schechter_Pfennig already did this in his mod:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169499
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169424

But now merchants + tankers NEVER have searchlights. What I want is a little bit of uncertainty - to be surprised if a merchant unexpectedly activates his searchlights. A probability of, let's say, 1% for a merchant to have and use his searchlight (maybe Bernard on board?) and 99% to stay dark.

So I had the idea to randomly change the availability of the searchlights using SH3-Commander, but as LGN1 (who also had that idea before me) reported, this causes CTDs when changing equipment during a patrol.

So the only possibility seems to be to restrict the availability time period to a very short time. For a propability of 1% a ship's searchlights must be available for about 2 or 3 weeks (this is 1% of the duration of the war.)

So for every ship and even every different searchlight of a ship I plan to restrict the availability time to a randomly chosen time period of 2-3 weeks.

The problem: This is static. A certain ship type e.g. will always use his front searchlight in May 1940 and his rear light in August 1943. Not nice. But I bet: A player who does not know this, will not discover it because of the multiplicity of different ships. You surely need to play more than 10 complete careers to discover the regularity.

It's a lot of work to make these changes.

What do you think: Is it worth the effort or should one be happy with the removed searchlights??

Constructive comments welcome....

h.sie

[Jimbuna]

A lot of work...your right, but worth the effort if the community are positive/supportive towards the idea.

It is always another game option to consider http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

nice idea. However, I guess it's much simpler to just have a small program that automatically chooses a random subset of Schechter_Pfennig's mod files. Then you can run the program before each patrol and activate the mod. I think this has a very similar effect and is much simpler. :06: What do you think?

Concerning the CTD: Changing the eqp file does not always lead to a CTD, but it can (my test was to save the game when a ship was close and then change the eqp file. Since you can never exclude the possibility that there is a ship close by when you save, I think one should not touch the eqp files).

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1.

Thanks for your comment. I thought of that option, too, but then in one patrol one or more certain ship types always have searchlights, the other ships not. It's too obvious in my opinion.

And I don't like to change my mod configuration after each patrol.

I am thinking about to write a Java program which automatically randomizes the availability date.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I guess your method will also have the problem of predictability because the chances that the interval ends during one's patrol is rather small :06: (My feeling is that an interval of only 2-3 weeks (a chance of 1%) during the whole war is too small (several intervals would be very nice))

Maybe it's a good idea to see which ships you mainly encounter at sea. I guess not more than 10 different (without the Merchant Fleet Mod) So with 2-3 weeks intervals chances are very small that you will ever see a searchlight :hmmm:

Cheers, LGN1

[irish1958]

This problem has always perplexed me. I would suspect that the searchlight problem would (in real life) not exist in 39 and perhaps 40, but would be almost universal after. From 1943 on I would be surprised if it ever happened.
As far as being blinded by the light, I suspect that this is 100% accurate.
If you are on the bridge of a ship and have become light adapted, and are hit with a search light, I suspect you wouldn't be able to see anything for quite some time. This is an individual thing, but it takes me about half an hour to become light adapted.
(before image-light amplification, we had to be light adapted to use the fluoroscopy machine so many older physicians are familiar with this problem.)

h.sie, could not the searchlight mod be randomized via SH3CMDR? I haven't looked into this.

[bigboywooly]

So I had the idea to randomly change the availability of the searchlights using SH3-Commander, but as LGN1 (who also had that idea before me) reported, this causes CTDs when changing equipment during a patrol.

h.sie

^ yellow ^
Hmmmm I guess you mean mid patrol saves ?
As SH3commander only adds in changes when it loads

[h.sie]

Hi BBW, yes I mean mid patrol saves. If you save a patrol, then apply changes to the .eqp files and then load the patrol again with modified .eqp files, then the changed equipment can lead to CTD. I think this is what LGN1 said, and it sounds logical.

@irish: because of this SH3-Cmdr's random funcion cannot be used, I fear, because it loads every time the game is started...

greetings,
h.sie

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

serveral random intervals of availability could be done by expanding one single entry for a searchlight, e.g.:

[Equipment 30]
NodeName=L01
LinkName=REF_small
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

into a number of short intervals with random chosen times like e.g.:

[Equipment 30]
NodeName=L01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19390101

[Equipment 31]
NodeName=L01
LinkName=REF_small
StartDate=19390102
EndDate=19390119

[Equipment 32]
NodeName=L01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19390120
EndDate=19400101

[Equipment 33]
NodeName=L01
LinkName=REF_small
StartDate=19400102
EndDate=19400115

and so on.

But this is risky because of possible typing errors and thus must be done by a program. And I don't know if it's worth the effort. So far, I also don't know what's the max. possible number of [Equipment] entries.

Greetings, h.sie

[Sailor Steve]

@irish: because of this SH3-Cmdr's random funcion cannot be used, I fear, because it loads every time the game is started...
Does it load if you reload a mid-patrol game without using Commander?

[h.sie]

no it doesn't, but then you cannot use the sh3-commander mid-patrol.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: good idea to only manipulate the most frequently available ships..

[schlechter pfennig]

If you can get this to work it sounds like it'd be pretty nifty.

[h.sie]

If you can get this to work it sounds like it'd be pretty nifty.

maybe - but maybe not. perhaps the regularity is too obvious.

I'd like to hear some critical, pessimistic voices - they would prevent me from a lot of work.

[Wreford-Brown]

It is possible to use SH3 Commander to randomise at the start of a patrol and not during a mid-patrol savegame. This should prevent any mid-patrol CTDs.

From randomised events.cfg:
There are two types of randomisation available:
1. A simple randomisation where a random value is selected from a set range.
2. A "ChooseFrom" randomisation where one set of values are chosen from any number of sets:
Set RndMidPat to 1 if you want randomisation to occur mid-patrol, 0 if not

It's also possible to set the randomisation to occur in any given date range, so you could have a 90% chance of the merchants using searchlights in 1939/40 reducing to a 5% chance in 1944/45:

Include ApplyToPeriod=<Start date as YYYYMMDD>|<End date as YYYYMMDD> as the first entry in the section to set the date range for settings to apply.

If you create a series of subsets (and randomise them as well?), you should be able to get a true randomisation of searchlights across years and ship types.

Let me think about this one :hmmm:

[h.sie]

Hi WB,

this is very helpful, thanks! I did not know about the RndMidPatrol Variable. So there is a chance that SH3Cmdr can be used. Great.

But all these thoughts are useless if merchants in the war REALLY NEVER used their searchlights when in uboat alert state. Maybe it historically most accurate to completely remove the lights as schlechter_pfennig already did.

I dont know this.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi all,

I tried to use SH3 Commander, but I am pretty sure it does not work (for my malfunction mod I tried to use it a lot). The comment in randomised events.cfg is missleading (at least my tests show different results). The problem is that each time you run SH3Commander the first thing is that it removes the old changes. Here is an old post from JScones:


When you press "Launch SH3!", SH3Cmdr performs the following steps in this order (for the sake of brevity, let's just assume that an existing career is being launched):

1. Removes previously installed files (color and bold made by me, LGN1)
2. Reads SH3Cmdr settings/options
3. Determines whether career will be retired (if option selected)
4. Determines next patrol start date
5. Copies into SH3 any Flotilla folder files
6. Copies into SH3 any U-boat folder files
7. Copies into SH3 any Date folder files
8. Copies into SH3 any Random folder files
9. Determines whether crewman will be retired (if option selected)
10. Writes Text Settings to **_menu.txt
11. Writes Menu variable text to **_menu.txt
12. Writes Days in Base value to Basic.cfg
13. Writes Crew fatigue model to Basic.cfg (if option selected)
14. Writes correct U-boat availability dates to Basic.cfg (if option selected)
15. Writes deck gun settings to GUNS_SUB.sim (if option selected)
16. Writes water density setting to scene.dat (if option selected)
17. Writes wave height setting to scene.dat (if option selected)
18. Writes random tonnage variations
19. Writes random crush depth
20. Writes random events
21. Writes static settings
22. Randomises Gramaphone tracks (if option selected)
23. Launches SH3!!!!

So, that's the problem. If the eqp file has been changed in port, the changes will be removed when you run SH3 Commander the second time during a patrol (eqp files will not be modified again during a patrol). Would be great if SH3 Commander would keep a log file with the changes that have RndMidPat=0 and reactivate the changes during a patrol. To summarize, the RndMidPat=0 means that you can GET the change only in port, but you LOOSE it at sea (if you run Commander again). At least, that's what my tests show.

The only solution via SH3 Commander would be not running it again during a patrol.

[LGN1]

Hi BBW, yes I mean mid patrol saves. If you save a patrol, then apply changes to the .eqp files and then load the patrol again with modified .eqp files, then the changed equipment can lead to CTD. I think this is what LGN1 said, and it sounds logical.

...

greetings,
h.sie

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

In general, I think the idea with different equipment entries with different dates is great (assuming you can add enough entries to the eqp files without performance problems)!

Probably it would be enough for the ten most used merchants and between 1940 and 1943/44 (or when people stop using the deck gun).

Cheers, LGN1

[Wreford-Brown]

Hi all,

I tried to use SH3 Commander, but I am pretty sure it does not work. The comment in randomised events.cfg is missleading (at least my tests show different results). The problem is that each time you run SH3Commander the first thing is that it removes the old changes. Here is an old post from JScones:


When you press "Launch SH3!", SH3Cmdr performs the following steps in this order (for the sake of brevity, let's just assume that an existing career is being launched):

1. Removes previously installed files (color and bold made by me, LGN1)
2. Reads SH3Cmdr settings/options
3. Determines whether career will be retired (if option selected)
4. Determines next patrol start date
5. Copies into SH3 any Flotilla folder files
6. Copies into SH3 any U-boat folder files
7. Copies into SH3 any Date folder files
8. Copies into SH3 any Random folder files
9. Determines whether crewman will be retired (if option selected)
10. Writes Text Settings to **_menu.txt
11. Writes Menu variable text to **_menu.txt
12. Writes Days in Base value to Basic.cfg
13. Writes Crew fatigue model to Basic.cfg (if option selected)
14. Writes correct U-boat availability dates to Basic.cfg (if option selected)
15. Writes deck gun settings to GUNS_SUB.sim (if option selected)
16. Writes water density setting to scene.dat (if option selected)
17. Writes wave height setting to scene.dat (if option selected)
18. Writes random tonnage variations
19. Writes random crush depth
20. Writes random events
21. Writes static settings
22. Randomises Gramaphone tracks (if option selected)
23. Launches SH3!!!!

So, that's the problem. If the eqp file has been changed in port, the changes will be removed when you run SH3 Commander the second time during a patrol (eqp files will not be modified again during a patrol). Would be great if SH3 Commander would keep a log file with the changes that have RndMidPat=0.

But if you use randomised events.cfg it writes it in as ser 20 and you only need to rewrite the exact line that you need to replace, so you may be able to add:
EQUIPMENT##|LinkName=NULL and it should get rid of the searchlight.

If you reverse engineer my mid-patrol radio orders mod you could give it a try.

[LGN1]

Hi Wreford-Brown,

thanks for the comment. I took a look at your mid-patrol radio orders mod, but cannot see how it helps in the present situation :06: Could you please be a bit more specific?

I think the main problem is that SH3 Commander does not offer the option that some files are randomized/changed only in port AND kept in the same state over a patrol (while re-running SH3 Commander). In order to offer such a feature, it would need some kind of 'memory' (what I guess is difficult if you think of using SH3 Commander for different commanders/careers in parallel). Maybe JScones can comment on this.

Cheers, LGN1

[Wreford-Brown]

If you can tell me which type of ship and which equipment number you'd like to test I can give you a few lines to paste into your randomised events.cfg file in commander.

The test will work best with just one type of ship (preferably a warship) and one that is quite easy to find in game for testing. For the initial test I'd be tempted to use a warship that is in one of the single missions so we don't add the complication of the _RND files.

I can also run up a test single mission with that specific type of ship if it's easier for you.

[h.sie]

Thanks all for your co-operation.

Since Plan B (using SH3-Cmdr.) is still a little bit nebulous for me, I'm thinking primary about Plan A: Pseudo-Randomizing the availablity dates for the searchlights of the 10 (-20) most commonly used merchants/tankers (in convoys).

While searching through Campaign_RND.mis in order to find out which merchants are most commonly used in convoys, I found entries like this:

[RndGroup 210.RndUnit 1]
Type=101
Origin=British
Side=0
No=2

Ok, there will be spawned 2 British Tankers (Type=101). But which ones? In the Roster/British/Sea directory one can find more than one tanker. Is this determined by random? If yes, it will be hard to find out which are the most commonly used ships.

Any suggestions / help?

Thanks, h.sie

[Wreford-Brown]

In the _RND file it could spawn any Type 101 ship which are most of the tankers and the Whale Factory Ship. In order to get test results you'd have to adjust all of these ships.

If you're trying to test you could go into one of the single missions and see what ships are used. For example: the Airship Escort mission has two Clemson Class destroyers, two Armed Tugboats and two Modern Medium Tankers so adjusting any of those should give you decent test results. I'd recommend setting the randomisation to 100% for the test (to ensure you get the results you're after) then adjust the randomisation until you get the effect you're after. Load times are also shorter than the full campaign :up:.

Do you mind if I investigate the SH3 Commander route? I have no intention of creating a rival mod (too much hard work!) but if I can get this to work for your original idea then it opens up a few doors for some other ideas I've got.

[LGN1]

Sorry, I don't know what we want to test :oops:

- Whether the searchlights can be removed via randomised events.cfg? Sure, they can. No problem. E.g.,

[0:data\Sea\NKC3\NKC3.eqp]
;Remove searchlight
;Chance: 10%
ApplyToPeriod=19400101|19450508
ChooseFrom=10
RndMidPat=1

0_Equipment 19|LinkName=NULL
0_Equipment 20|LinkName=NULL



- Whether changing the eqp file and loading a save game created with a different eqp file can lead to a CTD? Well, my tests showed this.

The basic question/problem is how can we change the eqp files with SH3 Commander without having different eqp files during a patrol?

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi WB,

you misunderstood me. I looked in the RND.mis not for testing purposes, but for finding out which are the most commonly used ships in convoys.

No, I don't mind if you investigate the SH3-Cmdr-Route. I am thankful.
There is no rivalry. We are doing our best to make SH3 as good as possible. There is no "my idea" or "my mod".

Thanks for helping,
h.sie

[h.sie]

@LGN1: Since I'm pessimistic regarding SH3Cmdr, I'm following Plan A: Randomizing availability dates for the 10-20 most commonly used convoy ships. And currently I look into RND.mis in order to find out which ships are most commonly used.

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

as you already pointed out, the rnd layer is not very useful for finding out which ships are frequent. I would start with type 102 ships (freighters).

Whether realistic or not, the searchlights are annoying in the game and make ships harder/more risky to sink. So, I would first remove them from small type 102 ships to keep sinking larger ones more difficult/risky.

[h.sie]

Maybe I found an easy solution which could be done smartly using Sh3-Cmdr randomize function.

For testing purposes I edited the .dat file of a merchant and moved the position of the L01 and L02 Nodes for the searchlights out of the visible range by setting the Translation Y value to 1E8. Don't know where the searchlights now are, but I cannot see them anymore. Maybe they are on the moon.

This could be done easily using Sh3-Cmdr individually for each ship with a new randomization for each start of the game. The CTD caused by changed equipment mid-patrol and reported by LGN1 will not happen!

Only a little mid-testing report. Have to test, whether the searchlight on the moon can cause CTD. But I'm optimistic that it doesn't.

Furthermore I have to test, whether moving the searchlight up really makes my uboat less visible to the enemy. I'm also optimistic in this point.

And then I have to test, whether changing the .dat file mid-patrol can cause CTDs.

[h.sie]

After numerous tests (some with 20 ship convoys) I can say:

1) No CTD so far - when searchlights moved out of visible range.

2) No CTD so far - when saving mid patrol, then moving lights into or out of visible range and than reload that patrol.

Only thing left to be tested: Is my Uboat really less visible when searchlights moved out of visible range? (Or is the visibility of my Uboat hardcoded and independent of the Y-position of the searchlight???)

Then I have to become familiar with SH3-Cmdrs Randomized Events.cfg in order to automatically modify the Y-Position of the lights, which are floatingpoint values. Don't now if SH3 supports floatingpoint.

After that and if test results are positive, one can easily modify SH3-Commanders Randonized Events.cfg and make one entry for each ship to "remove" its searchlights by a certain and individual chance, let's say 90%. Every time SH3 is started using SH3-Cmdr, a new randomisation will occur for each ship type.

Chances getting better that it will work.

Drawback: It's possible that a ship has a searchlight before saving a game and the same ship doesn't have a light after reloading. But that's okay. Maybe Bernard lost the fuse.

[h.sie]

Yeah. UBoat is much less visible when searchlights moved away. (I thought that maybe visibility is independent of the searchlights Y-position).

Only thing left to do is to find out how to modify Y-Position floating point value using SH3-Cmdr.

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

very nice idea :up: Probably you just have to find out the hex offset in each ship's dat file :hmmm: The rest is simple. Will look at it in more detail. Did you try other/smaller values for the y translation? Could you make the searchlight float over the ship?

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

yes, setting the Translation Y-value to 2 or 3 lets the searchlight fly some meters above the ship. Looks funny. I tried to reduce the Y-value in order to place and hide the light in the body of the ship but the light goes through the wall. Placing the lights below the ship is perhaps risky because I fear collisions. So I decided to move them far away up. Maybe a value of 1000 to 10000 is sufficient, but 1e8 also works. Probably there is no risk of collision since the lights probably are not collisionable objects? I don't know.

Yesterday I was able to manipulate the Y value using SH3-Cmdr.

Now only one thing ist left to do: Find out the Hex-Pointers to the translation Y-Values in all ships .dat files. Maybe I do this manually, but maybe I modify an old Java program (which I used to modify the acceleration setting for ships in the .sim files) in order to find out the Hex-Pointers automatically.

I am optimistic now that we will have a Mod for SH3-Cmdr which randomizes the availability of the searchlights on each start of SH3-Cmdr. And one can easily modify the propability by changing the ChooseFrom parameter in the Randomized Events.cfg.

By the way: What would we do without tools like Sh3-Cmdr, S3Ditor and JSGME???? So thanks again to Skwasjer and JScones.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

very nice work :up:

Only one 'problem' left: the hex-offsets probably differ for many users (GWX, NYGM, stock,...) giving rise to many potential CTDs. Even just using S3D to change a single value will change the offset from the original value :-? I am afraid this 'problem' cannot be solved well. It's one of the most annoying thing when using hex-offsets.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

yes I know the problem that S3D adds some (unnecessary) text on the top of all binary files and so it moves the positions of the data which is a potential cause of CTD when using Sh3-Cmdr. For my personal use I always delete this text ("Edited by S3D v0.99 or so") using a Hex-Editor.

For this mod, i assume unmodified .dat files for all ships which come with GWX3 plus BBWs GWX3 - Wilhelmshafen V6.

And maybe I'll make one version for NYGM, since I cannot decide which mod to use: GWX or NYGM.

h.sie

[Anvart]

To me is difficult to understand the basic thought (en lng)...
But various "loadouts" (for ship's searchlights) + SH3 commander will help to solve this task... may be...

[h.sie]

the basic thought is not to totally remove but to reduce the amount of searchlights of merchants and to get some randomness / uncertainty regarding these searchlights.

The .eqp files for the ships equipment cannot be modified mid-patrol, because modified equipment causes CTD when a saved game is loaded.

So I try to move the lights out of the visible range.

[Anvart]

...
The .eqp files for the ships equipment cannot be modified mid-patrol, ...
For what?

[h.sie]

For enabling/disabling the searchlights of e.g. merchants. This mod will be there only for some people who don't like the huge amount of searchlights when attacking a convoy.

there is already a mod which totally removes all searchlights from merchants, and I try to make a compromise: a randomization: most merchants won't have searchlights, some will have.

[Anvart]

For enabling/disabling the searchlights of e.g. merchants. ...
You have not understood...
For what to enabling/disabling searchlights in the middle of patrol...?
...
And may be possible to replace the ship with one loadout (with SL's) with the same ship with other loadout (without SL's)...?

[h.sie]

you describe a different possible solution. one can surely disable the SL for some ships and let the SL enabled for the rest of the ships for one patrol. but that's a static solution with no uncertainty. one always knows that the small merchant and the large tanker will have and use their SL, the rest of the ships will not.
I would like some uncertainty, randomness: Every time SH3 is launched via SH3Cmdr a new randomization occurs. This is still in development state and not ready.

As far as I know the question whether a ship has SL is determined by the .eqp file, so that all ships of a certain type either have or have not SL. Don't know if SL can be changed by changing the Loadout. Even if that could be done, one has to edit the whole GWX campaign files in order to change the loadout.

[Anvart]

...
, one has to edit the whole GWX campaign files in order to change the loadout.
Naturally...

[bigboywooly]

I took the liberty to PM JScones about the SH3commander random folders
When he gets a min will look into here and let us know what is and isnt possible
As he wrote the program I guess he has a fair idea
Gotta be better than messing with hex offsets and such

[LGN1]

The '.dat file way' should work fine with SH3 Commander Random Folder feature!

Cheers, LGN1

@h.sie: Send you a PM.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: Yes, this could prevent us from using the risky Hex-Offsets.

Answered your PM!

[h.sie]

Does anyone know whether merchants use their AA guns against Uboats?

Thx, h.sie

[bigboywooly]

Does anyone know whether merchants use their AA guns against Uboats?

Thx, h.sie

AFAIK they do
They need them for aircraft attacks also
:up:

[h.sie]

This I call an instant reply. Thanks BBW.

[h.sie]

Currently working on a solution without the risky Hex-Offsets.
Instead I use the Random Folder Function of Sh3-Cmdr. Works well.

Current problem is the fine-tuning. What about these values:

Probability, that NO merchant of a convoy uses searchlight (SL): 80%
Probability, that ONE merchant ship type uses his SL: 15%
Probability, that TWO merchant ship types use SL: 5%.

(Tankers and merchants without weapons will never use their SL).

Comments welcome.
h.sie

[reaper7]

Wow, can't belive how fast your getting this to come together.
Nice work :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Does anyone know whether merchants use their AA guns against Uboats?

Thx, h.sie

Oh yes.

[h.sie]

Hi Jim,

still waiting for the Kaleun Bechers. Hope they arrive this weekend.
If not, I'll phone them again.

h.sie

[Jimbuna]

Hi Jim,

still waiting for the Kaleun Bechers. Hope they arrive this weekend.
If not, I'll phone them again.

h.sie

No problem H....in your own good time.

Much appreciated http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[irish1958]

Currently working on a solution without the risky Hex-Offsets.
Instead I use the Random Folder Function of Sh3-Cmdr. Works well.

Current problem is the fine-tuning. What about these values:

Probability, that NO merchant of a convoy uses searchlight (SL): 80%
Probability, that ONE merchant ship type uses his SL: 15%
Probability, that TWO merchant ship types use SL: 5%.

(Tankers and merchants without weapons will never use their SL).

Comments welcome.
h.sie

Do the values change with the year of the war?

[h.sie]

yes a little bit, because currently two conditions must be true to make a merchant use his light:

1) Light must be made visible by SH3-Cmdr random function.

AND

2) light must be available in the (unchanged) .eqp file

Because of 2) there is a time-dependence according to the availability times in the .eqp files.

But it's possible to make the time dependence much more obvious/dominant using the time-dependence of the random function in SH3-Cmdr.

But to use that, I need data: The propability in dependence of the time. Or in other words: At what time of the war did merchants use their lights seldom and at what time more often? Any historic data available??

h.sie

[h.sie]

In order to make halfway precise calculations regarding probabilities, I need to know the following (maybe someone can help me):

If in Campaign_RND there is a convoy ship entry like:

Origin = British
Type = 102

And in the Roster Directory for Britain there are, lets say, 5 different ships of type 102 available at the time the convoy is spawned:

Does every of these 5 ships have the same probability (20%) to be spawned or are there some ships preferred over others?

I remember to have asked that before and I also remember the answer, but it was not precise enough.

Thank you.

EDIT: DONE. Don't need information to this topic.

[irish1958]

The only person I know who might know the answer is BBW.

[h.sie]

Hi irish,

thanks. last night I made some tests with random generated convoys where Class is NOT given. It seems that every ship class which matches the "Origin" and "Type" condition is spawned with the same propability. There seems to be no preference for some ships. This I needed to know in order to make some over-all estimations regadring probability.

Regarding the time - dependence of it all: I guess that the later the war, the higher the probablility a ship uses the lights???

Some historians here?

[h.sie]

If I get no other information, I'll make a slightly increasing probability for the searchlights during the war.

[h.sie]

Little Preview:

Since I have no other historically based information, I have to guesstimate and I'll start with the following values:

"p_all_dark" is the probability that no merchant of a convoy will use his searchlight, thus the convoy keeps dark (except escorts):

Time dependency of p_all_dark:

p_all_dark (1939) = 95%
p_all_dark (1940) = 80%
p_all_dark (1941) = 70%
p_all_dark (1942) = 60%
p_all_dark (1943) = 50%
p_all_dark (1944) = 40%
p_all_dark (1945) = 30%

Otherwise, one or two (or, very improbably: more than two) merchant ship types will use their lights.

There will be 18 armed merchant ship types involved in the randomisation:

9 Cargo / Freighters (Type 102)
6 Troop Transport (Type 103)
3 Replenishment (Type 100)

Tankers (101), Coastal vessels (104) and unarmed Cargo are not involved in the randomisation and thus will never use their lights.

Warships with anti-uboat-weapons (destroyer, escorts, frigates) are also not involved in the randomisation. they always use their searchlights.

Big warships like Battleships, Cruisers are also not involved in the randomisation, but one can chose whether they should use their lights all the time or not.

Mod will use the Random-Folder function of Sh3-Cmdr. and will NOT use the risky Hex-Offset-method.

Comments welcome (maybe the quantities have to be adjusted)
h.sie

[h.sie]

....continuation of my monologue :):

Doing the final tests before publishing, I unfortunately found out that this mod in its current state conflicts with the external camera. When pressing the "," or the "." key on the keyboard in order to show the next / previous unit you get an "camera out of sectors" error. This surely has to do with the "searchlight-nodes-moved-out-of-visible-range" workaround.

On the other hand: This mod is for realism. And the external camera does not have anything to do with realism - so there is not really a conflict between them.

But in spite of this, I currently try a different solution: Instead of moving the searchlights nodes out of visible range, I deleted them in the .dat file. To be honest, I expected a CTD because now there are references to the searchlights nodes in the .eqp file but no such nodes exist in the .dat file. I was very surprised that nothing happened and all worked fine, even the external camera.

But I have to do intensive tests now to be sure all works.

[Wreford-Brown]

h.sie,

The monologue is fascinating reading and I think there are a lot of people waiting to see how your mod pans out.

Thank you for putting so much time and effort into this mod, and I can't wait to give it a go. :yeah:

[h.sie]

@WB: Thanks. Good to know there is some interest. Sometimes I fear to spam this forum.


@ALL: Removing the searchlight nodes does not work:
-> CTD when loading a savegame and .dat file changed.

So the only solution I can offer is the "move-searchlight-nodes-out-of-visible-range" method which unfortunately conflicts with the exernal camera as mentioned before. I don't mind about that, because I plan to play 100% realism of course without external camera.

But what about YOU (the reader of this post): Would you abstain from the external camera in order to have randomized searchlights?

EDIT: External camera itself works, but not the "," and "." key to change to the next/previous unit.

Thanks,
h.sie

[Jimbuna]

Hi H.....if I were you I'd create the mod to your liking and then the community have an option to consider http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[reaper7]

I think the next, previous unit in the external cam is a small loss compared to the greater gain of your Mod.
+1 for no searchlights

[h.sie]

Thanks guys. So I know it's worth the effort.

During testing I found a strange SH3 bug. I first thought it was related with my mod, but it isn't. It also appears without my mod.

I made a Single Mission for testing purposes with my Uboat in the middle of a convoy consisting of 6 different merchant ships. Distance to the ships approx. 1000m. Dark night.

Before I start to attack the ships with the Deckgun, I save the game.

1) Now I continue the game and attack them. Behaviour of the ships as expected: The sensor indicator gets red, ships use searchlights and attack back. Uboat sinks soon after some hits.

2) But when I load and continue the previously saved game, then after attacking them the sensor indicator keeps green. Ships don't use their searchlights, only one ship shoots back one or two times. Then silence. Nothing else. A completely different situation.

Now I know why one should not save / reload when enemy ships are in visible range (and even more when there is a battle running.)

But that makes testing my mod harder.

EDIT: When saving/reloading while the convoy is out of visible range, all works perfectly and as expected, even if the searchlights are randomized after the save and before the reload. This is what I urgenty needed to assure.

[Wreford-Brown]

But that makes testing my mod harder.

I have a similar testing mission but it's set up slightly differently. I get the convoy to start 50 km away from me directly due South and set the convoy to sail North. When the game loads I sail South towards them. This allows me to see whether there is a problem in the _SCR file (CTD on load), a problem with spawning the ship (they spawn around 30km from your location) or a problem with the ship itself (if there are buoyancy issues the ship tends to lag behind, if there are other issues it may sit at the original start point etc.).

[irish1958]

Testing any mod takes endless hours with little reward since if it works, nothing happens.
It also insures that you will get no feedback on the mod if it works perfectly.

Would remapping the "," and the "." keys in commands_en.cfg help avoid external camera problem?

[h.sie]

@WB: Yes, I edited my scenario to be similar to yours. Uboat coming from north to south. Convoy from south to north. Initial distance: 40km. Now all works fine. I think the critical point is when ships begin to be rendered.

@irish: yes, it would help, but it must be done in commands_en.cfg file which is part of most GUI mods. If I put a modified commands_en.cfg into my mod, it would conflict with these GUI mods. But in spite of this it's a good idea. I could describe in the Readme, how to manually remap these keys.

h.sie

[h.sie]

Hello Wreford_Brown,

I plan to use only core- GWX3 ship types for searchlight-randomization in order to make the mod compatible to BBW's GWX-WilhelmshafenV6 and your VonDosExtraShips Mod. But that will only work, if your mod does not replace these 17 core ship typs:

NSD, NAMM, NKSEF, NGRA_, NKBL_, NKC3, NKGN, NKLK_, NLL_, NRC_,
NSCT_, NVV, NLOL, NLST, NPTB, NPTR, NTR.

So could you please tell me whether your mod does or does not replace them? Currently I cannot download your mod from your mediafire page: "No server available"......

Thanks & greetings from
h.sie

[Wreford-Brown]

Hello Wreford_Brown,

I plan to use only core- GWX3 ship types for searchlight-randomization in order to make the mod compatible to BBW's GWX-WilhelmshafenV6 and your VonDosExtraShips Mod. But that will only work, if your mod does not replace these 17 core ship typs:

NSD, NAMM, NKSEF, NGRA_, NKBL_, NKC3, NKGN, NKLK_, NLL_, NRC_,
NSCT_, NVV, NLOL, NLST, NPTB, NPTR, NTR.

So could you please tell me whether your mod does or does not replace them? Currently I cannot download your mod from your mediafire page: "No server available"......

Thanks & greetings from
h.sie

My mod doesn't change any of these ship types.

[irish1958]

@irish: yes, it would help, but it must be done in commands_en.cfg file which is part of most GUI mods. If I put a modified commands_en.cfg into my mod, it would conflict with these GUI mods. But in spite of this it's a good idea. I could describe in the Readme, how to manually remap these keys.

h.sie
SetKeys allows one to remap the keys with ease.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1016

[h.sie]

@irish: setkeys is also a good idea. by the way: the "camera out of sectors" problem with the "." and "," key only occurs for ships with the hidden (moved-up) searchlights. and those ships are a minority compared to all available ships.

[Wreford-Brown]

I've always thought that the external cam appears to be linked to the searchlights and your testing seems to prove this theory.

Whenever I used the external cam it seemed to be further away from the ship when its searchlights were on. Either the theory is correct or it's a weird coincidence.

[h.sie]

Hi WB,

yes, really funny. But knowing this dependency, one eventually could change the linking of the external cam to a different (undestroyble?) part of the ship. This would avoid the camera-out-of-sectors problem.

Maybe I should look into cameras.dat.....or into the .cam files of the ships, if there are some?

h.sie

[h.sie]

It's me again. For the fine-tuning of the (time-dependent) pseudo-randomisation I need some expert help: In GRA.cfg I read:

ClassName=GRA
AppearanceDate=19380228
DisappearanceDate=19470101
DisplayName=Granville Freighter

[Unit 1]
Name=Frederick Victory
DOC=19420228
DOD=19470101

and so on until

[Unit 521]
Name=Bergen Victory
DOC=19420228
DOD=19470101

Does that mean that there will never be a GRA type in the game before 19420228 although the AppearanceDate is 19380228??

What is the difference between AppearanceDate and DOC?

Thanks, h.sie

[reaper7]

It's me again. For the fine-tuning of the (time-dependent) pseudo-randomisation I need some expert help: In GRA.cfg I read:

ClassName=GRA
AppearanceDate=19380228
DisappearanceDate=19470101
DisplayName=Granville Freighter

[Unit 1]
Name=Frederick Victory
DOC=19420228
DOD=19470101

and so on until

[Unit 521]
Name=Bergen Victory
DOC=19420228
DOD=19470101

Does that mean that there will never be a GRA type in the game before 19420228 although the AppearanceDate is 19380228??

What is the difference between AppearanceDate and DOC?

Thanks, h.sie


I belive DOC is "Date of Commision" and DOD is "date of destruction"
So AppearanceDate allows special ship types of that class to only appear from that date on and not from the date of commision for that ship class.
That means that so will get the standard GRA Type or the whole date range 19380228 to 19470101.
While the Frederick Victory and Bergen Victory will only appear from 19420228 to 19470101.

[h.sie]

Hello reaper,

I forgot to say "thank you" for your help.

Mod (let's call it BETA) is almost ready, but I hate to write the Readme.

Greetings to Ireland!

h.sie

[The General]

@h.sie

Why are you working on SH3 and not SH5?

[h.sie]

Because I don't have SH5. I'm not willing to buy a game which forces me to have an internet connection. And in it's current state, SH5 seems not to be worth the effort.