I don't want a patch #3 at this point - I do want the SDK for the game though!!

[thorn69]

Let's face it... Ubisoft is a joke at this point. They even had extra time to fix and address several crucial issues in SH5 and patch #2 didn't even come close to delivering.

At this point I think we should be given the SDK for the game instead of any future failures and disappointment. Why is it that Bethesda has the balls to release the SDK with their biggest selling games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3, but UBI won't release the SDK with any of their game titles?

Furthermore, this is most likely the last Silent Hunter game they will ever release. Their sales for SH5 were way below what they were hoping for. They couldn't even give this abysmal piece of trash away at this point.

Releasing the SDK for the game wouldn't make a difference to them. The engine for the game is dated and if they ever did decide to make a SH6 they would need a brand new engine to support it. They would have to push the envelope on graphics and immersion like they did with SH3 to get any serious attention/buyers. SH3 - SH5 is too much of the same with only a few differences. The sad part is that SH3 (the first game built on this engine) is the better version of all three.

Instead of petitioning for patches and making wish lists for SH5, we should be demanding for the SDK. At least the mod community would have an easier time achieving the goals that most of us are looking for. They've got to have the tools to be able to get it done though. Right now they are working with forks when they should be working with wrenches.

SDK - Software Development Kit *aka* All the tools needed to build, tweak, and improve the game.

[danlisa]

The licensed SDK costs $12500. Start saving.:yeah:

You will NEVER get the SDK by other means. Even if you did, didn't hold the license and released content based on that code, you will end up in court.

The developers of the SDK do not mess about. This much we know.

P.S The difference here is that Bethesda created their own SDK and can do with it as they please. UBI did not, they bought it.

[Faamecanic]

Something the modders here have been asking for since SH 3 since even then UBI released a half finished POS. Not gonna happen.

:down:

[krashkart]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119555

Hasn't happened yet. No such thing as charity in that massive construct. As long as there is the slightest possibility of making more money from the series, there will never be an SDK for us to tinker with.

[danlisa]

SH3 & SH4 were built using Kashmir (I think, a bit rusty on that). I believe that was an 'in house' tool created by one of the developers. They could have released that if they wanted.

SH5 is a purchased SDK system and UBI cannot distribute it. You want it, you buy it.

[krashkart]

I stand corrected on two points.

[SabreHawk]

I'd love to see this SDK thing too, but as we have seen in the past UBI still has not learned from the extreme success of the MSFS series.
If they would have the SH series could have blossomed into sooooo much more than the sum of it's parts and made them more money than they could imagine. Just as the MSFS series has for microsoft.

A closed archetecture is what nearly sent Apple down the tube, while Steve's counterpart made himself the wealthiest software giant in the industry.

[Faamecanic]

Personally Im FINE with all the major publishers going to selling A.D.D kiddie console games only.

I think that will then open the market once again to small dev houses making game programs becuase the Devs LOVE the subject matter, and love to put it in software code. NOT because all they want is a fat bottom line (this is leveled at EA as well as UBI)

Remember back in the early 80's ATARI was all about making games for the ATARI 6800, and Coleco was all about Coleco vision.... but yet there were fantastic games coming out for the IBM 8086.

Again if demand is there...someone will fill the gap.

[schlechter pfennig]

The licensed SDK costs $12500. Start saving.

That's twelve thousand, five hundred, right?

Not as bad as I'd've expected, and almost enough for me to consider taking out a second mortgage and buy it, just so we can make SH5 what it could have been and should have been.

[aergistal]

That's twelve thousand, five hundred, right?

Not as bad as I'd've expected, and almost enough for me to consider taking out a second mortgage and buy it, just so we can make SH5 what it could have been and should have been.

Or having 12.500 users donate 1$ :DL

[Laffertytig]

$12500 for the sdk which is the source code right? i find it very hard to believe it would be that cheap. i thought it wouldve been more like $125000!

[copper01]

If we all give Subsim 20.00 subsim could buy it Right ? :salute:

[aergistal]

Maybe the founder of the site could administrate the fund. Make an additional act to use the money for the sole purpose of buying the software. Run it on a dedicated server and let people have server time trough vnc.

But would this really help? danlisa, where did you come up with that info?

Searching for Kashmir on the net gets me to some "software for making landscape CG or amuzing 3D maps." :DL See? The collisions are feature not a bug. They are there for entertainment purposes.

[danlisa]

$12500 for the sdk which is the source code right?

That buys you the license to use the Tools that the UBI devs used to create the GR2 files in SH5. A knowledge of C & C++ coding is required to create a compiler/editor. These GR2 files are the only items in SH5 that are locked to modders. They contain all models, nodes, animations, everything etc.....

Interested? Check here: http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html

[Takao]

Given the the effort Ubi put into SHV and patches, it should be $12.50

[aergistal]

That buys you the license to use the Tools that the UBI devs used to create the GR2 files in SH5. A knowledge of C & C++ coding is required to create a compiler/editor. These GR2 files are the only items in SH5 that are locked to modders. They contain all models, nodes, animations, everything etc.....

Interested? Check here: http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html

But isn't the content baked in some form? If you have the UDK it doesn't mean you can modify Unreal Tournament. It means you can build something similar using the Unreal3 Engine.

If it comes to building a new sub sim from scratch there are open source engines, like Ogre3D.

So, is there such a thing as Silent Hunter SDK in the first place?

[danlisa]

But isn't the content baked in some form? If you have the UDK it doesn't mean you can modify Unreal Tournament. It means you can build something similar using the Unreal3 Engine.

So, is there such a thing as Silent Hunter SDK in the first place?

UT3 is slightly different. The tool used there is a limited one released by the studio.

Silent Hunter does have a SDK, the Devs built it using the Granny SDK/API from RAD Games.

Therefore, if you have the original code used to create the SH5 tools, then you can deconstruct anything created in that format. Some people have already proved it so BUT nothing can be released for fear of prosecution. Indeed even contacting the creators of Granny (the coder not the studio) has told them that it's a big NO NO.

[aergistal]

You can reverse engineer a lot of things. But it's still tampering with software and illegal. It's just that for a moment I thought there *was* a publicly available SDK for SH.

edit: lol, please do not discuss decompilation. Even if it's not in the rules I don't think the mods will like the idea and I had my share of infraction on my first post :DL This time it was to point out there is no actual SDK to buy out there. Shikata ga nai

[danlisa]

You can reverse engineer a lot of things. But it's still tampering with software and illegal.

And just what have we been doing since the release of SH2? LOL

It's just that for a moment I thought there *was* a publicly available SDK for SH.

There is, I linked it. SH5 was built using that and SH5 can be modded using that. Anyone owning the Granny Tools License will be able to create their own tools and create new content for the SH5 environment. Reverse engineering is only one method and usually only tells you the make up/structure of the content you wish to emulate.;)

[aergistal]

From what I could find GR2 files are used to hold mesh data, textures, animations. So yeah you could create tools to create SH content with that SDK.

Content creation is one thing, but let's say I want to override path-finding. Wouldn't I need some interface to SH and not Granny3D, more like a SH API? The functionality needs to be exposed to be able to do that. I think that thorn69 had in mind more than just content creation.

[jdkbph]

These GR2 files are the only items in SH5 that are locked to modders. They contain all models, nodes, animations, everything etc.....



Curious. How then is this the most moddable game ever (or whatever words they actually used to describe it)?

Can these values be gotten at using tools like S3D?

JD

[kylania]

Curious. How then is this the most moddable game ever (or whatever words they actually used to describe it)?

Can these values be gotten at using tools like S3D?

JD

Th values can be edited with the Granny Editor that's included with the game. What cannot be done is entirely new items added to the game using the Granny SDK, as I understand it.

[Seeadler]

The Granny SDK is only one part of many SDK's/tools needed to fix the bugs in SH5. With the Granny SDK one can fix the 3D models but not the AI errors, the program logic errors, the network code errors, etc.

For all that, the complete source code is needed and all other inhouse tools for the 3D GDS-Systems (3D-Engine and dev-tools). The 3D GDS-Systems is the system mainly used at Ubisoft Romania to develop games. It's a highly scalable game engine wich runs on PC and consoles. SH3, SH4, SH5, HAWX and other games are developed with this engine. I assume the new HAWX2 will be also developed with this engine and therefore Ubisoft will never released an SDK for the 3D GDS-Systems to the public, because that would gave access to almost all games by Ubisoft Romania. That would be the same if Coca Cola published their recipe on the Internet.;)

[Spartan]

Something the modders here have been asking for since SH 3 since even then UBI released a half finished POS. Not gonna happen.

:down:
QFT++++ In short we need to create a new submarine game developed from within this community. I been waiting a long time for Neal to step up and make it happen. Shoot, with all his "sim" domains going I figured it would be a natural.

[aergistal]

Here's an excerpt from the Granny 3D SDK Features (source: http://www.radgametools.com/granny/sdk.html)


File format


completely transparent and flexible file format

all aspects of file format are exposed at the API level, so you can write your own Granny file readers and writers even without using the Granny API utilities for doing so
file format is not hard-coded, so you can add your own extensions or even change it completely and use it for files other than your art assets



If the format is not hard coded they coud've made a version just for SH5, meaning that with an SH importer you would be able to create GR2 files compatible just with SH and not other games.

If you can make your own file writer without the Granny API then I don't see the problem with distributing a tool to allow player generated content in as long as this tool will not be compatible with any other games. It would be for their own game, for which they already paid the license. It's not like it would be a generic exporter to compete the Granny 3D editor.

Otherwise using a proprietary format sounds like a bad idea for a moddable game to me, from the start.

As far as I understood someone talked to those at RAD Game Tools. Can someone point me to the discussion if it's on the forum, please?

[Reece]

If Subsim was to get the SDK I'd pitch in up to $200, we could get SH5 fixed and much more!!, I think the same SDK covers SH3 and 4 as well, if SH5 is the end of the Silent Hunter series it might be up for grabs!:D

[aergistal]

Why pay them?

I bet there are many talented people around here and there are sure people who know a lot of stuff about submarines (a lot more than the developers at UBI for instance). Let's create the Subsim Submarine Physics Engine. Forget about graphics for now, we could just create a module to do submarine physics that can be plugged in any 3D Engine. This can be made available as payware for companies wanting to develop submarine games or free for open source projects.

edit: I'd work on this too

[thorn69]

Danlisa - BUT WE'RE ALL FAMILY HERE! If I buy a game for my PC and my wife or daughter plays it - it's not a crime. Why? Because they're FAMILY and I can let whoever I want play my game on my computer anytime I want.

Neal could run a donation box on his site to purchase the program and donate it to anybody he wants. He just can't charge anybody for using it or make extra copies of it to distribute out. He could donate his lease/license to a dedicated mod group (the GWX team for instance). Of course it would have to be utilized on only one computer. Each member can't have a copy of it unless Neal bought multiple licenses. What are the rates for that? Sometimes you can buy licenses in bulk for a HUGE discount!

Even if all he could buy with donated money from this community we'd be better off than not having it at all! Neal could donate the community bought copy of the program to the best programmer/modder on this site who we all have 100% faith would put it to good use.

Neal could run a vote on the forum for the community to judge on who we want to have the program. That way we'll feel confident in who gets it and will put it to good use. The rest of the mod team members, if any, could send feedback in to the programmer with the program so that new ideas could be implemented.

[Herman]

Even if all he could buy with donated money from this community we'd be better off than not having it at all! Neal could donate the community bought copy of the program to the best programmer/modder on this site who we all have 100% faith would put it to good use.
Unless Seeadler is mistaken, it seems as though ownership/access of the SDK is only part of the solution and that access to a complete copy of the source code is necessary to correct all the problems with SH5. Am I missing something here?

The Granny SDK is only one part of many SDK's/tools needed to fix the bugs in SH5. With the Granny SDK one can fix the 3D models but not the AI errors, the program logic errors, the network code errors, etc.

For all that, the complete source code is needed and all other inhouse tools for the 3D GDS-Systems (3D-Engine and dev-tools).

[THE_MASK]

The sdk , you mean this one .
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6615/shipwakefoam.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/shipwakefoam.jpg/)

[commandosolo2009]

But isn't the content baked in some form? If you have the UDK it doesn't mean you can modify Unreal Tournament. It means you can build something similar using the Unreal3 Engine.

If it comes to building a new sub sim from scratch there are open source engines, like Ogre3D.

So, is there such a thing as Silent Hunter SDK in the first place?


it's not baked, it's cooked, like frag granate..

[aergistal]

it's not baked, it's cooked, like frag granate..

Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking of textures for some reason. Thanks!