What do you feel about SH5 now?

[Stronghold]

Now, that some time has already passed, there was two patches released already, I think it's a good time to express your feelings about the latest SH5 title. Therefore, I propose a few possible answers:

1. I love this game, it's my dream come true!
2. It's not bad, it can be improved by UBI
3. It's not bad, it can be improved by modders
4. It's not bad, but it's not good either
5. It's a total fiasco
6. I haven't bought this game, but I will probably buy it
7. I haven't bought this game and I will probably not buy it

Maybe they are not totally covering the possible feelings about SH5, but at least, they can give us an idea about the perception of the game in this community after some time has already passed since the game was released. It can have some relevance. For example, we can make ourselves an idea about the numbers of potential customers UBI has lost, the numbers of customers totally satisfied by UBI, the trust that we have regarding UBI support in patches or some other interesting stuff. I know that most of you probably voted two moths ago in a similar poll, but I believe this is a better moment to do that. And I will not vote in this poll, I will let the others to do that, I don't want someone to say that I am trying to influence the final results.

Please note that this is a public poll, other users can see what you've voted (I think it's honest that way) and also that this poll is only for the game itself, not for the DRM stuff. And if you think that one choice of answer is not enough, you can select multiple ones, for example: "It's not bad, it can be improved by UBI" and "It's not bad, it can be improved by modders". The ones that are not afraid to take the responsibility of their answer, are invited to participate in this poll.

Thank you for your feedback in advance, gentlemen!

[danizzz]

Total fiasco!

[Rockin Robbins]

Until the DRM is eliminated the game can be pure gold and it will STILL be a case of a game company treating us like criminals and asking us to trust them to continue to run a miserly three servers. Trust is a two way street and I don't trust 'em. End of story.

[Stronghold]

Until the DRM is eliminated the game can be pure gold and it will STILL be a case of a game company treating us like criminals and asking us to trust them to continue to run a miserly three servers. Trust is a two way street and I don't trust 'em. End of story.
If I understand right, you will not buy the game not because of its supposed bugs and other related gameplay problems, but because of the DRM. Thank you for your feedback.

[danurve]

My position is also unchanged.

http://pathfinderfishandgame.com/images/drm_turd.jpg

[danlisa]

Unchanged!

I'll support the game in my own way but UBI will not be getting money out of me for this diabolical release. It's been poor (to say the least) from it's concept.

[Sonarman]

You should really have an option for "it's not bad it an be fixed by the modders & Ubi" as in truth there are many hard coded things modders alone simply cannot fix. The real question is, if it is true that Ubi have abandoned the game (and we still have no official confirmation of that) how do we get them to come back & the core fixes needed?

[Stronghold]

You should really have an option for "it's not bad it an be fixed by the modders & Ubi" as in truth there are many hard coded things modders alone simply cannot fix. The real question is, if it is true that Ubi have abandoned the game (and we still have no official confirmation of that) how do we get them to come back & the core fixes needed?
Anyone can vote "it can be improved by UBI" and "it can be improved by modders", both options, "combined".

[Westbroek]

It's a great game that will continue to get even better. Not any more of a fiasco than any other pc release lately. It's people freaking out here that make it seem like a fiasco.
Cheers,
W

[theluckyone17]

You should really have an option for "it's not bad it an be fixed by the modders & Ubi" as in truth there are many hard coded things modders alone simply cannot fix...That would be why I voted for both.

I'd love the DRM to go away, too. I bought the software legit'ly. I installed it legit'ly. I have a good constant online connection, so as long as Ubi's servers stay up, it doesn't affect me on a practical level. That being said, it deeply offends me on a moral and ethical level.

[janh]

Well, easy: few of the things promised and highly anticioated features (wolfpacks, etc.) work properly, plenty of remnant features of SHIII don't work as they used to either, lots of stuff I had gotten so used to and made SHIII+GWX such a gem have been dropped out entirely (Type II, IX, XXI, later years, the baracks etc, crew losses etc). Patching and support does occur at a bare minium level, and if I had bought it, I would be really angry now, probably feel quite stupid and cheated. Ubi is not any better than the people they aimed the DRM chains at -- oh, ups, they aimed at the loyal customers (and resellers), I forgot.

Hey, but you can walk through your underpopulated, overscaled submarine interior all day long, don't even have to care about submarine warfare and get soup all along! And yeah, it has so beautiful graphics! Especially when you see the screenshots of ships running on shore, or running through each other... /sarcasm end/.

I guess there is, thus far, only one possible conclusion...

[Stronghold]

Well, easy: few of the things promised and highly anticioated features (wolfpacks, etc.) work properly, plenty of remnant features of SHIII don't work as they used to either, lots of stuff I had gotten so used to and made SHIII+GWX such a gem have been dropped out entirely (Type II, IX, XXI, later years, the baracks etc, crew losses etc). Patching and support does occur at a bare minium level, and if I had bought it, I would be really angry now, probably feel quite stupid and cheated. Ubi is not any better than the people they aimed the DRM chains at -- oh, ups, they aimed at the loyal customers (and resellers), I forgot.

Hey, but you can walk through your underpopulated, overscaled submarine interior all day long, don't even have to care about submarine warfare and get soup all along! And yeah, it has so beautiful graphics! Especially when you see the screenshots of ships running on shore, or running through each other... /sarcasm end/.

I guess there is, thus far, only one possible conclusion...

I totally agree with your signature, but as I have stated before, I only want to emphasis the subjective perception of this community regarding SH5. And after the poll will be over, I will draw myself a personal subjective conclusion regarding the material that the members of SH5 forums are made of, if I can say that ...

[robbo180265]

•SH4 ships can now be imported (useful for modders).
•Improvements in the reward system for U-boats in the dynamic campaign
•Improvements to the AI
•Changes to accommodate RU localization will therefore be present in patch 1.2, but will not affect players in a visible form.

Right now I'm still amazed that these were dropped from the patch - pretty crucial IMO.

I'll be playing SH3 GWX3 for the foreseeable future....

[Sailor Steve]

I know you said it's not about DRM, but in spite of all the problems that is still the only thing keeping me from buying it. I've been in private discussion with a couple of modders who are working on it, and I'm still looking forward to doing so myself.

So I will definitely buy it once the OSP is removed.

[Sonarman]

Anyone can vote "it can be improved by UBI" and "it can be improved by modders", both options, "combined".

That's what I did but it won't do your post poll analysis any good.

[gimpy117]

Why look a girt horse in the mouth? At least UBI is TRYING to fix stuff.

Maybe not everything they wanted to release did get out...but its in the works. we'll have more ships soon enough :up:

[Sonarman]

Yes, indeed it does look like the devs have indeed made some changes to the model import... as Dan just posted a few minutes ago...

"With patch 1.2 dat files should now load textures properly. The problem they have is related to reflections. "

[robbo180265]

Yes, indeed it does look like the devs have indeed made some changes to the model import... as Dan just posted a few minutes ago...

"With patch 1.2 dat files should now load textures properly. The problem they have is related to reflections. "

Which is a major step in the right direction.:up:

[mobucks]

I feel like i waited over a year for Empire: Total War to be patched and modded to a playable/enjoyable state and im having a frikin blast playing DarthMod 6.0 so yeah it can be a long road sometimes but in the end, if it is ever worth it, its worth it (to wait and see how things turn out).

Thankyou to all modders, of all games, even ones that merely make nudie Lara Croft skins. They are heroes!

[scrapser]

This is the first time I have refused to buy a game that ordinarily I would purchase on sight. I am so, so, SO glad I made this decision. I come here to the forums hoping for some news that would change my mind but only find solid reinforcement for my decision.

[aergistal]

Hah, I'm not the only one who voted 'I haven't bought this game, but I probably will buy it'. There IS another person :DL

[karamazovnew]

I think I got my money's worth out of the game. But compared with how much I enjoyed both SH3 and SH4, my personal opinion is that SH5 is a fiasco.

[Madimax]

Hmm..we have today one serious subsim devloper for all of us subsim fans...we might think to be abit more supportiv and think more about creative critisism rather then trying to sink them....just a thought

[Sailor Steve]

Hah, I'm not the only one who voted 'I haven't bought this game, but I probably will buy it'. There IS another person :DL
That was me, but there are four of us now. You can click on the numbers to see who voted how.:sunny:

[Frumpkis]

Hah, I'm not the only one who voted 'I haven't bought this game, but I probably will buy it'. There IS another person :DL

I voted that way too, but polls like this aren't nuanced enough to cover all the conditions. What I intended with that vote is more like "I haven't bought this game, but I probably will buy it, but it depends on what it looks like after more official patches and whatever the modders can do."

To balance out that somewhat positive-sounding vote of confidence, I also voted that the game is a "fiasco," which is exactly what I think about the current state of the game. And yes, even with mods, from what I've seen so far. I'm the perfect target audience for this type of game. I've bought every major tactical combat sim since the early days of home computers. It's a tragedy that Ubi can't manage to release something that gets someone like me -- who will buy any good PC simulator game -- to pull the trigger.

It's unclear to me how much the modders can do with SH5 in the main areas I care about -- the AI mostly, but also things that break immersion like pathfinding glitches. So I'm still waiting to see what happens. I haven't bought DCS Black Shark yet (haven't had a computer that could run it until very recently), so they're getting my money this month instead of Ubi, who should have been first in line.

[Flopper]

This is the first time I have refused to buy a game that ordinarily I would purchase on sight. I am so, so, SO glad I made this decision. I come here to the forums hoping for some news that would change my mind but only find solid reinforcement for my decision.

LOL I was seriously looking at purchasing a new machine specifically for SH5. Still absorbing the comments and waiting, of course. Thanks, subsim! :yeah:

[609_Avatar]

What I intended with that vote is more like "I haven't bought this game, but I probably will buy it, but it depends on what it looks like after more official patches and whatever the modders can do."

I would have voted that way also but looking at recent history made me choose otherwise...

[razark]

Hmm..we have today one serious subsim devloper for all of us subsim fans...we might think to be abit more supportiv and think more about creative critisism rather then trying to sink them....just a thought

Let's pretend you live in a small town that only has one barber.

You go for a hair cut, and he sets your head on fire. Are you going to keep going back just because you need to "be abit more supportiv"? He is the only barber in town, after all. If he goes out of business, you won't have a barber at all.

[Madimax]

:) Good one m8!
Taking it to a new dimension makes it all clear :DL

[Madox58]

Let's pretend you live in a small town that only has one barber.

You go for a hair cut, and he sets your head on fire. Are you going to keep going back just because you need to "be abit more supportiv"? He is the only barber in town, after all. If he goes out of business, you won't have a barber at all.


Not quite a good metaphor.
I could whoop that Barber Arse!
He's right there with a fire extinguiser!
(Or better be!)
:haha:

Where's those in charge of this mess?
I think a public lynching is in order.
At the very lest?
Tar and feather and run outta town on a rail!

[Nisgeis]

Let's pretend you live in a small town that only has one barber.

You go for a hair cut, and he sets your head on fire. Are you going to keep going back just because you need to "be abit more supportiv"? He is the only barber in town, after all. If he goes out of business, you won't have a barber at all.

I'd ask the barber who cut his hair and go there.

[razark]

I'd ask the barber who cut his hair and go there.

He's bald.

[Yak]

I played SH3 and 4 vanilla out of the box (even without patches) for a long time without major issues generally, bugs I can deal with, this DRM I cannot (Literally, I can't use it weather I want to or not)

Remove the online requirement, Ubi has a sale.

[609_Avatar]

I cut my own hair. It's short enough that it takes no effort at all. :O:

[jdkbph]

I was looking for the selection that describes my feelings, but didn't find it.

It's crap, but the modders just might be able to salvage it.

JD

[7thSeal]

I think it's a good time to express your feelings about the latest SH5 title.



Are you entertained?

That's what you're paying for with the least effort required... same as any other entertainment lol. :DL

[Nordmann]

I voted as follows:

It's not bad, but can be improved by Ubi.

It's not bad, but can be improved by modders.

[brett25]

This is the first time I have refused to buy a game that ordinarily I would purchase on sight. I am so, so, SO glad I made this decision. I come here to the forums hoping for some news that would change my mind but only find solid reinforcement for my decision.

:up:

[robbo180265]

He's bald.

And burnt probably:har:

[Iron Budokan]

Haven't bought it, not likely to.

That's cool. I'm pretty busy with other things. :)

[GerritJ9]

"Haven't bought it, and never will" has been my position from the start, and still is. I hoped for further expansions for SH4, which would add RN, IJN and RNethN, thus making SH4 represent all nations whose navies used subs in the Far East as the Atlantic is less interesting to me.
No such luck. Instead, another U-Boot sim. It got worse: one sub type only, and only until 1943. Interest dropped further. Then the killer: DRM. I already had two sims with DRM (Distant Guns and Jutland) and much as I love these, I would definitely not buy them again because of the DRM SES use, even though it's by no means as intrusive as UBI's. This applies to ALL sims with DRM as far as I'm concerned. And judging by the reviews and everything that has been posted here and elsewhere, I'm not missing anything, really. The only things about SH5 that interest me are the ships such as "Emden", which hopefully will be reverse-engineered for SH4. Firstly, they would make great additions to the "Battle for the Baltic" campaign. Even more importantly, "Emden" would make a useful stand-in for the "Java" and "Sumatra" until somebody makes an accurate model for them- the RNethN's cupboard is rather bare :(.

[mikeydredd]

I voted "haven't bought this game and I will probably not buy it".

From what I'm reading version 1.1 with mods is far superior to version 1.2 without. Ubi seem to have dropped the ball again.

My real position is will NEVER buy this as long as it is hamstrung by this version of DRM.

EVER.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[Méo]

I wonder how long the obsession around this game will last...

[Nordmann]

I wonder how long the obsession around this game will last...

The obsession with DRM you mean? They'll probably never get over it, unfortunately.

[commandosolo2009]

Until the DRM is eliminated the game can be pure gold and it will STILL be a case of a game company treating us like criminals and asking us to trust them to continue to run a miserly three servers. Trust is a two way street and I don't trust 'em. End of story.

agreed capt. robbins 100%:yeah:

[Méo]

The obsession with DRM you mean? They'll probably never get over it, unfortunately.

DRM or not, patch or no patch, rely on mods or not...

I just wonder for how long people who hate so much this game will feel the need to express their obsession.

[Nordmann]

DRM or not, patch or no patch, rely on mods or not...

I just wonder for how long people who hate so much this game will feel the need to express their obsession.

Well, they obviously don't hate it as much as they claim, if they are viewing/posting in the SH5 board.

You have to wonder at the logic of these people at times.

[krashkart]

Wow, I'm one of six that might buy it at some point. :yawn:

[robbo180265]

Wow, I'm one of six that might buy it at some point. :yawn:

I saw that:up:

[flag4]

i will buy this sim, but i'll probably be pushin' 50 when i do - please take into account how long it has taken SH3 to get to the glorious game/sim/passion that it has become; some idea how old i am now:woot:

sarcastic remarks welcome:salute:

[IanC]

Total fiasco, no doubt about it.
I always believed that in a couple of years we could play SH5 with some kind of Super-Mod and it would be a great subsim, right up there with SH3+GWX.
But now, I'm even doubting that. There's a limit to what modders can do, so if this game doesn't get patched properly there might be some hard-coded holes they won't be able to fill.

[Sailor Steve]

sarcastic remarks welcome:salute:
I would never do that...junior.:O::D

[janh]

DRM or not, patch or no patch, rely on mods or not...

I just wonder for how long people who hate so much this game will feel the need to express their obsession.

The ones who truly hate it are probably long gone. But there are a quite a few persistent onlookers here, me included, that still hope that all this makes a turn to the better. One can only hope that Ubi Romania was not already completely put on a different project but will finally deliver some better patches and content additions than thus far. That, and if the DRM goes one day, I bet Ubi will report a surge in SHV sales. My money they still might get, but only if they start returning value for dollar.

However, presently it looks worse and worse with every week that passes to me as an outsider. Happy news on SHV? Where? When?

[JackAubrey]

With this kind of DRM, I will never buy *any* game.

[mobucks]

you guys are such aggressive haters haha

[Madox58]

you guys are such aggressive haters haha

Now I've added you to my Hate list Mate!
Just kidding.
:haha:
:hmmm:
Or am I?
Sometimes I hate my wife.
But don't tell her I said that.
I'd be doing dishes for ever!

No Dear, I'm not on the internet!
Was just checking my E-Mail and sorry I didn't get the trash............

[Méo]

The ones who truly hate it are probably long gone.

Not all of them.

However, presently it looks worse and worse with every week that passes to me as an outsider.

Well, you've said it, it looks. There are folks here who really enjoy to make things worse than they really are. (and still some of them never played it at all...)

Happy news on SHV? Where? When?

I guess we'll just have to be very patient.

[7thSeal]

My money they still might get, but only if they start returning value for dollar.


Sadly, we don't live in that type of gaming world anymore... really,,, a console game $60 is value for dollar? yeah for them you bet it is. ;)

[krashkart]

I'm still evolving a little on this. Just waiting out the hard evolution this portion of the series seems to be going through... kinda reminds me of the scenes in "The Search For Spock"; after Spock is reborn he is in constant agonizing pain because of his accelerated growth. :)

[V.C. Sniper]

won't ever buy it.

sh5 sucks plain and simple... just like how the game is

[Madox58]

And your 'Expert' opinion is based on what?
:hmmm:
Don't own the Game.
Don't play it.

Which puts you in the catagory of,
Hmmmmmmmm..........

If you don't own it or play it?
Your opinion means didaly squat.

Some of us do own it and do play it.
So we are granted rights to whine and complain!
It's in the EULA!
Oh!
You don't have that so are not aware of the Whiners/Moaners Clause.
My mistake.
:haha:

[TarJak]

Haven't got it, won't get it.

[janh]

Sadly, we don't live in that type of gaming world anymore... really,,, a console game $60 is value for dollar? yeah for them you bet it is. ;)

Console or not, there is so much options out there to spend money on that I do not really depend on a game, at least not a single one. There is the new ARMAII addon coming from a company that listens to customer wishes and has excellent support, as well as two new matrix games that I am eying with for a while (WITP-AE or the upcoming War in the East). Then I might like to read this new book about Jacksons Valley Campaign, so maybe that? Or else another 100 ideas I could come up with. And since SHIII with supermods is still working and looking excellent to me, while the wolfpacks in SHV are still not wolfpacks and so many things are missing, I think there is no reason presently to buy SHV and I can sit back and wait till it reaches a satisfying state... or Ubi announces it will stop patching it and I can forget it. However, I have not yet given up hope.

[kylania]

There is the new ARMAII addon coming

Which is gonna rock! :yeah::rock:

[Jack Davidson]

Which is gonna rock! :yeah::rock:

Bring it on!:yeah:

[Steeltrap]

I don't suppose it's occurred to some of you making snide remarks about people who don't like the game yet still visit that they do so because they like this site and its community?

I've been around for quite a while now. I haven't bought SH5 and won't.

The other thing I don't do is flood the forum with posts about why not. For those who chose to buy it, I hope they enjoy it. I don't seek to detract from their enjoyment.

I'm equally happy to participate in discussions around 'realism' or 'improvements'. I don't see that I need to own the game to do that.

I could do without some people taking the view that I shouldn't post in a thread asking for my opinion simply because they don't like my opinion. Were I to take the same apporach, I'd be suggesting they F-off to sites where everyone is expected to express only ONE opinion (often those sites run by the publishers).

This community isn't like that. It benefits from a divergence of views. I suggest people would do well to remember that.

As an aside, a poll that allows multiple responses is all but useless for any form of analysis without a LOT of work, but it's probably pointless having that discussion.

Cheers

[robbo180265]

I don't suppose it's occurred to some of you making snide remarks about people who don't like the game yet still visit that they do so because they like this site and its community?

I've been around for quite a while now. I haven't bought SH5 and won't.

The other thing I don't do is flood the forum with posts about why not. For those who chose to buy it, I hope they enjoy it. I don't seek to detract from their enjoyment.

I'm equally happy to participate in discussions around 'realism' or 'improvements'. I don't see that I need to own the game to do that.

I could do without some people taking the view that I shouldn't post in a thread asking for my opinion simply because they don't like my opinion. Were I to take the same apporach, I'd be suggesting they F-off to sites where everyone is expected to express only ONE opinion (often those sites run by the publishers).

This community isn't like that. It benefits from a divergence of views. I suggest people would do well to remember that.

As an aside, a poll that allows multiple responses is all but useless for any form of analysis without a LOT of work, but it's probably pointless having that discussion.

Cheers

+10 good post:up:

[JScones]

I chose "I haven't bought this game and I will probably not buy it" but that's not quite right, in one sense. See, Ubisoft sent me a (free) copy of SH5 before official release, so I do actually own a copy.

But I've only opened it once to see if it included a printed manual. Since then it's been sandwiched between my SH3 and SH4 DVD cases.

From what I've read today I won't be installing it anytime soon. Problem is, I sense that 1.2 will be the final patch for the final game in the series. I just can't help but think that Ubisoft (collective, ie devs and suits) have been quite disinterested in supporting SH5 (ironic really, given all the "You must buy this game to support the series" rants of so recent. ;)).

I was tempted to select "Total fiasco", as that certainly is my view of the Ubisoft (again, collective) handling of the game, but I chose not to as I felt that option was only for those who have played the game. I would really hate to upset the few people here who think that those who don't own the game aren't entitled to an opinion on it. ;)

"So why then post here?" I hear you ask. Simple, I don't want the game to "suck". If the response from players to 1.2 was as glowing as the anticipation was (remember the "1.2 will fix all our problems" :yeah: posts?), then I'd be the first to select one of the other more favourable options.

But, alas, with each passing day it is looking less likely.

[krashkart]

JScones, I hope your intuition about the patch is off. It would be sad to see the boat sink so soon out of the pens. Let's give it until at least 1.3 before writing it off. :haha:

[Zedi]

Seriously, people who don't own and play the game should be not allow to post no matter what. This is allowed only here, no other game community accept this attitude. If the legit owners complaint and bug report will be mixed with the haters, there is really no chance that the developers will take us seriously. The "feedbacks" here are almost 50% made by those who don't own or play the game.. disturbing. Even those who play the pirated game should have more right to post oppinions about SH5, no offence.

So if you love SH3-4.. good for you. There is a dedicated forum for SH3 and 4, use it. But I don't think is right that we are constantly spammed here with "SH5 sux, I will never buy it haha you loosers .. SH3 owns !!1!11" :/

[Rockin Robbins]

Once you have paid your money for the game you have already sent the only message Ubi will ever listen to: cheat me again! Those of us who are jingling the money in our pockets, waiting to purchase a real submarine simulator that respects its customers as honest people at the least or at best as enthusiastic assets in the future sales of a great product are the only ones sending a message that goes beyond "cheat me more!"

Our message is "Respect us as customers, supporters, potential mini advertising agencies, each and every one of us. We are responsible for your success or failure and we certainly are advertising now. Don't buy this travesty."

Our message will be effective and final. The customer whose economic behavior is responsible and unyielding always wins. By the way, I have lots of posts in Ubi forums.

[danlisa]

Seriously, people who don't own and play the game should be not allow to post no matter what. This is allowed only here, no other game community accept this attitude.

It's not up to the game community what is allowed at Subsim, that privilege falls to Neal.

Neal and his team will decide what is permitted but I'll tell you this now, Subsim has always been (and will remain so) an open discussion forum regardless of beliefs, affiliations and differing views. This sets SS apart from every other game forum and IMHO is what makes SS so popular.

[IanC]

Once you have paid your money for the game you have already sent the only message Ubi will ever listen to: cheat me again! Those of us who are jingling the money in our pockets, waiting to purchase a real submarine simulator that respects its customers as honest people at the least or at best as enthusiastic assets in the future sales of a great product are the only ones sending a message that goes beyond "cheat me more!"

Our message is "Respect us as customers, supporters, potential mini advertising agencies, each and every one of us. We are responsible for your success or failure and we certainly are advertising now. Don't buy this travesty."

Our message will be effective and final. The customer whose economic behavior is responsible and unyielding always wins. By the way, I have lots of posts in Ubi forums.

I agree. "People treat you the way you've taught them to treat you" - Dr.Phil (I think)

[Zedi]

...
Our message is "Respect us as customers, supporters, potential mini advertising agencies, each and every one of us. We are responsible for your success or failure and we certainly are advertising now. Don't buy this travesty."
...
Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Me as a valid customer, I have the right to smash their faces, scream my anger all over the world and never buy another product with their logo on it. But if this gets mixed with those feelings and hate who don't own the game, my voice will never be heard and taken seriously.

[IanC]

Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Me as a valid customer, I have the right to smash their faces, scream my anger all over the world and never buy another product with their logo on it. But if this gets mixed with those feelings and hate who don't own the game, my voice will never be heard and taken seriously.

That doesn't make any sense to me. His point was that those of us who aren't buying SH5 are trying send a message to Ubi that they can't just dish out a bad quality game and expect it to be a success. You're saying I need to buy a copy in order to send that message? :doh:

[danlisa]

Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Wrong. He and others are allowed opinions on SH5 regardless of ownership. It's up to others to decide if they carry any weight. That's the entire point of a discussion board.

If you want UBI worship use the official game forum. Here at Subsim there is no censorship of opinion when it comes to the genre we are all here for.

[krashkart]

Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Me as a valid customer, I have the right to smash their faces, scream my anger all over the world and never buy another product with their logo on it. But if this gets mixed with those feelings and hate who don't own the game, my voice will never be heard and taken seriously.

Have you picked up on what RR is saying when he expresses his opinions? Here, I'll toss another chip at you: I don't own SH5, but just looking at what I've seen so far tells me a number of things. Number one is that it isn't worth the asking price in it's current state. If you've played the game and been frustrated by the most senseless of bugs that should have been fixed prior to release, you'll know what I've experienced in the past with similar "rush order" games. Furthermore, my knickers are all up in a twist because I was actually looking forward to SH5. The SH3 I currently play is awesome, but newer releases are supposed to be a major step forward, not a rip off. I'll be damned if I'm gonna shell out the clams for something that would probably detract from my game experience and ultimately my wallet. You see my line of thought there?

We have the right to our opinions here regardless of which side of the fence we're on. It's not just SH5 players that read these forums - there are plenty of us waiting in the wings for a glimmer of hope. As soon as we see that (if we do), we'll probably be joining the ranks as owners and players of Silent Hunter 5.

I know you want to stand up for your game, and I've been there plenty of times. But telling us to go away won't stop me or anyone else from making our own points - whether we own the game or not.

[Moeceefus]

Once you have paid your money for the game you have already sent the only message Ubi will ever listen to: cheat me again! Those of us who are jingling the money in our pockets, waiting to purchase a real submarine simulator that respects its customers as honest people at the least or at best as enthusiastic assets in the future sales of a great product are the only ones sending a message that goes beyond "cheat me more!"

Our message is "Respect us as customers, supporters, potential mini advertising agencies, each and every one of us. We are responsible for your success or failure and we certainly are advertising now. Don't buy this travesty."

Our message will be effective and final. The customer whose economic behavior is responsible and unyielding always wins. By the way, I have lots of posts in Ubi forums.



i've paid more for far worse. i happen to have good times with sh5. i dont feel cheated and i'm happy to support any company that is willing to take a hit making the niche games i enjoy so much. rock on sh5 :rock:

[Méo]

I don't suppose it's occurred to some of you making snide remarks about people who don't like the game yet still visit that they do so because they like this site and its community?

I've been around for quite a while now. I haven't bought SH5 and won't.

The other thing I don't do is flood the forum with posts about why not. For those who chose to buy it, I hope they enjoy it. I don't seek to detract from their enjoyment.

I'm equally happy to participate in discussions around 'realism' or 'improvements'. I don't see that I need to own the game to do that.

I could do without some people taking the view that I shouldn't post in a thread asking for my opinion simply because they don't like my opinion. Were I to take the same apporach, I'd be suggesting they F-off to sites where everyone is expected to express only ONE opinion (often those sites run by the publishers).

This community isn't like that. It benefits from a divergence of views. I suggest people would do well to remember that.

As an aside, a poll that allows multiple responses is all but useless for any form of analysis without a LOT of work, but it's probably pointless having that discussion.

Cheers

Well this type of post is always welcome since it is made with a mature tone.

Unfortunately, you're a minority here.

"So why then post here?"

The same goes here.

[Méo]

That doesn't make any sense to me. His point was that those of us who aren't buying SH5 are trying send a message to Ubi that they can't just dish out a bad quality game and expect it to be a success. You're saying I need to buy a copy in order to send that message? :doh:

If you want to send them a message, it would make more sense if you would post on their forums rather than here.

As someone already said: ''Complain to those who make the decisions, cuz the readers here don't''

[IanC]

If you want to send them a message, it would make more sense if you would post on their forums rather than here.

As someone already said: ''Complain to those who make the decisions, cuz the readers here don't''


I already sent the strongest message possible, by not giving them my 60$. I doubt the Ubi suits read the Ubi forums or take anything being said there seriously.



I just wonder for how long people who hate so much this game will feel the need to express their obsession.

And that makes me wonder, when somebody (who supposedly owns the game) posts only about 'the haters' and never about the actual game, just who is the obsessed one? :hmmm:

[Zedi]

I will never understand this attitude. Is like me entering in a Ferrari shop and start bitching about their car and claiming that my Porsche is way better than their red piece of crap so I will never buy a Ferrari. And? Who the *beep* care?!

I do not compare Ferrari nor Porsche with SH5, is just a quick example.. I really hate Ferrari, but I never expressed my opinion about it on their forums, shops or fan community. Is pointless and dumb.

Anyway, I will not continue to argue as seems like I'm the only one bothered by this stuff here. Carry on.

[Sailor Steve]

I will never understand this attitude. Is like me entering in a Ferrari shop and start bitching about their car and claiming that my Porsche is way better than their red piece of crap so I will never buy a Ferrari. And? Who the *beep* care?!

I do not compare Ferrari nor Porsche with SH5, is just a quick example.. I really hate Ferrari, but I never expressed my opinion about it on their forums, shops or fan community. Is pointless and dumb.

Anyway, I will not continue to argue as seems like I'm the only one bothered by this stuff here. Carry on.
We've alread had a thread comparing Silent Hunter to cars.:D

It's not a very good example. This is more like Porsche releasing a new car that has nothing but problems. Ninety percent of the people who bought it complain about it. So I post that my 1970 911 is way better than their new piece of crap. That's the better example.

That said, I want SH5 to succeed. And I wll buy it once the chains are gone, if that ever happens.

But saying people shouldn't be allowed to post their opinions is encouraging tyrrany. Saying you don't think they should post their opinions? I'll support that. You should be able to say anything you like.

[IanC]

I will never understand this attitude. Is like me entering in a Ferrari shop and start bitching about their car and claiming that my Porsche is way better than their red piece of crap so I will never buy a Ferrari.

No, it's much more like a Ferrari expert, lover and owner of previous models, going in a Ferrari shop and complaining because this new model is falling apart and not worthy of the name Ferrari.

[robbo180265]

No, it's much more like a Ferrari expert, lover and owner of previous models, going in a Ferrari shop and complaining because this new model is falling apart and not worthy of the name Ferrari.

I've always liked Aston Martin's myself:03:

[robbo180265]

Seriously though.

You can't stop people posting their opinions - that's just madness , the day that happens in Subsim I'm off.

The whole point of a forum is for people to discuss their differing opinions.

What ticks me off however, is certain people who make claims about the game I.E. bugged, flawed, unplayable etc etc without actually trying the game first.

In other words reporting hearsay as fact - that's what I object to.

[Yak]

Well, they obviously don't hate it as much as they claim, if they are viewing/posting in the SH5 board.

You have to wonder at the logic of these people at times.

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that we don't "hate" SH5, in fact we all would love to have SH5 and that is why people are so angry about the issues, in particular UPlay.

I find it sad on a supposedly mature forum like Subsim, that so many posters have adopted this attitude that because Ubi decided my money wasn't as good as yours and Australians by and large weren't worthy of playing their game and then threw me and thousands like me under the bus, you should drink their kool-aid and also say I have no right to post here about a genre of gaming I love and have loved for nearly two decades now.

Why? Because Ubi put in place a system where I can't play the game?

Why would I buy a game I cannot play for no reason other than someone says I'm not important enough for the privilege?

But then hey it is fitting that Ubisoft would discriminate against guys who want to spend just a little time and play a game when spending months on end in Afghanistan isn't it? Can't have us enjoying the same small luxuries as the keyboard warriors and internet tough-guys back home...

I hope you enjoy SH5 in your comfortable study in Europe, because the guys standing on the wall keeping your sorry arse safe can't.

[Zedi]

We've alread had a thread comparing Silent Hunter to cars.:D

It's not a very good example. This is more like Porsche releasing a new car that has nothing but problems. Ninety percent of the people who bought it complain about it. So I post that my 1970 911 is way better than their new piece of crap. That's the better example.

That said, I want SH5 to succeed. And I wll buy it once the chains are gone, if that ever happens.

But saying people shouldn't be allowed to post their opinions is encouraging tyrrany. Saying you don't think they should post their opinions? I'll support that. You should be able to say anything you like.

Oke, then let me put it in this way. I have a Ferrari and something is not right with it, just last day a redneck with a noname car managed to own me on the highway. So I come back to the shop to smash their heads because selling me a "bugged" car. But what a surprise.. the shop is full with Porsche fans who already set the shop in the flame and they are bitching about .. Ferrari. Why? Because they love to race, but they consider that Ferrari is not able to build a competitive sport car. O.O

My advice, give up on 1 or 2 burgers and buy the game. Yes, is that cheap now. Play it, test it then come back and post your opinion and what really bothers you and makes you game experience to be a bad one. I love SH5 and I would spend another 50 EUR on it if I should to do it for any reason. But it bothers me that is very bugged and most of all.. there is NONE who can fix it. And these idiots from Ubi don't give a frak about me, their legit customer :((

My simphaty and compassion for those who can't play the game because they don have a stable internet connection. But my compassion is because you guys don't have access to the internet in the 21 century, that's really sad.

[krashkart]

don't give a frak about me, their legit customer :((


That I can sympathize with. Been burned a few times, even found that one of my favorite titles was completely unsupported after some legalities took the game away from the devs (gold master, source code, everything). The publisher locked everything down and didn't even bother to put up a forum -- no ties to their customer base whatsoever. Needless to say, that game had died long before I ever found it on the store shelf. Quite obvious that the dev team was very much put out by the whole ordeal, too. :-?

[danlisa]

But it bothers me that is very bugged and most of all.. there is NO ONE who can fix it.

There are people who can fix the game in this community however, they can't legally. You see, the tool that created the SH5 files is available and usable, but without being a license holder you'd see yourself in court before you could scratch your butt, if you ever released a fix/altered file.

Which is another gripe of mine. The statement that "SH5 is the most moddable in the series" is laughable to say the least.:down:

[janh]

I will never understand this attitude. Is like me entering in a Ferrari shop and start bitching about their car and claiming that my Porsche is way better than their red piece of crap so I will never buy a Ferrari.

Now, it is a little different from your conclusion about the situation. If people that were loyal customers and bought the previous releases of SH, but now stay away, then Ubissoft will likely feel that. That is if there are fewer new gamers attracted to this game (maybe the targeted "casual/arcade gamers") then old hands staying away from it waiting for an improvement. And that is quite likely given the fact that SH is a niche type game. So if many people have voted with their walled so far, chances are Ubi may start to think the situation over. The major question is only: Will they attribute the finding to the right cause, or put it down to easy excuses like "economic downturn", "pirates" etc.? (Note that this discussion comes without a car: But assume that 50% of the Ferrari owners would in the future not buy another Ferrari anymore, for whatever reasons-- Could that be a signal?)

[robbo180265]

Now, it is a little different from your conclusion about the situation. If people that were loyal customers and bought the previous releases of SH, but now stay away, then Ubissoft will likely feel that. That is if there are fewer new gamers attracted to this game (maybe the targeted "casual/arcade gamers") then old hands staying away from it waiting for an improvement. And that is quite likely given the fact that SH is a niche type game. So if many people have voted with their walled so far, chances are Ubi may start to think the situation over. The major question is only: Will they attribute the finding to the right cause, or put it down to easy excuses like "economic downturn", "pirates" etc.? (Note that this discussion comes without a car: But assume that 50% of the Ferrari owners would in the future not buy another Ferrari anymore, for whatever reasons-- Could that be a signal?)

You see, that's what I've been saying all along. There have been loads of posters here who talk about the online protection, how wrong it is , how they're not going to (or can't) buy the game until it's removed - all of which I sympathise with.

Trouble is - how many of those same posters have taken the next step and actually told UBI how they feel ?

I know of 2.

It would take just a few minutes to e mail UBI and tell them exactly what's what - so why is no-one doing it? Until you contact UBI - they'll put the low sales down to it being a niche game , pirates , economic downturn, invaders from mars etc etc etc.

They don't even read their own forums - what makes you think they read ours?

[Zedi]

There are people who can fix the game in this community however, they can't legally. You see, the tool that created the SH5 files is available and usable, but without being a license holder you'd see yourself in court before you could scratch your butt, if you ever released a fix/altered file.

Which is another gripe of mine. The statement that "SH5 is the most moddable in the series" is laughable to say the least.:down:

So .. wait a minute. Then GWX for SH3 was something illegal.. or..?

[robbo180265]

Here - I'll make it easier for you guys:

UBISOFT
1st Floor, Chertsey Gate East,
London Street,
Chertsey, Surrey, KT16 8AP


Drop them a line and tell them how you feel. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain:up:

[danlisa]

So .. wait a minute. Then GWX for SH3 was something illegal.. or..?

:haha: Nope. SH3 & SH4 use a different SDK and, in most part, are open source creations. Therefore creating/developing tools for that platform for the mods released is no biggie at all. DAT format is easily createable using freely available tools.

SH5 however, is a completely different beast. The tool used to create the bulk of SH5 files is closed source and was always designed that way. The ONLY way to alter/read/tweak/create these files is by using the source code from the SDK. There's no way around that.

The SDK used for SH5 is utilised in many PC games and a HUGE amount of Console games. The reason? Because the studios know that the file structure can't be modified/altered and re-released. They like that security.

TBH, I reckon UBI went this path initially with the view to bring SH5 to consoles as the coding and architecture could be easily ported thanks to the SDK used. ;)

[Flopper]

Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Two things. First off, two of the seven poll questions begin with "I haven't bought this game" and secondly, :har:

[Frumpkis]

Seriously, people who don't own and play the game should be not allow to post no matter what. This is allowed only here, no other game community accept this attitude. If the legit owners complaint and bug report will be mixed with the haters, there is really no chance that the developers will take us seriously. The "feedbacks" here are almost 50% made by those who don't own or play the game.. disturbing. Even those who play the pirated game should have more right to post oppinions about SH5, no offence.

That's ridiculous. There are many here like me, who are tracking the progress of SH5 and haven't decided to buy it yet, due to the state it's in. What's more, some of us, like me, have been playing the precursor games like SHIII and SH4 for years. We have an investment of time and money in the series up to this point, as well as participation in the subsim community (although until this release, I was more active on the Ubi forum). For anyone who has played SH3 and SH4 extensively over the years, it's easy to make judgments based on hearing what others are experiencing with this release. And judgments naturally lead to public comments.

If there is any faint chance that Ubi is paying attention to what's said on forums like this, the people here who don't yet own SH5 might serve as leverage to continue the patch releases (and/or make a change in the DRM method). We're people with money in our pockets, waiting to buy the game. We can't be leverage for a better game, if we keep our collective mouths shut.

[OldFrenchy]

Despite my strong reservations about DRM I eventually did buy the game ($15 + SH) online. Even at that relatively small price I feel cheated.
What's the point of playing a game that doesn't really work?
The only thing going for this game is the visual panorama. It is fabulous. However, you can only ride on top of the sub for so long before you want to play it- and then it falls apart.
I am not just disappointed with the patch, I am angry. The continual delays, the false promises, and a result that marginally improves on the original. It is disgraceful, and a slap in the face to the purchasers who had faith in the company and the devs. The modders can only do so much, and if it is the company's policy to shove the product out the door half-finished expecting it to be cleaned up by the modders.....
I will take back my words if the company plans another patch to fix SH5, but I'm not holding my breath.
Too little, too late.

[robbo180265]

But have you contacted UBI and told them how you feel guys?

Otherwise - what's the point?

[OldFrenchy]

I have not contacted UBI directly, but I presume the devs watch these forums and provide feedback to the company. There again, I'm probably delusional.

[robbo180265]

I have not contacted UBI directly, but I presume the devs watch these forums and provide feedback to the company. There again, I'm probably delusional.

I certainly wouldn't assume that at all. I have contacted UBI and told them how unfair I think their online protection is, I've also had a good moan about their lack of customer support.

If you are unhappy with them - let them know, don't assume that they may read these threads because I doubt they do.

Doing nothing achieves nothing IMO.

[609_Avatar]

Doing nothing achieves nothing IMO.

Quite right sir.

[Frumpkis]

But have you contacted UBI and told them how you feel guys?

Otherwise - what's the point?

I'm not convinced that contacting Ubi by email or snail mail serves any purpose. First, how does one prove "intent to purchase" in an email? I can prove a positive (i.e game purchase) with my registration for SHIII and SH4, but how do I prove a negative... the fact that I'm holding my money back? I could easily just be another Angry Internet Man who doesn't like their current DRM, and is enjoying a bit of Ubi-bashing in my free time. I'm sure their PR departments have been flooded lately with people upset about the choices they've made recently with PC games, not just SH5 alone.

The one tangible message I can send, is not buying the game until it's patched to the point where I think I'd have fun playing it. My personal decision doesn't mean much, but along with everyone else holding back on buying the game, I think it does send a real message.

[609_Avatar]

I'm not convinced that contacting Ubi by email or snail mail serves any purpose. First, how does one prove "intent to purchase" in an email? I can prove a positive (i.e game purchase) with my registration for SHIII and SH4, but how do I prove a negative... the fact that I'm holding my money back? I could easily just be another Angry Internet Man who doesn't like their current DRM, and is enjoying a bit of Ubi-bashing in my free time. I'm sure their PR departments have been flooded lately with people upset about the choices they've made recently with PC games, not just SH5 alone.

The one tangible message I can send, is not buying the game until it's patched to the point where I think I'd have fun playing it. My personal decision doesn't mean much, but along with everyone else holding back on buying the game, I think it does send a real message.

It serves the purpose of insuring they hear your voice and the reason why you're not buying the product in question. Just not buying it will leave them to decide for themselves what that reason may be. I totally agree that not buying it sends them a message but is it the one you want? Make sure by telling them the reason in addition to not buying it. Make sense?

[kylania]

Doing nothing achieves nothing IMO.

To paraphrase the Edmund Burke quote from one of the loading screens - "All that is necessary for the forces of Ubisoft to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."

[robbo180265]

I'm not convinced that contacting Ubi by email or snail mail serves any purpose. First, how does one prove "intent to purchase" in an email? I can prove a positive (i.e game purchase) with my registration for SHIII and SH4, but how do I prove a negative... the fact that I'm holding my money back? I could easily just be another Angry Internet Man who doesn't like their current DRM, and is enjoying a bit of Ubi-bashing in my free time. I'm sure their PR departments have been flooded lately with people upset about the choices they've made recently with PC games, not just SH5 alone.

The one tangible message I can send, is not buying the game until it's patched to the point where I think I'd have fun playing it. My personal decision doesn't mean much, but along with everyone else holding back on buying the game, I think it does send a real message.

For goodness sake look at the logic of what you've just posted.

If you don't contact them they will never know - it really is that simple. It takes no more time than posting here for crying out loud.

Holding back your money just convinces them that no-one is interested in the genre anymore and the genre will die. Telling them why you are not buying their game at least proves that you are interested but want things to change before you buy.

You have no right to post here about the problems IMO, if you are too lazy to contact them.

[janh]

Holding back your money just convinces them that no-one is interested in the genre anymore and the genre will die.

If they concluded that without looking at the details and searching for the true reasons then they'd be pretty poor analysts... But it would be hard for them to separate what happened and easy to attribute it to the general economic situation, competition, piracy etc. However, taking this as a sign that the genre is dead would clearly be a short fused conclusion. I guess the future will show whether Ubisoft learns from this fiasko (though believe plenty of you guys already said the same after previous releases, without changing the trend at all...)

[Nisgeis]

The one tangible message I can send, is not buying the game until it's patched to the point where I think I'd have fun playing it.

How are Ubisoft to know when the game would be at a point where you, personally, would consider it to be fun to play, or even know that's why you weren't buying. Perhaps they just think you died of old age and that's why you didn't buy the game. Or perhaps you are in a coma, but otherwise would have bought the game if you possibly could, so no problem there then. Or perhaps they don't know you exist at all?

For added emphasis, perhaps you could not buy the game twice. Perhaps not buying it three times would send a much more powerful message. Why stop at not buying it three times, when you could just as easily and with no expenediture, or even effort, not buy the game four times?

My personal decision doesn't mean much, but along with everyone else holding back on buying the game, I think it does send a real message.

I find it strange that you won't actually send a real message in an email, but you think that doing nothing at all is actually sending a real message. Why not just send a real message, by actually sending a real message? I know it's much more difficult than not doing anything at all, but you know... it's just an email, it's almost like posting in the forum, except... it might actually do some good by letting the people that have the power know how you feel.

[robbo180265]

If they concluded that without looking at the details and searching for the true reasons then they'd be pretty poor analysts... But it would be hard for them to separate what happened and easy to attribute it to the general economic situation, competition, piracy etc. However, taking this as a sign that the genre is dead would clearly be a short fused conclusion.

Erm - this is UBI?

and because they don't have crystal balls?

[robbo180265]

To paraphrase the Edmund Burke quote from one of the loading screens - "All that is necessary for the forces of Ubisoft to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."

:har:

I am so sick of people with genuine gripes being too lazy to do the right thing.

UBISOFT
1st Floor, Chertsey Gate East,
London Street,
Chertsey, Surrey, KT16 8AP

Do it now!

[Nisgeis]

:har:

I am so sick of people with genuine gripes being too lazy to do the right thing.

UBISOFT
1st Floor, Chertsey Gate East,
London Street,
Chertsey, Surrey, KT16 8AP

Do it now!

God, that's like... I'd have to print out a letter and put it in an envelope and stuff. Who's got time for that when I could be spamming more Ubi-abuse-posts on the wrong forum?

Have you got an email address? I looked for like 0 seconds, which is like almost as long as google spent looking, but a bit less and I couldn't find one. so I gave up yeah.

Email would be easier.

On the other hand, you can't email a physical lemon to Ubi, so why not post a lemon to Ubi? A lemon for a lemon - sounds fair?

[robbo180265]

God, that's like... I'd have to print out a letter and put it in an envelope and stuff. Who's got time for that when I could be spamming more Ubi-abuse-posts on the wrong forum?

Have you got an email address? I looked for like 0 seconds, which is like almost as long as google spent looking, but a bit less and I couldn't find one. so I gave up yeah.

Email would be easier.


It would be funny if it wasn't true:nope:

[Nordmann]

God, that's like... I'd have to print out a letter and put it in an envelope and stuff. Who's got time for that when I could be spamming more Ubi-abuse-posts on the wrong forum?

Have you got an email address? I looked for like 0 seconds, which is like almost as long as google spent looking, but a bit less and I couldn't find one. so I gave up yeah.

Email would be easier.

Heh, that pretty much sums it up. Sitting back and refusing to buy the game achieves bugger all, Ubi will simply chalk this up to a niche market, and move on to something else.

You need to let them know why you are not going to buy the game, stating your reasons clearly and without ranting. This is the only 'feedback' Ubi are likely to notice.

[Méo]

And that makes me wonder, when somebody (who supposedly owns the game) posts only about 'the haters' and never about the actual game, just who is the obsessed one? :hmmm:

Ho sure!! how dare did I post one reply for every 100 posts I saw about SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me...

[robbo180265]

Ho sure!! how dare did I post one reply for every 100 posts I saw about SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me...

I would actually have more respect for the posters of "SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me..." if they got up off their lazy asses and actually contacted UBI and told them why "SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me..."

;)

[Moeceefus]

i almost didn't buy it. i almost fell into all the negativity. i could have been one of those who bashes a game i've never played based on hearsay, but then it occured to me that i love sub sims. i thought, how bad can it be? it cant be any worse than sh3 or 4 was on release right? i bought it and you know, i was right. its not bad at all. its far better than 3 and 4 were on release.

i wont deny there are some minor issues, but certainly nothing game breaking. honestly i have yet to expierience even half the bugs i have read about. its very playable as is and even better with mods. i could have jumped on the bandwagon but then i never would have truly known. its one thing to voice concerns over a game you're considering, but until you have at least played it a bit, you should hold off on outright bashing it.

there is no substitute for personal expierience when you are deciding whats right for you. :salute:

[Méo]

I would actually have more respect for the posters of "SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me..." if they got up off their lazy asses and actually contacted UBI and told them why "SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me..."

;)

Agreed

...and don't get me wrong.

I've already seen many movie critics being very hard, but they didn't spam and didn't make any insults or personal attacks.

What I mean is that a critic can be constructive even if it's really hard, but I guess you and I know very well that spamming the same insults over and over and over and over again won't change a damn thing.

----

BTW, if they would that:
" if they got up off their lazy asses and actually contacted UBI and told them why "SH5 is the worst thing that ever happened to me..."

It wouldn't be very ''cool''

[mikeydredd]

Following on the reasoning that if you don't own something you can't dislike it I wonder if NOT owning something means you can't LIKE it either?

I wonder how much Lucy Pinder would cost?

Or a Harley Davidson? (Already got one of them).

I dislike Hondas but I'm not allowed to say that, as I don't own one.

As we say in my part of the world - cobblers.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[Méo]

I dislike Hondas but I'm not allowed to say that, as I don't own one.

It's not about ''you're not allowed''

It's about saying it (or spamming) over and over again every days for months to come (it's been almost 3 months since SH5 was release and even more since we know about DRM issue).

[robbo180265]

Agreed

...and don't get me wrong.

I've already seen many movie critics being very hard, but they didn't spam and didn't make any insults or personal attacks.

What I mean is that a critic can be constructive even if it's really hard, but I guess you and I know very well that spamming the same insults over and over and over and over again won't change a damn thing.





It just makes me angry that even though they have valid reasons for being angry they wont do anything about it. I've mailed UBI with my concerns - why can't they?

What do they hope to achieve by doing nothing?

[kylania]

I dislike Hondas but I'm not allowed to say that, as I don't own one.

Are you going to Honda dealerships and Honda Driver Groups and constantly telling them how bad their cars are and how Honda Financial's terms of service are so wrong and that you'd never buy their products and are proud you haven't?

What would be said about a person that did that for three months? :DL

[Méo]

It just makes me angry that even though they have valid reasons for being angry they wont do anything about it. I've mailed UBI with my concerns - why can't they?

Once again I agree, it's true, they have valid reasons for being angry ( I almost forgot, they can be so annoying...)

If that would not be for all the spamming, immature comments and insults, I would be on their side.

What do they hope to achieve by doing nothing?

They are probably gonna reply to you that they are not doing nothing...

[Nisgeis]

What do they hope to achieve by doing nothing?

I've never bought the argument that doing nothing achieves anything. I've never bought that argument and I never will, yet it still persists.

I guess it just goes to show that not buying something, doesn't change it.

[mikeydredd]

I'm not angry at all. I don't own the game.

I seems to me the angriest people on this forum are those who have bought the game.

Can't say I blame them.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[Frumpkis]

Holding back your money just convinces them that no-one is interested in the genre anymore and the genre will die.

And going ahead and buying a game that one knows is seriously flawed on release, also sends a message to the game company -- that the genre is still alive, but the audience no longer cares about quality and will accept anything. We're not going to get anywhere arguing about who is on higher moral ground here.

Look, I understand the counter-arguments and I sympathize to an extent. But I've spent plenty of time in the past trying to work directly with game devs and give feedback (including some very frustrating beta tester experiences). I'm through with that. The only thing that matters to the people who make the decisions that we most care about, like whether the game is ready for release or not, how much to patch aftermarket, DRM considerations etc., are the bean counters tracking bottom line sales. Refuse to buy crappy games, and there will be fewer crappy games on the market. No amount of email communication with the game company is going to change that basic fact.

[THE_MASK]

We need a campaign rewrite to fix a lot of stuff . Like an RSRD . Then we will see how much better SH5 is .

[Nisgeis]

I dislike Hondas but I'm not allowed to say that, as I don't own one.

Are you going to Honda dealerships and Honda Driver Groups and constantly telling them how bad their cars are and how Honda Financial's terms of service are so wrong and that you'd never buy their products and are proud you haven't?

What would be said about a person that did that for three months? :DL

I'm not angry at all. I don't own the game.

I seems to me the angriest people on this forum are those who have bought the game.

Can't say I blame them.

Dredd :arrgh!:

What's your answer to the question posed?

[Nisgeis]

The only thing that matters to the people who make the decisions that we most care about<SNIP> are the bean counters tracking bottom line sales. Refuse to buy crappy games, and there will be fewer crappy games on the market. No amount of email communication with the game company is going to change that basic fact.

OK, let's say that that's true for a moment. Where does posting repeatedly on a forum that a game doesn't meet your expectations come into that equation? If direct email has no effect, indirect complaining on an unrelated forum won't either correct? So... your logic says that posting complaints in any way is pointless.

[Méo]

OK, let's say that that's true for a moment. Where does posting repeatedly on a forum that a game doesn't meet your expectations come into that equation? If direct email has no effect, indirect complaining on an unrelated forum won't either correct? So... your logic says that posting complaints in any way is pointless.

touché ;)

[V.C. Sniper]

And your 'Expert' opinion is based on what?
:hmmm:
Don't own the Game.
Don't play it.

Which puts you in the catagory of,
Hmmmmmmmm..........

If you don't own it or play it?
Your opinion means didaly squat.

Some of us do own it and do play it.
So we are granted rights to whine and complain!
It's in the EULA!
Oh!
You don't have that so are not aware of the Whiners/Moaners Clause.
My mistake.
:haha:
lol u mad?

[Sailor Steve]

Oke, then let me put it in this way. I have a Ferrari and something is not right with it, just last day a redneck with a noname car managed to own me on the highway. So I come back to the shop to smash their heads because selling me a "bugged" car. But what a surprise.. the shop is full with Porsche fans who already set the shop in the flame and they are bitching about .. Ferrari. Why? Because they love to race, but they consider that Ferrari is not able to build a competitive sport car. O.O
Still a bad analogy. As I said, what you have is a bunch of Ferrari owners not in the shop, but writing the car magazines that they love Ferraris but the newest model doesn't drive straight, has bad brakes and breaks down every 50 miles. And you say that people who love Ferraris but won't buy the car because of this have no right to also write to the car mags and complain.

My advice, give up on 1 or 2 burgers and buy the game. Yes, is that cheap now. Play it, test it then come back and post your opinion and what really bothers you and makes you game experience to be a bad one.
I would love to do just that, but I won't until the you-know-what is removed. That said, I'm not complaining about the game, and I will buy it as soon as I can. I'm just saying your argument is a poor one.

[Sailor Steve]

Are you going to Honda dealerships and Honda Driver Groups and constantly telling them how bad their cars are and how Honda Financial's terms of service are so wrong and that you'd never buy their products and are proud you haven't?

What would be said about a person that did that for three months? :DL
Same thing as I said above. I don't like shooter games, and I don't buy them. And no, I don't spam forums complaining that I don't like them. But if I did like Hondas and their latest model was a rolling junkheap, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be complaining. To you, to everybody else, and most of all to Honda themselves. And no, I don't have UBI's email address, but I did sign the big petitions that were sent to them (I hope).

And no, I'm not trying to spam anything - just answering your arguments; which I happen to agree with for the most part.:sunny:

[edit] I just looked at their website. They have addresses for corporate offices in every nation, but no email.

[Nisgeis]

Still a bad analogy. As I said, what you have is a bunch of Ferrari owners not in the shop, but writing the car magazines that they love Ferraris but the newest model doesn't drive straight, has bad brakes and breaks down every 50 miles. And you say that people who love Ferraris but won't buy the car because of this have no right to also write to the car mags and complain.

I disagree that someone who hasn't bought a product has a right to complain about its poor performance. I think they should be able to say that they won't be buying it because of the perception they have that the product performs poorly, but they shouldn't be complaining if they haven't bought it. They also shouldn't be providing feedback about what is wrong with the car third hand, if they have never driven it.

[FanGav]

And going ahead and buying a game that one knows is seriously flawed on release, also sends a message to the game company -- that the genre is still alive, but the audience no longer cares about quality and will accept anything. We're not going to get anywhere arguing about who is on higher moral ground here.

Look, I understand the counter-arguments and I sympathize to an extent. But I've spent plenty of time in the past trying to work directly with game devs and give feedback (including some very frustrating beta tester experiences). I'm through with that. The only thing that matters to the people who make the decisions that we most care about, like whether the game is ready for release or not, how much to patch aftermarket, DRM considerations etc., are the bean counters tracking bottom line sales. Refuse to buy crappy games, and there will be fewer crappy games on the market. No amount of email communication with the game company is going to change that basic fact.

^^^This is how i see things as well.
My plan is to wait for the sim to be fixed, either by ubi " I'm a half glass fill kind of guy" or the modders. Buy that time the game will be in the bargain bin so the company will make very very little if anything from their "beta release", and there will be recorded another unit sale to help keep the genre alive.
To sum up:When I buy SH5 Ubi won't make money from me for releasing crap, Bean counters sad. They will know I'm here and love sub sims, 1 unit sold.

[Frumpkis]

OK, let's say that that's true for a moment. Where does posting repeatedly on a forum that a game doesn't meet your expectations come into that equation? If direct email has no effect, indirect complaining on an unrelated forum won't either correct? So... your logic says that posting complaints in any way is pointless.

Simple, it's a reality check. I'm waiting to see if the game is worth buying yet or not, and it may be that some things that bother me aren't as bad as I think they are. If you look at what I've posted so far about SH5, one of my main concerns was the quality of the AI. I've received mixed opinions about that, so I'm still on the fence. I haven't been posting that many actual complaints about the game (do you have me confused with someone else?) and I haven't been one of those screaming about the DRM, because I think I can live with it, if the game is worth it. Posting my concerns about the game is simply a way to take the pulse of fellow gamers as a reality check, and see if I'm getting a good sense of the current state of the game.

[Moeceefus]

Simple, it's a reality check. I'm waiting to see if the game is worth buying yet or not, and it may be that some things that bother me aren't as bad as I think they are. If you look at what I've posted so far about SH5, one of my main concerns was the quality of the AI. I've received mixed opinions about that, so I'm still on the fence. I haven't been posting that many actual complaints about the game (do you have me confused with someone else?) and I haven't been one of those screaming about the DRM, because I think I can live with it, if the game is worth it. Posting my concerns about the game is simply a way to take the pulse of fellow gamers as a reality check, and see if I'm getting a good sense of the current state of the game.



its totally worth it imo.

[Nisgeis]

Simple, it's a reality check. I'm waiting to see if the game is worth buying yet or not, and it may be that some things that bother me aren't as bad as I think they are.

Reading about the game and playing the game are very different. I read about the game whilst I waited for it to arrive and when I finally did play it, it was nothing like I had come to expect, based on the comments I had read.

If you look at what I've posted so far about SH5, one of my main concerns was the quality of the AI. I've received mixed opinions about that, so I'm still on the fence. I haven't been posting that many actual complaints about the game (do you have me confused with someone else?)

No, I haven't got you confused with someone else. I'm just disagreeing with your point, because I think that actually contacting a company and telling them what you think is better than doing nothing at all. Direct complaints will do more good than indirect complaints as well, so it is not just a case of not buying the game and that's it.

and I haven't been one of those screaming about the DRM, because I think I can live with it, if the game is worth it. Posting my concerns about the game is simply a way to take the pulse of fellow gamers as a reality check, and see if I'm getting a good sense of the current state of the game.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Some say that the AI was fine in the original version, where it got harder over time, others say that it was broken, regardless of the date, others say that the patch has improved the AI and others say that it has not. How are you going to seperate all of that out and get the true picture? Throw in the fact that some who will be complaining won't have played the game and will have misunderstood the situation and will be giving false information on top of all the different opinions (see the campaign goals for an example of that) and that will make it harder to get a true sense of the state of the game.

[7thSeal]

Console or not Which means best entertainment for the cost, for the developer and a bit more for the receiver... Don't think for one second that money makers haven't already considered your 'opinion'. :)

They place their bets on the easiest path to follow with least amount of cost.... and yours?

[Rockin Robbins]

Wrong, you are not their customer nor a SH5 player so you're not entitled to have a valid opinion about something you actually don't own. Period.

Me as a valid customer, I have the right to smash their faces, scream my anger all over the world and never buy another product with their logo on it. But if this gets mixed with those feelings and hate who don't own the game, my voice will never be heard and taken seriously.

See you've got that totally wrong. I own copies of SH3 and SH4. My purchase of Ubi products and production of value enhancing content for them makes me a legitimate poster. (produced any mods or tutorials Magnum? What have YOU added to the value of Ubi products? No, huh? Nothing, huh?) Therefore I am a vested customer, already demonstrating my ability and willingness to purchase Ubi products and enhance their value to Ubi when they meet my requirements. SH5 falls short. Very short. Jingle! Jingle!

See, they hear that message. They know who I am. They know about my contributions to the SH4 world. They will either respond to my jingle and make money or not and publish console shoot-em-ups with whatever Sword of Damocles DRM they think is appropriate for people willing to pay to be abused.

After they make the wrong decision we will get the submarine simulation we need. After they make the right decision we will get the submarine simulation we need. Either way, withholding the money wins.

On the other hand, paying the money is rewarding their behavior so far and is in no way an encouragement to change. And the day they pull the plug on their 3 lousy servers, you have nothing but a drink coaster and wasted hard drive space. For that reason it doesn't even matter how good the game is.

[Frumpkis]

Reading about the game and playing the game are very different. I read about the game whilst I waited for it to arrive and when I finally did play it, it was nothing like I had come to expect, based on the comments I had read.

I would normally agree with you, except that here we're dealing with code from SH3 and SH4 that has been substantially re-purposed for the current version. I can recognize some of the things that have carried over, like a certain hydrophone operator who would never make it aboard a real WWII naval vessel, because he won't follow orders and report a contact that can be clearly heard through the 'phones.

No, I haven't got you confused with someone else. I'm just disagreeing with your point, because I think that actually contacting a company and telling them what you think is better than doing nothing at all. Direct complaints will do more good than indirect complaints as well, so it is not just a case of not buying the game and that's it.On what are you basing the assertion that "actually contacting a company and telling them what you think is better than doing nothing at all"? Sorry, but that just hasn't been my experience in 20+ years of PC gaming, including working very closely as an inside beta tester for a few games. I think I can recognize companies that respond a certain way, or who don't respond.... and I think Ubi is one of the non-responders.

To put that a different way.... if Ubi ever decides to drop the requirement for a constant Internet connection, do you think that will be due to massed email complaints? Or will it be because the bean counters have decided the game is far enough past the initial retail window, and into bargain bin/Steam discount status, and they need to milk a little more income out of the game? You can fire off all the emails you want, but it doesn't affect a basic bottom-line decision making process like that. At that point, they're only interested in people who haven't bought the game, not the opinions of those who already bought it!

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Some say that the AI was fine in the original version, where it got harder over time, others say that it was broken, regardless of the date, others say that the patch has improved the AI and others say that it has not. How are you going to seperate all of that out and get the true picture? Throw in the fact that some who will be complaining won't have played the game and will have misunderstood the situation and will be giving false information on top of all the different opinions (see the campaign goals for an example of that) and that will make it harder to get a true sense of the state of the game.Well, again, so much of this is familiar from SH3 and SH4 that it's not that hard to form a picture of the game status. For example, convoys that go totally chaotic after an attack, or aircraft flying in the middle of the night very early in the war with no radar or navaids... yep, very familiar.

[longam]

With DW UI and patch 1.2 it better then ever. Loving it.

[Sharkbait24]

Unfortunately, it's bugged, it lags, and it's just not as good as SH4. I will continue playing Wolves of the Pacific.

[Moeceefus]

Unfortunately, it's bugged, it lags, and it's just not as good as SH4. I will continue playing Wolves of the Pacific.


fortunately, i've seen few bugs and no lag, and its just better than sh4. sh4 is still bug ridden and laggy. i will continue playing battle of the atlantic.

[U-Bones]

I don't love it. I did buy it. Every other option rang true to me.

[Sailor Steve]

I disagree that someone who hasn't bought a product has a right to complain about its poor performance.
I agree to a point, which is why I rarely post in these threads. I lodged my complaint about DRM when it happened, and that is a legitimate complaint that I only repeat when forced to. As to how the game plays, that doesn't keep me from buying it, and I will when I can, bugs or not. And then you won't hear me complaining much, because I'll be too busy trying to help fix what I don't like.

People who know me from the General Topics forum know that I usually don't get take sides too much, but mostly like to point out when someone's argument is flawed. And that's why I entered this one - because the car arguments are bad reasoning. I agree that it's annoying when people complain about things they don't like but don't actually play them, yet nobody complains when I cheer for this or that mod, even though I don't own the game.

I'm not one complaining about the patch or anything else. That said, you can argue that people shouldn't post here if they don't own it, but the idea that they should be banned from posting here is a bad one. If any one person makes too big a habit of spamming here or anywhere else, Neal and his staff will warn them, and take further measures if need be. Until then, argue all you like but don't call for exclusivism in a forum. It's bad for the liver.

Oh, and I agree about contacting UBI. Something is always better than nothing, and posting here is nothing as far as they are concerned. The devs sometimes read and even post here, but the people who run things? I'm betting not.

[Zachstar]

Complete and utter fiasco and no will not be buying it until it reaches 10USD or so.

Ubisoft continues to fail and fail and fail.

[SloppyMk27]

I don't know how else to say it but, they can't fix the game with bandaids. It is so much more than the game itself that is broken but, the confidence and respect from SH3 and SH4 players of all kinds who looked forward to SH5 and received the slap in the face from Ubisoft by giving us a half a game and DRM Service to make for damn sure we (the legitimate buyers) paid for it and also to chase off the very few game crackers out there. Bad move by Ubisoft :down:. I would have gladly waited another year for SH5 to come out so they could make the game the way it should be. I'm not blaming the programers. I suspect the game was rushed out to the stores by corporate staff when the programers were trying to make this game much better than it is. That's just my theroy. I keep seeing more and more retail products that appear to have started with a neat idea and then rushed to whatever was deemed close enough to being done and then be put into production with no thought of the consumers in mind.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. ~ That phrase was originated by Dennis Miller, but it's one I agree with.

SloppyMk27

[robbo180265]

To put that a different way.... if Ubi ever decides to drop the requirement for a constant Internet connection, do you think that will be due to massed email complaints? Or will it be because the bean counters have decided the game is far enough past the initial retail window, and into bargain bin/Steam discount status, and they need to milk a little more income out of the game? You can fire off all the emails you want, but it doesn't affect a basic bottom-line decision making process like that. At that point, they're only interested in people who haven't bought the game, not the opinions of those who already bought it!



If there are no massed email complaints then I doubt UBI will drop the DRM. I still can't understand the logic of not writing to the suits (I.E. the people in charge) and letting them know how you feel.

IMO you have it right in the part I've bolded , however I do believe that they would only be interested if you tell them why you are not buying their game.

Why not cover all bases and write to them if you feel as strongly as you appear to? I've done it , it took me only a few minutes and the cost of a stamp - how hard is that?

[jxyn]

After playing SH4 and now this game I've found this version too unstable to play and I'm very disappointed with it.

Pretty much a fiasco from my POV.

I've posted a query thread about CTDs, I'm wondering if anyone might have some knowledge about what may be bringing these about. If I can't fix this I might then remove the game.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1391907#post1391907

Thanks in advance.

[JScones]

Here - I'll make it easier for you guys:

UBISOFT
1st Floor, Chertsey Gate East,
London Street,
Chertsey, Surrey, KT16 8AP


Drop them a line and tell them how you feel. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain:up:
Why waste time writing to London? You might as well just whine here. No, much better to go straight to HQ:

Ubisoft Entertainment SA
Attn: Mr Yves Guillemot, CEO
28, rue Armand Carrel
93108 Montreuil-sous-Bois Cedex
France

Or call or fax:
P: +33 (1) 48 18 50 00 (switchboard)
P: +33 (1) 48 18 55 00
F: +33 (1) 48 57 07 41
F: +33 (1) 48 18 52 82

I won't post direct employee email addresses - I'm not sure if the addresses are publicly available.

Of course, you have about as much chance of getting through direct to the CEO as you have winning the lottery without buying a ticket, but you may just feel better...

[danurve]

I see that about 25% have voted as I did.
I'm suprised, figgured the haven't and not buy it crowd #'s would be less. Not sure if being stubborn is a blessing but I've come here still in hopes that Ubi would have caved by now, but I'm loosing faith in that fast. Maybe I'm a minority about it but damn them for a policy that keeps me from enjoying the bugs like the other 70% here Þ. That's ok summer's up soon and there's tons of **** to do nowhere near my PC.
Good luck with the bugs, hope the issues that seem to be stomping the game get resolved for those who wish to enjoy it.

http://pathfinderfishandgame.com/images/drm_turd.jpg

[naval_noob]

Well while I have lost all faith in SH5 it did do one thing for me. It turned me on to sh3 and sh4. So all hope is not lost. I have since unistalled sh5 from my computer though.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I see that about 25% have voted as I did.
I'm suprised, figgured the haven't and not buy it crowd #'s would be less. Not sure if being stubborn is a blessing but I've come here still in hopes that Ubi would have caved by now, but I'm loosing faith in that fast. Maybe I'm a minority about it but damn them for a policy that keeps me from enjoying the bugs like the other 70% here Þ. That's ok summer's up soon and there's tons of **** to do nowhere near my PC.
Good luck with the bugs, hope the issues that seem to be stomping the game get resolved for those who wish to enjoy it.

http://pathfinderfishandgame.com/images/drm_turd.jpg

Nah, all is not lost Danurve. Remember how long it took to have starforce dealt with? (IIRC it was a couple of years.)

Of all the things wrong with SH5 (and there are MANY things wrong with it) the only true show-stopper in my opinion is the DRM.

The DRM has to go... and I believe that it, and other such paying customer-punishing intrusive measures will eventually go the way of the dodo bird.

[robbo180265]

Why waste time writing to London? You might as well just whine here. No, much better to go straight to HQ:

Ubisoft Entertainment SA
Attn: Mr Yves Guillemot, CEO
28, rue Armand Carrel
93108 Montreuil-sous-Bois Cedex
France

Or call or fax:
P: +33 (1) 48 18 50 00 (switchboard)
P: +33 (1) 48 18 55 00
F: +33 (1) 48 57 07 41
F: +33 (1) 48 18 52 82

I won't post direct employee email addresses - I'm not sure if the addresses are publicly available.

Of course, you have about as much chance of getting through direct to the CEO as you have winning the lottery without buying a ticket, but you may just feel better...

That's a damn useful post - thanks mate I'll draft a letter up right now:up:

[robbo180265]

Nah, all is not lost Danurve. Remember how long it took to have starforce dealt with? (IIRC it was a couple of years.)

Of all the things wrong with SH5 (and there are MANY things wrong with it) the only true show-stopper in my opinion is the DRM.

The DRM has to go... and I believe that it, and other such paying customer-punishing intrusive measures will eventually go the way of the dodo bird.

I totally agree:up:

[Brag]

I totally agree:up:

Me too! The OSP DRM is the enemy. Totally unacceptable. :salute:

[609_Avatar]

Of all the things wrong with SH5 (and there are MANY things wrong with it) the only true show-stopper in my opinion is the DRM.

The DRM has to go... and I believe that it, and other such paying customer-punishing intrusive measures will eventually go the way of the dodo bird.

I agree! From your lips (fingers) to UBI's ears. Let's hope that will be true and sooner rather than later as I would like to purchase this game.

[Yak]

While I applaud your efforts to do something, people on this site sem to be stuck in 1996 and think that Ubisoft will actually read your angry emails and letters.

If you think that and you bought SH5 you're just a fool twice over.

So assuming you do write a nicely worded letter explaining in clear, logical reasons, do you think that 1. Anybody in position to make decisions on company wide corporate policy will even know, yet alone care?
And 2. do you think yours won't be drowned out by a thousand 'OMFG Teh Azazinz Kr33d nd SPl1ntR Ce11 G@mez t0taLLy SuXX0rs cos 0f Uplay ROFLCOPTER BBQ' emails?

Wake up...

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well Yak, given the alternative that you suggest is to give up, adopt a defeatist view, and simply accept 'death by ROO ROO' without lubrication...

... Making a lot of noise has the potential to change things for the better.

[Holdit]

The obsession with DRM you mean? They'll probably never get over it, unfortunately.

I hope they don't. That kind of nonsense is something to be fought, not just passively sucked up.

Holdit

[tomoose]

....and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass;

I'm using SH3 with GWX3, what is SH5 bringing to the table that would make it worth switching?

[Holdit]

We have the right to our opinions here regardless of which side of the fence we're on. It's not just SH5 players that read these forums - there are plenty of us waiting in the wings for a glimmer of hope. As soon as we see that (if we do), we'll probably be joining the ranks as owners and players of Silent Hunter 5..

Quite right. It sends a clear message to Ubisoft that, in spite of all, people still want to pay for a decent sim. They just need to be given a reason to buy. "Make me want to give you my money...it's here...waiting...". And the message for any potential subsim developer who happens to float by is also clear: there are lots of people here fed up with Ubisoft but who are very keen to hand over their money for a good sim. Not much chance of either of those scenarios if the forum just consists of happy campers guzzling down the kool-aid.

Holdit

[Nisgeis]

That said, you can argue that people shouldn't post here if they don't own it, but the idea that they should be banned from posting here is a bad one. If any one person makes too big a habit of spamming here or anywhere else, Neal and his staff will warn them, and take further measures if need be. Until then, argue all you like but don't call for exclusivism in a forum. It's bad for the liver.

I don't know if you are using 'you' in the sense of 'one', but if you mean me personally, then I've never said that people should be banned and I didn't argue that they shouldn't post here. I've just been pointing out that if people want to do something and are serious about changing it, they should contact Ubisoft. Posting here, if the reason for the post is to complain to Ubisoft, is pretty pointless.

For those that think contacting Ubisoft won't make any difference, I say that they still post here, even though it won't change anything, so why not contact Ubi as well? What is there to lose? It won't make things worse.

[Sailor Steve]

It wasn't meant personally for you. As I said I agree - direct contact is more effective than just whining here.

[Bleh]

I got my cpy of SH5 this morning. Installed and auto updated without issue. Got into the game and started a career. After the training stuff, i changed my realism to 77% (Only things unticked are external cameras, no contact updates and no stabilisation).

Started the patrol off the East coast of the UK, spending a little time during the trip there to familiarise myself with the TDC (which i couldnt figure out until my first contact). I really dont like how i have to lock onto the ship before i can give the TDC info, but im sure theres a mod for that :P

Sunk 2 transports/freighters off the East coast, then headed for home. On the way back i found a small merchant and finished him off with my remaining torps. The game was looking very nice aside from a few niggly things i dont like about the UI.

Then i CTD'd. I wasnt sure why, and i read somewhere about the save online feature causing it. So i disabled this, and loaded my game up, then saved it locally straight away, deleting all other saves. Seemed to have fixed it... i docked in Kiel about 10 mins ago :)

Thoroughly enjoyed my first hour on SH5, regardless of any bugs which might crop up. Now to find some nice mods :D Things can only get better :P

[scrapser]

I'm waiting for Ubisoft to come out with a game version of the TV series, "Voyage to See What's on the Bottom"...should be awesome.

[mikeydredd]

What's your answer to the question posed?

A: As far as I'm aware Subsim isn't a dealership or franchise of UbiSoft (although judging by some of the posts you could be mistaken for thinking it is) but a forum where everybody's opinion is welcomed as long as you abide by the rules.

B: I haven't been constantly posting about anything for 3 months - you must be thinking of someone else.

C: This poll includes 2 specific answers for people such as myself who haven't bought this game so it is entirely legitimate to discus why I have come to that decision here. Certainly can't be described as spamming or hysteria.

D: I told a tiny little fib - I do own a Honda. It was a bit of an in-joke and just shows you shouldn't believe everything you read on the interweb.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[robbo180265]

D: I told a tiny little fib - I do own a Honda. It was a bit of an in-joke and just shows you shouldn't believe everything you read on the interweb.

Dredd :arrgh!:

:har:

[Nisgeis]

A: As far as I'm aware Subsim isn't a dealership or franchise of UbiSoft (although judging by some of the posts you could be mistaken for thinking it is) but a forum where everybody's opinion is welcomed as long as you abide by the rules.

You're absolutely right, which is why complaining to Ubisoft on these forums will achieve nothing constuctive at all. These are not the Ubisoft forums, or a franchise of Ubisoft.

B: I haven't been constantly posting about anything for 3 months - you must be thinking of someone else.

Ah, now here you are cheating and not answering the question. No one said you had been constantly posting for three months. The question was 'What would be said about a person that did that for three months?', so nice dodge, but you didn't answer the question.

C: This poll includes 2 specific answers for people such as myself who haven't bought this game so it is entirely legitimate to discus why I have come to that decision here. Certainly can't be described as spamming or hysteria.

Er, OK, again, no one said you were spamming or being hysterical, where did you get that idea from?

D: I told a tiny little fib - I do own a Honda. It was a bit of an in-joke and just shows you shouldn't believe everything you read on the interweb.

Dredd :arrgh!:

You liar! But seriously, not everything on the internetz R gud? Now that is news!

So yes, long answer from you, but you didn't answer the question posed.

[oscar19681]

•SH4 ships can now be imported (useful for modders).
•Improvements in the reward system for U-boats in the dynamic campaign
•Improvements to the AI
•Changes to accommodate RU localization will therefore be present in patch 1.2, but will not affect players in a visible form.

Right now I'm still amazed that these were dropped from the patch - pretty crucial IMO.

I'll be playing SH3 GWX3 for the foreseeable future....

I dont understand either. dont forget that they also dropped "crew will change cloathes in bad weather" These were the changes why they should make a patch in the first place and they dropped it!:damn: insted they have some stuppid so called improvments to stuff i never knew cuased problems! And even the things they " fixed " dont even seem to work most of the time!

[Rockin Robbins]

Posting here, if the reason for the post is to complain to Ubisoft, is pretty pointless.

I'll buy that reasoning for a dollar. However the reason I post here is to warn the newbies shopping for a good subsim that SH5 should be given a pass. Ubi does not enter the equation at all. Newbies deserve to know the truth, that Ubi jumped the shark very badly on this one. They disrespected their customers and made a seriously flawed game too.

And most importantly, even if all the flaws are fixed, Ubi can at any time pull the plug on its three servers and nobody can play the game they think they bought. That is not acceptable. Newbies need to know that and the fanbois aren't going to tell them.

[Brag]

I'll buy that reasoning for a dollar. However the reason I post here is to warn the newbies shopping for a good subsim that SH5 should be given a pass. Ubi does not enter the equation at all. Newbies deserve to know the truth, that Ubi jumped the shark very badly on this one. They disrespected their customers and made a seriously flawed game too.

And most importantly, even if all the flaws are fixed, Ubi can at any time pull the plug on its three servers and nobody can play the game they think they bought. That is not acceptable. Newbies need to know that and the fanbois aren't going to tell them.

Excellent reasoning!

What I find hard to understand is why the game users (can't call them owners) get so upset when someone complains about SHV or Ubi's OSP.
And worst of all, those who keep asking to have dissidents of their views banned from the forum. It seems SHV is not only flawed but brings out the worst in its users.

[Nisgeis]

I'll buy that reasoning for a dollar. However the reason I post here is to warn the newbies shopping for a good subsim that SH5 should be given a pass.

The number of reviews out there should cover that and if they don't for those that don't check the reviews, then the user ratings on the sites that people are buying them from (e.g. amazon) should tell them. If they don't buy online and they buy as an impulse buy in a shop, then they won't have looked at a review first or done any research, especially not on subsim. Your target audience is pretty thin.

I personally, am interested in why people aren't buying the game.

[IanC]

The reviews will reflect the quality of the game, but so will the forums. If the game is good, the threads will be mostly positive and vice-versa. It's only natural and we're seeing it now in this SH5 forum. The only way to change it would be a policy change like "no negative threads" or "no negative comments"... which sounds wrong to me and would not reflect the reality of the game.

[kylania]

However the reason I post here is to warn the newbies shopping for a good subsim that SH5 should be given a pass. Ubi does not enter the equation at all. Newbies deserve to know the truth, that Ubi jumped the shark very badly on this one. They disrespected their customers and made a seriously flawed game too.

And most importantly, even if all the flaws are fixed, Ubi can at any time pull the plug on its three servers and nobody can play the game they think they bought. That is not acceptable. Newbies need to know that and the fanbois aren't going to tell them.

Please make sense. First you claim that Ubi "does not enter the equation at all" then go on to constantly talk about Ubi this and Ubi that.

The "truth" is that Silent Hunter 5 is a perfectly playable and enjoyable game for most users, even more so with current and upcoming mods. DRM no longer seems to affect the gameplay for most users. Sure it's still got bugs, but it's not "seriously flawed" anymore.

You did really great work, as you've brutally pointed out to others (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1391607&postcount=139), with SH4 and that's greatly appreciated, but with SH5 you're apparently nothing more than heckler. Stop it.

[Méo]

Excellent reasoning!

What I find hard to understand is why the game users (can't call them owners) get so upset when someone complains about SHV or Ubi's OSP.

It's not hard to understand at all.

There's a big difference between someone who complains and someone who's spamming complaints...

(I know I've already said it in another thread but it seems like I had to recall it).

----

btw, a BIG +1 to Kylania

[IanC]

(I know I've already said it in another thread but it seems like I had to recall it).


Oh is that what we call spamming? :03:

[Méo]

Oh is that what you call spamming? :03:

*sigh*

again... I've said it twice and there's dozens of comments like ''I am sick of the complaining about the complaining.'' or ''We are free to express our own opinion whether you like it or not'' etc.

[IanC]

*sigh*

again... I've said it twice and there's dozens of comments like ''I am sick of the complaining about the complaining.'' or ''We are free to express our own opinion whether you like it or not'' etc.

Hmm... I don't think you saw what I was getting at, but that's fine.

[Rockin Robbins]

Please make sense. First you claim that Ubi "does not enter the equation at all" then go on to constantly talk about Ubi this and Ubi that.

The "truth" is that Silent Hunter 5 is a perfectly playable and enjoyable game for most users, even more so with current and upcoming mods. DRM no longer seems to affect the gameplay for most users. Sure it's still got bugs, but it's not "seriously flawed" anymore.

You did really great work, as you've brutally pointed out to others (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1391607&postcount=139), with SH4 and that's greatly appreciated, but with SH5 you're apparently nothing more than heckler. Stop it.

What part of saying that my posts are not made for the benefit of Ubi, but for the benefit of innocent people about to be cheated can you not wrap your brain around. I don't care if Ubi hears that their conduct is unacceptable. They have the responsibility to know that without my help.

That is why they don't "enter the equation at all" in why I post. My concern and my posts are directed solely at new game shoppers thinking SH5 might just be worth purchasing.

If SH5 is fixed, if it becomes the most fun you can have with your clothes on, it still won't matter if Ubi pulls the plug, leaving you with nothing. They have the full power and legitimate right to do that and you think it's fine. In the face of direct questions regarding that, their best and strongest reply is "well, there are no plans at this time to do that." I'm plenty reassured, arent you?:har:

Do you know the story of the Sword of Damocles and why it applies to this situation?

When I am strongly personally attacked by someone denying my ability to legitimately post I am allowed to refute that. I did it without calling names, without questioning his character and with nothing but the facts. If it happens again, I will respond similarly.

[Sonarman]

@Rockin Robbins
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that should the "sword ever drop" Ubi would issue a patch to remove the DRM anything else would surely be unlawful?

I know this is definitely the case with Storm Eagle's DRM (Jutland & Distant Guns) Jim Rose has publically stated that should the company be dissolved etc a patch would be released for their products to eliminate the need for the server.

[Rockin Robbins]

Jim Rose laid all the plans and information out front in the beginning. Nobody had to chase him with a pair of pliers to pry the truth out of him. There's a world of difference between Jim Rose and Ubi. Ubi's language has been evasive, they have never denied that they would shut down the servers without leaving players a way to play SH5. Their best reply to a direct question that had to be asked about the matter (because they said nothing about their plans voluntarily) was that there were no plans to do that at that time. Those are weasel words with a capital "W."

Our conduct toward Ubi is all tied up in fancy legalese in the secret EULA you don't get to see until you open the package. Our conduct is required by law. Ubi's is entirely voluntary and they have shown no willingness to be forthright. I don't know about you but when I'm treated as if I'm not trusted I figure that says a lot more about the other guy than it does about me. Other game companies have pulled the plug on servers, leaving their customers high and dry. You can't say that it can't happen here.

Assuming it won't is just whistling in the dark. All you're doing is telling the monster where you are.

[Méo]

Hmm... I don't think you saw what I was getting at, but that's fine.

It might.

Anyway, it's friday night and I have to get out. :woot:

[Frumpkis]

@Rockin Robbins
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that should the "sword ever drop" Ubi would issue a patch to remove the DRM anything else would surely be unlawful?

There is another layer on top of that, with people who buy the game on Steam. Those customers will expect Steam to support the game even if Ubi goes away, or drops the authentication servers for PC games and moves to console-only games. Steam might actually be a "safer" way to buy the game at this point, although that's really just gambling on which service will last longer in the PC game market.

[Moeceefus]

If SH5 is fixed, if it becomes the most fun you can have with your clothes on, it still won't matter if Ubi pulls the plug, leaving you with nothing. They have the full power and legitimate right to do that and you think it's fine. In the face of direct questions regarding that, their best and strongest reply is "well, there are no plans at this time to do that." I'm plenty reassured, arent you?:har:

Do you know the story of the Sword of Damocles and why it applies to this situation?




(puts on foil hat, awaits 2012 in bunker) :doh: :har:

[SloppyMk27]

What I find hard to understand is why the game users (can't call them owners) get so upset when someone complains about SHV or Ubi's OSP.
And worst of all, those who keep asking to have dissidents of their views banned from the forum. It seems SHV is not only flawed but brings out the worst in its users.

Game Users - I like it:up:. Similar to US Currency. You don't own the physical currency, but you have the rights to use it. (At least with US Currency I don't need to have a permenant link from my brain to the IRS to use it) The illusion of ownership of something we pay for prevails again.:woot:

As far as it brings out the worst in it's users; needless to say many of us were let down and slapped in the face by Ubisoft as a result of SH5. I can't speak for anyone else but I suspect I wasn't alone when I expected so much more out of the game than what it turned out to be. I was really hoping for the realism and functionality of SH3, the modding flexability of SH4, and utilizing the graphical capabilities of today. I won't complain too much. One wish came true, I can watch ships crash into the docks in high detail:har:. (the wish was admiration of the graphical detail - not that ai problem)

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

SloppyMk27

[Holdit]

@Rockin Robbins
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that should the "sword ever drop" Ubi would issue a patch to remove the DRM anything else would surely be unlawful?

Ah, but is it in the EULA? And if not, why not? If it's true...

I know this is definitely the case with Storm Eagle's DRM (Jutland & Distant Guns) Jim Rose has publically stated that should the company be dissolved etc a patch would be released for their products to eliminate the need for the server.And has he stated it in the EULA? And if not, why not? If it's true...

Unfortunately, something some guy said some time on some forum is likely to be as significant as a fart in a high wind, when it comes down to legality.

Holdit

[TwistedAdonis]

It's like religious folk on your doorstep.

They are people who believe what others tell them without needing empirical proof of their own... and then feel the need to evangelize.

It's pointless arguing with them. Just don't answer the doorbell.

(I'm talking about people who criticise without playing the game btw).

[McHibbins]

Müll

[THE_MASK]

After going to the game shop yesterday and looking what pc games were on offer , i will stick with SH5 . The DarkWraiths mod is awesome .

[Nisgeis]

Do you know the story of the Sword of Damocles and why it applies to this situation?

Is that a downloadable extra off of UPlay?

[Brag]

Is that a downloadable extra off of UPlay?

If you are offline you won't know what hit you :haha::har::haha::har::haha::har:

[Moeceefus]

Ah, but is it in the EULA? And if not, why not? If it's true...

And has he stated it in the EULA? And if not, why not? If it's true...

Unfortunately, something some guy said some time on some forum is likely to be as significant as a fart in a high wind, when it comes down to legality.

Holdit



"You understand and agree that this Multimedia Product requires an online connection at all times and the Multimedia Product must be played through the Internet services provided at ubi.com. In the event Ubisoft terminates or discontinues Internet services associated with this Multimedia Product, Ubisoft will provide a software update that will allow the User to utilize the Multimedia Product without connecting to Ubisoft's servers."

taken directly from the sh5 eula. :yeah:

[Moeceefus]

Jim Rose laid all the plans and information out front in the beginning. Nobody had to chase him with a pair of pliers to pry the truth out of him. There's a world of difference between Jim Rose and Ubi. Ubi's language has been evasive, they have never denied that they would shut down the servers without leaving players a way to play SH5. Their best reply to a direct question that had to be asked about the matter (because they said nothing about their plans voluntarily) was that there were no plans to do that at that time. Those are weasel words with a capital "W."

Our conduct toward Ubi is all tied up in fancy legalese in the secret EULA you don't get to see until you open the package. Our conduct is required by law. Ubi's is entirely voluntary and they have shown no willingness to be forthright. I don't know about you but when I'm treated as if I'm not trusted I figure that says a lot more about the other guy than it does about me. Other game companies have pulled the plug on servers, leaving their customers high and dry. You can't say that it can't happen here.

Assuming it won't is just whistling in the dark. All you're doing is telling the monster where you are.




"You understand and agree that this Multimedia Product requires an online connection at all times and the Multimedia Product must be played through the Internet services provided at ubi.com. In the event Ubisoft terminates or discontinues Internet services associated with this Multimedia Product, Ubisoft will provide a software update that will allow the User to utilize the Multimedia Product without connecting to Ubisoft's servers."

taken directly from the sh5 eula. :yeah: you can review the eula anytime before and after purchase, nothing secretive about it.

[Yak]

I'm not holding my breath for any OSP removal patch.

There is absolutely zero reason to trust anything ubisoft says.
Does this make them 'damned if they do, damned if they don't"? Perhaps, but they have never given me one reason over the last decade I've been using their products to trust them, they've always been one of the worst offenders out there.

[Gammelpreusse]

Hm now that I have played the game for a bit, before stopping a month or so ago....


SHV impressed me much more on sight then SHIII and IV when firing it up the first time. It was pretty mind blowing to see the graphics and the ideas the developers put in.

On the other hand SHV has the lowest long term motivational factors. I am in 42 and simply lost any drive to further play it. It's shelved for now until something major comes up, especially in regards to merchant shipping.

UBI policies did not help much to improve the impressions, either.

[Yak]

The poll results are certainly interesting and seem to contradict the popular fanboy view..

And this isn't exactly gamespot or pc.ign forums full of petulant fifteen year olds, this is a niche forum that is very genre specific and with a much older audience, so such an overwhelmingly negative view by people deliberately seeking out this forum really isn't a good thing...

[SubV]

No, SH5 isn't total fiasco. If the devs release another one or two patches (and remove online DRM, of course), this game will eventually become better than SH3.

[robbo180265]

It's really difficult to say anything else nowadays - as soon as you say the game is playable or enjoyable you end up getting labled a "fanboi" or worse (have a look at the personal insults Magnum got for standing up for the game in another thread) , so I for one have stopped bothering.

At the end of the day - most of (more mature forum members) realise that it's all subjective, that whilst one may enjoy the game others may not.

Can't be assed to argue anymore , cant be assed to fill out polls anymore. It's like marmite it seems - you either love it or hate it.

[MataDirtyHarry]

The poll results are certainly interesting and seem to contradict the popular fanboy view..

And this isn't exactly gamespot or pc.ign forums full of petulant fifteen year olds, this is a niche forum that is very genre specific and with a much older audience, so such an overwhelmingly negative view by people deliberately seeking out this forum really isn't a good thing...
It's just that the fanbois are more vocal than the "normal" member, like all fanbois are, looking at the results of this posll the game seems to be not so well "rated" here. It's obvious subjective, but at least we can see the general trend regarding SH5 perception in this community. Of course, the fanbois will say something different, that's why they are what they are. The best example: look at the fanboi that has just wrote above me: he is writing every day at least a few messages on this forum saying how great the game is and he is now starting to whine that he cannot write anything in this forum anymore. And he is not the only one fanboi here, there's a little army of them. But that won't make the game better "rated" that he actually is , at least from this poll's results point of view ...

"fanboi=someone who is hopelessly devoted to something and will like anything associated with their particular thing.

Fanbois typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how perfect their console of choice is, and how inferior all other products are. Fanbois will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking." fanboi definition from Online Urban Dictionary

[Der SchattenJager]

I think with 1.2 and a few essential mods, SHV is turning into a fantastic game. Already being an above-average game after only the first few months since release, I'm really excited to see how this game will be by the end of the year.

Given how crappy SHIII and IV were in their first few months, I think SHV is on its way to being the pinnacle of WWII subsims. :rock:

[Moeceefus]

It's just that the fanbois are more vocal than the "normal" member, like all fanbois are, looking at the results of this posll the game seems to be not so well "rated" here. It's obvious subjective, but at least we can see the general trend regarding SH5 perception in this community. Of course, the fanbois will say something different, that's why they are what they are. The best example: look at the fanboi that has just wrote above me: he is writing every day at least a few messages on this forum saying how great the game is and he is now starting to whine that he cannot write anything in this forum anymore. And he is not the only one fanboi here, there's a little army of them. But that won't make the game better "rated" that he actually is , at least from this poll's results point of view ...

"fanboi=someone who is hopelessly devoted to something and will like anything associated with their particular thing.

Fanbois typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how perfect their console of choice is, and how inferior all other products are. Fanbois will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking." fanboi definition from Online Urban Dictionary


what can we label the opposite then?

hater(or h8r if you want to look cool)=someone who is hopelessly devoted to hating something and will hate anything associated with liking their particular thing of hate.

haters typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how bad their console of choice is, and how superior all other products are. haters will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking.

[siebr00]

I like it a lot but.......

:yeah:- I do need the MOD (e.g. TheDarkWraith (TDC-UI), Skawsjer(Voice recognition) to name the for me 2 most important ones. I do not mind if the hand of a dial is missing or stuck. I can understand that it's not the goal of the developer and having written a few programs myself, I know how difficult it is to do a 100%. In the heat of the action I most likely won't miss it (except for the most necessary ones of course:03:). So no UBI-bashing from me on that. I really appreciate all the hard work of the MODders to correct this and they do deserve recognition for that :salute::salute::salute:
UBI owns them a lot.

:nope: - The way to automatically get the torpedo solution correct (by turning away the peri/UZO and place the number on the number) is ABSOLUTE crap. What was wrong with the SH3/SH$ way of fireing???? The guy who is able to MOD that is my 3rd most important modder.

:down: :nope: :down: - The DRM from UBI is more than ABSOLUTE CRAP. I do not synchronize my save games. Getting a check on a legal installation I can live with but the way it's implemented I abhor.

Would I recommend the game??

Absolutely YES!!!! but with mentioning my points above.

Good hunting ye all. :arrgh!:

[Akulla72]

I really enjoy the game, love the way it looks and feels.

But there are a few things that I think it could use, or see a return from previous SH games.

1. Rudder Icon, I really miss that, the compass dial they added is nice, but not as handy.

2. I'd like to see oil slicks, maybe a bit more debris from wrecks, I havent see any ships break apart from torpedo damage.

3. I'd like to be able to replace crew members.

[ingsoc84]

Since patch 1.2 and with all the outstanding mods, the game I is awesome, and I enjoy it very much!

[subsimlee]

I'm definitely being won over to SH5 by the Modders. What was unplayable is now bearable. DarkWraith was first to give me some important control and hope for the sim....:up:
That said, the DRM concept still sucks the big one!!!

[Ironwolf u-895]

Well here it is my version of good or not the game is. Although I see the effort in which to advance the game from the first 4 ver. I see that the game has many possiblilities but in the current state its disapointing at somethings incounterd in the game. Unless u have a mod for the key controls for example the different controls that exist in the other vers dont exist in this one. when u want to "Dive" the ship u press d...good but now u press v? anyway correct the key commands for the ship. UBI has NOT done its job properly and for a game that has many possibilities i see it not getting far. Ex. on patrol, attack a con..torps hits a tanker, but she doesnt sink even if shes burnnning for hours and has three holes in her, comon A tanker ppl..caring some type of fuel,when on fire is going to burn and destroy the ship sooner or later..but no, in stead u save the game..come back to it later and hey the tanker is no longer on fire, and shes maken 5kts...ok UBI EXPLAIN THE DAMN LOGIC U USE! IM not against ubi but who ever wrote the program clearly was just to make money on the project and then shelf the game after..as they feel no fixes are needed other wise they would of had the fixes come sooner and they would stay on top of the issues untill either fixed or hire a group of ppl who know the game and can fix it... for this game..well im a type IX fan and would of love to see a few of these boats in there even if only a mod...and the upgrades in the game to ur sub? shoot..i can make them myself before the dang repair guy comes up with them..come on late 1942 and in a few months in 43 the games over...im sure that the NAZI rsd teams were well into developing new tech stuff to help there subs survive longer and oh ya..even though the dainishs envented the snorkol the germans put it to good use..but not in the game hey?
ok enough of me..just fix the game as it should be...it has lots of good possibliities only if u devote a team to it,,,but i doubt ubi will
they made there money...in there words"on to bigger and better things"
anyway this is me sounding off

[Frumpkis]

what can we label the opposite then?

hater(or h8r if you want to look cool)=someone who is hopelessly devoted to hating something and will hate anything associated with liking their particular thing of hate.

It's not that black and white. I think there is probably a large middle ground of people like me, who are fans of the earlier series, and who haven't bought SH5 yet because we're waiting to see how the dance between Ubi's patch release plans and the modders works out. For someone like me, it's not enough for a current SH5 owner to say it's "fantastic" in its current state with a few essential mods. Different people have different thresholds of what they can put up with, as bugs that break immersion.

There is also an overlapping group of people who either refuse to put up with the current DRM, or just don't have a constant Internet connection. They're waiting to see if (at some point) Ubi changes the DRM to allow offline play.

There may be "haters" that will just bad-mouth the game regardless of any change in circumstances, but I wouldn't call either of these groups "haters." They're just fans of subsims who don't rate the current game state as enjoyable, and worth the money (yet). If the poll is asking how we feel about the game, we're responding honestly. We can't respond based on how the game "might" turn out six months or a year from now.

[robbo180265]

It's not that black and white. I think there is probably a large middle ground of people like me, who are fans of the earlier series, and who haven't bought SH5 yet because we're waiting to see how the dance between Ubi's patch release plans and the modders works out. For someone like me, it's not enough for a current SH5 owner to say it's "fantastic" in its current state with a few essential mods. Different people have different thresholds of what they can put up with, as bugs that break immersion.

There is also an overlapping group of people who either refuse to put up with the current DRM, or just don't have a constant Internet connection. They're waiting to see if (at some point) Ubi changes the DRM to allow offline play.

There may be "haters" that will just bad-mouth the game regardless of any change in circumstances, but I wouldn't call either of these groups "haters." They're just fans of subsims who don't rate the current game state as enjoyable, and worth the money (yet). If the poll is asking how we feel about the game, we're responding honestly. We can't respond based on how the game "might" turn out six months or a year from now.

I agree with you and I would imagine most of our responsible members think the same way. I imagine that Moeceefus was responding mainly to the poster he quoted intending perhaps, to show the folly of trying to lump a whole load of different people into one catagory.

Or that's my take on it anyway:salute:

[Sub Marauder]

Redundant choices.

[Nisgeis]

I agree with you and I would imagine most of our responsible members think the same way. I imagine that Moeceefus was responding mainly to the poster he quoted intending perhaps, to show the folly of trying to lump a whole load of different people into one catagory.

Or that's my take on it anyway:salute:

Seems like all you have to do is say that you enjoy playing SH5 to be labelled a fanboi (by some). Some just won't accept that the game is playable and enjoyable (by those who play it and enjoy it). I don't think they should be called haters, but nafbois. Or perhaps EA Employees.

[Méo]

Or perhaps EA Employees.

:har::har::har:


:yeah:

[Bilge_Rat]

what can we label the opposite then?

hater(or h8r if you want to look cool)=someone who is hopelessly devoted to hating something and will hate anything associated with liking their particular thing of hate.

haters typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how bad their console of choice is, and how superior all other products are. haters will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking.


actually, the linear opposite of a fanboi is a cryboi, short for "crybaby".

cryboi: (def) player who unquestioningly attacks a game 100% of the time, no matter what feature or legitimate praise is invoked;

fanboi: (def) player who unquestioningly supports a game 100% of the time, no matter what bugs or legitimate criticism are raised;

In my experience, "Crybois" are easily spotted by their frequent use of the term "Fanbois" to describe their opponents.


Fortunately, most subsim members fall somewhere between these two extremes.

[robbo180265]

Seems like all you have to do is say that you enjoy playing SH5 to be labelled a fanboi (by some). Some just won't accept that the game is playable and enjoyable (by those who play it and enjoy it). I don't think they should be called haters, but nafbois. Or perhaps EA Employees.

I appreciate the humour (I guarantee that others wont lol) but maybe it's time that we just dropped the name calling (I've been guilty of it too sometimes) and just accepted that some of us love the game and some of us don't.

There was a thread where a chap was asking for views about the game - it descended into mayhem very quickly and I dare say the poor chap will have been put off Subsim altogether - I know I would have been.

But then all this has been said before I guess..

[Nisgeis]

I appreciate the humour (I guarantee that others wont lol) but maybe it's time that we just dropped the name calling (I've been guilty of it too sometimes) and just accepted that some of us love the game and some of us don't.

I think about 3 months ago was the time to stop the name calling. Weak, impotent, stupid, idiots, delusional, Ubisoft Employees, plants, fools, fanboys, fanbois (the deliberately derogatory form of fanboy)- all words thrown by the nafbois at those who say the like the game (not love the game omg it's the best thing ever, but like it!) and that's just the ones I can remember off the top of my head from the various threads. Also those insults have been thrown at some who only bought the game, without actually expressing an opinion on whether they liked it or not.

People have tried reasoning with them, they've tried ignoring them, they've tried agreeing with them, they've tried complaining about them, they've tried complaining on a completely unrelated forum, they've tried doing nothing (to see if it actually worked), they've asked their solicitor if they can sue them, the only thing I haven't seen them do is start a petition, but still people post that the game is unplayable and unenjoyable, when clearly there are people that can play the game and do enjoy it. They just won't accept that some people can enjoy the game and instead resort to calling them names! I don't think after three months of it, it's unreasonable to give them a name.

It's clear that not everyone who hasn't purchased the game, or doesn't like it falls into this category, as there are multiple reasons people do and do not like the game. But there is still that very small minority who is nothing but snide and downright unpleasant about people whose only crime is to try to discuss what they like about a game on a discussion forum set up to discuss a game.

[Nordmann]

Hear, hear! True spoken.

Frankly, I'm surprised personal attacks are allowed on here, as most forums that I visit tend to issue suspensions or bans for this kind of behaviour; it is unnecessary, and a real turn off for new community members. If you have to resort to derogatory names, you have already lost the debate.

[MataDirtyHarry]

Speaking of fanbois, I wonder how come that there are so much that consider the game to be a fiasco, but we are just seeing fanbois' posts? Maybe the people with some reason ("crybabies" in somebody's vision) here just doesn't bother to be as vocal as fanbois ... It may be an explanation. By the way, it will take some time until there will be some general accepted term for the people that don't see crap as honey, but fortunately, we have one for the unconditional love for a game or for a company: FANBOI

[robbo180265]

If you have to resort to derogatory names, you have already lost the debate.

Obviously I wholeheartedly agree with you. The problem as I see it is that people with genuine reasons for liking/not liking the game are caught up in the flaming and namecalling. As an example I and another senior member had a public falling out, through no fault of our own - completely crossed arguments , started by other people.

I think maybe the answer is to try not to fight fire with fire - be bigger than that (and I'm talking about both sides of the fence here - the guys that like and the guys that don't) If we ignore the trouble makers then maybe they'll have to find another forum to harrass.

I'm gonna try to make it my attitude from now on besides, if you leave their post hanging in an otherwise ok debate , then surely you show it's childishness to everyone else?

Robbo out:salute:

[MataDirtyHarry]

Obviously I wholeheartedly agree with you. The problem as I see it is that people with genuine reasons for liking/not liking the game are caught up in the flaming and namecalling. As an example I and another senior member had a public falling out, through no fault of our own - completely crossed arguments , started by other people.

I think maybe the answer is to try not to fight fire with fire - be bigger than that (and I'm talking about both sides of the fence here - the guys that like and the guys that don't) If we ignore the trouble makers then maybe they'll have to find another forum to harrass.

I'm gonna try to make it my attitude from now on besides, if you leave their post hanging in an otherwise ok debate , then surely you show it's childishness to everyone else?

Robbo out:salute:

Edit to add:Timing is everything
fanboi ...

[Nisgeis]

Speaking of fanbois, I wonder how come that there are so much that consider the game to be a fiasco, but we are just seeing fanbois' posts? Maybe the people with some reason ("crybabies" in somebody's vision) here just doesn't bother to be as vocal as fanbois ... It may be an explanation. By the way, it will take some time until there will be some general accepted term for the people that don't see crap as honey, but fortunately, we have one for the unconditional love for a game or for a company: FANBOI

Pure honey.

[Bilge_Rat]

Pure honey.


like shooting fish in a barrel, hardly worth the trouble...:arrgh!:

[Reece]

^ last 2 posts!:har:

[Méo]

The most ridiculous thing in all this is that they are the only ones who are making a fixation on Ubisoft.

...while we're only interested in playing and improving a U-boat simulation.

[Reece]

These posts exist because of peoples frustration, some just show it with a little more passion than others, to some Silent Hunter is a game, others it's a life, ranting though does nothing, but sometimes it's the only way to vent steam!!:oops:
We all wish UBI would put in a reasonable effort in producing a game and certainly in fixing it up, but all the wishes in the world ain't gonna make it happen, a shame!:damn: Wish I knew why UBI went down this road in the first place!:hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

Frankly, I'm surprised personal attacks are allowed on here, as most forums that I visit tend to issue suspensions or bans for this kind of behaviour; it is unnecessary, and a real turn off for new community members. If you have to resort to derogatory names, you have already lost the debate.
Actually they aren't. People aren't directly suspended at first, but they are warned when the moderators think they've gone too far. Of course there are differences of opinion on what constitutes a personal attack, but these threads are watched.

[mookiemookie]

Hear, hear! True spoken.

Frankly, I'm surprised personal attacks are allowed on here, as most forums that I visit tend to issue suspensions or bans for this kind of behaviour; it is unnecessary, and a real turn off for new community members. If you have to resort to derogatory names, you have already lost the debate.

A-MEN! The Subsim I know would have brigged people who had nothing to offer but namecalling.

[Méo]

These posts exist because of peoples frustration, some just show it with a little more passion than others, to some Silent Hunter is a game, others it's a life, ranting though does nothing, but sometimes it's the only way to vent steam!!:oops:

I see what you mean, and some comments are somewhat excessive ..to say the least.

After all, SH5 is, slowly but surely, getting better.

[McBeck]

Moderators are making sure issues are being addressed. Lets get back on track.... :shucks:

[W_clear]

It's a great game。I like it very much.Hope everyone understands the game developers, they are not easy. If you do not believe that you try development of a game。


Long live the understanding。

[Jimbuna]

Moderators are making sure issues are being addressed. Lets get back on track.... :shucks:

Let me check to make sure there isn't a train due first :DL

[Zedi]

Hope everyone understands the game developers, they are not easy. If you do not believe that you try development of a game。


Long live the understanding。

Just.. let me understand this. Ubi is the only one video game developer company in the world? If this is true, then .. yeah, I think you are right.

It should be a very hard work to develop games, maybe in the meantime they also invented the hot water and the silly walks. Outstanding job, we should be grateful for this absolutely genuine and revolutionary game. Too bad that they forgot to test the game before launch, but I suppose they were exhausted and forgot to do that. So after this long and hard work, they must took a long and well deserved vacation so that's also explain why is no communication or some serious patches to the very minor bugs that the mean community found.

I feel good and relaxed now, I needed this clarification. /ty

[Nordmann]

Actually they aren't. People aren't directly suspended at first, but they are warned when the moderators think they've gone too far. Of course there are differences of opinion on what constitutes a personal attack, but these threads are watched.

I suppose that may be the case in some incidents, but there are a lot of flame wars spread across the forum, which appear to go unnoticed for some time. Even then, the perpetrators are generally told to settle down and nothing more, which is essentially like telling a five year old not to touch the cookie jar you have conveniently left in plain sight!

To say little of the repeated thread spamming of the general SH5 board, threads which say nothing new, and oft repeat the rage of many weeks previous. Unnecessary. As I said earlier, some forums take a very dim view of such actions, and immediate bans are not unknown. I'm not saying that SubSim should take this route, but stricter moderation is probably needed.

It's Neal's forum though, so this is only my personal opinion.

A-MEN! The Subsim I know would have brigged people who had nothing to offer but namecalling.

I guess the mods are cutting people some slack, but there is such a thing as being too lenient.

[robbo180265]

I suppose that may be the case in some incidents, but there are a lot of flame wars spread across the forum, which appear to go unnoticed for some time. Even then, the perpetrators are generally told to settle down and nothing more, which is essentially like telling a five year old not to touch the cookie jar you have conveniently left in plain sight!

I still think the best course of action for dealing with these members is to ignore them completely. It's a tiny amount of members who do this and generally they are only seeking attention. Starve them of attention and (hopefully) they will leave.

To say little of the repeated thread spamming of the general SH5 board, threads which say nothing new, and oft repeat the rage of many weeks previous. Unnecessary. As I said earlier, some forums take a very dim view of such actions, and immediate bans are not unknown. I'm not saying that SubSim should take this route, but stricter moderation is probably needed.

When it comes to the thread spamming - don't post in the thread , it's obvious really - you post , it goes to the top , others post - rinse and repeat. Don't post in those threads and they will die naturally.

It's Neal's forum though, so this is only my personal opinion.



I guess the mods are cutting people some slack, but there is such a thing as being too lenient.

They are operating a yellow card system from what I can tell. I assume it's 2 or 3 yellows and you are sent off.


I think the mods do a really good job in a sometimes difficult forum , but as I've said earlier it's also up all of us to help them too.

[MataDirtyHarry]

They are operating a yellow card system from what I can tell. I assume it's 2 or 3 yellows and you are sent off.


I think the mods do a really good job in a sometimes difficult forum , but as I've said earlier it's also up all of us to help them too.
Both you and the poster just above you should think probably more than twice before having the nerve to say what you've just said. Just because you like SH5 (I won't use "fanboi" again, it seems that this is considered an insult from an unknown reason to me) doesn't give you (fortunately) the right to ban the voices that are dissapointed by SH5 or UBI. I suppose if this forum would have moderators that are thinking in your style, it would be really bad. Sorry to say that, but you should be ashamed of yourself, you have a very immature attitude in this area.

[kylania]

You and the poster above should think probably more than twice before having the nerve to say what you've just said.

Sorry to say that, but you should be ashamed of yourself, you have a very immature attitude in this area.

...doesn't give you (fortunately) the right to ban the voices that are dissapointed by SH5 or UBI.

Can you not tell the difference between insulting others and commenting on the game? You just personally attacked other forum members while not mentioning anything about Ubisoft or Silent Hunter 5. You're not knocking Ubi, or expressing disappointment over the game, you're just insulting other members. That's why you're getting warned I imagine.

No one is going to be banned for reasonably expressing disappointment for the game. They will probably get banned for constantly insulting and attacking others however.

[Seefer]

As soon as someone converts to attacking the person rather than the points they are making, they have already lost the argument and are in danger of showing how weak their stance was in the first place, as well as how weak-minded they are in being able to put forward their own arguments.

This method of attacking the person in an argument is a well-known 'logical fallacy' called an 'ad hominim' and has been known about for thousands of years.

Forums are a great study source for anyone interested in logicial fallacies, especially 'flame war' threads. This is what happens when debate can be done behind the mask of anonymity :)

Seriously though, everyone should Google and Wiki 'logicial fallacies', if only to arm themselves with the right tools with which to make constructive arguments and hopefully lessen some of the trash talk that crops up in forums so very often.

Amazingly, most of the times I have posted about ad hominims in other forums, I've invaribaly gotten immediate responses along the lines of "No one cares about your psuedo-intellectual nonsense....go away", which is obviously an ad hominim itself. It's like some weird self-fullfilling prophecy oni the nature of some forum posters. Of course everyone here at Subsim is far to savvy and intelligent for that ;)

[CaptainPanAm]

No one cares about your psuedo-intellectual nonsense ... creep!

[robbo180265]

No one cares about your psuedo-intellectual nonsense ... creep!

As soon as I got to the last paragraph of Seefer's post I knew what was coming (as did he I would imagine) but I still guffawed :har:

Welcome to Subsim - with a sense of humour like that I reckon you'll fit right in.

[longam]

It's a total fiasco

It sounds like a really good Taco Bell item to me, the fiasco burrito. nom nom nom

[kylania]

It sounds like a really good Taco Bell item to me, the fiasco burrito. nom nom nom

Grr, now I want a burrito!

[Sailor Steve]

No one cares about your psuedo-intellectual nonsense ... creep!
Good one! You might have posted a smilie :D just to be on the safe side, but I'm sure everyone got the joke.

WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[CaptainPanAm]

Of course it was a joke, but putting a smile after my own words would be like laughing by myself at my jokes, I'd rather let anybody else to do that.

[Sailor Steve]

I know. I just worry about people getting the wrong impression. I was thinking less a laugh than a grin.

But you don't need me telling you what to do. Sorry about that.

[danizzz]

I hope the result of this poll will close the "sh3 was a bad game either and became a great game with mods just like SH5"....SH3 was a great game even whithout mods ....if you look the review of that period you can see an average of 5 stars out of 5....Sh5 has an average of 2 out of 5.

I know there are great modders out there that can do miracles, but in my opinion SH5 is hopeless!:cry:

[Zedi]

...but in my opinion SH5 is hopeless!:cry:
Then will you plzzzzzz get back at that ancient SH3 and leave us alone? Plzzzz.... plzzzzzzzzz! Btw, SH3 door it that way -->

[Nordmann]

I hope the result of this poll will close the "sh3 was a bad game either and became a great game with mods just like SH5"....SH3 was a great game even whithout mods ....if you look the review of that period you can see an average of 5 stars out of 5....Sh5 has an average of 2 out of 5.

I know there are great modders out there that can do miracles, but in my opinion SH5 is hopeless!:cry:

I would take any poll result with a pinch of salt. As anyone and everyone can vote, regardless as to whether or not they own and have played the game. Not exactly a fair poll, when you take this into account.

As for SH3 being great out of the box, I think you need to back up such a statement with some cold, hard facts. What made it great? Were there bugs, and if not, how can you explain the patches? Why did such a 'great' game need modding in the first place, surely it was so great that mods were unnecessary?

As for the 5/5 reviews, which reviews were these and how biased were they in their appraisal? I have seen 5/5 SH5 reviews, do I believe them? No. Do I believe most reviews? Hell no. Do reviews tell the whole story? No, only a snapshot at the time it was reviewed (pre-release most of the time).

To conclude, if it really is 'hopeless', why do you keep coming back to the SH5 forum?

[JScones]

As for the 5/5 reviews, which reviews were these and how biased were they in their appraisal?
One that immediately comes to mind... http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/sh3_review1.htm

You may recognise the name of the reviewer. ;)

[Nordmann]

One that immediately comes to mind... http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_rc1/sh3_review1.htm

You may know the reviewer. ;)

I am already aware of that particular review, but if the poster I quoted is going to make claims such as he did, he needs to include more than one source. As it is, he didn't reference any!

[jwilliams]

IMO... SH5 patched to 1.2 and with TheDarkWraths UI is to the same playability as SH3 was at release.

I personaly wouldn't have given SH3 a score of 100% (100% is in my book, perfect. And it was not). But it would have been near.. 90%. Then add patches (1.4b) and the Supermods and SH3 gets 99%

SH5, I would have given a score of 65%, due to the game breaking bugs (e.g. Moral & stadimeter) But after patch 1.2 and with TDW UI. I'd score it 85%

So hopefully we get a few more patches and then the SUPERMODS :yeah:

Then maybe SH5 score will be near 100% too

[609_Avatar]

I would take any poll result with a pinch of salt. As anyone and everyone can vote, regardless as to whether or not they own and have played the game. Not exactly a fair poll, when you take this into account.

??? :06: How is a poll that asks those that if you don't have it why and what is your intention not "fair"? Granted, you can vote more than once but you are able to see who voted for what and then subtract numbers if you feel that's an issue. The whole idea is to have everyone and anyone vote to get opinions and reasons for choices... So please explain why you feel it isn't fair doing this kind of poll? Personally, I think it does a pretty good job, with the above caveat, at doing what it's trying to do. Of course all IMHO. :)