Why am I having such a hard time killing subs?

[NFunky]

Well ok, so I thought I was starting to get pretty good at TMA, understanding the sonar picture, and targeting my torpedoes properly, but I've been having really bad luck recently. It took me a while to figure out what it was and I think I've got it.

I've discovered that it's much harder to hit a sub that's under the layer. Even if my weapon is under the layer as well, sonar ranges are a great deal shorter. This means my solution has to be much more precise than I'm used to during terminal tracking. I'm still not great at tracking subs once they've started evading, so I'm missing a lot because of this. If anyone has any more tips on improving my 'post-evasion' TMA, I need them.

I was also wondering about clearing datum after firing. Any course change will screw up my towed sonar track, so I usually just change speed. However, I've been trying to avoid this limitation by acquiring the enemy sub on spherical once he's speeded up, but I'm having trouble here. It seems like I can't get a narrowband contact for the sphere unless I'm fairly close, but I can get broadband contact at a decent range. However, I can't designate the BB contact because my own damn weapons are in the way. If the target is loud/close enough though, I get a sphere contact, but that leads me to another dilemma. I can either make a datum clearing turn or I can use sphere/towed to triangulate and give me a much faster solution on the evading sub.

Proudly, I can say that I've got the bases pretty well covered up until weapons release, but once the fish are in the water I'm a bit of an incompetent. Help?

[TLAM Strike]

Try firing from a Lag LOS that way when the target hears your torpedoes coming at him you are already moving away from him.

[Molon Labe]

You don't need to have the TA all the way out. Shorten it, and you'll find turns aren't as much of a hassle.

Don't forget about the hull/conformal array. It's easier to get a 2nd contact on NB hull than it is BB sphere.

If you have a solid solution at the time of firing, you can anticipate an evasion course somewhat easily once the target goes evasive.

And what TLAM said.

[NFunky]

I do always try to fire from a lag LOS, but isn't that a bit different from actually clearing datum? I mean, if I fire on a target and I'm going 14 kts in a lag, should I just remain on the same course? Should I change my speed? Should I even bother to clear datum if he doesn't counterfire?

As for the TA, I do generally tend to keep it halfway extended and it still seems to take at least one bearing line before it stabilizes after large turns. Is there a minimum length below which detection is degraded? It seems that it is just as sensitive at half as at full, so would it still be as good at 1/4?

Oh and I did forget about the flank array, but I always thought it was the least sensitive of my sonars. I'll give it a shot!

[TLAM Strike]

The hull array detects lower freq tonals than the bow array so its able to pick up targets futher away, the downside is its washout speed is lower than the spherical array.

You could try a course change right after firing so you have time to reacquire the target before you're fish go active.

You also might want to consider use of active sonar to locate the target for your torpedoes, if the party is on and the other guy knows where you are there is no point in remaining silent.

[NFunky]

Well, I've just been playing with the TA at one third and I haven't noticed any decernable loss in sensitivity, but even shorter would be better. Can I just reel it in until I start getting louder flow noise then extend it a bit? How short is too short?

[NFunky]

Alright god damn it, this is really driving me crazy! I have a save-game of a simple scenario in which I have a solid solution on an enemy sub I think is a diesel boat because of its TPK. I'm around 18 kyds away and am ready to fire. Now here's the thing, I could fire below the layer and be almost positive of a hit, but I'm trying to practice terminal guidance. Every time I have tried firing above the layer I miss.

When my fish are about halfway between me and him, I hear him accelerate and then disappear below te layer. I then duck below the layer to keep tracking. Below the layer, I can still detect a single tonal on the towed array, but can't pick up BB sphere or NB hull. I can still manage to guide my weapons to within about two miles of the target, even the one I've preset to search under the layer won't acquire. I simply can't track him accurately enough to get my weapons within the necessary acquisition range (which seems to be ridiculously close, like 1000 yards). I also can't let the torpedoes do their own snake pattern cause the AI will immediately make a sharp turn in an either left or right (closing or opening with me) and I can't tell which direction he's turned fast enough to guide the fish.

I'd love to somehow post this save-game and see if you experienced players have any problems sinking the sub. This scenario has proven to me that my TMA skills are adiquate, but the two minute updates just don't seem to be enough for terminal guidance when under the layer. Can someone tell me how I'd go about uploading/posting the file or do I have to individually e-mail it?

[Molon Labe]

Alright god damn it, this is really driving me crazy! I have a save-game of a simple scenario in which I have a solid solution on an enemy sub I think is a diesel boat because of its TPK. I'm around 18 kyds away and am ready to fire. Now here's the thing, I could fire below the layer and be almost positive of a hit, but I'm trying to practice terminal guidance. Every time I have tried firing above the layer I miss.

When my fish are about halfway between me and him, I hear him accelerate and then disappear below te layer. I then duck below the layer to keep tracking. Below the layer, I can still detect a single tonal on the towed array, but can't pick up BB sphere or NB hull. I can still manage to guide my weapons to within about two miles of the target, even the one I've preset to search under the layer won't acquire. I simply can't track him accurately enough to get my weapons within the necessary acquisition range (which seems to be ridiculously close, like 1000 yards). I also can't let the torpedoes do their own snake pattern cause the AI will immediately make a sharp turn in an either left or right (closing or opening with me) and I can't tell which direction he's turned fast enough to guide the fish.

I'd love to somehow post this save-game and see if you experienced players have any problems sinking the sub. This scenario has proven to me that my TMA skills are adiquate, but the two minute updates just don't seem to be enough for terminal guidance when under the layer. Can someone tell me how I'd go about uploading/posting the file or do I have to individually e-mail it?


It would probably be OK to use the Download tab at the top of the page. Post it to DW/Missions. Also if you're at CADC, you can attach files to regular forum posts, so that may be more convenient. You can find the file in your DW/Scenarios directory; it has a .mss extension (assuming single mission).

It also might be simpler to use (or alter) the original mission or use a test mission instead of a save file. What mission are you playing? Are you using any mods, and what kind of sub are you after?

[NFunky]

Thanks for the fast reply Molon Labe. I've uploaded the file to CADC, here's the link:

http://www.commanders-academy.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39734

It was played with LWAMI 3.09 and nothing else. The original mission was one I designed to help myself learn long range TMA and one-on-one ASW combat. It's extremely basic, with no units other than my 688i and a randomly chosen and placed enemy sub (Akula-I Imp., Agosta, Ming, Han, Delta IV or Typhoon).

The save-game is right at the point where I'm about to fire. Solution is rock solid, but I only have a TA contact. Sub is still unclassifiable, but the TPK that works best with my solution is 10, so I am assuming it's a D/E boat. It is a little more than 18 kyds away and hasn't heard me yet. Tubes 1 and 2 are targeted and presets set to RTE 16000, depth for 1 is 200, depth for 2 is 600, speed 55, floor 3000, active and snake. Tubes 1 and 2 are flooded/equalized, but the muzzle doors aren't open yet.

If you could give it a quick try that would be great. I have played this save-game a couple times now and I have only managed to kill the sub twice, and neither time was very elegant. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[Molon Labe]

I missed too.

This is mostly because of the mod version, which means its my fault, not yours. :oops: In 3.09 I rescaled the ASLs of all the submarines, and I took it a little bit too far. Acquisition range for this target, as you've said, is down to about 1000yd, and that's too small. You can expect a minimum acquisition range of about 1nm for the ADCAP in 3.10, which is large enough that you won't miss because it snakes the wrong way at the wrong time.

Not that it provides much more info, but this issue drew posts 40 and 41 here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147970&page=3).

I recommend using a Kilo for target practice instead for the time being. It's not impossible to hit an Agosta by any means, but it's pretty easy to miss with an accurate shot.

[NFunky]

Cool, thanks a lot man. I was sure it was just my poor tracking skills so this allows me to relax a bit on that subject.

Is 3.10 available yet? I haven't heard about it, but I'm also not the best at keeping up to date on all the different forums.

[Molon Labe]

Very soon. OneShot had been working on an installer package but RL got in the way and now he's gone for 7 weeks again. I think what we're going to do is forgo the installer package and release it as a compressed archive.

[TLAM Strike]

Is 3.10 available yet? I haven't heard about it, but I'm also not the best at keeping up to date on all the different forums.
Not yet. It should be available in some form very soon.

EDIT: Yea what ML said... ;)

[NFunky]

Hey, I just noticed that CADC has three 3.10 files in its repository. There's 3.10 documentation, 3.10 D&D update and 3.10 graphics update. There's no name, so are these actual LWAMI files or something else called 3.10?

[TLAM Strike]

Hey, I just noticed that CADC has three 3.10 files in its repository. There's 3.10 documentation, 3.10 D&D update and 3.10 graphics update. There's no name, so are these actual LWAMI files or something else called 3.10?

ML might be uploading them now. Stay tuned...

EDIT: NVM, those are envelopment builds we were using. ML should be uploading them in a few days.

[Molon Labe]

Hey, I just noticed that CADC has three 3.10 files in its repository. There's 3.10 documentation, 3.10 D&D update and 3.10 graphics update. There's no name, so are these actual LWAMI files or something else called 3.10?


Those are files I *quietly* sent to OneShot using the CADC since the upload size limit is through the roof. It ended up being much easier than using filefront.