Gentlemen, I need your help

[jadervason]

Does anyone know what was the fastest submarine that was equipped with a surface-target deck gun? Fastest in terms of submerged speed.

[TLAM Strike]

As far as I can tell.

US Mackerel class (WWII): 11 Knots

UK L class (WWII): 10.5 knots

Peru Abtao class (Post-WWII): 10 knots

UK River, S, U and V Class (WWII): 10 Knots

[jadervason]

Not very impressive, eh? Thanks for your help. I guess there never was, and will never be a fast boat with a deck gun.

Edit: Apparently the Surcouf could make 10 knots?!

[TLAM Strike]

Not very impressive, eh? Thanks for your help. I guess there never was, and will never be a fast boat with a deck gun.

Edit: Apparently the Surcouf could make 10 knots?!

Didn't think to check the French subs. Or WWI boats, which share many similarities to post war subs.

The UK R class submarine of WWI could make 14 knots dived but its 4in deck gun was never fitted because of the drag. The R class was designed to hunt U-Boats making her the first class of Hunter-Killer submarines ever. They had sensitive hydrophones on the bow, a single screw aft and very streamlined hulls/sails, one of them would not have looked out of place in the 1950s.

UK E class subs of WWI could make 10.25 knots dived.

US N and O classes could make 11 knots dived. K, L, M-1 and AA-1 classes could make 10.5 knots. Interestingly the US L boats had in an attempt to reduce the drag of the gun built it so it retracted into the hull. Apparently this was inspired by the Germans.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08040.htm

The WWI German U 66 class could make 11 knots dive, I think it had a retractable gun.

But no, you are never going to find a sub with a deck gun that has a high submerged speed.

[jadervason]

Good stuff my friend. I was aware of the hunter-killer R class. Neat little boats they were.

I hate to be a pest, but among the 'fast' boats, what was the largest gun fitted? I suppose the prerequisite is Type XXI performance or comparable or better.

[TLAM Strike]

I'm guessing you mean of the subs designed for high speed like the Type XXI and not the subs listed above? Of the subs listed above the obvious answer is the Surcouf with its 203mm guns.

The winner I think is the Soviet Zulu I and Whiskey IIs which had twin 57mm and twin 25mm AA guns.

The Type XXI had 20mm cannons.

The Japanese I-201 class had 2 25mm cannons. The Ha-201 had a single 7.7mm machine gun.

[jadervason]

A good hypothetical historical battle might be Surcouf vs one of the British M Class boats. Talk about a glass cannon...

So I guess the boat of my dreams is the Zulu I? It had a snorkel right? I guess you can take down a merchant with a 57mm gun, if you're determined...

[TLAM Strike]

Interesting thing about the M Class was it had to be submerged to reload its cannon.

Some Zulu's were fitted with a snorkel. But it wasn't standard issue on all boats at first, it took a while before sufficient snorts were manufactured.

[jadervason]

Is that so? I would have thought they would have left the shipyard with a snorkel, being a slightly larger brother of the Type XXI. The Whiskey I know was retrofitted but I though the Zulu was designed from the keel up as 'true' submarine.

[TLAM Strike]

Is that so? I would have thought they would have left the shipyard with a snorkel, being a slightly larger brother of the Type XXI. The Whiskey I know was retrofitted but I though the Zulu was designed from the keel up as 'true' submarine.
Hmmm... you might be right on that. The first Zulus were not launched until 3 years after the First Whiskeys.

[jadervason]

Taking a few looks around the internet, that double-57mm cannon was a hell of a weapon! But could it bring down a C3 cargo? It was loaded with Tracer-FRAG rounds.

Tell you what, your best bet against an aircraft is to dive, but that sucker would for damn sure make any attacking plane think twice.

Thanks, Strike, for giving me a new toy to lust after. I hope one day I can captain one in SHIII.

[TLAM Strike]

Depends on whats in it's holds. If its ammo then its possible. But I doubt it would get the chance. NATO wouldn't allow ships to run unescorted in time of war.

Actually US planes in WWII started getting guided ASMs believe it or not! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_%28guided_bomb%29) Trying to defend against a P-2V armed with a 20nm range missile using guns would be quite hopeless. Interestingly the Harpoon was designed for that, back when Soviet subs had to surface to fire its missiles the 'poon was made so P-3s could hit them fast from beyond visual range.

If you want one for SHIII, I have a 3d model of one laying around but its the no guns version. I have no idea on how to convert one for SHIII as I don't own it, but if you have any experience with doing that I would be willing to release it. I also have the Whiskey and several other 1950's subs.

There is a picture of my Whiskey here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/album.php?u=210904

[jadervason]

A missile of that size on a pure pursuit course is, itself, a target. If you couldn't get your ass underwater fast enough (highly unlikely) then you had damn well better get your guns around! Thank goodness for the 25mm, I suppose.

As far as sinking a C3, well that was exaggeration. Firstly, you'd use all the torpedoes necessary to bring down a C3. But for that lone, 1800 ton, unescorted merchant vessel so far from home...I think a 57mm might do! If you haven't noticed I have a fetish for submarines with cannons. Something about not being defenseless on the surface...

Now, sir, your models are quite impressive. However, I have extremely little experience modifying SHIII, but fortunately (I guess) if someone were to begin on a Zulu class, the Type XXI is a natural starting place. They seem quite similar. I've even found a cutaway drawing of the boat and some interior shots from a surviving ship, if you're into modeling interiors.

Don't you just love the bridge of the Zulu?

[TLAM Strike]

A missile of that size on a pure pursuit course is, itself, a target. If you couldn't get your ass underwater fast enough (highly unlikely) then you had damn well better get your guns around! Thank goodness for the 25mm, I suppose.

As far as sinking a C3, well that was exaggeration. Firstly, you'd use all the torpedoes necessary to bring down a C3. But for that lone, 1800 ton, unescorted merchant vessel so far from home...I think a 57mm might do! If you haven't noticed I have a fetish for submarines with cannons. Something about not being defenseless on the surface...

Now, sir, your models are quite impressive. However, I have extremely little experience modifying SHIII, but fortunately (I guess) if someone were to begin on a Zulu class, the Type XXI is a natural starting place. They seem quite similar. I've even found a cutaway drawing of the boat and some interior shots from a surviving ship, if you're into modeling interiors.

Don't you just love the bridge of the Zulu?

Funny you should mention interiors...

I have not modeled an interior in a long time (Since I was making stuff for Virtual Sailor like 5 years ago.) But I have a full interior of the Zulu sitting around untextured! But its a .GMAX file and for some reason my computer will not run GMAX anymore.


Whenever I see the bridge of the Zulu I cringe at the though of that extra drag. :nope: It vaguely reminds me of the bridge of 1930's submarines.

[TLAM Strike]

Hay I got old GMAX working...

Here are a few pics of the Zulu interior I never finished...

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6332/zulu01.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/zulu01.jpg/)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8318/zulu02.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/zulu02.jpg/)

It looks kinda strange since I removed every poly you would not see from the inside. But you get the picture of what I was going for...

[jadervason]

If it makes you feel any better, the windows fold down. :O:

Reading wikipedia's link (which is in russian, my best guesses are with google's translator's help)...the Zulu was no slouch. Twice as large as a type IX and even a little bigger than a Type XXI, she could sail 22000 (miles? km? I want to believe they're nautical miles) on the surface at 9.2 knots, and she could go 440 units at 2.1 knots, or she could hold out for 16 units at her maximum submerged speed of 16 knots (presumably she could go an hour at full tilt, not quite the hour and a half the Type XXI could sustain). She was limited to 6 knots under some circumstance I'm not sure of, though I want to say snorkeling or masts up, and under some other circumstance she could make 15 knots. The snorkel does not seem to be a mast-type, (http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/dts/611/611%20shema%20-1.gif) so I'm led to believe she could do 15 knots snorkeling and 6kts with her 5 or 6 masts up. On the surface she could make 17kts. Her working/test depth was 200 meters.

These boats kept their 57mm and 25mm cannons until some point in 1956. Just begging for some ambitious modder to send them back in time and put them under Onkel Karl's thumb...

[jadervason]

That's neat stuff, Strike. Why, praytell, did you initiate the models of the Zulu?

[TLAM Strike]

That's neat stuff, Strike. Why, praytell, did you initiate the models of the Zulu? I was building submarines for a game called Virtual Sailor. I made a Japanese Midget Sub, a US WWII era S Boat and a GUPPY class sub with partial interiors (the midget had a full interior) and I really wanted to do a Russian boat. I picked the Zulu but I lost interest in VS when Dangerous Waters came out so I never finished the interior.

These boats kept their 57mm and 25mm cannons until some point in 1956. Just begging for some ambitious modder to send them back in time and put them under Onkel Karl's thumb...

Bah 1956! Here is some trivia to amaze your friends! When was the last submarine armed with a deck gun decommissioned? Give up? 2000!

The Peruvian Lobo class (also called the Abtao class).

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7249/84789573.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/84789573.jpg/)

Two of these subs carried 5 in guns while two were only armed with torpedoes. They were US designed and built at Electric Boat. As you can see their hull design was very heavily influenced by the US GUPPY Boats.

[jadervason]

YGBSM.

Surely these submersible cruisers were detoothed sometime before 2000. :hmmm:

Are you telling me there was a 90's modernized diesel-electric submarine that had a 5 inch gun?!

EDIT: Nevermind.
http://media.shipspotting.com/uploads/thumbs/rw/438614_800/Ship+Photo+BAP+Abtao++%28SS42%29.jpg


Well, I guess the only question now is how fast could she go? Stop toying with my heart strings, Strike...

[TLAM Strike]

Abtao class:
Dis: 825 standard, 1400 dived
Dim: 127x22x14m
Weapons: 1 5in/25. 6 533mm torpedo tubes (4/2)
Machinery: 2 GM 278A Diesels; 2 400 bhp electric motors; 2 shafts.
Speed 16 surfaced; 10 dived
Oil Fuel; 45 tons
range; 5000 miles at 10 knots surfaced
crew; 40

Like I said amaze your friends! :D

[jadervason]

My question is 'exactly what the hell kind of aircraft was that gun designed to engage?' :o Even a shturmovik would be vaporized simply by being caught in the gunsight, let alone hit with a shell...

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-25_mk10_wet-mount_pic.jpghttp://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_57mm-78_zif-31_SM24_pic.jpg

The 57mm still looks a hell of a lot meaner, though. In addition, all four of the Abtao class boats were renamed early in their careers. Didn't anyone tell those sailors in Peru that it's bad luck to rename a boat? Now, the 80's modernized Abtaos were probably faster, but I can't find any data that lists them as faster than 10 or 11 knots.

Project 611, you're still my favorite.

[TLAM Strike]

IIRC the 5in gun's on US subs like the one pictured, while DP were never issued AA shells and were thus relegated to surface attack only.

[jadervason]

From what I understand, it was a single purpose AA gun, and no armor piercing ammunition was created for the 5"/25 caliber naval guns. Therefore if subs never received any anti-aircraft rounds, they had what we'd refer to as high-explosive or high-capacity rounds with a point detonator. The only difference between the AA round and the HE round was the fuze, the AA rounds could be time fuzed or proximity fuzed...the shell was essentially the same.

In any case on a submarine the elevation was limited to 40 degrees, which would have had an impact on AA use. Based on the fact there were no smaller guns mounted to the Abtao, I think it's safe to say the 5 inch gun was not really intended for AA work. But if not, then why'd they mount it to the back of the thing? :hmmm: Closest it could come to the nose was 22 degrees.

[TLAM Strike]

Yes the rounds for that gun were intended for Sampans and Trawlers and had a point fuse as you say.

I don't know why they mounted it on the stern. Some US subs had it mounted there. Maybe it increased submerged performance slightly, or kept the flow noise away from the hydrophones, or minimized the shock to the hydrophones when the gun fired. Obviously from the picture I posted it turned out to be a good move since they installed a large sonar on the bow during a refit. I imagine that sonar was far more useful the gun.

[jadervason]

The sonar was certainly more valuable, but in terms of tactics I don't know if it was truly more useful than the gun. After all, most targets that would be capable of withstanding the gunfire would probably be able to hear a sonar pulse as well.

[TLAM Strike]

The sonar was certainly more valuable, but in terms of tactics I don't know if it was truly more useful than the gun. After all, most targets that would be capable of withstanding the gunfire would probably be able to hear a sonar pulse as well.
Don't forget the passive capabilities of the sonar, enemy warships wouldn't hear that.

[jadervason]

I've often wondered how the passive sonar systems and the hydrophones interact, especially on an old school sub like one of these two. Or whether the active radar set could find surface ships, or only aircraft.

[TLAM Strike]

This may interest you to answer some of your sonar questions.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html

As for radars it depended on what was fitted. US Boats had both air and surface search radars. Not sure about other countries.

[jadervason]

Great link. Extremely informative. Apparently the Zulu class and all it's Type XXI brethren were virtually inaudible below cavitation speed, if running on batteries. THAT'S when the Abtao class' sonar would have come in handy, because you couldn't find another elektroboot without it (if he weren't snorkeling)

Against a nuclear submarine the elektroboots have had a detection advantage when running silent but they could probably never hope to catch one if it sprinted. Then again, it's the speed of the torpedo that would matter at that point.

Do you know of any games/simulations that featured the Zulu or Whiskey as a playable class?

[TLAM Strike]

Against a nuclear submarine the elektroboots have had a detection advantage when running silent but they could probably never hope to catch one if it sprinted. Then again, it's the speed of the torpedo that would matter at that point. That is why the SUBROC was developed, its hard to outrun a missile. Although I don't know of any US smokeboats that were fitted with the SUBROC as the USN went over to Nucs very quick. Russian diesels could carry their version though.

Do you know of any games/simulations that featured the Zulu or Whiskey as a playable class? There are none to my knowledge.

[jadervason]

That's a thought, a 10-tube Zulu class loaded with 8 533mm anti-submarine missiles, just sitting there at 200 meters listening and bogarting 30 some miles of territory with nuclear or merely guided ordnance...

[TLAM Strike]

The sonar on the Zulu was junk suitable only for anti-surface warfare. It wasn't until the 1980's the the Russians decided that ASW might be a good mission for Subs.


I can't get that text to stop being underlined! :rotfl2:

[jadervason]

I guess SUBSIM has automatic emphasis-adding software.

Now, you're probably right, But I figured hydrophones are hydrophones. I guess you wouldn't get range or probably elevation with Type XXI hydrophones/sonar though...but they were quite sensitive.

[TLAM Strike]

I guess SUBSIM has automatic emphasis-adding software.

Now, you're probably right, But I figured hydrophones are hydrophones. I guess you wouldn't get range or probably elevation with Type XXI hydrophones/sonar though...but they were quite sensitive.

Sensitive? They got nothing on this, look at how big a hydrophone is needed in the 50s to hunt submarines!
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4586/0824002.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/0824002.jpg/)
They had to remove four of the bow tubes to install that. That was a SSK refit as part of the GUPPY program to upgrade old Fleet Boats.

[jadervason]

Well, was that kit designed for listening for smokeboats (as you colorfully refer to them) or nukeyalar subs? General consensus is, "yeah you'd need Superman's eardrums to hear an electric boat" (bets are off if he's in another sound layer), meanwhile the nuclear sub(s) of that day were quite loud and louder still if they used that excess power for speed.

[TLAM Strike]

I think this was covered in that Link I posted. The idea was to place SSKs in a line across the GIUK gap where their sonar would use convergence zones (30 NM sound bounces) to hear approaching subs, either they would hear the pumps of a Nuc or the diesels of a Smokeboat when its forced to snort (couple a hours a day to maintain a battery charge).

If a Smokeboat went silent the SSK would have a hard time to search for it, but it could just wait for it to snort again (a diesel back then could only make around a 100 NM on batteries going dead slow). The diesel boat snorts again and one of the other SSKs in the picket line detects it and calls for a P-2V or P-3 for the kill.

This job a eventually replaced by SOSUS and SURTASS.

[jadervason]

I think this was covered in that Link I posted. The idea was to place SSKs in a line across the GIUK gap where their sonar would use convergence zones (30 NM sound bounces) to hear approaching subs, either they would hear the pumps of a Nuc or the diesels of a Smokeboat when its forced to snort (couple a hours a day to maintain a battery charge).

If a Smokeboat went silent the SSK would have a hard time to search for it, but it could just wait for it to snort again (a diesel back then could only make around a 100 NM on batteries going dead slow). The diesel boat snorts again and one of the other SSKs in the picket line detects it and calls for a P-2V or P-3 for the kill.

This job a eventually replaced by SOSUS and SURTASS.

So then our argument comes full circle, in which a Zulu class could almost certainly detect a snorkeling Zulu class, ginormous snout or no. Getting those 8 SUBROCskis on target is a different matter. Whether it could detect a nuclear boat is dubious and even unlikely.

I suspect you would know better than I, but my sources at least indicate the Type XXI and family could go 300+ NM on their batteries. However, that is a span across several days, and if they snorted once per night as you suggest they might be more vulnerable.

To think, you complained about the drag of the Zulu's bridge, look at the nose of that thing!

[TLAM Strike]

Wait... that SSK bow is drag with purpose! :up:

If you want something more streamlined check out the Fleet Snorkel conversion...

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3978/torsk.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/torsk.jpg/)

... still pack'in more sonar than the Zulu... :03:

[jadervason]

Why must you hate the Zulu so? :cry:

My cannons will cheer me up.

DakkaDakkaDakkaDakka! DakkaDakkaDakkaDakka!:lurk:

Shot your snorkel off, Strike. Won't be complaining about that enclosed bridge for a while!

[TLAM Strike]

Why must you hate the Zulu so? :cry: Because the Whiskey was an all around more versatile sub. There were guided missile, and radar picket versions plus a fuel cell and SS-N-16 SUBROC test bed. Also it was widely exported.

The only major sub-class of the Zulu was the one armed with a pair of Scuds.

[msxyz]

Hay I got old GMAX working...

Here are a few pics of the Zulu interior I never finished...

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6332/zulu01.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/zulu01.jpg/)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8318/zulu02.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/zulu02.jpg/)

It looks kinda strange since I removed every poly you would not see from the inside. But you get the picture of what I was going for...

Great work! Why did you model the interiors of a Zulu? Was it for a total conversion MOD? :)

[TLAM Strike]

Great work! Why did you model the interiors of a Zulu? Was it for a total conversion MOD? :) It was for a game called "Virtual Sailor" but I lost intrest in it before I finished the interior for the Zulu.