[REL] Alternate Campaign Ending Screens

[kylania]

Some members of the community had expressed concerns about the perceived glorification of the current Major and Minor German victory campaign ending screens. This mod attempts to alleviate that perception by replacing both ending screens with this less political one:


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1213/armistice.jpg

Download: http://www.filefront.com/16208687/AlternateEndingScreen.zip/

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice work here :yep::up:
Now if I could only get to the end of a career :dead::dead:

[conus00]

I don't see anything wrong with the original files. As a matter of fact they kinda flow with all the "motivational" posters of that era...

[kylania]

Others felt quite strongly (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168173) about them in many ways. :DL This mod was just an attempt to offer an alternative for some. One guy even listed the original ending screens as a reason to uninstall SH5. Now he doesn't have to. :D

[conus00]

Oh, I missed that thread completely.
Well, to each his own. I, for one, couldn't care less about the "flags and glorification of the Third Reich".

I guess some people are too sensitive. I'm not. :D

[Ducimus]

It's not about sensitivty, its about keeping perspective.

But here is a chellenge for you. If you don't think theres anything wrong with that one end screen, or symbolism of the time period, then I DARE YOU to fly a swaztika outside your house, and play music from the reich really loudy out the window. And to the first person or phone call you get, tell them your a historical renactor, and see how far that gets you in the real world with real people.

edit:
Oh, I missed that thread completely.
Well, to each his own. I, for one, couldn't care less about the "flags and glorification of the Third Reich".

I guess some people are too sensitive. I'm not. :D


Yes, some of us know that. Your the one who orginally had the signiture of themselves as the happy nazi. For the record, i didn't petition to have that sybmolsim removed , but i do think you have a love of the regiem.

edit:
I don't see anything wrong with the original files. As a matter of fact they kinda flow with all the "motivational" posters of that era...



OK.. enjoy your "motivational" posters.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters1.htm
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

Feeling motivated yet? No?

http://fruitfly.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/nazi-toture.jpg
http://sonicbomb.com/albums/album53/Nazi_german_atrocities.jpg

How about now?

[kylania]

It's not about sensitivty, its about keeping perspective. ... I DARE YOU

I made this mod specifically for you and anyone that felt the same as you.

Speaking of perspective though, there's a huge difference between a toned down Nazieqsue ending screen in a video game and what you're daring people to do. To compare that single image to being a Neo-Nazi in real life or even contemplating that the image could in any way lead to Holocaust denial (as that thread turned to) is probably the most ludicrous idea I've read on these forums.

I made this mod so that you wouldn't feel as uncomfortable about an in game subject you seem to be extremely passionate about, in return you told me to be a Neo-Nazi for a day. Fair enough. I afraid I can't fully understand your point of view to the lengths that you have taken it, but please try to accept this mod in the spirit in which it was created. No offense to you or any one or any group affected by history was meant.

[Ducimus]

Im pissed at two things in this thread

Your subtle jabs (perceived my ass!) and Conus's ignorance.

[robbo180265]

Overreaction

intr.v., -act·ed, -act·ing, -acts.
To react with unnecessary or inappropriate force, emotional display, or violence.

overreaction o'ver·re·ac'tion n.
overreactive o'ver·re·ac'tive adj.

[Ducimus]

Overreaction

intr.v., -act·ed, -act·ing, -acts.
To react with unnecessary or inappropriate force, emotional display, or violence.

overreaction o'ver·re·ac'tion n.
overreactive o'ver·re·ac'tive adj.

Considering people seem to think things like this is apporpiate and OK
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2109/signaturet.jpg

I think not. That particular flag was embellished with the nazi eagle. So that user went the extra mile. Conus has been known to go the same distance. It is really not neccessary, is in poor taste, and reflects poorly on the community as a whole.

Then i consider the use of the world "percieved" in the original post. What kylania is implying is
- he doesn't think there is anything wrong with this (http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg). I raise these points here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1368648&postcount=32) and here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1369604&postcount=61) to the contrary.
- he is at the same time, discrediting other view points which are entirely valid. To say something is "percieved" is to say it has no validity or basis.
- is in effect saying, "here you go, STFU", only on the sly and subtle.

I take issue with that. There really was no need for subtle jabs.

I'll leave it at that, ive spoken my mind, and there is nothing more to say.

[kylania]

Then i consider the use of the world "percieved" in the original post. What kylania is implying is
- he doesn't think there is anything wrong with this (http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg). I raise these points here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1368648&postcount=32) and here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1369604&postcount=61) to the contrary.

I don't. It's a picture in a computer game. Just like I don't think there's anything wrong with the pictures of the medals in game or the Kreigsmarine posters on all the walls. Nor do I think someone with a swastika in their signature is a Nazi or supports the Nazi party or anything they did, in the context of this forum and game. If that signature was on Stormfront, sure maybe that does mean he's a Nazi, but not here.

Even though I don't agree with your point of view the first thing I did was try to help you avoid having to see the image. In return, I get... this... :hmmm:


I - he is at the same time, discrediting other view points which are entirely valid. To say something is "percieved" is to say it has no validity or basis.
- is in effect saying, "here you go, STFU", only on the sly and subtle.

(n) perception (a way of conceiving something) "Luther had a new perception of the Bible"

No, when I said "perceived" it meant that I was trying to keep things neutral, as in some people viewed the image one way while others viewed it another way. I was trying not to give credit to either viewpoint, since both are valid to those who view them that way.

You, and others, perceive that image is offensive. I, and others, don't perceive it to be. Everyone sees what they want to in that picture. I see an image that's meant to represent a victory for the German Navy in a computer simulation game. You see Holocaust denial and Neo-Nazi recruitment and glorification of Nazi symbolism. That's just something you're going to have to deal with, but don't take your anger and try to convince yourself I was telling you to shut up and go away. That's entirely incorrect and rather insulting.

[conus00]

@ Ducimus
I have no idea what got into you and I almost feel that it is below me to respond to the pointless accusation of you pretty much calling me a neo-nazi and ignorant but let me try...

You are setting a judgment on me without even knowing me.
Talking about ignorance.
STRIKE ONE.

I, unlike you, have lived under totalitarian regime (even not as bad as Nazi's Third Reich) for almost half of my life and witnessed firsthand what such a regime can do to people. I hated every day of my adult life of living in such a conditions you can hardly imagine. Yet you call me ignorant and pro-totalitarian regime lover.
Hmmmm.
STRIKE TWO

My signature was created as an exercise in Photoshop and has nothing to do with my beliefs or political affiliation. As a matter off fact I do not see potraying myself as an uboat commander as anything wrong. The same way I have picture of myself wearing RAF uniform in Il-2. I believe that uboat captains were no less heroes than Russian, American or British soldiers. they went to war out of patriotism and because they believed that they were fighting for the right cause. They just happened to be on the loosing side...
BTW comparing my banner and the one posted and accusing me to "be known to go the same distance" is not comparing apples to apples.
STRIKE THREE

I think you are overreacting on a simple issue and, for reason unknown to me, are taking this way too personally. I do not know your background so I will not judge you but, with all respect STOP ATTACKING ME. I have not done anything to you...
I feel like I should report this personal attack to the admins but I am fair guy and will try to reason with you first.
Whatever happened to you today and caused this uncalled for behavior, neither I or kylania are the cause. You might disagree with us but there are more civilized ways how to do it. Calling us "ignorant" and "neo-nazis" is taking it little too far IMO.

Just for reference, and I have said it here on subsim repeatedly, I do not see use of swastika and nazi symbols for historical reasons as anything wrong. If you want to rile against it you may as well attack hammer and sickle. There were huge, if not bigger, numbers of people killed in gulags then in concentration camps yet you don't seem to be too worried about it.

Lastly, so you don't feel that I only disagree with you: YES I consider the banner in your last post offensive and excessive......

[Stevepine]

yeah...Total over reaction.

Should we ban all games with the hammer and sickle then? Stalin killed millions of innocent people as well, yes?

The Americans dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan was pretty damn horrific if you were a Japanese civilian.

So should we ban all games like medal of honor : passific assault which glorify the war in the pacific ?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Personally I don't have an issue with the current in-game ending screens, at least the ones that I have seen. And I am the guy who plays the game without the swastikas, or any other stuff like that. Don't want any part of it, and I am okay with what UBI did in it's place.

We can't take this game to literally, if we did we may as well not even play. When I leave my computer after a session of Silent Hunter 3-5, I don't dawn a U-Boat Commanders\Fleetboat Captain's hat, it's a game and I leave it at that.

But what the series has done is given me a much better appreciation\understanding of naval history in general, an in particular what submariners went through. Yes there were some in the Kriegsmarine who were ardent Nazi's, but the vast majority were not, and just fighting for their country.

[Westbroek]

Aaaaanywhooooo... Thanks for the alternatives Kylania. If, when I finish the game, I am horribly offended, I will install this mod so that the next time I finish (hah hah) I will not be. Cheers, bud.
W
:salute:

[Scurvy Dog]

These posts show we are aware of what happened in the past and how relevent this issue is currently. If the game had been completely politically correct nothing of this sort of discussion would have occured so soon. Remembering the horrors of WWI and WWII is important in understanding our most recent histories that many of our parents and grandparents lived, fought and perhaps died through. Understanding these crucial times; "What happened?" in the Twentieth Century, is a major quest for me and occupies much of my free time. And there's not much left of it; I'm sixty years old for gosh sakes!
I'm one of those sub-simmers who believes the Silent Hunter series offers a lot of insight into those times. During the Pacific War my father was in the New Guinea Campaign, the Battle of Leyte and Luzon and the occupation of Japan. I always wanted to feel something of the experiences he felt while hopping from island to island like he hopped freight trains durring the Great Deppression. You can appreciate why I love Wolves of the Pacific.

The modders at these forums have been making this sim a thing of beauty! I add everything from big band jazz and patriotic girlie pinups to Bob Hope and Tokyo Rose; just adding more spice to the flavor of the expeience. We can't thank enough these guys like Sober, w_Clear, kriller2, Ducimus, TDW, fred8615 and the rest!
So that's where I'm coming from. I want "immersion"; not the religious kind, just baptism under fire; the simmulated kind. Which brings me to the argument and my two bit apology for the use of controversial content.
For players who care about these issues it is a matter of the kind and the degree of historical accuracy simmulated in the game. Some want a simmulator that recreates the machines of war (submarines) as well as the strategic and opperational structures of command during WWII. Immersion (not a bad discription for the experiance) for them depends on how well objects in the game work and how they work together to create that feeling of real input and real results. These objects include the physics of the game, sensors, controls and instuments of all varieties. It includes the boyancey of ships, waves of the ocean, winds, clouds and sunsets. It includes the precise logistic characteristics and explosive powers of various weapons of mass destruction used in wartimes. The game is mastery of the techniques to hunt, sink and survive the war.The appearance of an Imperial Japanese flag over the horizon; the Rising Sun, brings their senses to alert and calls them to take appropriate battle action stations, etc.
For another group of sub-simmers the technical/physical aspects of the game are important but for a slightly differant kind and degree of "immersion". These players want to recreate an experiance of "the times", to feel like the real "actors" on the stage of history's great struggles. Any object or thing to broaden the historical context and make one comprehend the particular "Zeitgeist" (Time/Thought) of that era would seem fair to reproduce. These would include audio and visual referances to the time and place such as recordings of radio entertainment and news broadcasts, political speeches, and the popular music of the times. It would also include realistic representations of clothing, uniforms, badges, medals, letters, messages,newspapers, identification logos of businesses, tattoos, photographs, motion picture films, posters, pennants and flags. And unfortunately or not; the symbols of the regime.
Playing Silent Hunter 4 and Silent Hunter 5 is a novel experiance. It gives you leave to pretend to be a captain of a submarine during wartime. Controversial imagery and sound make their appearances less in SH4 because players don't want to be reminded of "yellow peril" racist propoganda on the part of the allies before and after the Japanese attacks on mainland China (ex.Nanking) and Pearl Harbor. I personally would like to see some anti-Japonese posters hanging in the U.S. subs simply because these were the things being propogated at this time. I would pretend to ask myself the question; "Are (Were) these people really like this?" And then; "Do (Did) we really think about people in this way?" Would I torpedo that next Japanese Passenger Liner in good conscience? Either way you sink the ships.
In a slightly different approach SH5 can bring the same spicey meal to our galley of hungry German sailors. Which kind of captain would you choose to play; a patriotic defender of the beloved fatherland, respected by crew whether they're Nazis or not and constantly reminded by posters on the wall and harraunging of Hitler on the radio that you're doing the bidding of Fascist pigs who control the destiny of your country? Or you are pretending to be the perfect instrument of the Third Reich in it's quest for world hegemony and to hell with those rumours about the death camps; it's not my department.
Either way you sink ships.
I would prefer to play with the added moral tensions and ambiguities these thought experiments afford the player. It feels more real to me and "immersive". And I want more of it.
To finish an already too long post; I hope everyone enjoys whatever he or she gets by playing these wonderful sub sims. I see nothing but fair skies ahead! :sunny:

[BerntBalchen]

There is a differense between farting and shait in your pants Ducimus. :D

[MattDizzle]

I like how its considered horrific to shoot someone, or gas someone, but by playing this game we're glorifying the crap out of people burning to death and drowning in the icy sea with no hope of rescue. Hypocrisy much? War fantasy?

Soldiers/Sailors or not, its still people dying. And its still just as horrible. Im not saying we shouldnt play, but dont sink a (fake, electronic) ship with 1500 people on it and turn around and freak out about a shape on a flag, have some perspective.

[conus00]

I like how its considered horrific to shoot someone, or gas someone, but by playing this game we're glorifying the crap out of people burning to death and drowning in the icy sea with no hope of rescue. Hypocrisy much? War fantasy?

Soldiers/Sailors or not, its still people dying. And its still just as horrible. Im not saying we shouldnt play, but dont sink a (fake, electronic) ship with 1500 people on it and turn around and freak out about a shape on a flag, have some perspective.
Thank you!

[Se7en]

Great post Scurvy

[THE_MASK]

When i downloaded the radio mod Grossdeutscher Rundfunk , did i want to listen to nazi propaganda . No and besides i cannot understand german . It was just for the immersion factor . But should nazi symbols be in someones sig on this site , definately not .

[Sepp von Ch.]

Thank you Kylania for this nice mod!

[reaper7]

Good link on the origins of the Swastika - Does't have to be just associated with Neo-Nazism.

Did you know that During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division.


http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

[Faamecanic]

IN BEFORE THE LOCK :timeout:

TO each thier own guys ....peace. ITS A FREAKIN GAME.

Duc... I respect you bunches bud... but I would say the very fact that one is enjoying playing a NAZI U BOAT captain in and of itself can be construed as glorifying that time period. Or like I look at it, those men were doing thier jobs.

Sure the Uboatmen got excited when they sank a cargo ship. They got excited because they were doing what they thought was thier part to win a war for thier country. Just like soliders and sailors on our side did.

My father in law... god rest his soul... was a Merchant Marine during WWII. He had two boats shot out from under him. One of which he lost his nephew that was on the same boat as him. He never forgave himself. The stories he had of hearing buzz bombs go over his ship heading to London, or the stories of how 100's of periscopes appeared in the channel on one trip (they were all wooden and set afloat by the germans for psychological warfare, and also to hide the one or two Uboats in the middle of them) were scarry and interesting.

Point is I play this game as I love history. I love subs. I love the bravery exhibited by all sides. I like to play Wagner and German March music on my gramaphone (as well as forbidden Jazz) to immerse me into my game. But by all means that does NOT mean I believe in Nazism or idolize it.

I idolize the brave men and women on both sides.

[Ducimus]

Faamecanic,

That spat was in april. If a thermonuclear explosion was going to occur, it would have happened already. I'm over it, that was 3 months ago, though i still think many people lose perspective on history after the umpteenth rerun of Das Boat. :O:

Ironic how i'm working on my own uboat mod for SH4 now, and i have to say i winced when i put U-181's conning tower emblem as a selectable option. But then, i was never advocating the white washing of history, only the maintaining of perspective. A few too many people seem display that flag in a proud manner, much akin to how an American will display the US flag. The swaztika in that context will always get my goat.

[Faamecanic]

Faamecanic,

That spat was in april. If a thermonuclear explosion was going to occur, it would have happened already. I'm over it, that was 3 months ago, though i still think many people lose perspective on history after the umpteenth rerun of Das Boat. :O:

Ironic how i'm working on my own uboat mod for SH4 now, and i have to say i winced when i put U-181's conning tower emblem as a selectable option. But then, i was never advocating the white washing of history, only the maintaining of perspective. A few too many people seem display that flag in a proud manner, much akin to how an American will display the US flag. The swaztika in that context will always get my goat.


ROFL ...leave it to me to comment on a dead thread.... :haha:

I totally agree with you. Its one thing to keep things in a historical perspective and quite another to glorify it. When I lived in Germany I went to Dachau... I think every american should have to go there (or
Auschwitz). If you have a shread of humanity in you.... it will horrify you to see the depths of depravity men can fall to.

Its one thing to SEE the pictures of corpses piled up to the roof top level... its quite another to be STANDING in the same place while viewing the same picture :cry: :cry: