A SH too far?

[LtRasputin]

I've purchased and been playing SH3 and SH4 for years. When the GWX team vaguely appeared as if they were somehow involved with SH5, I became really hopeful and excited. A GWX-style Atlantic campaign on a evolved SH4 engine with improved AI and more interaction with allied craft / special missions would have been an easy purchase for me.

I checked on SH5 progress and I find out that there's this awful "You must be online" DRM. I don't want to be tethered to the internet just to game. I like to take my laptop outside and chill out to some leisurely sailing and not care how reliable my wireless is at that distance. SH is great with a book and a cool drink or three! I don't want the hours I'm gaming tracked by someone else's license server either. What I am playing, how long, from where on the planet, at what hours is no one's business! I don't understand why people think DRM should be so intrusive and obnoxious that it strongly encourages happy paying customers to see an unlocked version as having much greater value.

Aside from the DRM issue, which is already a showstopper for me, the reviews of this game are *awful*. From the three I've read it's unfinished to a greater degree than SH4 or SH3 was and has blatant non-working functionality, some of it being architectural and not just something an easy mod can cover up.

I was planning to buy this and looking forward to it eagerly, but the DRM issue and exceptionally bad reviews have put me off until (if ever) they both change. I wonder if the SH series can even recover from such a double-misstep. I can only hope someone else will pick up the mantle and subsim will help me find it.

[Feuer Frei!]

Welcome LtRasputin,
have patience, i think you have been "scared off" by the DRM-haters and patches coming out late etc etc....
People are working hard to polish this game to a high sheen, check out the mods section...
also patches are being released to show a level of support to the game by devs, which is very encouraging.
You will find a lot of people here that have no issues running the game, ie internet connection, and a lot of positive posts here as well by people who are "positive" with a lot of justification about SH5.
In no time this game will be what it should be, a great SubSim! :salute:

[IanC]

Welcome LtRasputin,
have patience, i think you have been "scared off" by the DRM-haters and patches coming out late etc etc....


He hasn't been scared off by anything, he's been reading reviews and threads that state the current condition of the game.
But I agree with you that some time in the future, if the modders will continue, SH5 can be a very good subsim.
Oh and welcome aboard LtRasputin!

[CutMe]

He hasn't been scared off by anything, he's been reading reviews and threads that state the current condition of the game.
But I agree with you that some time in the future, if the modders will continue, SH5 can be a very good subsim.
Oh and welcome aboard LtRasputin!

why need moders!!! I mean yes i love our modders and their work!!! but shouldnt the game be .... normal?! playable?!

pls dont understand me wrong.. i really respect modders and love their work! but try to understand my point!

and yes.. why i have to be online for a game always!!!!

[IanC]

why need moders!!! I mean yes i love our modders and their work!!! but shouldnt the game be .... normal?! playable?!
why i have to be online for a game always!!!!

I agree with you, why indeed.

[Lord Justice]

I agree with you, why indeed.Quite simply because no one is ever happy. Times change, as do wants, needs, demands, expectations, ideas, etc ( If ) only we can all have a happy medium. Is their such?
i leave you men to judge what may be!! :hmmm: Bye your leave.

[smilinicon]

I was put off at first, but I am really enjoying SH5 and would rather own it than not.

All I know is I can't see why anyone would even bother making a submarine sim after reading posts from all the ignorant shatheads that pass for simmers these days. It almost lowered my opionion about this website, but there are still some fine folks that post and help people here.

[captainprid]

If you like sims, love U-Boats and are interested in the development of a game through modding, you should definately buy SHV. For all the bullpoop, vitriol and polarised points of view, it is a damn good game and will eventually become an exceptional one.

[conus00]

I'd say wait at least 6 months to year and then buy the game in a sale bin. By then maybe (just MAYBE) there might be GWX5 around to make the game somewhat playable. Until then, if you are expecting something like SH3+GWX or SH4+OM you will be sorely disappointed!

[SilentOtto]

I too will wait a few months (if I finally get it), for the bugs to be solved, mods to be developed, and (maybe) the DRM internet system to be removed.

As I posted in other thread, this is the first SH release that I don't pre-order or buy as soon as it's marketed. My main reason (personal, of course, YMMV) is this: In my main computer I use linux, been using it for years. I keep a partition with windows XP and only boot there to play SH4. I don't have an antivirus, I keep the install as simple as possible since it is ONLY a gaming rig. Now imagine my thoughts, when I see SH5 as an all-time-connected system... I am SCARED to play for hours with the internet connection open. I usually downloaded mods and stuff from my ubuntu system, copy them to the windows partition, and only then boot into XP and set them up. I only connect to the internet from windows to download updates, but with microsoft caring less and less for XP support, I simply don't trust that system AT ALL to be connected for hours, just for the sucking DRM to be on!!


As I said, your mileage may vary, but even though I'd love to test SH5, and am really envious seeing your screenshots and comments on the new sim, I decided I've had enough, and took the only move I feel is sane for me. Stay out of SH5, wait and see if Ubi rethink their strategy, and play (only a little) SH4 from time to time.

Meanwhile, I've gone back to SPWaW (which, by the way, plays perfectly in linux using the wine system), entered online tournament at SP depot, and remember the good old times.

Godspeed to y'all!

Silent Otto off!

[doomlordis]

Welcome LtRasputin,
have patience, i think you have been "scared off" by the DRM-haters and patches coming out late etc etc....
People are working hard to polish this game to a high sheen, check out the mods section...
also patches are being released to show a level of support to the game by devs, which is very encouraging.
You will find a lot of people here that have no issues running the game, ie internet connection, and a lot of positive posts here as well by people who are "positive" with a lot of justification about SH5.
In no time this game will be what it should be, a great SubSim! :salute:

where did your sig picture come from, its cool.

[Kptlt_Lynch]

It's a promo pic for Call of Duty.

[TwistedFemur]

Welcome LtRasputin,
have patience, i think you have been "scared off" by the DRM-haters and patches coming out late etc etc....
People are working hard to polish this game to a high sheen, check out the mods section...
also patches are being released to show a level of support to the game by devs, which is very encouraging.
You will find a lot of people here that have no issues running the game, ie internet connection, and a lot of positive posts here as well by people who are "positive" with a lot of justification about SH5.
In no time this game will be what it should be, a great SubSim! :salute:


We shoudnt need the modders to fix a game. what a racket, release a half finished, broken game and let the unpaid community modders finish it while getting $60 per disk. the A.G. should slap these highwaymen with a fraud charge.

As for dev support my gut tells me that if this patch comes out it will be the last

[mookiemookie]

By then maybe (just MAYBE) there might be GWX5 around to make the game somewhat playable.

Don't hold your breath.

[Lord Justice]

Don't hold your breath.Always the optimist :)

[Watson]

All comes to he who waits. [ heard that somewhere ]

[Arclight]

If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by.

The question is just if it will be OSP or Ubi. :hmmm:

[conus00]

Don't hold your breath.

I don't. That's why I capitalized the second "maybe".
Quite frankly I don't see GWX5 coming out.
But one can hope...

[Stormbringer]

I don't want the hours I'm gaming tracked by someone else's license server either. What I am playing, how long, from where on the planet, at what hours is no one's business!

This is the crux of the issue for me. One can rationalize that such tracking and DRM intrusion isn't a huge deal, or isn't a huge deal compared to playing the game - but if you do so and buy into the system, you've simply created a self-fulfilled prophecy.

This type of intrusive, unwarranted monitoring, wrapped around the assumption that I'm a criminal first and valued customer only when subservient to their inspection; simply disgusts me. Why should I pay money to be treated like a prisoner?

I can understand the excitement about what appears to be a good start for a simulation, but I cannot understand why so many are so willing to give up their privacy to participate in that.

I enjoy playing the SH line of games, up until now, but I'd like the call for "Papieren, Bitte." to remain in the imaginary realm of the simulation and not in the reality of its execution.

[Bothersome]

Anyone who would give up a little liberty to gain security, deserve no security nor liberty.

I'm glad and at piece with my mind about knowing that I didn't support the draconian methods implored by Ubisoft. And as far as I can tell they won't be rewarded by me for this DRM work they produced either, ever.

[IanC]

Anyone who would give up a little liberty to gain security, deserve no security nor liberty.

I'm glad and at piece with my mind about knowing that I didn't support the draconian methods implored by Ubisoft. And as far as I can tell they won't be rewarded by me for this DRM work they produced either, ever.

As a wise Russian once said, They are hearing the thunderous claps of our wallets closing!

[col_Kurtz]

With the whole respect and love for modders...

Should I wait for modders to FINISH and make this game playable for HUMANS or should I buy it?
Why?
Because...
DRM - failed.
Ubisoft - failed again.
SH5 - failed and big mistake.
Players/consumers - game testers for own money?
And the price... to high for a half product.

Just like in the poker game.
I`m waiting... But I`m not going to wait endlessly. DRM off, I will buy. DRM on, forget it!
And maybe on the front of the game box there should be big red capital letters... Only for EXPERIENCED modders from Subsim.com?

[conus00]

And maybe on the front of the game box there should be big red capital letters... Only for EXPERIENCED modders from Subsim.com?

:har::har::har:

[col_Kurtz]

:har::har::har:

Am I wrong?

[Bothersome]

No, you're not wrong.

But to add to the thread some useful knowledge...

If I were even the very best game modder SH5 would ever had seen because of a gift given me straight from the hand of GOD. I would not mod SH5 to fix bugs, but only to add features or content, as that is what modding games was supposed to be about.

But Ubisoft wants the modding community to fix their product while Ubisoft makes all the money.

Now, if it were legal to make money from mods, then modding to fix bugs to make money for me, then I might apply those God given talents.

But Ubisoft doesn't pay modders to fix their bugs. Why not let Ubisoft fix them then? Oh yeah, because you guys think it may be never?

[Takao]

Ah, yes...

In the old days programs were designed by geniuses to be run by idiots. With Ubi, it has become programs designed by idiots to be modded by geniuses.

[conus00]

Am I wrong?
No, you're dead on! I just found the statement hilarious.

[krashkart]

From reading reviews and perusing the threads up here in SH5 Land, for once I am glad I own a computer that is too weak to run a game. There is another aspect to my madness at work here: I have bought many a game in the last ten years and to an extent some of them they were just too flaky. A patch or two to fix minor bugs and add new capabilities to a game is the way it should be done. A series of patches to complete a half-finished game? Sorry, but my $60+ will be better spent taking the parents out to a BBQ dinner.

As for the DRM scheme, respectfully I must decline. Developers and publishers must protect their properties, merchandise and rights from being compromised - and that is perfectly understandable. However, I feel that the DRM implemented in Silent Hunter 5 and other Ubisoft titles is far too restrictive on many would-be customers. Many would-be customers have already pointed out why they don't like the DRM/OSP, so I will just add that my own internet connection doesn't need to be active at all times -- particularly when gaming. System resources are just as tight as my wallet these days.

My only advice/soapbox preaching to any uninitiated gamers is to wait until a few months after the game is released before deciding whether or not to buy it. Do some research on the product. Wait for any game-killing bugs to be patched, or just simply wait a year or two before putting any money into it. By then a good game should have a good following, and plenty of solutions.

[krashkart]

A fine first post, LtRasputin. Welcome aboard Subsim. :salute:

[mobucks]

i tend to buy obscure or niche games like this full price. To support the developers. At first i wanted a refund for SH5 i was so pissed. Anyway it has grown on me, and the potential is there so im glad i bought it, and feel sorry that DRM and price drops has probably screwed the people who put their heart into the series.

Stormbringer wrote:

This is the crux of the issue for me


i understand and agree completely however, untill the day comes where you can't open up your browser and within 3 pages download any game you want, DRM schemes are only going to get worse. That, or PC exclusive awesomeness will simply start to disappear. It is already happening. Sad.

[Stormbringer]

i understand and agree completely however, untill the day comes where you can't open up your browser and within 3 pages download any game you want, DRM schemes are only going to get worse.

DRM will only get worse if people buckle under to it and pay money for software with draconian DRM schemes.

If Ubisoft issued this new DRM scheme and nobody bought their new software with it enabled, the message of our dissatisfaction would be very clear. Quite frankly, everyone who bought an Ubisoft product after this DRM scheme went into affect, is part of the problem.

I'm absolutely sure that wasn't their intention, their interest was to play the various games from Ubisoft. They were willing to concede a little liberty for a little eye candy. Or perhaps they never thought of it in terms of privacy. However, the end effect is to support this DRM methodology and to send a message of positive acceptance, not only to Ubisoft, but to all other developers as well.

In essence, they've green flagged this scheme and others like it, for all developers. People might even look forward to office suites and other productivity software imposing a similar scheme in the future, simply because this test bed worked for Ubisoft.

If people had thought it over first and voted with their wallet, it would have stopped here and Ubisoft would have been forced to drop this intrusive system.

[mookiemookie]

DRM will only get worse if people buckle under to it and pay money for software with draconian DRM schemes.

If Ubisoft issued this new DRM scheme and nobody bought their new software with it enabled, the message of our dissatisfaction would be very clear. Quite frankly, everyone who bought an Ubisoft product after this DRM scheme went into affect, is part of the problem.

I'm absolutely sure that wasn't their intention, their interest was to play the various games from Ubisoft. They were willing to concede a little liberty for a little eye candy. Or perhaps they never thought of it in terms of privacy. However, the end effect is to support this DRM methodology and to send a message of positive acceptance, not only to Ubisoft, but to all other developers as well.

In essence, they've green flagged this scheme and others like it, for all developers. People might even look forward to office suites and other productivity software imposing a similar scheme in the future, simply because this test bed worked for Ubisoft.

If people had thought it over first and voted with their wallet, it would have stopped here and Ubisoft would have been forced to drop this intrusive system.


Oh, boo hoo, call me a scab all you want. Your problems with DRM are yours. Don't expect me to care.

[robbo180265]

DRM will only get worse if people buckle under to it and pay money for software with draconian DRM schemes.

If Ubisoft issued this new DRM scheme and nobody bought their new software with it enabled, the message of our dissatisfaction would be very clear. Quite frankly, everyone who bought an Ubisoft product after this DRM scheme went into affect, is part of the problem.

I'm absolutely sure that wasn't their intention, their interest was to play the various games from Ubisoft. They were willing to concede a little liberty for a little eye candy. Or perhaps they never thought of it in terms of privacy. However, the end effect is to support this DRM methodology and to send a message of positive acceptance, not only to Ubisoft, but to all other developers as well.

In essence, they've green flagged this scheme and others like it, for all developers. People might even look forward to office suites and other productivity software imposing a similar scheme in the future, simply because this test bed worked for Ubisoft.

If people had thought it over first and voted with their wallet, it would have stopped here and Ubisoft would have been forced to drop this intrusive system.

Here's the irony. If the game was still selling at full price then (based on what I'd read here) I wouldn't have bought it. Because the anti DRM crowd wrote bad review after bad review the game got marked down and the asking price became lower and lower on Amazon, until I thought it worth the risk.

In the end I bought it because of the anti DRM crowd, so thanks guys:yeah:

[Arclight]

DRM will only get worse if people buckle under to it and pay money for software with draconian DRM schemes.
The continuation of a DRM scheme depends on it's success and cost-effectiveness, not the success of the software it's tied to.

Some time ago, games began to receive limited installs as a DRM measure; Spore is an excellent example. Public outcry followed, but did people stop buying these games? No, they didn't (some, maybe). Did the strategy survive? No, it didn't.

Following your logic, either no one bought games with that DRM, or every game today has it. Neither is true.

[JMV]

Thanks God, I don't have a powerfull enough computer to play SH5, so I don't regret anything.

I find this DRM thing is against our privacy and freedom. It's a violence done to us custommers. Just like ads on the TV that you have to swallow willy nilly every 10 mn or so.
Even if I could play it, I would not buy it. But, would it not have been for this DRM thing, I would have bought the game, even only just in case I can offer myself a computer in 30 years.

UBI has to know what we custommers want, because utltimately we decide, not vice verca. We don't have to bend to their rules, and a bit of discipline and wit from those that don't like DRM as a principle would be a clear remainder to them. You don't want your freedom or privacy altered, or an unfinished product : have a responsible behavior. Unite and send a clear message to UBI, because at the end we buy or don't buy their stuff. Period.

Plus it's not to the modders to spend 3 years finishing the job they havent done, just because they're greedy. If I buy a game, I don't want an unpolished job, and I don't want to wait 3 years... :cry:

[JMV]

To Bothersome Post #20 :"Anyone who would give up a little liberty to gain security, deserve no security nor liberty."
Post #25 : "But Ubisoft wants the modding community to fix their product while Ubisoft makes all the money."

To TwistedFemur Post #13 :"We shoudnt need the modders to fix a game. what a racket, release a half finished, broken game and let the unpaid community modders finish it while getting $60 per disk. the A.G. should slap these highwaymen with a fraud charge."

To IanC Post #21 : "As a wise Russian once said, They are hearing the thunderous claps of our wallets closing!"

And the best for last :
To Takao #26 : "In the old days programs were designed by geniuses to be run by idiots. With Ubi, it has become programs designed by idiots to be modded by geniuses. "

At least some people are on the same wave length...

Excuse me for expressing me freely now :
This is not Ubisoft only ( which is only a small wheel of the system's structure and mechanics ) I have no doubts that Ubisoft is pressured to from above. ( Neal too probably BTW .. ). It happens all the same to all of us individually, in our everyday live, because we surrendered once to the pressures from above and carry on doing so....from times immemorial... until we are enslaved, and our mouth stiched...
Call it the spiral of inferno, or whatever...:woot:

[Nisgeis]

If people had thought it over first and voted with their wallet, it would have stopped here and Ubisoft would have been forced to drop this intrusive system.

There is no distinction between not buying a game because it's not a good game and not buying a game because it has something else attached to it, in the eyes of the retailer. If all the people that are 'voting with their wallet' have actually emailled Ubisoft to tell them that they aren't buying the software because of DRM, then that is at least trying to let them know. If you have just not bought the game, then you really haven't done anything at all. Really, you've done nothing. Inaction is not an action. Email them, or phone them up if you feel that strongly. For all the effort it takes to post here, you could have whipped up an email and fired it off to Ubi. One email a day would be letting them know of your displeasure.

UBI has to know what we custommers want, because utltimately we decide, not vice verca. We don't have to bend to their rules, and a bit of discipline and wit from those that don't like DRM as a principle would be a clear remainder to them. You don't want your freedom or privacy altered, or an unfinished product : have a responsible behavior. Unite and send a clear message to UBI, because at the end we buy or don't buy their stuff. Period.

They don't have to know anyting. Lots of businesses have gone belly up, simply because they didn't listen to their customers and did not produce the goods they wanted to buy. In an ideal world, yes they would be actively canvassing us, but this is the real world and people run businesses badly, or SH is such a small franchise it's not even worth researching, who knows, but just because we want them to listen to us and it would benefit them to do so, doesn't mean they will.

[TDK1044]

I think people need to look objectively at the situation at the end of the year.

Silent Hunter 5 was a buggy mess at release...just like Silent Hunter III and Silent Hunter IV. It took those games 4 patches and significant modding before they were truly enjoyable.

Silent Hunter 5 has an even tougher journey ahead of it. It's by no means certain that Ubisoft will patch it beyond 1.2, because sales of the game are apparantly not great and the retailers are heavily reducing the price of the game to try and move them off the shelves.

In my opinion, if 1.2 is the final patch then the game is doomed. If Ubisoft authorizes a third patch and considers removing the DRM, then Silent Hunter 5 could become the best subsim ever.

Time will tell. :)

[JMV]

Yeah, that's what I say, it's a stupid world were only quick money prevails...
They have to learn from what we say, otherwise it "should" be bad for them, but it's not like that because we act in a disorganised selfish manner, and they do too.
Spiritually, anyway this planet has never been able to see further than its nose... That will not change soon, and that's why everything is going against the wall... Sorry.

[JMV]

I'm saying that, but the truth is Subsim and the modders are not making any money, Ubisoft does, and waits for us, and watches the job done by the modders to later (?) release another unfinished unpolished work.
I'm sorry, If I do a job like that, all the more if I have the possibility to spy on what the others are doing, and am not doing better, I would get sacked from my job; On the contrary, if they do, we continue buying from them. Where is the logic ? We're only asking for a worse job next time, if any more SH; as THEY, and others, have put computer gaming in general into a niche, for their own benefit, ( not moddable Consoles and the like ) and to our detriment. How many real good polished games on consoles ? About 5%, not more.
The modders on Subsim are doing their job, and for free... and to a quality not achieved by remunarated professionals like they are supposed to be. Money, money,money... I'm telling you, that's all there is to it.
Thank you all Subsim modders, for your devotion, ferventness, comittment, desinterestedness,
and spiritual advancement and comprehention of the RULES before may be anyone else..

[Nordmann]

Don't like it? Don't buy it. But don't expect everyone to share your 'opinion' of the game or its developer.

[JMV]

Too bad. I respect you have the right to stand your own ground. As for myself I know I'm not alone.
Wirh all due respect
JMV.

[janh]

I find this DRM thing is against our privacy and freedom. It's a violence done to us custommers.,,,

I wouldn't worry so much. We'll soon see whether customers liked to be treated that way. And whether the negative press that Ubi has now attracted like a magnet will fade over to their console business. But I noticed that the Ubisoft Corporate web appearance is offline for a few days now, and that the stock price has gone down rapidly in the past couple of days already. It has almost lost what after it had gained a bit in the last 3 month. This will be the wallet of the customers speaking through the investor's reactions. And due date of the Q4 sales is this week... Just see how the majority of the people liked it... and then we can hopefully soon get SHV after the big patch and play single player without any online barriers! And other companies like EA might even back off from such OSP schemes and online DRMs after seeing the result of this debacle unfold in the next 6 months to full extend...

[JMV]

I'm not saying that SH5 could not be a good game ( after 3 years of modding ), they will see for themselves. Sh3 for example, could have been more improved from the beginning had they released more patches, but they didn't, because they were more interrested in watching us do it. They relied somewhat on Subsim modders for their next one...
I wouldn't bet too much on patches. They didn't do it before, because they prefer to watch over the modders shoulder, for new ideas, etc... But for the result of getting SO MANY informations from us, I honestly think they have an issue between professionalism, moral fairness and MONEY.
OK, time will tell, they have the right to make mistakes as we all do, but I hope they have a good wakeup call for their future stategy, because it is time they understand something...
That's the way companies go down too, you know, for the less "sharks like" of them.
Some people don't know were their friends are, that's all I'm saying.
Subsim is their friend, but they don't treat us the same way.
We don't get the return that we should. They can see freely what we do, we never can on the opposite.
Don't you know what kind of game that is already ?? DECEPTION

[Stormbringer]

Following your logic, either no one bought games with that DRM, or every game today has it. Neither is true.

I'm not sure how you came to this outcome from what I stated.

My point was and still is, that if people did not buy any Ubisoft titles (SH5 being a tiny part of this, as Assassin's Creed II and others to come will outsell it...and you should notice that nowhere in my post did I limit this to SH5...) after they imposed this DRM method, then that would send a clear message as to how well the DRM is accepted. If this was a SH5 only boycott, it wouldn't tell Ubisoft anything other than subsims aren't a good line of development anymore.

Now that it has been accepted, at least to a degree, with Ubisoft's new titles (especially Assassin's Creed II), I expect to see similar schemes from other software manufacturers, who would love to have constant demographic information of their user base in order to determine marketing strategy. They have been hesitant to do so in the past, because previous efforts to establish this type of 'phoning home' software has met resistance. The only success before this is with Microsoft Windows itself. When a strategy ceases to meet resistance, the powers that be will push in. It is inevitable.

It is not a black and white condition. It is a condition where acceptance will lead to further implementation - but that doesn't ensure a 100% implementation - nor do I see that I ever stated it that way.

@mookiemookie, I'm sorry you took offense, but I'm going to call it as I see it. Any ire I have is not toward those who want to play these games. I'm one of them! Any ire I have is being forced to choose whether I want to do so at the expense of my privacy. When others support the system, it makes the chance of that system changing all the less likely.

@Nisgeis, I'd love to email Ubisoft about how I feel. Though I've searched their websites far and wide for an email address to do that with and haven't found one.

It looks like I'm either going to have to sign-up for their direct forum and add to the general chatter there on the subject (though I'd rather avoid that), send traditional mail via US post, or phone them up to do so.

If you have a general contact email address, please post it.

[Faamecanic]

I think people need to look objectively at the situation at the end of the year.

Silent Hunter 5 was a buggy mess at release...just like Silent Hunter III and Silent Hunter IV. It took those games 4 patches and significant modding before they were truly enjoyable.

Silent Hunter 5 has an even tougher journey ahead of it. It's by no means certain that Ubisoft will patch it beyond 1.2, because sales of the game are apparantly not great and the retailers are heavily reducing the price of the game to try and move them off the shelves.

In my opinion, if 1.2 is the final patch then the game is doomed. If Ubisoft authorizes a third patch and considers removing the DRM, then Silent Hunter 5 could become the best subsim ever.

Time will tell. :)

Agree with 90% of what you say here TDK. In all my biatching and kavetching about SH5...I have never even brought up DRM. I dont like it...but to me its no different than what came with any "games for windows Live" or "Steam" requirement.

With that said.... I honestly DO feel SH5 is in a worse state than either SH3 or 4 was at release. At least with 3 and 4 I played for a few weeks before waiting for the "final" patch (that never came).

I cant stand to play SH5 right now. Between all my 'friendly' ships trying to ram me in the Keil Canal while in full reverse, to the horrible UI (I know...mods are out for this, my point is I am critizing a UNmodded release), to the entirely stupid Ludicrous Speed Ahead, to the "sub on rails" ruining of immersion (a KNOWN issue since SH3)... I just have no desire to play SH5.

Im just going to wait until the "final" patch (that fixes most of the big bugs, and leaves all the no so big bugs like Ubi always does) and the MODS.

You see by all the folks NOT buying SH5 at full price, in the first couple months after release, this will ensure the death of the SH franchise. Ubi isnt looking at how many people bought the game 6 months from now...by then UBI has already made up thier minds that the game didnt sell enough.

Now couple the fact EVERY review I have read was 75% about all the bugs in the game (see the US PC GAMER review on newstands now) with 25% THEN bringing up the draconian DRM scheme.... you have a stinker (or sinker) of a first few months. The whole "Modders will fix this" does NOTHING to save the SH franchise... the only thing it does is give those of us stupid enough to buy the game at release HOPE that we MAY have an engrossing, immersive, Uboat sim someday.

[les green01]

there record for doing patches and with drm it don't look good for ubi i hope it be differn't for the ones who bought sh5

[KL-alfman]

edited
(pushed wrong button)

[JMV]

Yes, I think Ubisoft don't want to understand they have a bad strategy, persist on not listening to the game users, and will probably draw false conclusions....
If those repeated mistakes do not lead to their demise, it will probably be the end of the SH franchise...
To make it short, the only thing that keep SH alive are the modders...
They're after quick ( minimum ) money, and that's all. They are unable to really polish a product, take the necessary time to finish something.
No, they prefer to throw it at us in all haste, for quick, but not as good money as they would have made, had they finish the work, and have world praise for a job well done.
That should be their goal, but no, they are deaf and blind...

[KG_Jag]

I can't get excited about a buggy, incomplete, toxic DRM infected submarine game.

Further, the SH series appears to going in the wrong direction, beginning with SH3 to SH4 and now to SH5. If this is the stuff that they (SH franchise and/or Ubi) will continue offer, perhaps it is better that they fade away and allow at least a slightly greater chance that, over time, a new outfit will offer a better submarine product or three.

If that doesn't happen, there are many very good and better quality games in the sim and wargaming genres that I can play. Gaming time is too limited to waste on lousy or unsatisfying games.

[JMV]

Well, we'll see what SH5 becomes after 3 years thanks to the modders, it's a bit early to speak.
Anyway if the SH franchise disappears after SH5, there ain't that many sub simulations on the market unfortunately.

[Arclight]

I'm not sure how you came to this outcome from what I stated.
You say a DRM method survives if people accept it, ie. buy the product. It's simply not correct; people bought games with the limited installs "feature" and it disappeared. Don't see how I can make it clearer than that. :-?

It was said before: if you don't buy a game, all it tells the publisher is that the game is not doing well, for whatever reason. If you want your opinion heard regarding DRM specifically, contact them.

[Stormbringer]

You say a DRM method survives if people accept it, ie. buy the product. It's simply not correct; people bought games with the limited installs "feature" and it disappeared. Don't see how I can make it clearer than that. :-?

I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I understand what you're saying.

Taking Spore as an example of this, take a look at Amazon's selling list sometime. 2000+ out of 3000 reviews gave it 1 out of 5 because of the DRM. I think that's telling as to why it disappeared.

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

It was said before: if you don't buy a game, all it tells the publisher is that the game is not doing well, for whatever reason. If you want your opinion heard regarding DRM specifically, contact them.Again, if anyone has an email address of contact, please post it. As it is, I'm writing a traditional US mail letter, because they at least provide addresses on their sites.

[Arclight]

Taking Spore as an example of this, take a look at Amazon's selling list sometime. 2000+ out of 3000 reviews gave it 1 out of 5 because of the DRM. I think that's telling as to why it disappeared.
So how is that different from SH5, or any OSP game? :-?

First you say the people who buy the game are part of the problem, and not buying it will make it go away. Now it's the negative feedback? SH5 got plenty of that, I'm sure we can agree on that, so what's the problem then?


That contact address is a mystery indeed. "contact us" section holds no e-mail address, need to log in for support (should have account already). International support page is down. Alternative is by telephone, but that would cost you a bit. :nope:

[Faamecanic]

Well, we'll see what SH5 becomes after 3 years thanks to the modders, it's a bit early to speak.
Anyway if the SH franchise disappears after SH5, there ain't that many sub simulations on the market unfortunately.

Thats because UBI is (somewhat) making them now.

I kinda chuckle at all the doomsayers that say "If Ubi doesnt make a subsim we will never have one!!". So I guess we are to bend over, grab our ankles, and plead with UBI to use some lube at least???

Just look on the Subsim Home page....there are TWO naval sims out there by smaller dev groups that look outstanding. What makes any of you think that another group (or even the exsisting Devs) wouldnt pick up after UBI vacates the subsim arena?

[Zedi]

Better some other company start to work on a (ww2) subsim, because I will not buy another one made by Ubi. Never again.

[Yak]

There is only one metric for acceptance of something like this system to Ubi and that is sales, no amount of harshly worded letters or e-mails will make one iota of difference.

Your choice is binary: Buy Sh5 and vote for OSP or don't.
Ubisoft already have a measure of how an SH game should sell from SH2,3 & 4 and if there is a marked drop in sales in this and other premium titles suddenly they can't help but notice it.

As for your argument that Starforce was removed even with sales, that was because there was legal action due to the destruction of peoples hardware and other legal actions taken, you think the petitions people signed made any difference?

Talk is cheap, the only thing they can measure is the number of Benjamins in their coffers.

And I bet every one of you will be lined up for the SH5 DLC when it is released gushing over how dreamy the Type IX and 1944 & 1945 DLC's were and how it was only $20 you paid for it, less than a meal at a restaurant.

[Stormbringer]

So how is that different from SH5, or any OSP game? :-?

First you say the people who buy the game are part of the problem, and not buying it will make it go away. Now it's the negative feedback? SH5 got plenty of that, I'm sure we can agree on that, so what's the problem then?

People who buy the new Ubisoft titles are part of the problem (the problem being defined here as the draconian DRM) because it promotes the company's DRM.

However, no matter what kind of boycott is in the general mindset, some people are going to buy these games. I wish it were a 100% boycott, but expecting that is unrealistic.

If a few people buy these titles and most give horrible reviews and the total sales end up bad, that's still a message of overall dissatisfaction. In the case of SH5, that seems to be panning out (I just got done reading the customer reviews at Amazon and 55 out of 60 gave it 1 out of 5, most being very critical of the DRM). That SH5 is broken out of the box in game play, however, muddies the waters and the anti-DRM stances in these reviews are diluted by this. Ubi may ignore the DRM gripes, and rationalize that SH5 is floundering only because it wasn't a finished product. This again, is why a 100% boycott (or as close as you can get to 100%) of purchasing would be a more effective message against the DRM.

My concern at this point is more toward Ubi's other titles, which aim to a much larger audience. (There are far more people interested in AC2 than SH5, for example.) If the general acceptance there remains by large sales numbers, then complaints about the DRM will be glossed over by the sales and anything happening in the SH5 realm will be ignored as a 'niche market reaction'.

Thankfully, at least looking at Amazon as a guide, the PC version of Assassin's Creed II customer reviews are at 1.5 out of 5, with 122 reviews. It all seems to be based on the DRM! That's a good thing. With the console game reviews hitting 4.5 by comparison, that will send a message that the DRM is the issue on the PC side. At least if Ubisoft is paying attention, it will send that message. If they don't pay attention to the reasons behind the ratings, then they may just decide that the problem isn't the DRM, but that PC gaming is a lost cause.:shifty:

At this point, it will all depend on how Ubisoft reads the results.

That contact address is a mystery indeed. "contact us" section holds no e-mail address, need to log in for support (should have account already). International support page is down. Alternative is by telephone, but that would cost you a bit. :nope:Maybe they're tired of people griping?

The International support page was up a couple of days ago, but still no email address.

[danasan]

This is what we are always given: community.germany@ubisoft.com

I do not know if it "works"

.

[Arclight]

People who buy the new Ubisoft titles are part of the problem (the problem being defined here as the draconian DRM) because it promotes the company's DRM.

However, no matter what kind of boycott is in the general mindset, some people are going to buy these games. I wish it were a 100% boycott, but expecting that is unrealistic.

If a few people buy these titles and most give horrible reviews and the total sales end up bad, that's still a message of overall dissatisfaction. In the case of SH5, that seems to be panning out (I just got done reading the customer reviews at Amazon and 55 out of 60 gave it 1 out of 5, most being very critical of the DRM). That SH5 is broken out of the box in game play, however, muddies the waters and the anti-DRM stances in these reviews are diluted by this. Ubi may ignore the DRM gripes, and rationalize that SH5 is floundering only because it wasn't a finished product. This again, is why a 100% boycott (or as close as you can get to 100%) of purchasing would be a more effective message against the DRM.

My concern at this point is more toward Ubi's other titles, which aim to a much larger audience. (There are far more people interested in AC2 than SH5, for example.) If the general acceptance there remains by large sales numbers, then complaints about the DRM will be glossed over by the sales and anything happening in the SH5 realm will be ignored as a 'niche market reaction'.

Thankfully, at least looking at Amazon as a guide, the PC version of Assassin's Creed II customer reviews are at 1.5 out of 5, with 122 reviews. It all seems to be based on the DRM! That's a good thing. With the console game reviews hitting 4.5 by comparison, that will send a message that the DRM is the issue on the PC side. At least if Ubisoft is paying attention, it will send that message. If they don't pay attention to the reasons behind the ratings, then they may just decide that the problem isn't the DRM, but that PC gaming is a lost cause.:shifty:

At this point, it will all depend on how Ubisoft reads the results.

Maybe they're tired of people griping?

The International support page was up a couple of days ago, but still no email address.
Can't say I agree that purchasing an OSP game promotes the system, but I certainly understand that perspective. More than likely, Ubi Soft looks at it like that, that I do agree with.


Wanna hear the real kicker? The always-on requirement is being brought to console games as well. Also just exploratory, like it still seems to be on the PC, but still. :nope:

Capcom Apologizes for Not Telling Users of Final Fight DRM (http://kotaku.com/5523238/capcom-apologizes-for-not-telling-users-of-final-fight-drm)

[John Channing]

Can't say I agree that purchasing an OSP game promotes the system, but I certainly understand that perspective. More than likely, Ubi Soft looks at it like that, that I do agree with.


Wanna hear the real kicker? The always-on requirement is being brought to console games as well. Also just exploratory, like it still seems to be on the PC, but still. :nope:

Capcom Apologizes for Not Telling Users of Final Fight DRM (http://kotaku.com/5523238/capcom-apologizes-for-not-telling-users-of-final-fight-drm)


Wow... looking at that link you provided they should forget about apologizing about DRM and apologize about the graphics.

Unless it's 1992 again already and no one told me?

JCC

[robbo180265]

Wow... looking at that link you provided they should forget about apologizing about DRM and apologize about the graphics.

Unless it's 1992 again already and no one told me?

JCC

Lol.

Taken from the article

"PS3 users who downloaded the bundle of 1990s arcade classics noticed that the game quits completely if the console loses its connection to the PlayStation Network - whether in single- or multiplayer. Capcom faced outrage over the restriction on its own community forums."
;)

[609_Avatar]

Well I didn't buy it, DRM being the only reason, and I also emailed UBI. I found a marketing person's address on the main corporate site. Can't look for it as I'm not on the computer I mailed it to. Don't know whether it was read, much less make any difference at all, as I never received the courtesy of a reply but I thought it worth the effort.

If they do eventually drop it I will buy it in a heart beat.

[Nisgeis]

There is only one metric for acceptance of something like this system to Ubi and that is sales, no amount of harshly worded letters or e-mails will make one iota of difference.

Then what good will posting about the faults of DRM on an internet discussion board do? You're right about harshly worded emails won't make a difference. A constructive email explaining why you aren't buying their products would be much better. Or, if people want to organise, then why not organise something they would notice, as has been tried in the past with other products. Why not arrange for those who don't like the DRM to send a lemon in the post to Ubisoft. If they get enough lemons, they'll get the message. A pile of lemons is harder to ignore than emails that hardly anyone is writing.

Not buying the game is not an action that will have any effect on the behaviour of Ubi and is in no way a 'vote'. If it were a vote, then you could simply not buy the game again. Perhaps not buying it a third time would send an even louder message to Ubisoft?

People who buy the new Ubisoft titles are part of the problem (the problem being defined here as the draconian DRM) because it promotes the company's DRM.

However, no matter what kind of boycott is in the general mindset, some people are going to buy these games. I wish it were a 100% boycott, but expecting that is unrealistic.

Rather than alienating some of the people who have bought the game, by telling them it's their fault, why not ask for their help and support in complaining to Ubisoft? Isn't that a better way to go about it? Some people have a genuine desire to have the DRM removed and some people are not interested in solving the problem and just want to rant about it in a way that will have no positive effect at all.

The people who have bought the game and do not like the DRM could write in / send lemons / rate the game or anything else you can think of. So, let's see some organisation here. I'd like to see at least one genuine effort to do something about it come out of all this complaining, if people are serious about getting the DRM removed.

Well I didn't buy it, DRM being the only reason, and I also emailed UBI. I found a marketing person's address on the main corporate site. Can't look for it as I'm not on the computer I mailed it to. Don't know whether it was read, much less make any difference at all, as I never received the courtesy of a reply but I thought it worth the effort.

If they do eventually drop it I will buy it in a heart beat.

Well done for sending that email. There's only one way to tell a company what you think and that's to tell them what you think. Sending smoke signals, or disembowling chickens, posting on a forum they don't read or 'voting' with your wallet are probably not going to get through quite as well as a simple polite statement. Or a lemon :DL.

[609_Avatar]

I like the lemon idea! :up: But I do think voting with your wallet, as long as you explain that to them, does in fact help. It's the only place that they will truly feel it.

[Nisgeis]

Well, that may be true, but I think that with the DRM scheme being applied to three products at once (AC2, Settlers 7 and SH5), then the percentages that would not buy because of it will be the same across the board, so they may well just put it down to an economic downturn. They have to be seen to be making the right choices and if blaming piracy or economic downturn is what gets them off the hook for poor sales, that's what they'll chose as the reason. If they say DRM cost sales, then they will be held to account for the losses. If its factors outside of their control... It's all about spin!

[les green01]

well said Nisgeis

[robbo180265]

well said Nisgeis

Agree 100%

[Frumpkis]

I kinda chuckle at all the doomsayers that say "If Ubi doesnt make a subsim we will never have one!!". So I guess we are to bend over, grab our ankles, and plead with UBI to use some lube at least???

Just look on the Subsim Home page....there are TWO naval sims out there by smaller dev groups that look outstanding. What makes any of you think that another group (or even the exsisting Devs) wouldnt pick up after UBI vacates the subsim arena?

I agree... in the long run, it might be the best thing for the sim community if Ubi did decide to drop out of the subsim market after the SH5 fiasco. The fact that Silent Hunter has dominated sub sims for the last few years, might be keeping some of the smaller devs from giving it a shot. Especially with "serious" sims being a niche market anyway.

Look at what's happening with civilian flight sims right now. Microsoft recently decided to shut down the MS Flight Simulator franchise, which has been the 500 lb. gorilla in that market for years. A few developers tried competing over the years with things like "Fly!" but they never got a foothold. There is one other serious alternative in X-Plane, but that's too geeky for the general game market and is a one-man project, basically.

Now however, with the 500 lb. gorilla going away, there have been at least two new civilian flight sim projects announced recently. That's healthy for the flight sim community, and it wouldn't have happened if Microsoft hadn't thrown in the towel. It's what could happen with subsims if Ubi leaves the market open.

[Capt_Sluggo]

If its factors outside of their control... It's all about spin!

I disagree. Spin can be made to work to political avail, within the domain of passion, emotion, and uninformed opinion, and when there is no other basis for resolution than those whimsical clouds. But it cannot be used to slant the true reasons behind profit and loss.

There are plenty of analysts both inside and outside of every significant enterprise to challenge claims of fault (and for that matter success). They always do, and they always do so exhaustively.

[robbo180265]

I disagree. Spin can be made to work to political avail, within the domain of passion, emotion, and uninformed opinion, and when there is no other basis for resolution than those whimsical clouds. But it cannot be used to slant the true reasons behind profit and loss.

There are plenty of analysts both inside and outside of every significant enterprise to challenge claims of fault (and for that matter success). They always do, and they always do so exhaustively.

Wrong.

To reiterate what Nisgeis said.

If you simply sit back and do nothing (I.E. sit behind your computer refusing to buy the game) then they will attribute the loss of sales to many factors - the bugs, the recession, invaders from Mars etc.

If you actually contact them and let them know why you are not buying their product - then they will know that it's all about the DRM.

Telling us achieves nothing.

The ball is in your court my friend.....

[Capt_Sluggo]

Wrong. ... Telling us achieves nothing.

Almost all companies have to dig with considerable effort to get reliable, honest customer feedback. With ANY kind of customer survey you are lucky to see a 10% return rate, and that with simplistic, check-the-closest-response type questions that really don't reveal much. Anything more useful usually requires a carrot - a prize or freebie of some sort which arguably injects bias.

But Ubisoft (like some other companies in this business) has the best imaginable customer feedback system. This forum and the others like it, propelled by well-spoken, influential repeat buyers filled with invaluable product-specific emotional and technical feedback. There is no need for surveys - Subsim is the nirvana of customer reaction.

Many mistakenly assume that since Ubisoft and the SH dev crew do not actively participate in these forums, they do not read the contents. The truth is that with rare exception, company representatives/employees are prohibited from such participation. For every clarification made by a fact that a company insider might publicly state, there are ten possible bad results that can cause legal problems.

The ONLY way that Ubi is not reading and reporting on this forum internally is if they have already made the decision to abandon further SH development and its market. Some believe that to be the case...

"Spin" does not work in the empirical realities of business. Enterprises that make decisions based on assumption fail, and those execs who try passing off conjecture as fact don't last. But there is no need for any of that here. Along with the sales figures which we are not privy to, Ubi has within this forum the entire picture of cause and effect without the spin.

[robbo180265]

Almost all companies have to dig with considerable effort to get reliable, honest customer feedback. With ANY kind of customer survey you are lucky to see a 10% return rate, and that with simplistic, check-the-closest-response type questions that really don't reveal much. Anything more useful usually requires a carrot - a prize or freebie of some sort which arguably injects bias.

But Ubisoft (like some other companies in this business) has the best imaginable customer feedback system. This forum and the others like it, propelled by well-spoken, influential repeat buyers filled with invaluable product-specific emotional and technical feedback. There is no need for surveys - Subsim is the nirvana of customer reaction.

Many mistakenly assume that since Ubisoft and the SH dev crew do not actively participate in these forums, they do not read the contents. The truth is that with rare exception, company representatives/employees are prohibited from such participation. For every clarification made by a fact that a company insider might publicly state, there are ten possible bad results that can cause legal problems.

The ONLY way that Ubi is not reading and reporting on this forum internally is if they have already made the decision to abandon further SH development and its market. Some believe that to be the case...

"Spin" does not work in the empirical realities of business. Enterprises that make decisions based on assumption fail, and those execs who try passing off conjecture as fact don't last. But there is no need for any of that here. Along with the sales figures which we are not privy to, Ubi has within this forum the entire picture of cause and effect without the spin.

Mate,

As I posted in another thread - UBI can't even be bothered to read their own forums lol.

The only way you can be sure that they know your feelings is to actually contact them its not only simple but logical too.

Telling yourself anything else is simply kidding yourself.

Sitting here telling us achieves nothing - 'cos we already know.;)

[Faamecanic]

I agree... in the long run, it might be the best thing for the sim community if Ubi did decide to drop out of the subsim market after the SH5 fiasco. The fact that Silent Hunter has dominated sub sims for the last few years, might be keeping some of the smaller devs from giving it a shot. Especially with "serious" sims being a niche market anyway.

Look at what's happening with civilian flight sims right now. Microsoft recently decided to shut down the MS Flight Simulator franchise, which has been the 500 lb. gorilla in that market for years. A few developers tried competing over the years with things like "Fly!" but they never got a foothold. There is one other serious alternative in X-Plane, but that's too geeky for the general game market and is a one-man project, basically.

Now however, with the 500 lb. gorilla going away, there have been at least two new civilian flight sim projects announced recently. That's healthy for the flight sim community, and it wouldn't have happened if Microsoft hadn't thrown in the towel. It's what could happen with subsims if Ubi leaves the market open.

And I wish EASPORTS would vacate the NFL license. They stopped making Madden for the PC 3 yrs ago. But will NOT give up the license.

Why did they stop making madden for the PC you ask? Well they blame "poor sales make investment in PORTING over Madden from console to PC not a worth while investment".

WHY did EA have poor sales in the PC world. 1) Lack of moddability...they locked thier code down TIGHT (something that UBI at least let up on) 2) GAME RELEASED VERSION AFTER VERSION WITH MAJOR BUGS AND HALF ARSED PATCHES.

There are a few small groups making football sims for the PC now...but most are just stat simulators, and none have NFL teams and rosters. But there are small developers working on it and someday we will have one to compete with the 500 lb gorilla.

[Rockin Robbins]

The worst thing about the DRM is that we have to write a blank check to UBI, trusting them to disconnect the DRM if they decide to pull the plug on the paltry three servers. They do not trust us. We should not trust them. All the unfortunate purchasers will receive for their $50+ is a very inexpensive and inefficient drink coaster.

Just in time for the modders to make SH5 into a fun and playable game, nobody will be able to play it!:har:

[RodBorza]

The worst thing about the DRM is that we have to write a blank check to UBI, trusting them to disconnect the DRM if they decide to pull the plug on the paltry three servers. They do not trust us. We should not trust them. All the unfortunate purchasers will receive for their $50+ is a very inexpensive and inefficient drink coaster.

Just in time for the modders to make SH5 into a fun and playable game, nobody will be able to play it!:har:

RR,

Jeez...man...now I see your point.
DRM is not only an annoying feature. It is giving the game company the monopoly of the gamers actions. And taking all of our freedom.
If they ever found that a game is obsolete, they will just shut it down. Now we run the very risky of games with a expiration date.
There are some people out there still playing Jane's Longbow2, a 1992 game. If Ubisoft one day says that this and this game will no longer be supported by their new servers, then they will simply shut them down. That's really bad.
Thanks for opening my eyes!

[Arclight]

At least we still have their word that they will patch out the DRM should it ever come to that. :)

:hmm2:

:wah:

[-Pv-]

I have bought every sub sim made for computers and I defended SH4 with determination when it first came out. DRM GONE = SH5 BUY. Not until.
-Pv-