Kaczynski >possibly< responsible for the crash

[Skybird]

Before you guys start trying to kill me again, please understand I am just the messenger of the news, not the author of it.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article7126682/Pilot-ignorierte-Warnung-des-russischen-Lotsen.html

The important part in this report is this, I translate it afterwards:


Ein Luftfahrtexperte von der Technischen Hochschule in Breslau, Tomasz Szulc, sagte, dem Piloten habe wahrscheinlich die „nötige Durchsetzungsfähigkeit“ gefehlt. Er erinnerte an einen Zwischenfall vom Sommer 2008.
Damals hatte sich ein Pilot wegen akuter Gefahrenlage über die Order des Präsidenten, direkt nach Georgien zu fliegen, hinweggesetzt und war in einem Nachbarland gelandet. Lech Kaczynski musste mit einem Auto nach Tiflis chauffiert werden. Das Staatsoberhaupt warf dem Piloten damals Befehlsverweigerung vor.

Die Fluglotsen haben kein Recht, dem polnischen Präsidentenflugzeug die Landung zu verbieten


The article refers to original reports in both the Gazeta Wyborcza and Itar-Tass that is quoting the vice supreme commander of the Russian air force.

Translation:
An aviation expert of the technical university in Breslau, Tomasz Szulc, said the pilot probably was missing the needed assertiveness (=Durchsetzungsvermögen"). he reminds of an ncident from summer 2008.

Back then a pilot had ignored direct orders by the president to fly directly to Georgia, due to the present danger of the situation [Georgia war], he landed in a neighbouring country instead. Lech Kaczynski had to drive by car to Tiflis. The head of state back then accused the pilot of insubordination.

Flight controllers have no legal power to deny landing permission to the Polish presidential plane.

Now add these hints together.

1. Just hours earlier, an experienced Russian aviator who knew the target airport and was familiar wirth the area, refused all by himself to land at the airport, instead he flew back to Moscow and landed there in safety.

2. In 2008, Kaczynski demanded to be directly flown into a war zone so dangerous that the pilot simply refused to accept that risk and refused to obey the president's direct orders, and ignored them, landing in a safe place instead.

3. Kazcynski had nothing better to do than to accuse him of insubordination instead of leaving the decision to the expert'S experience.

4. The plane yesterday tried to land four times in thick fog, ignoring the very urgent advise from tower not to land,and to evade to a safe place. This although the plane is more than twenty years old and ILS was not available.

Adding one and one and one and one gets me to a result of four. Pilot error? Maybe in that he should have refused to obey . To me it sounds like soembody again tried to get with this head through the wall - and this time the wall was stronger than his head.

The relatives of the other victims onboard might want to ask some angry questions.

[Tribesman]

Hold on, is Kaczynski some sort of Muslim or is he perhaps part of a secret global EU conspiracy over fictional demographics?
There must be some really serious ulterior motive for this to be persued after being asked in the plane crash topic to drop it till after the corpses were at least slightly cold.

[Storm87]

I thought about this option. We also talking about it in here, and about many other possibilities. But this is just guessing. It may be as you sayng, but also might be not. We don't know. And it's far too early for such discussions. The air is realy heavy in Poland today... So I belive it's not the best time for such speculations.

[Oberon]

http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/media.php?file=postcard/image/0504/05042338.jpg

[Tribesman]

Is there a strike on Oberon?
I thought them Green Godess machines were retired by now.

[Cohaagen]

Is there a strike on Oberon?
I thought them Green Godess machines were retired by now.

They are - my old boy bought one*, to go with his AEC Mammoth Major and Dennis.

They only wheel them out these days to deal with heavy paranoiacs. Auxilliary kit is an eight-foot cotton sock to stuff into the mouth, and fist-sized plugs of cottons for the ears so they can't listen to shortwave radio.

Did I ever tell you that OJ Simpson faked the Mars Landing?







*he did

[Tribesman]

They are - my old boy bought one*, to go with his AEC Mammoth Major and Dennis.

I used to see a few of them as conversions over there, a couple of nice ones used to do the Run for the Sun before that got too commercial.

Did I ever tell you that OJ Simpson faked the Mars Landing?

Did he have a secret army of Nazi dentists to help him with the filming?

[Oberon]

Just thought I'd get the old girl out before the fire started :03:

[Tribesman]

Are the Prodigy playing?

[Oberon]

Are the Prodigy playing?

Either them or the Crazy World of Arthur Brown! :03:

[Schroeder]

I guess the voice recorder will tell us soon enough. Before that it is all speculation.

@Skybird

You made one of your favourite mistakes in English again by translating the German eventuell with eventually. Eventually means something like "finally" while eventuell means "maybe, perhaps".

[XabbaRus]

Now there was a crazy guy...

[Skybird]

You made one of your favourite mistakes in English again by translating the German eventuell with eventually. Eventually means something like "finally" while eventuell means "maybe, perhaps".
:D
I become so sorry, promised! :DL

Serious, I never knew that. Thanks. Maybe a mod can replace the misleading word in the headline with "possibly". the title sounds really bad and misleading, like an attack.

[kranz]

The relatives of the other victims onboard might want to ask some angry questions.

I doubt they would. I bet they are more tactful than you.

There must be some really serious ulterior motive for this to be persued after being asked in the plane crash topic to drop it till after the corpses were at least slightly cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive–compulsive_disorder

and my comment on him in the previous thread, btw thx for infractions Xabba.

:D
Maybe a mod can replace the misleading word in the headline with "possibly". the title sounds really bad and misleading, like an attack.

Oh maybe not. Let the proofs of your ignorance remain unchanged.

[Skybird]

I doubt they would. I bet they are more tactful than you.

Yeah, cover it up.

Havin dealt with victims professionally in my past, I must tell you that for victims and their relatives it is not so much a question of tact, but a question on uncertainty which to end by getting answers is something they find relief over. You - only seem to be about a personal cult, at the cost of ignoring such possibilities of relief for the relatives. And that is very selfish of you.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive–compulsive_disorder

Talking about that tact you just mentioned.

and my comment on him in the previous thread,
I forgot whether it was you or somebody else calling me names and calling me a swine there.


Oh maybe not. Let the proofs of your ignorance remain unchanged.

Yeah, keep on pumping oil into the fire, by leaving that headline in an unintended, potentially flamatory state that I did not wish to express that way, but did by lacking knowledge only. That'S what you really are after, right? A rumble?

Unfortunatley, this is not the first opportunity I recall where you mistake name calling with argument and personal attacks with posting.



A principal thing, adressing the mods:

do not warn me over anything here. In the other thread, as well as here, I was absolutely modest in stating what I said, and I payed respect to the tragic dimension and the human loss three times. But Kranz thinks he has to defend a leader status of Kaczynski - the only figure in this that I do criticise and that many people here have criticed in the past years - that seems to be completely ignorrant of the shadow sides of the man. He raised the temperature needlessly that way, encouraging others in the other thread to follow that example. I got called a swine, an ignorrant, a Nazi, and now a mentally defective, with no reaction by any mod. The original comment by me was between me and Schroeder - and it was harmless, since we both wished, expressed and agreed in that hopefully the political ties between Germany and Poland now would improve again. And over that Kranz blew up. But it is a historic fact that there is a record of the Polish right, which is not a microscopic faction only, but has one third and more of the population as sympathisers, to raise Polish revanchism against Germany and to link the current Germany and it'S government with the Third Reich and the person of Adolf Hitler. This is also an aspect of Kaczynski.

This was mentioned by me in a moderate, short comment, and I refuse to accept any criticism over that. What has been sent back in hatefilled reaction by two or three figures immediately starting to fire verbal offences, is not acceptable, no matter the mourning in Poland, and I wonder why it is accepted on this board when the forum rules speak out against it so very clearly. I got three mails yesterday from people telling me all the same: that they tend to agree with what I said, that they find it bad that the namecalling that came back in reply was accepted without warning by the mod, and this morning I see that both my comment and the vitriol in reply was deleted, as if the one was of the same severity than the other. Against this relativisation I file my protest. Cautioning the personal insults, and if desired: separating the thread would have been the right thing to do.

If I would say that America is a nation of evil, that Americans (in general) are racist KKK-members and there is a trend in America for reestablishing slavery, all the wolve pack immediately would go after me and call death! and torture!. But when germany gets constantly pointed at as being a Nazi country, and the people and our leaders being racists and reincarnations of Hitler - then we Germans time and again are expected to just swallow that, to behave as if nothing has happened, and to just show a kind smile. OTH gets away with it. Tribesman gets away with it when calling me perosnally like that. Omne or two guys yesterday got away with it. In the past years where this happened so often, I recall only one or two situations where a Neal stepped in. After all it is just the stupid Germans getting attacked, and the Germans are good for three things only: to be called Nazis, to shut up, and to pay. Not to mention Hollywood...

The news I report in this thread, bases on information from Polish and Russian military sources, as i already said. Take that into account before anyone again dares to throw dirt at me for "not respecting the dead". I briefly checked healdines in the few english russian and Poish newspapers I have lionked, and all of them are already far ahead in speculating and asking questions about the causes. I payed tribute to the dead THREE TIMES in the other thread, in three different posts, but I refuse to pay any special tribute to Kaczynski for being a president, and I am not becoming more sentimental over this tragedy than I would become about a bus accident in a suburb of Casablanca. Let's face it, if it would have been a figure like Hugo Chavez gotten killed in an accident, nobody here would think about piety and relatives, but the air would bristle with jokes and ironic comments, and references to what a jester that guys was. I never claimed to be a holy saint being in emphatic contact with all the rest of mankind. Several thousand people died yesterday worldwide, and all of them are as close or as distant to me than those sitting in that plane. So do not expect me to cry crocodile tears. I have cried, on several occaisons - over the fate of people with whom I had any sort of relation, personally or professionally, or that I loved and knew.



Now, post in this thread if you have something constructive to say on its topic, or stay away. Personal insults are not wanted here, and I will not just swallow them again like yesterday. when the French airbus crashed in the Atlantic last year, there was a thread about possible causes, too, including pilot or maintenance errors. Nobody took offence from that. There is no reason to take offence now, just because this time it is a Polish plane.

[heartc]

LOL, ridiculous. The irony is that with all your whining and revanchism when the bodies were not even recovered yet, you kinda proved Kaczyński right after all, at least as far as you are concerned.

What is funny is that with your recently discovered skepticism regarding the institution that is the EU, one would have thought you should have some sympathy with what this man's point was all about. For Poland, what started with WWII didn't end in 1945. It ended only relatively recently in ~1990, so they will get concerned when they see the forming of another bureaucrat apparatus that loves to rule and puts the idea of freedom not at the very top of its priority list. Also, with the pragmatically good relationship between Germany and Russia, while the latter has no qualms about bombing a neighboring democracy even in the 21st century, I don't find it too surprising when some alarm bells are ringing in Poland. Wanting to build a pipeline from Russia that bypasses a fellow EU member state didn't help either in building up the confidence.

But instead of thinking about this, you play the drama queen ala "I don't wear a mustache, how dare you!" and would have loved to put Kaczyński on your ignore list, not realizing that this was exactly his point. All you did is reap the lines given to you by our own biased and EU worshipping media and run with it. Your god damn Spiegel has lots of (frm. Chancellor) Schröder like Russia lovers and former commies in their staff, who - in addition - remember very well that Poland was one of those who spoiled the party in 1989/90. Who allowed Poland to speak up? How dare they have their own opinion!

If the EU is meant to stay on a path of freedom and democracy, it would do well to listen to her smaller member states instead of listening to Russia.

[kranz]

I forgot whether it was you or somebody else calling me names and calling me a swine there.

not me, besides that would be violation of PETA's movement regulations.


A principal thing, adressing the mods:

double "d", mkay?

Against this relativisation I file my protest.
It reminds me the scene from Stalingrad(1993)Soon after the arrival at the train station in Stalingrad:
-Ich muss gegen das Verhalten Ihrer Leute protestieren.
-Dann protestieren Sie. Am besten beim Führer selbst

Everybody's free to express opinion. There were ppl who posted in that previous thread about planes, possible pilot mistakes etc but you just had to came and CTRL+C/CTRL+V your old stuff which can be found in plenty of threads dealing with Poland. And actually the logic behind posting this was(only in my opinion)none so I commented on that. And don't try to play a victim now coz most of political threads in which u post end like that. You write cr... , ppl respond to that and u feel deeply offended. and I'm not trying to defend anyone-every thread has its name/topic. You could easily start your own and write there. When you off-top you get what you deserved. What is more mods-in that case Xabbarus- reacted coz I got infractions(and i stated it b4)so stop crying.


Now, post in this thread if you have something constructive to say on its topic, or stay away. Personal insults are not wanted here, and I will not just swallow them again like yesterday. when the French airbus crashed in the Atlantic last year, there was a thread about possible causes, too, including pilot or maintenance errors. Nobody took offence from that. There is no reason to take offence now, just because this time it is a Polish plane.
i almost peed in my pants.:har::timeout: You are no one to tell where I can post, especially after u said:"??"oh, i've just noticed that a few posts have been deleted.ok so nvm. he just said he will stay back from that thread but after all he could not restrain himself and posted a few more.
In a nutshell: when u go off topic don;t expect ppl to remain indifferent.

[Tribesman]

A principal thing, adressing the mods:

do not warn me over anything here.
Isn't it funny how in one part someone can talk about forum rules yet then demand their post cannot be looked at in regards to mods following forum rules.

This was mentioned by me in a moderate, short comment, and I refuse to accept any criticism over that.
What one person considers moderate or short is irrelevant, since the issue was the timing and the nature of the comments. Though mainly the timing, which was then made worse by going off on it all over again.
Refusal to accept criticism is a sign that he doesn't get it.

What is funny is that with your recently discovered skepticism regarding the institution that is the EU, one would have thought you should have some sympathy with what this man's point was all about.
I am afraid you will find lots of examples of his views being called crazy....when its Sky talking about other people that hold the views he himself holds.

[iambecomelife]

"But when germany gets constantly pointed at as being a Nazi country, and the people and our leaders being racists and reincarnations of Hitler - then we Germans time and again are expected to just swallow that, to behave as if nothing has happened, and to just show a kind smile. OTH gets away with it. "

Lol - the whingeing German nationalist cometh. Note the same sense of perpetual "stabbed in the back" victimhood we've seen since, oh, 1919. Ah well - if I only had certain forum poster's comments to go by, I would really hate Germany and all its people with a passion. Thankfully,

A) I wasn't brought up that way, and

B) I've met many humane, compassionate Germans at work, school, & other locations in person. As even Daniel Goldhagen pointed out, judging all modern-day Germans based on some Germans' actions in the past is pointless and stupid. The kind of thinking we'd expect from certain slimeballs on this forum, but not from civilized human beings. ;)

[iambecomelife]

Oh maybe not. Let the proofs of your ignorance remain unchanged.


Zing! Nail + HEAD!:rotfl2:

[XabbaRus]

OK this topic will be closed unless the muck slinging back and forth stops.

I understand the Poles are upset however given there is a lot of speculation on the reasons for the crash, Skybirds position is one of them that is doing the rounds on the net.

I don't believe in being disrespctful to the dead but all of you need to discuss it maturely.

Final warning.

[Skybird]

@Xabba,
thanks for changing the headline.

[kranz]

OK this topic will be closed unless the muck slinging back and forth stops.

I understand the Poles are upset however given there is a lot of speculation on the reasons for the crash, Skybirds position is one of them that is doing the rounds on the net.

I don't believe in being disrespctful to the dead but all of you need to discuss it maturely.

Final warning.

actually it's not about this thread, coz Skybird could have made a separate one for w/e he wanted but he had to post in the previous.

[kranz]

now on topic :D


3. Kazcynski had nothing better to do than to accuse him of insubordination instead of leaving the decision to the expert'S experience.

4. The plane yesterday tried to land four times in thick fog, ignoring the very urgent advise from tower not to land,and to evade to a safe place. This although the plane is more than twenty years old and ILS was not available.


point 3:it's pure LOL, how do u know?
point 4:true-it was believed yesterday that: there was heavy fog and the pilot tried to land four times BUT polish TV found a man who used to be a journalist or still is and he lives near this airport.(and he is a Pole)Ha saw the accident and said that there was barely any fog in the area-of course it's hard to tell where the fog was and whereas it reduced the visibility. And about those "4 attempts". It is only a rumor. No one saw the plane to change the altitude four times. Four circles around the area don't have to mean four landing attempts.(as it was said by polish aviation experts and pilots).

[iambecomelife]

@Xabba,
thanks for changing the headline.


Yeah. Comes in handy when you're a sack of garbage too yellow to stand by your original words. Doesn't it?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Either them or the Crazy World of Arthur Brown! :03:

You're an evil, evil man. :D

[SteamWake]

I dont see what this thread is supposed to accomplish seeing as how it is based on pure speculation and a series of random events.

[CaptainHaplo]

Iambecomelife - check you PM box.

[JamesT73J]

It's possible there's a misunderstanding from Russian terminology regarding the 'fourth attempt'. Russian practice apparently refers to the turn onto final with the figure '4'; i.e. fourth turn. I'm not sure more than one attempt to land was made.

As for VIP pressure, it's total speculation at this point. It is equally possible the crew had get-it-down syndrome. This type of accident has killed many aviators, and unfortunately will probably continue to do so.

[Happy Times]

If there were any pressure felt or vocal demands to the pilots, it was more likely to be caused by the presence of the generals on board.

One contributing factor was the language barrier between the plane and the tower.

But they did do 4 aproaches and most likely understood the recomendations to go elsewhere.

One have to understand the emotions the Poles on that plane must have had taking this trip.

Everything points to an pilot error, to a very human one, but still a error.

[Skybird]

If there were any pressure felt or vocal demands to the pilots, it was more likely to be caused by the presence of the generals on board.

One contributing factor was the language barrier between the plane and the tower.

But they did do 4 aproaches and most likely understood the recomendations to go elsewhere.

One have to understand the emotions the Poles on that plane must have had taking this trip.

Everything points to an pilot error, to a very human one, but still a error.


http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Polen-Lech-Kaczynski-Flugzeugabsturz;art771,3084050

According to this report, quoting Flight Control personell in Severnyi, the Russian head of the the Russian-Polish expert examination team, and the vice chief of staff of the Russian air force, flight control has advised the plane to divert to an alternate airport on the moment of the plane crossing the border. the Polish pilot replied he would try one landing attempt, and if it failed, would divert to the alternate.

But later, the pilot categorically refused to divert to any alternate. Obviously something has happend in the decision making process onboard meanwhile, between the pilot first accepting to divert after one failed attempt, and the later announcement to not divert at all, no matter what.

One should know that it has been mentioned many times that if the plane would have landed at the closest alternate, the delegation would not have been able to keep the timetable for the ceremony at Katyn, it would have been more than 400 miles away and would not have been able to make it just in time.

So:

Fact: The pilot said he wants to check the situation at location, and if he sees he cannot land, then wants to divert.

Meaning: a pilot in my understanding should trust the flight control at location (the tower at the destination) in forming an opinion whether or not an airfield is closed due to visibility restrictions. non-presidential machines would not even have that freedom, but would be told the airfield is closed, and then have no other choice than to divert. Assuming the pilot knew of the timetable for the mission, he probably considered it to be acceptabtable and to see with his own eyes, then to divert. It is an understandable plan, considering the timetable.

Fact: some time later, the pilot changed his mind and with obviously quite some ammount of unreasonability announced that he would not divert at all. The important question is: what made him change his first decision.

Meaning: A pilot flying a high-ranking diplomat or a delegation like this, could be expected to be a professional with good training and experience. His first reaction to the weather report was showing that: check the situation himself, and if needed, divert. Now he rules out diverting, and the most likely explanation is that he was put under pressure and that the decision was not his own.

Facts: 1. the highest ranking official on board was the president. 2. The man was known to be stubborn, and to be a laserbrain (=Hitzkopf). 3. He experienced the incident in Georgia 2008, were he also was diverted by pilot's decision because of the war and the uncalculatable risk, - and he reacted by accusing the pilot of insubordination, although it was a professional, well-fouded decison that maybe has saved his life.

Meaning: It is possible that some general ordered the pilot to land at all cost, but it is not a likely or reasonable assumption. In the light of the three facts above, Kaczynski is by far the most likely candidate to have made such a decision, he also had the authority to intimidate the pilot sufficiently.

Fact: 1. Half an hour earlier, a russian plane trying to land, flown by an experienced flyer who knew both the surrounding area and the airfield itself, broke off and flew back to Moscow after pilot's decision, it was reported. 2. Russian Air Force says that the Polish plane continued to dive while being to far away fro the runway, that way not only touching ground to early, but also in no hoprizontal flioght attitude, but with the nose first. 3. Russians and Poles say the plane was in technically tip-top condition. 4. The plane either circled four times, or made 4 landing attempts. It crashed on turn number 4

Meaning: An experienced pilot knowing the area, rated the visibility conditions such as that even for him landing was impossible, juts half an hour earlier. The flight attitude of the Polish plane could indicate, that the crew had no visual contact with the ground, and were diving to establishing visual contact with the ground, assuming thremselves to be higher than they actually were. They were still diving when the plane impacted with the nose first. Obviously they took a very great risk by doing so, which displays again the pressure they must have been under, and since this behavior is in stark contrast to the pilot's first decision to check, and if landing conditions are bad: to divert, there is little other explanation that appears as reasonable than to assume that it was not their decision to land at any cost.

Which in the end means: it was a political decision made with regard to not repeat the unwanted complications of Georgia 2008, and not to mess up the timetable for Katyn ceremonies.

What remains is to note that theRussians try their best to move closer with the Polish, in an effort to silence any conspiration theories from begining on. the relations are critical, and were disturbed in past years, which again Kaczynski did his share to help getting into those troubled waters, like he also rose irrational fears of the Germans and alienated his collegaues in the EU. But if this closing of the distance between Russia and Poland is to stay, then maybe something positive has come from this accident nevertheless.

[TheSatyr]

!939 all over again with the Nationalist German crap. Kaczynski was obviously right about Germany.

[kranz]

!939 all over again with the Nationalist German crap. Kaczynski was obviously right about Germany.
:up:

[CaptainHaplo]

I didn't see a thing in Sky's post about "Nationalist Germany". He layed out a logical arguement.

While you can disagree - try using reason to rebuff it - instead of trying to divert the subject or trash the source just because you can't fault the logic.

[Dowly]

Stop being an ass Satyr. :nope:

[Schroeder]

!939 all over again with the Nationalist German crap. Kaczynski was obviously right about Germany.
Care to elaborate?

[iambecomelife]

"the Russians try their best to move closer with the Polish"

Yep. I was most impressed with Putin/Medvedev's recent effort to "move closer to" the Georgians not too long ago.

Nothing for the Poles & others to fear - nothing at all.

[Happy Times]

"the Russians try their best to move closer with the Polish"

Yep. I was most impressed with Putin/Medvedev's recent effort to "move closer to" the Georgians not too long ago.

Nothing for the Poles & others to fear - nothing at all.

People should understand that selling this Germany-Russia, axis of good and benefit to those that exist between them, brings to mind some other pacts for those countries.:D

But still, there is no reason to vilify all the Germans in this board.
I would bet most of them would love to be left to themself in this world, without having to pay money or constant apologies to some direction.