Manual targeting in 100% realism.

[Chisum]

These questions to the heros of SH3 who play in 100% realism.

How can I take the right mesurements of the distance if I can't use the SH3 internal system mesurement due the boat move all the time ?

How can I identifie a ship by night if I can't see absolutly anything ?

Is SH3 100% realism mod reserved to play by daylight and quiet sea ?

Thanks in advance.

[Hitman]

How can I take the right mesurements of the distance if I can't use the SH3 internal system mesurement due the boat move all the time ?

You can't, and real life Kaleuns couldn't either. You have to guesstimate the distance to target. For that purpose I added the range tables to my GUI :)

How can I identifie a ship by night if I can't see absolutly anything ?

You can't, and real life Kaleuns couldn't either. There was more than one surprise, enemy or even allied killed by error. Depending on the mod you are using, neutrals would be lit and clearly marked, but if you can't identify, then don't shoot. Or shoot and risk what can happen. Yesterday I sent to the bottom a greek neutral in 1941 :oops:

A method of knowing wether friend or foe is (Asuming you are against a single ship) to shoot with the deck gun in front of him. If he starts zigzagging and even replying to your shot, you can be sure it is enemy and attack him.

Is SH3 100% realism mod reserved to play by daylight and quiet sea ?

No, but those conditions hinder a lot operations. As they did in real life.

Well, that all is what 100% realism is about, isn't it? :DL

[Chisum]

You can't, and real life Kaleuns couldn't either. You have to guesstimate the distance to target. For that purpose I added the range tables to my GUI :)

What is the range tables ?


You can't, and real life Kaleuns couldn't either. There was more than one surprise, enemy or even allied killed by error. Depending on the mod you are using, neutrals would be lit and clearly marked, but if you can't identify, then don't shoot. Or shoot and risk what can happen. Yesterday I sent to the bottom a greek neutral in 1941 :oops:

A method of knowing wether friend or foe is (Asuming you are against a single ship) to shoot with the deck gun in front of him. If he starts zigzagging and even replying to your shot, you can be sure it is enemy and attack him.

Sorry, by "identifie" I meant "what type of ship is it". But it's probably the same answer: I can't.

No, but those conditions hinder a lot operations. As they did in real life.
Well, that all is what 100% realism is about, isn't it? :DL

Yep it is probably. It just that I can't found the interest to be unable to play the game.
But I will do my best to understand.

[KL-alfman]

What is the range tables ?



Hitman pointed to his new and fantastic GUI:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167126

[Chisum]

It looks great !
Downloading, thanks mate.

[KL-alfman]

It looks great !
Downloading, thanks mate.


you are welcome! :salute:

good hunting

[Kremmen]

Definitely adds another layer to your operations when you can't just zip over with the external cam to check a target out.
Personally I'm more concerned about the nationality of the target than ID'ing the ship type itself.Probably because most of the time the ship's right on top of me and I'm still flipping throught the manual like a maniac.
If I can ID the ship type all well and good,if not,confirm nationality,set the torps to 2m and let rip.
The number of times I've gone through the process of gathering all the data,got into a good firing position and fired without checking the flag...
Now I try and remind myself to check the flag before firing but mistakes do happen :oops:
I feel it just brings another element to the attack especially in rough weather and poor visibility.

[pickinthebanjo]

Yeah with a good GUI you should be able to get pretty precise range, aob and speed estimates. I just started using the OLC GUI and I like the range disks in it. And I just started playing without using the Free cam(F12) It's still on for taking screenshots but when following my torpedoes I use the hydrophone now, it's the next best thing to being there.

Also last night I decided to stop making attacks if I can't visually ID the target. This is for reasons of nationality but mainly for saving torpedoes. (unless I can use the 88mm)

[Chisum]

You really make me want to play in 100%.
I've never done before, now I still try to hit the target and it goes back regularly ...
I am going to test this GUI then I'll go into 100% because after 3 years of "kinder game" it is time to use SH3 as a professional.

Thanks.

See you later....perhaps.

:salute:

[pickinthebanjo]

What's funny is when I started playing SH3 it was the first time I ever SEEN a sub game forget played one, yet I stuck on manual aiming and everything else but the event cam and the external cam. It took me like a month before I was able to hit anything.

Now I can usually hit whatever I aim at but then I stuck OLC GUI on. Had to re-learn it all, but this time it only took like a day. But after seeing stock and a new GUI, I would have to say nothings better than a good GUI. Now I can get Range and AOB instantly. I had to guess before

[maillemaker]

How can I take the right mesurements of the distance if I can't use the SH3 internal system mesurement due the boat move all the time ?

If you use the "fixed wire" method of attack, range does not matter.

How can I identifie a ship by night if I can't see absolutly anything ?

You can't.

Is SH3 100% realism mod reserved to play by daylight and quiet sea ?

Well, if you come across a convoy, odds are pretty good that it's an enemy convoy, or at least contains enemy ships. This is not a guarantee, however.

If you come across single ships, you can usually have enough time to get in close enough to see, or, as was said, take a shot at it with your deck gun and see what happens.

Also, be aware of where you are sailing. If you are off the coast of Norway, you might see friendly or neutral ships. If you are off the coast of England, it's more likely that you will encounter English ships.

Fixed Wire Attack
1) Point sub and periscope 000 heading and bearing just in front of target ship. This negates the effect of submarine speed on target speed calculation.
2) As bow of target ship crosses vertical reticule, start stopwatch.
3) As stern of target ship crosses vertical reticule, stop stopwatch.
4) Identify ship in Recognition Manual. Manual tells you ship length.
5) Calculate target speed using: (Ship Length in Meters * 1.94) / Time in Seconds.
6) Go to TDC. Enable Manual Data Entry. Set Angle on Bow (AoB) to either 90 port or starboard, depending on which side of the target ship you are. Set speed as determined in step 5. Turn off Manual Data Entry.
7) Go to Periscope/UZO. Turn scope until gyro angle reads 000.
8) Go back to TDC. Turn on Manual Data Entry. Tweak AoB back to 90 degrees. Turn off Manual Data Entry.
9) Go back to scope. Tweak scope until gyro angle reads 000.
10) Go back to TDC. Confirm you are still at 90 AoB. If not, repeat steps 7-10.
11) Drive sub to course 90 degrees to target track. Open tube doors.
12) Wait for target ship to cross vertical reticule when scope is at 000 gyro angle. Fire torpedoes.

[Immelman]

Range doesn't matter?? How is this possible?? :06:

There are three unknowns that must be known to accurately shoot an eel:
Target's speed, AOB, range to target. Without it you can't do the math you can't determine by how many degrees to lead the target for your shot.

I can't see how this could possibly work, range cannot be omitted it is an integral part of the calculation!

Please explain the math behind your theory :hmmm:

[Kremmen]

@Immelman
Check out the animation in post #9

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

Demonstrates how range is unnecessary using this method.

[unterseemann]

You can always have a range to target, it's just less accurate and sometimes really annoying, but i don't think it's a big problem in the end.
If you can't identify a ship just get closer, i mean REALLY closer if your navigation skills are good it should be easy. In the same time try to measure its speed and bearing and plot an attack later. Or if you are patient enough wait till daylight visibility should be better.
Broad daylight and calm seas are obviously better to learn but attacks in stormy weather are possible too
The main problem is the heavy fog heavy rain weather with visibility <300m. The only solution i've ever found is to get behind the ship exactly in his 180° and launch a magnetic triggered torpedo which most of the time blow its propellers and makes it a 'sitting duck'.

Manual targeting is much easier than it seems so hold on!

[geosub1978]

There are four parameters,
bearing-range-coarse-speed.

This means that you need four measurements to get a solution, (4 bearings, 4 ranges, 4 speeds, 4 courses, 3 bearings+1course, 2 courses+2ranges etc) Don't ask how, but yes, four courses can give you a solution. This is mother nature speaking!

If you doupt about the accurancy, then plot your measurements on navmap and keep time. You will see that the spots are spread left and right of a mean line of advance. The more measurements you take, the more close the mean line is to reality. The accurency is good enough to aim your torpedoes.

In deep night and bad weather, you can perform "hydrophone approach and attack". It works. Thats why I suggest the "Assisted Plotting Mod"
The problem are the fishing boats which the sonarman cannot distinguish from a merchant...(game weakness..)

The range is important to place the target. The range is not important for the calculation of the Deflection Angle for straight shots +/- 20degrees.

[maillemaker]

Range only matters for shots when your u-boat IS NOT 90 DEGREES TO THE TARGET TRACK!

But when you are shooting 90 degrees to the target track, range does not matter.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Manual%20TDC%20Range/OKanemethodanimation.gif

[Stavros]

11) Drive sub to course 90 degrees to target track. Open tube doors.

how to do that without drawing course on map?? how can i know that iam perfect 90 not 93 for example??

[geosub1978]

TargetSpeed x sinusAoB=TorpSpeed x sinusDeflection at the moment of firing. So distance doesn't matter at any type of shot 90degrees or not. Torpedo and target are always on the same relative bearing and this is the only condition. Range has to be used if you have to define the deflection by plotting, but this is another case.

[Chisum]

Damned !
And meanwhile you calculate(at first you must found the table of sinus and cosinus[ where is it Leutnant ? Forget at Kiel Herr Kaleun !) every parameters are changing !
Are you pressing "pause" during your mathematic operations ?
:D

[geosub1978]

In the game it is one man show. In reality there is an entire firing control team. So, it is not bad to "pause" and use your wheels and tables.

Finally the range in the game is used only to calculate the speed of the target. The formula is R=2*SrAlos/(Bearing rate). Where Sralos=Subspeed*sinusLeadingAngle+ or - Targetspeed*sinusAoB.

That's why if you have AoB=0 and measyre the Bearing Rate, you have the distance of the target. By the target range you will deside at what distance you will shoot, in order to set the spread angle etc. For the firing angle, you don't need the distance, because the function is the one that I mention on the previous post. For the solution for DA of the function you replace AoB=Ib-DA. Ib is the impact angle of the torpedo on the target, which is actualy defined by your coarse at the moment of fire relative to the target coarse. So the captain has to deside at which range will shoot and at what impact angle. Best is 90degs of course. In have determind the Ib pro-launch so you resolve the function for DA and you have it. This is the theoritical mathematical background of the approach and firing procedure.

That's all.

[Paul Riley]

Yesterday I sent to the bottom a greek neutral in 1941 :oops:


Oh dear,surely Zeus will be angry for this.Beware the thunderstorms :o:timeout:

[frau kaleun]

Oh dear,surely Zeus will be angry for this.Beware the thunderstorms :o:timeout:

Thunderstorms are so last season.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/03/release-the-kraken-template-500js031710.jpg

[Paul Riley]

Thunderstorms are so last season.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/03/release-the-kraken-template-500js031710.jpg

As long as its the Kraken from the old COTT,this new hollywood crap doesnt appeal to me ;)
But I agree,release the kraken! :rock:

[frau kaleun]

As long as its the Kraken from the old COTT,this new hollywood crap doesnt appeal to me ;)


No matter how crappy the new one is, it can't possibly be as bad as the old one. I'm a Greek mythology geek from waaaaaay back and even I hated it, star power notwithstanding.

And by "star power" I do NOT mean Harry Hamlin, lol.

[geosub1978]

I think it is KRAAKEN.;)

[Paul Riley]

Going back to the issue about range,the best and probably most efficient way to get range is to first get yourself into a good position ahead of the target,calculate its future course from your plot markings and extend the line say 25km or so,get yourself well ahead of the target into your attack position,make a point from your UB to the target course line,measure,and there,you have a good range estimate,unless of course the target has changed course or is struggling in rough sea,he could veer a few 100m from his track.Calculating range on the fly is difficult and then estimates will be needed,but you can make life easier by maintaining exact course and speed with the target and make a plot for your UB to the ship and measure,and the distance should be constant,then fire when you have a good angle on his beam.
As has already been said,range is only really important with angled shots,and steep angles at that,90 degree bow shots range is irrelevant.
Speed of the target is the most vital piece of data,getting it wrong causes your torpedoes to pass either fore or aft of your intended spot.And I tend to favour the fixed line method for getting speed,maintain course,and change your speed until his bow is constant with your crosshair's vertical line.This is difficult in rough seas mind,an average will be needed if you intend to still attack.
I ALWAYS (unless against very fast ships in which case a running perpendicular attack will be needed) set up well in advance of the attack with all the attack data known and put into the TDC,and set up attacks on MY terms,at a predetermined spot and range (in ideal conditions).And also make sure you observed your target prior for a good 30mins or more to be ceetain of its course and speed etc.

[Paul Riley]

I think it is KRAAKEN.;)

Kraken is from the old Norse tongue,and is spelt Kraken :smug::DL
These sea monsters were believed to exist in the sea between Norway and Iceland.

[Immelman]

Everything is crystal clear except for the bearing rate. Can someone explain what it is and how to obtain it?

By the way Geo brilliant stuff if you have more then keep them coming!

[Paul Riley]

Everything is crystal clear except for the bearing rate. Can someone explain what it is and how to obtain it?

By the way Geo brilliant stuff if you have more then keep them coming!

The bearing? well,this is the direction in degrees the target is from YOU.If you were looking at a ship directly to the left of you its bearing would be at 270 degrees,or to the right it would be 90 degrees,if it was 45 degrees in front on your port side it would be at bearing 315.
And to obtain it simply unlock the TDC until the green light comes on,if the target is ANYWHERE on your port side set the dial to 90 deg port,and anywhere on your starboard side set to 90 deg starboard,then,lock the TDC until the light goes red,then point the scope to the target,lock it,and the TDC will update the bearing for you.The TDC was a rudimentary computer,its job was to make the commander's job easier,and so should you see it that way,trust your friend the TDC :up:
Of course,if the attack data is wrong so will the torpedo release angle be wrong,you must be certain all your data is true before an attack.

[geosub1978]

Bearing rate is the change of bearing for given time. This means in 3minutes the target traveled from 320 to 323. So the bearing rate = 323-320/3min = 3degrees/3minutes=1degree/minute. For the function above, you have to use yards-knots-deg/minute.

It is bearing rate actually that is calculated by the stopwatch in order to give the speed of the target. Of course, the bearing rate changes so you have to keep no more than 3minutes for calculation. Furthermore, the greater the bearing change (great AoB, high speed) the more accurate the bearing rate is.

[Paul Riley]

Bearing rate is the change of bearing for given time. This means in 3minutes the target traveled from 320 to 323. So the bearing rate = 323-320/3min = 3degrees/3minutes=1degree/minute. For the function above, you have to use yards-knots-deg/minute.

It is bearing rate actually that is calculated by the stopwatch in order to give the speed of the target. Of course, the bearing rate changes so you have to keep no more than 3minutes for calculation. Furthermore, the greater the bearing change (great AoB, high speed) the more accurate the bearing rate is.

Ahh,he wanted to know how bearing is calculated,I thought he wanted to actually know what bearing WAS ;)

[Paul Riley]

One thing that always got me curious was,why was 3 mins 15 secs used to calculate speed?,why the 3 mins and why the 15 secs? I mean 3 mins is hardly a reliable way to determine a ship's speed.
I much prefer the fixed line method of watching the target and matching speed accordingly,usually for between 15-30mins
I even read somewhere that skilled commanders could estimate speed based on the rate smoke came out of the funnel and the turbulence of the ship's wake,at least to determine whether it was slow,med,fast that is.

Thanks.

[flag4]

One thing that always got me curious was,why was 3 mins 15 secs used to calculate speed?,why the 3 mins and why the 15 secs? I mean 3 mins is hardly a reliable way to determine a ship's speed.
I much prefer the fixed line method of watching the target and matching speed accordingly,usually for between 15-30mins
I even read somewhere that skilled commanders could estimate speed based on the rate smoke came out of the funnel and the turbulence of the ship's wake,at least to determine whether it was slow,med,fast that is.

Thanks.

Jesus, P.Riley, you know your stuff!!:yep:

[maillemaker]

I'm confused how range does not matter for other-than-90-degree-to-track shots?

how to do that without drawing course on map?? how can i know that iam perfect 90 not 93 for example??

You don't have to have a perfect 90 to track. The closer the better, of course.

I always draw the track of the target ship as one of the first things I do. Since I have map updates on it is trivial as I just zoom up on the ship until I can see the shape of the ship and then draw a line through it.

Are you pressing "pause" during your mathematic operations ?

I don't. With fixed-wire it's all done very quickly. Usually I have time to kill waiting for the target to cross my 000 gyro.

Steve

[Stavros]

You don't have to have a perfect 90 to track. The closer the better, of course.

I always draw the track of the target ship as one of the first things I do. Since I have map updates on it is trivial as I just zoom up on the ship until I can see the shape of the ship and then draw a line through it.

Thanks for replay :)

I have "gods eye" off so i must measure distance to target twice using periscope and then i can draw target course, everything is all right when sea is calm but when storm came up its almost impossible to do... and i cant hit anything. When i have correct two distance "points" and betwen them i got 3min 15sec brake the rest its piece of cake :salute:

I must try that Fast 90 method!

[Hitman]

I'm confused how range does not matter for other-than-90-degree-to-track shots?

Because of the convergence: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121744

[Hitman]

I even read somewhere that skilled commanders could estimate speed based on the rate smoke came out of the funnel and the turbulence of the ship's wake,at least to determine whether it was slow,med,fast that is.

With some practice you can do that also in SH3. Telling of a merchant ship is going slow, medium or fast is not difficult, and you will rarely miss by more than 1-2 knots. The trick is to know how the bow wake looks like, and differentiate three status: Low, medium, high wake. The first one appears with speeds from 2 to 4 knots, the second from 5 to 7 and the third one from 8 onwards. Thus if you set as enemy speed value respectively 3,6 and 9 knots, you will rarely miss if you are close enough. Only rarely a merchant ship in SH3 is going at more than 10 knots, it must be an Ocean liner or fast troop transport -and those you will recognize easily-

[geosub1978]

Why range is not necessary, I think I explained it on the previous posts, take a more in depth look and you will see that it is clear:yep:.

The formula to calculate speed from bow spray is 4/3XsqrH, where H is the distance between the peaks of the TWO created bow waves. There are always TWO bow waves. One around the bow and a second after that, depending on speed. The greater the speed the greater the distance. For fast small craft the second wave is created at the stern of the boat. I don't think these are implemented in the game. There is also a method to measure the speed from hydrophone, by measuring the beats of the propeller and multiplying with TPK of the ship. This was moded in the game a long long time ago for the stock ships. It was cool but unfortunately it was not developed any further.

Guys I think you have misunderstand the phylosophy of approach and attack. The aim of the fire control team is to collect the data from various sensors and plotting, they announce them to the captain and the captain desides which coarse-speed-range will be used for the attack. That's why the theory one torpedo - one ship was used only from top attacker like Kretchmer. The others kept on shooting spreads in order to compensate inaccurancies. That's why Mush Morton was critisised after his third patrol when he shot some 10 torpedoed to 10 ships all missed and the Command accused him for not using spreads.

So, I would suggest to keep on tracking the target, measure the speed with stop watch and any other method you want, deside a FINAL speed and set it.

Finally the 3minutes comes from the periscope observations. These take place every 3 minutes in order to reduce exposure. For synchronization, data from the other sensors are collected also every 3 minutes at the same time. For the 15seconds, I have no idea.

[geosub1978]

To end it up once and for all and I think, everyone will agree.

For straight shots (up to 20deg gyro) the range doesn't have anything to do with the desired Firing Angle=Deflection Angle=DA.

TorpSpeed x sinusDA = TargetSpeed x sinus AoB. See, no range!
These are a fact nomatter if the impact angle is 90degrees (vertical shot) or 10degrees (down throat).

Now, a curved shot gyro>20-25 is another thing, like Hitman describes!
I remind you that BARHAM was sunk with 90deg left gyro angle!!!

P.S. see this
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=145921

[Paul Riley]

Jesus, P.Riley, you know your stuff!!:yep:

Trust me,there are an elite few in here that would make me look amateur :shucks:
We all get better in time,and YOU will if you stick at it.
Thanks for your compliment by the way :yep:

[Chisum]

Hum...
Sorry mates, but what must I do about it ?

http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/13/87/46/18/sans_t21.gif


:-?

[Paul Riley]

With some practice you can do that also in SH3. Telling of a merchant ship is going slow, medium or fast is not difficult, and you will rarely miss by more than 1-2 knots. The trick is to know how the bow wake looks like, and differentiate three status: Low, medium, high wake. The first one appears with speeds from 2 to 4 knots, the second from 5 to 7 and the third one from 8 onwards. Thus if you set as enemy speed value respectively 3,6 and 9 knots, you will rarely miss if you are close enough. Only rarely a merchant ship in SH3 is going at more than 10 knots, it must be an Ocean liner or fast troop transport -and those you will recognize easily-

Nice tips :cool:

[flag4]

Hum...
Sorry mates, but what must I do about it ?

http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/13/87/46/18/sans_t21.gif


:-?

enabling the mod *may* well screw-up those in the box: it may cause conflict = crashes, problems, unstable game etc.

you have to chose.

...i think i'm right. i have had the same a few times and went ahead only to discover problems later in the game; for example my SH3 CTD'd.

so now i dont bother and try to find a mod configuration that works.

[sergei]

The trick is to know how the bow wake looks like, and differentiate three status: Low, medium, high wake. The first one appears with speeds from 2 to 4 knots, the second from 5 to 7 and the third one from 8 onwards.

Nice tips :cool:

Seconded.
Very useful Hitman.
I've only just started playing with contacts off, so I'll start looking out for this.
Thanks :up:

[Didd]

Paul,


One thing that always got me curious was,why was 3 mins 15 secs used to calculate speed?,why the 3 mins and why the 15 secs? I mean 3 mins is hardly a reliable way to determine a ship's speed.



The reason for this is that to convert Km/s to Knots you multiply by 1942.8. Therefore in 195 seconds (3 min 15s), 1942.8/195 is 10. Therefore distance travelled in Km * 10 in 195s gives speed in Kt.

Didd

[sharkbit]

One thing that always got me curious was,why was 3 mins 15 secs used to calculate speed?,why the 3 mins and why the 15 secs? I mean 3 mins is hardly a reliable way to determine a ship's speed.


It's simply simple. :O:

It's a quick and easy way to determine a target's speed. Another handy and simple tool to use. No real math involved, simple to use in the heat of battle, if you have a little time.

If you measure the distance traveled in meters in 3 min 15 sec, drop two zeros(or move decimal places, divide by 100, whatever floats your boat), you get the target speed in knots.
600 meters in 3:15=6 knots.
Simple.

The 3 minute rule is for yards.
600 yards in 3 minutes=6 knots.
Simple

I usually check it at least 3 times using this method, preferably 4 to get a good reading.

:)

[Paul Riley]

Paul,



The reason for this is that to convert Km/s to Knots you multiply by 1942.8. Therefore in 195 seconds (3 min 15s), 1942.8/195 is 10. Therefore distance travelled in Km * 10 in 195s gives speed in Kt.

Didd

Now I see the relationship with 3min 15secs
Thanks for that.

[Flopper]

For synchronization, data from the other sensors are collected also every 3 minutes at the same time. For the 15seconds, I have no idea.

If you measure the meters travelled in 3:15, just divide by 100 and you have the speed in knots. If they've travelled 850 meters in 3:15, they're moving at 8 1/2 knots.

Edit: DOH, I see I'm a bit late, lol.

[Paul Riley]

It's simply simple. :O:

It's a quick and easy way to determine a target's speed. Another handy and simple tool to use. No real math involved, simple to use in the heat of battle, if you have a little time.

If you measure the distance traveled in meters in 3 min 15 sec, drop two zeros(or move decimal places, divide by 100, whatever floats your boat), you get the target speed in knots.
600 meters in 3:15=6 knots.
Simple.

The 3 minute rule is for yards.
600 yards in 3 minutes=6 knots.
Simple

I usually check it at least 3 times using this method, preferably 4 to get a good reading.

:)

Dont get me wrong,i've used this method a lot,and still do,I just didnt quite understand the reason for 3mins 15secs,I thought any duration of time could have been used.
Nonetheless,it is a quick and easy method and thats all that matters.I usually combine this method with fixed line and compare the results,usually for about 30mins.
:yep:

[Paul Riley]

If you measure the meters travelled in 3:15, just divide by 100 and you have the speed in knots. If they've travelled 850 meters in 3:15, they're moving at 8 1/2 knots.

Edit: DOH, I see I'm a bit late, lol.

Dont mean to sound naive,what does the 100 represent? ;)

[Hitman]

Guys I think you have misunderstand the phylosophy of approach and attack. The aim of the fire control team is to collect the data from various sensors and plotting, they announce them to the captain and the captain desides which coarse-speed-range will be used for the attack. That's why the theory one torpedo - one ship was used only from top attacker like Kretchmer. The others kept on shooting spreads in order to compensate inaccurancies.

Hummm that's not exactly how it worked in the german Uboats. There was no "fire control team" unlike in US subs. In fact, most if not all the workload on doing the solution was a task of the commander, who guesstimated many values based on seaman's eye. Kretschmer was one of the commanders with a better eye for this, and hence he was able to hit many ships in critical points with only one torpedo. He also was able to do that in a period where he could stay surfaced and shoot from close range. And it was not rare at all that he missed a ship but the torpedo blew another one that was behind. That's one of the good things of shooting from inside a convoy :)

Originally Posted by Chisum http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images_acpb/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1350999#post1350999)
Hum...
Sorry mates, but what must I do about it ?

http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/13/87/46/18/sans_t21.gif

Chisum,

post that in my Optics mod thread and I will answer it, I don't want to hijack this thread OK? :up:

[Paul Riley]

That's one of the good things of shooting from inside a convoy :)


One of my fav convoy tactics,hit em hard and fast without warning (surfaced at night) from within,and exit even faster :up:
...Until radar appears that is

[Flopper]

Dont mean to sound naive,what does the 100 represent? ;)

No problem, Paul. In this case it's just a constant that you'd use to quickly get the speed if you know the meters travelled in 3:15.

Meters travelled in 3:15 / 100 = Speed in knots!
Yards travelled in 3:00 / 100 = Speed in knots!

It's easiest to see when converting yards travelled to knots (nautical miles per hour... a nautical mile being 2000 yards.) If you are travelling at 10 knots, you would travel 20,000 yards in an hour. 3 minutes is 1/20 of an hour. So 20,000 / 20 = 1000. Hence our 10 knot target travels 1000 yards in 3 minutes, 1000 yards /100 (the constant) = 10. Knots.

The same applies for meters, but use 3:15 instead. I hope I made it better, and not worse. :DL

[sharkbit]

I thought any duration of time could have been used.
:yep:

Any duration of time can be used using the formula r=d/t
r=rate
d=distance traveled
t=time

Of course that requires some gyrations with math and converting units.

Have you ever tried the KM Whizwheel that klh made?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126824&highlight=whizwheel

I made one using card stock. It is also a part of a couple of the GUI's floating around out there.
It's two sided. One side helps with courses, AOB, lead angle, etc. The other side can be used for figuring speeds and some distances.
Together, you can plot interceptions, speed based on bearing changes, and quite a few other things. If so inclined, you could do all the calculations the TDC does using that tool and fire eels without even using the TDC.

Very helpful tool with manual targeting. I use the one I made a fair amount of time, half to keep in practice and half the time for the fun/immersion.
Once you get used to it, you can figure stuff out pretty quick. Kinda like the old slide rules(All the young whipper-snappers are going "Huh? Slide rule? WTH is that?"). My father-in-law used to be able to do calculations on his slide rule faster than most people could using a calculator.

:)

EDIT: My bad-Hitman actually developed it I believe. It looks like klh wrote the manual. Here is hitman's link:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=529806&postcount=1

[Flopper]

Kinda like the old slide rules(All the young whipper-snappers are going "Huh? Slide rule? WTH is that?"). My father-in-law used to be able to do calculations on his slide rule faster than most people could using a calculator.

Speaking of sliderules, I found these to be awesome:

http://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/index.html

You can download the whole set to your desktop. My dad used to have these things laying around, but I don't know where they are now. I saw some real ones for sale... they wanted a mint.

[Pisces]

The 3min15sec rule stems from the yard/knot relationship used mostly by the US navy, or whoever also uses yards as a measurement unit. Well, you needed to in SH1 anyway. And thesedays in SC and DW.

1 nautical mile is roughly 2000 yards. (2025 to be more precise) In 3 minutes (1/20th of an hour) an object going 1 knot would have moved about 100 yards. So it is easy to calculate the speed if you can measure it's distance travelled in 3 minutes, just measure in units of hundred yards.

Since SH3 uses the metric system the 3 minute didn't hold anymore. Meters are about 10% longer that a yard. So the time period had to be enlarged a bit. The correct time would be 194.4 seconds as allready shown above. But rounding it up to 15 seconds is just so much easier in practice. The seconds handle moves a quarter of a circle forward on the dial after every interval. 3m15s, 6m30s, 9m45s, 13m. Easy to remember. Luckily the minute handle of the SH3 stopwatch goes to 12 minutes. Just another minute waiting on a full lap by the seconds handle and you've got 4 time intervals. Good enough for 0.25 knots accuracy. And you can't enter much more precise in the TDC anyway.

[Paul Riley]

Many thanks flopper,sharkbit and pisces.
Maths wasnt ever my geatest asset at school but I certainly understand these formulas now :know:
Pisces,your last description of the 3.15 rule was about as clear and spot on as you could get,thanks.I also really only understand/use the metric system for measurement.

[Snestorm]

Oh dear,surely Zeus will be angry for this.Beware the thunderstorms :o:timeout:

Thunder is Thor's department.
Don't worry about that Zeus guy.

[geosub1978]

See this,
http://home.cogeco.ca/~gchalcraft/sm/attack.html (http://home.cogeco.ca/%7Egchalcraft/sm/attack.html)

it's from the enemy's point of view but the result should be the same!

[dfscott]

I'm new to all this, but I found this to be useful as well.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1358

[Snestorm]

@geosub1978

Excellent post.
Thanks.

[commandosolo2009]

These questions to the heros of SH3 who play in 100% realism.

How can I take the right mesurements of the distance if I can't use the SH3 internal system mesurement due the boat move all the time ?

How can I identifie a ship by night if I can't see absolutly anything ?

Is SH3 100% realism mod reserved to play by daylight and quiet sea ?

Thanks in advance.


actually you can minimize boat rocking by taking her to periscope depth..


Ident ship is really easy.. just use a magnifying glass on top of the screen.. on the other hand if the pptn is heavy, fog is heavy and clouds are overcast, you cant see *it.. best bet is to guestimate. or even set by default fish to 3 or 4 meters.. 3 serves most DDs and 4 serves most mercs..