Modern Destroyers

[HundertzehnGustav]

Hi Yall...
I have a Question for those of you that know something about modern Warships...

from a "modern destroyer and general warship noob"

Here goes.
In the golf of aden, off the somali coast, Modern warships that cost 10s od millions of Dollars and Euroes are safeguarding shipping lanes, not much unlie back in WWII... hopping from hotspot to hotspot distress call to distress call.

Their enemies are small Boats, between 10 feet and up to 50 feet long from what i gather. Manned with kalashnikov wielding RPG swinging Pistols Bracing men... threatning tankers and cargoes...

Now i find that, as is normal, quite distrurbing.

What i (pretend to) know

But these Destroyers all have one single large Cannon up front, a single or two AA guns, anti-missile-missiles, anti ship missiles and cruise missiles and such.
The Large Cannons seem to be similar in caliber to those carried on old WWII destroyers. Okay, they have been upgraded in electronics, motorics and Ammunition and are WAY more accurate, destructive and fast firing nowadays.


Sailors and boarding commandoes aboard are probably armed with 7.62mm Machione pistols, Pistols, and maybe even some long range (sniper) rifles?

The Helicopters they carry (Sea lynx, SH60...) are armed with Torpedoes or anti ship Missiles (Lolz:D) and machineguns of up to .50 inch calibers in the doors...

The question that arises...

How the Blue funk do they chase down the pirates?
turning a DD to hunt the :arrgh!: is timeconsuming, and there are too few DDs around the zone to do so.

Deploying the Choppers, armed with machineguns, puts the choppers in range of small caliber fire and the odd bazooka. God beware if the ragheads ever lay their hands on a bunch of IR guided Missiles:o:timeout: a la stinger?!!

and if wou find one or two of their boats or mother ships, how do you destroy these things asap if you cannot go near them with the chopper, and your DD is 25 miles away?

all you can do is track them and attempt to discourage them from acting by showing the flag?

would smaller, but faster Warships with more Firepower instead of large modern DDs not be more effective to do the Job?

I am thinking of tracked Miniguns on the DDs, two or more cannons of large caliber, Helicopters with guided missiles and Rocket pods...

something more "down to earth"... something "lots of guns in your face":D

Forgive me for the heap of questions... but it is, to me, an interesting subject, and i would like learn a bit more about how the "war against pirates" is fought...

[Sailor Steve]

It's hard to hit a fast-moving target, and especially so if you're firing a hand-held weapon from a small boat pitching and rolling on the sea. Traditional anti-aircraft weapons are fairly heavy caliber and long-ranged. A .50 mounted in a chopper door has a much better chance of hitting (and killing) a small vessel than same vessel does of returning the favor with any kind of weapons they'll have.

A stinger? Sure. On the other hand all the chopper has to do is get between the pirates and their home until the 40-knot destroyer gets there. And there aren't too many smaller, faster vessels that can do the job a modern destroyer can. Riverine-type boats aren't really any faster, and don't have near the range to patrol a big area. The destroyer is just about perfect.

[Raptor1]

To do anything effective to those things you have to get in the range of their weapons, but a properly equipped helicopter or the DD itself easily outguns whatever a small pirate boat is capable of carrying, so it's rarely a contest. Do you risk return fire? Sure, but that's your job anyway...

[HundertzehnGustav]

To illustrate my "point"... here two shots of US destroyers

http://www.venik4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/uss_vella_gulf_001.jpg

and the Good old Cannon loaded Fletcher classes

http://abbot.us/DD629/fletcher/sullivans.gif


Hmm... :06: Modern destroyers not correctly armed for this kind of "guerilla" warfare?

[HundertzehnGustav]

To do anything effective to those things you have to get in the range of their weapons, but a properly equipped helicopter or the DD itself easily outguns whatever a small pirate boat is capable of carrying, so it's rarely a contest. Do you risk return fire? Sure, but that's your job anyway...


of course...
i am not saying the DD is in danger. such a boat with half a dozen pirates with kalashnikovs, RPGs , even if they all fired properly and hit the DD...
would do nothing more that unleash the anger of said DD crew, a short call back home to confirm the ability to fire...

a thing i would like to see on youtube.
Massaker. :yeah:
Pure Massaker :yeah:
*popcorn*

[Raptor1]

The Fletcher's 5"ers won't be very effective against the small pirate boats, at least not any more than the single gun on the modern DDs...

[HundertzehnGustav]

It's hard to hit a fast-moving target, and especially so if you're firing a hand-held weapon from a small boat pitching and rolling on the sea. Traditional anti-aircraft weapons are fairly heavy caliber and long-ranged. A .50 mounted in a chopper door has a much better chance of hitting (and killing) a small vessel than same vessel does of returning the favor with any kind of weapons they'll have.

A stinger? Sure. On the other hand all the chopper has to do is get between the pirates and their home until the 40-knot destroyer gets there. And there aren't too many smaller, faster vessels that can do the job a modern destroyer can. Riverine-type boats aren't really any faster, and don't have near the range to patrol a big area. The destroyer is just about perfect.


Yea , having red that story of US soldiers in the skies over murgadhishu tells me that a kalashnikov or an RPG aint a big threat...
But getting my Chopper shot at, (and if it were s lingshot) wouldnt make me feel good if i was the DD capitain...:hmmm::-?:stare:

Riverine boats...
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/riverine_squad.jpg

Hmmm Hell yea!
Not really what i would wish for in a gunfight... two .30s or .50s up front, small radar equipment.... maybe a handhelt guided missile or two?

but then again, the Boat is not the best weapons platform for such weapons. not at high sea!
:hmmm:

[HundertzehnGustav]

The Fletcher's 5"ers won't be very effective against the small pirate boats, at least not any more than the single gun on the modern DDs...


But some proper long range AAA fire laid down on them would?


these Pirates, in my mind they are somewhat uneducated...
five simutaneous splashes from the 5'' Cuns, a few dozen feet from the rocking boat would sure as hell discourage me!

and there would be no need to put such an expensive, modern DD at risk?

[Sailor Steve]

But some proper long range AAA fire laid down on them would?
Well, a 20mm phalanx can put out 3000 rounds per minute, or 50 rounds per second. I'd say yes.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Maybe complement each Destroyer (long range, Chopper carrying, missile launching) with such "small" vessels as a corvette?

One destroyer, commanding and controlling up to five corvettes?

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/laksamana/images/laks4.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laksamana_class_corvette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laksamana_class_corvette)

The Laksamana Class is armed with a 76 mm 62 calibre Oto Melara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oto_Melara) Super Rapid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otobreda_76_mm) gun is installed on the bow deck in front of the citadel. The firing rate is 120 rounds/minute and range is up to 16 km. The ships are also armed with the 40 mm Oto Melara L70 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARDO) twin gun in the multi-role mode over a range of 12.5 km and firing rate of 300 rounds/minute

aint that JUST the kind of firepower that is needed on the right platform?
(fast, manoevrable, strong firepower)

instead of a Destroyer?:D

[HundertzehnGustav]

Well, a 20mm phalanx can put out 3000 rounds per minute, or 50 rounds per second. I'd say yes.

heard of these S.O.B s installed on US carriers against close range Missiles.
:o:o:o

Phalanx vs Pirate boat = big fun:haha:

[Oberon]

Specifications (SH-60B)

Data from Brassey's World Aircraft & Systems Directory,[35] Navy fact file,[14] and Sikorsky S-70B[36][37]
General characteristics


Crew: 3–4
Capacity: 5 passengers in cabin or slung load of 6,000 lb or internal load of 4,100 lb for B, F and H models and 11 passengers or slung load of 9,000 lb for S
Length: 64 ft 8 in (19.75 m)
Rotor diameter: 53 ft 8 in (16.35 m)
Height: 17 ft 2 in (5.2 m)
Disc area: 2,262 ft² (210 m²)
Empty weight: 15,200 lb (6,895 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,758 lb (8,055 kg) (ASW mission)
Useful load: 6,684 lb (3,031 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 21,884 lb (9,927 kg)
Powerplant: 2× General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft, 1,890 shp (1,410 kW) take-off power each

Performance


Maximum speed: 180 kn (333 km/h; 207 mph)
Cruise speed: 146 kn (270 km/h; 168 mph)
Range: 450 nmi (518 mi/834 km) at cruise speed
Service ceiling: 12,000 ft (3,580 m)
Rate of climb: 1,650 ft/min (8.38 m/s)

Armament



Up to three Mark 46 torpedos or Mark 50 torpedos,
AGM-114 Hellfire missile, 4 Hellfire missiles for SH-60B and HH-60H, 8 Hellfire missiles for MH-60S Block III.
AGM-119 Penguin missile (being phased out),
M60 machine gun or, M240 machine gun or GAU-16/A machine gun or GAU-17/A Minigun
Rapid Airborne Mine Clearance System (RAMICS) using Mk 44 Mod 0 30 mm Cannon

See Main Article: U.S. Helicopter Armament Subsystems


A Hellfire would ruin any pirate ships day.

Specifications (Super Lynx Series 100)

Data from Flight International World Aircraft and Systems Directory (3rd ed.)
General characteristics


Crew: 2 or 3
Payload: 737 kg[clarification needed] ()
Length: 15.241 m (50 ft)
Rotor diameter: 12.80 m (42 ft)
Height: 3.734 m for mk7; 3.785 m for mk9 (12.25 ft for mk7; 12.41 ft for mk9)
Disc area: 128.71 m² (1,385 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,291 kg (7,255 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 5,330 kg (11,750 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce Gem turboshaft, 835 kW (1,120 shp) each

Performance


Maximum speed: 324 km/h (201 mph)
Range: 528 km (328 miles) with standard tanks

Armament



Naval: 2 x torpedoes or 4x Sea Skua missiles or 2 x depth charges.
Attack: 2 x 20mm cannons, 2 x 70mm rocket pods CRV7, 8 x TOW ATGM[57]
General: 7.62mm General Purpose Machine Guns (AH.7 and AH.9), Browning AN/M3M .50 calibre heavy machine gun (HAS.3 and HMA.8)



TOW ATGMs too :yep:

Failing that though, there's also ASMs on board most destroyers if need be, and that frontal cannon. Usually though, pirates are not much of a threat unless they get into close quarter range, in which case there's enough MGs on board to put up a good defence unless they're operating under a false flag in order to get to USS Cole distance :damn:

[CaptainHaplo]

Its important to remember what kind of boats the pirates are using. They are literally speedboats - towed out to see by a larger "mothership". The range is limited, the contruction is no more solid that the skiboat that pulls you at the lake. The mothership is little more than a fishing boat - usually wooden but possibily composite hull. Your not talking about a metal hulled vessel at all.....

20 and 30 mm will chew through any of this - heck the 50 cal will sink the speedboats, even the 7.62 would if you used enough of it. A single Seahawk carries enough small ammo to take out the speedboats, and using a hellfire or tow on a mothership is pretty much overkill.

Remember that the destroyer doesn't have to be "close" - the range and speed of the SH 60 gives them a huge "coverage" area. Also - what is often done is shooting out the engines of the vessels in question with small arms = leaving them dead in the water until the nearest military vessel can close.

[HundertzehnGustav]

A Hellfire would ruin any pirate ships day.
agreed... but you have to catch that SoB... need a direct hit?
Does the navy use weapons such as the hellfire on DDs? aint
that "Army" stuff?

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_images/operations/pirates_l.jpg
extremely small target? manoevrable?:06:

M-60 Grunt FTW... but gotta get close...:-?:down:
Minigun in the side door... range+RoF :up:
(bring on the Herkules Flying Gunships ^^)


Torpedoes... anti ship missiles... LOLz:O:
such a thing would cut the pirate boat in half without even triggering an explosion.:har:
But fun on mother ships such as this one

http://racismandnationalconsciousnessnews.files.wordpress .com/2009/04/somalia-pirates.jpg

http://images.dailyradar.com/media/uploads/beltway/story_large/2008/11/25/better_photo_of_sinking_pirate_ship.jpg

Still...

Its a Freaking price to pay, just to bring a little firepower around the globe!
Damn! Hundreds of men, a Million dollar ship... and its never enough!:nope:
wish it was easier.:cry:

:damn::damn:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Its important to remember what kind of boats the pirates are using...
:doh::o

interesting...

[CCIP]

I think it's a misconception that older destroyers had more firepower than modern ones. Technically, these automatic 5" guns can deliver more firepower than all the guns of an old Fletcher combined. Same goes for the air defense weapons. Even ignoring the improved accuracy, these things do put more metal in the air quicker.

And sure these ships are overkill for what they generally hunt. But there really isn't an alternative. You do want a ship that can both overwhelmingly outgun the pirates, and patrol a stretch of sea for weeks on end without a problem. Given the large area of ocean that needs to be covered, there's not really any other option besides sending the frigates and destroyers. Especially with the LCS program more or less stalled, there just isn't a smaller ship that would be actually effective in this role.

I'd like to see UAVs/USVs developed specifically for this kind of patrol role though. They could be a big help and save a lot of money, even if they can't outright replace manned patrols.

[HundertzehnGustav]

LCS? Littoral Combat Ship?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/gd-lcs-side-001.jpg

LCS is an innovative combatant designed to counter challenging shallow-water threats in coastal regions, specifically mines, submarines and fast surface craft.


something like that?

Well if Fireposer is most used via a Chopper..

Hmm... multiple choppers, Small and Big guns.... Crew and Soldiers aboard... full systems...:D get rid of the intercontinental missile scheisse...:haha:

sounds excellent!:up:
sort of a coastal destroyer...:sunny:

[Jimbuna]

There is one option that hasn't been tried yet.....convoys.

[HundertzehnGustav]

STOPPPP:timeout:

i thought it earlier this evening...
but no. please no. what a pain in the ass that was back in the day...

that would screw up our entire economy.
all that because of a few hundred (a thousand? two?) bastards who are playing big boys?

before we do convoys, i hope we send over a fleet of B-52s... or launch attacks against their coastal bases... send some mo' Ships or an aircraft carrier on station...

Convoys....:o:timeout:

[Oberon]

There is one option that hasn't been tried yet.....convoys.

That's a fair point Jim. I wonder if it'd work out warship amount vis a vis merchant amount though, I mean, there aren't as many destroyers in our navy as there was back in the war, I'm not sure about the US navy though, but then again as a coalition of forces there should be enough.

[Castout]

I'd just send Dowly waaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper :rotfl2:


But corvettes and frigates would do the job just fine. The thing is the DDs probably can't patrol the area due to their small numbers so the only way to make the transit off the coast of Somali safe is by means of escort. Or even better a deployment of small aircraft carrier or attack helo carrier but this would cost too much money.





Perhaps a psychological warfare of some sort is needed to deter some percentage of pirating. Send in a seemingly precious ship off the coast of Somalia only that the ship is loaded with special force team(GIGN, etc) so making the ship effectively a mouse trap . . .:gulp: but of course it's more risky . . .

[Jimbuna]

That's a fair point Jim. I wonder if it'd work out warship amount vis a vis merchant amount though, I mean, there aren't as many destroyers in our navy as there was back in the war, I'm not sure about the US navy though, but then again as a coalition of forces there should be enough.

By my reckoning you'd only need two or three per convoy at most (mainly for helicopter anti surface warfare).

They aren't exactly up against anything other than a few speed boats and small arms fire at best.

[Raptor1]

Perhaps a psychological warfare of some sort is needed to deter some percentage of pirating. Send in a seemingly precious ship off the coast of Somalia only that the ship is loaded with special force team(GIGN, etc) so making the ship effectively a mouse trap . . .:gulp: but of course it's more risky . . .

That's not psychological warfare, that's a Q-ship almost exactly as it was used against German submarines in the Great War. In fact, this has been suggested quite a few times as a measure against pirates...

[Jimbuna]

That's not psychological warfare, that's a Q-ship almost exactly as it was used against German submarines in the Great War. In fact, this has been suggested quite a few times as a measure against pirates...


Q-ship eh? :hmmm:

They can have my mod at a knock down rate :DL

[TLAM Strike]

You all forgot the major thing about our modern DDGs and CGs, the radar! Aegis tracks dozens of targets, that can include these Boston Whalers the pirates like to use. P-3s and Helos provide additional coverage and can chase down suspected pirate vessels.

The Aircraft give the DDG the location of suspect vessel the DDG then goes there and deploys its RHIB to inspect it and take the crew in to custody if necessary. This part is called a VBSS: Visit Board Search and Seizure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visit,_Board,_Search,_and_Seizure).
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9218/090602n0743b031.th.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/090602n0743b031.jpg/)
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/83/090602n0743b062.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/090602n0743b062.jpg/)

Combating Piracy is not about FIREPOWER! Its about Policing and Deterrence, its about having ships and planes and drones that can keep an eye on what every ship is doing in a region. A lot of these pirates will just dump their guns, ladders and grappling hooks over the side when a Coalition chopper shows up. Very few shoot it out with Coalition warships and when they do the .50 cal guns mounted on the deck and bridge wings of a DDG does wonders- our gunners are very good especially after the USS Cole.

[Cambaz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHNhcE6dzbY

thats how it suppose to be done :arrgh!:

[OneToughHerring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHNhcE6dzbY

thats how it suppose to be done :arrgh!:

That's really going to make your Muslim buddies happy. :)

[Cambaz]

That's really going to make your Muslim buddies happy. :)

maybe or maybe not...

[OneToughHerring]

maybe or maybe not...

Well welcome anyway. I'm sure you'll have many fun discussions with Skybird & co. here. :)

[Castout]

That's not psychological warfare, that's a Q-ship almost exactly as it was used against German submarines in the Great War. In fact, this has been suggested quite a few times as a measure against pirates...

It may not best termed as psychological warfare...but it would sure scare the pirates the next time they see one of those ships off their coast. Thanks for the info I didn't know it's been suggested but I guess the idea is not too far fetched to be coined after all suggesting its feasibility.

[TLAM Strike]

There is one option that hasn't been tried yet.....convoys.

Its being done... :ping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIrYhgTaGv8&NR=1

[JSLTIGER]

To illustrate my "point"... here two shots of US destroyers

http://www.venik4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/uss_vella_gulf_001.jpg


I'm kind of surprised no one has caught this yet...technically, this is a picture of a Ticonderoga-class CRUISER (Yes, I know they were laid down as DDGs and reclassified as CGs, but they are officially cruisers).

[Jimbuna]

Its being done... :ping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIrYhgTaGv8&NR=1

And about time too http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[TarJak]

A few of these beauties should keep them in check:
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/msd/sea1444/images/armidale.jpg

[Oberon]

A few of these beauties should keep them in check:


Hammersley!! :rock:

[Oberon]

Its being done... :ping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIrYhgTaGv8&NR=1

Wow, the false attacks sound almost like wolfpack tactics.

Ironic really, the difference in pirates and merchant raiders is perhaps the absence of a declaration of war.

[TarJak]

Hammersley!! :rock:LOL

[Jimbuna]

I still think the ultimate/best deterrent (even better than the convoy method) is some kind of CAP from a helicopter carrier or a string of strategically place frigates dotted along the merchant routes....enough units for 24/7 coverage.

Perhaps AWAC coverage out of Kenya to co-ordinate the effort.

Thirdly....a tariff placed on the shipping companies (subsidised by those countries currently playing a protectionist role) to pay for one of the US supercarriers to remain on station.

[TLAM Strike]

fatty wrote a great thesis about combating piracy a while back, I recommend everyone take a look. Its on the last post of this thread.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148339