[TEC]GR2 files and Granny Viewer

[Madox58]

As alot of misconceptions and good information is being spread through
many different threads?

I'll start a thread dedicated to the GR2 stuff.

First, if you don't have the Granny Viewer and know how to use it?
You're working blind!
Go get it here:
http://www.radgametools.com/granny/download.html

I'll start some basic info I am sure of and add info as the days go by.

GR2 files in SH5 are not compressed but Goblin and SH5 can still
use them both.
SH5 uses the granny2.dll which is coded to read compressed and
non-compressed GR2 files.
Ubi did not change the granny2.dll in any way.
I'm not even sure if they would be allowed to change that dll.
The exporter can be modified, I think,
from reading the Granny Viewer info,
and what I know from other sources.

Ubi did not seem to modify the granny exporter in anyway and used
nearly an 'off the shelf' setup for exporting.
Which means decodeing them should be a fairly straight forward project.

There are Granny exporters for several 3D programs out there.
Useing them to import for SH5 could lead to Legal troubles!
I suggest takeing the High Road and not doing it!
You will get caught!
I'm also not sure of total compatability between versions.

There are exporters out there to extract from the GR2 format.
None seem to work for me to my satisfaction.
I invite anyone to send me a Completely extracted GR2 file from SH5.
Even a complete Model with all the meshes is OK.
Haveing all the Bones is a plus!

There is Source code out there for some Granny stuff.
Some of the best is very old but still useful.
Here's an example:
http://www.koders.com/cpp/fid6594068F9C36670989D07395C127AB3E909AEE64.aspx?s =matrix
It's about the old Granny format but useful nonetheless.

[Madox58]

reserved for future use thank you

[TheDarkWraith]

tried every exporter I could find on the web (even the NWN2 ones and AOE3) and couldn't get any to export correctly, if even at all. There is one trick that does work. The GLXtractor will extract meshes from the Granny Viewer but they are not positioned in 3D correctly (they are sheared from their origin). It takes a little time but using the Goblin editor you can find where 'center' is and reposition the meshes using 3DS Max or Wings3D (I setup the GLXtractor to extract the meshes into .obj form). This does not give any bone info though - just the raw mesh data (Seadler helpmed me with that :up:)

[Madox58]

Does it extract the UV's?
I have it but it does not want to work right for some reason.
And getting a model that's all whacked out of position
is a pain also.

[TheDarkWraith]

Does it extract the UV's?
I have it but it does not want to work right for some reason.
And getting a model that's all whacked out of position
is a pain also.

yep, it'll extract the texture coords also. If it would only position the model correctly when it extracts it it would be a useful tool.

[Chebawookee]

I think the key is the grannyloader.dll which puts that all together. This dll is from UBI.
For example:
Open the NSS_Uboat7b.GR2 one time in Gobblin-Editor and then in Granny Viewer.
In Granny Viewer you will only see what is in the NSS_Uboat7b.GR2 file. No interior, only a few doors and hatches.
In Gobblin you will see the contents of many gr2 files put together.

[Anvart]

Extracted from Granny Viewer through 3D PrintScreen (for D3D & OGL) into 3Dxml:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3570/3dxml3dviaprintscreen.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5734/3dxml3dprintscreen.jpg

...
and MaxScript for importing *.3Dxml into 3ds Max 9...11(2009) ...
...
"3D XML is a universal lightweight XML-based format for quick and easy sharing of 3D data."
.................................................. .................................................. ........................
Example shown more low...
* Load file into Goblin;
* "Extract" from Goblin using 3D PrintScreen into *.3Dxml format;
* Import into 3ds Max using maxscript.
And no any superfluous "body's movements" ...


http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1641/3dpsgoblin.jpg

[TheDarkWraith]

Extracted from Granny Viewer through 3D PrintScreen into 3Dxml:

is the extracted mesh sheared from it's original origin? Using the GLXtractor works for extracting mesh data but it's sheared from it's original origin.

[Anvart]

1:1
Look second pic: pantalons, torso, head, eyes and helmet... all are on correct places...
...
glXtractor ---> former OGLE(xtractor) + GLIntercept... limited using... not convenient... :down:
May be the latest is not bad?
URL: http://members.chello.at/alexan/ogle/GLXtractor.zip
Size: 1368649

P.S.
If you grabs mesh from Goblin... you have displacement as in Goblin...
If you grabs from Gr-Viewer... you have displacement as in Gr-Viewer...

[Madox58]

:03:

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Gremlin_Test.png

[mad]

Maby http://www.deep-shadows.com/hax/3DRipperDX.htm ?

Unfortunately there is still question how to export 3d model from max so SH5 can read it.

[TheDarkWraith]

Maby http://www.deep-shadows.com/hax/3DRipperDX.htm ?

Unfortunately there is still question how to export 3d model from max so SH5 can read it.

that was one of the first things I tried. Doesn't work.

[mad]

that was one of the first things I tried. Doesn't work.

Which part? I was able to capture all the geometry and textures.
It works great. Since there is no 3dr importer for 3dmax2009 I've used option to export model as .obj and as such I've imported it into max

When I've seen scene at first it looked like a some kind of egg, but then when I've zoomed in I've found ship that I've captured from museum.
One thing: when capturing scene I've set camera at side of ship and lowered camera almost to surface of water. First I've tried default view capture but 3d model was totally,ehm...twisted.
This way when I set camera at side and to surface 3d model needs to be stretched but it is just few clicks in max.

[TheDarkWraith]

Which part? I was able to capture all the geometry and textures.
It works great. Since there is no 3dr importer for 3dmax2009 I've used option to export model as .obj and as such I've imported it into max

then it must be an OS issue. What OS do you use? I have Windows 7 64 bit.

What version of 3D ripper? I have 1.7

Did you use the 'start global system monitoring' or the normal launch button?

[Madox58]

3D ripper will work for the game as the game uses Direct X.
It won't work for the Granny viewer as it uses Opengl.

[Anvart]

Did you try from Goblin?
...
... and above i see "Blender"?

[TheDarkWraith]

Did you try from Goblin?

No I didn't Anvart. I don't know why that thought didn't cross my mind. Good suggestion :up:

[Madox58]

Blender?
:hmmm:

[Anvart]

As you have begun this thread... continue. :D

[TheDarkWraith]

Finally got an extraction to work using 3D ripper DX and Goblin Editor on Windows 7 64 bit :DL

[TheDarkWraith]

I figured I would do a little sleuthing and see if I could find something in a .gr2 file. I extracted all the textures from the NSS_Uboat7a.gr2 using 3DRipperDX and the Goblin editor. Now I opened up one of the small size .dds files that was extracted in the hex editor, selected the appropriate hex that is the image and tried to search for that 'string' in the .gr2 file. It wasn't found. Now I know that the .gr2 file contains these textures as they were extracted from it. So there must be some kind of compression or something done to them when they are 'packed' into the .gr2 file.

[Madox58]

3D ripper is takeing the textures through the Direct X render to screen.
The textures are not stored in the SH5 GR2 files.
Granny Viewer will show you the path listed in the GR2 files.
To get Granny Viewer to render the SH5 textures
create an E: drive,
create folders to match what you see in the Granny Viewer,
then copy the needed textures to them.
Then fire up Granny Viewer and you get the textures!
:yep:

[TheDarkWraith]

3D ripper is takeing the textures through the Direct X render to screen.
The textures are not stored in the SH5 GR2 files.
Granny Viewer will show you the path listed in the GR2 files.
To get Granny Viewer to render the SH5 textures
create an E: drive,
create folders to match what you see in the Granny Viewer,
then copy the needed textures to them.
Then fire up Granny Viewer and you get the textures!
:yep:

very nice :up:

[Anvart]

Finally got an extraction to work using 3D ripper DX and Goblin Editor on Windows 7 64 bit :DL
Did you see old illness of 3DRipperDX - mesh deformation? :haha:
... unlike 3DVIA Printscreen (for example)! Look #7 and look #9 - the first paragraph...

[Madox58]

@Anvart,

Would extraction to 3ds file format be better then 3DVIA Printscreen?

[Anvart]

Granny © ® importer/exporter for 3ds Max (for example)... :haha:
... and then file assemblage in Goblin Editor...

[Madox58]

Goblin is to bulky for my tastes.
I get to many errors with Goblin on my system.
:damn:
I don't need the ability to see all the eye candy
while working with the base models.

A faster, more streamlined program would speed development
up for Modders.
And those who can not afford to buy a new system or upgrade?
:dead:

[Anvart]

The same prob's.
It is necessary for me to update machine... :hmmm:

P.S. 3Dxml - zipped text (xml) format... open file by notepad (xml editor) and read...
Dassault Systemes brand...
And SH5 (may be) will be interesting to me after the third patch...

[Karle94]

Could some one tell me where to find the Goblin Editor.

[LukeFF]

Could some one tell me where to find the Goblin Editor.

It's in the game's root directory.

[BigBANGtheory]

There are Granny exporters for several 3D programs out there.
Useing them to import for SH5 could lead to Legal troubles!
I suggest takeing the High Road and not doing it!

Could please explain the reasons behind this? I dont see how making modifications via an external program would be so bad its not like your ripping off the content or IP for another game (which obviously would be illegal).

...or have I missed the point entirely?

Using Max + Granny SDK seems the obvious choice from what you have described so far.

[kylania]

Could please explain the reasons behind this? I dont see how making modifications via an external program would be so bad its not like your ripping off the content or IP for another game (which obviously would be illegal).

...or have I missed the point entirely?

Using Max + Granny SDK seems the obvious choice from what you have described so far.

I think that's exactly what he's worried about. We've already had issues with textures from other games being used in mods. I agree with you though that the potential for people to do that should in no way stop the ability for it to be done. That's just doing what the DRM is doing, punishing everyone because of the possibilities of others to do something. :)

[Anvart]

@Anvart,

Would extraction to 3ds file format be better then 3DVIA Printscreen?
I wrote about the 3D PrintScreen (and about *.3Dxml - readable xml format) in this thread because here there was a speech about grabbers...
And 3D PrintScreen is free program (and 3D XML Player is free too) from Dassault Systemes (known brand using 3Dxml format)... and 3D PrintScreen is better then 3DRipperDX and GLXtractor, i think.
And guru KoichiSenada has written max script 3dsMaxConvertXML for import of *.3Dxml files into 3ds Max 9 and above...
And at last because this stuff can be used for Solidworks very simply.
**************************************************
3dsMaxConvertXML link:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/5807782/1c394251/KoichiSenada.html
...
Personally i would like to have plug-ins for direct import of *.GR2 files into 3ds Max and corresponding export.
:salute:
...
The intermediate file-format is necessary for simple compatibility with others 3D prog's...

P.S. Is this stuff not interesting for you, Privateer? :D

[Anvart]

Could some one tell me where to find the Goblin Editor.

It's in the game's root directory.
Exec. file is GoblinEditorApp.exe.

[Karle94]

Exec. file is GoblinEditorApp.exe.

Thanks.

[Madox58]

Is this stuff not interesting for you, Privateer? :D

Very interesting to me My Friend.
:yep:

I'm multi-tasking on several projects right now
so I may be a bit slow to post here.
:03:

[BigBANGtheory]

I think that's exactly what he's worried about. We've already had issues with textures from other games being used in mods. I agree with you though that the potential for people to do that should in no way stop the ability for it to be done. That's just doing what the DRM is doing, punishing everyone because of the possibilities of others to do something. :)

I follow your reasoning, I must admit the first thing I thought when I saw the sub interior was how good some of the Stalker (GSC Games) textures would be...

Besides the 'not to be done' issue of moving one games IP to another, I also saw no evidence of deep paralllax mapping in SH5 which just frankly rocks :rock:

That is pretty clear cut case of don't do that, but Privateer was meaning something else I suspect and I raise it as a legitimate question not an arguement or opposing view in any way.

[Madox58]

RAD Games OWNES the Granny stuff.
Thier tools are VERY high dollar items.
Near $12000 a pop.

I'd not like to be on the bad side of a law suit for useing tools I have no license to.

And to use Neal's forum to distribute anything made with unlicensed tools
could lead to problems for him and all of us.

That's what I'm saying.

Time will tell as to what happens and how.

[Anvart]

What do you think about intermediate file-format Collada (*.dae)? :hmmm:

[Anvart]

RAD Games OWNES the Granny stuff.
...
I'd not like to be on the bad side of a law suit for useing tools I have no license to.

And to use Neal's forum to distribute anything made with unlicensed tools
could lead to problems for him and all of us.

That's what I'm saying.

Time will tell as to what happens and how.
You are right on 200% ...
But how to convert 3D graph files from one format to other... without Granny's stuffs it's impossible. :03:
If Dev's would give the importer of 3D stuffs into Goblin editor... :haha:

[Madox58]

What do you think about intermediate file-format Collada (*.dae)? :hmmm:


I'm looking at the Collada format also.
The idea would be to get an exporter that retains the 3D model
as close to what was built in 3D Max.

By playing around I pretty much figured out how the Models are built.
How to set the 'hidden' value,
and how the cfg# nodes are done and such.

All this is done before exporting the Unit from 3D Max.
:yep:

And I'd say it was done this way before switching to the Granny system.
But it went through thier exporter instead for conversion to dat files.

[Anvart]

...
The idea would be to get an exporter that retains the 3D model
as close to what was built in 3D Max.
...
:yep:
The format allowing as much as possible to realise features of game and 3ds Max...
But if you plan to use only 3ds Max, for what to you the intermediate format is necessary? :hmmm:

[Madox58]

The .FBX format seems to be a viable export option for cross compatability.
:hmmm:
The SDK is free also.

The .obj format is probably manditory for most people though.

So proposed formats could be:
.obj
.3DS
.FBX
.X
.dae

Multiple export options is a must as I see it.

[Madox58]

After testing each format I believe the .3ds format would loose the least
amount of information on export from a GR2 file.

So that narrows it down to 2 formats I'd like to see.
.3DS
.OBJ

[Yosarian]

I would stop any attempt to decode the GR2 format, as with other games in the past RAD Game Tools the owner of Granny starts legal action against modders:stare:

[UberTorpedo]

privateer knows his way around the block. Just sit back and watch a genius at work. :up:

[skwasjer]

After testing each format I believe the .3ds format would loose the least
amount of information on export from a GR2 file.

So that narrows it down to 2 formats I'd like to see.
.3DS
.OBJ
Are you sure?

3DS is limited in that it's strings can only hold up 16 characters iirc (object names, material/texture names, etc) unless you use an extension, which makes it non-compatible to alot of 3D-programs/converters, something you'd want to prevent. It's why I dropped it for S3D.

OBJ is a big no as far as I am concerned because you have the same problems again with multiple uvw channels. What I built into S3D clearly is a hackjob and not a supported method of import by ANY 3D program. So you end up doing alot of handywork again to merge all channels.

Clearly, the only viable formats are those that support multiple uvw channels, and skeletal, mesh, matrix and texture animations (or at least a couple of these) and (VERY important!) meta data (stuff like visibility flag., matrix transforms, controller data or custom data)
The ones that come to mind are already mentioned:
- X (although I think it is officially dropped in favor for FBX)
- FBX
- Collada

[edit] But yea, in the end, you will hit a (legal) wall with regards to GR2. Unless we get an official 'endorsed' importer/exporter, best to forget about it, and hope full (legacy) DAT-support will be enabled in a future patch.

[Pintea]

3DS is limited in that it's strings can only hold up 16 characters iirc (object names, material/texture names, etc) unless you use an extension, which makes it non-compatible to alot of 3D-programs/converters, something you'd want to prevent. It's why I dropped it for S3D.

Even more, it can't store objects with a higher vertex/poly count than 65536.

[thfeu58]

[edit] But yea, in the end, you will hit a (legal) wall with regards to GR2. Unless we get an official 'endorsed' importer/exporter, best to forget about it, and hope full (legacy) DAT-support will be enabled in a future patch.

This will not happen. With which a big part of SH5 will not remain modifiable.

[Madox58]

If someone is working on a Tool,
they have not stated so in this thread.

Most of the discussion here is hypothetical at this point.
It's a way to pass information about a POSSIBLE tool,
Without all the whineing and crabbing at the Devs
found in so many other threads.

I've stated many times my concern about Legal issues.
I've also visited every site I can find that concerns GR2 file structure.
I've found no concrete evidence that RAD Games is concerned
much about past attempts.
There's alot of code out there that could be removed at thier demand
but is not.

If attempts were stopped in the past?
Most seem to have been stopped by the Game Developers
that use RAD Games Tools.

@skwasjer,

Thanks for the information.
I was not aware of the limitations in the different formats.
It's a learning process for me at this point.
:)

[coronas]

I don't sure if it's usefull or legal but...

http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=14,36458,,10

:salute:

[mookiemookie]

I've stated many times my concern about Legal issues.
I've also visited every site I can find that concerns GR2 file structure.
I've found no concrete evidence that RAD Games is concerned
much about past attempts.
There's alot of code out there that could be removed at thier demand
but is not.

If attempts were stopped in the past?
Most seem to have been stopped by the Game Developers
that use RAD Games Tools.

I sincerely hope that this is true and all is okay with your work on the legal front. I'm having a bit of fun playing the arcadey goals of SH5 until someone gets a real campaign worked up, but I'm quickly losing interest due to the lack of ships out there. I'm getting tired of sinking the same 4 ships over and over.

[skwasjer]

Even more, it can't store objects with a higher vertex/poly count than 65536.
Well true I forgot about that, but this wasn't a requirement for SH3/4 as DAT had same limit :)
If someone is working on a Tool,
they have not stated so in this thread.
Not me :)
If attempts were stopped in the past?
Most seem to have been stopped by the Game Developers
that use RAD Games Tools.
Perhaps you're right. S3D could have been stopped by Ubisoft too, for legal reasons. Still, the choice of GR2 is a wise choice from a developers perspective, but the fact that it's not an open format/SDK makes it very problematic to support by a community. DAT still isn't fully known after 5 years (although nearly there, just only that one byte in model chunk, and skeletal anim related stuff). And here we are now, we need to start over completely from scratch. It's not just how to decode it, the problem is games/3D are increasingly complex and thus more data needs to be figured out... That's a major step back without developer support.

You know, if only just they'd provide us with the header files and export some entrypoints, they don't even need to add support to Goblin...
[edit] I know about the granny DLL, but I rather not use that.

[urfisch]

to get the gr2 tools better known...i might can provide the dev-tools from rad to the ones, who need it in the hope to learn about/from it. just drop a pm. i got them from a friend of mine, but can not use them. they are only code files which need to be linked/added with the software you are working with. never understood how to do this. but i am no coder guy...maybe one of you is.

:salute:

...Anvart
Personally i would like to have plug-ins for direct import of *.GR2 files into 3ds Max and corresponding export.


and...by the way:

http://gr2decode.altervista.org/docs.html

[skwasjer]

That's exactly what I asked (calling granny2-functions isn't the problem, I've already done that, but knowing the exact parameters/structures is, even with the current available public info):

You know, if only just they'd provide us with the header files and export some entrypoints, they don't even need to add support to Goblin...

The question is, is it legal... If it is, and I can have it, that would be the only trigger for me to actually work on support for S3D. Without it, nuh-uh...

[TheDarkWraith]

That's exactly what I asked (calling granny2-functions isn't the problem, but knowing the exact parameters is):

You know, if only just they'd provide us with the header files and export some entrypoints, they don't even need to add support to Goblin...

The question is, is it legal...

there are tools one can use to find out what parameters are needed and what the parameter types are (from Microsoft of all people :o).
Is it legal? Why not? Here's a case in point:

The microsoft word format when Word was first released included no documentation on how to 'read' the file Word created. So with a little reverse engineering third party companies discovered how the file was 'created' and began making applications that could read and write word documents. Did you see Microsoft getting all upset about this? No.
And from the DRM laws enacted by this country (USA) it is not illegal to reverse engineer a file to discover how to make your application compatible with it or to discover undocumented functionality.

[Anvart]

...
and...by the way:

http://gr2decode.altervista.org/docs.html
I know about these stuffs... and more...

[kylania]

[edit] But yea, in the end, you will hit a (legal) wall with regards to GR2. Unless we get an official 'endorsed' importer/exporter, best to forget about it, and hope full (legacy) DAT-support will be enabled in a future patch.

Over on the Ubisoft forums they asked for questions to ask the devs. My question was if such tools as you're talking about will be released to players. Lets hope they answer it! :)

[skwasjer]

there are tools one can use to find out what parameters are needed and what the parameter types are (from Microsoft of all people :o).
Seriously, now you are being funny. Name one tool that can export a header file (iow. functions/parameters/constants/typedefs/etc) from a native DLL, I'd buy it instantly! I can't wait!

and look #56...
All I want is to NOT have to open a hexeditor, debugger, or other analysis tool and waste hundreds more hours. I want an API to use that does the lowlevel binary legwork for me. There's already some good info available, but it's not good enough for me.

Call me lazy :O:
Over on the Ubisoft forums they asked for questions to ask the devs. My question was if such tools as you're talking about will be released to players. Lets hope they answer it! :)
Not much else to do for me than wait :D

[TheDarkWraith]

Seriously, now you are being funny. Name one tool that can export a header file (iow. functions/parameters/constants/typedefs/etc) from a native DLL, I'd buy it instantly! I can't wait!

There is tool "undname.exe" to view undecorated names.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/5x49w699.aspx
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/b06ww5dd.aspx

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/cs/VisualDumpbin.aspx?msg=3414144

[skwasjer]

Yea I already thought you ment undecorating. So where are the parameter names, typedefs, constants, enums? Iow. the really useful stuff which is in the header, to be able to link to, and have designer support?

Undecorating functions is not good enough. Knowing a function accepts two int's doesn't tell me anything. What are these int's for then? And you need a DLL that is decorated in the first place.

But anyway.

[urfisch]

any new progress on that, after you guys got the magic tool?

[coronas]

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=31210&pagenumber=4


http://tatooinebase.star-fleet.org/Archangel/quickstart.html


:salute:

[Anvart]

...
All I want is to NOT have to open a hexeditor, debugger, or other analysis tool and waste hundreds more hours. I want an API to use that does the lowlevel binary legwork for me. There's already some good info available, but it's not good enough for me.

Call me lazy :O:

:o
What you speak about?
...
:rotfl2:
Are you assured, that you have understood me?

[Navarre]

:haha:
All internet is filled by links on old trimmed (41...45 MB :^)) version of SDK... with *2.h and *2.lib and so on...
but the use of this header file and linking the lib to an own app is illegal unless you don't own the SDK licence

[Anvart]

but the use of this header file and linking the lib to an own app is illegal unless you don't own the SDK licence
Read thread... do not repeat...
:rotfl2:
...
and you can go not fast way...
import your 3D into Goblin through *.dat file... partially... :haha:

P.S.
Info in this thread... for increase of level of your knowledge, gentlemen...

[Madox58]

Many are missing the main points of this thread.

It's already been stated we do not intend to do anything illegal.
So stop with the posts about that.
There are enuff of those already.

Posting of links to sites with useless importers is also a waste of time.
Test those programs guys!
You'll find they are worthless!
And here is the reason.

Each of those Game that released or supported exporters/importers
used a Customized, by the Devs, version of Granny.

So releaseing some information that works with EVE will NOT work with
other Games.
It's like saying since this game uses dat files it should work for
SH whatever!

That's not the case!
Granny is a highly modifiable system.
Even haveing the base granny.h file from RAD is nearly useless IF the Devs
did a custom build.

That's the beauty of RAD Games system!
And it is always changeing as they should.
What worked in 2005?
That was 5 years ago!
It don't work now.

I've watched the exporters/importers for GR2 for nearly 5 years now.
I have nearly every bit of code that was released in those years.

Yes.
I can do things with the files that most can't.
But I have NO intention to release anything I have until I know for a FACT
I won't be Sued or threatened.

RAD Games is not known as a 'Patent Monger'.
So they most likely are ignoreing us, but watching.
I would take Ubi's silence as I always have.
Watching but not saying anything as doing
'Business as Usual'.

And perhaps there's something comeing down the road?
NeverWinters never released anything till sometime had passed.

On reverse engineering?
I do it all the time.
I don't release what I find very often cause that's not what I'm after.
I do it because I've been doing it since the late '70's early '80's
It's one of my oldest hobbies.
I just want to know what is working and how it works.
I gave up the Cracking stuff for release years ago.
But I still do it to learn!

Hell! I went into the Service to learn to kill people also!
But I don't do that anymore either!

Read the whole thread,
note the positions of the posters.

Let's try to keep things on track.

[Captain von Keldunk]

"It's already been stated we do not intend to do anything illegal.":hmmm:
"Hell! I went into the Service to learn to kill people also!
But I don't do that anymore either!":06:
you do not kill people any more?.:):DL:D

[urfisch]

private...

dont care about those posts...just let us do something wonderful!

aye? aye!

:salute:

[thfeu58]

I think it is better to wait.
To wait on the last official patch.
The time are of use till then to learn.
Have we overlooked nothing? Is there with the available tools no possibility to unpack the GR2 files to be able to modify the Meshes to generate new GR2 files? Then we must learn it, how!

[Madox58]

'TriExporter'
found in the EVE forums,
is the closest I've seen for working with GR2 files.
Does 3 formats of exports.
Has a nice Viewer built in.
And allows on the fly Texture changes in the viewer.
BUT!
It does not work with SH5 GR2 files.
It first unpacks the .stuff files EVE uses.
Even adding the GR2 files to the .stuff file may not work
(I've yet to test this)
as EVE builds thier Models differently.

[Madox58]

private...

dont care about those posts...just let us do something wonderful!

aye? aye!

:salute:

I agree Mate.

I'll state it here for the first time.
I have a working viewer/exporter in a very rough form.
It's based on code releases all over the 'Net.
Plus some work of my own.
Nothing has been used from non-released source code!
Nothing I've coded uses illegal source code.

It's all done in C++ so is very compact and fast.
There are still Gremlins to sort out in the code.
So I call it Gremlin.

Gremlin is designed to be a stand alone viewer/exporter
that allows on the fly texture changes while in the viewer.

Gremlin is also intended to use plug-ins down the road.
Gremlin will not do imports to GR2 files. (Yet!)
Gremlin is not supported by Ubi nor RAD GAmes.
Gremlin is NOT available for download until I hear from the Devs
and RAD Games.

So Gremlin is just a figment of my imagination at this point.
:03:

[Jimbuna]

LOL...the mind boggles http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

[Madox58]

The mind need not boggle.

RAD Games has no reputation for stopping work like this.
I doubt they care if we export from the GR2 format.

Ubisoft has always been silent with Pack3D, S3D, and such.

I'm not bragging with Gremlin.
No more then the first notices of S3D.

It's a work in progress.
Most of the Code is simple.
To get it all to work without useing illegal source is the hard part.

No matter what I do?
I'll always be tagged as a Grey Wolf.

That lays a responsibility on me.
One I can never shrug off.
Nor would I ever want to!

My goal is to push each and everyone following this thread to get better!
You need only to capture the images in a way!
Anvart tells some clues.

Open your minds and see the whole picture!

[thfeu58]

On the Patch1.2 list(the German list is excused) (http://ubisoft-de.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ubisoft_de.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13405) the following point was added at the end:

In addition to the abovementioned points it was inserted some improvements:

* now ships SH4 can be imported (useful for Modder).

This is an interesting point, because with it it should be also possible to import SH4, for SH3 modified ships, to SH5 about the detour.

Besides, this allows the end that with the patch a tool becomes available with which GR2 files can be packed, and vice versa it should also grab with it possibly his them from.

[urfisch]

I agree Mate.

I'll state it here for the first time.
I have a working viewer/exporter in a very rough form.
It's based on code releases all over the 'Net.
Plus some work of my own.
Nothing has been used from non-released source code!
Nothing I've coded uses illegal source code.

It's all done in C++ so is very compact and fast.
There are still Gremlins to sort out in the code.
So I call it Gremlin.

Gremlin is designed to be a stand alone viewer/exporter
that allows on the fly texture changes while in the viewer.

Gremlin is also intended to use plug-ins down the road.
Gremlin will not do imports to GR2 files. (Yet!)
Gremlin is not supported by Ubi nor RAD GAmes.
Gremlin is NOT available for download until I hear from the Devs
and RAD Games.

So Gremlin is just a figment of my imagination at this point.
:03:

sounds great!

:yeah:

its a fact, that we need a working gr2 exporter/importer to fulfill our dreams with this game! and if ubi does not give it to us, we need to help ourself.

[TheBeast]

The mind need not boggle.
Open your minds and see the whole picture!
I am trailing in last place when it comes to 3D Modeling knowlege. All the hoops you guys are jumping through to export/import amases me.
As posted earlier, $12,000.00 US to get the editor to do it the simple way is WAY to much cost to MOD a game. Hell, I have a hard time justifying the cost of the game in the first place let alone buying all the tools needed to make the game work like it should have out of box in the first place.
My hat is off to all of you and I kneel before your combined knowlege base.:salute: Looking forward, I hope to see what you guys produce when the editor issue's are resolved.

[gimpy117]

Extracted from Granny Viewer through 3D PrintScreen (for D3D & OGL) into 3Dxml:



http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1641/3dpsgoblin.jpg
is that autocad??

[urfisch]

hey private...

whats the deal? any news?

[Madox58]

The viewer is working and basic exporting works at this time.
I've yet to finish the code to extract all the meshs.
I want it to be able to export only what you want exported.
So if you don't want the DMG or Reflection objects exported
you can de-select them in a list.

It will export everything in the proper place also when it's finished.
I've been searching every bit of source code I can find.
Some is in Programming Languages I'm not good with.
So there's alot of studying and re-codeing involved.

It's going to take awhile but it is getting somewhere.

Once I finish the Viewer I'll post screenshots.
It's based on some pretty slick Code.
I'm a Mouse freak and the interface will prove that.
:haha:

[Madox58]

is that autocad??

No.
That's 3D Print Screen.
http://www.3ds.com/products/3dvia/3d-xml/3dvia-printscreen/
It does a pretty good job of captureing the Granny Viewer stuff.
By grabbing the 3D Max importer you can work with the models
then in 3D Max.
Not sure if there's importers for other Modeling software.
I didn't really look for anything I don't use.

There's a few things that annoy me about it.
But writeing a proper script for Max adjusts the problems quickly.
:03:

[gimpy117]

oh sorry. the cube looks exactly like the one i have in autocad 2010

[Madox58]

Oh, Sorry Mate.
:oops:
That may well be AutoCad that the image was captured from.
3D Screen Print was used to export the model.
Not sure what Anvart used to display the Model.
:88)

[Madox58]

This thread can remain but when the time is right?
I'll start a new thread on 'Gremlin'
:03:

Since Anvart made us aware of 3D Print Screen
and the importer to 3D Max.

Who has tried it and what are your results?

I find that the models are rotated off axis.
I'm working on a script for 3D Max to fix this.
Would anyone be interesed in this script?
:hmmm:

[urfisch]

i work with cinema and loved the obj files for 3d data!

[TheBeast]

OK, I am baffled!:o As I stated in earlier post, all this 3D Modeling is new to me and it may be that I just dont have the correct tools.
I have been trying to figure out how to move the Conning Tower Emblem to correct location so Radar upgrades dont cover over them and I am at a loss.:damn:
I also want to add Hull Numbers to Tower and Bow as I did for SH4 and cant even find add Material Texture and Texture Placements. This si related to not being able to move exiting Emblems.

Please Advise!
-TheBeast

[Madox58]

The 3D objects that the emblems appear on is in the
GR2 file for each Turm.

Until GR2 files can be edited they can't be moved.

One could re-build the Turms in Dat format and edit
the Crap out of things.

The patch is said to fix the issue with dats.

[Ailantd]

I find that the models are rotated off axis.
I'm working on a script for 3D Max to fix this.
Would anyone be interesed in this script?
:hmmm:

Here one.

[Madox58]

As soon as I get it done I'll post it up.
:)

[Anvart]

is that autocad??
:D
Sorry, Mate...
You see 3ds Max 2009...
You not attentively read #7...

[gimpy117]

:D
Sorry, Mate...
You see 3ds Max 2009...
You not attentively read #7...

so i heard. Autodesk makes autocad so i now know that's why the 3d views look similar

im wondering if i can open or import those files..make stuff of my own i really want to make a proper sight for the Larger U-boat flak guns...the 30mm guns had a telescopic sight if im not mistaken.

[HELLISH1]

Here one.
just dont flip the import in max, uncheck flip cordinates

[Ailantd]

just dont flip the import in max, uncheck flip cordinates

Hehe, problem is that I don´t know where to download the importer, plugin or script. Do you ?

[Madox58]

The problem with 3D print screen and the importer is the objects are not centered correctly
to the world.
They have a perspective view so all Pivot points are rotated.
And the Objects are off center to boot!
The script I'm working on places a correctly aligned object in the World,
Then adjusts the import from 3D printscreen to match,
then deletes the placer object.

I'm lazy and hate to do manual stuff over and over!
Like my Grandpappy use to tell me,
"Work smarter, not harder!"
:yeah:

[Ailantd]

The problem with 3D print screen and the importer is the objects are not centered correctly
to the world.
They have a perspective view so all Pivot points are rotated.
And the Objects are off center to boot!
The script I'm working on places a correctly aligned object in the World,
Then adjusts the import from 3D printscreen to match,
then deletes the placer object.

I'm lazy and hate to do manual stuff over and over!
Like my Grandpappy use to tell me,
"Work smarter, not harder!"
:yeah:

I will wait for your script. I´m feeling lazy too.

[Anvart]

The problem with 3D print screen and the importer is ...

More correctly (i think):
"The problem of all grabbers is ..."
...
It's not problem of grabbers... it's essence (sense) or feature of grabbers. :D
... grabber takes coordinates from the initial program...

[Madox58]

Very good correction Anvart.
:up:

The script just helps adjust things so it's easier to work with the exports.

[Madox58]

OK,
here is how to use the Granny Viewer with textures showing
to view the SH5 GR2 files.
:up:

I'll use E: as the main example but some files may be D:
You find the exact paths by looking at the GR2 files
in Granny Viewer - Material List tab.

The files are hard coded to look for the E: drive.
The Game is coded to look elsewhere of course.

Granny Viewer looks for that E: path in the GR2 files.
So we need to create that exact path.

If your DVD drive is E:?
You can burn a DVD with the path and textures.
But it's worthless for doing changes later on.

So let's change things and create a Virtual E: drive.

IF your DVD drive is E:
Here's how you change the drive letter:

(If there are programs looking for the DVD as E: they may get confused!)

Right-click My Computer,
and then click Manage.
Under Computer Management,
click Disk Management.
In the right pane, you'll see your drives listed.
CD-ROM drives are listed at the bottom of the pane.
Right-click the drive or device you want to change,
and then click Change Drive Letter and Paths.
Click Change,
click Assign the following drive letter,
click the drive letter you want to assign,
and then click OK.


Now create a Virtual E: drive

You'll need some software.
But it's free and we like that!
http://www.magiciso.com/tutorials/miso-magicdisc-overview.htm

Useing nearly any Burning software?
create an ISO of all the textures with the paths
then mount it with the software.

Then open Granny Viewer and open the GR2 file of choice.

If you did it all right?
You now have a textured view!
:rock:

I'll be glad to assist you if needed.

[conus00]

Oh, I didn't know the paths were hardcoded.
No wonder that I couldn't find a way hoe to change them in Granny.

Thanks!

[Madox58]

Right.
That's how Granny files work.
If it's hard Coded in the GR2 file?
Granny Viewer will look for that path.

As I said,
The SH5 Game knows when that path is called,
where to look in Game.

What we need to do is follow the exact path as coded in the GR2 files.
We do that by createing a path that Granny Viewer will find.

My way is not the only way I'm sure.
You could have an external drive named E: that will work.

My externals are named F: and D:
My DVD is named E:
My Virtual Drive is Z:

But I have a short cut to the Disk Management funtion.
So I can change things on the fly.

I'd change everything once, but there are to many things
installed at this time to make it easy.

It would require a total re-install and I'm not ready to do that yet.

[Anvart]

...
SH5 Game knows when that path is called,
where to look in Game...
For this, grannyloader (.dll) exists... :haha: ... i'm almost the poet...
...
Are you able to change paths to files of textures in GR2-files? :06:

[Madox58]

Here's a Snapshot of my Virtual Drive
Note the path in green.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Granny_Paths.jpg

By opening the GR2 files with Granny we can find the different paths for each file.

Create that path as I did above and copy the needed textures to it.
It's just like makeing mods ready for JSGME.
Create a folder, name it, create a folder in that folder, name it, etc, etc.
Then copy the needed files to the final folder.


You don't want a complete copy of SH5 in this setup.
:03:

Um kay?

[Madox58]

For this, grannyloader (.dll) exists... :haha: ... i'm almost the poet...
...
Are you able to change paths to files of textures in GR2-files? :06:


To tell the truth Mr. Poet
:DL

I've not tried on the GR2 files themselves.

Gremlin has a built in routine for selecting textures.
You can place any texture you like on the meshes
while viewing them.
It also knows not to follow exact paths as coded into the GR2 files.
So it looks in the proper places right off the bat.

[Anvart]

How you think, is my patience boundless?
Where and when? :D ... lol

[Madox58]

How you think, is my patience boundless?
Where and when? :D ... lol


I'm a slow programmer.
:)
20 years ago I'd have been done by now.
But I was single then with no dogs, cats, or Home care to worry about.
And the Wife gets a bit upset if I don't pay her enuff attention.
:doh:

So to steal a phrase?
It will be ready when it's ready.
:rock:

[Jimbuna]

It will be ready when it's ready.


The old uns are still the best :DL

[Madox58]

..
Are you able to change paths to files of textures in GR2-files? :06:


I tried changeing them but got a CRC error message.
Changeing from E: to D: cause it.
I did it in hex useing the open pathes in the GR2 files.
Now,
Since E and D are different?
(In hex values and such)
I'd say adjusting the CRC values would work.
I'm just to lazy to test much further tonite.
:haha:

I never expected to do it all anyways.
:shifty:

[Anvart]

...
It will be ready when it's ready.
:rock:
Jeff,
i understand all well...
It was joke... simple joke only... may be not ridiculous for you... sorry...

P.S. ... and i have wife, daughter, cat and so on, too...
... in other words - the same problems. :haha:
But unlike you i have huge laziness too to do something...
I tried changeing them but got a CRC error message.
Changeing from E: to D: cause it.
I did it in hex useing the open pathes in the GR2 files.
Now,
Since E and D are different?
(In hex values and such)
I'd say adjusting the CRC values would work.
I'm just to lazy to test much further tonite.
:haha:

I never expected to do it all anyways.
:shifty:
Thanks for info, my friend!

[Madox58]

Never worry about me understanding you Mate.
:)

I also ment it as a joke.
:up:

On related subjects.
I did get the paths to textures changed in the GR2 files.
:03:

Also noticed that QuARK (Quake army knife),
a free tool by the way,
has started trying to open GR2 files.

Sadly,
QuARK uses an older version of grnreader and some
python scripts in this attempt.
And there seems to be no documentaion on what games they
hoped to support with this feature.

My tests were total failures.
It would not open any of the numerous GR2 files I have
from many different games.
So it's a waste for SH5 at this time.

But at lest there's another attempt going on.
They are not low key and have been aroung for a very long time.
So if Rad was going to step in?
I'd say they would take the first hits.

It is however a nice tool for many other Games.
So it may be worth a look to many.
It also is expandable by writeing plug-ins
in Python.
That could be a handy feature!
:hmmm:
In my old days of Modding Quake?
This was one of my tools.
Nice to see how far it's come.
So I'll keep it around for awhile.

[Anvart]

Thanks.
Goodluck. :up:

[TheBeast]

I was playing with Goblin Editor and could not use the drop down menu's so I traced down what the problem was.
There is a Service running named Themes. After I stop this service, the Goblin Editor drop down menu's work fine now.:rock:
The Themes service is not required by the OS but it does make the OS GUI look better.

[Madox58]

What OS are you running?
Vista, Windows 7?

[TheBeast]

What OS are you running?
Vista, Windows 7?
I am running Vista Home Premium(32)
3Gig Ram
Intel CPU (Q9450)
Intel Motherboard (Sound & NIC onboard)
512Gig HD (2x512G Striped Array)
NVidia 9800 GTX2

[Madox58]

Yes,
the Theme thing could also be on XP if you use Themes.
I never have so never caught this.

Good spotting!
:up:

[Madox58]

For some interesting granny source code,
search for Create Dynamics.

This is released source code that includes granny.h and such.
It dates back to 2007 but is still full of information.
:03:

[Anvart]

You about Ratcliff's The CreateDynamics toolkit ?

[Madox58]

Yes.
That's it.
:03:
Also of mention is the fact that AO3 modders
are now in possession of the Granny SDK.

I'm keeping a close eye on that forum as they may be the
unwitting Cannon Fodder none of us wish to become.

I also enjoy going through the website Casey Muratori has out there.
:)

[urfisch]

so any progress on decoding the granny files? seems, as if the import function for sh4 data is not implemented in the patch.

:stare:

[bigboywooly]

seems, as if the import function for sh4 data is not implemented in the patch.

:stare:

Hope you are wrong or will drive many away
Lack of merchants is a killer

[thfeu58]

seems, as if the import function for sh4 data is not implemented in the patch.


I observe this, should be this in such a way... oh well, now there comes the summer, we wait for the autumn!

[Anvart]

Yes.
That's it.
:03:
Also of mention is the fact that AO3 modders
are now in possession of the Granny SDK.

I'm keeping a close eye on that forum as they may be the
unwitting Cannon Fodder none of us wish to become.

I also enjoy going through the website Casey Muratori has out there.
:)
I think, it's trimmed old version...
i saw three links in internet... :haha:

[Anvart]

Hope you are wrong or will drive many away
Lack of merchants is a killer
Item about importing of SH4 ships is absent in Buka's (russian) 1.2 version.

[TheBeast]

Item about importing of SH4 ships is absent in Buka's (russian) 1.2 version.

No provissions for importing SH3/SH4 ships in English Patch v1.2:wah:

[Madox58]

You can import from reports I have.
Not sure of what is required yet.
Nor what adaptations need done.

From Official sources?
If you have the Granny SDK?
Delete it!

It's considered a major NO NO to have it!
That is directly from RAD Game sources.

No warnings issued yet from RAD but you can bet
it will happen.

Now if I could just hit the Lottery!
:haha:

[Anvart]

...
If you have the Granny SDK? (added: and even if you have only some elements of ...)
Delete it!
...
Now if I could just hit the Lottery!
:haha:
You have written: "... AO3 modders are now in possession of the Granny SDK. ..."
I have answered: "I think, ... it's trimmed old version ...".
And no more...

[elanaiba]

the import function for sh4 data is not implemented in the patch.
:stare:

With patch 1.2 dat files should now load textures properly. The problem they have is related to reflections.

[AOTD_MadMax]

With patch 1.2 dat files should now load textures properly. The problem they have is related to reflections.


The textures are to bright and you are right, there are no waterreflections.
The next problem i got with the wakes.
Its not working like converting ships from SH3 to SH4.
Editing the Val-File from SH5 ships with the ID´s from SH4 ships will not work.

Regards

Maddy

[bigboywooly]

With patch 1.2 dat files should now load textures properly. The problem they have is related to reflections.

Pity about the damage model
Torps hit but DG shells go right thru :roll:

[Madox58]

For the type 14,
I used an SH5 Val with changed ID's
that worked fine.
Small adjustments were needed to get the wakes placed right but that's it.

The zones stuff will need adjusted as I did for the 14
But I adjusted some files for S3D to edit the zones.
Those files were posted here at SubSim.
(Goblin is to much pain for zone work to me.)

[haegemon]

Nowdays a simulator without the ability to add new content is worthless. This granny format is a pain in the *** . Still enough bugs and unfinished pieces to think this game wouldn't have to pass a quality test yet.

[Madox58]

There are work arounds to the GR2 format.
Most seem scared of this new release.
With the new patch?
GR2 files are avoided.
And GR2 files can be altered if one is willing to Hex them.
Everyone wants an easy way to do things.
Sometimes that just don't happen.
S3D was the best attempt at removeing Hex Guys from Modding.
(Not aimed at us so don't take it that way skwasjer!)
Hex editing will now blaze the trail again.
What we learn?
It will be used to make new tools!
It could be updates to S3D, new conversion Tools, or better/faster ways to do things.

A true Modder never lets new formats stop them!
They will study the files and find a way!
It won't be tomorrow but it will be done!
You can take that to the freaking Bank!

[skwasjer]

I didn't take it like that ;)

I am not anti hex editor, I am anti 'use hex editors for every day use'. Hence S3D. I am not writing my e-mails with a hex editor either, perhaps you do? :D

:woot:

[Madox58]

No Mate I don't.
:haha:
And I do agree Hex, as an everyday tool is not for everyone.
S3D is The Tool!
And I'll use my Hex abilities to Improve it for SH5 use.
If and when you release an update?
Great!
I'll help, and continue what I'm doing in the mean time.
If it helps you and you use what I do?
Not a problem!
It's not about you or me.
It's about what we can do for others.
It's about time to kick the Pig!
I'm ready to punt the squealer!
:haha:

[Anvart]

Hi, my friend.
... any successes in experiments..?
i saw your posts at the forum, known to you... ;)

[Madox58]

Many successes my Friend.
:03:

Exports are nearly done useing code from other sources.
Viewing is done in OpenGL and has no World center problem as exporting from Granny Viewer does.

I'm still working on the UI at this point.
Several things in real life are slowing me.
I lost 3 very good friends and my mind is just not ready to
work on this at this time.
:nope:

So I do some 3D work as that does not involve as much brain power.
And I watch videos of jumping out of Aircraft as one of my Friends was a
ParaTrooper like me.

So I'm in a very bad funk just now.

[Anvart]

Hi, my far Friend.
I very much sympathize (on ru - сочувствую тебе) you.
Accept my condolences.

Goodluck,
Alex

[thfeu58]

Hello privateer,

accept please my deep sympathy and my condolences greetings.

thfeu58

[Madox58]

Thanks Guys.
It does mean alot to me.
They were each very close Friends in different ways.
I'll sorely miss them all.
:nope:

[Mithrandir]

Hi privateer,
please, accept also my condolences.

with sympathy,
Mith

[McBeck]

Im so sorry to hear that privateer

[Madox58]

Again,
Thanks Guys.

I did spend sometime today looking at the CRC problem when renaming
things by hex editing.
This is in reference to the torp animations problem when an AI Sub is near.

Nothing to say at this point about that,
but I did get back to work on several things.
:yep:

I changed some code on the Normals Maker I'm working on.
It's much closer to what I'm after, but I still need to adjust a few things.

It requires no Image software to create Normals dds files.
So it's a nice slick piece of software.

[reaper7]

Sorry to hear about your friends.
My deepest sympathies go out to you and there families.

[Madox58]

Thanks reaper7,

I do also work behind the scene (so to speak)
to try to get answers or something going that will help all of us.

Questions to any contacts I can think of in all kinds of areas.

It may never come to anything.
But if you don't try every approach?
You've not tried hard enuff.

[deathwest]

That's not the case!
Granny is a highly modifiable system.
Even haveing the base granny.h file from RAD is nearly useless IF the Devs
did a custom build.
.

Sorry to hear of your loss. :(

Long time lurker first time poster.:ping:

If Granny 3D by Rad is the problem why dont we take up a colletion
and buy the program. I would gladly put up $100 or more, then we
only need 124 more ppl to get you the tools you need.

[7thSeal]

Thanks reaper7,

I do also work behind the scene (so to speak)
to try to get answers or something going that will help all of us.



Trust,
but that answer will rely solely on you. :)

Pm me at anytime if you want to go deeper. :yep:

[Madox58]

A collection idea is nice.
Many site do things like this.
But $12,500 is ALOT of money!
Who would handle this type fund that all would trust?

And how would the usage of this be worked with RAD Games?
Do we need an official Group that can use the software?
Who selects the members?

It's a Spiders web of questions!

Would you donate $100.00 if you could never use the software?
But knew that others would use it for the improvement of SH5?
And what of those that want access to this because they donated?
And say we somehow got a legal version.
What if it is leaked?
How would we trace the leak?
UBI has no special build that I see.
It's a right out of the box version.
Of course, with a full license,
it could be hard coded to display a special build number.
But again, if leaked?
How to we trace this?

Say we had obtained a full License for a limited Team.
Could we get Ubi to do a special patch that demands a
special build of Granny?

We get this special build in addition to a Legal License.
We are only part way there.

Modders are known to share things.
We still face the very real problem of the wrong person getting
thier grubby hands on this.

And then we are all screwed!
$12,500 down the drain!

[Madox58]

Trust,
but that answer will rely solely on you. :)

Pm me at anytime if you want to go deeper. :yep:


Clearify your statement.
A PM was sent.

[deathwest]

[QUOTE=privateer;1406335]
Would you donate $100.00 if you could never use the software?
But knew that others would use it for the improvement of SH5?
And what of those that want access to this because they donated?
And say we somehow got a legal version.
What if it is leaked?
How would we trace the leak? [QUOTE]

Who handles the Donation for this site?
Usage could be a single install
or a network install with only one chair allowed on at a time ,
like company’s do for Autodesk software.
So you only buy one copy but many can use it form a net work.
Yes I would give money for software I cant use, I already did to Ubi twice. :oops:
I could give more but thought $100 was a nice place to start.:)
Leaks can be control be limiting the use to a few trusted members.
But it all comes down to trust.
I know none of you here but there are ppl here I would trust to make mods all would enjoy.

So if its Granny 3D you need lets work on getting it for you.:yeah:
How many members does Subsim have?

[Madox58]

I did send an information request to RAD Sales.
I'd say it will be Tuesday at the earliest before I get a reply.

Here is the message I sent:

************************************************** *
Greetings,



I and many others do Mods for the Silent Hunter series of Games by UbiSoft.
As you well know, Silent Hunter 5 now uses the Granny System.
We, as a group are looking at starting a fund to buy a Granny License.
If this becomes a reality, could you give me a guideline as to how we could use this.
Do we need to have an established group that is Licensed with a list of approved members?
Any help on guidence you could give me would be of great service.

************************************************** **


We'll see what happens.

[Ailantd]

It seems to me that also ubi has something to say here. As Ubi usually say nothing about mods, maby if we start to make so powerfull mods, they can see it like a problem as we could be competence for future proyects they could release based in SH5. maby we should also aks Ubi about that before purchase any granny license.

[kylania]

they can see it like a problem as we could be competence for future projects they could release based in SH5. maby we should also aks Ubi about that before purchase any granny license.

Seeing as Ubisoft hasn't said anything at all since the game came out, and by all observations has entirely abandoned the Silent Hunter series (I'm still waiting for anyone from Ubisoft to refute that...) we could probably finish the game and they wouldn't even notice. :O:

[Madox58]

Ubi has been asked in several ways.
We get no real answer.
If we could own and use Granny to do mods for SH5?
I doubt Ubi would care!
They would not be paying $12,500 or so,
and it would only drive sales!

Ubi wins by just staying silent.
Which is right up thier alley.

We, as ardent Silent Hunter supporters and legal owners,
have been raped in a way that should paint a scarlet letter on foreheads!

We are looking for a legal and honorable way to continue what we do.
Should Ubi say no at this point?
They stand to loose WAY more money.

And money is what drives them!
Users can make or destroy a Company.

And right now?
The feeling in America is not to good for foriegn companies!
BP is the prime example.
I use to stop at one everyday for coffee and gas.
I no longer go there.
I go out of my way now.
I also stopped further orders of any Ubi Games.
And I know many just local people that have done the same.

[Ailantd]

Seeing as Ubisoft hasn't said anything at all since the game came out, and by all observations has entirely abandoned the Silent Hunter series (I'm still waiting for anyone from Ubisoft to refute that...) we could probably finish the game and they wouldn't even notice. :O:

Even in that case. For example Ms closed the FS series but not let developers continue it in their own as they ask. A company can discontinue a game series but not to renunce to possible profits from the franchise. I hope you are right, but I don´t see Ubi let us make a really good game from SH5 and maby covering all possible expansions they could do in the future, even it they dont plan to do it and don't say nothing. Again hope you are right XD

[Madox58]

After years,
Ubi released a fix for StarForce.
It was the Reloaded crack!
Then they actually released non-StarForce DVD's!
Those DVD's and the files, pre-date StarForce stuff!

To actually give Ubi any credit for being honest?
That's probably the biggest joke we have all lived with for what?
Better then 5 years?
They laughed all the way to the bank my friend!
And they used all of us in the meantime!

They also used the Devs just as they used us!
We are all just mere players.

I lost my devotion to Ubi with SH5.
Not my devotion to the Devs, mind you.
I still believe they intended much more.
But I still reserve the right to question them.

A perfect World would see me hitting the Lottery,
Hireing the Romanian Devs and many Modders,
and createing the Utimate SubSim!

In the meantime?
I don't give up but look for answers!
Whatever that takes?
I still look!

[haegemon]

This community is so active it don't needs the game , if it only could have a game engine under GNU licence to upload it with data would be no complains anymore, never. Sadly few people is abble to work in an engine and it's a hard task. I only know it from a flight simulator (FlightGear) community. So by now Ubi soft is the best we can get.

[deathwest]

So we wait and see what Granny has to say.
Come on Grannnnyy.:yeah:

[Madox58]

We wait and see what RAD has to say after they contact Ubi I'd think.
I've looked at many Games useing Granny.
Most have a custom build process that will not allow
a Stock build of Granny to work in those Games.
I see nothing of the sort in SH5.
It's a wide open, bone stock from RAD, implementation,
as far as what I can see.
That could cause problems.

[Madox58]

The Official responce from RAD Games.
************************************
Hi, Jeff, this is Jeff from RAD!

We'd probably wouldn't license a group of people, since there are no legal protections or anything (I mean, who would even sign the contract? <grin>). So, if you wanted to do this, you'd have to start an official company before we could start talking about a license

In any case, though, I believe Ubisoft used a customized version of Granny in Silent Hunter, so I don't think a Granny license would help - that, is you'd still need a bunch of custom code from Ubisoft.

Really, the right way for this to happen is for Ubisoft to get a source license for our exporter, and then modify it to write out Silent Hunter data files specifically...

Thanks,

->Jeff
RAD Game Tools

************************************************** **


So the ball is in Ubi's court?
Not really if you look at the seeming facts.
They have no source License from this information.
And I'd doubt they would buy one.
So that option is out.
I do doubt that statement of a customized version.
I know better then that!
A Company, not a Group, with someone to sign a deal?
Can be done.

It comes down to this.
Who owns a Company that all of us trust?
Or do we start a new Company?
Who selects the people that have access to the Software?
Can we really raise the money required?
$12,500 is not an amount that happens over nite!
Is this an effort that is worth even starting?
Given that SubSim did a Major work for SH2?
I'd say let's show it could be done again for SH5!

[THE_MASK]

What does Neal think about it .

[Madox58]

Until all options are baked?
I'd not bother Neal.
He see's all this.
If he had a comment he'd post.
Most likely?
He's wondering if I'm at the Flying Saucer in Houston!
:haha:

[Jimbuna]

Most likely?
He's wondering if I'm at the Flying Saucer in Houston!
:haha:

Beat me to it :rotfl2:

Bloody time zones :damn:

:03:

[Madox58]

Look familiar?
http://www.beerknurd.com/images/stores/houston_Slider01.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Look familiar?


Oh yeah....I still don't understand people eating chips/fries with a coating of melted cheese over the top whist drinking beer though :hmmm:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3583/p1000133a.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/p1000133a.jpg/)

[Madox58]

Well, It's kind of like Fish and chips with Cheese.
Except there's no fish.
(Nasty non-air breathing creatures!)

[deathwest]

I own a LLC. http://wandwelectricalservicesllc.vpweb.com/
Only have 3 ppl that work for me and I still work for another
company as a Surveyor so my time is vary limited.

You are welcome to use this LLC if needed.

So the ball is in Ubi's court? is there any hope?

[TheBeast]

Should we take a SubSim.com Tally Vote to find out how much interest there is?
I'm in for $100.00 if it looks like we can pull this off.
:har:Come on!!! Come on!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya5-EOTn6w8):rotfl2:

[deathwest]

Ill put my money where my mouth is, I am in for $100 also.:salute:

[haegemon]

I don't think that have to buy a licence is a solution. It's Ubi who's responsible for this granny mess and a bugged product. It's a costumer issue.

Plus they know a sim relies on the ability for the player community to expand the content.

[Barso]

I am not a modder but count me in.
Anything to help the people that will make this game great.

[kylania]

Plus they know a sim relies on the ability for the player community to expand the content.

They have also seen that gaming communities will pay $15 for 5 maps, three of which they already have. DLC has infested games and turned gaming companies from making selling complete products to selling pieces of products, constantly.

I wouldn't doubt that Ubisoft deliberately shipped with almost no ships and made importing ships extremely difficult so that they could sell us more ships via DLC. But then they just abandoned the game. :x

[Madox58]

More Units, both Air and Sea, are being worked on at this moment.
I've also been teaching those who want to know how it's done so that more people can start importing.
The more that can do the work?
The faster we get new Units!
JU-88 has stepped up from just modeling to actually doing the importing himself.
Other can do this also.

[TheBeast]

I like SH5 and feel that it has the potential of being the best SubSim ever but it is going to take a lot of work by the modding community.

Adding to the current Air and Sea units is part of what needs to be done. The entire Campaing Layer needs a rewrite as well. Most of the time current Air Units do not engage me, even after I shoot and damage them. Current Sea units don't have a clue where I am and randomly pick some place to start dropping depth charges, even when they are right on top of me and I am moving Ahaead Standard. If they do hear me I can just dive to 50 meters Zig-Zag and lose them.
We need a Major MOD like TMC, RSRD, FoTRS, OM to make the game challenging enough to call it a SIM. The only MOD'r from the ones mentioned above starting to do anything along these lines is AoTD_MadMax (FoTRS). The others feel it will be a waste of time beause of the hard coded core issue's with the game engine they don't see being fixed any time soon.
Then there are the little things like the Recognition Manual for example, not listing Sea Units currently in stock game so where do I get Mast Height and Shep Lengths to determine Range and Speed. If I play arcade style it make no difference but if I want to disable auto targeting completely it makes it hard to determine range to target without cheating. And yes, I consider using the ruler on the map, cheating. I know there are other, more time consuming methods to determine range and speed.
Where the ship icon is displayed on the map should by what you as the Kapitan have set the range to be. Bearing is a given, determined from Sonar and Periscope +-1 or 2 degree depending on range.

I am ranting... Sorry, I could go on and end up writing a novel about things you all most liekly already know. So I will stop.

[thfeu58]

They have also seen that gaming communities will pay $15 for 5 maps, three of which they already have. DLC has infested games and turned gaming companies from making selling complete products to selling pieces of products, constantly.

I wouldn't doubt that Ubisoft deliberately shipped with almost no ships and made importing ships extremely difficult so that they could sell us more ships via DLC. But then they just abandoned the game. :x

I do not think that it comes in addition.

For us the whole one is a learning process.
Day by day a little further.
As privateer writes, one will succeed in integrating new unities.
A study of the Campaign files allows the end that the campaign can be continued till 1945.

But it does not go overnight, this lasts his time.

[deathwest]

They have also seen that gaming communities will pay $15 for 5 maps, three of which they already have. DLC has infested games and turned gaming companies from making selling complete products to selling pieces of products, constantly.

I wouldn't doubt that Ubisoft deliberately shipped with almost no ships and made importing ships extremely difficult so that they could sell us more ships via DLC. But then they just abandoned the game. :x

I believe your right why else ship the game with so few Ships.
Or is History there logic? How many different ships did move with the convoys?

[Madox58]

As I said, there are many people working on things.
One of JU's Aircraft for example.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/SH5%20Stuff/JUs_B25.jpg

Imported into a dat already.
BBW has some major works in the Campaign area but needs Units or it's wasted.
There's other works out there in many areas.

[thfeu58]

This makes confident.
Great.
Splendidly! :yeah:

[TheBeast]

As I said, there are many people working on things.
One of JU's Aircraft for example.
Imported into a dat already.
BBW has some major works in the Campaign area but needs Units or it's wasted.
There's other works out there in many areas.

It is good to hear this. I am just sad that many of the major modders from previous Silent Hunter releases are not willing to try SH5 when their talent and expertise are really needed.

[Madox58]

If you start building it?
They will come.
:up:

[THE_MASK]

If you start building it?
They will come.
:up:Oh yeah , when new units and a campaign rewrite and war extention becomes available (if) then that will attract lots of new people .

[Madox58]

The Type 14 in Game.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14c.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14h.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14i.jpg

That's an AI Sub that Dives added by Modders.
It is all being built.
Just not tommorrow!
:88)

[haegemon]

Yes, people works are in progress. But modeling takes long.


Reconize this one? :salute:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7334/leutch.jpg

[TheBeast]

bump... You must be nearing completion because I haven't heard much from you lately...:06:

The Type 14 in Game.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14c.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14h.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/type14i.jpg

That's an AI Sub that Dives added by Modders.
It is all being built.
Just not tommorrow!
:88)

[Madox58]

bump... You must be nearing completion because I haven't heard much from you lately...:06:


I'm further along with it, Yes.
But I'm also splitting time working on Tools for others to use,
and helping teach others how to do things.
Adjustments to S3D files,
A Ship Converter that will do most of the dirty work,
How-to threads,
and anything else that comes up.

Plus I still work 9 to 10 hours each day at my real job.
So things move slower then I really like.
But I can only do so much.

I don't hide anything.
You can watch the Marble Cake forum if you want.
You'll see me post there more then here for now.

[urfisch]

i appreciate your work very much, so take your time!!! although i admit, i cant wait to see more progress...

;)

[Madox58]

It would go much faster if I knew abit more programming with Delphi.

I know where the problem I have is.
Now I have to learn more to adjust more components.
:doh:

I missed the chance to have Ref teach me as much as I wanted to learn.
:nope:

[TheDarkWraith]

It would go much faster if I knew abit more programming with Delphi.

I know where the problem I have is.
Now I have to learn more to adjust more components.
:doh:

I missed the chance to have Ref teach me as much as I wanted to learn.
:nope:

why are you using Delphi? Any particular reason? Why not C#?

[Madox58]

It's what the Source I have was written in.
I debated on converting to C++ but there's a ton of components
used that would require even more work.
Besides, I enjoy learning new languages.

[thfeu58]

Besides, I enjoy learning new languages.

Yes, I also. :yeah:

Greetings

[Anvart]

It would go much faster if I knew abit more programming with Delphi.
...

why are you using Delphi? Any particular reason? Why not C#?

Pascal..? :timeout:
... or at last C++ Builder 2010... :haha:

[Madox58]

Pascal..? :timeout:
... or at last C++ Builder 2010... :haha:


I have several programs written in C++ for SH5 stuff in the works.
The source I have from Ref is in Delphi.
It's a fantastic job he did and I'd like to continue his work.
It only needs adjusted in some areas so why start from scratch?
Besides, I really want to learn more in the Delphi Environment.
JScones did Commander and JSGME in Delphi.
No one complains about those programs being written in Delphi.
That's good enuff for me.
:up:

[Anvart]

I have several programs written in C++ for SH5 stuff in the works.
The source I have from Ref is in Delphi.
It's a fantastic job he did and I'd like to continue his work.
...

:hmm2:
You do not wish to convert ... it's your business (what to do...)...
You have made wrapper for granny2.dll..?

[Madox58]

:hmm2:
You have made wrapper for granny2.dll..?



I've done some neat stuff by modifing source released by others, yes.
It's like a Granny Viewer with export abilities at this point.
(It's all in C++ by the way)
I've still got some other areas to work on before I show what it can do.

Then we'll see what RAD has to say.
They can demand a stop.
At that point?
What good is the program?

[Anvart]

You have written you "play" with Delphi...
and for calling of C++ functions from *.dll you should write "wrapper", i think...

[urfisch]

very interesting topic. please keep us up to date!

:yeah:

[Targor Avelany]

very interesting topic, but it seems to be dead. Not to rais zombies, but did the modders found better way of dealing with gr2 files or has something else changed?

[urfisch]

the modder is no longer at subsim. so the project is on hold, as long as no one else deals with it.

[Zedi]

A BIG loss for SH3, none for SH5.

[urfisch]

...no comment on that dispensable comment. but his bailout is a big loss for all players of sh3, sh4 and sh5. and also for the modders, who learned from him.

keep beeing respectful, dude.

[Budds]

Any loss of mod talent should NOT be viewed as a Good Thing, IMHO.

And especially talent that is familiar with the SH Series.
From what I see.....
A VERY high number of Imports into Sh5 have come from Sh3 and Sh4.
And how did they get there ?
With the help of modders like privateer.
SH3 stuff needed "More", and then Sh4 borrowed from Sh3, and now Sh5 attempts to borrow from both 3 and 4.

To dis someone that has been there done that....
Well its just Poor Form..... IMHO.
While we might not always agree....... respect where it is due is just polite.
Even if one party has not extended the same courtesy, we should rise above.... and lead by example.

While I appreciate the work being done on imports now... the "Hard Way", I cant help but think how much better it would be with the Proper tools.
What the Hell........
Re-invent the wheel if we must...... but its still a damn shame !

All just MHO..............
:(