[WIP] Airborne Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD)

[keltos01]

I think I read somewhere that Lurker made it for the PBY

anyone worked with this yet ?

like we could have MAD equipped airplanes maybe drop MK24 FIDOs ?

keltos

[Zel]

Perhaps a visual sensor with MinElevation about 170, MaxElevation 180, and MinHeight= -50?

But then he wouldn't be able to use his normal visual sensor. Maybe radar would do.

[peabody]

If you want MK24s you may need to use Zel's ideas on that too, because my idea worked once and don't know why and now it does not work at all.

Peabody

[tater]

You could make it an active sonar, but with no ping. Have the node X meters below the plane. Fly the planes at X-1m.

[keltos01]

Is this a die marker or what? :)

You probably know this already, but I'll post it anyway. MAD related:

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-48.html

Q. Describe by diagram the employment of MAD planes in convoy coverage?

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/img/plate_48-1.jpg

Q. What was the procedure when your MAD discovered a submarine?

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/img/plate_48-2.jpg



The Japanese Navy first employed an Airborne Magnetic Detecting instrument in antisubmarine warfare during the middle of 1944. The instrument had an effective range of 150 meters under average conditions and 250 meters under ideal conditions. The best height for an aircraft employing MAD was considered to be 10 to 50 meters depending on pilot's skill. Aircraft equipped with MAD were employed principally to sweep ahead of convoys or to exploit a submarine contact made by other means. It was planned to use MAD equipped aircraft to sweep heavily travelled convoy routes, but lack of aircraft and equipment prevented this.


Q. Where have you had operational experience with the Magnetic Detector used in aircraft?
A. In November 1944, we began to employ our MAD between FORMOSA and the PHILIPPINES and at the beginning of 1945 we began to use it between JAPAN and SINGAPORE. The very first experience with the MAD was in March 1944. My experience began in November 1944 with the MAD. We called the instrument JIKITANCHIKI (Magnetic Detector). From November 1944 until March 1945, I was at the headquarters of the First Escort Fleet Air Squadron at TAKAO.

Q. What was the range of detection from these heights?
A. Under average conditions trained personnel could detect submarines at the depth of 150 meters from a plane flying from 10 to 50 meters above the surface. The radius range of detection in other direction was approximately 150 meters. However, experienced pilots with equipment in excellent condition and good operating personnel could detect a submarine at a maximum depth of 250 meters.

Q. Was this equipment used for automatic release of depth charges?
A. Just the markers were. The bombs were not.

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-48.html

the smoke was actually a shot down pilot..


but from what I read of the interview they did mark the spot with smoke too.

keltos

[tater]

You could make a "DC" that does nothing but splash on impact with the water, and give the planes a lot of them so they'll hang around until escorts can move in.

[keltos01]

You could make a "DC" that does nothing but splash on impact with the water, and give the planes a lot of them so they'll hang around until escorts can move in.

is it possible to add the red smoke effect to that depth charge ?

detect sub, drop smoke marker !

how would the AI know that it has to send ships there ?


keltos

[tater]

is it possible to add the red smoke effect to that depth charge ?

detect sub, drop smoke marker !

how would the AI know that it has to send ships there ?


Presumably you might be able to add smoke.

The AI already knows the sub is there. If one unit spots a sub, it tells all the others already.

It will only work if there is a "real" ASW asset within render range. So if the MAD unit works in conjunction with a naval or convoy unit, their detection should be passed on, and the escorts race in. The smoke would just be eye candy (player should be under water anyway, so they won't see it :) )

[keltos01]

do you know where to start to make the MAD sensor ?

I can clone a plane but that"s about it..


keltos

[tater]

Yeah, clone a sensor (I'd make a new dat for it). Then you can always change what it is and see how it works.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121227

I did some messing around with a MAD, too, though not air-based...

[Madox58]

Yes you could create a smoke marker.
I had some started for the K-Ship awhile back.
Just add a water interaction controller to what ever is dropped.
That calls a partical effect you can adjust to your likeing.
I had a Dye marker also.
Here's a shot of the Dye Marker.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Dye_marker.jpg

[keltos01]

the IJN used markers, so I guess it was dye. can you tell me how to make one ?

also :

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2658/madl.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/madl.jpg/)

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6771/mad2v.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/mad2v.jpg/)

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8919/mad3k.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/mad3k.jpg/)

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/ (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/)

E-14 Japanese Magnetic Airborne Detector (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200B-0504-0540%20Report%20E-14.pdf)

[Madox58]

the IJN used markers, so I guess it was dye. can you tell me how to make one ?



Sure.

I cloned a new Bomb and removed all damages it would cause.
The splash effect was changed to point to a cloned oil slick effect
that was adjusted to get the greenish yellow.

I did it all by Hex as S3D was not around at the time.
S3D will make it a much, MUCH easier job!
:up:

For a smoke marker do the same thing but make the splash
call a cloned smoke effect adjusted to taste.

I also had a Sonor bouy at one time.
Again a cloned bomb that looked like a small parachute
that spawned a small floating bouy when it hit the water.
It didn't actually do anything but it looked cool as all get out.

[Bubblehead1980]

Man this excites me.If IJN planes in Sh 4 esp TMO had MAD plus ability to drop depth charges that could reach you when you are deep since you were detected deep, plus a smoke marker and other units could come in, man what combo that would be.

[keltos01]

Man this excites me.If IJN planes in Sh 4 esp TMO had MAD plus ability to drop depth charges that could reach you when you are deep since you were detected deep, plus a smoke marker and other units could come in, man what combo that would be.

should we tell Ducimus ? ;)

:har:

[keltos01]

basing sensor on OM 720 MAD sensor thanks to Lurker_lhb


The instrument had an effective range of 150 meters under average conditions and 250 meters under ideal conditions. The best height for an aircraft employing MAD was considered to be 10 to 50 meters depending on pilot's skill


2 set should be done : one US and one IJN following the spec here above but how do you set how deep the sensor sees ?

keltos

[keltos01]

Magnetic anomaly detectors employed to detect submarines during World War II harnessed the fluxgate magnetometer, an inexpensive and easy to use technology developed in the 1930s by Victor Vacquier of Gulf Oil for finding ore deposits.[2][3] MAD gear was used by both Japanese and U.S. anti-submarine forces, either towed by ship or mounted in aircraft to detect shallow submerged enemy submarines. The Japanese called the technology jikitanchiki(磁気探知機, "Magnetic Detector"). After the war, the U.S. Navy continued to develop MAD gear as a parallel development with sonar detection technologies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector

keltos

[Bubblehead1980]

should we tell Ducimus ? ;)

:har:

haha i think you should

[Ducimus]

how do you set how deep the sensor sees ?

keltos

That is the "fun" part, and its alot of trial and error. You really can't do this in a single mission. What i did was play a career game until i got a plane contact in just the right conditions. Saved that game. Exited SH4, made my adjustments, and then reloaded that saved game to gauge the effects. (you can edit the AI_sensors.dat file while on patrol so long as its minor variables)

This 7 page thread may be of help. It's basically the evolution of my "evil airplanes" .
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124138

[keltos01]

That is the "fun" part, and its alot of trial and error. You really can't do this in a single mission. What i did was play a career game until i got a plane contact in just the right conditions. Saved that game. Exited SH4, made my adjustments, and then reloaded that saved game to gauge the effects. (you can edit the AI_sensors.dat file while on patrol so long as its minor variables)

This 7 page thread may be of help. It's basically the evolution of my "evil airplanes" .
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124138

Thanks !

keltos

[keltos01]

how do you add the MAD visual node to a plane ?



tried the MAD PBY mission at PD : they passed over me not noticing me...

keltos

[Ducimus]

how do you add the MAD visual node to a plane ?

keltos

Smoke and mirrors!

First, lets establish one thing. Underwater detection by an airplane is nothing short of a hack. Your making the game do something it was never designed to do. So it won't be perfect. Thankfully it works well enough to be feasible.

Now then, what your going to have to do is make several new visual sensor nodes (easy with S3D), each with their own characteristics. (happy testing there, let me tell ya!). One "normal" visual sensor, and another with a negative surface factor to detect submerged, and maybe another with an even more negative surface factor.

To the best of my knowledge, an AI unit can have only one visual sensor at a time. So then, like radar or sonar improvements in a ship or plane SNS file, so you do the same with the visual sensor.

edit:
Another idea is to clone (by 3d model inheirtance) a plane, so you have two instances of the same plane. One with the super negative visual factor, the other without. Place them both in your airbase.cfg files and let them randomly spawn.

[tater]

Yep.

Ducimus, it's been a while since that thread. Do underwater sensors need to be underwater? Ie: if you put a sonar on a ship, and the node is above the water, does it work?

If underwater detectors must be under water, then make a new active sensor, and place the node for it 25m, or whatever the desired max altitude for the MAD equipped plane is. Then if the planes are flying above that alt, it won't work, and if they are low enough, the sonar is dipped. Assuming they need to be below water level.

If they work above, then you need to design the other aspects of the active sonar such that it works. Course if they only ping after they detect otherwise, that won't work.

The other issue with using a visual sensor is night time and weather.

Of course ww2 aircraft would not have operated in bad weather anyway, but MAD planes did work at night.

[Ducimus]

Yep.
Do underwater sensors need to be underwater? Ie: if you put a sonar on a ship, and the node is above the water, does it work?


I dunno, i never tried that. Worthy of an experiment i suppose.

[peabody]

Ducimus and tater,

I read your old thread and got it working. I know it's hit or miss, I prefer miss, but Keltos likes to blow himself up. :har: Still doing some testing, they engage most of the time.
Thanks for your help.

Peabody

[Ducimus]

Ducimus and tater,

I read your old thread and got it working. I know it's hit or miss, I prefer miss, but Keltos likes to blow himself up. :har: Still doing some testing, they engage most of the time.
Thanks for your help.

Peabody

Cool. It's alot to remember and hard to explain. It's was far easier to find the old thread and let it do some of the explaining. :O:

[cgjimeneza]

Holy Crap

MAD on planes and fidos or maybe DCs... keltos and Ducimus are gona have our behinds!!!!

:timeout:

this is something to be very afraid........... cant wait to try it:wah:

[keltos01]

Peabody made it work ! :D

now we need them to drop a dye or a smoke marker on the first pass then attack...


"submerged contact bearing 299 Sir ! "

"stand by for DC release"

:D

keltos

[Jan Kyster]

That's it! :o

MsHearts, here I come! http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/run4hills.gif

[keltos01]

I read someplace that they also had towed MAD arrays on ships :o

MAD gear was used by both Japanese and U.S. anti-submarine forces, either towed by ship or mounted in aircraft to detect shallow submerged enemy submarines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector

keltos

[keltos01]

While the L-type airships would earn their keep in the massive blimp hangers primarily as training ships for up-and-coming pilots and crews, the K-type blimps would earn the reputation as the "work-horse" of World War II LTA missions.
Just over 250 feet in length, the K-ship was well equipped with communications gear and instruments for "blind" and night flying. Each airship had an ASG-type radar with a 90-mile detection radius, Loran long-range navigations systems, and underwater search equipment, such as sonobuoys and MAD (magnetic anomaly detection) gear.

The blimp's arsenal usually consisted of four depth charges, two on the control car's external bomb racks and two in the bomb bay, and a .50-caliber aircraft machine gun in the forward turret. Some blimps were equipped with automatic rifles that could be fired from removable windows in the aft of the control car.

By war's end, LTA squadrons had performed 35,600 operational flights in the Atlantic and 20,300 flights in the Pacific. There was a total of 5.5 million hours in the air, escorting nearly 90,000 ships loaded with cargo, troops, weapons, and supplies.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LFT/is_3_44/ai_87423966/

WWII K-ships had radar, sonobuoys, MAD, depth charges, contact bombs, a machine gun, and during the latter stages of the war, homing torpedoes

:o

http://battleblimps.com/k-ships.html

keltos

[tater]

The japanese also had something like SOSUS, with both MAD, and listening gear.

[keltos01]

did the US already have them ?

keltos

[tater]

Honestly not sure, we didn't have much trouble sinking IJN subs without MAD, LOL.

The IJN campaign should have objectives that require the boat make a contact report at noon at a specific lat/long, then have a decent % of those meeting have a USN ASW asset (sub, ideally) waiting for them, LOL.

[keltos01]

we'll have MAD, homing air torpedoes, and lots of other goodies too !

we have our own Narwhal type too : the J1M :)

and a double 5.5 inch DG


keltos

[keltos01]

What ships did carry MAD gear in WWII ?

keltos

[keltos01]

bump since Ducimus said : - Visual sensor that allows underwate detection changed to that of a psuedo MAD. Comes into play in october 1944, and only on planes that would have had MAD. Duci can you help me with my MAD ?


http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmxn40n1niu/MAD IJN v1.1.7z

keltos

[Ducimus]

bump since Ducimus said : Duci can you help me with my MAD ?



What are you having problems with? I honestly haven't done anything tricky or fancy to my sensors other then specifying a -2.2 or so minsurface factor.

One part of the puzzles however, is environmental mods. I forget the exact variable, but it deals with the min distance of fog rendering in the 4 states of fog in the scene.dat. Unfortunatly RE and EE tend to use a setting that is a big myopic for AI visuals, Looks great, but it handicaps visual detection. Best to use stock values on this particular variable. MinZfactor or something like that, id have to have the file in front of me to tell you. Feel free to rip the fog values out of TMO 2.0 if you want. Don't forget to adjust the sim.cfg as well.

[tater]

What an IJN sub campaign needs are missions that are VERY specific. Go to lat/long and radio base at noon. Then have that mission file generate a US sub or air assets to come and attack that sub.

Failure to follow orders should give the player a huge renown hit to encourage them to meet their ambush in a timely fashion. :)

[keltos01]

What an IJN sub campaign needs are missions that are VERY specific. Go to lat/long and radio base at noon. Then have that mission file generate a US sub or air assets to come and attack that sub.

Failure to follow orders should give the player a huge renown hit to encourage them to meet their ambush in a timely fashion. :)

:O:

Peabody's covering all that !

keltos

[keltos01]

changed from -2.5 to -2.2

testing...

[keltos01]

http://a.imageshack.us/img409/8642/madu.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/madu.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

plane sensor set at -2.2, dove when I spotted the planes with the obs scope, went to 150 feet and didn't get spotted although that PBY came close.

[Ducimus]

Did you check your enviormental settings? That will screw it up.

Also, i'm not 100% positive, but i think what dictates if a plane will attack or not, is if it has any bombs attached to it or not. If the game spawns a plane with no bombs, i suspect it will cruise right on by, and not make the slightest inclination it spotted you.

Also single missions are poor test beds for planes. For some reason they have never behaved in single missions exactly like they will in the campaign. I could be wrong in that though.

[tater]

Yeah, planes must have bombs to attack. You can place dummy bombs, though (invisible, no splash, no damage), then they will hang around.

[peabody]

then they will hang around. The bombs will just hang around? :D

I have found that setting the planes to elite seems to work better too. I don't know if that is just coincidence or not.

Peabody

[keltos01]

how do I place dummy bombs ?

[peabody]

how do I place dummy bombs ?

Invisible 3D model
No splash effect
No explosion effects.

.dat and .sim

And if you want you could make a 3D model that is not a bomb to place on the plane. But if your purpose is to get detected and bombed with MAD, then pick a plane with real bombs.

[tater]

Some planes have a basic loadout that is unarmed. Adding dummies has them "attack" the sub, which insures that they will send a contact report at the very least.

Take MAD planes. The goal is not so much immediate prosecution, but to hold the sub down, AND keep some sense of his position. A lot of bombs (dummies) means multiple passes. Meanwhile, ASW assets can come (even other planes).

I'd tend to want MAD aircraft to fly patterns in specific areas, vs the "airstrike" paradigm seen (assigning them to airbases).

Then you can set the altitude they fly, etc. The goal would really be to altert nearby ASW assets (other groups would then be in their "en garde" status, constant-helming, etc).

[keltos01]

bumpie !