[REQ]'No Map-Contact Updates' done properly

[The General]

The whole point of having 'no map-contact updates' switched off is that you could well sink a friendly unless you properly identified who you were firing at. Unfortunately switching off the 'map-contact updates' reduces gameplay and enjoyment. This element needs an overhaul by either The Devs or a talented Modder. As it stands it's kinda all-or-nothing and I believe a happier medium can be found.

It should be adjusted so that, upon detection of a potential target, a single plot is made on the chart showing the vessel's approximate postion and course. It should not be identified as being friend or foe (red or blue) and the accuracy of it's postion/course etc should only be updated when new information is sent to the Navigator from whatever source you chose, be it calling out from the bridge whilst using binocs (obviously a gameplay element is introduced here by making each station a different experience to use and providing a different level of accuracy for data), the UZO, Periscopes or Sonar Suite (this station was done very well in SH4 for example). Further use of the Map tools (sextant, protractor etc) should provide an even better level of accuracy for your TDC Solution.

The enemy sensor real-time updates are beautifully designed in SH5, with the radius of visual and audible detection increasing/decreasing relative to your 'noise profile' and postition relative to target. I propose that the more information you gather about the target the more of this information is shown to you. For example: when you have an acurately identified the target, the map now shows a rough estimate of the range that the vessel can 'see' (it doesn't need to be updated in realtime, just when you make a new range-to-target measurement). The vessel shouldn't be identified as friend or foe until you are able to make-out the flag (in poor weather this would be at a reduced range, as per all visual sensors, giving you less time to plot an accurate Solution). An option for realtime updates should be available, but would only be for those who are new to the Series.

In summary: Throw 'No map-contact updates' out the window and have a selection in the Gameplay Menu for 'Realtime Map Updates On/Off'.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6168/warship.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/warship.jpg/)

[reaper7]

Very well written. Yes the Map Contacts just dosen't work as of stock.
It's just too unuseable two switch off though - so no happy medium.
This should be high priority for the Devs to sort.
I like your ideas, hopefully they can be implemented one way or the other. :up:

[ddrgn]

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

[kylania]

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

That's the best part of Silent Hunter, both "serious" and well, "non-serious" subsimmers can play the way they want. :)

[The General]

You guys understand I'm proposing a new system that takes elements from both in order to serve the greater good? i.e. Gameplay...and Gameplay is god!

[etheberge]

At a minimum, I would like something like the plotting system in TMO or RFB. Replace the contact icons for ships with a generic dot not available at the two lowest zoom levels, no course trails, no pacmans or detection circles around the contact. Make the sonar contact bearing lines way more subtle. And of course get rid of the the tooltip that gives you the target type, range and speed when you hover the cursor on top of it.

I knew how to do most of this in SH4 by playing with the DDS files but it seems they changed how this works for SH5. Now it seems to be controlled by SHP files that look like this:

ContactDirectionSymbol.shp


0
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
2.0 3.0 0.0
2.0 0.0 1.0
I'm guessing this file is for the course tails on the contact.

I understand the numbers represent a shape using a set of coordinates, but I have no idea how to open these in something other than a text editor to see the actual shape, edit it or replace it altogether with something else.

If anyone knows then please share :-)

These files also control the names on the map. If we can figure this out then we can change a lot of things on the map, including most of the contact stuff.

[Seeadler]

Shp files contain scaleable 2D polygon objects.

In ContactDirectionSymbol.shp
1. object -> 4 vertices = a quad
2. object -> 2 vertices = a line

to get rid off the course line, set the line vertices to zero


0
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0

[etheberge]

Very interesting Seeadler, thank for that info. You seem to know about this stuff, is there a program that can let us open and edit those shape files visually?

I tried a bunch of vector editors but none of were able to open those SHP files.

Shp files contain scaleable 2D polygon objects.

In ContactDirectionSymbol.shp
1. object -> 4 vertices = a quad
2. object -> 2 vertices = a line

to get rid off the course line, set the line vertices to zero


0
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0

[thruster]

would it be easy to make all map contacts grey?
im not taken by the idea of knowing a ships range of awareness. [perhaps im misunderstanding something?]

[ironkross]

I've noticed when clicking on my ship's course setting if there are any ships in the area the ship icons appear, revealing their positions for miles around. And if I drag the course setting lines around the ship icons move on their course. It's a terrible spoiler ingame, you can't help but know those ships are there. This needs to be fixed.

[tater]

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

How any serious subsimmer could think that the "contacts off" paradigm is even remotely realistic is beyond me.

OP is right.

The plotting should be done by the plotter. Are you the captain, or some junior officer? Which is it?

The player should make observations, and those observations should be plotted on the map FOR HIM BY HIS CREW. Guess what, he doesn't brew his own coffee, either.

If you "mark" a target without taking a proper range, the bearing should be drawn out as a line with the option for the skipper to add a guessed range, aob, etc.

If you take a range, then the bearing line gets laid, then a point placed for the target. Again, aob, speed, heading etc can be added by the skipper as an optional addition.

On a 2d or further observation, your crew (as their training taught them) connects the dots, and since they were also properly trained to use a watch, they now also have the speed.

That is realistic. Neither Silent Hunter option is realistic.

[mobucks]

I like the ideas of the OP, what id really like to see is a simple ( ? ) icon on the map whenever a contact is visually sighted, not showing orientation or speed. That would still be a dead giveaway as to range though.

rant
I dont really consider myself a serious subsimmer but a lot of the fun of the game is taken out by knowing the exact location and hostility of contacts.

As it stands, its just so repetitive to be drawing lines and intercepting at 90 deg AOB within 500m so basicly every shot is the same.

I dont mind doing the math for the speed/AOB, but the stadimeter not working really sucks.
end rant

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Just have any spotted ship show up as a grey line. Like what happens when your sonar picks up a contact while on the surface. You know it is there, but dont know how far away, speed, direction, etc. this would be the way I would want it. Would be more like someone calling out " ship spotted bearing 290" , and that is all the info you get untill you actually look at the ship.
Don't know about you guys but I think it would make for a better game.


The more I think about it, this could be done by haveing your sonar work while on the surface but limited to the visual range of your deck crew, but only while on the surface. Once you submerge it would work as normal.

[TopCat]

Besides, there's a bug in the game with plotting the objects. When you go to the Sonar station, use it by yourself and then leave again, all the sonar contacts on the TAI-Map are lost forever (they're still there on the navigatoin map). Very annoying, don't know if this can be fixed in a mod.

[ddrgn]

How any serious subsimmer could think that the "contacts off" paradigm is even remotely realistic is beyond me.

OP is right.

The plotting should be done by the plotter. Are you the captain, or some junior officer? Which is it?

The player should make observations, and those observations should be plotted on the map FOR HIM BY HIS CREW. Guess what, he doesn't brew his own coffee, either.

If you "mark" a target without taking a proper range, the bearing should be drawn out as a line with the option for the skipper to add a guessed range, aob, etc.

If you take a range, then the bearing line gets laid, then a point placed for the target. Again, aob, speed, heading etc can be added by the skipper as an optional addition.

On a 2d or further observation, your crew (as their training taught them) connects the dots, and since they were also properly trained to use a watch, they now also have the speed.

That is realistic. Neither Silent Hunter option is realistic.

If you think balloons on your map with accurate real time information along with the type of ship with a radius showing its sensor range is realistic, well than, what can I do but laugh. You crazy people are so skilled but hardly no how to mark a contact on a map when you see it. Sad really, IMO anyone playing with these updates on sucks hard at this game ;]

[tater]

If you think balloons on your map with accurate real time information along with the type of ship with a radius showing its sensor range is realistic, well than, what can I do but laugh. You crazy people are so skilled but hardly no how to mark a contact on a map when you see it. Sad really, IMO anyone playing with these updates on sucks hard at this game ;]

Who said anything about the stock system in SH? Who would play any SH game unmodded to remove stuff like that, anyway?

Bottom line is that contact reports should be on if the game was designed properly. The captain is the captain, and should never have to plot unless he prefers to interfere with someone else's job.

The whole point is that the contacts plotted on the chart should ONLY be a function of the observations of the captain (player).

You observe, and bearing gets plotted.

You take a bearing and range, and bearing and range (the range YOU got) gets plotted.

No, the sensors should not be on the map, the map should look like a chart with pencil marks on it, period. It should not update in real time, either. Only via observation—and the skipper (YOU) should have to set which contact you are observing if you have the men plot more than one. So if you observe one liberty ship on the first observation, then mistakenly observe another on the 2d, your plots will be entirely wrong.

The plotter can default to drawing a course line ahead X minutes at a time as a straight line pencil mark.

What is sad is that the player is required to play with contacts off to have any sort of realism, AND do the job of a crewman instead of fighting the boat.

So you miss the point, the stock plotting system is 100% unrealistic either way. It needed to be thrown away and redone with SH5, but instead it's the same as SH4 (entirely broken).

[The General]

would it be easy to make all map contacts grey?
im not taken by the idea of knowing a ships range of awareness. [perhaps im misunderstanding something?]Yes, in Fig. 1 of the first Post, I made thethe surface vessel icon is black to represent this (Grey would be fine). Not identifying friend or foe automatically is essential. I have suggested this doesn't happen until you use (whatever optics you happen to be using) and click on the flag. For those rare occasions you spot an enemy sub, this woud be trickier (no flags!), but hey, that'd be more realistic too right?

I've noticed when clicking on my ship's course setting if there are any ships in the area the ship icons appear, revealing their positions for miles around. And if I drag the course setting lines around the ship icons move on their course. It's a terrible spoiler ingame, you can't help but know those ships are there. This needs to be fixed.I have noticed this. Horrible bug :nope:, something to do with the Sonar Operators 'Special' ability to 'show all contacts' maybe?

No, the sensors should not be on the map, the map should look like a chart with pencil marks on it, period.

The stock plotting system is 100% unrealistic either way. It needed to be thrown away and redone with SH5, but instead it's the same as SH4 (entirely broken).Yes, that is my point. It doesn't work properly either way. There are some very good ideas in each iteration of Silent Hunter. For example; in SH4 the Sonar suite works well, sending data to the T.D.C. Realistically the Captain would rarely use this equipment, but for gameplay sake it should be available. As should all other major systems.

[ironkross]

Who said anything about the stock system in SH? Who would play any SH game unmodded to remove stuff like that, anyway?

Bottom line is that contact reports should be on if the game was designed properly. The captain is the captain, and should never have to plot unless he prefers to interfere with someone else's job.

The whole point is that the contacts plotted on the chart should ONLY be a function of the observations of the captain (player).

You observe, and bearing gets plotted.

You take a bearing and range, and bearing and range (the range YOU got) gets plotted.

No, the sensors should not be on the map, the map should look like a chart with pencil marks on it, period. It should not update in real time, either. Only via observation—and the skipper (YOU) should have to set which contact you are observing if you have the men plot more than one. So if you observe one liberty ship on the first observation, then mistakenly observe another on the 2d, your plots will be entirely wrong.

The plotter can default to drawing a course line ahead X minutes at a time as a straight line pencil mark.

What is sad is that the player is required to play with contacts off to have any sort of realism, AND do the job of a crewman instead of fighting the boat.

So you miss the point, the stock plotting system is 100% unrealistic either way. It needed to be thrown away and redone with SH5, but instead it's the same as SH4 (entirely broken).
Yes why should I as captain need to leave my station at the periscope to run to the map table to mark a ships position?
I agree that there needs to be an option for "observed" contacts report, without the movement on the nav map, plus those that are received by radio.



I have noticed this. Horrible bug :nope:, something to do with the Sonar Operators 'Special' ability to show all contacts maybe.

I don't think so, some are way out of range of the hydrophones. I wish they were gone.

[Onkel Neal]

How any serious subsimmer could think that the "contacts off" paradigm is even remotely realistic is beyond me.

OP is right.

The plotting should be done by the plotter. Are you the captain, or some junior officer? Which is it?




I'm both. :) I prefer plotting ships with map contacts off. I do NOT want to see a real time, gods eye view of cartoony icons parading around on a map.
I think it would be nice if the TDC function wrote the results onto the map, to simulate the skipper calling out range, bearing, AOD (course), and speed.

But if that's not possible, make my map tabla rasa and I'll handle the rest.

[tater]

I'm both. :) I prefer plotting ships with map contacts off. I do NOT want to see a real time, gods eye view of cartoony icons parading around on a map.
I think it would be nice if the TDC function wrote the results onto the map, to simulate the skipper calling out range, bearing, AOD (course), and speed.

But if that's not possible, make my map tabla rasa and I'll handle the rest.


I play Sh4 with contacts off because I have no choice. It's off—and I am forced to do the work of a few men—or magic.

I'd prefer neither. It's a CHOICE on the part of the devs, they have auto contacts on for the twitch crowd, which is fine, but they entirely misunderstand the way contacts were prosecuted, I guess, or don't care.

We can send contacts to the TDC. We can take two observations and get the speed with the TDC. There is no reason it could not draw the two dots on the map, then connect the dots. All the time wasted (yes, wasted) on interior nonsense could have been spent animating the plotter PLOTTING. Heck, you could watch him plot over his shoulder. THERE is an immersive animation, IMNSHO.

I never want the god's eye nonsense, that should have been clear, what I want is for the paradigm to be the player as skipper, nothing more, nothing less. It's odd, that in SH5 they went to that as an RPG-like notion to the extreme, but missed the most important part—that RPG element when fighting the boat.