South Korean ship fires on a ship

[TLAM Strike]

Presumably this was done by a sub.

Deprive NK of her subs. Follow them out of port, then quietly sink them, saying nothing at all. NK sub leaves port, NK sub disappears. It's not like they'll even know where to look for the wreckage.

It should be assumed that the DPRK has either distress pingers or buoys on their subs should they go down.

The Yellow Sea is very shallow so recovery is possible, and the DPRK does have a Kowan class sub rescue ship (ASR).

[Aramike]

It should be assumed that the DPRK has either distress pingers or buoys on their subs should they go down.

The Yellow Sea is very shallow so recovery is possible, and the DPRK does have a Kowan class sub rescue ship (ASR).In any case, I still think we should elinate their sub force.

[gandalf71]

That sub shown in the article above looks amazingly similar to a Type XXIII :hmmm:

[Raptor1]

That sub shown in the article above looks amazingly similar to a Type XXIII :hmmm:

Many modern submarines look like that, it's a design adapted in a lot of post-WWII vessels.

[Zachstar]

You cant give NK an excuse to attack. You cant quietly sink a sub. A 100 dollar hack job could make you a distress bouy that pops up also if they gather evidence they would claim SK is warmongering and invade on the spot.

Also china.. China will never go to war for NK but they have to go to war against NK if we have any hope that casualties would be minimized. There are internal pro china elements that could take over if china crosses the border but they are powerless beforehand.

[Turbografx]

Frankly, I think the SK response is pretty weak. I understand a conflict would probably be quite deadly, at least for the inhabitants of Seoul and certainly for NK, but at the same time such a subdued response is allowing NK to hold them hostage, to set the terms.

NK intentionally attack a warship of the SK navy, murdering SK sailors/citizens, claim if SK take action they will attack again and so SK suck it up and the only response is a freaking exercise and limited trade sanctions? (30% of trade with NK if I recall). Weak; NK is treating SK like a little b***h and they seem happy to comply.

[Weiss Pinguin]

Frankly, I think the SK response is pretty weak. I understand a conflict would probably be quite deadly, at least for the inhabitants of Seoul and certainly for NK, but at the same time such a subdued response is allowing NK to hold them hostage, to set the terms.
Agreed. I can understand that maybe they don't want an outright war, but if you do this with a bully, you get nowhere, and may even encourage said bully to go even further. Just my 2 cents.

[Zachstar]

It isnt limited SK is stopping all its trade with the north as well as cutting vital sea lanes. Its going to hurt NK especially when food shipments stop arriving.

[Turbografx]

It isnt limited SK is stopping all its trade with the north as well as cutting vital sea lanes. Its going to hurt NK especially when food shipments stop arriving.

Nope, according to NPR this evening they aren't cutting all the trade. Specifically, an important, joint-overseen industrial zone on the border will remain unaffected, which makes up the majority of the SK-NK trade.

However, the biggest source of trade — a joint factory park in the North Korean border town of Kaesong where some 110 South Korean firms employ about 42,000 North Koreans — will remain open, Hyun said.


Source: NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127084709)

[geetrue]

Deprive NK of her subs. Follow them out of port, then quietly sink them, saying nothing at all. NK sub leaves port, NK sub disappears. It's not like they'll even know where to look for the wreckage.

I bet someone at someone's invitation already proposed this at someone's pre-conference before they do something to someone in a boardroom somewhere with other military types of people in attendence and either the measure was approved or sneered at, but like the old Greek poem,

"I am Echo"

"Tit for tit and tat for tat, if you say that then I have to say that, if you'll be silent then I must for who could have a tongue more just"

[Nordmann]

The sinking of the ROKS Cheonan is a very serious transgression, and reason enough for an all out declaration of war, though I doubt the South will take such a route initially. Which is a pity really, someone needs to do something about North Korea, and soon.

These repeated attempts by North Korea to provoke a war are nothing short of insane, they will lose, and lose hard. South Korean forces are well equipped and well trained, they also work closely with those of the US and NATO in general.

Any instigation of hostilities by the North will only land them up to their necks, facing off against not only South Korea, but the US, and possibly other NATO members, to say little of the inevitable crippling sanctions. Regardless of the size of their military, this is a fight that they simply cannot win, nor should they even try; it may well even spell the end for the regime in power.

[Skybird]

they also work closely with those of the US and NATO in general.

NATO...? I thought we still are not settled with defending Europe in the Hindu Kush - and now we already are engaged in defending the North Atlantic residents in South East Asia...? Where do we find ourselves next? Establishing NATO headquarters on Fiji Islands?

[Nordmann]

NATO...? I thought we still are not settled with defending Europe in the Hindu Kush - and now we already are engaged in defending the North Atlantic residents in South East Asia...? Where do we find ourselves next? Establishing NATO headquarters on Fiji Islands?

So you would rather the North Koreans invade and violently subjugate their southern neighbour? By that logic, we should have allowed Hitler to do as he pleased with Eastern Europe! After all, it was none of our business.

[SteamWake]

Wow I'm impressed that someone could use NPR as a source :03:

Carry on.

[Skybird]

So you would rather the North Koreans invade and violently subjugate their southern neighbour? By that logic, we should have allowed Hitler to do as he pleased with Eastern Europe! After all, it was none of our business.

No I just want to point out that the foriegn military engagement in Korea is an American one - not a NATO operation. And although it is not worth much, even the UN's legitimiation would go first before NATO's goes there.

NATO is no Asian player. Already with Afghanistan it is hopelessly overchallenged and overstretched. America wants to redefine NATO as a global police force and the auxiliary army of American global policies, we all know that. But outside North America, the other NATO members in Europe show little entzhusiasm for this idea.


NATO is an alliance that was founded to defend the North Atlantic sphere, that means Europe and North America.

Not the Far East (or Australia or South America or the Antarctic or Africa).

The historical ideas was to repusle any attack on the territory of Europe or North America by Soviet forces. The Sovjets are gone - but that does not automatically leave all the rest of the world as NATO's playfield. No nation in Europe is prepared to fight another was, nesdie the two already running, and this time in Asia. There is no politcal acceptance, and no military potency to shift significant forces around all the globe. Even the Brits will hate the idea.

[Nordmann]

No I just want to point out that the foriegn military engagement in Korea is an American one - not a NATO operation. And although it is not worth much, even the UN's legitimiation would go first before NATO's goes there.

NATO is no Asian player. Already with Afghanistan it is hopelessly overchallenged and overstretched. America wants to redefine NATO as a global police force and the auxiliary army of American global policies, we all know that. But outside North America, the other NATO members in Europe show little entzhusiasm for this idea.


NATO is an alliance that was founded to defend the North Atlantic sphere, that means Europe and North America. The historical ideas was to repusle any attack on the territory of Europe or North America by Soviet forces. The Sovjets are gone - but that does not automatically leave all the rest of the world as NATO's playfield.

Not the Far East (or Australia or South America or the Antarctic or Africa).

NATO may have been formed to defend the North Atlantic sphere from the Soviets, but its role has been redefined and expanded with the fall of the Soviet Union. Something as destabilising as another conflict in Korea, would most definitely warrant the attention of NATO.

The UN cannot be relied upon to come to any conclusive decision, let alone one of a military nature. They will make all the right noises, but at the end of the day, they will sit back and see what happens. This is their way, and I cannot see it changing any time soon. They are peace-keepers, not fighters.

I will agree that we are overstretched with Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention public opinion (which is always against conflict in general), but support of the South doesn't necessarily mean the mobilisation of an entire military force. There are many other contributions which can be made, such as supplies, arms and equipment, strategic advisers, special forces, naval units etc etc.

What I was trying to point out, is the ridiculous notion which the North appears to harbour, in that they can provoke and then attack a sovereign neighbour, without the West responding in kind. Respond we will, and respond we most definitely should.

It is our duty to protect the South from invasion, occupation, and inevitable oppression. Anything other than this stance, would essentially legitimise similar actions by other aggressive states; in other words, the flood gates would be well and truly open.

[Skybird]

NATO may have been formed to defend the North Atlantic sphere from the Soviets, but its role has been redefined and expanded with the fall of the Soviet Union.

No it hasn't, as a matter of fact it is struggling until today to find itself a new identity and a new casue for it'S existence. That is the reason why it is in such a poor shape and why there are so many rifts within NATO. What you sqay reflects only the american desire for NATO - harshly opposed by some and silently but stubbornly sabotaged by other european NATO members. Euro simply does not want and is not prepared to take up that role you outline. The only th9ing they all have consensus on is that the old identity of NATO obviously has become obsolete, with the reason why it was founded having become obsolete as well.

If you want an illustration of NATO's split structure and political potency, just look at Afghanistan (although I am against NATO having become engaged there too, though for different reasons, as outlined in many threads in the past 4 years :) )


The UN cannot be relied upon to come to any conclusive decision, let alone one of a military nature. They will make all the right noises, but at the end of the day, they will sit back and see what happens. This is their way, and I cannot see it changing any time soon. They are peace-keepers, not fighters.
Often they are not even that. Almost every time they are being challenged, to be precisely. Some of the worst atrocities and mass killings took place right under their witnessing eyes.


I will agree that we are overstretched with Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention public opinion (which is always against conflict in general), but support of the South doesn't necessarily mean the mobilisation of an entire military force. There are many other contributions which can be made, such as supplies, arms and equipment, strategic advisers, special forces, naval units etc etc.
That is more indirect a committment. I say: maybe. But no personell and no navy fighting units to Korea. No Dutch frigates and German subs and norwegian F-16 starting to shoot on Chinese forces in Asia - this is the risk I wantg to rule out at all costs. The US at least is a player in the Pacific region. Europe is not, NATO is not.


What I was trying to point out, is the ridiculous notion which the North appears to harbour, in that they can provoke and then attack a sovereign neighbour, without the West responding in kind. Respond we will, and respond we most definitely should.
Below the nuclear level, it is primarily China's America's, Korea's, Japan's and the regional neighbours' business - not the West's.


It is our duty to protect the South from invasion, occupation, and inevitable oppression.
Duty you say. Well, as far as the treaties between SK and the US are saying that, yes. NATO has no such treaties with Korea, to my knowledge at least.

Anything other than this stance, would essentially legitimise similar actions by other aggressive states; in other words, the flood gates would be well and truly open.
It is neither the West'S not NATO's moral or legal obligation (nor freedom) to manage all the world'S conflicts. We should (and must, due to our limited resources and waining power) focus on those conflicts that can threaten us, the West, where we are, in the West. Beyond that I would be extremely careful and hesitent. Iraq is a failure. Afghanistan is a failure - two lessons in just 8 years that better get learned and fully understood in depth.

[Catfish]

Read the truth:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/forum/

Homepage is here:
http://www.korea-dpr.com/

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

OMG and to think that only one of those citizens believes that stuff :stare:
Just imagine you were born there, and don't know it better :dead:

Maybe if we all send 'em a message like "Be very careful ..."

Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Wow, they already developed solar fusion to rescue mankind:


" ... Scientists of the DPRK succeeded in nuclear fusion reaction on the significant occasion of the Day of the Sun this year, according to Rodong Sinmun Wednesday.

It goes on:

The successful nuclear fusion marks a great event that demonstrated the rapidly developing cutting-edge science and technology of the DPRK.
The nuclear fusion technology is called “artificial solar” technology as it represents a field of the latest science and technology for the development of new energy desired by humankind.

The nuclear fusion technology for obtaining safe and environment-friendly new energy the source of which is abundant draws great attention of world science at present.

Scientists of the DPRK have worked hard to develop nuclear fusion technology their own way.


:rotfl2::rock:

Greetings,
Catfish

[Nordmann]

*Snip*

Precisely the response I was expecting. I find this "wait and see, it's not our business" attitude extremely disturbing. Is this not the very same attitude prevalent during some of history's worst atrocities? Some of which are still rather fresh in our memories.

You say we should not act as world police, which is all well and good, but what about the much used 'human rights' act? If we adhere to such policies in our own nations, surely it is hypocritical of us to turn a blind eye to flagrant transgressions elsewhere? I point you to NK's well known violations of principal human rights, notwithstanding a total disregard for life in general.

An invasion of SK by the North, would herald human rights abuses on a scale not seen for some time, as they are quite happy to inflict these punishments upon their own citizens without a second thought.

I have seen numerous claims by both the media and some politicians (the same ones who supported it wholeheartedly) about Iraq and Afghanistan being illegal wars, and illegal invasions of sovereign nations, yet apparently it is acceptable for NK to invade SK while we sit back supping coffee (tea in my case).

It may not be our duty by binding agreement, but it is our duty as freedom loving democratic peoples to ensure the continued existence of the South as a free and self governing nation. Anything else flies in the face of everything we claim to stand for, that is unless of course you are pro-dictatorship?

I remind you, and this is no doubt a sore subject, that North Korea has many similarities to a certain German dictatorship some 65 years ago. A dictatorship which most European countries were more than happy to dispose of in due course.

Something to think about.

[Raptor1]

Wow, they already developed solar fusion to rescue mankind:


" ... Scientists of the DPRK succeeded in nuclear fusion reaction on the significant occasion of the Day of the Sun this year, according to Rodong Sinmun Wednesday.

It goes on:

The successful nuclear fusion marks a great event that demonstrated the rapidly developing cutting-edge science and technology of the DPRK.
The nuclear fusion technology is called “artificial solar” technology as it represents a field of the latest science and technology for the development of new energy desired by humankind.

The nuclear fusion technology for obtaining safe and environment-friendly new energy the source of which is abundant draws great attention of world science at present.

Scientists of the DPRK have worked hard to develop nuclear fusion technology their own way.


:rotfl2::rock:

Greetings,
Catfish

Heard about this a while ago, one of the most ridiculous claims ever made IMO...

[Safe-Keeper]

Better invade the North before they put these mini-suns of mass destruction to use.

[Raptor1]

Though I wonder what took them so long. After all, can the Great Leader not generate fusion with his bare hands (And therefore supply energy to the people who are not at all lacking energy or being oppressed...at all...and get back to work!)?

[Safe-Keeper]

He works in mysterious ways.
{insert a couple other apologist answers to the Problem of Evil here}

[Schroeder]

@Nordmann
Where do the forces come from that you want to send to the south? Germany has already trouble to contribute the few thousand troops to Afghanistan, Kosovo etc. and I think the other Nato members are a bit hard pressed as well.
Judging from your post I guess you want us to liberate half of Africa too once we are done with NK. I mean there are clashes and dictators too and we as freedom loving democratic people should remove them as well. And then ther is Myanmar, Belarus, Cambodia.....maybe even Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Where do you want to start and where do you want to end this?
We simply can't be the world police. We don't have the resources and we have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan that removing the dictators alone doesn't finish the job. We can't be everywhere and not all peoples agree with our way of live and government.

[Jimbuna]

Wow, they already developed solar fusion to rescue mankind:


" ... Scientists of the DPRK succeeded in nuclear fusion reaction on the significant occasion of the Day of the Sun this year, according to Rodong Sinmun Wednesday.

It goes on:

The successful nuclear fusion marks a great event that demonstrated the rapidly developing cutting-edge science and technology of the DPRK.
The nuclear fusion technology is called “artificial solar” technology as it represents a field of the latest science and technology for the development of new energy desired by humankind.

The nuclear fusion technology for obtaining safe and environment-friendly new energy the source of which is abundant draws great attention of world science at present.

Scientists of the DPRK have worked hard to develop nuclear fusion technology their own way.


:rotfl2::rock:

Greetings,
Catfish

Next they'll be promising to create such wonderfully new inventions for there people such as radio, tv and running water :hmmm:

I bet they've never thought of inventing a food store yet :DL

[Oberon]

Next they'll be promising to create such wonderfully new inventions for there people such as radio, tv and running water :hmmm:

I bet they've never thought of inventing a food store yet :DL

Such things are merely tools of the capitalists to oppress their workers! Really Comrade Buna, I expected better of you. Everyone knows that good juche workers need only the love of the Dear Leader in order to serve him!

[MattDizzle]

Think of it this way, east germany has not totally recovered from the unification that happened twenty years ago, its still not as good as west germany, and that was under the supervision of the soviet union.

North korea has been a minor communist state without any real support (china? pfft) for decades now, and a relitively modern south korea has little to gain from having a giant tumor of a country forced upon it. North korea is the country that time forgot :)

[TLAM Strike]

Wow, they already developed solar fusion to rescue mankind:


" ... Scientists of the DPRK succeeded in nuclear fusion reaction on the significant occasion of the Day of the Sun this year, according to Rodong Sinmun Wednesday.

It goes on:

The successful nuclear fusion marks a great event that demonstrated the rapidly developing cutting-edge science and technology of the DPRK.
The nuclear fusion technology is called “artificial solar” technology as it represents a field of the latest science and technology for the development of new energy desired by humankind.

The nuclear fusion technology for obtaining safe and environment-friendly new energy the source of which is abundant draws great attention of world science at present.

Scientists of the DPRK have worked hard to develop nuclear fusion technology their own way.


:rotfl2::rock:

Greetings,
Catfish
:timeout:
Oh come on I would have expected a little better from members of Subsim. "Artificial Solar" is just a really old term probably poorly translated. Have you never heard of a "Solar-Phoenix"? Or a "Bethe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethe)-cycle" weapon? A Fusion Bomb? Fusion is what powers stars guys, artificial fusion = fusion "devices" incl bombs and reactors... :nope:

NATO...? I thought we still are not settled with defending Europe in the Hindu Kush - and now we already are engaged in defending the North Atlantic residents in South East Asia...? Where do we find ourselves next? Establishing NATO headquarters on Fiji Islands?
Canada is a member of NATO and has a Pacific coast. Should it not defend against aggression in the Pacific since it has an interest in that region? Japan, ROK, Australia and NZ are NATO "Contact Countries" which basically means they are not part of the Alliance because the charter prohibits it but cooperate with the militaries of NATO countries.

[Raptor1]

:timeout:
Oh come on I would have expected a little better from members of Subsim. "Artificial Solar" is just a really old term probably poorly translated. Have you never heard of a "Solar-Phoenix"? Or a "Bethe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethe)-cycle" weapon? A Fusion Bomb? Fusion is what powers stars guys, artificial fusion = fusion "devices" incl bombs and reactors... :nope:


We are aware of what is fusion, where it works and what it's used for.

The notion that North Korea managed to achieve sustained, controlled fusion is rather ridiculous though...

[TLAM Strike]

We are aware of what is fusion, where it works and what it's used for.

The notion that North Korea managed to achieve sustained, controlled fusion is rather ridiculous though...
They build a 5MW experimental reactor at Yongbyon the same site where their old Soviet designed reactor is. The site has been partly decommissioned since it appears they have used all their fuel rods up and only use the site for reprocessing of the spent rods in to materiel for weapons.

[Skybird]

Think of it this way, east germany has not totally recovered from the unification that happened twenty years ago, its still not as good as west germany, and that was under the supervision of the soviet union.

Not only East Germany, but West Germany as well. Unification really has sucked us all into the swamp, East and West. Financially, it is a total disaster. And that combines now with the cataclysmic demographics, and the big economic lies of our lives in all Western countries since WWII: that we spend more like we can afford, and that we waste all wealth like crazy, and even in the best of economic times never make any effort to save for the bad times, but waste what we have and what was emant to serve our children's future.

And still, although now the bills are being presented, still politicians lie to us about it and try to distract by exclusively blame bankers.


North korea has been a minor communist state without any real support (china? pfft) for decades now, and a relitively modern south korea has little to gain from having a giant tumor of a country forced upon it. North korea is the country that time forgot :)

I often wondered how SK thinks it could bear the burden of having to fund the reunited Korean state, if the North brakes down. German example lectures me to take a pessimistic stand. I do not know how their demographics are, but sure as hell they have to face the same stressed ressources market like we in the West, too. Also, they are within the sphere of influence of the Asian economy and finances market, and Japan is an economy with big structural problems and a critical financial status, also with a big deficits and high debts, and enormous demographic and sociologic problems. I see big chances that Japan also collapses sooner or later, and that will create shockwaves in all Asia. Having to face that and having the Northkorean millstone bound around their neck will pull South Korea down. Possible that even NK alone would pull them down, NK is in a much worse condition than East Germany was. We had better conditons for reunification than Korea has, and we broke down - how would they do it with worse conditions, and in even more difficult times...?

[Jimbuna]

Such things are merely tools of the capitalists to oppress their workers! Really Comrade Buna, I expected better of you. Everyone knows that good juche workers need only the love of the Dear Leader in order to serve him!


LOL....true :DL

[Skybird]

Precisely the response I was expecting. I find this "wait and see, it's not our business" attitude extremely disturbing. [/quite]

I usually try to be a realist, and I differ between the world how I think it should be and the world as it is and in which I/we must come along with the resspurces we have - and these are limited. I gave direct and precise reasons for my thinlking, but you just simplify it and summarise it in a generalised phrase that ignores realities hindering you? I find it hard to take that serious.

[quote]Is this not the very same attitude prevalent during some of history's worst atrocities? Some of which are still rather fresh in our memories.
Kongo. Ruanda. Somalia. where was america, where was NATO to invade the place and bring order to it? Where was America? Europe? Trutzh is, we were not interested. Truth also is that we could not "solve" all these horrors even if we wanted.

You say we should not act as world police, which is all well and good, but what about the much used 'human rights' act? If we adhere to such policies in our own nations, surely it is hypocritical of us to turn a blind eye to flagrant transgressions elsewhere?
Influence for the better what we can influence. And understand that all the world is beyond our reach. This planet is both heaven and hell. Both made by mankind.

I point you to NK's well known violations of principal human rights, notwithstanding a total disregard for life in general.
And I point you to the known record of violation of Hhuman rights in saudi arabia, Egypt, Algeria. To mention just three. Also reminding you that there are some global ideologies at work declaring the female half of mankind as slaves. Okay, let'S do your miracle, solve all this. Let'S do some magic. You imply that america can do all that. Notz a single word I hear from you on powerful states not only being not interested in your goals, but even being interested in actively opposing them.

An invasion of SK by the North, would herald human rights abuses on a scale not seen for some time, as they are quite happy to inflict these punishments upon their own citizens without a second thought.
Yet the fate of the two koreas is not worth the life of a single NATO soldier. It is a Korean and Asian thing. Not ours. the only concern we legally can have in this is Northkorean nuclear weapons, and Korean proliferation.

Tibet on my mind. Maybe we should invade China!

You really must learn the lessons of the Iraq war. There was big talk about the beacon of democracy, and freedom for Iraq, etc etc and bla bla bla. Look at it now and try to see what the forseeable future will bring to Iraq - qzite the opposite of what Bush claimed toi hope for. Same is true for Afghanistan.


It may not be our duty by binding agreement, but it is our duty as freedom loving democratic peoples to ensure the continued existence of the South as a free and self governing nation. Anything else flies in the face of everything we claim to stand for, that is unless of course you are pro-dictatorship?
Please explain why all this is true for south Korea, but not for the many other conflicts and catastrphes taking place. If you really want to solve them all by military intervention, you're in for two hundred years of war - if you would have the ressources to do that. but neither has the US nor the rest of NATO the ressoruces for fighting all the many wars you idealistically demand.

I remind you, and this is no doubt a sore subject, that North Korea has many similarities to a certain German dictatorship some 65 years ago. A dictatorship which most European countries were more than happy to dispose of in due course. .
not ewanting to defend the GDR, I must nevertheless remind you that the GDR was the richest and wealthiest nation in the league of communist regimes. Compared to North Korea, it was a quite liberal paradise. It was also the most liberal state within the Warsaw Pact. the whip of the Sowjets was felt with quite bigger sting in the other european WP states.

I do not believe in just wars, Nordman, I only differ between wars of need and wars of choice. The first cannot (at least should not) be evaded, the latter is always evil. I also differ between what one thinks should be acchieved, and what actually can be achieved in this reality welive in, with the limited ressources available. You want all, driven by idealism (that nevertheless would mean global world war for decades to come, if one thinks it to the end, and then one could ask about that "idealism").

I honestly thinkl that you simply lack enough sense of realism, and that you ignore the lessons of the Iraq and Afghanistan war, and that warfare itself has changed and the old theories on it are no longer that valid: because there is no more a dominant superpower, there is much assymmtric war, and in this globalised world almost all nations in one or many ways are mutually depending on each other, economically.

You remind me of what Napoleon wanted in europe. He wanted a pacified europe, under some sort of French leadership of course, where the endless wars between states would have been brought o an end, by force. But these wars before him had a simp,e reason, it was a constant baancing of power, and every time one nation was in a position to breach for continental dominance, alliances changed and new alliances rose to hinder this nation to become too dominant. Napoleon overcma ehtis, by brute force and superior tactics. But only for some years. And for some years only it is that America could support the illusions to have chnaged Iraq and Afghansitan according to thze former claims ten years ago. In this globalised world, even america, even NATO, is not powerful enough to overcome all the many powerful opponents there are: the OPEC nations. China. Increasingly Brazil. The EU. Russia. Some of these players fight with economic weapons, others with financial weapons, but only america puts prioroity in fighting with military weapons. Financially it is a bubble, economically it is highly vulnerable. And the opponents i listed are out of reach for military strategies. and the allies of america, europe, do not want to be obedient vasally and deputies for American global policies, but instead are a strong economic competition, with the EU being an economic power the US cannot simply push out of it's way.

Get some sense of realism, Nordman. What you want if only you were living in an ideal world and the game'S God-mode and the invincible-cheat and the unlimited money-cheat were available to you, is one thing. What you can do and what you get in this real world, is somethign very different.

P.S. On East Germany, read my selective comments in my previous posting. On 500 years of European balance of power and the interaction between military, economy and state finances in Europe (and how military overstretching has repeatedly brought European powers to state bancruptcy), see Paul Kennedy's formidable "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers". On the cycle of empires raising, climaxing and falling, Herrfried Münkel'S excellent "Empires. the Logic of world Domination from Ancient Rome to the United States." On the chnage in war theory and the what the future asymmetric wears bring, "The New Wars" by the same author. And since I touched on the issue of overstretched nations and limited ressources and nations facing the economic and demograhic problems that we today face, once again I recommend this book by Jared Diamond, "Collapse. How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed."

i always seem to recommend the same books. But that is simply because they are so damn good and I haven't found better ones on their topics meanwhile.

and finally, since I am recomemnding books, on politic realism: Machiavelli's "Discorsi", a man who is very fundamentally misunderstood and misinterpreted by many, until today. His sin is not that he was an evil political scholar favouring brutal egoism. His sin was that he simply was - a calm, reasonable realist. Whenever I read his Discorsi, it brings calm to my emotions and clearness to my mind.

[Oberon]

ROK/US ASW exercises:

http://i46.tinypic.com/x3ac20.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2hxyp3d.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/ouxraf.jpg
U.S. Army Gen. Walter L. Sharp, commander of U.S. Forces Korea, salutes after he offered flowers on the Books of Remembrance which lists the 33,870 American who died in Korean War, during the Memorial Day Honor Guard Ceremony at Knight Field, a U.S. military base in Seoul, South Korea, Thursday, May 27, 2010. (AP)

http://i47.tinypic.com/20p51yv.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/209kg95.jpg

[Jimbuna]

The ASW exercises don't suprise me but the outfit worn by the lady standing to the left of the General does :hmmm:

[Weiss Pinguin]

:rotfl2:

[TLAM Strike]

While this ASWEX was going on a ROKN KDX-II class Destroyer turned back a DPRK cargo ship that attempted to cross in to South Korean waters.

[Jimbuna]

More than likely the NK 'testing' the waters again.

[Reece]

I get the impression that NK is baiting!:stare:

[Platapus]

I get the impression that NK is baiting!:stare:

I understand that Kim Jong Il is a master at that.

[Reece]

I understand that Kim Jong Il is a master at that.Yes I do believe so!:haha: He has a firm grip on things!:03:

[Jimbuna]

Yes I do believe so!:haha: He has a firm grip on things!:03:

I'm not so sure he'd appreciate that knowledge/information being made public :DL

[TLAM Strike]

We went from discussing a possible war to Kim Jong-il's masturbation habits in only 20 pages. Great going guys... :hmmm:

Some times I worry about you all... :nope:

[Oberon]

http://i46.tinypic.com/x60b37.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/szzx5f.jpg

South Korean army special force soldiers take position during a chemical warfare drill outside a hotel in Seoul on May 28, 2010.

[Platapus]

We went from discussing a possible war to Kim Jong-il's masturbation habits in only 20 pages. Great going guys... :hmmm:

Some times I worry about you all... :nope:

You are right, usually we can derail a thread to sex in 15 pages. We are slipping.

[Weiss Pinguin]

You are right, usually we can derail a thread to sex in 15 pages. We are slipping.
Heck, just look at the Original Subsim game thread! 3 pages and it's gone from an old boardgame to sheep.

[Castout]

You know what I have to stand up for Mr Kim Jong Il. He suffers sometimes too much of a bad lime light and ridicules because he's not a western ally and because he's regime is failing economically.

Specifically in the case of womanizing or lust I sincerely believe that MANY MANY political leaders are addicted to this. The difference with Mr Kim is most of these leaders womanizing habits are not publicized hence known to many.

Just a short while ago there was a revelation that a certain Australian based company had been using sex as a bribe to some Malaysian officials.

And this report is just one of those rare cases when these kind of practice gets a publicity.

All I care in political leaders who engage in womanizing is not to implicate it with murder and rape or forcing himself to women even by way of indirect intimidation.

For one I respect Mr Sarkozy action who legalized and made public his relationship with a certain beautiful women. That's real manhood. :yeah:

[TLAM Strike]

http://i46.tinypic.com/x60b37.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/szzx5f.jpg

South Korean army special force soldiers take position during a chemical warfare drill outside a hotel in Seoul on May 28, 2010.




Doesn'tlook like they are well equipped for a CBRN environment. Their face masks have no filters and their noses are sticking out. More likely its a Counter-Terrorist type drill.

[Tribesman]

Doesn'tlook like they are well equipped for a CBRN environment.
Government cutbacks.

[Fincuan]

They're not wearing proper masks, just some nomex to cover the faces and protect against fire. Judging by those pics none of them is carrying a gas mask either.

[Jimbuna]

We went from discussing a possible war to Kim Jong-il's masturbation habits in only 20 pages. Great going guys... :hmmm:

Some times I worry about you all... :nope:

It also shows that we can be united rather quickly when we all agree on the same point namely.....he's a right w*nker :DL

[Jimbuna]

They're not wearing proper masks, just some nomex to cover the faces and protect against fire. Judging by those pics none of them is carrying a gas mask either.

Well I thought it was simply a case of them all having had a hot spicey dish the night before and the picture was depicting the rush to get to the porta-loo :hmmm:

[Fincuan]

Yeah could be. The lead guy is just placing explosives on the door to get the previous occupant out, while the rest urge him to hurry :D

[Oberon]

Some more of the ROK Counter-toilet...I mean...terrorist ops:

South Korea special warfare command troops participate in a drill against possible threats from North Korea at the Marriott hotel on May 28, 2010 in Seoul, South Korea. The exercise is intended to prepare the South Korean defence force for any potential action from North Korea and preparation for possible terrorist attacks during the upcoming G-20 Finance Minister and Central Bank Governors Meeting to be held in Busan in June, this year.
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/South%20Korea/14445de8.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/South%20Korea/4c3d534f.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/South%20Korea/9b1d0d79.jpg


I've got to admit, if things did kick off over there, DPRK agents could be a real pain in the arse in the ROK. So let's hope these guys remember their masks.

[Jimbuna]

Wouldn't you think the training manual would explain the fact that there is no need to use the light on the firearm during daylight hours when the internal building lighting is already on :DL

[Platapus]

Wouldn't you think the training manual would explain the fact that there is no need to use the light on the firearm during daylight hours when the internal building lighting is already on :DL

Unless you find yourself in an interior room or hallway and the terrorists utilize an advanced technique of switching the light off? :O:

[Fincuan]

Nitpicking things from pics on guys who do that stuff for living is always fun :haha:

Rapelling pic, the guy on the left has a carabiner-on-carabiner contact in his rig. I've always been taught it's a big no-no, even more so during rapelling than anchor building or just plaing climbing. In a set-up like that they can actually twist each other's gates open, or just twist against each other and break. That's a very bad set-up considering how carabiners are designed to work, ie. in what direction they're most durable.

[Platapus]

I was in Korea during the Olympics and I was very impressed with the security forces. Starting years before, the Koreans selected the best of the best and then started weeding out those who were not the best of the best of the best. We supported some of their training and I would NOT want to mess with the Korean security forces. :nope:

During the Olympics, the security at the airports was tight, but fast moving. The security checks started when you entered the parking lot and the last security check was just as you were stepping from the jetway into the Aircraft. But all though this, the passengers were treated with respect and the security checks went smooth and fast. :yeah:

I can't remember feeling safer in an Airport than when I was in Seoul during the Olympics. :salute:

[TLAM Strike]

Wouldn't you think the training manual would explain the fact that there is no need to use the light on the firearm during daylight hours when the internal building lighting is already on :DL
The flash light is an old trick to quickly center your weapon on a target while firing from the hip. Put the bad guy in the center of the light and pull the trigger.

[Weiss Pinguin]

The flash light is an old trick to quickly center your weapon on a target while firing from the hip. Put the bad guy in the center of the light and pull the trigger.
You learn something new everyday :hmmm:

Also, is it just me, or does the guy on the left in the 2nd picture look like Korean Robocop?

[XabbaRus]

Back on topic though, I see the conspiracy theorists are now saying that ROK or even USA sank the Cheopan in order to turn things against NK.

[Schroeder]

Yeah, because we have so much to benefit from doing this....:yawn:

[Fincuan]

That was the first thing the local nutjobs said here, after which came SK's claims of NK being the culprit. I don't really buy into this theory at all and I think the official explanation is more than plausible given the players we're dealing with here. That said the "intel" used to justify the toppling of Saddam turned out to be false or even fabricated in large parts too, so there's not much that would come as a huge surprise.

[OneToughHerring]

Well if the Brits could wriggle themselves from responsiblity when it came to the sinking of the Belgrano it shouldn't be too difficult for NK either.

[Tribesman]

Well if the Brits could wriggle themselves from responsiblity when it came to the sinking of the Belgrano it shouldn't be too difficult for NK either.
Well I don't know about you, but on the planet I live on the British made a big show of sinking the Belgrano, they put it as the main headline in all the news, the politicians made big speaches about doing it and they did a celebration for the submarine that sank the cruiser and put that in all the news just in case anyone missed all the earlier publicity.
Perhaps in your strange world doing a big flag waving show announcing to everyone as often as possible "look what we did, we sank a ship:woot:" is wriggling from responsibility, but on this planet it is advertising your actions very publicly.

[Jimbuna]

The Belgrano was deemed a threat to the British Task Force, her 6 inch guns had a range of 13 miles and it was thought she may also have been fitted with anti ship missiles, her two escorting destroyers certainly were.

Add to that the fact that the carrier 25 de Mayo was believed to be heading north in a classic pincer movement against the Task Force plus the fact there had been extensive air attacks on British ships the previous day and not forgetting the British Navy tradition of engaging the enemy at every opportunity.

What choice was there?

Tha Argentinians were the aggressors from day one and knew full well the potential consequences of their actions.

The British Government didn't assemble a Task Force of such potential and magnitude as a sabre rattling exercise.

Below is an extract from Margaret Thatchers memoirs...the person who ultimately gave the order to engage:

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/speeches/displaydocument.asp?docid=109118


The next day, Sunday, which I spent at Chequers, was one of great - though often misunderstood - significance for the outcome of the Falklands War. As often on Sundays during the crisis, the members of the War Cabinet, Chiefs of Staff and officials came to Chequers for lunch and discussions. On this occasion there was a special matter on which I needed an urgent decision.

I called together Willie Whitelaw , John Nott , Cecil Parkinson , Michael Havers , Terry Lewin , Admiral Fieldhouse and Sir Antony Acland , the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office. ( Francis Pym was in America). Admiral Fieldhouse told us that one of our submarines, HMS Conqueror, had been shadowing the Argentine cruiser, General Belgrano. The Belgrano was escorted by two destroyers. The cruiser itself had substantial fire power provided by 6 inch guns with a range of 13 miles and anti-aircraft missiles. We were advised that she might have been fitted with Exocet anti-ship missiles, and her two destroyer escorts were known to be carrying them. The whole group was sailing on the edge of the Exclusion Zone. We had received intelligence about the aggressive intentions of the Argentine fleet. There had been extensive air attacks on our ships the previous day and des>Admiral Woodward , in command of the Task Force, had every reason to believe that a full scale attack was developing. The Argentinian aircraft carrier, the 25 de Mayo, had been sighted some time earlier and we had agreed to change the rules of engagement to deal with the threat she posed. However, our submarine had lost contact with the carrier, which had slipped past it to the North. There was a strong possibility that Conqueror might also lose contact with the Belgrano group. Admiral Woodward had to come to a judgment about what to do with the Belgrano in the light of these circumstances. From all the information available, he concluded that the carrier and the Belgrano group were engaged in a classic pincer movement against the Task Force. It was clear to me what must be done to protect our forces, in the light of Admiral Woodward's concern and Admiral Fieldhouse's advice. We therefore decided that British forces should be able to attack any Argentine naval vessel on the same basis as agreed previously for the carrier.
Later we approved reinforcements for the Falklands which would be taken there in the QE2. It surprised me a little that the need for reinforcements had not been clear sooner. I asked whether it was really necessary or advisable to use this great ship and to put so many people in it, but as soon as I was told that it was necessary to get them there in time I gave my agreement. I was always concerned that we would not have sufficient men and equipment when the time came for the final battle and I was repeatedly struck by the fact that even such highly qualified professionals as advised us often under-estimated the requirements. We broke up still desperately worried that the aircraft carrier which could have done such damage to our vulnerable Task Force had not been found.
The necessary order conveying the change of rules of engagement was sent from Northwood to HMS Conqueror at 1.30 pm. In fact, it was not until after 5pm that Conqueror reported that she had received the order. The Belgrano was torpedoed and sunk just before 8 o'clock that evening. Our submarine headed away as quickly as possible. Wrongly believing that they would be the next targets, the Belgrano's escorts seem to have engaged in anti-submarine activities rather than rescuing its crew, some 321 of whom were lost - though initially the death toll was reported to be much higher. The ship's poor state of battle readiness greatly increased the casualties. Back in London we knew that the Belgrano had been hit, but it was some hours before we knew that she had sunk. A large amount of malicious and misleading nonsense was circulated at the time and long afterwards about the reasons why we sank the Belgrano. These allegations have been demonstrated to be without foundation. The decision to sink the Belgrano was taken for strictly military not political reasons: the claim that we were trying to undermine a promising peace initiative from Peru will not bear scrutiny. Those of us who took the decision at Chequers did not at that time know anything about the Peruvian proposals, which in any case closely resembled the Haig plan rejected by the Argentinians only days before. There was a clear military threat which we could not responsibly ignore. Moreover, subsequent events more than justified what was done. As a result of the devastating loss of the Belgrano, the Argentinian Navy - above all the carrier - went back to port and stayed there. Thereafter it posed no serious threat to the success of the taskforce, though of course we were not to know that this would be so at the time. The sinking of the Belgrano turned out to be one of the most decisive military actions of the war.


It is always terribly sad when either side in a conflict lose personnel but this was a war situation and sadly, this is what usually happens....both sides paid a heavy price in human losses.

[OneToughHerring]

Well I don't know about you, but on the planet I live on the British made a big show of sinking the Belgrano, they put it as the main headline in all the news, the politicians made big speaches about doing it and they did a celebration for the submarine that sank the cruiser and put that in all the news just in case anyone missed all the earlier publicity.
Perhaps in your strange world doing a big flag waving show announcing to everyone as often as possible "look what we did, we sank a ship:woot:" is wriggling from responsibility, but on this planet it is advertising your actions very publicly.

Yes...? Wriggling from responsibility can best be done with an aggressive media campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if the North Koreans printed their own version of "Gotcha!".

[Tribesman]

Yes...? Wriggling from responsibility can best be done with an aggressive media campaign.
So people wriggle out of responsibilty for their action by loudly telling everyone they are responsible for their actions:har::har::har::har::har:

In other news Jack Ruby denies responsibility for shooting Oswald by stating "I shot him", he backed up his defence by pointing to the wide media coverage of him shooting Oswald which is deemed the best way for him to wriggle out of responsibilty for his actions.

[OneToughHerring]

So people wriggle out of responsibilty for their action by loudly telling everyone they are responsible for their actions

Yes. The louder the better. Responsibility is not carried by printing big headlines on newspapers. Sorry to be the one to tell this to you since I see you obviously didn't know this.

[Oberon]

Yes. The louder the better. Responsibility is not carried by printing big headlines on newspapers. Sorry to be the one to tell this to you since I see you obviously didn't know this.

Who let you out? :hmmm:

[Platapus]

Yeah, because we have so much to benefit from doing this....:yawn:

And the North Koreans would have so much to benefit from doing this?????

[OneToughHerring]

Who let you out? :hmmm:

What, you're yet another enemy of free speech?

[Platapus]

The flash light is an old trick to quickly center your weapon on a target while firing from the hip. Put the bad guy in the center of the light and pull the trigger.

Plus shining that light, and it is a bright one, might disorient the bad guy in to hesitating for a split second more, which is just enough time for a three round burst to hit his or her chest/head.

[Tribesman]

Sorry to be the one to tell this to you since I see you obviously didn't know this.
:har::har::har::har::har:
Perhaps you just don't know what responsibilty means.

[OneToughHerring]

:har::har::har::har::har:
Perhaps you just don't know what responsibilty means.

How about you enlighten us all, oh beholder of eternal knowledge. What exactly is responsibility?

[Oberon]

What, you're yet another enemy of free speech?

Aren't we all in one way or another, and who is to judge what is free speech and what is disinformation?

[Schroeder]

And the North Koreans would have so much to benefit from doing this?????
Maybe they wanted to blackmail Seoul into giving them more aid.
"You want peace? Then give us stuff. Remember, you don't want war, do you?"

I think the North knows very well that no one is interested in a full scale war against them.
Or maybe they just had to show the world again that they are still there. Or just a publicity stunt for Kim's son or whatever.

I guess the North has definitely more to gain from that than the South. Especially considering that no one who is sane in the South could possibly want to engage the North, defeat it and be reunited with an economical wreck.

[XabbaRus]

Going to Belgrano again. What do you actually mean OTH about the UK dodging responsibility?

Maggie admitted she ordered the sinking. The UK believed and still believe it was a legitimate target.

You really must explain, I am curious.

[Schroeder]

Going to Belgrano again. What do you actually mean OTH about the UK dodging responsibility?

Maggie admitted she ordered the sinking. The UK believed and still believe it was a legitimate target.

You really must explain, I am curious.
Even the captain of the Belgrano said that it was a legitimate action.

In addition, the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo, has testified that the attack was legitimate (as did the Argentine government in 1994)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano#Legal_situation

[OneToughHerring]

Well I'm still waiting for tribesman's definition of responsibility.

If responsibility is just claiming "we did it" then it's a pretty narrow definition of the concept.

[Jimbuna]

Going to Belgrano again. What do you actually mean OTH about the UK dodging responsibility?

Maggie admitted she ordered the sinking. The UK believed and still believe it was a legitimate target.

You really must explain, I am curious.

Here you go Xabba....further evidence of Her Majesty's former First Minister and leader of the Government of the day admitting the 'responsibility' for the course of events:

On May 1, 1982, Admiral Juan Lombardo ordered all Argentine naval units to seek out the British task force around the Falklands and launch a “massive attack” the following day. The Belgrano, which was outside the exclusion zone to the north, was ordered south. Lombardo’s signal was intercepted by British Intelligence. As a result Mrs Thatcher and her War Cabinet, meeting at Chequers the following day, agreed to a request from Admiral Sir Terence Lewin, the Chief of the Defence Staff, to alter the rules of engagement and allow an attack on the Belgrano outside the exclusion zone.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article537842.ece

A further insight, explaining some of the fog of war at the time:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article537203.ece

The Belgrano was indeed going to attack The British Task Force:


Officials and ministers have always insisted that, far from heading home, the Belgrano was sailing west to a point outside the exclusion zone from which it was to attack.
Earlier this year the ship's captain, Hector Bonzo, admitted that the Belgrano's decision to sail away from the Task Force on the morning of 2 May was only a temporary manoeuvre.
"Our mission ... wasn't just to cruise around on patrol but to attack,'' Captain Bonzo said in a television interview in May. "When they gave us the authorisation to use our weapons, if necessary, we had to be prepared to attack. Our people were completely trained. I would say we were anxious to pull the trigger.''
In 1994 the Argentine government dropped its claim that the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, its defence ministry conceding that it was "a legal act of war''.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/belgrano-ordered-to-attack-british-ships-on-day-before-sinking-secret-report-reveals-577867.html

[XabbaRus]

Well I'm still waiting for tribesman's definition of responsibility.

If responsibility is just claiming "we did it" then it's a pretty narrow definition of the concept.

Well that pretty much is it isn't it. What would you have liked the UK to do.
Oh yes we sank your warship. Oh we will also compensate all the family members of crew who died?

[Molon Labe]

On conspiracy theories: I'm starting to become aware that Koreans actually have reason to buy into them. Apparently they had a rather extreme right-wing government for some time that lied to them frequently and even falsely accused demonstrators as being DPRK spies. Unfortunately, when you squander your credibility...people look for reasons not to believe you.

On the Belgrano: I guess we're talking about the difference between admitting responsibility and taking responsibility, which I suppose would mean paying reparations of some sort. But why would you compare the two situations? There was never any basis to demand reparations for the Belgrano because there was a shooting war on at the time. Plus, reparations never get paid voluntarily, someone has to force the (usually defeated) party to pay. Will the DPRK be forced to pay reparations? Probably not, but at least there's a case to demand them at the UN and there may be ways to seize the funds to do it.

[Tribesman]

Well I'm still waiting for tribesman's definition of responsibility.

Use any dictionary you want, it is after all a rather simple word in any of its applications.
Or alternatively since you appear to have a rather unique version of the English language can you define the word "responsibility" as you wish it to mean.

[scudhawk]

Sometimes a dictionary might be useful to avoid unnessesary arguments.

According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary :
Responsibility

1 : the quality or state of being responsible: as a : moral, legal, or mental accountability b : reliability, trustworthiness
2 : something for which one is responsible : burden <has neglected his responsibilities>

Responsible

1 a : liable to be called on to answer b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2) : being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c : liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : trustworthy b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
3 : marked by or involving responsibility or accountability <responsible financial policies> <a responsible job>
4 : politically answerable; especially : required to submit to the electorate if defeated by the legislature —used especially of the British cabinet


So, when you using the word according to the Blue definition, UK has 'responsibility' for the sinking of General Belgrano because Royal Navy submarine torpedoed her, 'being the cause or explanation' of that event. However, UK admitted that Her Majesty's Ship sinked the Argentina cruiser, so it is clear that there was no 'wriggling'.

If you use the the word according to the Black definitions, UK has no 'responsibility' at the first place, because she was at war with Argentina and General Belgrano was legitimate target. UK is neither 'liable to be called on to answer', 'liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent', nor 'liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties'.

Since North and South Korea are in a state of armistice, There is huge difference between the sinking of Cheonan and of General Belgrano.

[OneToughHerring]

Sometimes a dictionary might be useful to avoid unnessesary arguments.

According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary :


So, when you using the word according to the Blue definition, UK has 'responsibility' for the sinking of General Belgrano because Royal Navy submarine torpedoed her, 'being the cause or explanation' of that event. However, UK admitted that Her Majesty's Ship sinked the Argentina cruiser, so it is clear that there was no 'wriggling'.

Depends who you ask from. The Argentinians will give you a different view on the matter.

If you use the the word according to the Black definitions, UK has no 'responsibility' at the first place, because she was at war with Argentina and General Belgrano was legitimate target. UK is neither 'liable to be called on to answer', 'liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent', nor 'liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties'.

Since North and South Korea are in a state of armistice, There is huge difference between the sinking of Cheonan and of General Belgrano.I would say that the Korean war was at best a stalemate and both sides see themselves as the winners and thus able to act like the winner of a war. Both see themselves legimate to define what, among other things, "responsibility" in conjunction to foreign policy issues and military matters means. Just like the UK sees itself fit to call the Belgrano / Falklands - issue dealt with, although it's not.

[Tribesman]

Depends who you ask from. The Argentinians will give you a different view on the matter.

Since even by a stretch of your attempt at redefinition of "responsibility" the only Argentinian view that could possibly matter is that of the government, courts or military. All three have been cited here already on that subject shooting down your rather lame effort.

Just like the UK sees itself fit to call the Belgrano / Falklands - issue dealt with, although it's not.
So not only an attempt to redefine, now an attempt to rewrite history for good measure.

[OneToughHerring]

Since even by a stretch of your attempt at redefinition of "responsibility" the only Argentinian view that could possibly matter is that of the government, courts or military. All three have been cited here already on that subject shooting down your rather lame effort.


So not only an attempt to redefine, now an attempt to rewrite history for good measure.

I'm not trying to re-write history, I am merely stating facts.

[Tribesman]

I'm not trying to re-write history, I am merely stating facts.
I think you have a problem understanding the word "fact" too.
You ridiculously claim the issue has not been dealt with, yet people have posted material from all the relevant parties dealing with it.
It has been dealt with in detail from all angles many years ago.
The fact that you are unable to accept the plain truths speaks volumes about your thought process or lack thereof.

[OneToughHerring]

I think you have a problem understanding the word "fact" too.
You ridiculously claim the issue has not been dealt with, yet people have posted material from all the relevant parties dealing with it.
It has been dealt with in detail from all angles many years ago.
The fact that you are unable to accept the plain truths speaks volumes about your thought process or lack thereof.

Just because you see things from a UK perspective doesn't mean that the rest of the world doesn't exist.

[Tribesman]

Just because you see things from a UK perspective doesn't mean that the rest of the world doesn't exist.
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
After you have obtained a dictionary can you put an atlas on your list of things for santa to bring you at Christmas.

[OneToughHerring]

:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
After you have obtained a dictionary can you put an atlas on your list of things for santa to bring you at Christmas.

From what I hear the Ulster boys kicked some fear of god into you lot, haven't heard a peep from you since. So I'm actually right in what I said. :DL

You see the Ulster boys took responsibility, that's why they won and you guys lost.

[Tribesman]

Have you ever considered visiting planet earth?

[OneToughHerring]

Have you ever considered visiting planet earth?

See, this is how it is. If you guys ever want to be known as something other then UK's little b****, you're going to have to shape up and I mean seriously. That is of course presuming you're not happy being UK's little b**** which I think you are. :har:

[Dowly]

I think OTH finally realised that he has reached an deadend in the Belgrano discussion so here comes the baiting. :O:

[OneToughHerring]

I think OTH finally realised that he has reached an deadend in the Belgrano discussion so here comes the baiting. :O:

No, I'm just surprised at the narrow view tribesman has on the issue.

[Dowly]

No, I'm just surprised at the narrow view tribesman has on the issue.

What exactly is the problem? Could you give us quotes or something? As have been said to you there's lots of references posted in this thread how Belgrano was, from both UK's and Argentina's POV a legit target. I am confused. :doh:

[Jimbuna]

Hope nobody minds if I take a seat.

All this globe trotting, Korea to the South Atlantic then back to the UK can be a tad tiring :DL

*checks map for locations of previous British armed conflict*

Crikey! we could end up just about any place on the planet next :hmmm:

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif

[OneToughHerring]

For the entertainment of Jimbuna I will post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ11b0_roU

[Tribesman]

I think OTH finally realised that he has reached an deadend in the Belgrano discussion so here comes the baiting.
Come off it, for him to realise it would require some sort of rational cognitive function.
Since there has been no evidence to suggest its presence there can be little possibility that Herring has ever realised anything at all.

Crikey! we could end up just about any place on the planet next
But which planet Jim? Its earth jim but not as He knows it:up:

[Reece]

Hope nobody minds if I take a seat.
:hmmm:

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif
Damn Jim that looks good, can I have some please?:yep:

[OneToughHerring]

What exactly is the problem? Could you give us quotes or something? As have been said to you there's lots of references posted in this thread how Belgrano was, from both UK's and Argentina's POV a legit target. I am confused. :doh:

Just to reiterate, I commented about the concept of responsibility and how fluid it often is especially in international politics. I fail to see what exactly you don't understand? That the Argentinians took offence about the sinking of the Belgrano?

[Oberon]

For the entertainment of Jimbuna I will post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ11b0_roU



Aaah Ireland...not so far to go...thank god for that, I was expecting you to pick Hong Kong or Australia.

Well, while we're here, might as well watch some more videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Sllcae5aE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efgGN_PWS48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOXKfW8mdxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vtOV6HPz90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDI1DaYYzAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44SDTxUskio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNTUrvkEMnQ

Oh...and I'll post this too...not that it'll sink in through that concrete skull:

Responsibility for killing
Republican paramilitary groups 2057
Loyalist paramilitary groups 1019
British security forces 363
Persons unknown 82
Irish security forces 5
Total 3526
So yeah...those terrible British...killing ten percent of the total casualties of the troubles...terrible British. :nope:

[Weiss Pinguin]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh283/madamkelly/Winehouse/ScarJo_popcorn.gif

This should be good.

[Oberon]

This should be good.

Save some for me, will ya? :haha:

[TLAM Strike]

Save some for me, will ya? :haha:

you can have the popcorn I'll have her... ;)

[OneToughHerring]

Just let me know when the war is on so I can tune in to see North Korea whoop your butts. :rock::DL

[Weiss Pinguin]

you can have the popcorn I'll have her... ;)
Nuh-uh, I called her first!

[TLAM Strike]

Nuh-uh, I called her first!
We'll split her, you take the top half and I'll take the bottom half. Maybe we can squeeze Oberon in somewhere...

[Weiss Pinguin]

How about you take the back half and I take the front half? ;)

[Jimbuna]

For the entertainment of Jimbuna I will post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ11b0_roU

http://www.schule.de/englisch/cal/bloody-2.jpg

Good God!! Your at it again!!

How long have you been out of the brig?

This thread was informative and entertaining in parts until you jump in from left of field @ #315

Well if the Brits could wriggle themselves from responsiblity when it came to the sinking of the Belgrano it shouldn't be too difficult for NK either.

What the hell had Britain and the Belgrano to do with the price of eggs up to this point?

I see a moderator coming in here @ #329 asking you to clarify your comment.

Now you start 'wriggling' because numerous contributors prove your comments to be wrong.

Oh look, The same moderator reappears @ #333

Well that pretty much is it isn't it. What would you have liked the UK to do.
Oh yes we sank your warship. Oh we will also compensate all the family members of crew who died?

No need to interpret that one for you....or is there?

Suprise....in you pop @ #343 casting your net wider to lessen the impact your previously flawed opinion had on this thread.

@ #343 your true twisted, sectarian and bigotted attitude rears its ugly head in full view....you let your guard slip.

Once again we see your countryman come and give his viewpoint of how your behaving #346
I think OTH finally realised that he has reached an deadend in the Belgrano discussion so here comes the baiting

Again @ #348

What exactly is the problem? Could you give us quotes or something? As have been said to you there's lots of references posted in this thread how Belgrano was, from both UK's and Argentina's POV a legit target. I am confused.


Are you getting a sense of deja vu yet?

Groundhog day even?

Why did you feel you had to come in @ #350 and post that graphically disturbing picture? (the picture above).

Almost as bad as the fatal head shot you posted of President Kennedy IMO and not what people are accustomed to viewing here.

It would appear you never learned from recent mistakes here and are simply unable to or refuse to enter into challenging debate unless your viewpoint is agreed to by all parties.

Failing that you have a tendency to bury your head and rational reasoning in the sand and discount the weight of opinion and evidence which clearly shows how flawed your viepoint is.

Furthermore, you have an even greater disturbing tendency to publish distasteful images.

If you feel the need to spit your dummy out and are unable to act your age instead of your shoe size (chances are they both match anyway) I suggest you either refrain from posting in topics you end up escalating needlessly or you hit the report post button.

Far better I receive an infraction if Neal considers it warranted.

I would hate to see some other poor unfortunate punished on behalf of someone such as yourself.

Quite frankly...you bring out the worst in me...you had no cause to single me out in #350 when I had made no personal reference to yourself.

<insert your own impolite signing off terminology here>

[OneToughHerring]

Boo hoo hoo, cry me a river.

[Oberon]

We'll split her, you take the top half and I'll take the bottom half. Maybe we can squeeze Oberon in somewhere...

:o I think I'll just take the popcorn and be somewhere over here...

[Oberon]

Just let me know when the war is on so I can tune in to see North Korea whoop your butts. :rock::DL

A big fan of Kim Jong-ils regime are you?

[OneToughHerring]

A big fan of Kim Jong-ils regime are you?

In the global pantheon of dictators Kim Jong-Il ranks well below the leaders of US and UK.

[Oberon]

In the global pantheon of dictators Kim Jong-Il ranks well below the leaders of US and UK.

He does? Funny...I don't recall starving, or being beaten up by secret police, conscripted into the peoples army, nor being cut off from any information from the outside world. In fact, if our leaders were worse than Kim, I wouldn't even be talking to you.

[OneToughHerring]

He does? Funny...I don't recall starving, or being beaten up by secret police, conscripted into the peoples army, nor being cut off from any information from the outside world. In fact, if our leaders were worse than Kim, I wouldn't even be talking to you.

Well then stop starting wars of aggression around the planet then and causing millions of casualties. There are prisons in North Korea? Funny, what do you call those things in the US and UK where they put mostly poor non-whites? Oh yea prisons.

We have military service too. Don't blame the hard-as-nails North Koreans because the average Brit or Yank is a disgusting fatbody who is unfit for military service.

[gimpy117]

In the global pantheon of dictators Kim Jong-Il ranks well below the leaders of US and UK.


ha ha that's a joke. at least we elect our leader and don't allow him to have office for like 15 years due to a loop hole. and we happen to have electricty and are not starving (quite the opposite actually.)

and you honestly think you'll stomp us?? :har: wow. We spend more on defense per year than North Korea has total GDP

[OneToughHerring]

ha ha that's a joke. at least we elect our leader and don't allow him to have office for like 30 years due to a loop hole. and we happen to have electricty and are not starving (quite the opposite actually.)

and you honestly think you'll stomp us?? :har: wow. We spend more on defense per year than North Korea has total GDP

Dude you guys are keeling over from obesity and stuff. If it wasn't for poor ghetto blacks you wouldn't have any footsoldiers.

[Dowly]

If it wasn't for poor ghetto blacks you wouldn't have any footsoldiers.

LMAO! :haha:

Dare I ask it.... oh what the heck; You have a source for that? :88)

[gimpy117]

Dude you guys are keeling over from obesity and stuff. If it wasn't for poor ghetto blacks you wouldn't have any footsoldiers.

at least were not starving to death. :yeah: Id like to see North Korea win when there is no food to eat.

[Onkel Neal]

In the global pantheon of dictators Kim Jong-Il ranks well below the leaders of US and UK.


:DL All I can say is, LOL.

[OneToughHerring]

LMAO! :haha:

Dare I ask it.... oh what the heck; You have a source for that? :88)

What would you know about the military, you ain't going.

[gimpy117]

What would you know about the military, you ain't going.


and what do you know about North Korea? you're obviously not from there... they dont have internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea)... or food (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine)... or freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea)... or electricity (http://doctorbulldog.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/northkorea-at-night.jpg)... or military equipment designed after the 70's (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/kpa-equipment.htm)...

[Dowly]

What would you know about the military, you ain't going.

Cornered rat tries to bite? :DL

[Weiss Pinguin]

Well then stop starting wars of aggression around the planet then and causing millions of casualties. There are prisons in North Korea? Funny, what do you call those things in the US and UK where they put mostly poor non-whites? Oh yea prisons.
If by most poor non-whites you mean convicted criminals and assorted others locked up temporarily, then yes those are what we call prisons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison). Incidentally, there are poor non-whites in prison. There are also rich and formerly rich non-whites, mostly poor whites, and rich and formerly rich whites. But who am I to inform you, obviously you have a great understanding of our justice system and the workings of daily American life.

@ Neal: Whatever you do, don't suspend OTH! This is too funny :rotfl2:

[OneToughHerring]

Cornered rat tries to bite? :DL

Stay home and play games gimpy boy, let me and others protect your lame ass. :DL

[Dowly]

Stay home and play games gimpy boy, let me and others protect your lame ass. :DL

Oh come on, try harder. Not biting just yet. :O:

[nikimcbee]

Wake me when we're talking about Korea again.:yawn:

Kimchi anybody?

[gimpy117]

Stay home and play games gimpy boy, let me and others protect your lame ass. :DL

funny thing is that's dowly you quoted. nice job reading there buddy! :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Cornered rat tries to bite? :DL

Stay home and play games gimpy boy, let me and others protect your lame ass. :DL

Oh come on, try harder. Not biting just yet. :O:

I shouldn't bother, in fact I'm amazed at the level of constraint your showing :yeah:

Never forget...


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9652/wizardbehindcurtain.jpg

[Happy Times]

I can say that during war OTH would be locked up or maybe just shot by his squad/platoon leader, saves the paperwork. :yeah:

[Dowly]

I shouldn't bother, in fact I'm amazed at the level of constraint your showing :yeah:

I've found it's much funnier this way. :O:

[OneToughHerring]

I can say that during war OTH would be locked up or maybe just shot by his squad/platoon leader, saves the paperwork. :yeah:

Dude you're welcome to take a shot, my gym has a boxing ring and you're welcome to try your luck any time.

[Jimbuna]

I've found it's much funnier this way. :O:

As much as it troubles me to admit it....I reckon your right :DL

Crack on :salute:

[Oberon]

Well then stop starting wars of aggression around the planet then and causing millions of casualties. There are prisons in North Korea? Funny, what do you call those things in the US and UK where they put mostly poor non-whites? Oh yea prisons.

We have military service too. Don't blame the hard-as-nails North Koreans because the average Brit or Yank is a disgusting fatbody who is unfit for military service.

So...if we're a disgusting fatbody who is unfit for military service, how are we starting wars of aggression around the planet?
So, you're saying that Finland is like North Korea, in that it has prisons and military service? :hmmm:

[OneToughHerring]

So...if we're a disgusting fatbody who is unfit for military service, how are we starting wars of aggression around the planet?
So, you're saying that Finland is like North Korea, in that it has prisons and military service? :hmmm:

A small, quickly diminishing percentage of Brits are able to make the grade when it comes to military service. For the more special troops even less. The wars have depleted your mercenary military and also the government treasury. When your money runs out and you're unable to hire mercenaries, your basically s*** out of luck buddy.

Even if a military service can be difficult for those not used to harsh conditions and military dicipline, it's still a good way to build a vast force pool to get needed fighters from.

[Oberon]

A small, quickly diminishing percentage of Brits are able to make the grade when it comes to military service. For the more special troops even less. The wars have depleted your mercenary military and also the government treasury. When your money runs out and you're unable to hire mercenaries, your basically s*** out of luck buddy.

Even if a military service can be difficult for those not used to harsh conditions and military dicipline, it's still a good way to build a vast force pool to get needed fighters from.

And what would you have us do? :hmmm:

[Dowly]

I think OTH forgets the small little fact that recruits' are in bad shape here too and it gets worse every year.

[Weiss Pinguin]

I think OTH forgets the small little fact that recruits' are in bad shape here too and it gets worse every year.
Obviously that info is wrong and you need to check your sources again ;)

[Dowly]

Obviously that info is wrong and you need to check your sources again ;)

You didn't go to the OTH land did you? It's all upside-down there!! :wah:

[Oberon]

Finland Finland Uber Alles! :salute: :03:

[Dowly]

Finland Finland Uber Alles! :salute: :03:

Nooo, not that one! The OTH land, you know the one you need to eat pink mushrooms to get to? :O:

EDIT: Or was it to see pink elephants. :hmmm: Aaaanyway.

[Jimbuna]

I think OTH forgets the small little fact that recruits' are in bad shape here too and it gets worse every year.

Too bloody true....I'm going out for a curry on Wednesday with some of my ex colleagues, two of them are in 42 Commando part of 3 Commando Brigade (real bad a$$es) and they inform me over half of the entrants fail basic training and never get the elite green beret :nope:

[Oberon]

Too bloody true....I'm going out for a curry on Wednesday with some of my ex colleagues, two of them are in 42 Commando part of 3 Commando Brigade (real bad a$$es) and they inform me over half of the entrants fail basic training and never get the elite green beret :nope:

It's a cushy society we live in Jim, most people haven't had to go through half the stuff my grandfather went through before and during him joining 45 Commando.

Oh, and Jim, buy those guys a pint for me or at least give them my thanks. Got a lot of respect for the Royal Marines :salute:

[Jimbuna]

It's a cushy society we live in Jim, most people haven't had to go through half the stuff my grandfather went through before and during him joining 45 Commando.

Oh, and Jim, buy those guys a pint for me or at least give them my thanks. Got a lot of respect for the Royal Marines :salute:

I'll be sure to do that...if the buggas stop sober long enough to understand what I'm saying. :DL

A couple of birthdays ago they were part of the gang that stripped me in the town centre and handcuffed me to a 'fixed' litter bin :stare:

[Oberon]

I'll be sure to do that...if the buggas stop sober long enough to understand what I'm saying. :DL

A couple of birthdays ago they were part of the gang that stripped me in the town centre and handcuffed me to a 'fixed' litter bin :stare:

:har::har:
Sounds about right! I think the trick'll be to try and get as pissed as them so that you're both speaking rubbish and understanding it :yep: :yeah:

[gimpy117]

well all that aside..our recruits will do better than the half starved N. Korean troops running around with weapons that were used in Stalingrad. Yes, I said Stalingrad. The N. Korean army still uses DP machine guns and Ppsh 41's

[Dowly]

well all that aside..our recruits will do better than the half starved N. Korean troops running around with weapons that were used in Stalingrad. Yes, I said Stalingrad. The N. Korean army still uses DP machine guns and Ppsh 41's

I'm pretty sure they have more modern weapons than that.

As for starving army, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) most of the food in N.Korea goes to the military. :hmmm:

[gimpy117]

I'm pretty sure they have more modern weapons than that.

As for starving army, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) most of the food in N.Korea goes to the military. :hmmm:

True...but imagine a full scale war when all they food they get from the outside goes bye bye.

and apparently they really have a mixed bag of guns. anywhere from korean war relics to semi modern guns. But i can't imagine they have anything much better than an AK-47/74 knock off

[Jimbuna]

:har::har:
Sounds about right! I think the trick'll be to try and get as pissed as them so that you're both speaking rubbish and understanding it :yep: :yeah:

LOL...never give away the advantage....the girls simply love em at the night clubs...tatooos and all :D

[Oberon]

Meanwhile:

http://i45.tinypic.com/a5djwk.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/263di13.jpg

South Korean Army tanks cross a river during their river-crossing exercise in preparation against possible North Korean hostilities on the Bukhan river in Hwacheon, about 20 km (12 miles) south of the demilitarized zone separating the two Koreas, northeast of Seoul, May 31, 2010.

[Raptor1]

True...but imagine a full scale war when all they food they get from the outside goes bye bye.

and apparently they really have a mixed bag of guns. anywhere from korean war relics to semi modern guns. But i can't imagine they have anything much better than an AK-47/74 knock off

I'm pretty the North Korean army is mostly equipped with semi-modern weaponry. It's reasonable to expect to see the equivilants of the AKM, T-62 and MiG-21 as the mainstay of the KPA, with some more modern equipment and some older.

[Madox58]

Yes, the Army and other Armed forces get better and more food.
They also are armed quite well.
But I'd say they would fair almost as well as Saddam's Army did
in a full out conflict.

They rattle sabers sure.
And given a local engagement area?
Might stand a chance to win.
Just as Saddam hoped for.

They know full well the U.S. can fly in and bomb them at will with
full cloaking technology.
They also know we know exactly where to hit them.
So when you know your arse can be whipped in a day or two?

You run your mouth but never actually do anything.
North Korea is one of the Masters at Running Mouth!

I think we should treat them as we did Lebonan in the '80's
Drop a few 'Hello bombs' on them.

[Oberon]

I think we should treat them as we did Lebonan in the '80's
Drop a few 'Hello bombs' on them.

That's all well and good until China drops a 'Hello bomb' on the economy...and you start buying bread at $400 a loaf... :hmmm:

[Madox58]

You place to much trust in China.
Almost as if you fear them.
They depend on us much more then we depend on them.

[Jimbuna]

You place to much trust in China.
Almost as if you fear them.
They depend on us much more then we depend on them.

Pretty good point....when national security is weighed against political/financial security....the options are simply 'black or white'.

[Oberon]

Pretty good point....when national security is weighed against political/financial security....the options are simply 'black or white'.

True, true, but I wouldn't tangle with the DPRK without seeing what way China would swing first. The United States cannot handle a war with China as well as the war on terror, the general public just wouldn't take it.

[Madox58]

We need not wage a armed war with china.
Merely shut down all imports.
Sure it would cause problems here for awhile.
But seeing how much China depends on what we imort,
seeing U.S. Companies stepping in to replace lost imports?
Employment going up here?
Other companies from foriegn countries worried about what the heck we are doing?

You want a Global War?
Let's do it in the economics sector.
If the U.S.of A. was not THE market?

Most systerms would not be what they are today.

[Happy Times]

Yes, the Army and other Armed forces get better and more food.
They also are armed quite well.
But I'd say they would fair almost as well as Saddam's Army did
in a full out conflict.

They rattle sabers sure.
And given a local engagement area?
Might stand a chance to win.
Just as Saddam hoped for.

They know full well the U.S. can fly in and bomb them at will with
full cloaking technology.
They also know we know exactly where to hit them.
So when you know your arse can be whipped in a day or two?

You run your mouth but never actually do anything.
North Korea is one of the Masters at Running Mouth!

I think we should treat them as we did Lebonan in the '80's
Drop a few 'Hello bombs' on them.

They could collapse in days but if they really have the will to fight they could be a pain in the ass, Saddams troops didn even make an effort.

They dont have any way to go offensive but they have good geography for defence and they are prepared.

Better comparison would be Serbia, NATO didnt want to go on ground because they knew there would be casualties.

They have most of their forces within 100km from the DMZ so an pincer from ground in the West and both ground and sea from the East could create a massive encirclement.

They cant move anything when the shooting starts, because they cant protect those movements, so they are stuck to static defence.

It looks that there are two routes to Pjongjang, from Kaesong in the West and from Wonsan in the East.

If US provides their Intel, Air Force, Navy and some Marines the ROK forces could pull this off.:hmmm:

[Oberon]

That's fair game, but I'm talking more about what happens if US/ROK forces enter into North Korea like they did back in 1950. If China rolls in from the north, it's not going to be pretty. :nope:

[Madox58]

Thing is?
You don't invade!
Cut the economics and allow the whole system to collapse.
Blockade and cut the finances.
Sieze any Company on Americain Soil and Nationalize it.
5 billion screaming Chinese means nothing if they can't cross the Pacific.
If they try?
We sink them.
They Launch missles?
We return fire.
It's not pretty but it will happen sooner or later.
I'd prefer sooner.
Weapons only get better with age.

[Oberon]

That's fair enough, but in the mean time what do you do about the PLA forces pushing the US/ROK forces back towards Pusan?
China won't invade America...that's the stuff of science fiction and fantasy. They don't want a Korean war, they aren't ready just yet, but likewise I highly doubt they will stand by and let the United States destroy North Korea.

[gimpy117]

well yes...Mig 21's were a match for the phantom...but that was two generations ago. We built the F-15 to fight those fighters and the mig-29
their tanks were also designed to fight the M-60 tanks...and we now have the Abrams.

[Schroeder]

Thing is?
You don't invade!
Cut the economics and allow the whole system to collapse.
Blockade and cut the finances.

I'm not sure which system would collapse earlier.:hmmm:
I believe you are borrowing quite a lot of money from China. With that money gone....

[Takeda Shingen]

Thing is?
You don't invade!
Cut the economics and allow the whole system to collapse.
Blockade and cut the finances.
Sieze any Company on Americain Soil and Nationalize it.
5 billion screaming Chinese means nothing if they can't cross the Pacific.
If they try?
We sink them.
They Launch missles?
We return fire.
It's not pretty but it will happen sooner or later.
I'd prefer sooner.
Weapons only get better with age.

And all China does is freeze our assets. They own most of our debt, you know.

[Skybird]

Thing is?
You don't invade!
Cut the economics and allow the whole system to collapse.
Blockade and cut the finances.
Sieze any Company on Americain Soil and Nationalize it.
5 billion screaming Chinese means nothing if they can't cross the Pacific.
If they try?
We sink them.
They Launch missles?
We return fire.
It's not pretty but it will happen sooner or later.
I'd prefer sooner.
Weapons only get better with age.

You massively underestimatwe them, especially their naval capacity which is developing rapidly and already denies one-sided dominace to the US Navy in regional waters. Also, like Takeda said: China can hurt the US much more economically than the US can economically hurt China - and very, very significantly so. What would mean moderate financial pain for them (from which they can recover) - would mean financial and economic collapse for the US.

A naval war offshore Asian coasts is an open thing at best. And the longer it would last, the more the balance would shift in favour of the Chinese.

[Skybird]

I'm not sure which system would collapse earlier.:hmmm:
I believe you are borrowing quite a lot of money from China. With that money gone....
Or Chinese-held US bonds being put on the market for sale simultaneously... Doswjdania rodina!

[Platapus]

Or Chinese-held US bonds being put on the market for sale simultaneously... Doswjdania rodina!

Which would have zero effect on the value of the other T-bills held by the other nations of the world. The only effect of the Chinese short selling their US T-bills would be

1. China loses a lot of money
2. The US would have a harder time selling more T-bills until the Chinese run out of money/T-bills.

The reason US T-bills are such an attractive investment is because if their stability and fixed rate.

[CaptainHaplo]

A naval war offshore Asian coasts is an open thing at best. And the longer it would last, the more the balance would shift in favour of the Chinese.

Sky - sorry mate but I have to ask - what is your basis for thinking this? If anything - the opposite is true. A war of attrition favors the US - when dealing with military terms. If your talking "the home front" and the resistance to any war growing - then yes I could see your point. But from a purely military stance, a drawn out conflict would be disasterous for China. Time - is the ally of the US in an Asian sea conflict. The more time we have, the more time we have to put resources (aka carrier groups) into the area. One "cold war" CVBG (which doctrine required 4 carriers) would decimate the Chinese ability to wage war at sea.

[darius359au]

Don't know what to make of this ,is it just a propaganda "We will beat you if you attack" message to the ROK and the West or is it something for internal consumption "The class enemy is going to attack us but we will win" type thing?
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/7334307/north-koreas-kim-enjoys-war-themed-sing-song/

[Skybird]

Sky - sorry mate but I have to ask - what is your basis for thinking this?

Published assessements by the US navy especially on the submarine environment that we have had in this forum two years ago or so, also the mosaic of occasional information from various defence sources: online, TV, papers. And last: simply reason.

When the US Navy cannot guarantee anymore that it can dominate the submarine environment, than that is a major message. You Americans tend to underestimate the Chinese, militarily and also: in soft powers like finance policy (where they are simply superior to you). Historically, you have had reason to do so, but the Chinese have already done a remarkable job in neutralising most of these reasons. Where you have lost diplomatic influence in the world, they have taken over, and even went beyong it. Soft powers is something America does not understand much of, but the Chinese are masters at it. The reasons that were valid in the past, must no longer be valid in the present. But especially the military is prone to not understanding this and sticking to the glory of the old ways. The French got brutally lectured the hard way that they were wrong last time they made that mistake: the Maginot line, designed by ideas from WWI, rendered meaningless by ideas of the future war: armoured high mobility.

I promise you that in the forseeable future you will see your relations with Japan suffering in that meaning that Japan already has started to change it's relations with China to better arrange itself with the Chinese. That is also a cultural mentality thing. Where Westerners choose confrontation (and in military things: rapid decision in decisive battles), Easterners think in terms of arranging with the stronger neighbour ( a philosophic ideal), and militarily: avoiding decisive battles with a high risk to end up in an all-or-nothing-at-all situation, thinking instead in terms of conflicts of attrition where the risk of putting all chances on the table is avoided but the slow but lasting exhaustion of the enemy is being sought. The distant future in that region most likely is one that more or less excludes or minimises the US. Not in all the pacific, but in those strategically important bodies of water that borders to the Asian landmass, contain resources of interst, and vital sea lanes.

Seen that way, I tend to believe that the US really needs the conflict with North Korea: as a backup security for legitimising it's presence in the future, when diplomatic ties already have started to weaken. Without NK, in a distant future the Asian states will simply smile and compliment you out of the door. I even go one step further and predict that even Australia will loosen it's ties to the British tradition, and finally understand that Indonesia and China and Japan are neighbours much closer to it than distant Britain. It seems they have already started to distance themselves from that British heritage that ebfore they held up so high that some times it was said the Aussies try to be more British than the Brits themselves: the "foreigner's desease" in a foreign country - trying to make the alien place a bit like the home one has left behind. But Australia seems to realise that it is time to finally arrive in the place where it now is: the Asian sphere of influence.

China has proven to be a very quiet but very patient player with a long foresight that Wetsern policy-makers can only dream of these days. Compared to that, hectic America is a lion roaring loud in impatience and thinking cause and effect mujst be linked by just a minimum of time - or better: why any delay at all, hm? I want my steak, and I want it now...!?

We will also get used to a Chinese action group patrolling vital see lanes and critical hotspots like the Persoian Gulf. It its in their vital interest to do things like that, and they have the means and the knowhow to realise it.

[Happy Times]

We will also get used to a Chinese action group patrolling vital see lanes and critical hotspots like the Persoian Gulf. It its in their vital interest to do things like that, and they have the means and the knowhow to realise it.

When they get the logistics from China to Burma ready, they are building railways and roads trough the mountains, we can expect major naval base rising there.

This will remove the Singapore and Indonesian straits as a necessity for passage to China from Middle East and Africa.

This will also probably put China and India in a naval race that China will win.

[Platapus]

And all China does is freeze our assets. They own most of our debt, you know.

about 12% actually

[Oberon]

about 12% actually

How much of a wobble would 12% cause though, in a time when a computer error can break a stock market almost to its knees? Furthermore, would the American public be willing to pay the cost of a war against China?
Not unless China struck first I would imagine. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

If somebody would throw US bonds representing 12% of total US debts on the market, that would be the equivalent to a core meltdown. When the debts were still at around 9-10 trillion before Obama, experts usually said that the critical mass would already be reached at just 5%. the debt level now has passed 13 trillion, and is expected to reach 18 trillion within the next 3-4 years.

With 12%, the Chinese can do more than just symbolic damage. They can not only hurt - they can kill. Also, china is the world's biggest netto owner of dollars, in 2009 holding reserves of over 2 trillion - while the US held no real dollar reserves, only dollar debts. Imagine what happens when the chiense would sell dollars on large scale. The world would collapse, and the Us has no fianncial power left to do anythign against that. It is at China's good willingness and mercy.

The Fed has printed much money in the past months. This means a loss of real value for the Chinese - a massive loss. They are angry about this (who wouldn't if being robbed of many billions), and they will not ignore it. That is the reason why last year they have started to demand louder than ever before that the global economy should switch to a different lead currency.

One of the bad things with inflation is, just one of the many bad things, that in effect it is a dispossession of those holding reserves in that currency. And since American economy can not back up the additional money it pumps into the market by real values and economic potency, it is already creating the next bubble that will burst, inevitably.

[Platapus]

If somebody would throw US bonds representing 12% of total US debts on the market, that would be the equivalent to a core meltdown.

Please explain how dumping fixed rate bills on the market would be a core meltdown.

The price of the T-bills does not change after purchase.

As I wrote before, if China were to dump their T-bills on the market at a discount, it would only result in China losing a lot of money. Someone else would buy those bonds and that would mean that our money would go to another country other than China. It would not hurt us, it would hurt China.

It is not the same as if China were to dump gold on the market which would affect the value of our gold holdings. If China really wants to hurt us, it won't be through T-Bills. :nope:

[Skybird]

A massive sale of bonds like that, all at once, would destabilize the markets, to put it extremely mildly. Psychology. It would send the message: US bonds are worth nothing anymore, we do not trust them, so try to get rid of them en masse therefore.

also, the Us would not be able to sell new bonds. No income anymore, all of a sudden. So far the Us pays with bonds. But then, the Us would be left with having nothing that is accepted for trade/payment anymore. Sayonara. Good-bye. This is it. Finis. Switch off the lights. Adieu.

And others would follow like the lemmings in trying to dump their US bonds. Those 12% of total bonds being for sale, would be followed by most of the other bond holders selling theirs as well - if for no other reason than to get rid of them before they lose massively in value due to the Chinese have dumped theirs. Like flooding the market with new money devalues a currency, excessively flooding the market with bonds devalues these bonds, and casts a sentence of maximum mistrust. Mistrust leads tp fears for losses. Fears for losses leads to sales.

I again remind of finacial anaylssts saying that it does not even need 12% of global US bonds exiosting being sold in one rush to trigger that chain reaction: 5% already would be enough - given the financial situation before Obama. It's like balöancing on a high wire: you do not need a push of many kiolograms in weight to destabilise the man on that wire, just tipping his shoulder softly already can make him fall down, even more so when he already is distracted by other problems like wind and a pole of uneven weight at the ends.

That is the reason why they want to enforce Greek (worthless) bonds being bought by european central banks and the ECB nevertheless. Economically and financially, it is against all reason and sanity, it means to lend money for securities worth nothing. It's about psychology.

These thoughts I did not originally author myself. Professionals did. But it does not need professional expertise to figure out these things about bonds.

Additionally, the Chinese dollar reserves: if they dump these at the same time and in one massive rush, panic will be perfect, starting a chain reaction. Not only will US bonds go over board, but the dollar will fall, too. China has more active dollar reserves lying ready on their shelves than the US has. The US shelves are empty, to be precise, they finance their living on tic - printing money uncovered (?) by real, material value (=nothing else but future debts due to inflation), and "paying" with more bonds.

If that is not ironic.

The chiense have the option to do all these things. If they really will do, is something different, but the decision is theirs, and is beyond American decision making. As a matter of fact, the chinese have silently, quitely began to reduce their dollar reserves since late 2008. Playing with the dollar fire apparently ha become too hot a game for their taste. Due to the irresponsible american finance policy and the consequential devaluing of their dollar reserves, they suffered damages ranging in the many billions. For every raise in the ammount printed dollars, let's say increasing by 10% of the former total ammount of dollars, the Chinese' accumulated dollar reserves lose around 10% in value, which translates into 200 billion in losses. Why america thought that the chinese would accept this to go on forever, is beyond me. From some point on even mutual trading ties between the US consumer and the Chinese producer cannot compensate for such losses anymore.

Welcome in the spiral. See you for implosion in the centre.

[Platapus]

And others would follow like the lemmings in trying to dump their US bonds.

Why?

US T-Bills are a very solid investment which is why it is the primary way the US garners international investment. We do not have problems selling our bonds. Countries are literally lining up waiting for new ones to be released.

Your fictional story was exciting and scary, but hardly realistic. :nope:

There are many ways the Chinese can hurt the US economy, but T-Bills is not the way they can do it.

[Skybird]

It'S not my story, I just repeat warnings of insiders and experts of the matter. If you do not believe that if somebody suddenly would try to get rid of his bonds representing 12% of all global US bonds, others would start worrying about the loss they then already would have suffered (bonds only are of value to you if you can sell them again, and where there is no customer anymore, you sit on your heaps of worthless paper), then okay, you are free to not believe so. But psychology mass effects at the stockmarkets work different. You probably have missed the hysteric up and down over even just rumours we have seen in the immediate past. US bonds are no solid securitx anymore.not with that desolate economic condition, that heap pf debts, that deficiatry budget - that total mess US fiances are. For US bonds, you simply pay money for getting nothing than just an inflationary printed, worthless piece of paper. The Chineses did buy them only to buy time - not becasue thy are so valuiable. They hoped that america would repair it'S econimic and ficnial system, and saw with growing frustration that instead the American answer only was to print more money, and print and print and print. Since the global fallout of the desastrous American finance policies arrived in the sdecond half of 2008, the chinese have lost much of their enthusiasm for US bonds, but have started to dump them. You are lucky that they export so many goods to the US else they already would have dropped you completely, probably. But they do not want to get payed with useless bonds anymore for which they not only cannot buy anything in return, but who loose of theoretic value constantly due to the irresponsible bonds- and money-printing by the Fed.

[CaptainHaplo]

The US is considering sending a carrier to the area.... If so, it will get real interesting real fast, because NK will have a real problem with its rhetoric with a floating city of destruction nearby......

[Oberon]

That's if the ROKs government can hold itself together long enough. The current leader has taken a hit in the polls:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10211824.stm

What with that and the Japan PM losing his position over the Okinawa base, the DPRK has scored two shots without even firing :doh:

[darius359au]

That's if the ROKs government can hold itself together long enough. The current leader has taken a hit in the polls:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10211824.stm

What with that and the Japan PM losing his position over the Okinawa base, the DPRK has scored two shots without even firing :doh:

Maybe its my nasty suspicious mind but, with the political problems in the ROK and Japan and before a carrier battle group shows up ,now would be a good time for the North to do whatever it is their up to - they'd still lose a shooting war if one started, but they'd make more gains in the confusion before their stopped.

[Castout]

North Korea: War could erupt at any moment

http://www.examiner.com/a-2661848~NKorean_official_says_war_possible_at__any _moment_.html (http://www.examiner.com/a-2661848%7ENKorean_official_says_war_possible_at__a ny_moment_.html)


North Korea is saying the usual war rhetoric. But I must say that the world is now preoccupied with the Israeli Flotilla incident and there's only so much space in the renown dailies all over the world. May I suggest backing up the usual war rhetoric with another actual military provocation so that your agenda is again getting the spotlight you wished? :haha:. After all a bluff must look credible and real otherwise it would lose its potency.

The world is tired of your war rhetoric North Korea. If you decided to blast the South then you might as well do so without further Buzzzzz. I suggest hiding first from the incoming retaliation bombardment though.

it's like playing Russian Roulette. You just don't know which barrel is loaded and it would be too late before North Korea realized it just shot itself.

Take a look at this article to know the reasoning of why I just typed what I just typed

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/03/atwood/

A portion of which I copied here,

Henry's research uncovered the insights of Andrei Lankov (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/LE25Dg01.html), a Soviet-born scholar, educated at Leningrad State University and Pyongyang's Kim Il-Sung University. In a recent article, Lankov used his extensive experience in North Korea to describe three common stages of the North's negotiating approach.
The first stage, according to Lankov, is to raise tensions, mostly with belligerent rhetoric. The second is to act out in seemingly irrational ways to drive the point home with provocative acts such as launching missiles or conducting nuclear tests. Lastly, he suggests, the North Koreans use the heightened tensions to engage in negotiations, where they make the concession of stopping the behavior they themselves initiated. This abrupt shift toward reasonableness is then used to leverage the international community to be more accommodating.

[Turbografx]

Technically the ROK and US are already in a state of war with the DPRK, and have been since 1950.

All action would just be a resumption of the conflict.

[Platapus]

Technically the ROK and US are already in a state of war with the DPRK, and have been since 1950.

All action would just be a resumption of the conflict.

The United States was never at war with North Korea.

The United States was a member (the largest) of the United Nations Command which was involved in the Korean War.

The Armistice is an agreement between

1. Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army (North Korea)
2. Commander of the Chinese People's Volunteer Army (China)
3. Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command

It should be of interest that South Korea never signed the Armistice Agreement. South Korea refused to sign.

But in any case, the United States was never at war with North Korea. :nope:

[Skybird]

The United States was never at war with North Korea.

The United States was a member (the largest) of the United Nations Command which was involved in the Korean War.

The Armistice is an agreement between

1. Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army (North Korea)
2. Commander of the Chinese People's Volunteer Army (China)
3. Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command

It should be of interest that South Korea never signed the Armistice Agreement. South Korea refused to sign.

But in any case, the United States was never at war with North Korea. :nope:

Never looked at it that way, but after some googling, I find you seem to be true here. Good find! ;)

[Platapus]

So my question is, since South Korea never signed the armistice, what exactly is the status between the Koreas?

How can you have an armistice when one of the major players did not sign it?

Legally is there even a cease-fire between the Koreas? There is one between North Korea and the UN.

[Jimbuna]

I was always uner the (mistaken) impression that both the North and the South refused to sign :hmmm:

Cheers for clarifying that Plat :up:

[Alpha Von Burg]

It's unlikly that North Korae would declear war without its closes, if not only allie, China, because I remember at one point reading an article saying that North Korea could barely power all its cities which is why they imposed curfew... ironic if you asked me because I also heard at one point they announced a new fusion reactor lol.

To be honest, I don't think the North would even think about another war without help of course...

Also the South doesn't really have proper evidence to point the finger on North Korea they only know that a torpedo did hit thier ship...

I'm not being bias or anything and if you ask "THEN WHO DO YOU THINK DID IT ?" I would say it's more probably China... this is because from what I know China Has Just recently unvailed thier new " stealth submarine" fleet about 2 or 3 years ago now they plan to make 5 aircraft carriers...

This is all to interesting as it seems though China is competing in military arms because at about the same time China announced an increase in military budget and now military spending is about 60% or more of china's national GDP which is about the same as America at 64% of thier nation GDP...

Like I said, this is all to interesting...
ps correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, I might not release what I wrote...

[Alpha Von Burg]

By MATTHEW HICKLEY
Last updated at 00:13 10 November 2007


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html#ixzz0pyLRKhfp

"American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
snip…..
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it."

[Platapus]

I'm not being bias or anything and if you ask "THEN WHO DO YOU THINK DID IT ?" I would say it's more probably China... this is because from what I know China Has Just recently unvailed thier new " stealth submarine" fleet about 2 or 3 years ago now they plan to make 5 aircraft carriers...


For this argument I will accept that China had the means to do this. The question I would like answered is the same one I have been asking since this incident....

Why would China sink a South Korean military ship at that time and at that place?

This is what stynks about this incident. All the likely suspects don't seem to have a motive. :nope:

[Alpha Von Burg]

For this argument I will accept that China had the means to do this. The question I would like answered is the same one I have been asking since this incident....

Why would China sink a South Korean military ship at that time and at that place?

This is what stynks about this incident. All the likely suspects don't seem to have a motive. :nope:

This I can't say for sure, the motives are unclear, but remember the ship sank in disputed waters near "baegryeong-do" islands which is South Korean territory but in disputed waters, the island is also just about 190km from Chinese land.
And like I said, it's just "more likely" (not most), the North wouldn't want to go to war right now, at least without help.

There are 3 most likelys in my list: not arranged in any specific order...

-North Korea; which one of thier submarines were just taking defensive action in disputed waters...

-China; had the means, yet the motive is unclear... btw China has decided not to take sides on this situation, thought you might want to know...

-Or South Korea; a false flag operation to justify, perhaps an invasion or somthing like that anyway, and like you said "the South refused to sign the Armistice Agreement"...

short documentation on false flag operation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVR6_7BNyEI

:nope:All very unclear,
I guess only time will tell...

ps Feel free to expand on this list... Once again, I might not release what I have wrote, so correct me if I'm wrong...

[Oberon]

http://i48.tinypic.com/169q8v5.jpg
A South Korean soldier fires M67 90mm recoilless rifle during exercise.

http://i47.tinypic.com/34ys4rt.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/15qazvp.jpg
War museum in Seoul, South Korea added a new exhibit. An imitation of Chamsuri class patrol boat PKM357 which was sunken by North Korean attack in 2002.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ni2uk3.jpg
Soldiers of ROKA 76th div are firing an M114A2 155mm howitzer.

[MH]

It seems they use Galil rifle.
Finely i know where all this junk went....
-should sell it to NK.:har:

[TLAM Strike]

It seems they use Galil rifle.
Finely i know where all this junk went....
-should sell it to NK.:har:

Not an expert but I think its a Daewoo K2 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as32-e.htm).


Recent news reports (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk02500&num=6445) suggest that the submarine that sank the Cheonan was a North Korean Yeonon class "Small" Submarine. Small Submarine is what the DPRK call them, they are bigger than a infiltration midget but smaller than a Romeo. Interestingly the torpedos maybe have been fired from external drop collars rather than from torpedo tubes which the Yeonon has two of.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8/yeoneodatacardcopy.jpg

[MH]

Seems you are right looks similar to variant of this;
http://world.guns.ru/assault/galil-arm-r.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

Seems you are right looks similar to variant of this;
http://world.guns.ru/assault/galil-arm-r.jpg


Was there a photo in that post? I don't see one.

This is a photo of the real thing:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6431/p400001.jpg

[Weiss Pinguin]

How many crewmembers do they pack into that thing? :hmmm:

Seems you are right looks similar to variant of this;
http://world.guns.ru/assault/galil-arm-r.jpg

Was there a photo in that post? I don't see one.
No, but here's one: (from world.guns.ru)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/daewoo_k2_1.jpg

[Reece]

How many crewmembers do they pack into that thing? :hmmm:




No, but here's one: (from world.guns.ru)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/daewoo_k2_1.jpgInteresting picture,:hmmm: I'd call it... interesting!:yep:

[Jimbuna]

It may well be something at my end but I'm unable to see either trhe original or quoted pictures :hmmm:

[Castout]

Seems that South Korea and America don't want to provoke North Korea and risk war. South Korea fearing further provocation from the North by means of missile sought to get US Patriot system deployed but this is reported will anger China. :hmmm:

The joint sea exercise is delayed.


Could it be that it's because the Russians are planning a naval exercise near the Korean peninsula?

[TLAM Strike]

How many crewmembers do they pack into that thing? :hmmm:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/daewoo_k2_1.jpg

Around 7 or so. The infiltration version without torpedo tubes can carry more.

[TLAM Strike]

Well guys I kinda got it wrong. The graphic I made was incorrect. Turns out the Yeoneo class is not a modification of the P4 class submarine with external torpedoes as my graphic shows but an slightly different class also called the MS 29.

This is a image of my model

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=313&pictureid=2221
here is the actual item
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4509/ms29.jpg

Interestingly Iran also operates at least one boat of this class.
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8223/001od.jpg
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3129/002p.jpg

[Oberon]

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6875/40756316.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1692/59330228.jpg

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2261/82810660.jpg

Military intelligence officers from the Asian Pacific nations looks at the wreckage of the naval vessel Cheonan, which was sunk on March 26 near the maritime border with North Korea, upon his visit at the Second Fleet Command's naval base in Pyeongtaek, south of Seoul, June 11, 2010.

[Castout]

I'm still waiting for that bomb to hit North Korea mobile launchers despite the lack of boldness on the part of US and South Korea.

I'm very patient. Still waiting.:DL

[Oberon]

"Neun und neunzig luftballon..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10347643.stm

[Weiss Pinguin]

"Neun und neunzig luftballon..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10347643.stm
Close call... Until they turn out to be incendiary :shifty:

[Jimbuna]

Close call... Until they turn out to be incendiary :shifty:

Or filled with nerve gas :hmmm:

[OneToughHerring]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/yupko/LolCatRenderer2.aspxtoptinfoilcatbottomhassomedumb storiestotellyousize20imagenamealum_cat.jpg

[Ishmael]

I read through ALL the comments here and much of the reportage. I have ONE question that I've never seen answered.

Did the Cheonan's Duty Sonarman either HEAR Hydrophone Effects or SEE a Noise Spoke on their Sonar Display prior to the Explosion?

From what I've read of the Cheonan, she carries US anti-sub torps so I would assume the hull-mounted sonar mentioned is an improvement on the AN-SQS-23/TRAM system. Either thing would have been easily detected before impact and ASW countermeasures employed with the possible exception of a stern shot using the baffles to try to mask the torps noise. Even then, the torps audio would overdrive the sonar's baffle filters and still be audible.

[jrh]

Willyloman wrote:

Ishmael

to my knowledge Ishmael, that is one of the first things they looked at. In short, there were no reported soundings not only on board the Cheonan, but remember, they were conducting naval wargames and had multiple ships in the area at the time. None of them picked up anything that could have been a “live fish” in the water prior to the sinking.

That is one of the main reasons that the South Korean government had pretty much concluded that the sinking was accidental… that is… that is the conclusion they reached before Hillary Clinton rushed down there and convinced them they could “use” this as an opportunity to rachet up sanctions against North Korea and the “independent/objective” JIG investigation team was formed.

You will also note that the JIG team did NOT mention any sonar hits on a torpedo for their “conclusive” report. Had there been any, you can bet your bottom dollar they would have used it in the report to help bolster their claim. So the fact that any mention of sonar readings is missing from the report, tells us a lot.

thanks for the comment

[darius359au]

North Korea is now twittering ,which is kind of ironic with twit and NK in the same sentence http://www.physorg.com/news201097939.html

[Castout]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/yupko/LolCatRenderer2.aspxtoptinfoilcatbottomhassomedumb storiestotellyousize20imagenamealum_cat.jpg

Aah subsim's own troll

Tough Herring eh?!:hmmm: There much better than tin foil hat which doesn't work in the first place.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/roh_kudus/herring.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Aah subsim's own troll

Tough Herring eh?!:hmmm: There much better than tin foil hat which doesn't work in the first place.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/roh_kudus/herring.jpg

What made you post this? :hmmm: