Massive Price Drop!

[Nordmann]

Browsing Amazon, and I just noticed that SH5 went from £22.93, to £12.98, within a space of a few hours! That's quite a considerable drop, even for Amazon. I wonder if those low ratings have anything to do with it?

Check it out, here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Hunter-5-PC-DVD/dp/B002U0KBT8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1269533058&sr=8-1).

[TDK1044]

In the States, 'Go Gamer' has it for $32. Just the beginning. :)

[michaelws]

Same bad ratings on Amazon US...but the prices is over $48.00

[TDK1044]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

[robbo180265]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)


:rotfl2:

[Nordmann]

In the States, 'Go Gamer' has it for $32. Just the beginning. :)

I'm surprised that it was reduced so quickly, given that it has not been out all that long. I expected it to hold the £20 tag for a while longer, but perhaps Amazon UK have been having trouble shifting it? Regardless, that is a tempting price, especially if it continues to fall.

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

As long as it doesn't kill anyone, I'd say that's a good deal.

Engine and wheels require a registered Toyota account. Seats will provided at a later date.

[Yak]

...

[Nisgeis]

Game has it at £12.98 as well and interestingly, it is selling AC 2 for £16.98 - was it always that low?

[Nordmann]

No, both games were considerably more on release. Amazon listed SH5 at around £26 on release, down from the RRP of £30 or so. I believe AC2 was actually more than this, so perhaps it has something to do with the storm the OSP created?

Edit: Amazon are still selling AC2 for £22.93, which was the price of SH5 before the reduction today.

[PyRRhUs]

Well I think it´s because of the DRM and the reviews. People are voting with their wallets. I wish I have done the same but I don´t regret getting the game but I sure would been nice to get it for the low price.

[Sonarman]

Definitely not a good sign for the future of the series and any further patches.

[Nordmann]

Definitely not a good sign for the future of the series and any further patches.

I don't know, I got SH4 CE for £17 on release, and it received support for a time (granted, it could have been so much better); price isn't always an indicator of success or failure. What it perhaps does show, is that people are either not willing to buy it at the original list price, or not willing to buy it period. In the first case, they will probably make more sales, in the second, no change.

We'll have to wait and see whether the trend continues, but I have a feeling it will stop at £12 for the time being. I cannot see a newly released game being anything below £10, unless it really is a lemon. It may even go up again, as prices fluctuate rather rapidly these days.

Still, Ubi have already made their money from the retailers who have purchased stocks of SH5 at trade prices, thus this retail reduction only affects the seller, not Ubi.

[Ark]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)


Do I have to upgrade the sales guy at the dealership in order to get better gas mileage?

[sav112]

Wow.

I know I said I'd buy it when I get my new machine from the bargain bin but that say’s it all really about poor sales:oops::oops::oops:. I very much doubt SH6 will be on the cards:cry: but on the bright side we probably will have a well modded Game that only cost us £5 and they will drop that DRM stuff as that must cost a bit to run.

"Still, Ubi have already made their money from the retailers who have purchased stocks of SH5 at trade prices, thus this retail reduction only affects the seller, not Ubi."

Aye but only limited stock and they will not order any more if they cant shift the few they have. Game here in Glasgow had Five copies, Aye that’s right five and that all they had four are still there.

I’d shudder to think what some of the consoles games are selling at probably five an hour.

[thyro]

Is UBI playing the "price game" to cut the losses...

also dropped at Game shop in UK...

http://www.game.co.uk/Games/PC-Games/Silent-Hunter-5/~r345842/ (http://www.game.co.uk/Games/PC-Games/Silent-Hunter-5/%7Er345842/)


In Stock £12.98


RRP £39.99
Save £27.01


But for me if could well go cheaper than that it could well reach £1 but with DRM is a no go for me.

[Nordmann]

Is UBI playing the "price game" to cut the losses...


I suspect it's the retailers, rather than Ubi, as they have already bought the game from Ubi's distributors. It would suggest that in order to shift their stock, they are having to slash prices by almost 50%. I suppose that gives you some indication of sales.

But for me if could well go cheaper than that it could well reach £1 but with DRM is a no go for me.


If you're only paying a £1, I doubt DRM is even an issue any more. It probably doesn't exist.

[Sonarman]

Still, Ubi have already made their money from the retailers who have purchased stocks of SH5 at trade prices, thus this retail reduction only affects the seller, not Ubi.

You could be right although it's depressing to see how many retailers didn't pick it up in the UK, in the fairly sizeable town where I live, neither ASDA or Tesco brought it into stock, GAME had one copy on release. And on the mail order front although Amazon & Play.com picked it up Gameplay did not.

[Nordmann]

You could be right although it's depressing to see how many retailers didn't pick it up in the UK, in the fairly sizeable town where I live, neither ASDA or Tesco brought it into stock, GAME had one copy on release. And on the mail order front although Amazon & Play.com picked it up Gameplay did not.

To be honest, most high-street stores are pathetic when it comes to PC games, and when said games are simulations, you might as well be looking for a needle in a haystack! I stopped buying my games from shops around six years ago, and haven't looked back.

[thyro]

If you're only paying a £1, I doubt DRM is even an issue any more. It probably doesn't exist.

I did mean even if UBI offered me for free SH5 in a gold package and the manual in full coloured hand made... if it contains DRM as it stands I would have refused it.

I want a game... not a service.

Therefore I'm happy to open my wallet to a game at any price even if it was above £70 but not to a service. Cheers.

[TDK1044]

I think what it says is that the 'casual gamers' it was targeted at are not buying it, and neither are a lot of subsimmers who are angry over the DRM.

Now all we need is for Ubisoft to make an executive decision not to waste any server time with this game, and we'll then get a patch to play it offline.

At that point, we can really start to mod and play it.

As for future games in the Franchise...who knows? Looks unlikely though.

[Sonarman]

@ Nordmann
Our local GAME store now only has one small floor unit devoted to PC games where last year it had two wall bays and two large floor standing units, looks like they are out to kill off PC gaming in favour of the consoles altogether.

[Nordmann]

I did mean even if IF offered me for free SH5 in a gold package and the manual in full coloured hand made... if it contains DRM as it stands I would have refused it.

I want a game... not a service.

Therefore I'm happy to open my wallet to a game at any price even if it was above £70 but not to a service. Cheers.

I understand what you meant, and I agree. What I was saying, is that by the time the game drops below £5, Ubi will have removed their 'service' as there is no longer any need to 'protect' what is essentially an old game.

@ Nordmann
Our local GAME store now only has one small floor unit devoted to PC games where last year it had two wall bays and two large floor standing units, looks like they are out to kill off PC gaming in favour of the consoles altogether.

Well, of course they do. The average PC game weighs in at around £20, whereas console games sell for anywhere between 35 to 45 pounds! Which one makes them the most money, and sells most often?

[Coldcall]

I think its good news for future subsims. Ubisoft are getting spanked commercially and they will either get their crap together or another company will take the subsim market away from them.

Law of the jungle, long let it be that way.

PS: In fact if they just swallowed their pride and released a patch to un-DRM the game i am sure they'd get another rush in sales. But they wont because they have the typical corporate mentality which is to never admit you screwed up, just blame someone else.

[thyro]

@ Nordmann
Our local GAME store now only has one small floor unit devoted to PC games where last year it had two wall bays and two large floor standing units, looks like they are out to kill off PC gaming in favour of the consoles altogether.

That is quite true but they have and carry one reducing PC area, and also noticing today on their website, they have a "download" thing to burn your own DVDs/CDs... but hey... what GAME store lacks others stores cover the market and in my small town I have other store that has increased the PC offer.

But the chances are that in few years time, PC games will be like Mac were and are, only few games and brands remain resisting.

[Coldcall]

Well, it looks like we won't be getting another Silent Hunter. I hope you're all very pleased with yourselves :nope:

Are you taking the proverbial pee? Whose fault exactly is it that the game is failing to sell?

[Nordmann]

Well, it looks like we won't be getting another Silent Hunter. I hope you're all very pleased with yourselves :nope:

That is not necessarily the case. What they will do, is weigh expenditure with income, if the latter outstrips the former, then we will get more games, if the former outstrips the latter, then yes, this may be the last (from Ubisoft in any case).

But this has been on the cards for some time; given the niche market nature of Silent Hunter, the limited audience, and a tougher economic climate, I'm surprised SH5 was even produced.

Edit: What's that, his post is gone, guess that answers that!

[The General]

@Nordmann

What "Income"?! The price has just been dropped to virtually zero! They're practically giving them away! This can only mean one thing.
____________________________________

You do realise that this means they'll be no more Subsims of any quality for the PC? That's it, it's over! They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off! The console market is just that much more lucrative, all resources for the big software companies will now be targeted upon that. There will NEVER be a decent subsim for a console. I hope the Jackasses who posted bad reviews on Amazon are happy, because SH5 is the last one and the horrible irony is, it's probably the best!

[Nordmann]

You do realise that this means they'll be no more Subsims of any quality for the PC? That's it, it's over! They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off! The console market is just that much more lucrative, all resources for the big software companies will now be targeted upon that. There will NEVER be a decent subsim for a console. I hope the Jackasses who posted bad reviews on Amazon are happy, because SH5 is the last one :nope:

Let's recap. Who made the game? Who is responsible for said game? Who is responsible for said game having issues, that put people off buying said game, and writing bad reviews of said game? Let's see, I wonder who that could be!

@Nordmann

What "Income"?! The price has just been dropped to virtually zero! They're practically giving them away! This can only mean one thing.

*Sigh* I have already explained this several times. Ubi (well, their distributors) have sold the game to the retailers, who in turn sell it to us. The price has been reduced by the retailers, not Ubi. Ubi have already made their money off the retailers who bought the game, to sell in their stores. It is the retailers who, if anything, have made a loss. If anyone stops selling Silent Hunter games, I would think it would be said retailers!

[Dave]

As a keen SH3 player and a SH4 player i have decided to purchase SH5 at the reduced price. I was holding off in view of the various negative comments that have been made but have now decided to go ahead. I think however tha UBI have done themselves no credit in selling an unfinished game, and expect "Subsim" modders to make the game workable.

It is a great pity that they didn't just update SH3 to current graphic standards and am sure most people would have been happy apart from the DRM problem.

I have a good IT connection and wait with interest to see what happens when i try to connect to UBI( assumming that it is working). Any problems and the game will be returned

[The General]

@Nerdmann

I can't believe I gotta waist my thousandth Post to show you the error of your ways :nope:

SH5 1.2 is the best subsim there has ever been. That's right, I said 1.2!

For you to create a thread that serves no other purpose than to gloat the demise of a great franchise for Subsim fans is reprehensible. If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off.

Don't condescend me by suggesting that I don't know how the system works with regard to sales figures. If the game is available for practically nothing, less than one month after release, they'll be no more and that's the bottome line!

[Nordmann]

@Nerdmann

I can't believe I gotta waist my thousandth Post to show you the error of your ways :nope:

SH5 1.2 is the best subsim there has ever been. That's right, I said 1.2!

For you to create a thread that serves no other purpose than to gloat the demise of a great franchise for Subsim fans is reprehensible. If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off.

Don't condescend me by suggesting that I don't know how the system works with regard to sales figures. If the game is available for practically nothing, less than one month after release, they'll be no more and that's the bottome line!

Look, I don't know what you've been smoking/drinking, and frankly I don't care. This thread was not created to 'gloat' over the so called demise of Silent Hunter, but to point out to those who have yet to purchase the game (for whatever reason) that now may be the opportune time to do so.

As it happens, I am tempted to spend £12 and mod the hell out of the game, so don't come in here and tell me, or anyone else for that matter, that we are responsible for the demise of a genre which has been sinking for some time. Thank you very much.

If you are incapable of understanding the points I was raising, that it your concern, not mine. Please stop attacking everyone who you suspect may not have the same opinion as you, it does not go down well in a 'mature' forum.

[Coldcall]

Actually there are some interesting price comparisons at amazon UK

1) SH5 = £12.98

2) SH4 Mousepad = £9.99

3) SH4 + u-boats addon = £12.95

4) Uboats for SH4 (just the expansion) = £9.95

Lets play a game. Which one of those doesnt fit? :-) Sesame Street anyone...

[The General]

As it happens, I am tempted to spend £12 and mod the hell out of the game,.How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it? I bet you support Manchester United having never even been to Manchester too?

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.

[Nordmann]

How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it? I bet you support Manchester United having never even been to Manchester too?

*Insert double facepalm here* Let me ask you a question, has there ever been a Silent Hunter that wasn't in need of modding? Oh, now be honest, can you think of one?

As for football, hate the bloody sport personally. :yep:

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.

Well, that's done it, you've finally confirmed my suspicions. You are nothing but a troll, plain and simple. Welcome to my ignore list.

[thyro]

Actually there are some interesting price comparisons at amazon UK

1) SH5 = £12.98

2) SH4 Mousepad = £9.99

3) SH4 + u-boats addon = £12.95

4) Uboats for SH4 (just the expansion) = £9.95

Lets play a game. Which one of those doesnt fit? :-) Sesame Street anyone...

SH4 Pack collections edition (with game plus addon) under £5 ... better price and far better game than SH5 currently is.

http://www.game.co.uk/Games/PC-Games/Silent-Hunter-4-Collectors-Pack/~r333180/ (http://www.game.co.uk/Games/PC-Games/Silent-Hunter-4-Collectors-Pack/%7Er333180/)
(http://www.game.co.uk/Games/PC-Games/Silent-Hunter-4-Collectors-Pack/%7Er333180/)
It is tough but true...

[Easy Tiger]

Thanks Nordmann, probably going to buy this now - looks like holding out was worth it

[Easy Tiger]

How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it? I bet you support Manchester United having never even been to Manchester too?

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.
Someone got out the wrong side of bed this morning :woot:

[The General]

Someone got out the wrong side of bed this morning :woot:Actually, my girlfriend called it quits last night. Can't imagine why :03:

[Filson]

I think what it says is that the 'casual gamers' it was targeted at are not buying it, and neither are a lot of subsimmers who are angry over the DRM.

Now all we need is for Ubisoft to make an executive decision not to waste any server time with this game, and we'll then get a patch to play it offline.

At that point, we can really start to mod and play it.

As for future games in the Franchise...who knows? Looks unlikely though.

I suspect the DRM won't be lasting much longer. These quick, steep price reductions (seemingly UK only for the time being) seem to indicate that retailers will not be re-upping their stock of SHV. That, in turn, suggests there is no incentive for Ubi to maintain the DRM which uses Ubi's resources.

I would love to see some sales data information for the day after they remove DRM. I, for one, will probably be buying it then.

C Filson

[Dave]

Has SH5 1.2 been released yet? i thought it was still being worked on.

[Safe-Keeper]

It's being worked on, but I heard that the idiots at Ubi are going to force you to be connected to the Internet while downloading it. I'm not getting it 'til they fix that:damn:.

Okay, bad joke.

[Gunnodayak]

For you to create a thread that serves no other purpose than to gloat the demise of a great franchise for Subsim fans is reprehensible. If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off.


I would boot you off before you booting off somebody else ... Maybe you should learn some manners in your village.

[Justy]

@Nerdmann

I can't believe I gotta waist my thousandth Post to show you the error of your ways :nope:

SH5 1.2 is the best subsim there has ever been. That's right, I said 1.2!

For you to create a thread that serves no other purpose than to gloat the demise of a great franchise for Subsim fans is reprehensible. If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off.

Don't condescend me by suggesting that I don't know how the system works with regard to sales figures. If the game is available for practically nothing, less than one month after release, they'll be no more and that's the bottome line!

Are you for real? I'm new here and new to this game but my brother-in-law has shown me SH4 and 3 in the past. You really think this is the best game released? Granted they have been modded and patched more so it's not a fair comparison but this game has bugs! It's pretty and all, I like that, but there's some weird stuff happening that even a new guy like me notices pretty easily. Okay, I'm not home so I don't know, but has 1.2 been released? If not, how can you claim that? Why do you have to insult Nordmann?

If this game fails it's not the reviewers fault for stating how the game is in its' current condition, you get that, right dude? It fails because of how it was released and how many people, it seems, have an issue with that DMR thing- I don't care either way personally. The only one that can be held responsible if the game fails is those that make it, not those that refuse to buy it or review it... jeeze!

[Placoderm]

@Nordmann

What "Income"?! The price has just been dropped to virtually zero! They're practically giving them away! This can only mean one thing.
____________________________________

You do realise that this means they'll be no more Subsims of any quality for the PC? That's it, it's over! They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off! The console market is just that much more lucrative, all resources for the big software companies will now be targeted upon that. There will NEVER be a decent subsim for a console. I hope the Jackasses who posted bad reviews on Amazon are happy, because SH5 is the last one and the horrible irony is, it's probably the best!


"This can only mean one thing"

Yes, That UBISOFT screwed themselves out of thousands of sales and deserve the consequences for their lack of trust in their core customer base. The have nobody to blame but themselves and I, for one, could not care less if they never produce another game if this is what they think of the people who got them where they are today.

They were afraid of PIRATES?!?! Really?!? Heck, Ubisoft have done more financial damage to themselves by their own self-destructive paranoia than if every software pirate on the planet had copied their precious game.

Do you realize that at a 50% reduction in the sales price, they are loosing more money than if 1 out of every 2 potential customers had pirated their game? Add to that the PR nightmare and future losses of sales that will result from their decisions, and it is UBISOFT and nobody else who is to blame for this failure in their sales.

As for the whiners who are saying that if we do not kiss the figurative behind of Ubisoft or else we will never get another submarine simulation? Get real...we do NOT have a submarine simulation with SH5, we have a very pretty and graphically intense ARCADE experinece...but not a simulation. If there were a Silent Hunter 6, do you really think it would be any different? Again, ...get real.

Before Silent Hunter there was Aces of the Deep...and folks lamented the loss of their beloved Aces. Before Aces of the Deep we had Silent Service...and people cried that they could not run Aces on their comuters and begged for Microsoft to continue developing Silent Service. I guarantee you that after Silent Hunter sinks to the briny deep there will be something to fill the gap it leaves, and maybe...just maybe...it will take the collapse of the SH franchise to bring that opportunity to light. History has shown that whatever follows will likely be better than anything that came before.

Do I want Silent Hunter to die? NO, not at all...but if it does it will not be due to anything but Ubisoft's own lack of focus and abandonment of it's previously very loyal customer base.


"...They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off"

Oh Really? Exactly what competitors do they have now? Perhaps with a publishing giant like Ubisoft out of the picture, an independant development house can finally compete and produce something made by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts. (Eagle studios would never have been able to make Jutland if the Great Naval Battles franchise were still in the way...)


"...because SH5 is the last one and the horrible irony is, it's probably the best!"

Graphically, yes. It is gorgeous. The modeling is beautifully done and the ocean simulation is the best ever attempted, bar none. Historically though, not even close. Silent Hunter 5 is to historical simulations what Enigma Rising Tide was...except that Enigma at least understood that it was in an historical alternate reality. Silent Hunter pretends just the opposite.



:damn:

[Nordmann]

Thanks Nordmann, probably going to buy this now - looks like holding out was worth it

You're welcome mate, I might just do the same thing.

Are you for real?

Unfortunately, in his own twisted way. Sadly, we're seeing a lot more of this kind of thing on here these days. If you don't agree with them, or they assume that you don't agree with them, then they attack you with personal insults. I suppose it only goes to highlight the childishness of these people.

Why do you have to insult Nordmann?


Because he's insecure, and assumed that this thread and my subsequent posts were demonising his beloved game, when in fact they were quite the opposite. It also goes to prove that the art of discussion is lost on some people, goodness knows why they visit a forum in the first place!

[Dutch]

Once the game is around 10$ and DRM free I'll buy it.

I'll give it 6 months.

[Nordmann]

Once the game is around 10$ and DRM free I'll buy it.

I'll give it 6 months.

You might not have to wait that long, it dropped nearly £12 in one day alone. If this keeps up, they'll have no need for DRM.

[The Enigma]

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.

So you are the one who knows it all??
Man, you are so wrong. :down:

I'm a U-boat simulation fan for many, many years.
Maybe you were still filling diapers while I was playing these type of games.

So when I decide to not to buy a game, doesn't that mean I'm no fan of the genre.

People have many reasons for buying/not buying items.
Making these kind of decisions do say nothing about their being/not being loyal.

Also, I'm no follower.
I make my decisions completely by myself.
In case I need some advice, one thing is clear now, I never would ask you. :stare:

You have proven to be very narrow minded with your comment.

Having said this, I feel much better now.

[Commie]

"This can only mean one thing"

Yes, That UBISOFT screwed themselves out of thousands of sales and deserve the consequences for their lack of trust in their core customer base. The have nobody to blame but themselves and I, for one, could not care less if they never produce another game if this is what they think of the people who got them where they are today.

They were afraid of PIRATES?!?! Really?!? Heck, Ubisoft have done more financial damage to themselves by their own self-destructive paranoia than if every software pirate on the planet had copied their precious game.

Do you realize that at a 50% reduction in the sales price, they are loosing more money than if 1 out of every 2 potential customers had pirated their game? Add to that the PR nightmare and future losses of sales that will result from their decisions, and it is UBISOFT and nobody else who is to blame for this failure in their sales.

As for the whiners who are saying that if we do not kiss the figurative behind of Ubisoft or else we will never get another submarine simulation? Get real...we do NOT have a submarine simulation with SH5, we have a very pretty and graphically intense ARCADE experinece...but not a simulation. If there were a Silent Hunter 6, do you really think it would be any different? Again, ...get real.

Before Silent Hunter there was Aces of the Deep...and folks lamented the loss of their beloved Aces. Before Aces of the Deep we had Silent Service...and people cried that they could not run Aces on their comuters and begged for Microsoft to continue developing Silent Service. I guarantee you that after Silent Hunter sinks to the briny deep there will be something to fill the gap it leaves, and maybe...just maybe...it will take the collapse of the SH franchise to bring that opportunity to light. History has shown that whatever follows will likely be better than anything that came before.

Do I want Silent Hunter to die? NO, not at all...but if it does it will not be due to anything but Ubisoft's own lack of focus and abandonment of it's previously very loyal customer base.


"...They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off"

Oh Really? Exactly what competitors do they have now? Perhaps with a publishing giant like Ubisoft out of the picture, an independant development house can finally compete and produce something made by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts. (Eagle studios would never have been able to make Jutland if the Great Naval Battles franchise were still in the way...)


"...because SH5 is the last one and the horrible irony is, it's probably the best!"

Graphically, yes. It is gorgeous. The modeling is beautifully done and the ocean simulation is the best ever attempted, bar none. Historically though, not even close. Silent Hunter 5 is to historical simulations what Enigma Rising Tide was...except that Enigma at least understood that it was in an historical alternate reality. Silent Hunter pretends just the opposite.



:damn:

Great post. Totally agree, couldn't really add any more!

[Nordmann]

You have proven to be very narrow minded with your comment.


He's proven one thing, and one thing only, that even this forum has its fair share of trolls. Add him to your ignore list, and pretend he doesn't exist.

[Placoderm]

@Nerdmann

I can't believe I gotta waist my thousandth Post to show you the error of your ways :nope:

SH5 1.2 is the best subsim there has ever been. That's right, I said 1.2!

For you to create a thread that serves no other purpose than to gloat the demise of a great franchise for Subsim fans is reprehensible. If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off.

Don't condescend me by suggesting that I don't know how the system works with regard to sales figures. If the game is available for practically nothing, less than one month after release, they'll be no more and that's the bottome line!

"@Nerdmann"

That is just childish. This is supposed to be a mature discussion, and a sharing of ideas, opinions, and experiences. If you do not like someone's opinion, either move on or counter it with your own.


"SH5 1.2 is the best subsim there has ever been. That's right, I said 1.2!"

So, are you a beta tester (likely violating your non-disclosure agreement), or an SH5 developer working for Ubi (which would explain your overly defensive attitude)?


"...If this was my Website, I'd simply boot you off."

Oh, that answers that...you work for Ubisoft... :rotfl2:


"If the game is available for practically nothing, less than one month after release, they'll be no more and that's the bottome line!"

:wah::wah::wah:

...And Ubisoft would be the only one to blame, too. :woot:


I must ask, Mr. The General, ...if I frequent a fine restaurant for years and then never return after I get food poisoning and they get written up by the Health Department...is it MY fault if they then go out of business?:know:


To stay in business, all one has to do is gain and please more customers than you lose or displease. If a company cannot do that one basic requirement...they do not deserve to be in business in the first place.

I do hope that the 1.2 patch is as awesome as you indicate. Ubisoft would do well to fix the bugs. I doubt seriously, though, that it will address the ahistorical abyss that SH5 is currently, nor the script-laden non-dymanic campaign structure that is more about theatrically intense arcade action than it is about re-living history. Those things are core design elements that likely cannot be changed in a simple patch, and it is those things that seem to be the bane of many reviewers and players. Sure, it will be great if it just addresses all the current bugs, without introducing new ones. Only time will tell if it does more than that, which is what is truly needed to save this game.



:nope:

[IanC]

don't feed the troll guys...

[Nordmann]

Well, I can't even see his posts, so it's all good as far as I'm concerned. He's no doubt trolling another thread in any case.

[Brag]

From what I hear, SH5 is sold as a fixer upper. In that case it belonged in the bargain bins from the beginning.

Never mind the DRM.

The troll has the brain of an Ubi PR guy specializing in stupid utterings.
:haha::har::haha::har:

[goldorak]

Once the game is around 10$ and DRM free I'll buy it.

I'll give it 6 months.


6 months ? No way, 3 months at most. SH5 will be 10 € (VAT included) by June.
As for DRM who know ?

[janh]

"This can only mean one thing"

Yes, That UBISOFT screwed themselves out of thousands of sales and deserve the consequences for their lack of trust in their core customer base. The have nobody to blame but themselves and I, for one, could not care less if they never produce another game if this is what they think of the people who got them where they are today.

They were afraid of PIRATES?!?! Really?!? Heck, Ubisoft have done more financial damage to themselves by their own self-destructive paranoia than if every software pirate on the planet had copied their precious game.

Do you realize that at a 50% reduction in the sales price, they are loosing more money than if 1 out of every 2 potential customers had pirated their game? Add to that the PR nightmare and future losses of sales that will result from their decisions, and it is UBISOFT and nobody else who is to blame for this failure in their sales.

As for the whiners who are saying that if we do not kiss the figurative behind of Ubisoft or else we will never get another submarine simulation? Get real...we do NOT have a submarine simulation with SH5, we have a very pretty and graphically intense ARCADE experinece...but not a simulation. If there were a Silent Hunter 6, do you really think it would be any different? Again, ...get real.

Before Silent Hunter there was Aces of the Deep...and folks lamented the loss of their beloved Aces. Before Aces of the Deep we had Silent Service...and people cried that they could not run Aces on their comuters and begged for Microsoft to continue developing Silent Service. I guarantee you that after Silent Hunter sinks to the briny deep there will be something to fill the gap it leaves, and maybe...just maybe...it will take the collapse of the SH franchise to bring that opportunity to light. History has shown that whatever follows will likely be better than anything that came before.

Do I want Silent Hunter to die? NO, not at all...but if it does it will not be due to anything but Ubisoft's own lack of focus and abandonment of it's previously very loyal customer base.


"...They'll be no competitors of Ubisoft to come along and pick up where they left-off"

Oh Really? Exactly what competitors do they have now? Perhaps with a publishing giant like Ubisoft out of the picture, an independant development house can finally compete and produce something made by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts. (Eagle studios would never have been able to make Jutland if the Great Naval Battles franchise were still in the way...)


"...because SH5 is the last one and the horrible irony is, it's probably the best!"

Graphically, yes. It is gorgeous. The modeling is beautifully done and the ocean simulation is the best ever attempted, bar none. Historically though, not even close. Silent Hunter 5 is to historical simulations what Enigma Rising Tide was...except that Enigma at least understood that it was in an historical alternate reality. Silent Hunter pretends just the opposite.

:damn:

Wow, very sharp posts, both of yours. There is little to add, nor much ground to argue against it. I concur that Ubisofts OSP-DRM concept has done them more damage for this generation of games (SHV, ACII, S7...) than pirates could ever have done. And this is surely going to propagate into their future releases for probably some 3-6 years. I hope this time they won't easily blame it on pirates.

I am more and more convinced that there are plenty of examples that show that not piracy is the real problem of the gaming industry, though it does cost some sales. There are just too many examples of new studios/developers in the past 15 years that have landed "1st time" superhits, which proved to be ground-breaking new game ideas, features etc. And too many examples of small and big companies developing something that they had in mind, but that was orthogonal to the gamers interests, or badly executed. They just failed to approach and bind customers through service, quality and addressing the wishes of the latter (all of which is so common in markets/jobs where you still have real contact with your customer basis).

Surely nobody wants to see the SH series die, many of us have spent way to far happy hours playing them. But a bad product is as good as no product at all. And as you concluded, many subsim series already died, and always a new generation followed that was better than any predecessor. So, have a tea and let's wait and see.

[Vreith]

Just got this email from ubi... is this meant to be an apology?? if so don't bother just fix the god dam game!!!!
(PS is you want the prince of Persia one the link doesn't work so you can't even get ure free game, looks like another thing Ubi did not 'beta' "

""Dear **********

Following the recent temporary game server outages which may have caused disruption to some Silent Hunter 5 players on PC only, we would like to reward your patience if you have experienced any problems by offerring you a full downloadable game from the list provided below, completely free of charge.HERE'S HOW TO GET YOUR FREE GAME:
1- Make your choice by clicking on one of the icons below…
You will be automatically directed to a new web page where you can download your game
3- Click the “download” button & enter your promotional code : ********** when prompted
4- When your game has downloaded you just need to install it
5- Enjoy!

We hope you continue to enjoy Silent Hunter 5 and can use our free download offer.

Best Regards,


The Ubisoft Team""

[Dutch]

6 months ? No way, 3 months at most. SH5 will be 10 € (VAT included) by June.
As for DRM who know ?

Right but the Dollar is worth less next to the pound or Euro or whatever that symbol is. Sorry just don't recognize it but I figure its on of those two.

So what the current conversion rate? I suppose 10 Euro's/Pounds = 20$ (Dollars US)?

20$ is still to much to purchase this game and thats if it didn't have DRM.

[Nordmann]

At the current rate, £12.98 = $19.2391, this is down from £22.93 (or $33.9814). However you look at it, that's quite a drop.

I said a while back that this game was worth between 10 to 12 pounds (in it's present state), it seems Amazon have thus far proved me right.

[Carotio]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

Be aware that this deal requires a constant electric wire connection to make it drive... :O:

Still, Ubi have already made their money from the retailers who have purchased stocks of SH5 at trade prices, thus this retail reduction only affects the seller, not Ubi.

Maybe, but only full price for the first stock. If this tendency endures, the retaillers won't pay full price to Ubisoft for the next stock. So sooner or later, Ubisoft WILL see the light... It's just a matter of time...

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.

Any Subsim member can express his/her POV, positive or negative, AFAIK. And someone like me having played SH1, SH2, SH3 and SH4 CAN call myself a TRUE subsim fan, even though SH5 hasn't been purchased.
Who are you to decide how much or how little a gamer can call himself a subsim fan? Let's not forget who were brigged for creating a secondary account to make a poll to get himself banned. Welcome back to reality and soon to the ignore list of all subsim members, if you continue to behave like that. If you come up with such a rude comment again, you'll have the honour of being the first member to ever reach my ignore list, and that just says it all, imagining that I have been here far longer than you and in all those years have seen numerous quarrels with several modders on this forum. One can spend better time than reading such rubbish.

[Nordmann]

Maybe, but only full price for the first stock. If this tendency endures, the retaillers won't pay full price to Ubisoft for the next stock. So sooner or later, Ubisoft WILL see the light... It's just a matter of time...

Yes, that may well be the case. I know if it were my business, and I were having trouble shifting them, I'd either stop selling them, or want a reduction in price from Ubi if and when the next order was placed.

In any case, Ubi's not exactly short on money, to say little of the numerous people who paid full price on release day. I don't think they'll worry too much a few weeks down the line.

If you come up with such a rude comment again, you'll have the honour of being the first member to ever reach my ignore list, and that just says it all, imagining that I have been here far longer than you and in all those years have seen numerous quarrels with several modders on this forum. One can spend better time than reading such rubbish.

He has the honour of being the first, and hopefully, last poster on my ignore list. Rude does not even begin to describe his behaviour, and frankly I'm surprised he's still around to post such drivel; I've seen people banned for far less elsewhere.

[UnSalted]

So then....who wants to be the first to drive a Toyota with a jammed gas pedal down the Kiel Canal?

[maurader]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

But I think there has been more SH5 crashes than Toyota crashes.:haha:

[KING111]

And Assassin's Creed II £15.98
looks like ubisofts DRM is a game killer:hmmm:

[Shandiir]

It came out at AU$110, now at EB its AU$88. Still too high to buy!

[Diopos]

So then....who wants to be the first to drive a Toyota with a jammed gas pedal down the Kiel Canal?

Not jammed just a "required permanent connection" to the floor! :)



.

[Paajtor]

Just got this email from ubi... is this meant to be an apology?? if so don't bother just fix the god dam game!!!!
(PS is you want the prince of Persia one the link doesn't work so you can't even get ure free game, looks like another thing Ubi did not 'beta' "

""Dear **********

Following the recent temporary game server outages which may have caused disruption to some Silent Hunter 5 players on PC only, we would like to reward your patience if you have experienced any problems by offerring you a full downloadable game from the list provided below, completely free of charge.HERE'S HOW TO GET YOUR FREE GAME:
1- Make your choice by clicking on one of the icons below…
You will be automatically directed to a new web page where you can download your game
3- Click the “download” button & enter your promotional code : ********** when prompted
4- When your game has downloaded you just need to install it
5- Enjoy!

We hope you continue to enjoy Silent Hunter 5 and can use our free download offer.

Best Regards,


The Ubisoft Team""
:har: priceless, Ubi kills me

[Drifter]

Wow. Check out this snip from an SH5 buyer review I found on Amazon:

After a couple of days of this BS, I took it back to GameStop. I thought I'd get an argument, but they said they were instructed to take back this particular game without question, so I got my $50 bucks back.

Not good news for Ubi. :o

http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Hunter-Battle-Atlantic-Pc/product-reviews/B002PAIPQO/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

[TarJak]

Seen it in a "shop/stall" here in Hong Kong for HK$10. Doesn't look like the official version though.:D

[jazman]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

As long as the Toyota doesn't need to be connected to Ubisoft while driving, so you can go for a long drive when the Ubisoft servers go down again.

[Yak]

Just got this email from ubi... is this meant to be an apology?? if so don't bother just fix the god dam game!!!!
(PS is you want the prince of Persia one the link doesn't work so you can't even get ure free game, looks like another thing Ubi did not 'beta' "

""Dear **********

Following the recent temporary game server outages which may have caused disruption to some Silent Hunter 5 players on PC only, we would like to reward your patience if you have experienced any problems by offerring you a full downloadable game from the list provided below, completely free of charge.HERE'S HOW TO GET YOUR FREE GAME:
1- Make your choice by clicking on one of the icons below…
You will be automatically directed to a new web page where you can download your game
3- Click the “download” button & enter your promotional code : ********** when prompted
4- When your game has downloaded you just need to install it
5- Enjoy!

We hope you continue to enjoy Silent Hunter 5 and can use our free download offer.

Best Regards,


The Ubisoft Team""


So one of their free compensations, was a game that has been free to download [FROM UBISOFT!!!] for two years now?

WTF?

I'm assuming Far Cry was also on the list?

What a bunch of con artists.

Enjoy the kool-aid boys...

[Iron Budokan]

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.


Next time put water in the bong.

:har:

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, most unfortunate, looks like SH5 will be the last subsim we see in a long time.

[BigBANGtheory]

Unless they examine their mistakes and re-release the game + new content. Ubisoft has already made an investment in SH5 they are unlikely just to throw in the towel after a few weeks.

[goldorak]

yes, most unfortunate, looks like SH5 will be the last subsim we see in a long time.

Ubisoft doesn't have a monopoly on the subsim genre.
Now what may happen is this : there will be no more AAA graphics intense subsims. But this is different from saying that the subsim genre is dead in the water.

Think about it, going from SH3 to SH 5 what has been acomplished ? More graphics yes of course. And then what else ? The real improvements are nowhere to be seen because Ubisoft never cared for in the first place.
And no what I'm thinking of can never be achieved by simply modding SH 5.

Cheer up, people are still playing CFS2 and Fs9. Subsimers will have to make do with what they have. Sh3, 4 and 5.

[alexradu89]

The more we wait, the cheaper SH5 will get + more patches/mods!:yeah:

[Jimbuna]

The more we wait, the cheaper SH5 will get + more patches/mods!:yeah:

What concerns me is the possibility of the SH series coming to an end :hmmm:

[Gunnodayak]

What concerns me is the possibility of the SH series coming to an end :hmmm:
This would be the best thing that can happen. That way, some other game producer company will make an "approach" on this area, and it will make some real submarine simulator, with other name, different than Silent Hunter. The possibility of a clean start, a clean start that Ubi is not capable anymore.
Sub Command made by Sonalysts was a submarine simulator, Ubi's Silent Hunter series is not. SH III and 4 had some simulator elements, SH5 have very few, so SH5 it's obvious not a submarine simulator. I really don't know why people are talking about SH5 as a submarine simulator, even Ubi does not see the game as a simulator, as you probably know that. But many of you really WANT to see it that way, the way that it isn't.

[Adriatico]

What concerns me is the possibility of the SH series coming to an end :hmmm:
I survived my last concerns in September09 coming GWX4 to an end.

After that, if Ubi doesn't care what they serve to community why should we care more ? ...more than Ubi itself.

If your partner doesn't like you any more - ask yourself what have you done to him.

[alexradu89]

What concerns me is the possibility of the SH series coming to an end :hmmm:
Hope never dies jimbuna ! It may take a while, and a lot of effort but we can just make our own subsim then! :salute: We'll start out as a small sprout, but evolve into a freaking huge and awesome tall oak tree!:arrgh!:

[Gunnodayak]

Hope never dies jimbuna ! It may take a while, and a lot of effort but we can just make our own subsim then! :salute: We'll start out as a small sprout, but evolve into a freaking huge and awesome tall oak tree!
Don't be naive, there won't be such thing as "our subsim". A couple of months ago I've tried to draw some attention and support to the open source project Danger From The Deep (which is still in development mainly because the lack of real support), but with no success, so it's seems that for the majority of the people here Ubi products are just right. Instead of investing so much energy speaking about the crappy and unplayable SH5, it would have been much more constructive to act somehow, to support Danger From The Deep. Like in real life, we are having what we deserve, nothing more and nothing less!

[Sonarman]

Sub Command made by Sonalysts was a submarine simulator

As was Dangerous Waters, but I don't see Sonalysts breaking their neck to make another do you? And neither is any other game company. Why bother when you can make a cute puppy dog game with a third as many devs in a third of the time and sell ten times more copies?

And much as I admire DFTD and all other indie developments they are still along way from being comparable to the SH series. Only Jutland & Distant Guns are cohesive and complete enough to be on the same level and they are truly wargames rather than first person simulations.

The real problem is that companies like EA & Ubi (not the devs but the suits) have stopped listening to their customers and in the economic downturn are focussed on delivering "value" to their shareholders rather than quality product to their customers, big mistake.

[Gunnodayak]

As was Dangerous Waters, but I don't see Sonalysts breaking their neck to make another do you? And neither is any other game company. Why bother when you can make a cute puppy dog game with a third as many devs in a third of the time and sell ten times more copies?
No, they won't make another one, but does not mean that there won't be another company interested to do this kind of product in the near future. For now, Ubi is the only one and as long we are supporting their crappy projects with our wallets like sheep, they have an unofficial monopoly. They made this joke called SH5 just to keep the market "busy", with that slot filled, don't you see? For nobody to try anything in that particular area, so called "niche", which is not so "niche", in fact. Only when the Ubi SH series will die somebody else will come in.

And DFTD is not developing the way it should mainly just because of our LACK of interest. Personally, I would be glad to pay money for their game, and not 50 Euros, but 100, even if it's open source now, just because it's a more healthy project, a cleaner one. Even if it's just in development stage for such a long time. I would like to have a submarine simulation game that I will be able to play for years, and one that should be playable.

[corvette k225]

Have fun with SHV,because I think this will be the last Subsim we will
see. :cry:

[Sonarman]

And DFTD is not developing the way it should just because of our LACK of interest.

I tend to agree I think in many ways the same thing happened to Enigma and now to PT-boats which as Timetraveller recently pointed out is incredibly open could be modded into something worthwhile. But again the companies concerned failed to listen to their customers and are paying the ultimate price.

What we are ending up with now are "toolkits" half finished games with large modding potential but whether they live or die is up to us, not the way it should be but sadly the way it is.

[Gunnodayak]

I tend to agree I think in many ways the same thing happened to Enigma and now to PT-boats which as Timetraveller recently pointed out is incredibly open could be modded into something worthwhile. But again the companies concerned failed to listen to their customers and are paying the ultimate price.

What we are ending up with now are "toolkits" half finished games with large modding potential but whether they live or die is up to us, not the way it should be but sadly the way it is.
I don't know, but maybe somebody here, at subsim, have something to gain from promoting Ubi's products with such a ferocious zeal. Neal have also a responsibility of which I don't know if he is fully aware of: to educate somehow the people interested in naval simulators and to show them in an objective and somehow professional way the possibilities from we can choose something. I tend to expect that from him, as the founder and leader of this forum and site, but maybe I am wrong and I would better lower my expectancies.

[Sonarman]

I don't think so I read Neal's review and it seemed pretty dead on non pandering stuff to me.

And as for me a free copy of "Prince of Persia" is hardly enough incentive to have me kneeling at Yves Guillemot's smelly feet!

[Gunnodayak]

I don't think so I read Neal's review and it seemed pretty dead on non pandering stuff to me.

And as for me a free copy of "Prince of Persia" is hardly enough incentive to have me kneeling at Yves Guillemot's smelly feet!
It's not about the reviews, it's about the number of forum categories related to Ubi's products. The manipulation can be done in a more effective and subliminal way than in some reviews.
I've asked kindly Neal some time ago to think about a potential close collaboration with the devs of Danger From The Deep and he answered me that he needs an email address or something like this for him to be able to make some real contact. I've provided him that information and nothing happened since then. So, it's obvious that a close collaboration with an open source group or a project is not "interesting" ... Instead, we are seeing a lot of volume of the forum categories dedicated to Ubi's products. It's somehow strange, because subsim it's supposed to be a site which also have a forum made and maintained from pleasure, from the heart and it should feel more closely to similar made projects, not to the corporatist ones. Please tell me if you honestly think I am wrong at this one.

[HunterICX]

It's not about the reviews, it's about the number of forum categories related to Ubi's products. The manipulation can be done in a more effective and subliminal way than in some reviews.

Perhaps because Silent Hunter is one of the most played subsim around here?

HunterICX

[Gunnodayak]

Perhaps because Silent Hunter is one of the most played subsim around here?

HunterICX
You can put that the other way around: maybe it's one of the most played JUST because it's so promoted!

[CCIP]

Please tell me if you honestly think I am wrong at this one.

Yes. I think there has been a fairly consistent support for indie subsims here and had DTFD been making the same sorts of marked progress as these commercial developments by Ubi, I think it'd feature just as consistently at the front of the site. "Support" and "cooperation" isn't equivalent to pushing - SH5 simply had more development to report on. Just keep in perspective what Subsim is - a marketing department it certainly ain't.

[Gunnodayak]

Yes.
OK, even I was not asking you in particular, but could you please tell me why do you think that?

[Jimbuna]

I survived my last concerns in September09 coming GWX4 to an end.

After that, if Ubi doesn't care what they serve to community why should we care more ? ...more than Ubi itself.

If your partner doesn't like you any more - ask yourself what have you done to him.

So do you reckon it is a possibility that at the end all that will be left is a modding community completing games that weren't fully finished at release?

Or a different game development company entering the arena perhaps?

[Coldcall]

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

[Gunnodayak]

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition.
This subsim community is a force in some way, it has a lot of dedicated players, and more than this, modders! And all this force that is not being aware of its own force as an entity is being put to "work" for Ubi. I am not talking about the great things they have accomplished for us, they really did that big time, but also, we are somehow a sustaining force for Ubi, and this is manipulation, since Ubi doesn't treat us with respect. It's somehow manipulated in some way, just because the subsim community is not really aware of its force. And this is the moment Neal should act accordingly, as the leader of this community.
What is happening now is not fair, in my opinion. It's not good at all, maybe we should start to see things clearer.

[Bilge_Rat]

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

agreed.

[Sonarman]

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition. This is not fair, in my opinion.

True, but however incomplete you consider SH it's still a lot more complete (in terms of features) than DFTD or Shells of Fury. Of course modders will be more attracted as there is less of the very difficult "dev level" stuff to do. It's a much more advanced platform to start working from.

[Gunnodayak]

True, but however incomplete you consider SH it's still a lot more complete (in terms of features) than DFTD or Shells of Fury. Of course modders will be more attracted as there is less of the very difficult "dev level" stuff to do. It's a much more advanced platform to start working from.
Yes, it is more complete, and i am still playing SH3 GWX, but mainly because of the modders work, but isn't that obvious that the things are getting worse and worse with each incarnation of SH? And isn't that obvious that the lack of respect to the customers is less with each product? Why should we support this kind of company with our wallets, with our ideas, with our hearts and minds? Maybe it's time to put a stop on this and at least try to create a fresh start. With somebody else, anyone else different than Ubi.

[Coldcall]

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition. This is not fair, in my opinion.

WEll I'm all for encouraging another developer to compete with the SH series as clearly there is a good market for a "good" subsim.

Problem with project like "Danger from the deep" is they they are amateur part-time efforts by one man bands. And i dont mean that in a bad way, but from a commercial perspective its not going to happen.

A subsim of the SH quality (leaving aside the problems) needs a commercial dev/gaphics team contracted for 2-3 years. Minimum team of 20-25 fulltime devs and artists.

Now i think this is perfectly feasible but one needs to organise the funding and a project manager who has experience FINNISHING complex software projects. There are just too many folks who can start well enough, but will burn out before the project is ready and then you end up with half finnished game that cost a few million, and no immediate route for the return on investment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, show me a project lead who has a track record of doing the business, and i would have no problem pitching UK VC houses for funding. This is what i do for a living for my B2B software apps clients, so i know it can be done.

However i would want to put some of my own money into the project wso i would want to be sure the team that is being assembled arent wishy washy and likely to abandon the project midway.

That is my biggest concern.

[Sonarman]

We are as they say "caught between a rock and a hard place" as SH5 proves, a lot of us have bought it however unfinished. We are in their pocket and they know it. However the general buyers are not and it is they not us who will determine the future for the series and Ubi has let them down even more than us by foolishly rushing the game out and penny pinching on manuals, their more accessible game is actually much less accessible than previous titles.

[Sonarman]

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?

[Gunnodayak]

WEll I'm all for encouraging another developer to compete with the SH series as clearly there is a good market for a "good" subsim.

Problem with project like "Danger from the deep" is they they are amateur part-time efforts by one man bands. And i dont mean that in a bad way, but from a commercial perspective its not going to happen.

A subsim of the SH quality (leaving aside the problems) needs a commercial dev/gaphics team contracted for 2-3 years. Minimum team of 20-25 fulltime devs and artists.

Now i think this is perfectly feasible but one needs to organise the funding and a project manager who has experience FINNISHING complex software projects. There are just too many folks who can start well enough, but will burn out before the project is ready and then you end up with half finnished game that cost a few million, and no immediate route for the return on investment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, show me a project lead who has a track record of doing the business, and i would have no problem pitching UK VC houses for funding. This is what i do for a living for my B2B software apps clients, so i know it can be done.

However i would want to put some of my own money into the project wso i would want to be sure the team that is being assembled arent wishy washy and likely to abandon the project midway.

That is my biggest concern.
I agree with you, the things are not so simple, but I think we have no reason to continue go in the direction that some of us agree is already proven wrong. And this is the moment the community can unite and go into another direction, and even CREATE another one. it's not easy, on the contrary, it's hard, but not impossible. I am giving just a simple and at hand example, accesible for everybody, showing some interest towards Danger From The Deep forum would probably make the developers more motivated.

[Gunnodayak]

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?
Sh5 is not a simulator, don't you agree? I would pay much more than 50 euros for a well made simulator. And please, don't "serve" me that line with "niche market", it's not so niche ...

[Jimbuna]

Yes, it is more complete, and i am still playing SH3 GWX, but mainly because of the modders work, but isn't that obvious that the things are getting worse and worse with each incarnation of SH? And isn't that obvious that the lack of respect to the customers is less with each product? Why should we support this kind of company with our wallets, with our ideas, with our hearts and minds? Maybe it's time to put a stop on this and create a fresh start. With somebody else, anyone else different than Ubi.

I don't see anyone being forced into a position of supporting Ubi.

Ubi are the only game developer with their hat in the ring regarding WWII U-boat simulations.

I accept your description regarding the icompleteness of recent releases but I would also point out that people aren't taking it 'lying down'....there are many threads and posts on view that show the disdain at the quality of the SH5 release. There are however, many of the opposite opinion/viewpoint.

In the main it has been left to post release patches and the efforts of the modding community to make each release more enjoyable/complete/immersive (insert your own description).

What you would like to see is a culture change....a new or different beginning.

That will only come about if and when Ubi withdraw from the genre or a new games developer arrives on the scene.

I'm trying to maintain a neutral stance (difficult at times addmitedly) because of my previous involvement but am prepared to support anything or anybody who enhance the sub simming experience.

[Coldcall]

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?

I dont think it says anything at all about the PC sim market. It says something about the disasterous DRM backfiring because Assasins Creed 2 is also being reduced in a big way, and that is a perfectly populist genre.

[Gunnodayak]

I don't see anyone being forced into a position of supporting Ubi.

Ubi are the only game developer with their hat in the ring regarding WWII U-boat simulations.

I accept your description regarding the icompleteness of recent releases but I would also point out that people aren't taking it 'lying down'....there are many threads and posts on view that show the disdain at the quality of the SH5 release. There are however, many of the opposite opinion/viewpoint.

In the main it has been left to post release patches and the efforts of the modding community to make each release more enjoyable/complete/immersive (insert your own description).

What you would like to see is a culture change....a new or different beginning.

That will only come about if and when Ubi withdraw from the genre or a new games developer arrives on the scene.

I'm trying to maintain a neutral stance (difficult at times addmitedly) because of my previous involvement but am prepared to support anything or anybody who enhance the sub simming experience.
I understand your position well, and I know you and other folks made GREAT GREAT things for this community cleaning Ubi's mess, and I know you can't say all that you have in mind or all that you feel. But I can afford this "luxury", I am not a disruptor of the "order", it's just that I am not so happy with the direction things are going, and I know that I am not the only one here.
I want you to understand, I play SH3 GWX mainly because of you and others like you , with the stock Ubi product I've played one hour and it was enough for me...
But I hope you are clever enough to know that without myself telling you that. I suppose you know that GWX, LSH, WAC teams made the game playable for a lot of members here.

[Bilge_Rat]

As was Dangerous Waters, but I don't see Sonalysts breaking their neck to make another do you? And neither is any other game company. Why bother when you can make a cute puppy dog game with a third as many devs in a third of the time and sell ten times more copies?

And much as I admire DFTD and all other indie developments they are still along way from being comparable to the SH series. Only Jutland & Distant Guns are cohesive and complete enough to be on the same level and they are truly wargames rather than first person simulations.

The real problem is that companies like EA & Ubi (not the devs but the suits) have stopped listening to their customers and in the economic downturn are focussed on delivering "value" to their shareholders rather than quality product to their customers, big mistake.

Agreed. Much as I like the SH series, I can't help feeling SH5 is the last of the line. If you examine SH5, its hard not to see that its an orphan at Ubisoft.

On the one hand, it contains many true sim improvements the community has wanted for a long time: full 3d interior, wolfpacks, U-tankers, enemy subs, better moddability, scripting, better mission editor. It has many under the hood tweaks: AI scripts, apparently better underwater sonar modelling, underwater drag, etc. All of these elements have the potential (with a lot of TLC) to turn SH5 into a great sub sim.

On the other hand, it contains a crew management/RPG model which appears to have been tacked on and obviously does not belong in a subsim.

You can sense a war between the people at Ubisoft who really want to make a sim and those who just want to dump the project and move on to more profitable projects they can sell on consoles. Its obviously the non-sim execs who came up with the idea of trying to turn it into a RPG clone that could appeal to a more casual crowd.

The result is the worst case scenario we see now: SH5 is rejected by the casual gamers and the subsim community, reviews are poor, sales are poor, the game is dumped on the market. The next step is for Ubisoft to shut down the franchise and exit the sim market.

As for someone else coming into the market and producing a new subsim, I personally don't see it. The market fo sims is small and the biggest market share is in flight sims followed by land combat sims. The market for subsims is very small. None of the existing small developpers have the interest to develop naval war sims or even the capacity to produce something as good as SH5 is in its current state without a major investment.

[Jimbuna]

I understand your position well, and I know you and other folks made GREAT GREAT things for this community cleaning Ubi's mess, and I know you can't say all that you have in mind or all that you feel. But I can afford this "luxury", I am not a disruptor of the "order", it's just that I am not so happy with the direction things are going, and I know that I am not the only one here.
I want you to understand, I play SH3 GWX because of you and others like you mainly, with the stock Ubi product I've played one hour and it was enough for me...

Then we share a clear understanding of each others position and viewpoints.

Mutual respect and understanding is one of the foundation blocks that makes this community such a great/special place.

SINK EM ALL!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif


http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Coldcall]

I agree with you, the things are not so simple, but I think we have no reason to continue go in the direction that some of us agree is already proven wrong. And this is the moment the community can unite and go into another direction, and even CREATE another one. it's not easy, on the contrary, it's hard, but not impossible. I am giving just a simple and at hand example, accesible for everybody, showing some interest towards Danger From The Deep forum would probably make the developers more motivated.

Yes i agree but the "community" will have to become a commercial dev team because you can not produce an SH game on a part-time amateur night in dixie budget.

Folks working on such a high end title need to be paid WELL, so they fully commit to the project. They need to know the money is there for wages and to keep it all going until the day a good finnished product can be released.

I dont see that happening with a community of modders, no matter how talented.

[Nordmann]

I dont think it says anything at all about the PC sim market. It says something about the disasterous DRM backfiring because Assasins Creed 2 is also being reduced in a big way, and that is a perfectly populist genre.

I suspect that this is the real reason we have seen prices plummet so soon after release. Regardless of the consistently negative reviews SH5 has received, I seem to remember SH3 and 4 being just as incomplete and bug ridden, yet becoming immensely popular despite their numerous issues. In fact, I could hardly play either until the mod community started to work their magic. Frankly, I suspected nothing would change with SH5, that's just the way it's always been with this title. Granted, they could have done a lot better, but then again, I tend to feel like that with a lot of games these days (especially so called simulations).

Some people are claiming that poor sales will mean the end of Silent Hunter, yet I'm sure SH4 was not as popular as SH3, yet they clearly made enough money, and thought that there was enough demand for another game. Don't forget the expansion, which while small in nature, still demanded time and effort from the developers. Therefore, I see no reason why this should be the end, assuming money can still be made (they are a business after all).

The real clincher in all of this, despite claims to the contrary, was definitely the net connection fiasco. I have spoken to friends of mine, who have outright refused to buy any games coupled with such a system, and these are people who have previously put up with StarForce and SecuRom without complaint. Obviously the negative press surrounding this issue has not done anything to help their sales, and honestly, they only have themselves to blame. Many of us called this situation before it was really known about, and sadly we were proved right. I'm surprised they didn't realise the trouble it would cause, but I suppose they misjudged the unpopularity of such strict requirements.

If this is to be the last Silent Hunter, then that's just the way it is. Nothing we could have done would change Ubi's mind, because at the end of the day, they are only concerned with profit. This is something which is far more complex than the oft repeated "buy the game, or they won't make more!" argument.

In any case, we now have three sub games, two of which have already been heavily modded, and another which has 'potential'. That should be more than enough to keep most of us occupied should Ubi decide to pull the plug once and for all.

[Coldcall]

Some people are claiming that poor sales will mean the end of Silent Hunter, yet I'm sure SH4 was not as popular as SH3, yet they clearly made enough money, and thought that there was enough demand for another game. Don't forget the expansion, which while small in nature, still demanded time and effort from the developers. Therefore, I see no reason why this should be the end, assuming money can still be made (they are a business after all).

Ubisoft would not continue making the games if there was no money in them. SH5 even with poor sales will probbaly make a reasonable profit. Do remember that dev costs in Romania are very cheap compared to the same costs in Western Europe or US/Canada.

A 1 or 2 million dollar budget in Romania will buy you alot of devs and artists.

So the idea that Ubi are doing us all some favour by producing a loss making game is typical corporate pr bunk.

[Nordmann]

Ubisoft would not continue making the games if there was no money in them. SH5 even with poor sales will probbaly make a reasonable profit. Do remember that dev costs in Romania are very cheap compared to the same costs in Western Europe or US/Canada.

A 1 or 2 million dollar budget in Romania will buy you alot of devs and artists.

So the idea that Ubi are doing us all some favour by producing a loss making game is typical corporate pr bunk.

Yes exactly, that's my point. If there was no money in this genre, then they would have stopped with SH3. Clearly that is not the case, so why should SH5, despite it's current problems, be any different is that respect?

[Gunnodayak]

Ubisoft would not continue making the games if there was no money in them. SH5 even with poor sales will probbaly make a reasonable profit. Do remember that dev costs in Romania are very cheap compared to the same costs in Western Europe or US/Canada.

A 1 or 2 million dollar budget in Romania will buy you alot of devs and artists.

So the idea that Ubi are doing us all some favour by producing a loss making game is typical corporate pr bunk.
Stay chill, they didn't invested that much in SH5, they invested a few hundreds of thousands euros from my sources. With 2 millions you would make a simulator for NASA in 6 months.

[Coldcall]

Yes exactly, that's my point. If there was no money in this genre, then they would have stopped with SH3. Clearly that is not the case, so why should SH5, despite it's current problems, be any different is that respect?

Ya good point They;ve released 3 sub sims since 2005. Hardly signs of a dead market :-)

The only reason they might drop the franchise is if they werent satisfied with the profit margin , based on what they were spending on dev and marketing. So whereas Ubi might think a 20% margin on a spend of $3million ($600,000) is pittance compared to what some games return, to a smaller dev house that would be a decent outcome. All devs and artists well paid and profit to boot.

[Adam84]

Yeah noticed the price drop this morning. This ALMOST makes me want to go buy the game! I was so close to buying it at full price too when it first came out, under a month later and the price has plummeted...not sure whether to be happy or sad.

[Coldcall]

Stay chill, they didn't invested that much in SH5, they invested a few hundreds of thousands euros from my sources. With 2 millions you would make a simulator for NASA in 6 months.

If you are correct with that figure then that blows my mind, because 200,000 sales at $50 per sale is $10million. Ubisoft would have a great margin in that case and the fact they complain is unbeleivable. It also indicates the blatant profiteering they have engaged in by releasing these games early. There was clearly no need as the profit marguin was huge. They could have simply taken 2 more months to QA the game. At the rates you menntioned that would have cost them an extra few tens of thousands, nothing compared to the ROI.

PS: Do you know the devs? If so, seriosuly ask them if they have ever considered going off on their own. If they sound interested, please let me know.

[TDK1044]

I think the reality is that Ubisoft's arrogance finally caught up with them with this release.

This Publisher has a history with this franchise of throwing unfinished, buggy games onto the market, which then need significant patching in order to get them to where they should have been at release.

With Silent Hunter 5, Ubisoft took their arrogance to a new level. Not only is this game the usual buggy mess, it also requires that you connect to totally unreliable Ubisoft servers in order to play it. Add to that the fact that the game is targeted at a new demographic that doesn't seem very interested in buying it, and you have the perfect storm....something that ironically Ubisoft has been unable to create in any of the Silent Hunter games :)

For some to claim that the current fiasco it is the fault of those of us who have been critical of Ubisoft, is nonsense.

If this game is the final offering in the Silent Hunter series....so be it. Give us a patch to allow us to play it offline, and we'll heavily mod it just like we modded SHIII and SHIV.

I'm so over this 'be nice to Ubisoft because they are the only Publisher producing subsims' argument. It looks to me like SH5 is very modable...we just need to be able to play it offline in order to really enjoy it. :)

[Nordmann]

Yeah noticed the price drop this morning. This ALMOST makes me want to go buy the game! I was so close to buying it at full price too when it first came out, under a month later and the price has plummeted...not sure whether to be happy or sad.

At £12.98, despite the net requirement, I'd say it's probably worth buying. I went ahead and ordered myself a copy, just in case Amazon do not replenish their stocks. If prices continue to drop here and elsewhere, I see no reason why Ubi would need to continue using Uplay for this product, there would really be no point. In fact, I expect it will be gone in a few months time, just as with SH3 and StarForce.

I don't like DRM, but for £12.98, it's less of an issue for me. My stance was based on value, as such a system is not in my opinion worthy of a £20 price tag. Ubi have done themselves no favours, but it may all blow over in 6 months time (here's hoping).

[Onkel Neal]

I'm so over this 'be nice to Ubisoft because they are the only Publisher producing subsims' argument. It looks to me like SH5 is very modable...we just need to be able to play it offline in order to really enjoy it. :)

I automatically assume this is directed to me :O: (and that's fine), but I do want to point out that I have always maintained that we should be nice to any publisher that makes a decent submarine game, not only Ubisoft. And by "be nice", of course no one means "unconditional love". But we should try not to adopt a hostile, unreasonable attitude. We should separate ourselves as subsim enthusiasts from the militant consumers that judge everything purely on the weight of their hard earned money© It is possible to be critical AND nice....

I like to "be nice" to everyone! :yeah:

(When possible).




Ya good point They;ve released 3 sub sims since 2005. Hardly signs of a dead market :-)

The only reason they might drop the franchise is if they werent satisfied with the profit margin , based on what they were spending on dev and marketing. So whereas Ubi might think a 20% margin on a spend of $3million ($600,000) is pittance compared to what some games return, to a smaller dev house that would be a decent outcome. All devs and artists well paid and profit to boot.

I wonder how much impact there is on the aspect that there are some really fanatical history buffs and submarine-loving devs in Bucharest.... :06: You know what I mean? If the guys in Ubi Romania that are passionate about submarine warfare were not around, would Ubi have made SH3, 4, 5 ? Or, did those games, especially SH4 and 5, see the light of day mainly because Ubisoft knows they have a valuable resource and decided to utilize it? I imagine there is a big fixed cost in getting educated about the millions of historical details a sub simulation like SH3-5, and now that the FC has been invested, Ubi thinks they should keep it invested....

Just a thought.....

[Coldcall]

At £12.98, despite the net requirement, I'd say it's probably worth buying. I went ahead and ordered myself a copy, just in case Amazon do not replenish their stocks. If prices continue to drop here and elsewhere, I see no reason why Ubi would need to continue using Uplay for this product, there would really be no point. In fact, I expect it will be gone in a few months time, just as with SH3 and StarForce.

I don't like DRM, but for £12.98, it's less of an issue for me. My stance was based on value, as such a system is not in my opinion worthy of a £20 price tag. Ubi have done themselves no favours, but it may all blow over in 6 months time (here's hoping).

I bought the game for full retail and i still think its worth it (even with all the problems), so yeah at £12 its an absolute steal. Of course that is if one is sort of obsessed by submarine sims like US :-)

But frankly its an insult to the devs who clearly poured hours and sweat into the game that their work is already being offed at more than 50% price reduction just because Ubi's insitence on the DRM and releasing it early.

[Coldcall]

I wonder how much impact there is on the aspect that there are some really fanatical history buffs and submarine-loving devs in Bucharest.... :06: You know what I mean? If the guys in Ubi Romania that are passionate about submarine warfare were not around, would Ubi have made SH3, 4, 5 ? Or, did those games, especially SH4 and 5, see the light of day mainly because Ubisoft knows they have a valuable resource and decided to utilize it? I imagine there is a big fixed cost in getting educated about the millions of historical details a sub simulation like SH3-5, and now that the FC has been invested, Ubi thinks they should keep it invested....

Just a thought.....

I think that is very likely the truth of the matter. Someone in Romania clearly loves making subsims (and is bloody good at it) and i think their talent is being wasted working for Ubi.

I feel sorry for that dev team because if they are emotionally attached to the subsim genre then they must be at wits end with how the release and post-rlease has been handled.

You know this so reminds me of how music publishers treat their artists and why companies like EMI are today on their last legs.

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

[Nordmann]

I bought the game for full retail and i still think its worth it (even with all the problems), so yeah at £12 its an absolute steal. Of course that is if one is sort of obsessed by submarine sims like US :-)

That was what I thought, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

But frankly its an insult to the devs who clearly poured hours and sweat into the game that their work is already being offed at more than 50% price reduction just because Ubi's insitence on the DRM and releasing it early.

Well, only Amazon have lowered their prices thus far, so it may not be all that widespread. I've been buying games from them for 6 years for this very reason, they are extremely reasonable. Whether or not anyone else will reduce SH5 and AC2 remains to be seen.

[Coldcall]

That was what I thought, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Well, only Amazon have lowered their prices thus far, so it may not be all that widespread. I've been buying games from them for 6 years for this very reason, they are extremely reasonable. Whether or not anyone else will reduce SH5 and AC2 remains to be seen.

Ya Play.com is still selling it a near full retail, but it wont last because everyone will buy at Amazon if they dont lower the price. Its almost 50% less at Amazon, crazy.

You know, though i've criticised SH5 (release) heavily, i still think its a work of art. Im on it 4 or 5 hours per day, and not bored yet even with the catalogue of issues. I can only imagine how great SH5 would have been, had it been treated with the respect it deserves and released much more finnished and non-buggy.

[Bilge_Rat]

If you are correct with that figure then that blows my mind, because 200,000 sales at $50 per sale is $10million. Ubisoft would have a great margin in that case and the fact they complain is unbeleivable. It also indicates the blatant profiteering they have engaged in by releasing these games early. There was clearly no need as the profit marguin was huge. They could have simply taken 2 more months to QA the game. At the rates you menntioned that would have cost them an extra few tens of thousands, nothing compared to the ROI.



I dont think its such an easy calculation. Most of Ubisoft's sales are to retailers who negotiate a price based on their network and the potential sales, so I would say a average sales price by Ubi between say $15-25 may make more sense. Perhaps more on the lower end, since some retailers seem to already be dumping their stocks. Since some retailers seem to be accepting returns with no hassle, I presume they also have a deal to get a refund from Ubi.

Sales of sh3 were around 200,000, sales of sh4 were around 100,000 total. If sales of SH5 are only as high as, say sh4, which seems a reasonable assumption. We have gross revenues of $1,500,000 to $2,500,000. From that you have to detect salary, marketing and other costs at Ubi corporate, so even if they only paid say 500k to Ubi Romania, we are still not talking about a huge profit.

When you look at it this way, it also shows why Ubi acts the way they do. The keep the development cost and time to a minimum to be certain to turn a profit.

Obviously if they had more sales, they could afford to spend more money on it.

[jdkbph]

If you are correct with that figure then that blows my mind, because 200,000 sales at $50 per sale is $10million.

Well, discounting the recent proce drop, even at $50 per copy you have to understand that includes not only development costs but marketing, packaging, distribution, retail mark-ups, etc., etc..

And also keep in mind that the question isn't so much whether or not the game makes money, but how much money does it make relative to other, more mainstream projects? Games like Assassin's Creed 2, Prince of Persia, and their ilk, most likely yield a much higher return on investment of those same resources.

JD

[Jonin]

Still showing 49$ for Amazon in the US. I'm not buying it because of the DRM, but if it drops down low enough, I may give it a shot. If they'd just drop that DRM, I'd go out and get it today.

[Nordmann]

Still showing 49$ for Amazon in the US. I'm not buying it because of the DRM, but if it drops down low enough, I may give it a shot. If they'd just drop that DRM, I'd go out and get it today.

Indeed, give it some time, the US Amazon tends to be somewhat slow to catch on. I don't know what it is about the States, but you always seem to get hit with higher prices for games than here in the UK, at least in my experience. Tax perhaps?

[TDK1044]

[QUOTE=Neal Stevens;1334968]I automatically assume this is directed to me :O: (and that's fine), but I do want to point out that I have always maintained that we should be nice to any publisher that makes a decent submarine game, not only Ubisoft. And by "be nice", of course no one means "unconditional love". But we should try not to adopt a hostile, unreasonable attitude. We should separate ourselves as subsim enthusiasts from the militant consumers that judge everything purely on the weight of their hard earned money© It is possible to be critical AND nice....

I like to "be nice" to everyone! :yeah:

(When possible). [QUOTE]

No, not at all, Neal. You have a unique position in your relationship with Ubisoft and I hold you in the highest regard. I was referring to members here who are so desparate to have any kind of sub sim, that they will turn a blind eye to just about everything in order to get the new game in any condition Ubisoft releases it in.

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell! :)

[Nordmann]

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

Yes, rather like SH3 and 4 on release, and people still play those games.

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell! :)

Well, I wouldn't pay full price for it, and I haven't. I tend to avoid anything above £20, unless it's really worth the price tag, which most are not. Still, it seems that the national mental health facilities are going to be very busy this month!

[Coldcall]

I dont think its such an easy calculation. Most of Ubisoft's sales are to retailers who negotiate a price based on their network and the potential sales, so I would say a average sales price by Ubi between say $15-25 may make more sense. Perhaps more on the lower end, since some retailers seem to already be dumping their stocks. Since some retailers seem to be accepting returns with no hassle, I presume they also have a deal to get a refund from Ubi.

Sales of sh3 were around 200,000, sales of sh4 were around 100,000 total. If sales of SH5 are only as high as, say sh4, which seems a reasonable assumption. We have gross revenues of $1,500,000 to $2,500,000. From that you have to detect salary, marketing and other costs at Ubi corporate, so even if they only paid say 500k to Ubi Romania, we are still not talking about a huge profit.

When you look at it this way, it also shows why Ubi acts the way they do. The keep the development cost and time to a minimum to be certain to turn a profit.

Obviously if they had more sales, they could afford to spend more money on it.

Absolutely, the figures are very fluid in that we dont know exactly what the average per copy sale is when taking into account all costs, promotions etc..

But even worst case scenario they are making money even on the lesser 100,000 estimate. And if SH4 only sold 100,000 then clearly it made them money because they returned 2/3 years after with this release.

Anyways, my point being, any suitably committed and *experienced* dev team could produce a profit making subsim. And further if it was less concerned about impatient demands from its corproate paymasters it would likely release a less buggy initial product. QA could be almost totally outsourced to a group of subsimmers who would put the game through its paces better than any internal qa teams.

Another thing i was wondering is what development project methodology thise guys are using in Romania. If they switched to an Agile approach you sort of betatest on the hoof incrementally as the software sort of evolves. Very darwinian approach to software dev. Im not a techiwe but i sel Agile consultancy services to corp devlopment teams working on B2b applications. Software devloped with Agile techniques instead of the old Prince 2 PPMs, are way more robust even at beta stage before qa testing on finalised build.

Anyways would love to see a break way occur just because even if Ubi continue doing a SH series, they need some competition and we will end up with a bettr subsim from one or the others.

[Onkel Neal]

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

[Nordmann]

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

Yes, exactly. Even indie companies tend to go with a publisher if they want their game to reach a wider audience. It's a necessary evil.

[Coldcall]

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

There is plenty of funding out there for a well put together pitch, led by a dev team that has a track record. Thats the key. I on my own could not go to a VC and say i have a great idea etc....However with a project lead from SH5 it would be a total walk in the park, the figures would just need to be right. If as one poster said Ubi merely put a few hundred thousand euros into development then that is small change to an investor.

Not being funny but i could probably scrape that together on my own :-)

I was thinking you need atleast a million quid or so, but apprently that doesnt seem to be the case.

Of course marketing and promotions costs money too, but with communties like subsim, simhq. combatsim, and maybe some good reviews (that would be a first :-) one can be creative these days and not spend the sort of money EA and Ubi do on marketing. Actually from what Ive heard Ubi totally negelected US marketing for SH5 simply so im not sure they are spending that much on marketing SH5 anyway.

Im not saying one can wave a wand and all this is easy, but dedicated folks, who have the experience could do this if they were determined. Gaming is a growing industry and alot of VC houses who use to lend money for financial type investments are now looking at other avenues of investment.

[Bilge_Rat]

Another option would be to get in bed with the devil and make a deal with Ubisoft. SH5 has everything we need to create a ultra-realistic subsim and it is always easier to build on existing code than start from scratch.

Say a new company employing talented modders enters into a joint venture with Ubi to turn SH5 into a more hardcore sim and sell it as a new product, with profits to be split.

That approach has been successful in the past with, for example, "Falcon 4: Allied Force" and "War in the Pacific: Admiral's edition". In both cases, modders who had been working on the games for free approached the software owner and worked out a deal.

I would have no problem forking over another $50 for SH5:Hardcore edition.

[Coldcall]

so why's everyone scared of going independent? I did so years ago, walked out of my job and started my own business. I had to overcome an inherent fear of failure to do it, but once i did it there was no turning back. Yes, as he says in Dune, "fear is the killer". Fear will stop you doing many things in life you will one day regret not having tried

Im not trying to make this some sort of lifechanging speech but for gawds sakes, humanity is built upon the actions of small groups and indiviauls, not large statist or corproate entities. Microsoft, Google all started a small independents. Look at them today.

Anways i dont understand why anyone chooses to work for someone else as in being employed by them, if they have the skills that are valuable then they can go and do it on their own, by their own set of principles.

In the case of SH5. If thats the same group of devs doing the Sh titles then im really surpsied they havent flown the coop. Its not them who need Ubi, its Ubi who needs them.

What they cant develop the game but in a certified Ubisoft office? They are satisified that Ubi will take the majority of profit, skim it off the top and pay the dev team like if they were plumbers? My view is that the art and work that has gone into SH series is by rights of natural justice the property of the devs and artists.

The music industry for many years treated music artists with the same sort of, we own all the rights crap, and if you look at EA and Ubi today they have done the same thing. Publishers owning all rights including release decisions about the work created by others.

And yes im a capitalist :-)

[The Enigma]

I would have no problem forking over another $50 for SH5:Hardcore edition.

Me neither, but there should also be room to discuss what method of copy protection should be implemented in such version. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[Coldcall]

Another option would be to get in bed with the devil and make a deal with Ubisoft. SH5 has everything we need to create a ultra-realistic subsim and it is always easier to build on existing code than start from scratch.

Say a new company employing talented modders enters into a joint venture with Ubi to turn SH5 into a more hardcore sim and sell it as a new product, with profits to be split.

That approach has been successful in the past with, for example, "Falcon 4: Allied Force" and "War in the Pacific: Admiral's edition". In both cases, modders who had been working on the games for free approached the software owner and worked out a deal.

I would have no problem forking over another $50 for SH5:Hardcore edition.

Thats defintiely an option for SH5, and i too would have no probs forking over full retail for an SH5 conversion.

[Bilge_Rat]

Me neither, but there should also be room to discuss what method of copy protection should be implemented in such version. :p2:

DRM free, of course..:|\\

[609_Avatar]

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

Just to be fair here, and I don't even own the game (my brother-in-law does and has played the past few days though and I've read tons of stuff here), but describing it as a "buggy mess that's barely playable" is going a bit too far. Yes, there are plenty of bugs, some won't even be noticed by newbies (my brother-in-law said it was really cool when he was leaving port and saw a few damaged ships in harbor trying to maneuver which he attributed to an allied air attack, until I told him it was bad AI that caused them to crash into the docks...) but it is hardly "barely playable" as many people are playing it daily for hours without crashes, etc. You might be more "demanding" than others it terms of what you call acceptable, and I'm probably close to that in some regards, but it's playable, maybe just not enjoyable because of spotting bugs, like the ships crashing in port for example. Without modding it is a lot worse, like you state, but is still playable, just frustrating for many. I know, semantics and all, but people will take you at your word and that's just not literally true what you stated from all that I've heard. I do whole heartedly agree that without modders this series would probably already be dead with SHIV.

[The General]

my brother-in-law said it was really cool when he was leaving port and saw a few damaged ships in harbor trying to maneuver which he attributed to an allied air attack, until I told him it was bad AI that caused them to crash into the docks...)Aww, your Brother-in-law was quite happy, blissfully unaware.

I enjoyed reading your post. The sad truth is that some people on this site get more enjoyment from criticizing a game they haven't even played, or the people that do play the game, than contributing constructively to this website or to the FUTURE of the series (Mentioning no names: ;)). Put me im the Brig if you want! All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!

[thyro]

All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!


I'll submit your name to Pope to make a saint of you. The crusades are no more but you never know if it won't start tomorrow. Beside is good to have defenders whatever are the causes :)

[The General]

my brother-in-law said it was really cool when he was leaving port and saw a few damaged ships in harbor trying to maneuver which he attributed to an allied air attack, until I told him it was bad AI that caused them to crash into the docks...)Aww, your Brother-in-law was quite happy, blissfully unaware.

I enjoyed reading your post. The sad truth is that some people on this site get more enjoyment from criticizing a game they haven't even played, or the people that do play the game, than contributing constructively to this website or to the FUTURE of the series (Mentioning no names: Carotio & Nordmann ;). Put me im the Brig if you want! All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!

[thyro]

Thats defintiely an option for SH5, and i too would have no probs forking over full retail for an SH5 conversion.

Why would a modder waste time on SH5 as it stands at moment, bugged with not useful interface mechanics and half game. For tiny/small changes ok but for considerable complex mods, players will have to endure months if not years untill SH5 gets completed (if it gets completed).


writing a complex mod such as adding missing historical features to SH5 atm would be a waste of time... isn't matter of consider or not but the fact is this is half a game whatever you like it or not.

[Commie]

Aww, your Brother-in-law was quite happy, blissfully unaware.

I enjoyed reading your post. The sad truth is that some people on this site get more enjoyment from criticizing a game they haven't even played, or the people that do play the game, than contributing constructively to this website or to the FUTURE of the series (Mentioning no names: ;). Put me im the Brig if you want! All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!

Why the brig? It's funny to think that despite all you slavish devotion to UBI and the GROFAZ of games that is SH5, the game and you will be treated with contempt by UBI who will decide that instead of a patch they'll just make you pay for an expansion which will fix a couple of things and add content that will be useless anyway. This is what happened with Empire Total War, and the sad thing is that there are enough fanatics like yourself that will lap up these things thus making the publisher feel vindicated in their strategy.

[Bilge_Rat]

Why wound a modder waste time on SH5 as it stands at moment, bugged with not useful interface mechanics and half game.

That is not really accurate. All the basics of the game are there and they pretty much all work. There are a number of bugs: morale bug in campaign, stadimeter bug, missing commands, AI script issues which are well known. Hopefully these will be fixed in a patch. Some others can be adressed by modders. Some may call me biased (which would not be the first time) but I would say the game is 95% finished. It is perfectly playable as is, but these bugs make it less enjoyable to true subsimmers.

Then there are the larger issues of realism of the sub, crew, weapons, enemy AI, campaign which existed in SH3/4 as well. This is more an issue of tweaking by the modders, many of which are already hard at work. Thankfully the Devs have made SH5 much more moddable so this is an easier task.

[janh]

AThe sad truth is that some people on this site get more enjoyment from criticizing a game they haven't even played, or the people that do play the game, than contributing constructively to this website or to the FUTURE of the series (Mentioning no names: ;)).

I agree that it is time for the people to listen more than bark. But if my personal impression during the past roughly 7-10 days is right, they are not complaining anymore. It has become mostly owners of SHV that post threads like "...hate that ****, don't play it anymore", or "go back to SHIII now, good bye" (or along these lines). Correct me if my impression is wrong, but the people denting it right now with (re)new(ed) arguments are mainly actual players.

[Bilge_Rat]

I agree that it is time for the people to listen more than bark. But if my personal impression during the past roughly 7-10 days is right, they are not complaining anymore. It has become mostly owners of SHV that post threads like "...hate that ****, don't play it anymore", or "go back to SHIII now, good bye" (or along these lines). Correct me if my impression is wrong, but the people denting it right now with (re)new(ed) arguments are mainly actual players.

I would not say that. I would say there are still extremists on both sides, as you can see just in this thread (and I have also sometimes been guilty of that).

But on the whole I think we can see the forum getting slowly back to normal, where we will be able to calmly discuss the game and its issues, without sparks flying all the time...:ping:

[Gunnodayak]

so why's everyone scared of going independent? I did so years ago, walked out of my job and started my own business.
Most of you are ignoring the elephant in the room in this matter. Why they will not go independent? One of the main reasons is that because they are not so good you think they are. It's very convenient for them to hide behind some Ubi marketing decision. You have the tendency to see them as "saints", but they are full of "sins". Alexandru Gris, the head project responsible, is not even with its feet down on Earth, he is very happy of the final product as result of its team work, he told me that, and if somebody think that I am lying, I can prove that. He told everybody, to his friends, to his relative, what a good project he finished.
Dan (elanaiba), on the otherside, have a little more decency than Alexandru, but he is not a saint either.
So please, try to stop separate those two entities, Ubi suits and Ubi devs, they belong to the same mother company, and the responsibility of success and failure belongs to all of them. No Ubi suit is responsible for the major bugs in the game, like morale system and so on, arcadish as it is.

Anyway, as I've told earlier today, some of you fully deserve SH5. Understand what you want from that conclusion of mine.

[Coldcall]

Most of you are ignoring the elephant in the room in this matter. Why they will not go independent? One of the main reasons is that because they are not so good you think they are. It's very convenient for them to hide behind some Ubi marketing decision. You have the tendency to see them as "saints", but they are full of "sins". Alexandru Gris, the head project responsible, is not even with its feet down on Earth, he is very happy of the final product as result of its team work, he told me that, and if somebody think that I am lying, I can prove that. He told everybody, to his friends, to his relative, what a good project he finished.
Dan (elanaiba), on the otherside, have a little more decency than Alexandru, but he is not a saint either.
So please, try to stop separate those two entities, Ubi suits and Ubi devs, they belong to the same mother company, and the responsibility of success and failure belongs to all of them. No Ubi suit is responsible for the major bugs in the game, like morale system and so on, arcadish as it is.

Anyway, as I've told earlier today, some of you fully deserve SH5. Understand what you want from that conclusion of mine.

No I dont see them as saints but i do think that if you wanted to create a new subsim from scratch those Romanian guys are a good bet to do it.

Also its far easier to get funding for a software project if you can show what was done before, and that this would be the same crew doing the new game.

[janh]

That is not really accurate. All the basics of the game are there and they pretty much all work. There are a number of bugs: morale bug in campaign, stadimeter bug, missing commands, AI script issues which are well known. Hopefully these will be fixed in a patch. Some others can be adressed by modders. Some may call me biased (which would not be the first time) but I would say the game is 95% finished. It is perfectly playable as is, but these bugs make it less enjoyable to true subsimmers.

Then there are the larger issues of realism of the sub, crew, weapons, enemy AI, campaign which existed in SH3/4 as well. This is more an issue of tweaking by the modders, many of which are already hard at work. Thankfully the Devs have made SH5 much more moddable so this is an easier task.


Question since you seem to know: Is the basic functionality present that will allow to script a 43-45 extension of the campaign with all the necessary technology and units needed for the late time frame, i.e. acoustic torpedoes, foxers, hedgehogs, etc?

[Zedi]

Gunnodayak, u still keep bashing the devs for some unknown reason. For me, the only responsible for this epic fail is only Ubi. I mean, u must be blind or something if you can't see that this is an unfinished product. There is no excuse for Ubi to launch a game with only the graphic part finished. They are the publishers, they should know better if a game is ready or not for release, is their job.

[janh]

[QUOTE=Gunnodayak;1335254] uups, deleted.

[Nordmann]

I would not say that. I would say there are still extremists on both sides, as you can see just in this thread (and I have also sometimes been guilty of that).

But on the whole I think we can see the forum getting slowly back to normal, where we will be able to calmly discuss the game and its issues, without sparks flying all the time...:ping:

Indeed, some people will do almost anything to convince you that their opinion is the only one which matters, you have seen an example of that on page 10 alone. My thread has been taken out of context, because one particular individual assumes that it is an assault against the game he worships, when in fact it's purpose was only to inform those who have yet to purchase the game of the price change. I fail to see how this is in any way negative, but as usual, the extremists see what they want to see.

I agree that the forum is calming down, compared to a few weeks ago, but there is still a long way to go. Honestly, I don't see why some people feel the need to be so openly hostile to those who either do not share their point of view, or disagree with some aspect of it. Surely, the purpose of this forum is to 'discuss', not beat each other over the heads, or am I missing something here?

Why the brig?

Because he's a troll, and the brig is where trolls belong. He knows it, we know it, hell, the whole damned forum probably knows it.

[SteamWake]

Well on steam it is still on the top 10 sellers list at the original price.

I'm guessing those in the UK arent as keen on subsims.

[Nordmann]

Well on steam it is still on the top 10 sellers list at the original price.

I'm guessing those in the UK arent as keen on subsims.

Not necessarily, the price reduction doesn't tell us anything at this time, as currently Amazon are the only ones to do so (to my knowledge).

[Charlie901]

Gunnodayak, u still keep bashing the devs for some unknown reason. For me, the only responsible for this epic fail is only Ubi. I mean, u must be blind or something if you can't see that this is an unfinished product. There is no excuse for Ubi to launch a game with only the graphic part finished. They are the publishers, they should know better if a game is ready or not for release, is their job.


Well that's probably because the Devs may very well be totally responsible for this pile of Cr@p!!!

Lets just asume to say that UBI ordered this title out the door in it's current state. If so, it really makes you wonder what the heck it was that the Dev Team was doing with this title for 3+years when they already had the excellent foundation of SH3 & 4 to build upon. SH5 Graphics are nice but look what modders have done to SH4 with no code access and in a relatively short amount of time to make it comparable to SH5 graphically.

Lets face it, the Devs weren't; "Reinventing the Wheel" here. Case in Point: A mere week after SH5's release, tons of Mods were released, finishing and fixing many issues that any of the Devs could have addressed in an hour or so "With the Open Code lying right in their faces".

Makes me wonder if the Devs were just jerking around like most office staff updating their "Facebook" pages and playing Solitare rather than working hard to complete a quality product and UBI finally said; "Enough is enough", and pulled the rug out from under them, releasing this title in the stinking state that it is.

So until we know the real story I think its safe to say that we can't assume one group is guilty over the other of releasing this one as a stinking TURD!

[Coldcall]

Well that's probably because the Devs may very well be totally responsible for this pile of Cr@p!!!

Lets just asume to say that UBI ordered this title out the door in it's current state. If so, it really makes you wonder what the heck it was that the Dev Team was doing with this title for 3+years when they already had the excellent foundation of SH3 & 4 to build upon. SH5 Graphics are nice but look what modders have done to SH4 with no code access and in a relatively short amount of time to make it comparable to SH5 graphically.

Lets face it, the Devs weren't; "Reinventing the Wheel" here. Case in Point: A mere week after SH5's release, tons of Mods were released, finishing and fixing many issues that any of the Devs could have addressed in an hour or so "With the Open Code lying right in their faces".

Makes me wonder if the Devs were just jerking around like most office staff updating their "Facebook" pages and playing Solitare rather than working hard to complete a quality product and UBI finally said; "Enough is enough", and pulled the rug out from under them, releasing this title in the stinking state that it is.

So until we know the real story I think its safe to say that we can't assume one group is guilty over the other of releasing this one as a stinking TURD!

Well i think its more likely that the devs told Ubi it was not ready and Ubi said, release anyway and you guys can do some patches, cheque is in the post. What are the devs going to do, refuse to hand it over? Remember Ubi are their bosses.

This is the problem with these large corporate publishers also owning all the dev houses making games today. The publishers own all the rights which mean they have all the power in the end.

This is why i stress the devs needs to ascertain their rights as artists and at least own a share of the copyright. Believe me this happen very soon when developers realise that they should have some control over their creative work, as do authors, artists, even journalists.

[609_Avatar]

Yes, exactly. Even indie companies tend to go with a publisher if they want their game to reach a wider audience. It's a necessary evil.

The ignorant side of me in terms of how these things actually work would like to think in this day and age with the internet being as prevalent as it is that they could do a decent job of marketing the game themselves and sell directly to people over the net. Kind of like how some up and coming musicians are trying to do now a days.

[Nordmann]

The ignorant side of me in terms of how these things actually work would like to think in this day and age with the internet being as prevalent as it is that they could do a decent job of marketing the game themselves and sell directly to people over the net. Kind of like how some up and coming musicians are trying to do now a days.

True, and it can be done, but it is by no means easy, or cheap for that matter. In any case, few developers these days can refuse the large sums of money publishers are willing to throw at them, regardless of what this means for the developer in terms of being tied to said publisher. Just look at all the small teams EA have gobbled up over the past few years, that is but one example. Soon we have have only the corporate giants left, and this is definitely not good for the consumer.

Honestly, if someone offered to buy you out for a very large sum of money, would you say no? Because this is exactly what publishers like EA, and indeed Ubisoft, are doing these days.

[Coldcall]

The ignorant side of me in terms of how these things actually work would like to think in this day and age with the internet being as prevalent as it is that they could do a decent job of marketing the game themselves and sell directly to people over the net. Kind of like how some up and coming musicians are trying to do now a days.

With direct downloads and internet shopping one does not necessarily need the big publishers, its just much easier and yes its hard to say no when being told not to worry about that part of the business, and here's your money, thanks for your work.

This wont go on forever, its a phase like all phases and there wil be reactionary tilt the other way at some point.

[Jimbuna]

Most of you are ignoring the elephant in the room in this matter. Why they will not go independent? One of the main reasons is that because they are not so good you think they are. It's very convenient for them to hide behind some Ubi marketing decision. You have the tendency to see them as "saints", but they are full of "sins". Alexandru Gris, the head project responsible, is not even with its feet down on Earth, he is very happy of the final product as result of its team work, he told me that, and if somebody think that I am lying, I can prove that. He told everybody, to his friends, to his relative, what a good project he finished.
Dan (elanaiba), on the otherside, have a little more decency than Alexandru, but he is not a saint either.
So please, try to stop separate those two entities, Ubi suits and Ubi devs, they belong to the same mother company, and the responsibility of success and failure belongs to all of them. No Ubi suit is responsible for the major bugs in the game, like morale system and so on, arcadish as it is.

Anyway, as I've told earlier today, some of you fully deserve SH5. Understand what you want from that conclusion of mine.

Oh come on now....personal attacks or insinuations are not warranted or welcomed here.

It is obvious and acceptable that you have issues with SH5 in terms of quality and are highlighting the facts as you see them in a debate....but please, let us keep personalisation out of it.

This is not your finest moment, I'm sure your a better person than that.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The ignorant side of me in terms of how these things actually work would like to think in this day and age with the internet being as prevalent as it is that they could do a decent job of marketing the game themselves and sell directly to people over the net. Kind of like how some up and coming musicians are trying to do now a days.

TaleWorlds published their Mount&Blade game online although if I'm not wrong they later published it also in DVD. I have no idea how succesfull that was but atleast they seem to still be on business.

[Onkel Neal]

Most of you are ignoring the elephant in the room in this matter. Why they will not go independent? One of the main reasons is that because they are not so good you think they are. It's very convenient for them to hide behind some Ubi marketing decision. You have the tendency to see them as "saints", but they are full of "sins". Alexandru Gris, the head project responsible, is not even with its feet down on Earth, he is very happy of the final product as result of its team work, he told me that, and if somebody think that I am lying, I can prove that. He told everybody, to his friends, to his relative, what a good project he finished.
Dan (elanaiba), on the otherside, have a little more decency than Alexandru, but he is not a saint either.
So please, try to stop separate those two entities, Ubi suits and Ubi devs, they belong to the same mother company, and the responsibility of success and failure belongs to all of them. No Ubi suit is responsible for the major bugs in the game, like morale system and so on, arcadish as it is.

Anyway, as I've told earlier today, some of you fully deserve SH5. Understand what you want from that conclusion of mine.

I'm really disappointed you think it's appropriate to attack these guys again. We talked about this explicitly. The dev team individually cannot post replies to your innuendo here. They cannot defend themselves against your "information". You are basically being a cyberbully by naming them and characterizing them in a negative light.

You can criticize the game and the dev team, intellegently, but don't start making character accusations by name, unless you are willing to post your real name, your company and your boss' name.

Because we have had this problem before, and I made it perfectly clear that was not acceptable, your suspension this time is going to last longer than the last. I'm guessing you won't care, you have done what you came to do and you probably think we're all idiots anyway.

[Nisgeis]

Not necessarily, the price reduction doesn't tell us anything at this time, as currently Amazon are the only ones to do so (to my knowledge).

Game has reduced their price to £12.98 as well and also amazon has recently dropped the price of AC2 as well to £15.98.

ShopTo.Net's price has also dropped £3 to £19.85 for SH5 and AC2 is also £19.85 (not sure what it was previously, but it wasn't that low).

Buuuuuuut... Germany and the US are the markets for subsims.

[Onkel Neal]

With direct downloads and internet shopping one does not necessarily need the big publishers, its just much easier and yes its hard to say no when being told not to worry about that part of the business, and here's your money, thanks for your work.

This wont go on forever, its a phase like all phases and there wil be reactionary tilt the other way at some point.

I don't think one can discount the massive marketing power of a major publisher like Ubi or EA. When Sonalysts decided to publish their own game, Dangerous Waters, as a direct download only (to begin with) the sales were terrible, even though that game was the first and best example of a sub/ship/air naval simulation.

[Nordmann]

Game has reduced their price to £12.98 as well and also amazon has recently dropped the price of AC2 as well to £15.98.

ShopTo.Net's price has also dropped £3 to £19.85 for SH5 and AC2 is also £19.85 (not sure what it was previously, but it wasn't that low).

Buuuuuuut... Germany and the US are the markets for subsims.

Ah, that's right, you mentioned it earlier in the thread (before it got swamped by rants). Perhaps the UK stores are having trouble shifting it, compared with the US market. Still, perhaps Amazon and Game are trying to stay ahead of their competitors, and make more sales than those still selling it for full price.

[Zedi]

Well, I agree with the feeling that the dev team warned the fat guys from Ubi ceo that this game is not ready for the market. This is mostly because SH5 was released on market with AC2 and I supose these fat guys had a tight release schedule. Ready or not, we are going live. If we fail, the dev team will get the kicks, we play low and get fat.

I say that because I saw (and we all did) many pre release vids on YT, shots taken from the "closed beta" version of SH5. So there was indeed a beta version and there for sure was a long list of bugs. But I suppose was no time to fix them. All the bugs I saw on those beta vids are still here on the release version.

Only the forum rules keeps me back to not rage with full hate at Ubi ceo. This company is a joke and the fat dudes in ceo can play only with xls files, having fun only with the company revenues. These guys are not gamers, they suck and they have a huge luck with the AC2 success now. I am and I will ever be a Blizzard fan, the only game company I trust now where everybody is a hardcore gamer first, business man second. And they golden rule "it's ready when it's ready" made every game they release to be a master piece. Ubi deserve no respect, except the fact they are the only company who still make a sub sim.

[Hitman]

I don't think one can discount the massive marketing power of a major publisher like Ubi or EA. When Sonalysts decided to publish their own game, Dangerous Waters, as a direct download only (to begin with) the sales were terrible, even though that game was the first and best example of a sub/ship/air naval simulation.

Yeah, so far despite the best efforts of electronic distributers, there is still nothing as tempting for the casual customer as going to a shopping center and seeing a DVD box with a good art cover in the shelf. Of course those guys who are constantly in the internet and looking for the latest news on games and specifically on the genere they like will buy it via pay-download, but the hige market of gut-customers attracted by the DVD label is that way largely mishandled.

[KL-alfman]

Buuuuuuut... Germany and the US are the markets for subsims.


as for amazon.de I just can tell that they reduced the price too. on release the price was around €49 but now it dropped to around €35 and there are already german suppliers who offer SH5 for around €30

edit: the link
http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B002Q6S1N4/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1269636235&sr=1-1&condition=new

[janh]

as for amazon.de I just can tell that they reduced the price too. on release the price was around €49 but now it dropped to around €35 and there are already german suppliers who offer SH5 for around €30

edit: the link
http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B002Q6S1N4/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1269636235&sr=1-1&condition=new


It's probably not meaningful, but if it were, it would be unlucky: I check amazon.de's supply daily to get a feel for how well it was going out, but two weeks ago their stock was 34. On no day did it drop below 29, but now it is 30, so they must have also gotten resupply. Hard to say, but for stocks of other games, say Call of Duty, there is much more fluctuation then 5.

[Nordmann]

Ouch, 150 reviews, and it has a 1.5 star rating, with 130 one star ratings alone. I wonder how many of those people actually bought the game.

[Sonarman]

Buuuuuuut... Germany and the US are the markets for subsims.

Actually, I think it's Germany & the UK, why do you think the US didn't get a printed manual this time out? SH3 sold 90K copes in the states out of 350000+ units, whilst SH4 only sold 50K copies in the states. It must have sold at least 150K units in Europe or I am sure there would have been no SH5.

[Sonarman]

Ouch, 150 reviews, and it has a 1.5 star rating, with 130 one star ratings alone. I wonder how many of those people actually bought the game.

Yes if patch 1.2 solves a lot of the bugs and missing features we should perhaps try to "re-dress the balance" on Amazon or it may indeed be the end for the series.

[Nisgeis]

Actually, I think it's Germany & the UK, why do you think the US didn't get a printed manual this time out?

The demographic most interested in subsims is US and Germany, I don't have a reference for that to hand, but I have read that before (I know that's bad to say it without any links) and also the demographic most interested in SH videos is US and Germany on youtube, the UK is tiny in comparisson. As to why didn't the US get a printed manual - who knows why Ubisoft do the crazy things they do :)? The US got a documentary DVD that no other region got.

[KL-alfman]

Ouch, 150 reviews, and it has a 1.5 star rating, with 130 one star ratings alone. I wonder how many of those people actually bought the game.


a big amount of these reviews are quite elaborated and (sadly) only a few adress mods as solutions to some bugs.
I would assume the vast majority has bought the game ...

[Adriatico]

Reviews are marking the released game... mods or would-be mods are not considered.

The facts are:
- Review marks are DISASTER.
- It faced a sharp price drop in THE FIRST MONTH of release.

So these monkeys would rather face "bargain bin" destiny in a month or two... rather than removing DRM.

Wide community and pirats have already forgotten this "simulation"... so what is the goal of DRM? To keep it's traditional buyers away from Silent Buger 5 ?

Congratulations Ubi...
:zzz::dead::zzz::dead:

[KL-alfman]

Reviews are marking the released game... mods or would-be mods are not considered.




you are right.

but I wrote about the buyers' feedback at amazon.de - the people tell from their own experiences with the game (and just a few had modded versions). and these remarks are disastrous.

[Nafod81]

It's just funny how people seem to seperate UBI from UBI Rumania.

As Elanaiba said

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

I personally don't believe assailing the dev's superiors on this board either

1) accomplishes anything

OR

2) does the devs any good.

[corvette k225]

So in six months what will be lower in price, SHIV or SHV ?:cry:

[Cavell]

Well on steam it is still on the top 10 sellers list at the original price.

I'm guessing those in the UK arent as keen on subsims.

No, it isn't.

It cracked the Steam top 10 its first week out, at number 8 I believe, and was then beaten out by Counter-Strike: Source.

[jerm138]

This whole thing is very reminiscent of Microsoft FSX, and the end of many years of flight simulation.

"Casual Gamers" will never be interested in niche games like this. They want to load the game, and be killing within seconds. Look at CODMW2. That game was a nonstop barrage of killing and action. THAT'S what the casual gamer wants, and there is no feasible way for a submarine game to provide that. Most people who like that barrage of cannon fodder will never understand the thrill of tracking a contact for hours in REAL TIME, and feel the excitement of waiting to see if your torpedoes hit... so why pander to them?

Microsoft went down the exact same path with their Flight Simulator series... they focused all of their efforts on "eye candy" for the new generation. They weren't interested, and the loyal following they had built over so many years just got angry, and the series died.

[Coldcall]

I don't think one can discount the massive marketing power of a major publisher like Ubi or EA. When Sonalysts decided to publish their own game, Dangerous Waters, as a direct download only (to begin with) the sales were terrible, even though that game was the first and best example of a sub/ship/air naval simulation.

I'm not discounting their big marketing resources but there are other ways for independents to get good pr without blowing wads on primetime advertisements. However it does not appear that Ubi even used their huge marketing resources for SH5.

But hey, I see im debating this against a tide of defeatism so if folks honestly think that game making is dead unless you are one of the big 4 or 5 publishers, then thats really depressing.

What can i say? :-)

[Commie]

This whole thing is very reminiscent of Microsoft FSX, and the end of many years of flight simulation.

"Casual Gamers" will never be interested in niche games like this. They want to load the game, and be killing within seconds. Look at CODMW2. That game was a nonstop barrage of killing and action. THAT'S what the casual gamer wants, and there is no feasible way for a submarine game to provide that. Most people who like that barrage of cannon fodder will never understand the thrill of tracking a contact for hours in REAL TIME, and feel the excitement of waiting to see if your torpedoes hit... so why pander to them?

Microsoft went down the exact same path with their Flight Simulator series... they focused all of their efforts on "eye candy" for the new generation. They weren't interested, and the loyal following they had built over so many years just got angry, and the series died.

Again with the 'casual gamer' blame game. The thing is the 'casual gamer' is not responsible for the death of sims or strategy per se. In the 80's and 90's until the advent of the 3d video cards, most PC games were much more complicated and sold in comparative quantities as the few sims around these days, and many sold less. So it's not that sims all of a sudden stopped being bought!

The problem is that 3D video cards really pushed the action First/Third person shooter from the late 90's and for developers and publishers the ability to relatively easily create immersive, realistic worlds with lots of eye candy enabled the rise of the 'casual gamer', a demographic that was easy to satisfy and potentially far larger than the already existing hard-core PC gamer.

It was quicker to make an action game, and also had other benefits of lower costs of manufacture, without fancy manuals etc. Publishers only think about maximising revenue and not maintaining a customer base that as a percentage was fast getting smaller and smaller.

The sad thing is that the market for sims or even the harder core FPS games like Deus Ex, System Shock hasn't dried up, as all those gamers are still around and in fact have been joined by new generations.

There's money lying on the pavement just waiting to be scooped up. The problem is that UBI, EA, Vivendi and the like think it's too little for them to bother bending and picking it up!

[KL-alfman]

the harder core FPS games like Deus Ex, System Shock hasn't dried up


yeah!
the great Looking Glass Studios!
Ultima Underworld and System Shock, all-time classics.

shame on you Eidos! :down:

[SteamWake]

In the 80's and 90's until the advent of the 3d video cards, most PC games were much more complicated

Done alot of coding have you?

[Coldcall]

Done alot of coding have you?

I think there is a valid point that games today are no more superior (and probably less so) from a complexity standpoint, and in depth of game mechanics than games from the late 80s and through the 90s.

I think there is a simple reason for this which is that in the 80s and 90s you were probbaly using a PC, and had enough knowledge of MS Dos to configure and autoexec bat file or whatever to make sure you can run game x...So gamers back then were much more use to dealing with command lines, or games which were complex compared to todays standards.

IMO gameplay mechanics have not progressed in the same way graphics have and in many games one can see the developers have used the eye candy as a redeeming factor in a games with very shallow dumbed down gameplay.

I'd prefer a a more equal mixture of decent graphics and better gameplay. One of the reasons i like the SH series, regardless of the all the problems, is because it feels like one of the last hold-outs from that era when PC games were more complex.

[tonschk]

How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it?


The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.


:yeah: I Agree with :up: The General :up:



;

[janh]

Nope, simple: I haven't bought X only translates into "I am not a fan of X". But does not translate into any bigger ensemble, i.e. "I am not a fan of the franchise series of X" or "I am not a fan of the game genre of X" both would be false statements.

I bet I can find a super-primitive sprite based U-boat shooter game on some box or gameboy that you guys both surely would hate. And then you'd be subsim fans according to your explanations, right?

[jerm138]

Again with the 'casual gamer' blame game.

You started off sounding like you were going to disagree with me, but then what you wrote completely supported my statement. :hmmm:

[Captain Wreckless]

I heard that Ubisoft has done a deal to give a Toyota away with every copy! :)

:har:

[sav112]

Originally Posted by The General http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1333700#post1333700)

How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it?

The people who haven't yet purchased the game can't really call themselves Subsim fans can they? They're the followers not the leaders.
;

I dont have to Jump off a cliff to know its not for me.
I think you’ll find it is the real fans that are concerned and making a statement not buying the game.

Lead away......or as some would say be led down the garden path. :rotfl2::rotfl2: However thats not having a go as I'm sure most bought the game knowing fine well the problems.
But don’t insult the people that are wise enough to form there own view from the facts without having to play the game.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Most people who like that barrage of cannon fodder will never understand the thrill of tracking a contact for hours in REAL TIME, and feel the excitement of waiting to see if your torpedoes hit... so why pander to them?
I like Silent Hunter and Modern Warfare, which kind of ****s your theory with a rake..... MW2 has shifted 25 million units - and that's just legitimate sales. Please try not to tar all of those people with the same brush. Gross generalisations like this make you look like an idiot.

e:

How do you know you need to MOD the hell out of it when you haven't played it?
MOD"Mod" is a contraction of "Modification", it's not an acronym, and should not be fully capitalised. Stop butchering the English language.

[Nisgeis]

Gross generalisations like this make you look like an idiot.

Gross generalisations make everyone look like an idiot. Oh wait...

[karamazovnew]

This whole thing is very reminiscent of Microsoft FSX, and the end of many years of flight simulation.

Microsoft went down the exact same path with their Flight Simulator series... they focused all of their efforts on "eye candy" for the new generation. They weren't interested, and the loyal following they had built over so many years just got angry, and the series died.

Wowowowow! You just can't be serious to compare the FS series to Silent Hunter.

FS relies a lot on 3'd party apps and it's oriented towards any flight enthusiasts. The core FSX is the best core FS of all. The improvements were there, not just in graphics. Most of all, FS is a true-blood sim. Maybe not so "professional-looking" as X-Plane. But hey, in FS you can learn how to read a real approach plate. I managed to get the flight plans and airport charts of the Otopeni Bucharest airport. I used them in the game. I found a 757 real operations manual and used it to learn to fly the LevelD 757. I parked near a VOR antenna that's depicted in the game. I even recognized my tiny village where my parents live. I'm sad that the Aces team was sacked. But they left us with an amazing sim that we'll be able to play for years and years, with 3d glasses and, in the future, HMD's. Plus, they're still at it, looking for another publisher. The level of customization and detail in FS is simply mind-blowing. Microsoft's decision was a real surprise.

Silent Hunter on the other hand really is an ugly duckling of sims. What's annoying about the latest version (apart from the unprecedented number and "quality" of bugs) is that waaay too many of our requested features have been ignored (and no, I don't care about WHY they ignored them). I knew it would be a flop since January. It had been already clear then that the game would need a lot of modding to turn it into a sim, and we should be grateful for the modding tools that we were provided out of the box. But SH5 has been filled with unfortunate design choices and too many bugs. There deffinitely won't be a SH6. And if there will be one, I guarantee you that no sane fan would buy it if it's just another candy-shop with rats in it. I'm actually surprised that the community hasn't already abandoned this game. It's been out for one month and there's still no patch 1.2. Kudos to the modders.

I don't want to upset the dev team but I really don't think they can handle making a real naval sim. A thumbs up for the effort, sure, and there's gotta be passionate people there. But that's useless because a dev team depends on a chain of command.
They are UBI, don't separate them from the mother company, take them as a whole. And the WHOLE failed on this one. They might be better for arcade sims so I'm sure they will have lots of success in that area.
What we need is to teleport Bullfrog, Microprose, Looking Glass and Particle Systems from the past and ask them to make a real WW2 sub sim. We'd have a better chance at asking the old Microprose members to team up than we have a chance for SH6 to be a good sim (or released at all).

[jerm138]

Wowowowow! You just can't be serious to compare the FS series to Silent Hunter.

I'm not comparing the programs themselves... Of course they're way different.

I'm comparing the effect of not listening to your customer base... which the makers of FSX and the makers of SH5 both seem to have done. Microsoft Flight Simulator died shortly after FSX, and people are speculating about whether or not the Silent Hunter series will survive. It's a valid comparison.

[karamazovnew]

I'm not comparing the programs themselves... Of course they're way different.

I'm comparing the effect of not listening to your customer base... which the makers of FSX and the makers of SH5 both seem to have done. Microsoft Flight Simulator died shortly after FSX, and people are speculating about whether or not the Silent Hunter series will survive. It's a valid comparison.

True, I'm not comparing the games either :haha: I got carried again!
What I was trying to compare was actually the way in which Ubi punished the customer base, while Microsoft managed to deliver a beautiful sim. Actually, apart from the old flight model which was quite decent in the hands of a good modder and in the vanilla aircraft, I don't see how they managed to alienate the community :hmmm:. I've played X-Plane too and found some aspects of it's flight model to be much worse than in FS. I've done a bit of gliding for real and the vanilla glider in FS handled beautifully :up:

[jerm138]

Ubi punished the customer base, while Microsoft managed to deliver a beautiful sim. Actually, apart from the old flight model which was quite decent in the hands of a good modder and in the vanilla aircraft, I don't see how they managed to alienate the community

It might be a beautiful sim NOW... after a couple years of patches and mods. But think back to the first weeks after FSX's release. People were ANGRY... about as bad as they are about SH5. It was horrible on release. Even with a suped-up gaming rig, people could only pull 20 FPS on medium graphics settings. They didn't do anything to fix the horrible ATC. They didn't do much to improve AI aircraft. There were many things that were being asked for that weren't there. The initial impression everyone had was that it was a "broken" sim and that the devs didn't listen.... something I've heard a lot around here lately.

We could argue this till we're blue in the face... it's all a matter of opinion anyway. But I still think it's a valid comparison. Two situations do not have to be exactly identical to warrant a comparison.

[witchking]

HI guys,

I just got my brand new rig yesterday. She;s a beast...an upgrade from my inspiron 9300 that was 5yrs old to the brand new Asus G73JH. Freaking awsome!! I love it...LCD, vid card...CPU...just a heck of a damn every penny worth package. I have been waiting to get a new pc to get Sh5 and looking at this thread...looks like it was worth it. can I (canadian) buy SH5 from the uk amazon store? it still sells in store for 50$ here. This would save enough money that i might consider even getting the AC2. ;)

edit:

scratch that :(


PC & Video Games, Toys & Games and Software items and accessories
United Kingdom (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales), Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland (Republic of), Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.

[Commie]

Done alot of coding have you?

Yep.

Done a lot of reading with understanding have you?

Obviously not. If you did you'd understand what I meant. But I suppose for you Bioshock is as complicated as System Shock; Panzer Elite Action is as complicated as M1 Tank Platoon 2, Mass Effect is as complicated as Ultima Underworld or VII. Never mind the barrage of sims we had in the 90's with their 50 key commands or the hieroglyphic interfaces of games which required a lot more COMPLICATED methods of navigating than the mouse click for everything that is standard these days. So yes Mr Steamwake, games were often much more complicated in the past both in terms of gameplay and in terms of interaction, interface and even installation which made them inaccessible to the 'casual gamer'.

[elanaiba]

Hell, in those days, you kinda had to be a nerd to be able to run a computer and games, so I guess we'd accept complicated stuff IN the game too.

Not enough EMS memory anyone?

[kylania]

hell, in those days, you kinda had to be a nerd to be able to run a computer and games, so i guess we'd accept complicated stuff in the game too.

Not enough ems memory anyone?

himem.sys ftw!

[The Enigma]

Aahh, those were the days.
Those endless changing of config.sys and autoexec.bat just to get the most memory for the game.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Yeah. I remember that too. Very annoying when you need 1kb more memory but you can't get it from anywhere.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Gross generalisations make everyone look like an idiot. Oh wait...
I don't think generalisation means what you think it means.

[lorka42]

INCONCEIVABLE!!!
(You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.)

[goldorak]

Hell, in those days, you kinda had to be a nerd to be able to run a computer and games, so I guess we'd accept complicated stuff IN the game too.

Not enough EMS memory anyone?


Strange, I remember lots and lots of military simulations for windows 98, and you didn't have to mess with ems memory. ;)

[Wulfmann]

Price was never a consideration.
I would play it for years almost every day so the few dollars are irrelevant.

What matter is my game PC is not online and will not be.

If SH5 with DRM is $5.00 and a new version that requires no online set up is $50.00 I will gladly pay the $50.00.
Until then a free copy has no meaning to me with DRM.

Wulfmann

[Nisgeis]

I don't think generalisation means what you think it means.

Yes it does.

[janh]

Strange, I remember lots and lots of military simulations for windows 98, and you didn't have to mess with ems memory. ;)

Original DOS games. I recall for many a game including Task Force 1942 headaches in gettting EMS, XMS etc right to start it...

You better knew something about your computer, it helped quite a bit (and got you started with "Hex modding" games, exe's, etc). But the manuals for the games also gave you a neat description how to do it without knowing either, so it was ok.

[Onkel Neal]

Strange, I remember lots and lots of military simulations for windows 98, and you didn't have to mess with ems memory. ;)


I remember lots and lots of military simulations well before Windows 98. Or Windows 95... or Windows. :O:

[janh]

Hell, in those days, you kinda had to be a nerd to be able to run a computer and games, so I guess we'd accept complicated stuff IN the game too.

Hmmh, are you imply that "newer generations of gamers" are not "talented" enough anymore with computers and only can handle click, drag and drop and windows level interfaces? I don't think so.

I'd rather suspect that the number of people capable of handling similarly complex simulations like M1 Tank Platoon 2, Janes Longbow, Falcon 4 etc. has tremendously increased since the 90s. If you refer to lower sales of those types of products in these times, you have to keep in mind that there are just more products competing for each customer, and each one has just limited time. The total number of "buys" per customer may also have gone down since modding adds a lot to longlevitiy of a title, and the graphics are by now so good that each sequel is only a little different (unlike in the 90s: EGA -> VGA ->SVGA etc). That is at least case for me.

EDIT:
The thing you guys at Ubisoft tried this time, i.e. to make it accessible to casual gamers (a bit more arcade, simpler in realism/simulation depth, more stylish) and still satisfy (hardcore) simulation fans, is hard to achieve. And I would question whether it is possible at all.

It sounds like making a Ferrari that is big enough to be a family van. As a fan of fast cars I'd stay the heck away from it. And as family I probably would be very suspicious about the merger at best.

[jerm138]

Done a lot of reading with understanding have you?

Obviously not.


THIS...

...is the attitude I'm talking about that has infected these boards.
You know, it's possible to disagree with somebody without coming off sounding like a smart-ass punk.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Original DOS games. I recall for many a game including Task Force 1942 headaches in gettting EMS, XMS etc right to start it...

You better knew something about your computer, it helped quite a bit (and got you started with "Hex modding" games, exe's, etc). But the manuals for the games also gave you a neat description how to do it without knowing either, so it was ok.
Slightly off-topic but do someone know where I could find list of DOS commands?

[tommyk]

like this?
http://www.computerhope.com/msdos.htm

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

like this?
http://www.computerhope.com/msdos.htm
Thanks! I planned to put my ol' good laptop to run ol' good DOS games. This helps a lot! :up:

[karamazovnew]

It might be a beautiful sim NOW... after a couple years of patches and mods. But think back to the first weeks after FSX's release. People were ANGRY... about as bad as they are about SH5. It was horrible on release. Even with a suped-up gaming rig, people could only pull 20 FPS on medium graphics settings. They didn't do anything to fix the horrible ATC. They didn't do much to improve AI aircraft. There were many things that were being asked for that weren't there. The initial impression everyone had was that it was a "broken" sim and that the devs didn't listen.... something I've heard a lot around here lately.

We could argue this till we're blue in the face... it's all a matter of opinion anyway. But I still think it's a valid comparison. Two situations do not have to be exactly identical to warrant a comparison.

I didn't know that. FSX worked splendidly for me from the start. Never had a problem with the ATC and I usually never flew with air traffic (i didn't have a quad core then). The same can be said about SH5 fans that love the game and don't understand why the rest are ranting. So I retract my statement and I agree with your comparison :D New info every day, ain't life grand... :yeah:

[goldorak]

I remember lots and lots of military simulations well before Windows 98. Or Windows 95... or Windows. :O:

:D well I started gaming on IBM dos so.... :haha:

[goldorak]

Thanks! I planned to put my ol' good laptop to run ol' good DOS games. This helps a lot! :up:

:timeout: use dosbox for runing dos games, you won't find any difference between this and installing the game on a dos machine.
Its one hell of a program.

[Echo76]

I remember the C64 and Red Storm Rising, it required loading 3 cassette tapes before mission, I read quite a many books while waiting LoL.

[Commie]

THIS...

...is the attitude I'm talking about that has infected these boards.
You know, it's possible to disagree with somebody without coming off sounding like a smart-ass punk.

Actually I was being sarcastic as it was a reply to a real smartarse comment. I actually backed it up with some explanations, the other guy just did a 'spit and run'. But of course he is the one with a million posts so you defend the 'guru'.


Hell, in those days, you kinda had to be a nerd to be able to run a computer and games, so I guess we'd accept complicated stuff IN the game too.

Not enough EMS memory anyone?

Christ, I remember the pain and tedium of HIMEM.SYS, EMS and all the other stuff you had to do to make a boot disk. Anyone remember how you'd get a game, a manual, AND a 6 page guide to creating a bootdisk with troubleshooting tips and finding it STILL didn't work? Hell, must have had dozens of boot disks alone for each damn game! LOL
Cheers.

[alexradu89]

Browsing Amazon, and I just noticed that SH5 went from £22.93, to £12.98, within a space of a few hours! That's quite a considerable drop, even for Amazon. I wonder if those low ratings have anything to do with it?

Check it out, here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Hunter-5-PC-DVD/dp/B002U0KBT8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1269533058&sr=8-1).
Please, stop arguing and let's get back to the original topic which is, the drop in SH5 cost on various specialty sites...atm I see you can get a copy of it at prices ranging from 13 to 30 pounds. :o

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

:timeout: use dosbox for runing dos games, you won't find any difference between this and installing the game on a dos machine.
Its one hell of a program.
Do it work with Win 7 64bit?

[Commie]

Hmmh, are you imply that "newer generations of gamers" are not "talented" enough anymore with computers and only can handle click, drag and drop and windows level interfaces? I don't think so.

I'd rather suspect that the number of people capable of handling similarly complex simulations like M1 Tank Platoon 2, Janes Longbow, Falcon 4 etc. has tremendously increased since the 90s. If you refer to lower sales of those types of products in these times, you have to keep in mind that there are just more products competing for each customer, and each one has just limited time. The total number of "buys" per customer may also have gone down since modding adds a lot to longlevitiy of a title, and the graphics are by now so good that each sequel is only a little different (unlike in the 90s: EGA -> VGA ->SVGA etc). That is at least case for me.

EDIT:
The thing you guys at Ubisoft tried this time, i.e. to make it accessible to casual gamers (a bit more arcade, simpler in realism/simulation depth, more stylish) and still satisfy (hardcore) simulation fans, is hard to achieve. And I would question whether it is possible at all.

It sounds like making a Ferrari that is big enough to be a family van. As a fan of fast cars I'd stay the heck away from it. And as family I probably would be very suspicious about the merger at best.

Agree 100% with you jahn. I too wonder about the philosophy behind making SH5 more 'casual' as it doesn't really satisfy anybody, neither hardcore, nor casual gamers. There is a flawed logic that suggests that casual gamers will only play a simulation if it's 'dumbed down'. Reality is that I could fit the model of what a casual gamer likes to play as well: I like my FPS Call Of Duty games....BUT I ALSO LOVE MY SIMS(and rpgs, wargames)!

If a person is interested in a simulator, even if he/she is a casual gamer then it's because of the simulation factor. If they weren't interested in a proper simulation they would buy HAWX or Blazing Angels rather than Il-2 or Black Shark, making the dumbing down of a proper simulation redundant. On the other hand if a casual gamer thinks that simulations are 'boring' then why the hell would they buy a submarine simulator anyway, considering that it wasn't exactly marketed as 'action simulation SUBZ'!

[elanaiba]

Don't confuse bugs or unfinished features with dumbing down.

There's hardly any of the latter in SH5. There are some tools that try to make the game slightly easier to understand. There may also be some questionable design choices depending on your POV, but you'd be hardly pressed to find something that was designed to be dumbed down compared to SH3/4.

[elanaiba]

Hmmh, are you imply that "newer generations of gamers" are not "talented" enough anymore with computers and only can handle click, drag and drop and windows level interfaces? I don't think so.


Well I am half joking, but what I meant was that these days not only the nerds like me can play PC games, while in the past the audience was maybe a little more limited.

[goldorak]

Do it work with Win 7 64bit?

As a matter of fact is does. Its a 32 bit program that emulates at almost 100% a dos environment (and not only the operatng system). Go to http://www.dosbox.com/ and see for yourself. :D

[Coldcall]

Don't confuse bugs or unfinished features with dumbing down.

There's hardly any of the latter in SH5. There are some tools that try to make the game slightly easier to understand. There may also be some questionable design choices depending on your POV, but you'd be hardly pressed to find something that was designed to be dumbed down compared to SH3/4.

I dont understand the criticism that it is arcadey at all. If it was targeted at the casual gamer market it is a spectacular fail - and i mean that in the nicest possible way.

[Coldcall]

As a matter of fact is does. Its a 32 bit program that emulates at almost 100% a dos environment (and not only the operatng system). Go to http://www.dosbox.com/ and see for yourself. :D

Does it slow the cpu down? I remember paying some old dos games on win 95/98 and one needed that moslo program which would slow down your processor or the game would run too fast - heaven forbid.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Does it slow the cpu down? I remember paying some old dos games on win 95/98 and one needed that moslo program which would slow down your processor or the game would run too fast - heaven forbid.

I totally forgot that... When I last tried to play original GTA in my old desktop it ran way too fast. Car parked -> car crashed

[goldorak]

Does it slow the cpu down? I remember paying some old dos games on win 95/98 and one needed that moslo program which would slow down your processor or the game would run too fast - heaven forbid.

You can set the speed of the emulation. Just to give you some numbers, I can run at full speed SH I and Sierra Fast Attack. Also F-19 Stealth Fighter but this one is older than the former titles. In any case any modern cpu (last 5-6 years) can cope without problem with dosbox.

[IanC]

I'll quickly add, to simplify DOSBox set ups, I use D-Fend Reloaded (http://dfendreloaded.sourceforge.net/Download.html). :up:

[JScones]

I remember lots and lots of military simulations well before Windows 98. Or Windows 95... or Windows. :O:
<shudders> I still have awful memories of creating a bootdisk to get AOTD to play, and that's despite having a whopping 4MB of RAM installed.

As a matter of fact is does. Its a 32 bit program that emulates at almost 100% a dos environment (and not only the operatng system). Go to http://www.dosbox.com/ and see for yourself. :D
Just on this, rather than reinvent the wheel, does anyone have the settings or whatever to get AOTD up and running?

I've been buying a few older (1990's) games from GOG.com and what I've liked is that they've integrated DOSBox, so it's simply a matter of d/l, install and play. No stuffing around. Wish they'd put up AOTD. I'd love to get AOTD working; it's prolly the only game I bought back in the 1990's that I still own!

[IanC]

Just on this, rather than reinvent the wheel, does anyone have the settings or whatever to get AOTD up and running?

I've been buying a few older (1990's) games from GOG.com and what I've liked is that they've integrated DOSBox, so it's simply a matter of d/l, install and play. No stuffing around. Wish they'd put up AOTD. I'd love to get AOTD working; it's prolly the only game I bought back in the 1990's that I still own!

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but using the set up wizard in D-Fend Reloaded, I got AOD running in 30 seconds.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I dont understand the criticism that it is arcadey at all. If it was targeted at the casual gamer market it is a spectacular fail - and i mean that in the nicest possible way.

I would say I am more of a casual gamer, wife, three kids, not a lot of time to play.......

and I am liking SH5 more every day :yep:

[jerm138]

<shudders> I still have awful memories of creating a bootdisk to get AOTD to play, and that's despite having a whopping 4MB of RAM installed.

I used to have to uninstall Windows 3.1 to have enough HDD space to install DOOM. My parents would get mad when I forgot to reinstall Windows afterward. :oops:

[Buddahaid]

I dont understand the criticism that it is arcadey at all. If it was targeted at the casual gamer market it is a spectacular fail - and i mean that in the nicest possible way.

I don't mind the changed UI much, but it's the mission goals and artificial (un)itelligence that gives it the arcade label for me, and I hate to say that as I want to like the game. I can't call it a sim for those reasons alone so I'm back to the Pacific Theater with RFB/RSRDC until things are changed for the most part. No disrespect for SH3/GWX but I like the fleet boats better.

[Placoderm]

I dont understand the criticism that it is arcadey at all. If it was targeted at the casual gamer market it is a spectacular fail - and i mean that in the nicest possible way.

To me, "arcadey" is describing numerous things about this title, some of which have nothing to do with it being targeted to the "casual gamer". There is nothing wrong with someone being a "casual gamer" per se, and I do very often enjoy such titles as CODWAW and CODMW2 as well as Oblivion and Dirt and X3 Terran Conflict...none of which could be even remotely considered as study-level simulations.

The so called "casual gamer" is often one who just wants to have fun and yet not be saddled with 135 key commands or restrictive rules and procedures. "Casual gamers" may or may not be history buffs, but generally want something that they can get into quickly and then decide for themselves whether to spend 15 minutes playing or the entirety of a 4 day weekend without blinking. Sometimes I am a casual gamer, and sometimes I am a hard core simulation fanatic...yet I am that same individual. It just depends on my mood and available time.

Where the label "Arcadey" (Arcade) comes in is where designers utilize a complete absence of reality or totally ignore historical fact simply to create an artificial level of excitement. Examples of "arcadey" elements within SH5 abound, and in some cases do more harm to the suspension of disbelief than any of the known bugs.

Some examples?
-Virtually every ship I have sunk so far, whether it is a merchant or a military unit, ends it's life with a predictably outrageous series of explosions and pyrotechnics that would lead you to believe that either every single merchant ship is packed to the cieling with C4 High-Grade explosives and detonation cord as well as being painted with gunpowder, aluminum oxide, and lacquer, or that upon death it is common for every combat ship to end it's life by complete and catastrophic detonation of it's eggshell thin but overly-stuffed magazines. This detonation is so scripted and outrageous as to rip me out of my chair and scream that I am playing a game instead of sucking me into believing that I have actually accomplished something for the war effort. In reality, the vast majority of shipments from the U.S. were food, grain, and raw materials like iron, steel, and linens.

-Along the same lines, every ship seems to sink as though scripted for the benefit of the attention deficient youth of today, and not to reflect the actual dynamics of bouyancy. Oil tankers sink at the same rate as coalers and ore transports (oh...wait, I have never seen a coaler or an ore transport...), or general merchants. In reality, oil tankers where difficult to sink due to the bouyancy of their cargo and the compartmentalization of their tanks...and when they did sink they did so very very slowly. In SH5 you would never know, as they all blow sky high and when the fireworks are over the ship immediately slips beneath the waves.

-The control interface may look "kewl" to the I-phone generation, but does absolutely nothing to transport me back in time and cause me to imagine that I am captain of a mid-twentieth century war vessel. Maps back then were paper, with torn or ragged edges...not brilliant LCD screens. Gauges were round for reason of simplicity and thus durability,...and although it is not a game killer, the interface design choices made by the devs tend to remove me from a fantasy of living in 1939 and transport me directly to the 21st century.

-Perhaps the most "arcadey" of all is the makeup of the targets...huge unescorted convoys of Liberty ships in 1939 and a larger assortment of Aircraft Carriers and Capitol ships than there was afloat in every navy in the world at the time. The tiny handful of available ship classes has been made up for by duplicating them by the dozens, and one is led to believe that the seas were awash with naval and merchant targets that seem to just appear out of nowhere just as your patrol is about to end. Not only can I see more British aircraft carriers in one patrol than they had during the entire war...but it seems that not one of them has a protective screen of....aircraft. I am led to believe that England just patrolled the seas with these floating airports to impress me with thier size and the pretty airplanes crowding their decks, but never protecting the fleet.



These are just a few of the "arcadey" aspects that make this game just a game...and little more. The "simulation" parts, while present in some instances, are for the most part set aside in favor of attracting that quick and short-term satisfaction audience...the casual gamer. Where Ubi failed in making this a design philosophy of this title, is that submarine simulations do no generally lend themselves well to this type of attention span...unless history and accuracy is completey thrown out the window, which is what they seem to have done as a compromise to increase their market share.



Some people will cite things like Time Compression and even game saves as "arcadey" as well...but I would argue that those are things that are truly necessary concessions to reality to facilitate gameplay, since most of us do not have months to spend on our computers just to get through a patrol. The (optional) compression of time is no more ahistorical than the editing that is done to even the most historical movies in order to allow them to fit a given length. After all, we would not have said that the movie "Das Boot" was less historical because it did not last for months, nor was "Run Silent Run Deep" less realistic for the same reason. Who would have sat through "Band of Brothers" if the mini-series lasted for over a year of non-stop footage? Time compression is not "arcadey"...simply necessary.


What SH5 is, with all of it's flaws set aside, is a stunningly beautiful...even cinematically gorgeous game that tries to attract the wrong audience at the expense of the ones who would truly appreciate the experience of her hidden details. In doing so, it fails at both attracting the new players (who may not have the patience to learn the nuances of submarine warfare) and the dedicated hard-core simulation players who have been it's core (who feel that the concessions to the former have spoiled what could have been a landmark title). Every time I see a new screenshot of the game, or jump into a new mission...I am literally blown away by the incredible graphics and detail and environmental atmosphere that makes me really want to love this game...but as soon as the reality hits me that so much was compromised and so much was left out, I am more disappointed than I probably would have been if I was not such a fan of the genre.




In a way, it is kind of like seeing the most beautiful woman you have ever laid eyes on...a beautiful smile, stunning eyes, flowing hair and the perfect figure...and she motions you to come closer with that sexy "I want you" look on her face. It is only when you get close enough to whiff her lovely scent that you realize...she has an adams apple. :o...:timeout:........:o

That, to me, is what SH5 is like...

And that, to me, is the deal-breaker.


:damn:

[kylania]

That, to me, is what SH5 is like...

And that, to me, is the deal-breaker.:damn:

Each bit of the tranny that is SH5 to you that you mentioned will be fixed with mods eventually, so at least you have that to look forward to while she hugs you... :DL Perhaps not the aircraft carrier CAP, but even that I'm pretty sure would be able to scripted.

[Coldcall]

<shudders> I still have awful memories of creating a bootdisk to get AOTD to play, and that's despite having a whopping 4MB of RAM installed.


Just on this, rather than reinvent the wheel, does anyone have the settings or whatever to get AOTD up and running?

I've been buying a few older (1990's) games from GOG.com and what I've liked is that they've integrated DOSBox, so it's simply a matter of d/l, install and play. No stuffing around. Wish they'd put up AOTD. I'd love to get AOTD working; it's prolly the only game I bought back in the 1990's that I still own!


I've been buying games from GOG as well. No DRM!!! :-)

[Coldcall]

To me, "arcadey" is describing numerous things about this title, some of which have nothing to do with it being targeted to the "casual gamer". There is nothing wrong with someone being a "casual gamer" per se, and I do very often enjoy such titles as CODWAW and CODMW2 as well as Oblivion and Dirt and X3 Terran Conflict...none of which could be even remotely considered as study-level simulations.

.....That, to me, is what SH5 is like...

And that, to me, is the deal-breaker.


:damn:

There's no doubt that some aspects have been made more gamey, and less simulation like. I for one, think the tonnage quotas are gamey and totally unrealistic buyt it still doesnt really dumb down the game, just makes it more tedious and annoying.

My point was that if it was supposed to be more arcadey or accessible to casual gamers then the design has failed to achieve it.

The first person RPG part of the game is actually less gamey than SH3/4 because on a real sub you dont have all controls at your finger tips in one panel right in front of your face wherever you may be on the sub. So i think the walking around giving orders to your crew face to face was a good idea. However i dont like the way the stats are done and how your crew get miraculous abilities, and that is somewhat gamey, but again its not arcadey enough to make it arcadey as a whole.

But nothing in SH5 is a deal breaker for me, other than the possibility that the AI is broken in the opart of the code which cant be mended by modders.

That for me would be the worst thing of all because as Neal rightly pointed out, no matter what is modded to the rest of the game, if the AI is in inheerntly broken then SH5 is severely limited going forward.

I also notice that the some of the Romanian developers frequent the site and i wish we could get a clear statement from someone that they will at least fix the AI so the modders have something decent to work with.

[alexradu89]

I don't know about you all but I for one actually CAN'T wait to play SH5 vanilla once we get the FINAL patch...:yeah:sadly it's going to take a long while apparently :dead: And of course I'm waiting for the mods, IF they're any good...but there probably won't ever be a better one than GWX >.>

[Coldcall]

I don't mind the changed UI much, but it's the mission goals and artificial (un)itelligence that gives it the arcade label for me, and I hate to say that as I want to like the game. I can't call it a sim for those reasons alone so I'm back to the Pacific Theater with RFB/RSRDC until things are changed for the most part. No disrespect for SH3/GWX but I like the fleet boats better.

I agree about the tonnage quotas being gamey, but the AI problem was clearly not meant to be. The AI is a bug, not a design choice in order to make the game arcadey.

[Coldcall]

I don't know about you all but I for one actually CAN'T wait to play SH5 vanilla once we get the FINAL patch...:yeah:sadly it's going to take a long while apparently :dead: And of course I'm waiting for the mods, IF they're any good...but there probably won't ever be a better one than GWX >.>

No you really dont want to play vanilla :-) Honestly, out of the box the game is in very poor state. But with a few mods it makes it playable.

[robbo180265]

"I also notice that the some of the Romanian developers frequent the site and i wish we could get a clear statement from someone that they will at least fix the AI so the modders have something decent to work with"

Some really good points made on this thread , all of which I agree with. The above however is the real "Deal Breaker" for me.

I find the complete lack of communication from either the devs or Ubisoft as a whole, frankly quite disturbing. Are we to believe that the game will be left in this state? If there is another patch on the horizon then why is no-one saying anything?

[Coldcall]

"I also notice that the some of the Romanian developers frequent the site and i wish we could get a clear statement from someone that they will at least fix the AI so the modders have something decent to work with"

Some really good points made on this thread , all of which I agree with. The above however is the real "Deal Breaker" for me.

I find the complete lack of communication from either the devs or Ubisoft as a whole, frankly quite disturbing. Are we to believe that the game will be left in this state? If there is another patch on the horizon then why is no-one saying anything?

I agree that bugs the most. I see these devs around defending their product which is great, but they seem to forget that most of us paid over good money for their work, and the AI as it stands is truly reprehensible.

I'd be satisfied with a promise that they will "do what they can" with the AI in a patch. But we havent even got that commitment from them.

As it stands right now, the only real losers in this from a contractual point of view are the folks who bought the game.

[Arclight]

And of course I'm waiting for the mods, IF they're any good...
Gee thanks, I can really tell you're trying to make friends.

[the_belgian]

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/royalairsoftguards/info/modelbouw/sparty.jpg

translation;
gamedeveloper ubisoft says sorry after messing up with the new copyprotection the company came up with.
the system requirs that users are permanently connected with an autentissety server.recently these servers where attacked,due to this manny users with a legal copy could not play the game.
dispite ubisoft's earlyer statements that this would be a verry stable service of theirs....

source(page 12 bottom right corner)
http://depersnew.republisher.modernm...maart_2010.pdf (http://depersnew.republisher.modernmedia.nl/1486651/De_Pers_maandag_29_maart_2010.pdf)

[thyro]

dispite ubisoft's earlyer statements that this would be a verry stable service of theirs....

source(page 12 bottom right corner)
http://depersnew.republisher.modernm...maart_2010.pdf (http://depersnew.republisher.modernmedia.nl/1486651/De_Pers_maandag_29_maart_2010.pdf)


Those damn nasty punk hackers that are always aiming at UBI...:har:

UBI's damn excuses to just carry on like it was nothing...

[Jimbuna]

I don't know about you all but I for one actually CAN'T wait to play SH5 vanilla once we get the FINAL patch...:yeah:sadly it's going to take a long while apparently :dead: And of course I'm waiting for the mods, IF they're any good...but there probably won't ever be a better one than GWX >.>

I think you'll find there's a fair mix.....the good the bad and the ugly.

I'm not quite sure who fits into whichever category though. :DL

[ReallyDedPoet]

And of course I'm waiting for the mods, IF they're any good...but there probably won't ever be a better one than GWX >.>

There are many great mods here already for 3, 4 and now 5. Folks put a lot of work into them :yep: Take some time and have a look.